When commas are used to separate a list of things do you usuually use the last comma?
Compare:
"For dinner, the Girl Scouts ate steak, onions and ice cream."
"For dinner, the Girl Scouts ate steak, onions, and ice cream."
According to my CliffsNotes Grammar guide:
"Use commas to separate items in a series. Although some editors feel that it is acceptable to omit the final comma in a series--journalists and business writers frequently do--it is safer not to."
Personally, I like using the last comma because I think it helps make sentences clearer. But I know some people who are pretty adamant about never using the last serial comma.
What is your preference?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I prefer not to.
I have launched a comma austerity program, however, because one of the people who edits my work on some projects is a real stickler.
Posted by ? (Member # 2319) on :
I don't use the comma so I won't have to type as much.
? Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I like to use the last comma. Rules change all the time, I think not using the last comma is an old rule that is slowly changing.
Like the difference between who and whom is slowly eroding, where who is becoming acceptable as whom. That annoys me, because it took me forever to learn the difference.
-Katarain
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
My last post has a comma splice.
Oops.
-Katarain
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I was always taught to use the last comma so I always do.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I much prefer to use the last comma. I hate the way it looks if I don't.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I always use the last comma.
That's how I was learned.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Thanks for the response guys!
There is no right or wrong answer. Except I like it better when people take my side. Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
I tend to use the last comma. If it isn't used, the last two items in a series look to me like they are grouped.
Like "Eggs, bread, and cheese" becomes "Eggs, bread and cheese".
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
That final comma is called the serial comma. The Associated Press guide and most other journalistic style guides recommend against it; the Chicago Manual of Style and most other non-journalistic authorities recommend that it be used.
In other words, if you're writing a newspaper article, omit it. If you're writing a novel, use it.
Some sentences are clearer with it, and some sentences are clearer without it. Wikipedia has pretty good examples of both at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma .
Personally, I'm a fan, but I can put up with it being omitted. I did, however, find myself banging my head against the wall upon finding a sentence with the following punctuation in a document I was editing:
"Her favorite colors are red, blue, and yellow, and her favorite animals are cows, dogs and horses."
So far as I know, there is no parallel debate on whether one should refrain from using the serial semi-colon when dividing a list with that punctuation mark. I'd be really interested in learning about any style guide that recommends against it, though.
[ July 30, 2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: ambyr ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I almost always use it, but sometimes it doesn't seem to fit, and then I don't. But in general, I think most lists are clearer with it.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
When I teach that rule to my students, I tell them that it is recognized both ways but I always use it. It is not something that is tested on my state's standardized test (not that that actually means anything).
I think the harder rule is that no comma is needed for a conjunction that joins an independant clause to a dependant one, but one is needed before a conjuction in a compound sentence. One kid challenged me this year with the idea that it would be easier to remember to ONLY put a comma before a conjunction in a compound sentence and not anywhere else. I get where he was coming from but I told him that his genius self could remember all the rules. haha
I googled and came up with this interesting website: linky Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
From the link:
"The only authorities who advocate omitting the final comma are newspaper style guides (which wish to save column space) and some English writers (who waffle on the rule)."
That's very interesting. Thanks!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I always use it (or intend to use it ).
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I always use it. I can distinctly remember making the decision way back in third grade that it was ambiguous without it.
<—grammar geek
Katarain: I don't see a comma splice in that post.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I prefer clarity, and if it isn't there, well, see Mr. Funny's post. And Jon Boy's. So yes, I use it.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
No, thank you. I think that the extra comma is just that.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote: "Use commas to separate items in a series. Although some editors feel that it is acceptable to omit the final comma in a series--journalists and business writers frequently do--it is safer not to." (emphasis mine)
I always figured that the final comma was optional, so I use it or not, as the mood strikes me. I just love the freedom of deciding to toss in optional commas or leave them out.
But I hadn't realized that there was a safety issue involved. Gosh, if only one life is saved by having sufficient commas, well, it is certainly worth the expense.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I use serial commas, and am slightly annoyed when I read something where they are omitted.
If you really want to get my goat, be inconsistent about their usage. I'm in the process of editing/retyping something for work that uses them sporadically. It's making me nuts.
Pick one option or the other, and stick with it!
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I used to always use it. I have an unhealthy obsession with commas, though, so lately I've been omitting the last one.
