Hatrack River Forum: What diet works?

This is topic What diet works? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

I'm trying my absolute hardest to not be one of those weight-gain-paranoid teenage girls, but the fact is that I've gained some where between 30-35 lbs since I graduated high school in June 2004. That can't be healthy, even if I was rather thin then. That's no longer the case.

I know freshmen in college are supposed to gain the freshman fifteen, and everything, and since I've been a freshman twice (technically), I guess I took that to extremes.

It just annoys me that I can't keep a handle on this. I feel like I'm eating fairly healthily... at least as healthily as I did before. Why on earth am I gaining weight at such an obscene speed?

Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, what works for you? I want to lose some weight, but it's not even that, so much as I want to find a way to eat healthily, because at the rate I'm going, there's no way this can be healthy. I heard "South Beach Diet" is supposed to be pretty good, but I know absolutely nothing about dieting, and could really use some help.

Thanks, everyone.

Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :

Are you looking at this from the output (exercise) end of things too at all, or just the input?

Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :

How much are you expecting to lose? Last year (my first year of college), I lost about 15 pounds just by watching what I eat. I tried to make my meals during the week be fairly healthy (low calorie and low fat), and then I'd splurge a little on the weekend (fast food and what not). It seems to be a pretty effective diet, since I lost that weight with little exercise. Just think if I threw some exercise in there as well.

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

Mainly input. I do some exercising, definitely more than I've ever done before... but I think it's more a concern of what's going into my body, than how I burn it up later.

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

I want to lose about 15-20. But I want to do it healthily.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

I would suggest *not* a diet - I've tried a few and you always get tired of it, and "cheat" a little and then it's all over (at least for me).

Tony and I at the moment are trying a new higher-protein, low-fat eating plan. It's not strictly regulated, and there are no banned foods. But it has made me more conscious of what I'm eating. On it, I'm eating a lot more vegies, a *heap* less fat, more protein and probably a little less carbohydrates than normal - and I'm feeling great for it.

Not sure if I've lost any weight yet (bloated this week... *grumble* time of the month *grumble*) but I feel better.

In terms of what I'm eating:

Breakfast: Hi fibre cereal (3/4 cup) + low fat milk, a piece of fruit.

Snack (if I feel like it): Fruit or a low fat yoghurt

Lunch: Wholemeal roll (or ryvita or small amount of pasta or 1 baked potato) with 100g protein plus vegies - for lunch today is a roll with turkey, cranberry sauce, baby carrots and baby spinach. I can also have 250 ml of a low-fat (homemade [Smile]

) soup if I want - today it's butternut pumpkin & coriander.

Dinner: 200g protein & veggies. Last night was skinless chicken thighs marinated in soy, ginger, garlic and lemongrass then baked and served with blanched sugar snap peas, asparagus, brocolinni & braised shitake mushrooms.

What I've found amazing is how much oil and fat I *don't* need in my cooking - last night's meal had no added oil or fat. Other meals average about 1 tsp per dinner - and before I was cooking with a *heap* more.

And, I'm trying to walk more. Got up at 6:15 this morning to walk the dog before walk. [Smile]

Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :

I'd think what I said would be healthily. I mean if you keep doing a decent amount of exercise and then you cut back to mostly low calorie/low fat foods during the week, you should be able to lose 15 pounds or so in a semester.

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :

Really, portion control and reducing fat in the diet are the two most important things in any successful diet. You can do this with the Weight Watchers "points" method, or by measuring your food, or any other way you like, but the goal should be the same-- to reduce your fat intake and definitely the size of portions you eat, and try to have a healthy, balanced diet.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

And, if I slip (hello bratwurst and smoked pork chops on Sunday!) I don't feel like I've cheated or anything - I just make sure I have lots of veggies the next day and maybe take the dog for an extra walk.

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

Yeah, don't call it a diet. If you want to lose some of your excess baggage, it takes a lifestyle change. What I mean is, you have to be a lot more conscious of what you put into your body, and in what quantity. Portion control, reducing liquid sugars (soft drinks), and cutting out unhealthy snacking are the keys.

You're exercising, so that makes it much easier. What I do is eat a healthy breakfast and lunch, then a little bigger dinner. That way I keep my calorie intake (relatively) low, but I don't have to totally cut out the fatty foods that I love.

Now don't go crazy though. Moderation really is the key. I still eat ice cream, cookies, pizza, doughnuts, and virtually anything else I have the impulse to put in my body. The key is I minimize the amount I eat. So I eat real ice cream, but instead of a huge cereal bowl full, one serving is about 6-8 spoonfuls. I still get the satisfaction of eating it, but it's about a 300 calorie snack, which isn't a dealbreaker. Thousand calorie late night binges are what kill you.

If anything I'm saying makes any sense, feel free to email me. I'm overflowing with advice in this area (and it's firsthand knowledge - I lost 40 pounds 3 years ago).

EDIT: And to lose weight healthily, you shouldn't expect to lose more than 1-2 pounds per week (in a program that combines nutrition and fitness). Any faster than that and you're in real danger of gaining it right back.

EDIT part 2: A lot of people gave similar advice, and I didn't mean to regurgitate it, but I didn't read the thread before posting. Everyone here is pretty right on about it.

Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :

Off-topic but speaking of ice cream servings, my local Ben & Jerry's now only offers Regular and Large (no small or kid's) sized servings. Is this a chain-wide change, or do I just need to look a little further afield to get my berry sorbet fix?

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

quote:
The key is I minimize the amount I eat.

You can also make this easier by buying the really good stuff.

I'd much prefer to eat a square or two of good, 75% cocoa chocolate (almonds optional [Smile]

), or a completely decadent truffle than a heap of the cheap milk stuff. And because it's so rich, you tend to feel more satisfied with a little bit.

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

See, the thing is... I don't even like sweets that much. I don't like ice cream, I'm not that crazy about chocolate (only sometimes)... I hardly snack between meals, and if I do, it's usually a pear or some dry granola or something... so I really don't understand it.

Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :

Have you had your thyroid checked?

Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :

What are your meals like, Raia? I mean if your meals are already healthy and you're still not losing weight (or are gaining weight), maybe it has something to do with your metabolism.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

Are you less active than you were at high school?

Even just less walking between classes? (For me, this changed a lot from high school - college. I went from doing a lot of incidental walking to doing a lot of studying (and so sitting) and not so much incidental movement).

No sweets - and healthy snacks. How about your main meals? If you're eating a reasonable portion and it's not fatty stuff then I agree - go see a doctor.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

quote:
Why on earth am I gaining weight at such an obscene speed?

Also - sometimes your body just changes. I was really skinny in high school, without trying. I ate what I wanted and didn't do any intentional exercise.

Then I turned 18 and put on 10 pounds - without changing *anything*. It was just my body changing. (Then I put on another 30, but that *was* eating. And beer. I blame beer. [Smile]

)

Mind you, 30-35 does sound extreme for that kind of change.

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

That's a guess, I haven't weighed myself since I came to DePauw... but I did weigh myself over the summer, in between being in Israel and coming here... and it was at 25 lbs that I gained last year. And I've expanded a great deal, again, since coming here.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

Go to a doctor. 'Cos if it is biochemical, better you know sooner rather than later and get it fixed.

Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :

I went vegan and started jogging an hour a day. I worked on my schoolwork while jogging (just think things out) and vegan food is surprisingly good. Yes, a few things like soy milk are more expensive, but meat typically costs a lot.

And hey, I've gained weight but I've slimmed down--it's all going to muscle mass.

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :

Since I know very intimately what you have available for meals, and I had the same problem last year when I was on the meal plan, maybe I ought to offer my two cents…

Eating on the meal plan can be very frustrating, because there aren’t a lot of options. It's much easier to eat the unhealthy stuff. But with a bit of effort you can get a very healthy diet from the meal plan food, and a decent amount of variety. A nice thing about eating at the Hub – you can literally find ALL of the nutritional data on all of your food if you look around or ask someone. And the portions are fixed. So you can know exactly what you’re eating, and figure out what you need to change. I’d suggest you keep a food journal for a few days, then, when you have some free time, either go to the Hub and write down and add up all of the important numbers for what you’ve eaten (total calories, total fat, carbs, protein, sugars maybe…), or I can show you this nifty program available in biology department that will do it for you (as well as show how many calories you burn while exercising & in daily life).

Here was my basic diet last semester, all available from the Hub:

Breakfast:
Oatmeal (one packet of the brown sugar, and one of the regular)
Cold cereal (the ones with complex carbs, like Wheaties) & skim milk
Odawalla juice (if I wasn’t very hungry)
Whole-wheat bagel / toast & low-fat cream cheese / peanut butter
Applesauce or whole fruits (there are some good fruit salads)
Cottage cheese & either peaches or pears
and black coffee, nectar of the gods, of course

Lunch / Dinner
Salads (very often)
Wraps / rice bowls from the Food Lab
Soup (if they weren’t cream-based)
Wraps / sandwiches from the Substantials section
Meat / Vegis from the Charleston Market section (if it was healthy)
Popcorn Chicken (not healthy, but yummy, so I didn’t eat it regularly)
Something from the breakfast section – I like breakfast a lot

I’ll elaborate a bit more on the different menu items.

Salads: they’re your friend. The salad bar has a lot of different vegis – I was pleasantly surprised when I came to DePauw. The main thing with salads is to just skip the few fattening things in the bar, and go for the healthy (and yummy!) options. Get the darker greens, broccoli, water chestnuts, carrot, baby corn, tomato, etc. DON’T get the cheese, bacon bits, or full-fat salad dressings (or anything mayo-based). I really enjoyed having salads with vinegar and a bit of oil when I ate at the Hub, but you can also get the fat-free ranch or whatever dressing – just use it sparingly. For protein, you can either use the chickpeas and other beans they have at the bar, or get the grilled chicken from Blackstock Grill.

Wraps / Sandwiches / Rice bowls: at all of these places they’ll let you bring vegis from the salad bar to add to your meal. So you can substitute dark greens or spinach for the iceberg lettuce, for instance, or add more vegis to your stir-fry. You can also ask for less oil to be used in the stir-fry, and for more of the sauce. Last semester the cook used to pull out a bottle of very hot Korean sauce for me every time, which added a lot of flavor to the meal. Don’t feel that you need to eat all of the wrap or all of the rice bowl – they’re a LOT of food for us girls, unless you’re really hungry. Don’t get the oil or the cheese on your sandwich/wrap unless you really love the flavor it adds.

Charleston Market has some really good meat and vegis, but only sometimes. You have to be selective – if it looks oily, it almost certainly has tons of fat in it. Even if it doesn’t, it very likely has more calories than you would think – but they’ll give you the nutritional data if you ask for it. Avoid the Pizza Hut area and the pasta bar at all costs (or just, you know, don’t go there regularly). Some of the Blackstock Grill food is ok – check the nutritional data they have posted there.

Most of the whole fruits aren’t ripe when they put them out – buy some, and let them ripen in your room. If you feel like fruit juice, get the Odawalla juices, as they have almost 100% fruit juice. But they do have a fair amount of calories, so watch out. If you don’t feel like paying the ridiculous price they charge per fruit, then consider going to Kroger’s – they have a much better produce section than Walmart does.

There was a nutritionist who was on campus every week or so that students could visit last semester – I’m not sure if they’re still doing that, but it might be worth the inquiry. Check at the Women’s Center.

If you get sick of the Hub options, you’re always welcome to come over and cook something at my place – I like to eat healthy, although Abhi & Thalith couldn’t care less. Next time I cook, you’re welcome to come over.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

Yay for Hatrack helpers on campus. [Smile]

Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :

*hums the vegan song*

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :

Joldo, is that the same as the lumberjack song?

Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :

Not quite. It's a top secret song by which vegans recognize each other. It's usually followed by the secret vegan handshake, and then the drinking of soy vodka.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

What, potatoes aren't vegan enough? [Wink]

Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :

Slowly I am trying to limit my intact of certain foods.
Didn't stop me from having milkshake last night and japanese snacks today, but I have been eating miso soup, salmon, more vegetables, no soda, not too many cookies with transfat, no chips, 2% milk.. ect...
It's a bit difficult. Eating healthy is expensive. I have started to eat more fresh fruit and a lot of Stoneyfield yogurt smoothies, but I do need to get more excercise.

Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :

Nope. Potatoes are actually elderly moles.

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :

Eew, elderly mole-vodka.

Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :

They ALL work. It's just impossible to keep the weight off once you've stopped the diet.

Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :

None of this sounds like your problem. But I'll say it anyway since it's worked for me (I've lost at least 50 pounds over the last few years).

When I finish my plate and I want more, I sit for a second and wonder if I'm trying to fill an emotional hunger or a body hunger. It is almost always an emotional hunger.

So, if you are going to stop feeding your emotional hunger with food (which it doesn't sound like you do anyway...), you are going to have to feed it some other way. If you don't, your needs will find a way of getting fed on their own. So it is best you be in charge of how your needs get met. It all balances out. I view this emotional hunger as energy. The more energy I have, the more hard things I'm capable of doing. Eating healthy and exercising takes energy.

For example, for me, unless I'm listening to CD's, music is always work, even going to concerts, even though I enjoy them. They do meet a need, but it is still an energy drain. So in my mental balance of my energy, when I go to a concert I chalk it up on the debit side, not the credit side.

If I play with my "toys" to just play, I chalk it up on the credit side. Video games would fit this category. But video games are like junk food, they can be bad for you in other ways...

However, if I play with my toys not as play but work, I chalk it up as a debit. I still play with Legos (I'm 31). But what is funny is that I'm very ambitious about it, trying to build difficult models and making 3d animations. I count these as debits as it is quite a bit of hard work actually. Sometimes I would rather clean a room (because it is less of a debit).

Rollerblading for me is mostly a credit because I always go with friends and it is still new to me and very fun.

TV is a credit, but I try to only watch the best shows (IMO) as mediocre shows can be a lot like soda... a credit, but a high price to pay for it.

It helps a lot to have someone else eating the same way as you. That is a major credit.

Taking easier classes or a lighter load would be credits. If you like your parents, calling home would be a credit. This forum, for me, is a credit.

Church is... mostly a debit. But it meets other needs so it is worth it to me. I suppose there are multiple levels of energy we need to function and a debit from one account keeps another account in the black...

If your life is such that you can't meet your needs any other way, then go ahead and eat. Better to gain weight in my opinion than the unknown.

Wow, that was more than I wanted to write. On that. I guess I'll save my actual food advice for later.

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :

It's important to eat a balanced diet. By that, I mean that not even fat should be eliminated from your diet. Some fat is necessary in order for your body to work properly - just make sure you take in healthy fats as opposed to unhealthy fats. I went low-fat (irritable gall-bladder, just didn't know it at the time) and had some pretty major problems result from that, including skin peeling off, hair falling out, and possibly some metabolic changes, too.

Fat-free dairy products enriched with vitamins A & D are useless - A & D are fat soluble vitamins, and if there's no fat, there's no way for the vitamins to get digested and assimilated into your body. Opt for 1% instead.

Skipping meals is no way to lose weight. I've read that people who skip breakfast on average gain 10 pounds a year. Better to eat smaller meals more frequently, or even three smaller meals and two or three decent healthy snacks. Eating can actually stimulate the metabolism, whereas skipping fools the body into going into starvation mode - lowered metabolism. Bad, very very bad.

Go for nutritionally dense most of the time (whole wheat rather than white, or brown rice instead of white, dark green leafy vegetables rather than that awful pale green iceberg lettuce that has no redeeming qualities whatsoever - that sort of thing), but still, for psychological purposes, give yourself one day off a week where you can eat anything. With that one day off a week, you'll feel so lousy with all that junk clogging your system (assuming you eat a lot of junk on that day off) that it's a pretty effective way to train your body to love the healthy stuff.

Like others have said, get yourself checked out by a doctor. If the weight gain is unexpected and unexplained, it could be a health problem that needs attention. Yes, thyroid is one of the more obvious things to look at, but realistically, there are a whole host of health problems that can affect weight & metabolism. Sleep deprivation is another.

Good luck. [Smile]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Shani, different diets work for different people, of course, and even for the same person at different ages. In general it gets harder the older you get. What you're probably experiencing is the change in your metabolism that happens at the end of your teen years. Also being in charge of your own meals for the first time when you go off to college can be another reason to gain weight. It's easy to let the fat, carbs and total calories in your diet creep up without realizing, because you are eating quicker foods like fast food, pizza, microwaveable stuff, etc.

AIM me and we can talk about this. I've found that I can only keep weight off by staying on a very strict diet always. Most people don't have to do that, but I do and I've accepted it. So this is something I think about daily. Here's what I do. I keep total calories below 1000 a day, with 800-900 being my goal. Most people can eat more than that but I can't. I keep total protein above 45g a day, and total carbs below 120g a day. If my blood sugar starts going up, I decrease the carbs by 10g a day until my fasting blood sugar in the morning is 120 or below.

Changes in your diet are easy to make if you keep a good daily record, are disciplined about it, and only change by about 10% a day. If you try to change too fast, you get a rebound effect. I believe that's how people end up with eating disorders. The control system can be sent into wild oscillation by trying to change too fast. The key is to change slowly, and keep a daily record, and then you can accomplish absolutely anything.

