Do anp of you use the Dvorak keyboard? I'm switching over, starting today. How long did it take you to switch? And yes, this was typed entirely in Dvorak. Yikes!
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Want to clue the rest of us in? What's a Dvorak keyboard?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Why? Anp yarticular reason?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Alright, I'm switched back to Qwerty for the time being.
Qwerty is the standard keyboard that most of us in North America have been using, and it's the standard keyboard for typewriters (and I show my age once more!) computers and whatnot.
The problem with Qwerty is that it was designed with the prevention of jamming keys in mind, and naturally, a slower typing speed and more awkward typing is the result. Guess what? I'm not using a typewriter, and I have no keys to jam. Qwerty is obsolete.
Dvorak, on the other hand, is said to be more natural, comfortable, and people can gain much higher typing speeds with it.
For the fun of things, I ran across this website - you enter text into their little box and it compares the text on both Dvorak and Qwerty so you can see the differences for yourself.
I'm switching over for the fun of it, but also because it's supposed to be easier and faster. Silly me, I'm doing it now, three weeks to NaNoWriMo. That's the real reason. As a writer, I'll be doing a lot of typing over the years to come, so really, I owe it to myself to make it as easy as possible.
Oh, I also downloaded Ten Thumbs Typing Tutorial, and I'm using that for my typing lessons.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
quote:The problem with Qwerty is that it was designed with the prevention of jamming keys in mind, and naturally, a slower typing speed and more awkward typing is the result.
I was under the impression that this was an urban myth....
Dvorak! Oh, the American String Quartet, the New World Symphony, yes, he's...
um...
Never mind.
*******************
In that article, I am particularly amused by the following sentence:
quote:I apologize for any typo's in the article.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I've played with Dvorak before when I was bored at work. I liked it. I eventually switched back to qwerty, though, because at the time I was doing tech support, meaning I'd be using lots of different keyboards. Maybe I'll try switching again, for fun.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love the New World symphony. I misplaced my CD in the move, but thank you for the reminder - I need to find it. Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
Please keep us up to date on how it works out for you. I've been barraged by both sides of the dvorak argument (It's Superior vs. It's a scam) and I'd like to know how much of a difference it ultimatley makes for you.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troubadour:
quote:The problem with Qwerty is that it was designed with the prevention of jamming keys in mind, and naturally, a slower typing speed and more awkward typing is the result.
I was under the impression that this was an urban myth....
Troubs, I skimmed the article and found nothing that contradicted that statement. Perhaps I'm being blind?
The rest of the article, some I agree with, other things I could quibble, but really not overly important to me. Some things I've read elsewhere tell a different story, but no surprise in that.
I'm curious if anyone else here has switched from Qwerty to Dvorak, and if so, what was your experience like? Do you find it easier or much the same? Has your speed actually increased? Or stayed the same?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Wonder Dog - will do. I'm curious myself, as I've also seen both sides and don't honestly know myself which it is - and possibly won't until I find out for myself. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I had a friend of mine from college, a programmer, switch, and find it much easier on his wrists. This is, of course, anecdotal.
-Bok
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I love the New World symphony. I misplaced my CD in the move, but thank you for the reminder - I need to find it.
No problem!
I have to say, though...Having seen Sybil a couple of times, parts of it seem quite disturbing to me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I've never seen Sybil. Should I stay away from it if I want to love the music as much as I do now?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Here I'm thinking this is a thread about Dvorak the composer. I love/own The symphonies from 5 to 9, the cello concerto, the slavonic dances, the string serenade, etc. And I just ordered some of his chamber music from berskhirerecordoutlet (very cheap! though it'll take a month to get here =/ ). Yea, dvorak is among my favorite romantics. =D
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I've never seen Sybil. Should I stay away from it if I want to love the music as much as I do now?
I would say...probably not a bad idea, or at the very least, fast forward when you get to the part where the mom is playing piano.
Actually, the movie as a whole is fairly disturbing, although I do think Sally Field gives a pretty amazing performance in it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quid, it's sort of buried in that piece. Try the Straight Dope's summary of it. Be sure to read the second part of the page!
