Hello everyone. I'm new. I've only read two OSC books, Ender's Game and Speaker, the former being my favorite book, and the latter I'm re-reading but I've been browsing this site for a few days and I love it...so I thought I'd join the forum...
I was wondering if there's anyone here who likes movie scores? I'm obsessed with them...I have about 60 or 70 in my collection and rapidly growing. Any kindred spirits, and if so, what composers / styles do you prefer? I like Williams, Horner, Zimmer and any of his clones / proteges, Silvestri (Polar Express is amazing), Howard, etc...
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
What about Elfman? Williams? Talbot?
Edit: I just noticed you already had Williams listed. Sorry 'bout that. Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
I don't have enough Elfman to consider myself a 'fan' yet...Spidey 2 is good, and I just ordered Edward Scissorhands...the definitive Elfman I guess.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
And what about The Nightmare Before Christmas soundtrack? And I notice you mentioned not Talbot. Have you not heard him?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm rather fond of Howard Shore and Klaus Badelt.
Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
I've not heard much of the Nightmare Before Christmas...and I'm not familiar with Talbot at all. Yet, anyway. Widening my tastes is financially burdensome
Badelt's Time Machine is one of my all-time favorites, and Pirates is great, if cliched....
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm beginning to write my dissertation on motivic development in film music.
Yes, I like it pretty well.
I will say this, though: as far as musical styles go, you can pretty much paint film music with the broad brush of late romaticism. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of film music has solid roots in the music of Wagner and his contemporaries.
Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: I will say this, though: as far as musical styles go, you can pretty much paint film music with the broad brush of late romaticism. There are exceptions, of course, but the vast majority of film music has solid roots in the music of Wagner and his contemporaries.
Hmm...on that note, maybe you can answer this question. Given the type of film music I seem to like, what would be some good classical composers to listen to?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I can do that.
You like John Williams and Hans Zimmer? You'd also like Holst, Mahler, Wagner, and Richard Strauss. Brucker might be something you'd enjoy, although I don't particularly care for it (he's from that era, but I think his compositions tend to be more about being loud and long than about being interesting).
You might also enjoy some middle-period Stravinsky (things like Firebird, the Rite of Spring, and Petrushka).
Hmm...Verdi and Puccini might also be things you'd enjoy, if you don't have a cultural bias against opera.
Oooh, and thinks like Ravel's orchestration of "Pictures at an Exhibition" and Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique.
You might also enjoy symphonies by Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, and Borodin.
There's a start, anyway. Let me know if you like any of it.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I don't listen to movie scores or soundtracks very often, but there are a few that I do really enjoy. The Last of the Mohicans, The Godfather, Donnie Darko, and 28 Days Later. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
The score to the Godfather is excellent; Nino Rota also did the score for the Zefirelli Romeo and Juliet.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Thomas Newman is my current favorite...though David Newman (whom I had never heard of until this week) does some delightful work.
Howard Shore is a motivic genius. His themes and melodic work are stunning and moving and they really serve to plug you into a movie emotionally. However, his voice leading SUCKS. I own and regularly listen to all three LOTR soundtracks...I would tell anyone to BUY them, they are delightful. But there are places where I consistently cringe. Oh, the pain of a second inversion chord where there should be a ROOT!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Thomas Newman, David Newman, Randy Newman, Alfred Newman...it's all in the family.
And, I agree with you, Narnia. That's one of the reasons I'm actually NOT a fan of Shore, but will probably end up analyzing some of his work anyway. Although...it may be his orchestrators causing the voice-leading problems, you know. Also, ya know, voice-leading conventions aren't as imposing as they used to be. Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
quote: Also, ya know, voice-leading conventions aren't as imposing as they used to be.
Witch! Blasphemer! If it was written after 1870 it's rubbish!
The only real reason for imposing voice-leading conventions is to make the music sound good. And on that note (no pun intended) there are definitely moments in the LotR soundtrack which would be improved by adhering to conventions.