So here's my typical daily diet right now.

code:

Description     Qty   kcal   carb g  fat g  prot g
Low carb milk    4    360     20      20      32
Rice 1/2 c dry   1    300     70       0       6  
(makes 1.5 c)
Egg, ex. lg.     1     80      1       5       7
Curry, Japanese  1    165     12      10       2    
style blocks
onion                 free food
water chestnuts       free food  
carrots               free food
zuchinni              free food
squash                free food
celery                free food
other non-starchy     free food
veggies               
olive oil, tsp   1     40      0       4       0

TOTAL:                945    103      39      47

I also take a multivitamin every day and vitamin C. Really it's just like a budget. Everyone should sit down and figure this up to be sure they are getting essential nutrients. Particularly all mothers must do this for their children.

Looking at this it seems too high in fat to me. I can eliminate 20g daily by getting the skim milk low carb milk. The curry is a luxury, so I probably should eat that less often or try to cut the quantity in half. I could easily cut another 100 kcal daily out of this.

[ October 10, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

A big key is eating lots and lots of non starchy vegetables. You can have as many of these as you want. They count as free foods, because they're so nutritionally dense and calorically low that you can't get too many. Eat 2 cups per meal if you like, but a minimum of 1.5 cups per day. Nonstarchy veggies (NSVs) include:

Carrots, celery, onion, tomato, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, eggplant, spinach, water chestnuts (great substitute for potatoes in many recipes), green beans, beets, bell pepper, summer squash, zucchini, snow pea pods, bamboo shoots, lettuce, pickles, cucumber, those tiny corn cobs that come in chinese food, and other stuff I can't remember since I don't eat it.

Vegetables that are higher in carbs that must be counted as carbs are green peas, english peas, lima beans, black eyed peas, chick peas, corn, potatoes, rice, pinto beans, certain types of squash like butternut squash and spaghetti squash, pumpkin, black beans, lentils, and so on. Of course pasta, bread, crackers, and stuff like that also counts as carbs, along with all fruits like apples, bananas, pears, apricots, peaches, mangos, grapes, etc. Fruits are good for you but they still count as carbs. [Smile]

[ October 11, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. Did you start taking any drugs in college that have a side effect of weight gain? For example, hormonal birth control can have that effect on many women. In my own experience, I had to stop taking the pill in order to lose any of the weight I had gained while on it.

You don't have to answer here, medication being personal and all, but just take a look at any drugs you might be taking and see if they have weight gain side effects. If any do, you'll probably find it significantly more difficult to lose the weight than if it was just a result of overeating.

--Mel

Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :

I love this thread.

sorry I don't have any advice though!

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

human 2.0, your post was wonderful. That's a great way of organizing things, and I've done a little bit of that without putting it into those terms. Thank you. [Smile]

Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :

Exercise and reduced portions.

Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :

I want to chime in and support going to a doc and getting things checked out.

imogen:

quote:
And beer. I blame beer.

This reminds me of something Hank said in King of the Hill. "Bill, don't go blaming the beer."

It gave me a good giggle. [Smile]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Some of the diets I've used that have worked for me in the past are the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet, the Zone Diet, Protein Sparing Fast (which is like Atkins but with strictly controlled amount of meat and very low in fat), Meat and NSVs Diet (which also is low fat and has strictly controlled meat), Carnation Instant Breakfast Fast, and a diet similar to the Weight Watchers diet using exchanges, (a very good plan for regular people without special health related dietary needs).

The diet I try to stick to now is sort of a combination of what worked from all of these in the past. I try to eat almost all my carbs in a single meal once a day, a trick I got from the Carbo Addict's diet. I drink only diet sodas, and stick to 2% or skim milk. Each thing like this that you change permanently about the way you eat will help.

Also realize that hunger and nutritional needs are not very strongly correlated. Be careful to more than meet your nutritional needs, then when you feel hungry, just drink a lot of water, read a good book, or do something to take your mind off it. Stay away from food smells or the sight of people eating food. Realize that being hungry is not a good or sufficient reason for eating. Just uncouple those two things in your mind.

Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :

My first instinct was also that you should see a doctor--just to be sure. If your eating and excercise habits haven't changed, you're still young and you've unexplainably gained weight, there may be a medical problem of some sort. Make sure your thyroid is healthy! [Smile]

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

Which one is my thyroid? [Blushing]

Also, theCrowsWife, I haven't had any changes in medication... or rather, I haven't started taking anything, so I guess that isn't a factor either. And the only change I've had in physical activity is that I've actually been doing more than I normally do. [Razz]

I'm not sure I'd say that I exercise regularly (yet, anyway... I'm trying to get to that point), but I definitely exercise more than I ever did before.

And I don't drink beer, haha.

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :

quote:
Fat-free dairy products enriched with vitamins A & D are useless - A & D are fat soluble vitamins, and if there's no fat, there's no way for the vitamins to get digested and assimilated into your body. Opt for 1% instead.

Most people who eat any quantity of meat get more than enough vitamin D. And it's one that you can actually make yourself; the average fairly fair-skinned person makes enough in 15 minutes a day of light sun exposure with nothing exposed except his forearms. And vitamin A is one of those you actually don't want to get too much of, and if you're taking a multivitamin or even eating any kind of orange and yellow veggies or fruits or juice, you're getting enough vitamin A. Not to mention all the things they're both supplemented in besides dairy products.

This is all, of course, leading up to my justification for skim milk. Which is, A) you get more protein and calcium per ounce and, B) anything else tastes like oil poured into my milk to me. [Wink]

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

Raia,
WeightWatchers has always worked for me-when i actually follow it. As Ketchupqueesn mentioned, it is really about portion control. WW helps with that.
If you ever want to email me what you ate for one whole day, I can "point it out" for you, to see if there are hidden things that are adding up.
For example, a woman at Curves said she could not understand why she was still gaining weight. She came to Curves so she could burn off her ice cream. A Curves workout is, at most, 3 points. A bowl of ice cream can be ten or more. So she wasn't burning up as much as she thought.
edob63@yahoo.com

Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :

1) Keep a food diary. Write down everything that goes in, and when. Don't worry so much about changing what you're eating as keeping track of what's going on.

