This is topic Yelling IS abusive. in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
This was brought up in another thread, and it was said that yelling is bordering abuse, but not quite crossing over into abusive territory.

I will have to strongly disagree, and this is coming from a seasoned yeller.

Ever since i can remember, my father has been a supporting and loving man. But he was also quick to raise his voice when upset. Often times it would happen almost immediately with little or no provocation. Worse, he would growl through his teeth, which i called the whispered yell.

I too have a bad temper, and have been quick to resort to yelling most of my life. And i am oh so very ashamed because of it.

You see, when i was young, whenever my father would yell i would cringe in fear and terror. My father never raised a hand to any of us (neither parent did, i was spanked less than 5 times in my life, and only under extreme life threatening circumstances), but his voice could cut deep, oh so deep, so that i would tremble in fear and cry uncontrollably. The only thing yelling succeeded in was to fear, seriously fear, angry dad. It would leave me feeling helpless, powerless, and inadequate. It was painful, oh so very painful.

I have inflicted that pain on others. People have cowered and feared me when i yelled. My face gets contorted and twisted and i just have rage overcome me when i yell. it does not soothe or settle me but only angers me further when i yell. I know that i cause others great pain whenever i yell, and it is something that i am trying ever so hard to curb. It is hard. While i have never raised a hand in anger, i have no delusions about how abusive my yelling is/isn't.


that is all...

[ October 31, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
::hugs Ben::

Ni!
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Huh-- all my yelling does is make me loose my voice.



But I'll consider that a gift.

EDIT: In other words, yelling at my children or at my wife has never been an effective motivator. I'm just not imposing enough, I guess.
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I too consider yelling to be abusive.

Ask Niki how many times I have yelled at her (or I'll save you the trouble, its somewhere in the range of 0-2).

I only ever yell when I completely lose control, and that almost never happens. Partly because it is abusive, but also because it is just plain counter-productive.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I have trouble not yelling back when someone's yelling at me.

But luckily none of my friends and family cowers in the face of yelling. Not to say that yelling is my typical means of communication -- I haven't yelled at someone in probably a year and a half. My TV, on the other hand, gets a regular *sschewing, especially during football season.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I think it CAN be, but isn't always, whereas hitting someone almost always IS abuse, unless it is spanking a child. Between adults in a relationship hitting is ALWAYS abuse.


Not that yelling is a good thing, but sometimes it allows for a release of anger that needs to be let out...
 

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Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Hum. No? I mean, it all depends on context, isn't it? Yelling can be an abuse as often as not.
 

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Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
 
Which is worse, yelling and getting the issue in the open or bottling it all up and allowing simmering resentment in your relationships?
 

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Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
 
My parents have never yelled. Ever. I think if they did after all this time I would be... very, very shook up. I don't know what other families are like, though. Maybe it's also dependent a bit on what kind of yelling, what frequency, what cultural background. Hmm.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I don't think yelling really gets the issue out in the open.

I don't have any really good examples though because for the most part, when my ex-boyfriends have yelled at me, they'd have been wrong whether or not they raised their voices.

But I do think it's rather abusive. I absolutely cannot stand being yelled at, although I usually end up yelling back.

The same goes for insults.

-pH
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Honestly? I think we've all become awfully darned sensitive if yelling is *abusive*. Because, if it is, my 3 year old is abusive. It's just noise if that's how you choose to take it. It would be foolish to take my 3 year old's loud objections personally, so I don't. Even "I HATE you!"

What's abusive is what we say when we're angry; the volume just makes it scary for some people. But the right whispered words could be far, far more abusive than carefully edited yelled ones.
 