And I'd like to add my vote for Elfman. Cheesy though this may sound, I think BeetleJuice (or Betelgeuse ) has some way cool music, and it is quintessential Elfman.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Oh, and Welcome to the board, Winder!!
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Witch! Blasphemer! If it was written after 1870 it's rubbish! [Smile]
The only real reason for imposing voice-leading conventions is to make the music sound good.
Ah, but quite a lot of music written post-1870 sounds absolutely wonderful without adhering to tonal voice-leading conventions in the slightest. Also, quite a bit of the stuff between 1870 and 1900 did, in fact, follow voice-leading conventions. And, some of the more recent tonal stuff that does follow voice-leading conventions is just dull. Conventions in music sometimes work and sometimes don't; it depends on the hands of a skilled composer to make them work (or to make breaking them work!).
Ok, I'll put up my theory-fu now.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I second Danny Elfman. Along with getting Nightmare Before Christmas you should get Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
I don't know the name of the composer, but the music from Pirates of the Caribbean is awesome.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Gee, just 'cause you're smarter than I am.
I really do agree with you. I meant to say that I am all in favor of using or abusing (or abandoning) whichever tools or devices will most effectively say what the composer wants a passage of music to say.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
That would be Klaus Badelt. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Jemmy, it's not that I'm smarter than you are; it's that I'm about 3/4 of the way done with a Ph.D. on the subject. I'm used to running off at the mouth on the topic.
Heck, for all I know, you're a professor, and I've just ruined my career. Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Ah yes, I knew it was Klaus something.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Career?!? You expect somehow to make money with this? Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I, naturally, am a fan of John Williams. And this reminds me of something I read in E(ntertainment)W(eekly) the other day:
"AFI Names Star Wars Top Soundtrack of All Time Tracks include 'Main Title,' 'Imperial March,' and 'Stop Whining about your D#$@ Power Converters and Go Kill People.'"
But at the moment, I'm humming the end Pirates theme.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Well...not much money. More than I'm making as a grad student, though.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
JemmyGrove--you are full of hot air.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Megan, I heard somewhere (and I think it was on the LotR DVD extras) that Shore does ALL of his own orchestrations. So it really is all his fault.
Speaking of orchestrations, I remember being bummed when I found out that John Williams doesn't do all of his own orchestrations. He does a lot of them, but not all. In all honesty, his scores are brilliant. He's gone through periods of 'sounding like himself,' but he's come out of that even lately and done some fantastic work. (Harry Potter 3 and Revenge of the Sith are amazing scores. I love the use of baroque instrumentation in Harry Potter 3...and I'm a huge fan of the Imperial March.) Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
QueenBee...I just figured out who you are. Welcome to the board dearest! Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Lord of the Rings and Edward Scissorhands. Nuff said.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Winder, you mind if I come raid your house?
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Narnia, huh? How is the new job? Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Narnia, huh? How is the new job?
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Obviously a new user, and an idiot one, at that!
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Btw, welcome Winder, and QueenBee, and other new users!! Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raia: Winder, you mind if I come raid your house?
Well, I don't mind sharing, but I would be very sad if I came home one day to find my most precious worldly posessions gone... Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
And...could one of you explain to a less-technically-knowledgeable person what voice-leading is?
And on the topic of Shore and LOTR, is anyone else excited for the release of the complete FOTR score?
And Gregson-William's Narnia score???
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Voice-leading is a term that describes how melodies are put together in tonal (and sometimes in atonal) music--how they are constructed, and how they relate to each other. It describes how the music moves from one chord (sonority) to the next.
And, you should say "soundtrack" instead of "score." I keeping wanting to ask you where you're so lucky as to get all these scores, considering how deucedly hard film scores are to get hold of.
Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
Could you give me an example of voice-leading? I'm still not sure exactly what you mean...I don't have enough background in music...even though my brother is a prodigy.
Defining my terms: Soundtrack - any CD of music from or inspired by a movie, including song-only CDs
Score - CD with exclusively, or almost exclusively the film music rather than songs. I'm not referring to the actual sheet music.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Winder, I believe Megan is used to using the term 'score' in reference to the written music -- a full score contains in one document the music for all the instruments in the orchestra(pretty fun reading, actually).