2) After about a week, look at your food diary. Are you drinking soft drinks with lunch and dinner? Do you always have dessert? If you get hungry in the middle of the afternoon, what's your snack? Cut out the unecessary stuff. This isn't about no chocolate ever, it's about not eating ice cream an hour before you go to bed and cutting out calories in your drinks (read the back of that Coke can, and you will no longer want Coke so very much), etc.

3) Drink more water. This will help your body process food. We also tend to misinterpret thirst as hunger, so we eat when we should be drinking water. And if you have a solid glass of water before every meal and when you first get hunger pains, you will be amazed at how most of the time you're just not that hungry after all.

4) Switch to lower-fat or non-fat versions of everything. It will take your taste buds time to adjust (about a week). Then really fatty stuff will start to taste nasty.

5) Take the stairs, not the elevator. Park in the back of the parking lot. Walk a little faster than normal. Find ways to get mini-workouts.

6) Fill up on apples and bananas and yummy salad that isn't iceberg, and avocados (good fat!) and watermelon and carrots and cucumbers and aspargus, etc. And whole grains. You will have no room for dessert. And the pounds will wander away . . .

7) Figure out what your calorie intake should be and then start reading packaging. And get scared. Processed food is mind-boggling bad for you most of the time.

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

"Switch to lower-fat or non-fat versions of everything. It will take your taste buds time to adjust (about a week). Then really fatty stuff will start to taste nasty."

Sugar is nonfat, and is used in many fat free products. Sugar is fat free, but can add high amounts of calories, so be careful. I prefer to eat less of full fat stuff. I would rather have less butter than fake butter any day.

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

Sugar is the enemy of weight loss, because it's off the charts on the caloric index (how much nutrition you get per calorie, denser foods have high calorie/low nutrition and lighter foods have low calorie/high nutrition. Think fritos for the former and carrots for the latter.) and your body doesn't break it down into anything useful.

Especially refined sugars (white bread, soft drinks, cookies, etc.), which should be minimized if you're trying to lose weight.

Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :

Here's how I lost weight while I was in college:

1. I cut out the fast food and red meats for the most part. I let myself have red meat only twice a week. I wasn't going to blow one of my two shots at it for a McDonald's hamburger or a food court hotdog, when I could wait and get a steak on the meal plan at the nice dining room.

2. Eat breakfast and eat it at breakfast time. Make it your biggest meal of the day on weekdays and go for the cereal/oatmeal, juice, eggs thing. You'll fuel up for the day and burn a lot of it off as you walk from class to class.

3. Eat something for lunch and have dinner before 7pm. Choose the chicken dishes and lots of vegetables. Get a salad with each dinner. Your meal plan can take it.

4. No late night Taco Bell runs or pizza delivery. No doughnuts either. (Your weight will be better and your pocketbook, too.)

5. Macaroni and cheese is not your friend.

6. Ramen noodles aren't either.

7. Lay off the beer.

8. Get some sleep at a regular time. When we wear ourselves down by staying up to late studying or partying and still try to meet our daytime schedule, we often look to food for an energy boost when we really just need sleep.

9. Soft drinks (sodas, cool aid, sweet tea and coffee) should be treated a lot like red meat. Try to limit it to two times a week. Milk, on the other hand, is mighty good for you and studies are showing that the calcium is important for healthy weight loss.

10. Find something fun to do with friends that requires a bit of physical activity. Dances, hikes, basketball, fencing, whatever. It's good exercise and it's hard to do those things and eat at the same time.

That's what worked for me back then. I think I need to go back to doing it again...

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

So, Sopwith, what I hear you saying is that, when I was in college, my friend and I should not have had our Thursday ritual of sharing a large pizza, washed down by a six-pack of Bud Light, accompanied by potato chips, and followed closely by a pint each of Ben and Jerry's?

Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :

Don't forget the four a.m. run to Awful Waffle!

Man, those were good times, but during my first semester I packed on enough weight to have made a good-sized kindergartner...

And stay away from the chiba... munchies are never good for the diet.

Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :

Since when is there sugar in bread?

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :

Uh, since yeast...

Yeast eats sugar. Most bread has sugar in it.

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

Teshi, there is also often sugar/molasses/honey added to bread.

And Sopwith, we had no late-night places to eat, really. It was Vermont. Although there was the Crest Room. A late night cafeteria sort of thing on campus.

Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :

Plus when your body digests carbs (ie bread), it breaks it down into glucose/sucrose - I forget which exactly, but they're both forms of sugar. And if you don't use the energy generated from that, it turns into a nice big lump of fat.

I have nothing else to add on the diet thing, but I am avidly reading all tips. [Smile]

Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :

quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
human 2.0, your post was wonderful. That's a great way of organizing things, and I've done a little bit of that without putting it into those terms. Thank you.

Really? I thought I was totally the odd ball in thinking like this... I've only heard a few people talk like this, and even not as extreme as me.

Anyway, here is my food advice. I should say, I eat like this even when I'm being bad. I'll let things splurge a little, like I'll eat out more or get pizza. But when I gained all my weight, I ate like this and, well, suplimented it with yummy stuff like ice cream, brownies, candy, etc. I know (and can cook) some killer desserts! [Wink]

I fully second what everyone else has said. I follow many of the things some have said. In addition, here is more that I do.

- I avoid fruit juices (but love them). If I drink them, it is always 100% from fruit and I limit myself to one glass a day.

- I have no restrictions on Crystal Lite (which I started drinking a few weeks ago since Card mentioned them somewhere...), which I usually drink 3-5 glasses a day (which still doesn't come close to the amount of calories in one glass of juice or soda). It is kinda expensive though.

- I was raised on powered milk, so skim milk tastes quite yummy to me. 2% tastes downright guilty.