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
I love the composer too.
I know a programmer who switched. He swears by Dvorak. He wrote a Mac app to prove it is better:
When he told me of his experiences, I've considered switching... People say I type really fast, but for me, it isn't fast enough.
But I do work in a computer lab, and I don't know if I'll be able to handle going back and forth between dvorak and qwerty. My friend says he avoids qwerty like the plague.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Maybe we should all try out dvorak for a week... Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I don't see how that Keymileage thing actually "proves anything," unless you're typing with one finger. It doesn't matter how far apart the keys are if you've got fingers near each key.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Okay, so how do I switch my keyboard to a Dvorak keyboard? Can I do it with a regular keyboard, or do I have to buy a new one?
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I considered switching to a Dvorak keyboard. By the time I did though, I'd spent years learning to touch type and I'm fast. I think that the pain of relearning where all the keys are wouldn't be worth it for me. Oh well.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: I don't see how that Keymileage thing actually "proves anything," unless you're typing with one finger. It doesn't matter how far apart the keys are if you've got fingers near each key.
I didn't actually try it, so I don't know. But I think the idea is that Dvorak has the most common keys on home row. And alternates fingers for most combinations. Like all vowels are under a particular hand, or something. So by calculating distances, all it is doing is counting how many times you have to leave home row, and how far your finger travels when it does.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Okay, nevermind. I found out how. I'm typing this on a dvorak keyboard and I feel as though I had to learn how to walk or talk all over again.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Actually, the movie as a whole is fairly disturbing, although I do think Sally Field gives a pretty amazing performance in it.
Yup, I'll agree with that. My mother made my sister and I watch it when I was 5. Talk about inappropriate! But then, that's normal for her. . .
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
ewwwwww...FIVE?!
I watched it at sixteen and had nightmares for a week! I was actually surprised by that though because I had read the book by then and it was much more graphic. Of course the book disturbed me too. Guess I should have known better than to watch the movie.
Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
You're right Human. The original idea behind dvorak was to put the most common keys on home row (asdghfjkl; on a qwerty keyboard) and alternate letters back and forth between hands (type "are" or "you" on a qwerty to see exactly what dvorak tries to avoid). Whether this actually improves typing speed or comfort is questionable... my understanding is that most of the research that supports the case for dvorak was performed by its developer(s) in, what largely ammounts to, their attempts to market the layout.
Here's an interesting read for anybody willing to try a truely odd layout: http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
rivka & Troubs, I think I get what you're both saying. You're providing documentation that says that Qwerty is not necessarily awkward and slow, whereas I thought Troubs was disputing the origin of the Qwerty keyboard. Have I finally got it figured out?
I hope so!
digging_holes, I was asleep, so I'm glad you got it figured out.
If anyone else is wondering, it's under Control Panel, Regional and Language Settings, Languages, Text services and input languages (details), and from there, adding the Dvorak keyboard.
If you're using a computer, generally speaking, no new equipment is required. You can simply switch to the Dvorak and be done with it. Or switch back and forth between Dvorak and Qwerty.
So. Yesterday, I started in on learning Dvorak. I have aoeuhtns.c covered. I spent a half hour or 45 minutes on the typing lessons.
I'll keep you posted. Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
What typing learning program are you using?
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Are there any MD's or Physical Therapists who know if switching to Dvorak will help with carpal tunnel syndrome? I've noticied most of my issues happen when typing with keys off the home row. Could it help? I don't want to put in the extra time on the keyboard relearning if it's not going to make a difference.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Ten Thumbs Typing Tutor so far. I'm using the free trial version - I want to see how far it'll take me. After that, if I'm really impressed with the program, I'll buy it. We'll see.
I don't have carpal tunnel, but I do have stress in my joints - but that's probably at least partially caused by my weird genetic joint disorder. Point being that I want to see if Dvorak really does help with that. andi, excellent question.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Ok yea I totally thought you were refering to the composer and I got excited because I love him.