Oh, and hi Mom. Posted by Winder (Member # 8685) on :
Ok, then I will retreat to my little corner of unimportance and unknowledgeableness where I cower in awe of the people who actually involve themselves in making music.... Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
[aside] QueenBee, the job is consuming my life. It's going great though, we're having a mini retreat this weekend (just on Saturday). I'm rather terrified. I'll probably call you before then.[/aside]
Back to your regularly scheduled topic. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I read this title as "Movie Scones."
MMmmmm... movie scones... <drools>
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Check out the score to an old movie called "The Lion in Winter." I fell in love with it years ago--it is young John Williams--before anyone knew his name, and much different from what he writes now.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hey, I was in that play!!
I've seen the movie, but I don't remember the soundtrack. I'll have to rent it. You can't beat Peter O'Toole and Kathryn Hepburn together. And a very young Anthony Hopkins.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Winder, I believe Megan is used to using the term 'score' in reference to the written music -- a full score contains in one document the music for all the instruments in the orchestra(pretty fun reading, actually).
Yes, that's what I meant. It's easy enough to get fake books with themes, etc., but to get hold of the actual orchestration used is actually relatively difficult, unless you're lucky enough to be at a place that has a nice archive of film music. Score nearly always refers to written music, whereas sountrack usually refers to both types of recordings you mentioned.
As for voice-leading...well, I'm not sure what you know, so I don't know how much to include in the explanation. Music with more than one voice (that is, more than one instrument, or a instrument that can play multiple notes at a time, like piano) is made up of chords. Voice-leading describes how melodies in individual instruments/voices move in the context of those chords.
A very basic example:
In the key of C major, the C chord (CEG) is I (roman numeral 1) and the G chord (GBD) is V (roman numeral 5). Let's say you have three instruments, and you want to go from I to V to I. The voices might look like this:
Voice 1: G G G
Voice 2: E D E
Voice 3: C B C
Voice-leading describes how each of the members of each of the chords above move: GGG for the first voice, EDE for the second voice, and CBC for the third voice. There are specific rules that govern how you can move from chord to chord. They take a while to learn, so I won't go into them here, but the basic idea is that you have to create melodies that are singable and make sense within the realm of tonality (at least, for conventional tonal writing).
Does that help at all?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Megan, that post gets a healthy snort coming from my general direction. *snort* I'm impressed that you wrote all that out. It reminds me of when I would solfege songs in email to my music major friends (*coughJemmyGrovecough*) but instead of being decipherable (like your explanation is), my emails had no apparent rhythm system...so it looked something like this:
(Can you figure it out? )
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
It sounds very familiar...but I think it's vocal lit., in which case I'm MUCH less likely to recognize it.
Regarding the explanation, I just LOVE to talk about theory. That's why I'm majoring in what I'm majoring in. What you just saw above was me geeking out at a very basic level. I really enjoy teaching it, and that's why, "What's voice-leading?" is probably a dangerous question to ask me. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I love it. There aren't enough music theory geeks in this world....but you might disagree with me seeing as how you're in Bloomington and I'm not.
(That was the Flower duet from Lakme by Delibes, just for info sake. )
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:(That was the Flower duet from Lakme by Delibes, just for info sake. [Smile] )
Heh...that's why I didn't recognize it, I guess. French kleinmeisters! W00t!
Nah, I like that there are other music theory geeks. I just hope there aren't TOO many of them, cause that would make getting job very difficult.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Has no one mentioned James Newton Howard yet?
If you're into impressive brass / percussion pieces (if you like Zimmer, odds are you are into such things at least a little), check out the Waterworld score.
Cool place for such interests, as well as hearing and requesting the music.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I really enjoyed JNH's soundtrack to The Village. It was cast in the same mold as Signs, but use of the violin was really effective. I also love his soundtrack to Peter Pan. I would recommend that one to anybody.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
quote:Originally posted by Winder: Ok, then I will retreat to my little corner of unimportance and unknowledgeableness where I cower in awe of the people who actually involve themselves in making music....