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Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
*nods to jeni*
 

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Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
 
I said in the other thread that I don't necessarily consider yelling to be abuse, and, well, I don't. Of course, (as has been mentioned) this depends on what is being said in the yelling as well - I once dated a guy whose favorite method of communication was to shout horrible names and obscenities at me. Was that abuse? Absolutely. He never laid a finger on me but the things he said left me feeling just as broken and terrible as if he had hit me (that said, I have never been hit by a guy, so I am NOT trying to say that being yelled at is worse or equal than physical abuse - but it still hurts a lot.) But when I was younger and my mom yelled at me for not doing something that she had already asked me to do upwards of three times, I think I deserved it, and it didn't upset me. It just showed me how much frustration I was causing her, which using a normal tone of voice would not have done. Everyone who has said that yelling is not the best way to express emotion is probably right, it's not, but in some cases it does work. Sometimes when I'm frustrated I'll yell for no resaon because it's my way of getting it all out and venting. There are times when yelling is appropriate and times when it's not. I believe that two people simply yelling at eachother during an argument is not an abusive situation, assuming the things they are saying are not being said out of cruelty or viciousness, and actually have a valid point. I think it would be great if a relationship could survive with out the occasional yell-match, but I don't think it's an unhealthy one if it can't.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I think yelling can definitely be abusive.

The big problem as I see it is that yelling can completely shut down the person being yelled at, especially if most responses to the yelling result in more yelling and maybe even non-personal violence.

There are healthier ways to let out emotion than yelling. Yelling is the result when emotions are bottled up for too long. Rather, it's best to communicate calmly.

Yelling makes the other person feel bad, as if they are responsible for the other person's yelling and if they respond in kind or to defend their actions, the situation only escalates. So the person learns to bow their head when the other yells at them, suck it in, and resolve to do better next time. It can break the yellee's spirit.

So yeah.. yelling=bad.

Edit: based on the post above mine: I think there is a definite difference between two people yelling at each other and one yelling at the other. Neither are good, but the second is worse, since the other in the second situation is not yelling back for a reason, perhaps from fear of escalation.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I don't think anyone's arguing that yelling is a healthy means of communication, nor that it can't be abusive.

But it doesn't have to be, and it isn't always. It depends a lot on the situation, and the temperment of the person on the receiving end. Rarely have I yelled at my parents or brother and thought afterwards, "That was the best way to handle that situation." But that doesn't mean it was abusive. As someone else mentioned, it also depends on what is being yelled.

The yelling Avadaru mentioned from her ex definitely sounds abusive.

But I don't agree with the assessment that yelling is wrong.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Me too, being yelled t when I was younger made me cry.

Now it just makes me angry in turn because I'm at a age where I feel my parental father makes stupid decisions.

For example I am as some of you may recal 18, but my father seems to forget that I am perfectly capable of forming some of my own decisions and we argue alot more now over it.

Whenever I catch him in a logical fallacy as in I catch him making a contradiction or point out that something doesn't make sense his general responce is to say "shut up, you have to learn how to obey!" or soemwhere along the lines that I am to listen to everything he says and take it as truth I argue that this isn't so ans that by doing so makes him only a petty tyrant, and enforces this by threatening to lock up my 2000$ computer in the van or other similar threats.

I know curse at him in Chinese ya I am so moving out come summer his behavior is just too random and illogical he'll get angry over little things and somehow drag up an event from 3 years ago as a reason to justify his anger etc.

My sister in the mean time is even more controlling she says she's "helping me" but doing so in ways so strict and controlling that my instant responce is to struggle, she tried to enforce a 1:30 hour time limit (over the summer) to my computer time I cheated at every oppurtuniy .

And here's more irrationality of my father, he'll even let me cheat and turns a blind eye but if say my sister catches me he'll get angry and yells at me for cheating etc.

And finally, the #1 reason why my famly if effed up, we got into a 2-3 hour yelling match over whether or not I could listen to classical music while doing homework, if my whole family to break out into anarchy over something so petty then I think something if effed up to begin with. But of course my sister blames it all on me and says it was ALL my fault.

more to come if anyone is interested.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
I have a very loud voice, and thus I have a very powerful yell. Saturday night, some of our neighbors were having a very loud, drunken party including a cranked-up stereo, that lasted into the wee hours of the night. I finally got so fed up that I went outside and yelled at the top of my lungs. They were too drunk to do anything about it, so my yelling was fruitless.

