quote:

---

It feels a dishonest to me to start something and involve someone's feelings when there isn't the slightest chance of a middle to follow the beginning.

---

You know, people do convert. In either direction.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Kat it seems like you are missing the point see my italics.

quote:

---

The view I see presented is that smart, beautiful, independent LDS girls over 30 will not be able to date within the church, and that isn't true - not in my experience, and not in the experience of many of the girls I know.

---

quote:

---

Taylor sat through a Relief Society lesson titled “Preparing for an Eternal Marriage and Family.” Several married women decided to share stories of friends who didn’t marry until very late. One by one, these women tearfully tried to boost the spirits of the single women in attendance by talking about girlfriends who persevered until they were finally blessed with marriage at the advanced age of 28. And 31. Taylor couldn’t believe what she was hearing. She squirmed and waited for it to end, but the stories kept coming. Finally, she couldn’t keep quiet any longer. “Thirty-one is not late,” she yelled, exasperated. “Eighty-two is late.”

---

That sounds an awful lot like you even if you are a bit younger... though I'm not impressed by the woman's language in the interview.


AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Tom: Yeah, I suppose he could convert to LDS. I don't want him doing it for me, though. I mean, I absolutely adore converts, and while Flirt to Convert does work out sometimes (my mother's case, for instance), I don't like the idea at all. I don't want that pressure. I have also seen SO MUCH dishonesty abounding in situations like that that that the entire idea is distasteful to me.

And while I know you're teasing/not teasing, I do love my religion. I'm not saying it isn't possible for me to fall so hard for someone that I'd reject my religion (I guess anything's possible), but I wouldn't thank the guy who catalyzed that. I really believe it. I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.

quote:

---

That sounds an awful lot like you even if you are a bit younger... though I'm not impressed by the woman's language in the interview.

---

Actually yeah - it does sound like me - and many (most) of my friends here in Dallas. I'm not that much younger than this girl. That's why I don't agree with her - we do date. Not every weekend, but a reasonable amount. I dated more at 25 than I ever did at 20.

[ August 01, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BannaOj:
You yourself said that 27 is old in the LDS church... not to mention that Prophet's quotation about any unmarried male that is 27 is "a menace to society"

---

quote:

---

I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.

---

quote:

---

1063: On 06/06/99, Mike asked: Did Brigham Young ever say that an unmarried 27-year-old male Church member is a "menace to society"? I have heard this from various members, but I have never been able to find a reference for it.

In 1963, BYU President Ernest L. Wilkinson said:

"As to the single men, I need merely to repeat the admonition attributed to Brigham Young, "Every man not married and over twenty-five is a menace to the community." I asked Dr. Lyman Tyler yesterday if he would document this for me, but he said he had been trying to document it for years; he had given up, so you will have to accept it either on faith, or as apocryphal." (Commencement Exercises May 31, 1963 BYU Speeches of the Year, p.1)

Like many other Latter-day Saints, I know that I have read the quote attributed to President Young, and like many others, I am presently unable to document it. I remember it made a strong impression on my mind because I was 27 and single at that point in my life.

---

quote:

---

Even insignificant events at the family ward can remind Taylor that something is missing from her life. During one sacrament meeting when the air conditioning was running full blast, Taylor watched a shivering woman ask her husband for his jacket. He put it around her, and she snuggled up next to him and fell asleep, a perfect image of marital bliss.

“I saw them sitting there with their little temple marriage, and who the **** cares if she fell asleep in church, because she’s got a husband who’s worthy,” says Taylor. “I got really, really bitter. The fact is, when I’m sitting in church and I’m freezing from the air conditioning, I can’t ask my husband for his coat. I have to sit through this situation every Sunday. I have to remember to bring a sweater, or I have to learn how to deal with the cold.”

---

quote:

---

"I have to remember to bring a sweater, or I have to learn how to deal with the cold."

---

quote:

---

I think if I walked away from it now I'd lose all respect for myself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
Ouch. Jon Boy, did you know what it was before you did it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
I think I'm uncomfortable criticizing her based on how she is portrayed in this article. Clearly it didn't do a very good job presenting the life of an LDS single - I don't trust it to do a good job presenting her.

---

You could very well be right. I look at that quote that afr posted, and I see a very petty, jealous person who has a lot of growing up to do. Maybe that's partly true and there's a lot more to her than that. I don't know.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Okay. I think...I think you were probably indulged when you still needed to grow up. I think it's only fair to give her the same room. Not everyone tackles all of life's journeys at the same time.

[ August 02, 2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by JLM (Member # 7800) on :
 
The impression I got from Jenna Taylor is that she may be smart, she may have a testimony, but she has the emotional maturity of a 15 year-old.

I used to cuss, eat espresso flavored ice cream, bring Mountain Dew and Jolt to seminary and institute and so on. Why? To shock other people, to prove my individuality, to show I wasn't goint to conform. Somehow the girl I was dating saw past these flaws and married me anyway.

Having been married for several years with 3 primary age children, I have learned that my previous attitudes were silly and immature. Eternal marriage isn't about being an individual, but about becomming one with your spouse. Both my wife and I have sacrificed parts of ourselves, but in return have grown from the other.

Perhaps the reason Taylor has not been able to find a worthy husband it that she shows an unwillingness to compromise or sacrifice in a marriage relationship. Perhaps is she spent less time trying to test her dates through borderline inappropriate behavior, she should seek men who challange her to become a better person by giving up her worldly treasures (such as coffee ice cream.)

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

---

I think I'm uncomfortable criticizing her based on how she is portrayed in this article. Clearly it didn't do a very good job presenting the life of an LDS single - I don't trust it to do a good job presenting her.

---

I think it did a pretty good job of illustrating the life of many LDS singles. YMMV, but I left the church at around 27 (in that I stopped attending). My experience as a single returned-missionary jived with the article, where it is applicable to a single man in the church. I just question the reason for publishing it in a non-LDS paper. I mean, what's the point?

Granted, my experience also involved dealing with my own sexuality, which also doesn't jive with the church teachings, but that doesn't entirely negate my impressions.

On a side note, I wonder what her reasons were for being 99.9 percent sure the 5 or 6 single guys in her ward were all gay.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
They haven't asked her out.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
I remember seeing one of the guys I grew up with in my ward, sitting several rows in front of me with his wife. They hadn't been married long. He was leaning forward, and she was casually running her fingers over his back as they listened to the speaker.

I remember being very envious of that. I was probably 21 at the time. Now, ten years later, if I were still single, I would have a hard time not thinking a bitter thought about that. Regardless of my religious affiliation, I would be hungry for that kind of companionship and affirmation.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
They haven't asked her out.

---

 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
afr: That's probably part of why you're married now.
 

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Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
 
How sad for someone to expose their utter selfishness in front of everyone. To be so completely focused on what you yourself lack that you resent other people for possessing it - it says far more about her than about others, though of course the article is oblivious to what is being inadvertently confessed.

We all carry our personal heartbreaks, frustrations, and exceptions around with us. For instance, after our baby died, it was impossible for me to sit through the Primary Christmas program without crying, and it's still very hard, because I look up there and see all those beautiful children that are exactly the age my little Erin Louisa would have been. But I don't mention it to anyone and try to keep it to myself, because I would be ashamed of myself if I ever made other people feel bad for enjoying their children! It's a time of joy, and I will not impose my private grief on them. And now, eight a a half years later, I'm able to get through these events much more calmly.

The point is this: Nobody fits into the pattern EXACTLY. But that does not mean there's something wrong with the pattern. OR with you! It just means that we aspire to good things, and achieve all those we can, and we should celebrate for those who achieve what we have not been able to, as we would hope they would celebrate with us for the good things we have achieved.

And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?

Dating is a lousy way to meet a mate anyway. Most of the best "late" marriages I've seen have come from people getting to know each other through working together in their callings. (That's one of the things I love about doing theatre in the Church ... you can meet people and WORK with them.)

However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.

The internet is helping ... some. I've known several LDS internet marriages that have worked out splendidly - because the people were honest with each other and had no ridiculous expectations. I think of one couple: The man was, to be candid, kind of ugly and dull - but sweet and decent and hardworking, a good provider and a word-keeper and KIND. The woman was of a stout body type and that simply wasn't going to change, but she was ebullient and smart and warm and loving and a joy to be around - adding to his life the spark that in his shyness he would never have had. As a couple they are delightful company, and they are both a gift to the church through their good service. And their babies are beautiful.

