I'm currently reading "The Illusion of Life", which is basically a big, expensive book about Disney animation, how it came to be, and why it's the best.
Ahh, how the mightly have fallen.
(Keep in mind that the book was originally published in 1981 - the year I was born.)
So: Thoughts? Opinions? Laments? Does this bode ill for the treasured family-animation genre? Or is it simple justice for a spate of unispired, second rate sequals? Can Disney make it in 3D? Now that Pixar is solo...
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Ohh man, I grew up on Disney cartoon movies. I really like the 3-D stuff, but there's always something about watching the Little Mermaid or Aladdin or the Lion King.
I feel like Disney's 2-D stuff was going downhill anyway, but maybe that's just me.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Well, all those recent flops can't take away the quality or magic of Disney's classic films. IMHO, 2D cel-based animation will always hold a simple charm that 3D can't... and it will take a brave new studio to try it (2D) again. (Although, I hear Nike founder Phil Knight and his new studio Lakia might be doing some interesting new things...maybe he'll give it a shot someday soon.)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Oh definately. I also think they're pushing the 3D a bit more than they can, with all the sequels and such. Shark Tale tried too hard, IMO.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Wow, that's something. It definately shows how much things have changed in just a few years...
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I think 2-D can compete with 3-D, IF it's done well.
With Disney lately, I don't think it is. What was their last good movie? Lilo & Stich?
However, that's storytelling, not the animation itself. I think a lot of Pixar's film could have done very well as 2-D, and that's because Pixar has some great stories, not just because of their animation (altho I like 3-D films as well).
I have no doubt that 2-D will eventually be made again, perhaps when 3-D gets so good that one can *really* not distinguish it from real life. Until then, I look forward to a lot of great Pixar films.
And Disney will always be around, even if they don't have any more theatrical releases. They've got a pretty solid grip on the kiddy market in things other than movies.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
The thing about 3-D is that more adult men will go see it than will go see a 2-D. My husband, at least, falls into that demographic. And when adult demographics are pushing the child entertainment market, you get the sort of edgy stuff in Shrek and Robots. I enjoyed the Shreks, but they had a couple of moments I could have lived without. I had no desire to see Robots. I'm less certain about Madagascar.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Japan is proving that some incredible stuff can still be done in 2D. There is, however, a complete lack of creativity at Disney, now, since it has become more about marketing than quality.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Madagascar was ok, but I definately noticed that there were groups of teenage guys there, which is not something I'd expect of a Disney movie, similar to what you were saying mothertree.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Wasn't Pixar going to be leaving Disney?
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Good point, Boris. Disney gettting out is in no way the death knell of 2D.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Ah, but notice I said "family-animation" - a few major releases from Japan have caught the N. AM family demographic - Howl's Moving Castle, Spirited Away,- but look at who distributed them.
I LOVE some Anime series (Cowboy Bebop, Last Exile, etc.) and agree that 2D (and 2D/3D hybrid - beautiful!) is alive and well in Anime, but I don't know if people here in the West will ever give Anime the same cumshaw they gave Disney-esque feature productions.
My question, basically, is this: Will there be another studio that attempts family-centric (not the pop-culture 3D mishmash that comes out of Dreamworks) animation? 2D cel-based, specifiaclly? Is Pixar our last hope? What happened to the group from Dreamworks that brought us Prince of Egypt?
Oh, and as far as I know, Pixar and Disney will be going their seperate ways after Cars. (Although I heard a rumor that they were back in negotiations again.)
And - mothertree, I totally agree. Shrek, Robots, etc. are waaaay to pop-culture/flash and dazzly written to appeal to families/children like Disney moveis do. Instead, they appeal to the Demographic of Eternal Movie Revenue Generators - the young(ish) Male. Or said Male with family/children. No offense, but our demographic (youngish males) drives the production budgets for a whole lot of crap. Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
And and - as Jhai has said - 2D can match and surpass 3D anyday - as long as Story is King.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Pixar is talking to Disney again now that they know Eisner is on the way out. There is a...decent chance that they will collaborate on a future project after Cars.
I can't wait for Emperor's New Groove 2: Kronk's New Groove.
Even though sequels in Disney are notoriusly horrible, well, usually anyway, I loved the first one. Lion King 1 1/2 was good, but Lion King 2 was horrible. I didn't mind Aladdin 2, but 3 was going way too far. Pocahontas, Beauty and the Beast, and Lady and the Tramp never should have had sequels.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I think 2-D can compete with 3-D, IF it's done well.
Frankly, I find 2D considerably more lovely than 3D, as I've yet to see a major CGI effect that didn't piss me off and jar me out of the action on some visceral level.
The reason 2D Disney films had problems had nothing to do with 2D, and everything to do with crappy stories, scripts, and acting. But as DreamWorks has proved, 3D makes it possible to turn out really cheap cartoons, and this makes it easier to make your margins.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
New Groove was great. Hadn't heard about the sequel yet.
Tom, I couldn't have said it better myself.
The question still remains, though: Who will revive the family-oriented, well-writted, 2D cel-based film?
I think one of the reasons I'm so obsessed with this is that I, like most people I know, talked often of how Disney animation was decaying slowly, with smug look-how-the-mighty-have-fallen attitude. But now that Disney has basically said "We're done with the traditional thing", reality hits like a cold stack of pancakes.