But it was really embarassing the next day to explain to my Sunday School class why my voice was so hoarse.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I definitely change pitch with my boys sometimes, or speak a little louder (n I wouldn't call it yelling since I normally talk fairly quietly). It's just that they don't hear me, sometimes. It's like I turn into the teacher in a Charlie Brown cartoon. They are vaguely aware that I speak, but the words don't sink in.

So I project a little. The difference is that they usually laugh instead of cowering in fear. They know I'm not exactly HAPPY but they also know I won't hurt them. Robert likes to stick out his lower lip and say, "Mommy yell" in baby talk. When he does that, I usually go, "Oh, yeah, I'll show YOU" and tickle him.

If I do raise my voice in actual anger (and I have before) THAT is bad. I usually apologize right away and make a show of putting myself in Time Out.

But I understand what it is to be afraid of a parent who is screaming at you. My Dad was a sergeant in the Army, and although he never hit me, when he yelled I believed he could.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I believe emotional abuse is a legitimate and serious concern. However, I do not at all believe that yelling by itself constitutes emotional abuse.

Further, I think saying it does broadens the definition of "abuse" to the point of uselessness, and compounds the harm done to those who really have been abused, by making people more dismissive of abuse in general.
 

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Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
 
<blinks>

Parents putting themselves in Time Out.

Now that *is* impressive ... I am awed. Must remember if ever I am a parent.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I do it because it makes it clear to them that I am not above following the rules, either. If I lose my temper or act in a way that I wouldn't want them to act - you better believe I put myself in time out. Or put myself on Computer Restriction or something.

It helps remember to hold my temper, and it lets them know that I'm not above following my own rules. It's the same principle as the Swear Jar or whatever. It started one day when I was so frustrated with the boys for no cleaning up their toys that I cursed and started to cry. Ron just pushed me toward the stairs and said, "Mama, you need a time out. Go clean your room. I'll handle this."

It has worked well for us, and the boys get a kick out of it.
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
I like that, Olivet! I needed to do that today... having spent most of my day yelling at my classes I have to sadly agree with Ben. I feel bad, and it doesn't make them respect me at all. So tonight's job is to read my behaviour management book and find some strategies that do work!
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
you have to sadly agree with me?

nobody ever gleefully agrees with me.

*sigh*
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
*gleefully agrees with Ben, then beats him*
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
...Sadly because it makes me sad that I was abusive to my students today. Not because I'm agreeing with you!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 

quote:

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So tonight's job is to read my behaviour management book and find some strategies that do work!

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quote:

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I think it CAN be, but isn't always, whereas hitting someone almost always IS abuse, unless it is spanking a child. Between adults in a relationship hitting is ALWAYS abuse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jonathan Howard:
My father rarely yells. He moans loudly, and cries out loud when my mother nags him overboard, but very rarely yells.

It's intimidatory (sp?), and far, FAR worse than physical violence, if used "correctly". I never wept, in the past ~10 years, of physical pain; but from yelling? Absolutely.

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quote:

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Further, I think saying it does broadens the definition of "abuse" to the point of uselessness, and compounds the harm done to those who really have been abused, by making people more dismissive of abuse in general.

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quote:

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Dagonee, are you suggesting that only physical acts to an individual are abusive?

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No. I'm suggesting that making yelling the equivalent of abuse is short-sighted.

The title doesn't say yelling can be abusive. It says it is abusive.

The acts I mentioned are abusive in probably 99.9% of the cases, even when they only happen once. If all you know is "He pistol whipped his wife yesterday," then you can reasonably draw a conclusion of abuse, subject to additional disclosure.