But I also know of the woman who moved across the country to marry the "good Mormon" she met on the internet, only to find he was an exploiter, not a provider, and that his Mormonness was only skin deep - in fact, he was already flirting with other women online at the time of the wedding. Needless to say, THAT one didn't last long - though the ward stepped in and provided this woman with the help she needed to get free of the parasite she had married, and she remains there now as a happy, productive member of a good, welcoming ward.

The irony of our culture-shaped "beauty search" (and it goes both ways) is that by the time we're sixty, we're all old and decrepit-looking <grin> and most of us have put on weight, so why oh why did it matter so much when we were younger what people LOOKED like?
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Well, I really think that anyone who argues that you can't be an intelligent, educated woman in the LDS church, or can't get married in the temple, doesn't know church history. I think there is a lot of folk doctrine that a good Mormon woman is barefoot and pregnant by the time she's 21, and it's utter bunk.

Here's my experience. I was working as a lawyer and attending a singles branch when I was 27. There were a lot of guys who made stupid comments like "I wouldn't ever marry a lawyer, I want a woman who puts her family first." (actual quote) I didn't get a whole lot of dates. I earned about twice as much as your average guy in the branch and had been in school for more years than many of them had been alive.

But I was a fully fellowshipped, active, devout member of the church. It didn't matter what little boys barely off their missions said about me. I taught the Gospel Essentials class to the new converts and I went to the temple. I firmly believed then and still believe now that if there wasn't any man willing to date a woman with my education and qualifications, that was his failing, not mine. The opinions of a bunch of guys unwilling to date me do not constitute church doctrine

Fast forward a bit. I met a guy who was also highly educated and we got along rather well. We had a lot on common. Another much younger girl in the congregation thought he was pretty wonderful too and mounted a desperate campaign to marry him. She wanted a knight in shining armor. I just thought he was a great guy. She wanted him to buy her a house and take care of her every need. I had a house already, and a car, and a 401k, and actually, rather a lot more in assets than he did. The competition between me and her was nonexistant. I married the guy in the temple and have been with him ever since. Now I work part time, make very good money at it, and have found a balance of home and work that I think I can sustain, more or less, through child rearing. I also have a career to go back to once the kids are out of the house.

So it actually didn't pay off to be the "good" Mormon girl who didn't have an education and who's main goal in life was to be married, although I think this girl's a good person and otherwise hope she gets everything she wants in life. Meanwhile, one of my nearest and dearest friends is over 30, unmarried, and BRILLIANT. She's also been in several Relief Society presidencies, is a temple worker, and this is totally selfish of me, but I'm glad I don't have to compete with her husband for her time right now. I stay over at her place when I'm in the city late, she stays over at mine when she wants a break from her PhD studies. We read all the same books and talk on the phone every few days. I don't wish that she was anything other than who she is, and I do wish that some guy as amazing and wonderful as she is would come into her life. But if he doesn't, that's HIS failing, not hers. The church is a better organization for people like her, and a worse one for people who don't recognize her worth.

[ August 01, 2005, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: OlavMah ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Well, yeah, that was a big motivation for me. And I followed that experience with years of klutzy gaffes and total screwups as I learned to deal with it. I wasn't very comfortable in the dating scene.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 
I agree with AFR- that was a painful read. The girl has some legitimate gripes about things which are an annoying part of Mormon culture. However, based on the limited vision of her given by the article, I could tell her why LDS guys don't want to date her:
She is irreverent about things most LDS hold to be sacred. She is clearly a rebel without a cause. When dating everyone generally tries to put their best foot forward and with time expose the idiosyncracies each possesses. This girl, however, appears to try to put her worst face on to see if the guy will keep coming back.

If she really does want to get married she needs to change her strategy.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

---

If she really does want to get married she needs to change her strategy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orson Scott Card:
And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?

---

quote:

---

The internet is helping ... some. I've known several LDS internet marriages that have worked out splendidly - because the people were honest with each other and had no ridiculous expectations.

---

<—has a happy LDS internet marriage thanks to Hatrack
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
OlavM and OSC:

Thanks. I appreciate your willingness to share your personal examples and fully agree with your conclusions and wishes.

And TomD: Yes they do -- and thank God for that. :-)
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
<--- Is lucky to be married to Jon Boy.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 

quote:

---

However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.

---

quote:

---

For me to decide against it, I'd have to explain away my previous experiences and present testimony. Given enough motivation and intent I could probably do it, but I think I'd have to lie to myself to do it. Either that, or conclude that I was a fool before. Neither of those options is particularly self-respect-inducing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zalmoxis:
JB: Speaking of LDS special pressures -- when am I going to have some little Jatraquero nieces and nephews around to indoctinate in the ways of LDS cultural snobbery?

---

Good things come to those who wait.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I agree.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Everyone's a misfit in the society to which they belong. I've never had a close friend that was a normal, typical person, though I see such people from a distance all the time.

Re: dating outside the faith, been there done that. I wasn't interested in marrying outside my faith and was clear about that up front. It ended badly, but, that isn't to say it was a worthless endeavor.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Well, few endeavors are worthless if you learn something.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

quote:

---

My cultural experience in this regard has been extraordinarily different from the Mormon one, I think, because if I wanted to get married at 22, or even 23 or 24, I would be *extremely* worried about my family's perception of me.

---

Kasie, me too. My family was extremely worried when Wes and I married - I was 20. The idea of getting married before you finished college was very upsetting to them.

No one has any doubts now, not when we will be celebrating our 14th anniversary in a few months, but I certainly had to put up with people urging me to wait when I announced my engagement.

I was certain, though. He was certain. And we believed God had brought us together at that time in our lives, and that the only way to really be together the way we wanted to be was to marry. I didn't see the appeal to merely dating the man I knew I would spend the rest of my life with for three years until I graduated from college, I wanted to wake up next to him every morning.

My parents were convinced I'd never finish college. As it turns out, I didn't then, we moved, married, and then I got pregnant much earlier than we planned so I didn't go back to school then. But I'm in school now. And I can say I'm glad I waited and went back when I was older and really could focus on my education and appreciate my opportunities.

The thing is, regardless of what your culture thinks or even your family, you have to make the decisions that are right for you.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

quote:

---

This kind of extended adolescence was part of what drove Taylor’s friend Rachel Morrissey to a family ward long before the Black Sunday in March. Morrissey, also 33, began attending a family ward three years earlier, after a bad breakup with a man in the Langley ward. That, and the seemingly never-ending pity she received for not being married, distracted her from her primary reason for attending church: learning about the gospel. “I hated that part of it,” she says. “You’d get hugs from the bishop who’d say, ‘These men don’t know what they’re missing.’ They don’t know how else to feel. You’re a leftover, and they don’t know why. So you end up with a different kind of pressure, from both sides, to be flawless. You have to be thin and pretty and smart, and you’re not allowed to be sad that you’re not with someone, because that makes you feel like you messed up, but you’re not allowed to be happy about not being with someone, either, because that’s wrong. It’s a hard church to be single in.”

---

quote:

---

Taylor usually avoids singles activities.

---

quote:

---

“I was one of, if not the most, physically attractive women there,” she says with uncharacteristic vanity. “I was really indignant. I think I’m a pretty good catch.”

---

So she never shows up to activities, and expects to be snatched up at the first one she attends? I don't know if it's Mormon guys, but a lot of guys need to see you a few times, yea even speak to you and become acquainted through a mutual friend or calling in the church before they'll ask you out. That could be seen as a flaw, but it's the way it is. Ward activities seldom have the 'get her number and hook up' atmosphere that you might find in say, a bar.

And her vanity doesn't seem to be that uncharacteristic. But that's just me.

(I'm not over 30 yet either, but I'm close enough to feel most of the zing.)
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 
Belle's comments on marrying within one's religion constitute very good advice, in my opinion.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Olav, the more a misfit you are, the harder it is. :shrug:
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Agreed. (with Jacare and Belle) You guys post too fast, I was writing the above post before OSC and OlavMah posted. Great points all around.

I often feel that I'm intimidating to guys in my ward...maybe too intimidating to approach. I'm 6' tall, a returned missionary with a Master's degree and a job. I'm also devout, temple worthy, and I have a 'public' calling. (I'm the ward choir director.) Everyone in my ward knows who I am, but I get the feeling that sometimes guys don't want to get to know me. I also have a tendency to turn everything around so it's my fault . I don't resort to the "Guys are just dorks because they don't ask me out" excuse unless I'm really depressed and/or PMSing.