Somewhere, in the back of my mind, I was expecting Disney to recover from the slump (thourgh divine intervention, if need be!) and bring us good quality animation again - stuff I would take my future children to. Looks like that won't be happening, though.
What will become of this major chunk of our collective childhood that is suddenly empty? Is trendy-hip 3D and 2nd-tier sequels all that will remain in the 21st century?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:The question still remains, though: Who will revive the family-oriented, well-writted, 2D cel-based film?
I'm not sure anybody will, since I'm not sure that it is commercially viable to make well-written ones anymore.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:The question still remains, though: Who will revive the family-oriented, well-writted, 2D cel-based film?
Someone like yourself who sees the gap with the experience and drive to carry it off? This is... huge, but it's not the end.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
If this news means no more straight-to-video sequels, then HALLELUJAH!
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Ah, well.. the catch there is this "experience" you speak of. Ironically, my present goal is to become a 3D animator... and I know I lack the resolve and talent to do 2D animation at a produciton level. I'm such a hypocrite!
However, directing, funding, producing or otherwise helping bring back a classic Disney calibre cel-animated film would be something I'd love to do... and now that you mention it... (shuffles off to find long-term goal list...)
Way to see the brighter side of this Puppy. Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:The reason 2D Disney films had problems had nothing to do with 2D, and everything to do with crappy stories, scripts, and acting.
Am I the only one who wishes that animated films would go back to hiring talented voice actors for main roles instead of giving them all to big-time celebrities in an effort to get a cross-over audience?
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
*heartily agrees*
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
*Heartily seconds that*
I think Disney could make a comeback with the 2-D animation, but it may be awhile. After all, does anybody else remember the death knell that was "The Black Cauldron?" That movie shut down Disney's 2-D animations for a few years, but then Disney came out with their masterpiece "The Little Mermaid," and Disney was reborn. If Disney were to ride out the next few years, letting Dreamworks garbage get crappier and crappier, and then release another classic, another masterpiece, they would be back on top of their game.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I don't really think the environment is right at Disney now for them to be making any great films, 2D or otherwise. Accounting is King, Story is off shining shoes somewhere. If they ever decide to change their priorities, then sure, they still have some great talent working for them, but until then they'll just keep turning out bland, groupthought garbage.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
And hey, Wonder Dog, we're the same age! Have you checked out "The Animator's Survival Kit" by Richard Williams? It's like Cliffs Notes on crack for The Illusion of Life. Though I still didn't really GET it until my instructors spelled it all out for me.
"Oh, FORCE! I get it!" Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
quote:...Accounting is King, Story is off shining shoes somewhere...
Yah, that pretty much sums up what's wrong in the world.
Zeugma: We're the same age? How can that be?! You're so much cooler than I! (Cool = Older?)
Yah, I have a copy of The Animator's Survival Kit, and I think it's a whole ton better that The Illusion of Life. (Although, to be fair, Illusion of Life doesn't purport to be a animation text - just a book on the Glory of Disney Animation.) I haven't really gotten into it yet... (Stupid self-motivated eduction... ... like any of my profs would want to teach us something that has application the the REAL WORLD.)
As I've said many times before, Zeugma: I envy you SO much! BTW, Who do you do for work while you're not being Mentored? I noticed you get to model...
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
So the last 2D feature full length movie they made (that actually got into the theatres) is Brother Bear?
I like the music on that movie.. but couldn't they go out with more of a bang? They should do one last animated movie... With a good plot.
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
PS. Shark Tale and Madagascar were both made by Dreamworks... not Disney.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Yah... Brother Bear was thier last Theatre release (to my knowledge)...we're not accusing Disney of producing Shark Tale and Madagascar. We are saying, however, that both studios (Dreamworks and Disney) have been producing a lot of garbage, although for different reasons.
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
I believe their last 2D theater release was "Home on the Range."
quote: We are saying, however, that both studios (Dreamworks and Disney) have been producing a lot of garbage, although for different reasons.
Amen.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Wonder Dog, I'm working for the guy who does the Mars Rover computer animations. And, uh, actually, in a very distant sense, Disney, since they're the ones producing the film we're working on.
Last night Dan took us to dinner and gave us each cool plaques! I can't believe I lucked into this job, who would have guessed someone would be doing something cool in Ithaca, of all places? Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Is that Dan Maas?
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
Home on the RAnge!? ACCK! That's even worse... not that I've seen it. It looks so bad that I don't think I want to waste my time watching that movie.
Sorry I accused anyone of saying Shark Tale and Madagascar was Disney... I guess I didn't read it well enough.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yeah, small world, huh? Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Lol, kojabu, I just saw your post in the textbook thread, I guess it's a REALLY small world, eh? Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I've seen some of the stuff he did (thanks to Prof Maas showing us in Psych 101), pretty neat.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Hey, when I took Psych 101, Dan gave the lecture himself while Prof Maas was away. Had no idea I'd be working for him 6 years later. I think that I wanted to be a historian or something at the time. Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Haha that's funny. I think when I took it his other son was taking the class. I wonder if Maas made him buy Power Sleep...
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
And to put this sort of back on track, there should be an Invader Zim movie.
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Though I still didn't really GET it until my instructors spelled it all out for me. ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
... like any of my profs would want to teach us something that has application the the REAL WORLD.)![[Smile]](smile.gif)