If someone says, "He yelled at his wife yesterday," you cannot reasonably reach a conclusion of abuse absent additional information.
 

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Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
 
Only a totally insane person could ever say my sisters and I were ever abused by our parents. But we were yelled at. If we were being very bad, or whatever. No instances come to mind, but I know at times our parents yelled at us. Not often, but it happened. We were rarely spanked, I don't remember ever being spanked and I only remember three incidents in which a sister was. And I know when I was yelled at I was never even for a moment afraid my parents would hurt me. It never crossed my mind parents would hurt their children. I was afraid I might end up having to clean the bathroom for not listening, but nothing more than that.

Once my sister and I heard my father give a talk on child-raising, and ever after we often interrupted his scoldings (or yellings) with "Daddy, talk with us not TO us" or other quotations from his speech.

I think with children, yelling being abusive depends on how it's employed. With spouses/SOs...I don't know that I'd call it abusive all the time, but I'd certainly find it a sign of very bad communication and a serious problem, and if anyone I date yells at me, we will have a conversation about rules for conversation then and there, with no yelling and no insulting top on the list. Except with my sisters, I don't yell when I get angry. If someone is yelling at me, it makes me less likely to yell back and more likely to be very calm and even voiced.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I don't do being yelled at anymore. I agree that it is abusive. If there's something you need for me to know, then tell me in a calm voice. If you can't manage that then write me a letter. And don't put it in all caps, either. :-P

Seriously, I've yelled a few times and I'm ashamed of it. It never helps anything. The only message being communicated is "I am angry". You can say that much better in a calm voice and by then leaving the room.

Being angry is not sufficient reason to vent that anger on others. We choose how we react to things. We choose to become angry. That does not mean that we are right. The biggest and meanest is not right because they're big and mean.

I will personally remove myself from any situation in which I am yelled at. If it's a boss, I'll find a new job. If it's anyone else I will leave or move away. The thing is, I'm trying. I'm doing my best in good faith to hold up my end of every relationship. If there's some way I've fallen short, I want to be told and let us talk about it. If my good faith efforts aren't respected enough that I can be spoken to civilly, then I don't really think it's a good situation and I'm thinking I ought to leave it.

I've been yelled at a whole lot in my life. It's not a constructive or positive thing at all. I've finally come to the point that I don't have to be anymore. It's a good point to be.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Let me throw in another alternative here. Words, without being raised, can be abusive as all get-out, too. A loud voice is not required.

Picture a mother telling her child that the child is ugly, unloveable, useless, fat, stupid, and unloveable, so unloveable that if a mother could never love her, then no one else ever would either. Imagine this woman going on into detail for 20 minutes with more on that theme. Imagine that lecture every day, sometimes several times a day, for years.

Would you call that abuse? I would. And yet, not once did that woman ever raise her voice or even, for that matter, use profanity or name calling.

Sure, yelling *can* be abusive, but is not, in an of itself, automatically so.

And that's speaking from the point of view of someone who's been on the receiving end of it all.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Wait a second... Why is it abuse if two adults hit each other but it's perfectly ok to hit a small child? The spanking thing never makes sense to me.. All the times I got hit were for very small things like leaving the ketchup out or something.
I think that yelling and nagging can break a person and wear them down and that's the last thing people seem to need.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Yelling can be abusive.

But so can whispers.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Just because it's possible to be abusive without yelling doesn't mean that yelling in anger isn't abusive. I think it always is. And it's always counterproductive, too.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
NO, IT'S NOT!


 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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Just because it's possible to be abusive without yelling doesn't mean that yelling in anger isn't abusive. I think it always is.

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quote:

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And it's always counterproductive, too.

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Probably. But so are lots of behaviors during arguments that don't get labeled "abusive."
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Isn't sorrow different from anger when it comes to abusiveness? All emotions are not equal.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Anger is a legitimate emotion and expression of anger is a legitimate thing to do.