My other problem though is that during these 3 years of finishing my degrees, I haven't made any efforts to 'put myself out there' so to speak. Most of the time I'm too exhausted to go to the activities and some of the time I'm too intimidated by how many people I don't know to get up the gumption and go. If you met me in the ward, you'd never know that I am terribly insecure about forming relationships there. I don't expect to be married right now because of these factors, but I've also felt like this is ok with God. I fully trust His timing on this issue and I've made goals to do my part a little better as well.

The important thing for me right now though is to just go to church and be there. I'm lucky, I have a pretty good single's ward. It is rather too 'beautiful' in my opinion (not as many average-looking people as you'd expect) but the people are sweet and we've got great leadership. Like that girl I quoted above, I'd be really worried if I started being so preoccupied about being single that I stopped getting anything out of going to church.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

---

I've seen Christians marry Jews and get divorced less than two years later.

---

That said, I've seen Christians marry Christians and get divorced less than two years later. The trick is to care deeply about the same things your partner cares deeply about -- be it God or your dogs or stamp collecting.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Of course, and the fact that they were different religions was certainly not the only factor is the divorce.

But I would submit that religion is of more importance than whether or not you're both dog people or enjoy the same hobbies.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I think the marrying within your religion thing is true if religion is very important to you. If your church is one where it's important that couples/families do things together, and you would feel that you were missing something if your spouse didn't attend church with you, for instance, then yes, you should marry someone of your same religion. Also, if you plan on having children, and it's important to you to bring them up in your faith, then that is undoubtedly easier if you marry someone of the same faith.

For me, my belief in God is a fact of my life, but my social activities are not centered around my church. I do not intend to have children. If I marry, it is important to me that my hypothetical spouse have similar moral values to me, but it is not necessary that he be of my faith.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
I think, really, that couples simply need to rank the importance of religion in their lives in a similar manner. For me, it's never played much of a role at all, and for the most part, I'm looking to marry someone in a similar situation -- be they Christian, Jew, or other faith. I would have trouble marrying both a devout Christian or a devout Jew, simply because it's not of extreme importance to me.

That said, I do agree with Belle -- I think it would be much harder, if I were a devout Christian, to marry a devout someone of another faith -- or someone of little faith.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
I'd like to discuss the interfaith marriage topic, but I think it's a little too close to my current situation (interfaith marriage, rabbi AND minister, in less than a week).

Maybe in a year or two, I'll have a better perspective, one way or another. Though I agree that it certainly is tougher... Especially on issues around (hypothetical) children.

-Bok
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
I really don't believe that anyone's not a misfit. It can be even harder if you're not an obvious misfit. Learning how you don't fit is part of getting to know yourself.

The girl's quote about her physical attractiveness is actually sort of funny and more than a little sad. It doesn't matter, in the long run. It really doesn't. The people you like to date may be good looking (for some of you) but the person you marry, honestly, is someone you'd enjoy staring at even if they were horribly disfigured in a car accident on the way home from the wedding.

BTW, I don't think the guys in my old branch were dorks for not asking me out. But if any of them would have been otherwise interested and let my career get in the way, then yeah, they were dorks. But I don't know of anyone for whom that was specifically the case. The guy who would "never date a lawyer" was not, I think, otherwise madly in love with me
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

quote:

---

The point is this: Nobody fits into the pattern EXACTLY. But that does not mean there's something wrong with the pattern. OR with you! It just means that we aspire to good things, and achieve all those we can, and we should celebrate for those who achieve what we have not been able to, as we would hope they would celebrate with us for the good things we have achieved.

---

quote:

---

And Jon Boy, when it comes to marriage, you have hit the nail on the head. There are many reasons why a person might be unmarried; but I wish I had a buck for all the guys (and even a few women) who rail on and on about how awful the members of the opposite sex are and THAT'S why they're not married - which almost always leads me to think, Good heavens, don't you realize that YOU are the one who is too awful and judgmental for anyone in their right mind to marry?

---

quote:

---

However, it IS "late" to marry, when you're in your late twenties or early thirties. The pool of available mates of a similar age is drastically reduced, and it's very hard to find an available person who is not wacko.

---

Sometimes reading OSC is like eating a delicious pie that has a tack hidden in it somewhere.

Is 'not wacko' really the best phrase that could be used? Don't you think, say, 'freakishly abnormal' or 'one step up from a circus geek' might be a better way to put it?

Am I getting worked up over what was, hopefully, something meant as a tongue in cheek statement?
 

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Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
 
Most married couples I know didn't marry until they were in their late twenties.

My parents didn't get married until they were both 36. (Granted, they're both 'wackos' )
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Storm: In the Mormon world, most single people over the age of 30 are a little wacko. At least, that's my experience. Most Mormons are married by that age, so the majority of singles over 30 are at least a little weird. I'm pretty sure OSC wasn't trying to slam everyone over the age of 27 who's not married.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't think your experience means much, because you have very limited experience.

[ August 02, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I definitely think Kat's a wacko, through and through.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't think that's funny, because I don't think you're really joking.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
What? I was trying to point out that Jonathon's statement was potentially hurtful, especially to you. If anyone, I was trying to make fun of him. I do not think you are a wacko.
 

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
And if all "old" singles are wackos, we need to worry about why Sheri Dew was called to the Relief Society general presidency.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm sorry then, Brinestone.

It was hurtful. It's like finding out that everyone is being nice to you in person and secretly doing that twirling motion as soon as you leave the room. There are enough idiots in the real world. There shouldn't be here.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Katie: I didn't mean it that way, and I hope you realize that. I've been in singles wards. I've had single friends in their late twenties. I haven't been in that position myself, but I've seen plenty of people who were. Tell me that the pickings aren't pretty slim once you get close to thirty. Tell me that most of the single LDS guys your age aren't guys that you'd mind dating.

My post may have been unintentionally hurtful, but yours was intentionally hurtful.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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I've had single friends in their late twenties.

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quote:

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And I never meant to imply that you were one of the alleged weirdos.

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I don't think anyone realizes how big of a pile of crap the word 'alleged' really is. It's not alleged. So many people really believe that those singles wards full of age 30+ are full of weirdos, and that those who couldn't 'manage' to get married before they were relegated to one of those wards have something wrong with them. To many for it to be 'alleged.' That's another reason why it's touchy I guess.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Great, right after Katie's make up post, mine looks incredibly snarky. Please don't take it that way, I'm just talking out some thoughts, not directed at you personally. (Jon Boy)


 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
The average age? I'm not sure, but I think they're all my age or older. But the other friends I was referencing earlier were mostly my roommates: one got married at 27, one just got married at 32, I think, and one is probably 28 now and still single. Then there were other single guys I knew who were pushing 30.

Don't worry—I didn't take your post personally, and I hope you didn't take mine personally.

Katie: Yes, we're still friends. I'm not the kind to hold grudges, especially when it was started by a misunderstanding. Especially when that misunderstanding consisted of me putting my foot in my mouth.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
*wonders why she opened the thread in the first place*

*backs away, slowly*
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Perhaps I should weigh in with a Patented KoM Attack On Religion (tm) just so everyone can flame me and be friends again? But no, seriously. In an era where the average age at marriage is around 28 (talking about Europe here, I understand Americans start a bit earlier) referring to unmarried people over thirty, a good 25% of the population, as 'wacko' is just not called for. Within the Mormon community is something else again, but then - no, I was going to restrain my snarkiness.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
KoM and Stormy, your comments make complete sense. I hope OSC realizes (and I think he does, giving him the benefit of the doubt as I am wont to do) that his comment *only* applies to cultures where people generally marry in their early twenties.

Obviously this doesn't result in *all* the singles above 30 being wackos, but since the wackos are less likely to be married, it isn't unreasonable to assume there will be a higher percentage of them IN THAT CULTURE.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I have to say I don't share that girl's experience at all. I'm single at 47, converted to LDS at age 42, and haven't felt that spirit or that pressure at all in any of my wards. I do avoid single's conferences, though, because it seems like they're too focused in that direction. I would love to be married to the right person, of course, and intend to marry someday, but I'm never made to feel I'm less important or less capable because I'm not married yet.

It might be that the girl in the article perhaps has a low sense of self worth, and so tends to see everything as though it were about her, and critical of her. She seemed to take everything as a slight to herself. Why should she feel that way? I think most people are doing their best to be kind to everyone.

The church historically, also, has always been about women being educated, accomplished, strong, and equal. Women had the vote in Utah, of course, long before women in the U.S. could vote. Brigham Young said "We have sisters here who, if they had the privilege of studying, would make just as good mathematicians or accountants as any man; and we think they ought to have the privilege to study these branches of knowledge that they may develop the powers with which they are endowed. We believe that women are useful not only to sweep houses, wash dishes, make beds, and raise babies, but that they should stand behind the counter, study law or physic (medicine), or become good book-keepers and be able to do the business in any counting house, and thus to enlarge their sphere of usefulness for the benefit of society at large." (DBY, 216-17) Pretty radical for 1859!