I'll probably go back to using it. I've found, as many people here have alread said, that omitting it emphasizes the __ and __ as being more closely connected than the other items on a list.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
The example the Chicago Manual of Style provides is a sentence about "my parents, Mother Teresa and the Pope." This, at least, is one case where the serial comma is absolutely essential. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I agre with the two previous posts. The "and" joins the two last items in a confusing way unless they are split by a comma. However, I probably don't actually write that way in reality although I never really thought about it before.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: When commas are used to separate a list of things do you usuually use the last comma?
No way. I never use it, unless it's necessary to avoid ambiguity , depding upon context. Maybe I got that from Hebrew punctuation-style, but I don't put in the last comma.
<--- Son of a well-educated English teacher, student of a well-educated English teacher; personal recommendation from them.
But I definitely agree with Rivka's bold-letters. Choose one, and remain consistent; otherwie you'll driv the reader crazy - and you've got to count my type of people as readers!
JH
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
So you should choose one and remain consistent, unless you have to break your consistency to avoid ambiguity.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:I use it or not, as the mood strikes me
But I always keep internal consistency within a document. I just decide before I begin writing whether there will be a final comma in the serial or if it will get omitted throughout the entire document.
So calm down, rivka. I would never be inconsistent and get your goat. Even if I really really wanted your goat.
Which I don't.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: So you should choose one and remain consistent, unless you have to break your consistency to avoid ambiguity.
Makes perfect sense to me.
To me it makes perfect sense too. So am I finally eligible to rule over the galaxy with you?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Mmmm . . . no.
Go to university and get a degree in linguistics. Then we'll talk. Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
,yes.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:
quote:I use it or not, as the mood strikes me
But I always keep internal consistency within a document. I just decide before I begin writing whether there will be a final comma in the serial or if it will get omitted throughout the entire document.
I'm cool with that, then.
quote: So calm down, rivka. I would never be inconsistent and get your goat. Even if I really really wanted your goat.
Which I don't.
I'm perfectly calm. *twitch*
*suspicious* What's wrong with my goat?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:What's wrong with my goat?
Well, I'm not a veterinarian, so I am probably not qualified to diagnose. What symptoms is your goat having?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Aberforth Dumbledore happened to it.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Jon Boy is my favorite grammar geek.
Yes, use it -- please! And let's ALL decide to use it. Leave out the commas around interrupters and even create a couple of run-ons when necessary to create voice; just split the series! Meanwhile, can we please decide to eliminate the apostrophe in all plurals that aren't possessive? I'm referring of course to CDs and DVDs.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Apostrophes never existed in plurals such as "CDs" and "DVDs". Writing "CD's" or "DVD's" is the same as writing "Two pizza's for the price of one".
quote: Jon Boy is my favorite grammar geek.
Yeah, well, he has too-many-years' more education than I in grammar.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Wait! But Jonneh Boy is - and probably will always remain - no match for me in Hebrew / Semitic grammar. And he can't be selective about the languages used... So I have my right to rule over the galaxy. Ha!
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I think the best solution might be to alternate between using it and not using it, which won't damage the meaning of the sentence and will have the added bonus of annoying any grammar nazis that might read it.... Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
as ambyr said, it depends on what style you are using.
I was taught to use the last comma during grammar class in high school.
But then when I worked for the newspaper, we were forbidden from using the last comma, because it wasn't AP style (which is the style most newspapers adhere to).
So it depends on the application and what style you are needing to follow.
FG
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: Apostrophes never existed in plurals such as "CDs" and "DVDs".
Not true. They exist all the time, even though they shouldn't.
And yes, it's true that you know Semitic grammar more than I do. I think I'll blame this on the fact that I don't know any Semitic languages.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Apostrophes are the hardest punctuation to teach especially since they are so misused in the real world. For instance, several years ago The Grinch movie was released billed as Dr. Suess' The Grinch. Movie link This irritated me to no end! It should be Dr. Suess's movie because he is one person! Here are the apostrophe rules I found on the website I linked to in my last post.
quote:Forming possession on words that end in s" is much less confusing if you sound out the word. The rule you are trying to remember concerns forming possession on *plural* nouns — not words ending in "s" generally.
Though it ends in "s," "James" is singular: "James is a great guy." To indicate possession, you would *say*, "Fido is Jamziz dog." You would write, therefore, "James's."
Say you live next door to a family surnamed James. When describing the lot of them, you'd form a plural with "es": the Jameses. You would use the "es" because the singular ends in "s," and we couldn't pronounce the double-s: the Jamess. You would *say*, "We are dining with the Jamziz (Jameses) tonight."