But an anecdote about Dvork keyboards: One of my housemates uses it and half the time we forget that he does. When we go to use his computer, it always comes out messed up, especially when trying to put in a password. Then we yell at him and he tells us to hit Alt-Shift.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Ah, more suckers duped by the dvorak swindle. Way to let memes run your life!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Hey, thanks for the insult, PC. No, really. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I'm thinking about switching to Betamax. What do you think about THAT, Primal Curve?
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I say that holistic medicine will cure you of your substandard technology ailments, Jon Boy!
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
Some years ago I tried out dvorak for a week or so. I gave up mostly because I didn't want to change my keybindings (or my muscle memory, which was the other option) for vim. And since I don't have wrist problems and my typing is fast enough, I figured I'd leave well enough alone. I do know a guy who uses dvorak and vi (nvi, actually) and still uses h-j-k-l to move around. It's really a testiment to how plastic our brains really are.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: I say that holistic medicine will cure you of your substandard technology ailments, Jon Boy!
You think vitamins and exercise are the cure for everything, huh? Maybe I'll even switch to Apple while I'm at it.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
quote: You think vitamins and exercise are the cure for everything, huh? Maybe I'll even switch to Apple while I'm at it.
An apple a day...
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
One of the main outcomes of the article is that it fairly roundly debunks the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard, even if that is not its intended purpose.
You really should read it in its entirety, it's interesting and enlightening. Some choice quotes:
quote:Farrell and Saloner mention the typewriter keyboard as a clear example of market failure.15 So too does the textbook by Tirole.16 Both works cite David's article as the authority on this subject. Yet there are many aspects of the Qwerty-versus-Dvorak fable that do not survive scrutiny. First, the claim that Dvorak is a better keyboard is supported only by evidence that is both scant and suspect. Second, studies in the ergonomics literature find no significant advantage for Dvorak that can be deemed scientifically reliable. Third, the competition among producers of typewriters, out of which the standard emerged, was far more vigorous than is commonly reported. Fourth, there were far more typing contests than just the single Cincinnati contest. These contests provided ample opportunity to demonstrate the superiority of alternative keyboard arrangements. That Qwerty survived significant challenges early in the history of typewriting demonstrates that it is at least among the reasonably fit, even if not the fittest that can be imagined.
quote:The view that Dvorak is superior is widely held. This view can be traced to a few key sources. A book published by Dvorak and several co-authors in 1936 included some of Dvorak s own scientific inquiry.19 Dvorak and his co-authors compared the typing speed achieved in four different and completely separate experiments. conducted by various researchers for various purposes.
quote:The Navy study, which seems to have been the basis for some of the more extravagant claims of Dvorak advocates, is also flawed. Arthur Foulke, Sholes's biographer, and a believer in the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard, points out several discrepancies in the reports coming out of the Navy studies. He cites an Associated Press report of October 7, 1943, to the effect that a new typewriter keyboard allowed typists to ''zip along at 180 words per minute'' but then adds 'However, the Navy Department, in a letter to the author October I4, 1943 by Lieutenant Commander W. Marvin McCarthy said that it had no record of and did not conduct such a speed test, and denied having made an official announcement to that effect.''23 Foulke also reports a Business Week story of October 16, 1943, that reports a speed of 108, not 180, words per minute.
quote:The most recent studies of the relative merits of keyboards are found in the ergonomics literature. These studies provide evidence that the advantages of the Dvorak is either small or nonexistent. For example A. Miller and J. C. Thomas conclude that "the fact remains however that no alternative has shown a realistically significant advantage over the Qwerty for general purpose typing."
You should also note that the oft-repeated story related in the article about qwerty being designed to slow down typists to prevent jamming is only included anecdotally as an example of the kind of claims Dvorak supporters make. The researcher behind this article finds no such claim in reality.
quote:As an empirical example of market failure, the typewriter keyboard has much appeal. The objective of the keyboard is fairly straightforward: to get words onto the recording medium. There are no conflicting objectives to complicate the interpretation of performance. But the evidence in the standard history of Qwerty versus Dvorak is flawed and incomplete. First, the claims for the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard are suspect. The most dramatic claims are traceable to Dvorak himself, and the best-documented experiments, as well as recent ergonomic studies, suggest little or no advantage for the Dvorak keyboard.
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