Though the church teaches that women's most important calling is wife and mother, it's equally true that men's most important calling is husband and father. I was surprised to see so many stay at home moms in the church when I first joined, and yet they all seem to have master's degrees or higher. They are more educated than I. It's not at all that women are sidelined. As for feeding the elders, I just always meet them at a restaurant. There's no problem at all about that. The rules are deliberately set way on the side of caution, so that there can't be even an appearance or suspicion of anything being wrong ever. I feel really safe and protected because of the rules being that way. It gives me a feeling of security and happiness. And I think the elders enjoy eating out from time to time, too.

I love the kids at sacrament meeting. One of the things I love most about the church is all the kids. They are so lively and clever and bright. Quite often it brings tears to my eyes how tenderly and sweetly the children play together and the older children look after the younger. There really is a wonderful spirit in most LDS families that I've seen. Maybe that's because we have so many lessons and talks on how parents should love and guide children, how children should respect and obey and love parents, how we can resolve conflict in the home, and how important is love at home, and family home evenings. Also we know that we are all greatly beloved children of a living God, that we have a divine nature, and that we are all of us struggling to learn and grow and allow that divine nature to express itself. So that helps us to be more patient and gentle with each other and forgive each other, perhaps.

It sounds like that girl sees church as mainly a social group, and doesn't feel like she's one of the "popular" ones. Maybe if she focused on church more as a forum for doing God's work, studying, learning, and perfecting herself, helping others to grow stronger and feel the spirit, proclaiming the gospel to interested people, and building the Crystal City, she would be a lot happier there. It seems like anytime she sees evidence that people around her are happy, she lets it add to her bitterness. That's just sad.

I guess I feel an understanding for anyone who feels they don't socially fit in at their ward, however, the social part is not of prime importance. It's through the gospel that we're all made one.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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but since the wackos are less likely to be married

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Now THIS I do NOT believe. To put it bluntly, weird and unattractive people get married all the time.

If someone just wants to be married at any cost, it's not that hard. In my experience, people with low self-esteem marry faster.

[ August 02, 2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Edit: directed at beverly, illustrating cultural differences::

Right. When you consider that I married at 23 and in the months leading up to the wedding was told by many concerned family members and friends that I was 'too young' for and 'rushing into' marriage (after a two-year engagement?).

Though I agree that it is probably best to marry in relative youth for many reasons, not everyone fits that particular cookie-cutter, also for a number of reasons.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Being a single LDS male soon to be 36 in a month, and having grown up in the church in Utah of all places, I feel like I should say something in this thread.

And, quite frankly, I really don’t have anything to say other than this:

I now live on the eastern shore of Maryland and the last singles outing I went on consisted of myself and three other women all between the ages of 55 and 80.

I’m not trying to say anything, I just sayin’.


 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Kat, we may be talking about different "wackos". By wackos I mean the people that no one wants to date *at all*. And they do seem to have a hard time getting married.

In the movies, the wackos find each other and are happy. But in real life, most wackos want someone "above" them on the ladder and therefore are always going after people out-of-their-league. They have unrealistic expectations, and as a result, they don't find anyone.

That's what I've observed, anyway.

Edit: So I guess by wackos, I mean specifically "wackos with unrealistic expectations".
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Olivet, your culture sounds a lot like Kasie's, and I assume that is what most of USA/Europe's culture is like.

Mormons are just weird with marriage, if by "weird" we mean "different than the average".
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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But in real life, most wackos want someone "above" them on the ladder and therefore are always going after people out-of-their-league.

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quote:

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Which makes me wonder if the working defintion of "wacko" here is "doesn't want to get married at any cost".

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Not quite. More like, "not willing to pay the cost in order to be married".

People are good with self-deception. I'm sure the people who actually are this way would hate to be told that it's their fault, they don't really want to be married.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Sure to my joking definition?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I read it again, and decided I disagree.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I think Beverly is going for the same thing that I was originally going for, even if she's still not quite getting her point across.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
What, exactly, were you going for? Lots of weirdos there? More weirdos than in the general LDS population?

The only difference between the odd people in the singles wards and the odd people in the married wards is that the odd people in the singles wards are pickier.

[ August 02, 2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
If it helps any, kat, I think you're more than a little wacko.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
beverly "above them on the ladder"...? I think that's an unfortunate expression and idea. Are you talking about money, looks, education, intelligence, social standing, and things like that? Do those things matter very much to most people in the church?

I dunno, it seems to me that we're all children of God. We're divine beings. It doesn't seem like a good way to go about picking your eternal partner, your other self, by giving a lot of weight to things that aren't of eternal importance, does it to you?
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I submit that 'wackos' is not a useful term in this context. There are just too many reasons why someone might still be single at any age to try and buttonhole them into the category of wacko. Trying to buttress the use of the word by pointing to people who really are 'wackos' doesn't seem to me to be very productive and will just lead to further offense.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Stormy, I think you're right.

People stay single for a variety of reasons. People are just too complicated to dismiss so many people with such a negative epithet.

[ August 02, 2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

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More weirdos than in the general LDS population?

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quote:

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Lots of weirdos there?

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quote:

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Seriously - haven't you looked around at sacrament meeting and wonder how on earth some of those people ever got married?

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quote:

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Seriously - haven't you looked around at sacrament meeting and wonder how on earth some of those people ever got married?

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quote:

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Originally posted by beverly:
AK, I wish more people thought in those terms. But after listening to the woes of my single friends, it just doesn't seem to work that way.

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I think with some people it actually does.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
AK, if only there were more of them.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I really have no idea how many of them there are. I'm sure there are lots more stories about creepy 30+ guys than there are real creepy 30+ guys.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
To bev: Maybe there are and you don't hear about it.

JB: That's what I mean, though - THAT's what is actually hard about going to church. Because you meet people who automatically assume you fit whatever horror story they heard that made them glad to be married.

It's like me assuming until proven otherwise that all married people are as unhappy as I have known some of them to be.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Kinda like there are more references to green jello than actual occurance of green jello?
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
"...downhill jumping to conclusions..."

It's funny because it's true.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Porter: Exactly!

Katie: I'm sorry. If it helps, the stereotype I've encountered most (which I don't believe is accurate) is that the guys are creepy freshmen-stalkers and that the girls are returned missionaries who intimidate the creeps.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by beverly:
AK, if only there were more of them.

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However many there are, it's enough.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Sounds like you are happy, AK, and for that I am glad. ^_^
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Wait...

I was NOT willing to settle for less than a man I could share myself with completely, without fear of ridicule or misunderstanding.

I was NOT willing to settle for less than a man I was physically attracted to.

I was NOT willing to settle for less than a man who was at least as intelligent as I was.

I was NOt willing to settle for a man who was not at least as socially savvy as I was.(Not a very high water mark there, but...)

I was NOT willing to settle for a man who was openly dissatisfied with any aspect of my physical person (in this case, I mean little boobies )

I also wanted a man who could cook, smelled nice, took care with his personal grooming and was musically talented (in this case, played piano and sang opera).

I managed to find this man, despite 'unreasoanble expectations' and before I finished my degree.

So, high standards work out well for some of us. But, since we're not LDS, I suppose it's a moot point.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Thanks! But it's sad that everyone isn't happy, isn't it? I wish I could help somehow.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
For me it is not "just" a stereotype. It was one of my friends who was older, never been in a dating relationship, and all excited about the RMs that were fresh off their missions, hoping something might happen with them.

I just saw so many unrealistic expectations and ships passing in the night.

But it is harder in general when there are less people in your culture that are single at all. Less people for you to be compatable with.

That is why I think the internet can actually be a great way to meet someone--provided you are careful. It can bring people together that wouldn't otherwise encounter each other.

It's like how gays often have a hard time finding someone they are really compatable with. Firstly, there aren't that high a percentage of gays in the population. Secondly, there is enough cultural stigma, that it is hard telling who is receptive to same sex attraction and who isn't. I undestand that gay bars are a great place to find one-night-stands, but the people there don't tend to be looking for anything long-term. Even gay chatrooms seem to have a similar stigma.

When there are less fish in the sea to begin with, it is harder to find the fish for you.