When describing a family possession, you'd *say*, "That is the Jamziz car," but you would write, "Jameses'." In this case, you would not need the extra "s." It does not get pronounced. You do not say,"Jamziziz." The apostrophe alone suffices to indicate possession.
And you goat just has a cold. Feed him lots of chicken soup, have him take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Apostrophes are the hardest punctuation to teach especially since they are so misused in the real world. For instance, several years ago The Grinch movie was released billed as Dr. Suess' The Grinch. Movie link This irritated me to no end! It should be Dr. Suess's movie because he is one person!
This is another one of those rules with variations. Some people use only an apostrophe for names that end in s, while others use the apostrophe-s. The reason for this is that not everybody pronounces a second s (or z, really) on the end of possessive names.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
So it is an accepted variation then? It still seems wrong to me.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I usually add the apostrophe-s for names like Wes (Wes's). But for names where several s or z sounds are bunched together -- "Jesus" for example -- I tend to just add the apostrophe without the additional s.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: So it is an accepted variation then? It still seems wrong to me.
Yes, it is. And it still seems wrong to me, too.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yes, but it seems right to me. Lois', not Lois's (*shudder*). Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I don't usually use it, although if it strikes me as being too ambiguous I'll toss one in. My preferred method of comma usage is, of course, to dip a brush in ink and flick it over the page.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Tech writing class prof suggested that using a bulleted list would be clearer and more likely to be read correctly than a sentence with several items separated by commas . . .
If I want the information obscured, I bury it in the middle of the paragraph using a sentence format.
If I want information paid attention to, I bullet it. Bold it. Highlight it. Color it. Underline it. And send it three times at least.
And even then a whole lot depends on the literacy level and/or "give a damn" principle.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Hi Shan
Long time
No See
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: If I want information paid attention to, I bullet it. Bold it. Highlight it. Color it. Underline it. And send it three times at least.
*twitch*
*twitchtwitch*
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I do my best to avoid the possessive with names that end in S or Z. My boss has noticed on occasion that I've restructured sentences in order to eliminate the need for an apostrophe. Not that he's ever complained... Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Beren.
*pat pats Jon Boy*
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
It's acceptable to write "Bill Gates' ideology is that of a swine's", even though it should be "Bill Gates's ideology is that of a swine's" and if you're going to do it properly you'll write an "s" at the end. Lacking the "s" at the end is wrong but acceptable.
"We had dinner with the Gateses tonight, what a shame", but "we had Dinner over at the Gateses' tonight, what a shame". However, "Jesus' followers are known as his disciples".
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I always use the last comma, because if I was speaking the sentence, I would pause there.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I never do. I just dislike it and so do the editors of The Times of London.
Posted by Starr R (Member # 8361) on :
This will be a long post, since I'm replying to many comments at once. It seems more efficient this way.
I love reading threads like this one. It's nice to know I'm not alone in the way I feel about grammar. One of my favorite books is Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation Lynne Truss. I crack up every time I read it. Here's a link (sorry I can't make the fancy ones):
I agree that using the last comma adds clarity, reducing the chance that the last two items in a series look like they are grouped.
quote:That final comma is called the serial comma.
I've heard it called the Oxford comma, too. I may have read that in "Eats, Shoots & Leaves."
quote:can we please decide to eliminate the apostrophe in all plurals that aren't possessive? I'm referring of course to CDs and DVDs.
Yes! I vote for that! No wonder I enjoy reading here so much--so many of you write the same way I do. (Well, I know I'm not as smart as many of the posters here; I refer to the grammar used.)
As for Dr. Suess' The Grinch: In ""Eats, Shoots..." she also talks about how "Two Weeks Notice" drove her crazy. I was semi-relieved when I saw that, because I was thinking it was just ME that found it annoying. And when we went to DisneyWorld awhile back, I was *appalled* to see a store with this sign:
The Writers Corner
OK, who painted that?! Shouldn't sign painters be literate? :-p
*Here ends my rambling*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Jonathan, it is NOT "wrong but acceptable." It is one of two ways of writing it that are correct.
I won't dis your way if you don't dis mine. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starr R: Here's a link (sorry I can't make the fancy ones):
Oh! Oh! I know how!
You make a clicky on "Full Reply Form". The very first clicky button is "URL". Make a clicky on "URL" and paste in your web location in the little poppy-up box. You click "OK" in the little poppy-up box and it goes away, only to be replaced with another poppy-up box. You put whatever little name you want to call you link in that little poppy-up box, and click the "OK".
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
Beren.