- No candy, chocolate, or desserts. Actually, about 10 years ago I still ate sugar based candy but no oil-based desserts and I still lost weight. But I started it up since then and gained lots. This time around my mom kinda pressured me to quit eating all of it... so that is how I started my diet and lost the 50 pounds. Just this rule alone (because I already did everything else). At first it was hard. But now I don't miss the stuff that much. It has been at least a year since I've had chocolate or candy. The closest thing I've eaten to candy or junk food is the little cheese crackers they feed you on airplanes. And I eat it to calm my nerves. Well, I think I might eat cake at some birthday parties... I can't remember though.

- Splenda is an excellent sweetener, but I tried everything else first (and didn't like any of them) before I settled on it. It also doesn't seem to be shrouded with doom and gloom stories (that I know of).

- Mayo isn't my thing, so no-fat Miracle Whip works fine for me, and my salad dressing is always non-fat blue cheese.

- I usually leave out all calls for oil in frying recipes and just, well, end up scraping the pan more than I need to and use lots of water. I never deep fry.

- Some cookie recipes can have butter and oil substituted with bananas or applesauce. It tastes different, more fruity, but still good.

- I get fat-free unsweetened yogurt and sweeten it on my own.

Don't let friends eat the food you cook this way because it is unfamiliar and they will probably hurt your feelings... I know my friends have not given me the best of reviews... but not because it isn't good and satisfying. Just different.

- I'm not vegan, but I've come to recognize that some of the foods are really yummy. I live for Carob flavored soy drink (but avoid it because it is high cal). I came up with a recipe for smoothies that uses Silken Tofu and I have it for breakfast nearly every day. I also throw in a scoop of protein powder and nutritional yeast (which is very yucky and takes getting use to) just to make sure I'm safe for nutrition. I've found oil-less baked whole wheat crackers that are actually really yummy. And Boca makes killer tofu foods. Their chicken patties and sausages are very good replacements for the real thing. I could live off of Boca. All from the health food store, and the chain grocery stores are starting to carry more and more of this stuff.

- I still eat meat, but try to keep the portions at 4 onces. I try to stick to poultry and fish. I replace beef with ostrich burger (which is much more expensive, but healthier I believe).

Oh. And sushi! I actually have no idea what its nutritional value is. But I've gotten quite fond of California rolls.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

I loved it when my mother would make bread, because I'd sneak a taste of the warm milk, butter, and sugar mixture that started the dough.

-----

I also love sushi - it's my favorite restaurant food, hands down.

I can't cut out sweets - I love them too much. I don't eat them more than once a week, usually on Sunday when I have extra time and don't really go anywhere. I'll bake something, be careful about portions, and take the rest to work the next day. I've discovered that if I try to cut out sweets completely, I'll cave and get chocolate cheesecake on the way home from work because I miss it so much.

Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :

thyroid gland (the best page I can come up with my limited amount of time... sorry!)

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

Yeah, it's better to allow yourself treats from time to time. If you totally cut out things you really love, you're asking to blow your diet in a spectacular way.

Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :

IRRC, everything that can be digested is eventually changed into glucose.

But I might not be recalling correctly.

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

No, I think that's true. But if that glucose isn't burned off it's converted to fat for storage. Sugars are more easily converted in this fashion than, say, vegetables.

Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :

Anything that isn't a mineral, Mack. Glucose is, bar none, the most important thing in your body. The reason refined sugar is so bad for you is that there's it's simply too much sugar. Your liver can only handle so much at one time, eat too much candy and your liver balloons a little and converts all that extra sugar to fats and then kicks them out into the blood stream.

Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :

Right. Really, the only difference between "refined" sugar and "natural" sugar is concentration. Most vegetables are largely cellulose, which you can't digest anyway, sugars that you can digest and break down into glucose (cellulose is a sugar as well, but the bonds are too high energy for the body to break), water, and protein.

Anyway, so if you must eat that package of M&Ms, draw it out over the day to give your liver a break, and drink plenty of water so your urine doesn't get saturated leaving you with no recourse but to convert everything to fat. The number one weight loss thing most people should be doing is drinking more water. Do you drink 2 litres a day? No? You should.

Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :

*nod* okay, that makes sense.

when I was first told I was hypoglycemic, the sweet I could still really have was ice cream, because it was broken down more slowly than other sweets.

of course, then I became lactose intolerant shortly thereafter. [Mad]

Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :

You know, I shouldn't say that everything does get changed into glucose, but rather that everything can. It depends on what your body needs at the time.

Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mackillian:
of course, then I became lactose intolerant shortly thereafter.

Wow. That sucks. [Wall Bash]

I am somehow able to do without sweets completely because of external motivation and because I do try to take the rest of my life easy. I don't finish do half of the things I want to. And half that I do I don't do well.

I use to believe that if it was worth doing, I shouldn't rest until it was perfect. Then I heard recently (here?) that if it is worth doing, then it is worth doing badly until you do it well.

Anyway, I think the number one weight loss strategy is to have other people help, because I think that is the most powerful thing I have on my side.

I think I'll ride my bike to work today. [Smile]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

I want to add another strategy to the list, if anyone's interested.

Spend 5 or 10 minutes a day writing down every single bite you eat and totalling up the grams of fat, carb, and protein as well as the calories.

You don't have to know the totals perfectly. On foods with no nutritional information, like restaurant food, you can guess. Just be sure it's an honest guess. It isn't all that important that you get it accurate at all. Just be consistent and don't let yourself cheat by deliberately guessing low (or high). It's a great exercise in being 100% honest with yourself. And if you are consistent in your assessments, if a Moe's Art Vandalay, for example, is counted the same each time you eat it, then the change over time will be in the right direction, which is what matters.