When your pool extends to a non-Mormon culture where people tend to get married later in life anyway, the selection is bigger. Not to mention there are far more people out there who aren't Mormon than are.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Well, I don't think it's just a stereotype either. There are real people like that. But, as with all stereotypes, there are exaggerations about their frequency. One of those creepy guys lived upstairs from me for a while, though he did get married. I really got the impression that the girl had just given up and settled, which made me sad.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I think stereotypes are wrong.

Except for when they're right.
 

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Posted by t-lee (Member # 1326) on :
 
34 years old
never been married
engaged twice
discussed marriage with 2 others
one sister never married 46
4 brothers all married before age 23 (wives younger than 21)
17 nieces and nephews (2 married, one great-niece and 2 on the way)

I just wanted to share my credentials. One of my ex-fiance's was not Mormon, one was. The other two people I mentioned I met on my mission.
By the time I was 26 I was the only girl in my graduating class who had not been married at least once. At my fifteen year class reunion I was the only "straight" member of our class who had not been married.

When I moved here (Oklahoma) from Austin, Texas I was 29. I chose to not attend the Singles Ward (I haven't attended one since I was 23, at first because they weren't available where I was, then because I felt I had "outgrown" them.) Everyone was nice but the average age of the girls was about 20 and I didn't feel comfortable. Also I didn't want the stigma of being "dihonourably discharged" (as a fellow single friend put it) from the Singles ward when I turned 31.

I'm in the Primary Presidency in my Ward. (So many more oportunities to serve in a Family Ward.)

Here are some of my experiences.

Back when I was young in the eyes of the Church I went with some "older" friends to a Single Adult Activity. The FIRST question I was asked was, "How many times have you been married?" Like divorce is some kind of merit badge.

I went with a friend to another activity. There were about 3 women in their 30's, 25 other women and 5 men. Let me describe them for you. One was in his 30's and managed to graduate from BYU without getting married (highly suspicious:)). One was in his 60's and bragging about remarrying his third wife in a few weeks. One of them was clearly homeless. One was a little to eager to get everyone's phone number. The last started confessing sins during a workshop and let out a huge fart as I was walking past him to leave the building.

I also have 2 very good male friends who didn't marry until their 30's. Perfectly normal guys, or as normal as anyone gets.

My first ex-fiance I met when I was 19 and dated of and on (when he could overcome the evils of my "Mormonness" until I was 26 and he finally decided that I was indeed going to Hell.

My most recent was 30 when we met and lived with his parents. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's not a "wacko" it's just economic. I was wrong. Finally he broke up with me because his "mommy" convinced him that chipped toenail polish was an unpardonable sin in any woman. He has recenly been engaged and unengaged again.

Here are my marriage criteria.
I would like to be less than the third wife.
I would like to be with in 15 years of my spouse in age.
I would like to not have step-children that are so old that I could not have physically given birth to them myself.
General compatibility issues. (Similar tastes and hobbies, and intelligence level, etc.)


Oh and I would like them to have a strong testimony of the church. I could have given up the church 14 years ago to get married, but my faith and trust in the Lord prevented me. If I wouldn't settle for someone that I really loved, why should I settle for someone who has little or no commitment to the church. Even if they can take me to the Temple.

There are 13 women in my ward who are pregnant. I hate it when they complain in front of me. What I wouldn't give to have a happy family?
I hope by the time my fifth niece gets married I won't feel the pang of jealousy that I feel.

When I visit home, I sit in Relief Society and here them welcome "all the girls and their new husbands". When I moved to a new ward, the Reilief Society president introduced the new people like this, "We'd like to welcome Sister A. her husband (isn't he cute) and 2 children. And Sister B. She has a family of 5. And. . . and this is Sister M. she's a teacher." I knew exactly what social level I was at. I've sat through Sunday School lessons where people in a marriage were only "1/2" people, the implication being that I was some half person running around and God could not be pleased with me. I've had a Stake President say "This scripture means, you aren't worth very much if you aren't married." No wonder most single people my age quit going to church a long time ago.

I try very hard to not feel bitter and not get angry when people say, "Oh, you'll get married someday." Heck, I know that. And really marriage hunting doesn't look so bad in the Millenium.

I appreciate most my non-single friends who treat me like a

From what was presented in the article, this woman seems to only want to be a Mormon so she can shock other Mormons.
Stupid/ignorant people do not determine my attitude about the church. Do I like being grouped in the "30 to dead" category? No, but my testimony isn't much if I let ridiculous unthinking people disturb it. All last year I taught Primary Children about Eternal Families. Sometimes it was hard, but it strengthened my resolve to do it right or not do it at all.

It is unfortunate and offensive that this woman was taken as an example of Single Adults. As far as I'm concerned, she is only "single".
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Kasie, my background is the same as yours - emphasis on education above all else, independence and a career.

My mum used to place pressure on me *not* to get married, even when I was in high school and not really contemplating it. It used to really bug me - she'd be decrying mothers who pressure their daughters into a life of early marriage and housekeeping but at the same time making it clear to me that was absolutely not an option for me - so doing exactly the same thing, albeit to a different end goal.

(My parents have since divorced. They were having huge problems at the time, and not speaking about them. I think that coloured her view somewhat.)

Anyhow, I got engaged at 22 and married at 23. Mum freaked out at the engagement, and we had a hurtful, hurtful argument one night. I was in tears, Tony was the angriest I have ever seen him, my little brother was in tears defending me and Mum couldn't see how she was behaving.

(And, at the time the divorce was going through - as I said, some issues there).

By the wedding Mum was happier. 6 months on, I've graduated law, got first class honours and marriage hasn't impacted on my personal goals one bit - except given me a partner to offer unconditional support.

And Mum is ok with the situation. I still don't think it's the path she would have chosen for me, but I think she's realised it's my decision and I can look after myself. I'm happy and she's happy about that.
 

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Posted by Nitasmile (Member # 8275) on :
 
" Storm: In the Mormon world, most single people over the age of 30 are a little wacko. At least, that's my experience. Most Mormons are married by that age, so the majority of singles over 30 are at least a little weird."

Glad you all made up over that comment.

Hopefully I am not missing too much since I just skimmed this thread. You know, it is so funny, I am a single 36 yo LDS and this morning almost called into a local radio station to defend the value and worth of single men! However, I couldn't recall the call-in number and besides, I was driving. Why? Well, I live in metro DC. This morning, on DC 107.3, they were joking w/one of the female hosts, who just broke up w/her boyfriend who just moved back to Boston and was in his late 30s. Anyway, so the male hosts of the AM radio show start joking w/her about what type (ie divorced, etc) her new man should be. He was basically saying she would have a hard time finding a new love. Basically, the theory of one of the hosts was suggesting that single men in their late 30s are "either divorced, damaged goods or gay". Isn't that horribly hurtful? Yikes. Then, they took listener comments of people who married in their 30s, to get their story- sadly the few call-ins supported that view.

My view was going to be that this isn't always the case, some have not met the right person or are holding out to remain true to their values, etc. Anyway, I did call my home number to remind myself to write a critical email to this radio station. I do plan to do this.

I just think it is so sad that those who are married feel they can judge the hearts, intents and worth of single folks, male or female and throw out the type of terms that this radio host did this AM.

Anyway, here is an awesome quote that I remember from my days at BYU, when I lived in the dorms the neighbor across the hall decorated her door w/it:

"I have not yet met the man who deserves to be as happy as I could make him." (For guys, just insert woman to apply this to your situation!)

I have sometimes wondered how those who are currently married would feel if they had never married. How would they want to be treated by those in the Church as well as society at large? I'll go ahead and be quiet now.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
I don't agree that wackoness has anything to do with when you get married, or that older singles are more likely to be wacko. There are several things OSC posted that I don't personally agree with, but there we are.

I don't think dating is a bad way to meet a spouse and I think most singles could benefit quite a bit from dating and developing some romantic social skills. The formality can also be a plus. Sometimes in an attempt to be casual, people try and have it both ways, the emotional intimacy of a relationship with no commitment.

In my experience though, singlehood is just a matter of where life takes you, for the most part. Sometimes it's because a person was anti-marriage, but a LOT of people like that end up married anyway. Sometimes it's because the person isn't the greatest spouse material, but a LOT of people like that end up getting married anyway. Sometimes its because they were immature punks in their early 20s, and they mature rather nicely. A lot of bad marriages break up by a person's late 20s and there are quite a few decent people on their second go around in life. I agree that there are fewer singles around when you're that age, but I'm not at all convinced that they're a less desirable set.

Is Elder Oaks wife a wacko? She was what... 52 when she got married for the first time? To an apostle, no less.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Beverly said something on this thread that gels with someone Porter said in a thread about Magic Street on the other side -- namely, that a marriage without love, between two people willing to work at being married, is better than no marriage at all.