No Winder, come baaaaaaaaa . . . (can you hear the sound echoing off the empty, lonely walls?).
'Unknowledgeableness.' I love it.
OK. Here's an extrememly wordy attempt at describing Voice leading. I don't claim that it's even a very good explanation or a very thorough one, nor that any of you are under any obligation to read it if it gets too academic or rediculious. Take it for what it's worth. (I've been working on it on and off over the course of the entire workday, so I'm a bit behind on the conversation.)
Take two parts playing together, two violins for example, and in this case they're harmony lines playing at the same time (I'm going to make a mess of some of this vocabulary, I apologize in advance). There are detailed rules governing how they move together (and I'm generalizing quite a bit here so don't jump all over me yet Megan ): if the melodic lines are moving parallel (both going the same direction, then you try to avoid 5ths, 4ths (to a lesser degree), and octaves -- 3rds and 6ths are preferred. And often you like to have the two parts moving in opposite directions, either toward one another or away from one another (it's called contrary motion), but they cannot cross each other nor can they move too far apart, and there a few guidelines regarding what intervals are appropriate to use.
A basic chord is made up of 3 notes: a root, a 3rd and a 5th. The voice-leading conventions stipulate which of those three notes should be the bass note under various circumstances. For example, a chord has the strongest foundation when the root is the bass note, so that's often what you hear at the beginning and end of a piece of music. The chord is generally considered least stable when the 5th is in the bass, so that formation is reserved for very specific cases.
In four-part writing (four instruments, meaning four independent lines) which is the most traditional setup, there are also rules governing which note is doubled -- there are only 3 notes in the chord so one of them is played by two instruments. Again, the most stable formation doubles the root, although often whichever note is in the bass will be doubled.
So voice-leading conventions at their most puritanical are about moving all four parts from one chord to the next without breaking any of the rules: correct doublings, the right note in the bass in both chords, no interval issues with your parallel motion, the parts don't cross over each other, they keep a reasonable distance from each other, and each melodic line works by itself.
Sounds like a complicated bit of rubbish, doesn't it. My understanding is that voice-leading conventions developed because they sound good. Music students learn them not to be constricted, but to study what the masters did that made their music work. The rules do serve an important function -- you may hear people say that part of good composing is knowing when to break the rules.
And three cheers for theory nerds (we'll assign parts to each of those cheers later -- I think the first will be a Sonata-Allegro in C sharp, the second a Serabande built on the submediant, and the third a theme and variations borrowing a three-note motive from the S theme of the first cheer).
Sorry. Shoot me now. Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Dooo Dooo Dooo Lee me Dooo Lee me Dooooo. Soool Soool Soool Lee me Tiii Lee me Dooo.
(And no fair quibbling about enharmonics). Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Jemmy, you sound like a music teacher. Wherever did you get your wonderful training?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Dooo Dooo Dooo Lee me Dooo Lee me Dooooo. Soool Soool Soool Lee me Tiii Lee me Dooo.
Is this ...fixed do? Fixed do baffles me.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Movie Scores
Actually, the best I ever did in a theater was second base. But our new town has a drive in, so I'm pretty hopeful.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote:Jemmy, you sound like a music teacher. Wherever did you get your wonderful training?
HA!!! Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Actually, the best I ever did in a theater was second base. But our new town has a drive in, so I'm pretty hopeful.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
I think it's movable, I forget the difference I'm afraid. Do is the root, or the key, in this case. Does that help? It's just chromatic. And there are register shifts that I haven't even attempted to communicate . . .
QB, I had great parents and a phenomenal high school choir teacher.
[Edited to sound more friendly and less dry.]
[I'm thinking I didn't edit enough.]
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Ah. Ok, I was going the wrong direction with some of the syllables.
And yes, it's movable do.
Posted by QueenBee (Member # 8688) on :
Doooooooooooo-so-la-so Doooooooooooo-so-la-so So so la so (rest) so so la so (rest) so fa me re (dot) re do Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
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