Then spend 10 minutes each day thinking about the totals, remembering what nutrition you need each day and making sure you get it (vitamins, minerals, protein, total calories). Those 10 minutes are for meditation, prayer, serious thought, intellectual curiosity and questioning. What kind of health do you want to have? What are the long term consequences of eating the way you did today? What would you like to change? How do you want to look and feel? How much pleasure did you get from eating the various things? Which things were, in retrospect, a good idea and which were not so good? No need to lay any heavy guilt trips on yourself. But just think about what you are doing, and consciously make the choice of how you want to eat. Connect the brain firmly into the eye-hand-mouth circuit. Bring the full power of your intelligence and true long-term wishes to bear on your food consumption decisions. That is a very powerful tool in any undertaking.

[ October 19, 2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Another good strategy to keep from feeling deprived in the long run is that you can eat one bite of almost anything without it being harmful.

One bite a day of something good can bring the full pleasure of a huge chocolatey dessert, when you are adjusted to it. I love to buy Hershey's Special Dark candy bars and put them in the freezer. They are conveniently scored into 12 parts, each part of which has only 2 grams of carbs. For dessert each night I get one of those sections and let it slowly melt in my mouth from its frozen state. It's indescribably good. [Smile]

This strategy doesn't work for everyone. If you have trouble not eating the whole bar, then you should not tempt yourself beyond what you can currently withstand. My sister's motto is "the first bite is the easiest one to resist" and that's very true. But don't feel sadness at the thought that you can never eat anything good again, ever, because that's not true.

You are learning not how to deprive yourself but rather how to really satisfy yourself deeply by eating exactly the way your body actually needs you to eat. All the taste and all the pleasure is there in that one bite, if you can school your will to accept it.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

The paradox is that when you deprive yourself of food, it tastes so much better to you when you do finally eat it, however much you eat, that you get a whole lot more pleasure from it that way. This is one of those ways that poor people are given joys that rich people never know.

The first slice of pizza after six months of being on a zero carb diet was the most heavenly thing you can imagine! <laughs> It's true for food as well as toys, cars, houses, and everything else. When you can have anything you want anytime you want it, the pleasure of it is largely missing. To reawaken a childlike delight from eating a cookie, allow yourself only one bite of cookie a month. [Smile]

Alas, I'm exposing myself too much and showing what a craven hedonist I truly am. <angel smilie>

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

Well, I have lost a dress size. OK, I never wear dresses, so I lost a pants' size.

How?

WeightWatchers.

Why am I following it, and exercising regularly?

I HAVE NO CLUE.

Something clicked. I wish I could bottle that thing that happens in my head and give it away, or save it when it disappears and I go back to not caring, and to overeating.

I do not think it matters what you do, whether it is WW, Atkins, South Beach, eat less/exercise more, or whatever, as long as you do it.

But how do you get to the point where you can do it?

Honest, i wish I knew.

Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :

I am loving WeightWatchers. I've lost 22 lbs in 12 weeks, and eat enogh food to be satisfied. I find it really helpful during that time of month when I get REALLY hungry and want lots of junk food. Helps keep me on track.

Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :

Hehehe. I had birthday cake the other day. It has been so long since eating yummy stuff, it was rather intoxicating. [Big Grin]

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

I just borrowed my mom's copy of "South Beach Diet." She bought it over two months ago, but hasn't opened it yet. I figure maybe I can put it to better use. [Razz]

I'll see if I can stick to it. It was created by a cardiologist, so I don't doubt its ability to improve my nutrition habits, if nothing else... but the problem is, I don't make my own meals. Being in college, I'm on a meal plan, and what I can eat is very limited to what I have available. But I'll do my best and let you guys know how it goes. Maybe I can make this thread a la Lyrhawn's exercise thread -- I'll post updates on how it's going, and you guys can post about YOUR diet plans too, and your goals, and so forth. Yes? [Smile]

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

Actually, Raia, I would say, "NO," because there is the Weight Loss Encouragement Thread, and Icarus is really into the fact that it has so many pages.

Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :

For some reason the South Beach Diet people have been spamming me for the past few months, and I haven't bothered blocking them yet because A) I'm lazy, and B) sometimes they send me free recipes that aren't in the book (which I have and don't use). Today the spam just happened to be about college cafeterias, so I thought Raia might find it helpful:

quote:
Mastering the College Cafeteria

Every college student has been forewarned of the dreaded "freshman fifteen." But gaining weight at school is not just a problem for freshmen — eating healthy while on a meal plan is challenging until the day you graduate. Luckily, there are a few steps you can take to avoid gaining weight while in college.

- Stick with the salad bar. Regularly eating from the salad bar is the surest way to avoid packing on pounds. Load up on hearty vegetables and go easy on cheese and dressing (or stick to the balsamic or oil and vinegar). Keep in mind that not everything on the salad bar is healthy. Keep your distance from the bacon bits, croutons, and blue cheese dressing.
- Embrace "do it yourself" day. Some cafeterias will set up stations to allow you to prepare your own omelets or stir-fries. Take advantage of these opportunities to control what ends up on your plate.
- Say "no" to hot and greasy. Most cafeterias offer an endless supply of pizza, French fries, and pasta dishes. While these items are difficult to avoid, use them as occasional treats.
- Forgo the dessert. It can be tough to resist double dessert (at lunch and dinner) on a daily basis, but do your best to skip the final course. If you must submit, limit yourself to a piece of fresh fruit or sugar-free gelatin.
- If you don't see it, ask for it. If you'd like your chicken breast without the creamy sauce or you wish there were more broccoli on the salad bar, speak up! Most college cafeterias have a forum for comments and suggestions; you may even be able to make an appointment to share your opinions with the head cook. Plus, your efforts might help improve the health of other students.

I don't think these suggestions apply to any specific phase of the diet, or at least, not the first one. They seem more like general guidelines. But anyway, there they are. Make of them what you will. [Smile]

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

Oh... right!

I forgot about that, Elizabeth. Sorry!! [Embarrassed]

Nell Gwyn: Thanks. [Smile]

Posted by Goo Boy (Member # 7752) on :

[Razz]

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Well, I've lost 5 pounds the last couple of weeks. Not much but at least it's in the right direction. [Smile]

If you eat lots of nonstarchy vegetables, like 3 cups a day or more, it really helps. I love stir-fry so I can sit down to an enormous plateful of tasty food and refill my plate again, if I like, by making it all from NSVs.