I don't believe this. I was in fact pretty incredulous. But if you accept that Porter does believe this, and infer that Beverly also believes this to some degree, then her comment -- that most "older" people who aren't yet married simply don't want to be married badly enough -- makes a great deal of sense.

Consider this: I want to eat. I go to the mall, and none of the stores in the Food Court is serving anything I'm interested in eating; there's a pizza place, a burger joint, a Taco Bell and three separate -- and awful -- stir-fry restaurants. While there, I could complain about being ravenously hungry, but it makes little sense if you assume that the purpose of eating is to assuage hunger; after all, I could assuage my hunger at any time by simply eating somewhere I didn't want to eat and trying hard to like it.

But I know I won't starve. I might not need to eat right now. So I don't eat somewhere I don't want to eat, because I don't think I should have to try to like my food and am not yet desperate enough to resort to that approach.

I think Singles' Wards are the same way. Some people there are truly starving, and would take anything -- and sometimes do, occasionally suffering severe indigestion as a result. Some people just aren't that hungry.

And the problem is exacerbated by the Mormon belief that marriage, like food, is essential to life. If you die unmarried and childless, Mormon culture (if not doctrine) teaches that you haven't done your job; you've practically wasted your life. So there's an enormous pressure to learn to like sprouts and eggplant and other possibly squicky foods, because the alternative is running the risk that your favorite Italian place is closed.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
You're right to distinguish Mormon culture from doctrine.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Beverly said something on this thread that gels with someone Porter said in a thread about Magic Street on the other side -- namely, that a marriage without love, between two people willing to work at being married, is better than no marriage at all.

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quote:

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Sometimes in an attempt to be casual, people try and have it both ways, the emotional intimacy of a relationship with no commitment.

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quote:

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But it seems like there's a special kind of weirdo—and again, maybe this is more of a Utah or BYU thing—that is really unmarriageable. And as you move into older age brackets, they appear in higher concentrations. I'm talking about the creepy thirty-year-old guys who are hanging around in BYU singles wards trying to pick up on naive freshmen girls because no one else will go out with them.

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I'd just like to say that seedy bars across the country are full of creepy older guys preying on pretty young girls. It's definitely not a uniquely Mormon phenomenon...
 

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Posted by CT (Member # 8342) on :
 
Nitasmile, welcome to Hatrack.

quote:

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quote:

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"I have to remember to bring a sweater, or I have to learn how to deal with the cold."

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I suspect this is usually true. It's part of being grown up.

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quote:

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Well, even Malcolm X was willing to completely change his life when he was convinced otherwise. However, I haven't chosen this lightly. For me to decide against it, I'd have to explain away my previous experiences and present testimony. Given enough motivation and intent I could probably do it, but I think I'd have to lie to myself to do it. Either that, or conclude that I was a fool before. Neither of those options is particularly self-respect-inducing.

---

quote:

---

I can't keep up with all the things I should've already learned from my mistakes!

---

quote:

---

that most "older" people who aren't yet married simply don't want to be married badly enough -- makes a great deal of sense.

---

quote:

---

namely, that a marriage without love, between two people willing to work at being married, is better than no marriage at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*blink* Quid, isn't Fahim still a Muslim? I'm wondering whether it is in fact more acceptable in Mormon culture to be married to a non-Mormon than to not be married at all. Do you find that the comments and stares have substantially reduced?

---

Yes, Fahim is still Muslim. And if I were living in North America, I'd probably still get all the comments and stares. But I'm not. I'm living in Sri Lanka where the Christian population is only 7% of the country, and out of 20 some million people, only about 400 of them, possibly less, are active LDS.

Here, we have many members who are married to Hindus, Buddhists, other Christians (mostly Catholic or Methodist), or Muslim. There simply are not enough members here for everyone to marry in the church.

However, when Americans come to visit (most of the foreigners we see in church are American, so it's not a reflection of the attitudes of Americans versus the rest of the world, but more so of the people I have actually encountered), I do get some comments. The most notable was, "I'm so sorry," as the woman pats my arm. I felt like knocking her head off. Like I'm so desperate to get married that I would stoop so low . . . Whatever.

I fully expect that, when/if I go back to the west, I'll likely wind up with a lot of comments and looks. To many, it would be better for me to never marry at all than to marry outside of the church. To my family, it's unfortunate that I'm not a Christian to begin with, but marrying a Muslim is reprehensible. Pfft! There are always those who disapprove of any lifestyle that is not what they see as ideal.

No, the comments and stares I get here are because we've been married for two years and haven't started popping out babies. That annoys me. Our reproductive status is no one's business, and I've given stern lectures to that effect when women feel my stomach because they want to know whether or not I'm pregnant, all the while still firmly gripping the offending arm. Some women have been "kind" enough to tell me that they're praying for me to give birth to twins by Christmas. Others ask us if we're trying. What, are we having sex?

Whatever. People are dumb. It's a great motto, seriously. Give it a try. People are dumb.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

---

Oh dear.

The LDS singles scene sounds about as bad as the Jewish singles scene.

---

quote:

---

I recently got rejected after a second date, because the woman decided I was not wacko, and therefore must be hiding something (Six Feet Under-style). This article kept reminding me of that. Arg.

---

quote:

---

"I'm so sorry," as the woman pats my arm. I felt like knocking her head off...

---

Props to you, quid, for having the self-control not to knock that broad's head off. Had I been there, I would not have had such self-control.

Somewhat related tangent: What's the general consensus on the nature of dating? I've come to agree with the sentiment that dating in N'Am culture is basically a form of formalized deception, akin to advertising. We worry about putting our "best" foot forward, making a great impression, whatever... like we expect the other person to take us at face value and then stop digging.
When I was courting my wife, I knew I could marry her and live happily with her for eternity after we passed through some harrowing and stressful experiences together.
(example: I had to take her on a 5 hour trip to get an ultrasound - not for what you think it was for - and she has a really small bladder. She drank a litre of water an hour before the appointment, as per doctor's orders, but by the time we got there she had been in such pain from holding it that she was crying and screaming for me to let her out just so she could go pee. We look back and laugh about it now, but at the time it was rough. It was after coming through that, still loving each other and sincerely apologizing to each other, then I knew for sure she'd be a great wife.)

Seeing someone you're considering for marriage deal with difficulty and stress is a far better indicator of desirability than fashion, manners, humor, or social status.
 

---

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
It's been my experience that single people who desperately wish they were married usually *do* get married and then they become equally desperate about their married lives. Perhaps they become desperate to have children, then their children are born and they are disappointed in them and they become desperate for their children to have all the honors and accolades that other people's children seem to have, and so on. Or their spouse doesn't live up to their expectations and they become desperately unhappy for that reason.

There are plenty of people, though, to whom *who you are* matters more than anything. People who don't have an agenda, and aren't checking off little boxes to see if you live up to their qualifications. Who aren't evaluating each other like horses they're thinking of purchasing, and who don't have a preset path in their minds for you to follow. Instead they're there to be a friend and sincerely enjoy your company. They expect you to make your own choices and realize that you might not make the same choices they would choose for you, but that your choices are your own to make, and not theirs. Among people like this, there's no need for desperation. Everything happens in its own right time. It's in LDS doctrines, too, "Look forward with a perfect brightness of hope."

Who would want to marry someone for whom one was a conquest and not a person? An achievement, a blue ribbon of some sort to be acquired? We are each of unimaginable value for our own selves, for who we are. Anyone who loves you for reasons that have to do with looks, money, or status, is loving something very contingent and temporary. All such things change in this life.

For instance, look at President Kennedy. He was rich, he married a beautiful well-connected wife, he even was elected President, and then he was cut down in his prime in an instant. Another example is Kurt Cobain. He attained everything he could have wanted, fame, the love of millions, money, achievement, he made wonderful music, but in the end it was all empty for him, and he took his own life. People who place their hopes, desires, and faith in unimportant things like money, status, or appearance, are always unhappy, because those things bring no nourishment to the real self, and they can be gone in an eyeblink.

There are plenty of people who don't care about those things, but instead care more about who you are. It seems like to find people like that, though, it's helpful first to learn to be like that yourself. "Come unto me, ye who labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." There's no need for striving and desperation.

[ August 02, 2005, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
 

---

Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Can't help myself, I'm sure you guys already know the quote.

quote:

---

The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation
-Thoreau

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tatiana:
It's been my experience that single people who desperately wish they were married usually *do* get married and then they become equally desperate about their married lives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quidscribis:
No, the comments and stares I get here are because we've been married for two years and haven't started popping out babies. That annoys me. Our reproductive status is no one's business, and I've given stern lectures to that effect when women feel my stomach because they want to know whether or not I'm pregnant, all the while still firmly gripping the offending arm. Some women have been "kind" enough to tell me that they're praying for me to give birth to twins by Christmas. Others ask us if we're trying. What, are we having sex?

---

quote:

---

What's the general consensus on the nature of dating? I've come to agree with the sentiment that dating in N'Am culture is basically a form of formalized deception, akin to advertising. We worry about putting our "best" foot forward, making a great impression, whatever... like we expect the other person to take us at face value and then stop digging.

---

quote:

---

I was having a conversation with one of my friends the other day about "trying" to get pregnant, and we both laughed at the euphemism.

---

Maybe I'm missing something, but that doesn't seem like an euphemism to me. It's not an euphemism for sex, because they aren't asking "are you having sex", because most people having sex are doing so with some sort of protection. They are asking if you are having sex in such a way to intentionally produce a pregnancy. Asking if you are trying to get pregnant seems to be an exceptionally clear and straightforward way of asking that.
 

---

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Silly Porter. All sex leads to pregnancy.
 

---

Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Yes, just like all driving leads to death in a car accident.
 

---

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
What a charming analogy.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Charming or not, it's a pretty accurate analogy.
 

---

Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I thought so.
 

---

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
A euphemism is "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant"; I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."
 

---

Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
And yet, people drive anyways without any intention of dying in a car accident. This does not mean all of those people aren't prepared, however much they'd prefer it not happen, for death in a car accident (say, by having life insurance and a will).
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:

quote:

---

that most "older" people who aren't yet married simply don't want to be married badly enough -- makes a great deal of sense.

---

I never commented on whether I thought this was right or wrong. But it is true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fugu13:
And yet, people drive anyways without any intention of dying in a car accident. This does not mean all of those people aren't prepared, however much they'd prefer it not happen, for death in a car accident (say, by having life insurance and a will).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."

---

quote:

---

That women and men in their 30s 40s and 50s aren't married just because they don't want it badly enough?

---

See the analogy I compared it to in the same post. Yes I do think it is true. I also likened it to selling one's soul.
 

---

Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
That reproductive nosiness isn't just a Mormon thing.

Ron and I were engaged for TWO YEARS (first year, he had to finish school - I was a year ahead of him and got my degree in three years. He got his degree in three years, too, but he was still behind me. Then he spent a year looking for steady work. Finally, I just said, "Heck, I have a staedy job. Let's just do this thang!"). It was two years of "When are you getting married?" and "Are you SURE you want to do this?"

Then, AT THE WEDDING RECEPTION, people started asking when we were going to have kids. After six months of being grilled at family gatherings, Ron started answering with a terse "2010". It shut them up, nevermind that I'd be 41 by then.

After four years of marriage, it changed from "When?" to "Can you?"

People can be so ... you know.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

A euphemism is "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant"; I would consider "trying to get pregnant" to be an inoffensive expression for "having sex without birth control with the intent of getting pregnant."

---

quote:

---

mph, no form of birth control is foolproof, with the exception of removal of ovaries and testicles. Yup, all sex has the potential to lead to pregnancy.

---

quote:

---

But even when you consider that euphemism, how is it any of their business?

---

quote:

---

But even when you consider that euphemism, how is it any of their business?

---

It is so not their business. I cannot fathom a circumstance where it is appropriate for an acquaintance to say any such thing.

When it is close friends and family, it is still a very personal, invasive question. But when you are close to someone, it is more "OK" to ask personal, invasive questions. That doesn't necessarily make it OK though.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Thanks Katharina

Am I the only person who's tempted, every time someone asks me when I'll have kids, to look really uncomfortable and say, "Well, my husband and I... have this problem...." and then watch the horrified looks that would result? I've never actually done it, mostly because I don't want to start even worse rumors about my poor husband (and they would be FALSE rumors, okay guys?), but I just think that most people don't seem to think about what they're asking. Every time you ask someone when they're having kids, you're implicitly asking them if they're having sex, if they're able to have sex, if they are not on some medication that would make pregnancy very inadvisable, etc. etc. etc. Aren't these nosy people worried at all that they might be talking to a poor young woman in an unhappy marriage with a husband who struggles with impotence and who has been sleeping on the couch all last week and... yeah okay, basic point I'm making, I just don't wanna know!
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:

quote:

---

That women and men in their 30s 40s and 50s aren't married just because they don't want it badly enough?

---

See the analogy I compared it to in the same post. Yes I do think it is true. I also likened it to selling one's soul.

---

quote:

---

It's been my experience that single people who desperately wish they were married usually *do* get married and then they become equally desperate about their married lives. Perhaps they become desperate to have children, then their children are born and they are disappointed in them and they become desperate for their children to have all the honors and accolades that other people's children seem to have, and so on. Or their spouse doesn't live up to their expectations and they become desperately unhappy for that reason.

---

You have no idea how badly I wish I could copy and paste that into an e-mail to my son. But he would be greatly offended, so I won't.

But I really see him as just such a person as you describe. He is not a "happy" person in general, and he desparately wants to get married (he doesn't even have a girlfriend at this point). I see it as something that he thinks will "make him happy and make all life better" kind of deal.

But I know, as an adult, that if he is looking for happiness outside of himself, then he won't find it in marriage -- because that isn't the way it works. And he would do just like you say -- then think a child would make him happy, or whatever. -- It would always be something just beyond his reach.


 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I think it's impossible to quantify how badly someone wants to get married. It's all just speculation.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
My speculation is 1.9 times bigger than your speculation.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Woah, now let's not get into THAT...speaking of euphamisms.
 

---

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

But I really see him as just such a person as you describe. He is not a "happy" person in general, and he desparately wants to get married (he doesn't even have a girlfriend at this point). I see it as something that he thinks will "make him happy and make all life better" kind of deal.

---

quote:

---

Woah, now let's not get into THAT...speaking of euphamisms. [Wink]

---

quote:

---

I think a lot of older single folks want it just as badly as the folks who are willing to sell their soul for it, they may just be smarter, have a stronger testimony about God's plan for them, or comfortable enough with themselves NOT to sell their souls (among many other things). To say that these kind of people don't want it every bit as badly as the soul-sellers isn't accurate (IMO).

---

I agree with this. I wasn't the first to say that they "just don't want it badly enough". That was Kat's statement, I just "played" with it, partly tongue-in-cheek because it does get across entirely the *wrong* idea, IMO.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Tatiana:

You rock.

OlavMah:

You're not the only one (warning: graphic Mormon-related content, whining, genitilia mentions, and some serious snarkiness).

And you're comments on dating and friendship are spot on.

EDIT: UBB Code.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
(in response to beverly) Yeah, and I agree with Jon Boy too. Part of the wrong idea is the idea that we can measure how much someone else wants something. That's just silly.

Edit: Zal, I agree with you about OlavMah. Girl makes SENSE!
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
From Zal's link:

quote:

---

I’ve always thought it was kind of gross when people mention that they’re in the process of “trying” to have a baby.

---

quote:

---

James M.: That is why I never ask whether or not people are “trying to have a baby.” Instead I say, “So, are you and your wife having lots of unprotected sex?”

---

See! This is what I'm talking about!
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Yeah, that is basically what you're asking when you use the word 'try.'
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
*laughs* now that's really funny. I've been invited to join Times and Seasons twice, but didn't have the time either time. No wonder they wanted me around their forum, or at least, one of them did.

Glad to see that my loooong posts aren't just an annoyance. I tend to digest life very audibly... or... expositionally, or whatever the word is when you're typing rather than talking....
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I see your point, JB. I think that maybe you were right and I was wrong.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Narnia, it used to annoy me when Porter would talk about how anybody could get a boyfriend/girlfriend if they *really* wanted. After all, *he* never had any trouble, right?

Well, or course he was a tall, deep-voiced, confident, smart, funny, good-looking guy.

I think the key element there is the confidence. And not everybody has it. And I think it is unfair to say that if someone doesn't have confidence it's 'cause they don't want it bad enough. Sounds like something my dad would say. >.<

Edit: Just to clarify, I am not saying that if a person doesn't have a boy/girlfriend they don't have confidence. Man. It's so easy to put my foot in my mouth.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 

quote:

---

Edit: Just to clarify, I am not saying that if a person doesn't have a boy/girlfriend they don't have confidence. Man. It's so easy to put my foot in my mouth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I see your point, JB. I think that maybe you were right and I was wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beverly:
Well, or course he was a tall, deep-voiced, confident, smart, funny, good-looking guy.