One really good tip I got from the Carbo Addict's Diet is to save all your carbs for one meal a day. This means I get to have one very satisfying meal each day, including some yummy forbidden type things, so I don't feel deprived. It also, after the first few days, dampens your background insulin output which keeps you from having cravings so often, or feeling hungry, and allows your liver to metabolize some fat into glucose for energy. I've found that if I limit my carbs to one meal a day, I am able to eat more of everything, because my metabolism stays high, while still losing weight.

When I spread the carbs out over the whole day, which is how the standard diabetic diet works, and the weight watchers diet which is similar, then I find my body keeps my metabolism very low, in starvation mode. I'm cold all the time, and don't have as much energy, and I have to decrease my calories more and more to achieve the same weight loss.

This may not be how your metabolism works, but I've found it's very successful for mine.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

One more excellent tip from the Carbo Addict's Diet is to weigh every day at the same time and write it down. Then at the end of each week, average your daily weight and compare that from week to week. Daily weight tends to fluctuate a good deal, but weekly averages damp out these minor fluctuations which can make you feel frustrated or disappointed. If you compare only the weekly averages, then you are usually looking at real change, so it gives you a much better basis to judge how you are doing.

Also, the process of weighing and weekly averaging, as well as the process of writing down and totalling up every bite of food I eat, keeps me honest and keeps me from losing focus over the long term. To make significant changes takes months to years. You have to be committed for the long haul, and willing to follow a plan and execute a timeline. It's rather like doing a big engineering project or buildling a house. You have a long term goal, a map of how to accomplish it, and you keep going back to the map, recording your progress, and refining your strategies over time. In the end it's just inevitable that the impossible will become possible, and will come to pass. The timeline might shift a bit, the goals might be modified by what you learn along the way, but in the end you will achieve what you intend.

Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :

Yeah, I don't actually have a scale... and I was thinking earlier today that I'll go out and buy one. My problem was that I was afraid of becoming obsessive about it, but I think it's important to keep track, and it's also important to use the same scale since each one is a little different.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

The people who say "don't obsess" are usually people who have fairly minor trouble with their weight and metabolism, or so I've observed. My dad could cut his pint of ice cream after dinner each day in half and the weight would drop right off. Lucky dad! Too bad I didn't get those genes. [Smile]

Of course it gets really boring keeping up with it after a while, and there are higher priorities in life that intervene sometimes, but I've found if I don't keep a pretty close eye on things, then I don't have a good outcome. As it is, I weigh more than I'd like. If I didn't keep a very careful watch I would weigh a lot more than I do, a lot more than is healthy. So is that obsessing? It seems to me to be the appropriate level of concern. I spend about 20 minutes a day thinking about and recording food eaten, weight, and blood sugar. To me that's a good investment in my health. If I were like my dad, I wouldn't have to think of it so often, but unfortunately I'm not. [Smile]

To me, obsessing means if you weigh a great deal less than the ideal body weight for your height, and you still think you're fat, and you are unable to bring yourself to eat anything even when you really need to, and you aren't getting adequate nutrition. [Smile]

If that ever happens to me then I'll begin corrective measures.

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

I haven't stepped on a scale in over two years.

When I first started dropping weight I weighed religiously - I enjoyed the positive feedback that successively lower numbers brought.

But since I've been trying to maintain my weight, and more importantly, my appearance since then I don't use a scale.

Weight is just a number. I find it much more useful just to go by what you look like, how your clothes fit, and how you feel like. I don't see any reason to handcuff myself to a scale anymore.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

I think a scale is a good investment. It doesn't have to be all that accurate because mostly you want to know what direction you are headed over time. If you weigh at the same time each day then you can see how things are going.

The weekly average keeps you from focusing on unimportant daily fluctuations and getting overly excited or sad about those. Also it's not important if you skip or forget one or two days a week. You still get a decent average with only 4 or 5 data points.

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :

If you insist on using a scale, I recommend making your weigh in first thing in the morning, before you've eaten or drank anything. It'll give you the most consistent results and also the lowest weight.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

JT, that's what I recommend too, for consistency. It makes for the best comparison from one day to the next.

Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :

FYI, there's a couple of scales in the gym, Raia.

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Oh I found out something new about protein. This affects lecture 27 immensely, so all those who have been subjected to it in the past, please listen to the revised version.

The absolute bare minimum protein intake daily (this is what a kidney patient or someone who needed to limit proteins for medical reasons should have) is 8 grams per day for each 10 kg of body weight. A kilogram is 2.2 pounds, for you people from Brunei and The United States of America, (those two great industrial nations who have yet to adopt the metric system [Wink]

).

So, if you weigh 110 lbs = 50 kg then you need to get at LEAST 40 grams a day of protein or else you will start losing your muscle tissues. I will make a table.

Weight. . . . Protein
99 lbs . . . .36 grams
110 lbs . . . 40 grams
121 lbs . . . 44 grams
132 lbs . . . 48 grams
143 lbs . . . 52 grams
154 lbs . . . 56 grams
165 lbs . . . 60 grams
176 lbs . . . 64 grams
187 lbs . . . 68 grams
198 lbs . . . 72 grams
209 lbs . . . 76 grams
220 lbs . . . 80 grams
231 lbs . . . 84 grams
242 lbs . . . 88 grams
253 lbs . . . 92 grams
and so on.

Now, if you're running, working out, lifting weights, or otherwise trying to put ON muscle mass, you need more than this. This is the bedrock bare minimum. I would go for at least 50% more in that case, perhaps just double it.

Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :

Whole milk is truly evil and this is why:
Milk straight from the cow contains approximately 3% milkfat. Whole milk is 4%.

THEY ADD FAT TO WHOLE MILK!

Need I say more?

Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :

Oh, but it's sOoOoOoOo good! <angel smilie>