---

My first thought was, "That was me, except for the confidence."
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
:pirate:
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
OlavMah:

Sheesh -- don't they have enough lawyers there already? I had no idea they were recruiting more.


 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Yeah, they specifically wanted to recruit a woman lawyer and I was Adam G's mentor during his summer job at a law firm, poor guy.

All right, bye for now, Hatrackers. I gotta pack for a trip (I say this but because maybe if I type it out, I will stop logging in to Hatrack and instead focus on what I'm supposed to be doing.)
 

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Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :
 
OlavMah, I think we're talking about two different things (and it's my fault for being imprecise). In each romantic relationship I have had, we have dated. What I was focusing on was how I met the woman I was dating. I have always preferred a dating relationship that grew from a friendship. I assumed this was what OSC was talking about, but now I'm not so certain. Maybe I've misinterpreted Kat the same way as well.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

I think that it's relatively universally acknowledged that confidence is sexy. A confident person, in general, draws people to them.

---

quote:

---

Maybe I've misinterpreted Kat the same way as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?

---

quote:

---

I don't like being asked questions about my personal life, and I don't ask others about personal matters in their lives.

---

quote:

---

When we perpetuate the stigma of the singles program being a dating service for the desperate, we widen the gulf that separates us from those who need our support the most.

---

The sad thing is that some bishops and stake presidents (at least at BYU) help perpetuate the meat-market idea.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
That seems only fair.

edit: This is in response to kat
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jon Boy, that reminds me. My current ward is chock-full of girls right now. We had twenty girls move in and a grand total of three guys. However, Coccinelle's ward has an abundance of guys. When I told my bishop that one day when he was lamenting the statistics, he became very interested in aligning the two wards for group activities.

He called it the Lehi/Ishmael program. >_<
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I laughed aloud at that. :grin:
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
My singles ward had a dating council. I'm not even kidding. It was fairly innocuous, though; they mostly just arranged for huge group "blind" dates where we would have a chance to get to know more people. I still found the idea distasteful.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
I must say, I am continually fascinated by the dating ... arrangements? customs? don't know the right word ... of the Mormon church. I've never been exposed to *anything* like this before! Yay Hatrack
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
I must say that BYU is an abnormality. I visited a friend once and went to church with her on a Sunday that happened to be the first of the school year. There were questionnaires passed around for everyone to fill out and one of the questions was (I'm not kidding):

quote:

---

Marital status (choose one):

• Married (What are you doing here?)
• Engaged
• Soon-to-be engaged
• Hopefully soon-to-be engaged

---

Oh, that's really good for paranoia levels.

Going to a good institute outside of the bubble really spoils you, I'm afraid.
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Apparently, we all "must say"
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
When I was a student at BYU (LDS-owend university) my roommates and I created a blind dating service for fun. We painted a big advertisement on our window saying "We Match 'em, You Catch 'em" with our phone number. We actually got a few calls and did set a few people up. But then one of our other roommates freaked out about us having our phone# up on our window and made us take it down.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I agree about BYU being an abnormality. That really, really isn't the way it is outside Provo. Even at Utah State there were never questions about dating status on sign ups or dating councils.

I did have one bishop who vaguely wanted to test the guys for hormone levels because no one in the ward was dating. That was amusing.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Bev, that's awesome!
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
The singles ward---the only institution dedicated to its own destruction.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
I got it from both sides when Andrew and I got engaged my senior year of college. All of my NYC college friends thought I was crazy for getting married so young and all of my Georgia friends and family were relieved that I wasn't going to be an old maid (yes, that's the expression they used).

quote:

---

No, the comments and stares I get here are because we've been married for two years and haven't started popping out babies. That annoys me. Our reproductive status is no one's business, and I've given stern lectures to that effect when women feel my stomach because they want to know whether or not I'm pregnant, all the while still firmly gripping the offending arm. Some women have been "kind" enough to tell me that they're praying for me to give birth to twins by Christmas. Others ask us if we're trying.

---

quote:

---

Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?

---

Absolutely. When it comes to something like having children, no one should ever assume that it's their business.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
When our extended family members would ask us when we were having kids, the insinuation was always, "We suspect that you don't prioritize children as highly as you should, and are making a stupid life choice by delaying pregnancy," none of which was true, or even within their ability to ascertain.

And then when we DID get pregnant, it completely removed the opportunity to make a snarky comeback about it because the problem went away on its own So there's DOUBLE the frustration ...
 

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Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
 
Ah, single-life. After my mission, I'm planning on heading to BYU for Animation. Hopefully I can just coast like I have done this summer semester and not date at all . I hate dating.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Inkling is not yet 2 months old, people are asking us when we're having the next one.

I don't let it bother me. They're well intentioned.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It doesn't bother me when people ask anymore. Most of the time they are either looking for something to talk about or are genuinely puzzled by how it's possible that I'm not. That's okay.

I'm sure there are some, like my grandmother, that assume my priorites are out of whack, but for that I really don't care. It is soooooo none of their business, and as long as everything's cool between me and the Lord, their opinion doesn't mean anything.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

quote:

---

Does it have to be your buisness to ask a personal question of a dear friend or family member?

---

Absolutely. When it comes to something like having children, no one should ever assume that it's their business. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Megan:
Porter, I don't think it's the reaching out that bothers people. It's the judgment that is frequently implied (or even outright stated) in questions about a couple not having children. Like Puppy said, it's the insinuation that your priorities are mistaken that is troublesome.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps rules do apply for people that you aren't really close friends with. Tricksy.

---

quote:

---

I remember seeing one of the guys I grew up with in my ward, sitting several rows in front of me with his wife. They hadn't been married long. He was leaning forward, and she was casually running her fingers over his back as they listened to the speaker.

---

On a different note, does this kind of PDA during church squick anyone else out?
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Not at all.

I often sit with my head nestled against my husband's shoulder, or hold his hand during church. We were married in a church, we believe God has blessed our union, and we believe that our love for each other and devotion to each other glorifies and honors God.

Now certainly, making out while the preacher is talking would be innapropriate and disrespectful, but just sitting together, and being physically close and enjoying each other's company - it actually makes me happy to see married couples do that.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Most of the time when I ask people about teir children, it's because they have already mentioned something about them, we are at a playground or martial arts with a bunch of kids (where grown ups don't usually hang out for fun, or they have offered some sort of comiserating parental comment.

That one backfired on me recently, though. Ron and I took the boys to see fireworks. We had been invited by a fellow Ron had started working with. They had an area to themselves, the guy, his wife and two other married couples. There were several kids roaming around, but no way to tell who belonged to whom.

I was trying to keep the boys where I could see them, and they were being pretty good. I commented that they were getting to that age where they actually do as I say more often than not.

One of the ladies (at least ten years older than me - I think all of them were) said, "Wait 'til they're old enough to drive--then you'll have a whole new set of worries."

I plugged my ears and hummed, and we had a good laugh. Then I asked, "So, how old are yours?"

Both the women said thgey didn't have any. I was a little flustered by their 'voice of experience' advice, but they explained that they were speaking from what the third woman of their group had experienced (four of her own, two grown up and out of the house, and raising two of her grandchildren). Oy.

But I'm not so crass that I asked them why they didn't have children. They weren't treating me like a 'breeder' the way a lot of deliberately childless people will sometimes do, and I fantasized how much more freedom Ron and I would have if we were childless, and imagined them happy. They dance ballroom competitively, for crying out loud. We could never afford a babysitter that often, and have no realatives who'd volunteer to keep them. We have been without the kids overnight once in the last five years.

I mean, I LOVE my kids, but I would never feel bad for those who are simply childless. Whatever the reason, it is their own.
 

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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
Hand-holding is different from running your fingers over somebody's back.

Or their thigh. Really, church is not that long; can't they keep from fondling each other for two hours once a week?
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I don't see how they're that different. And I definitely don't see running your fingers over someone's back as fondling.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Yeah. I like running my hand over my husband's arm, touching his hair or patting his leg in the knee/thigh area whenever we're sitting together. It's not sexual, and I probably have done it in church without a second thought. Not that we have been to church in ages.

Now, I wouldn't want to see people going for the goodies in public, but nothing you described would bother me. I doubt I'd even notice it unless I was missing my Beloved for some reason. I used to notice stuff like that when Ron had to travel for work a lot. It would remind me that I missed his closeness, but I still never equated it with sex.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yoz, how is touching someone's back fondling? I mean, I haven't ever copped a feel in a church, but I've given Christy a neckrub there once.
 

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