Anger can be expressed in a harmful manner, but it is not the root of abuse, nor is it present in all abuse incidents (at least no openly). Other emotions can be expressed in just as harmful a manner.

I think coercive control is the root of abuse, and this can extend from a lot of different emotional roots.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
You are missing Dags' point, Tatiana. He didn't say tears were abusive; he made an analogy.

yelling:abuse::crying:manipulative

And I agree with him entirely. Tears can be manipulative, and yelling can be abusive. But I sincerely doubt either can be so labeled across the board.

[Addit: And he replied faster than I did, too. ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
But you replied better, I think.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
What is the difference? Depends, really...there are times when you don't have the time to explain to a 2 year old WHY they should do something. It might be a danger issue, like crossing the road, or touching a hot stove,or it may be another issue completely; but I don't think spanking a child is abusive in all cases.

I have seen children who don't respond to other methods well, at least not at first. I have also been in situations where how I got them to listen wasn't half as important as them just doing what I said, right away, and spanking worked right away. In specific, I saw a child run away from adults constantly into parking lots and roads...not from fear but because he had never been punished for misbehaving in public. He thought it was funny, of all things.

His mother had tried all sorts of methods, but eventually she went to spanking, and it worked. He started listening to her, which was the important part, so his life was not in danger from passing cars any more.


Keep in mind that I don't see it as the best way most of the time, and I have seen people hit their child abusively...


But sometimes sparing them a spanking only leads to other, more serious problems.

Children are NOT little adults, as much as they would like us to treat them as such. They are not always the best judge of what is best for them, and treating them like they have the necessary discretion to make most decisions at a very young age is a sure sign if trouble to come, IMO. An adult, for the most part, DOES know better most of the time, and we have the responsibility to make sure they are raised right and kept safe.


We have no such responsibility to other adults, and we do not have the right to act that way towards them either.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
KAYLA WINS THE THREAD.

****

Synesthesia, at the risk of diverting the thread, IMO, spanking can be an effective way of getting the attention of a child who will not be reached any other way. Understand that when you are dealing with a small child, it is not the same as dealing with an adult. You're not dealing with a rational human being. You're dealing with, in many cases, a barely civilized savage. A very cute savage who carries your heart around with them. Who is currently throwing a temper tantrum in his airplane seat and won't sit to be buckled in for landing. In cases like that, a firm quick attention getting smack on the bottom reminds him that he is not in his cave and needs to behave accordingly.

Is that the ONLY way to deal with it? No, but it's not abuse either. IMO, of course.

I spanked my son. I've spanked my daughter, though thankfully, I think we're about done with that now. It's not a really effective method of correction, but it is pretty effective for getting the attention of the child completely and immediately. In that sense, it has its uses and cannot be equivilated to going around smacking other adults as a method of building relationships.
 

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Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
 
For the longest time, I considered my dad's yelling at me to be a show of power that went beyond what was needed for any given situation he was yelling at me. It was as if he forgot I was his daughter and not some Marine like him who signed up for a little yelling and roughness.

Did I consider it abusive? Not at the time.

Do I consider it abusive now? Only very slightly. I will admit to having an initial fear of any man that yells, not even at me, just in front of me but that fear usually goes away and where I used to burst into tears and hide my face, I now tend to yell back. Women yelling at me, on the other hand...it doesn't affect me in even a similar fashion and it never has. Sure I feel bad for doing something to deserve it or I get upset for someone thinking I deserved it but it's not the fear that I get from men.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

quote:

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and cannot be equivilated to going around smacking other adults as a method of building relationships

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Unless you play football, of course....


 

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Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
 
Ah, the perilous waters of verbal abuse. I don't know what's what anymore in that area, but I don't think anyone does, really... not even the authorities. My two cents is that yelling or not yelling doesn't have much to do with whether it's abuse, but it's how often and how controlled and what's said and how long it lasts. Kind of how I feel about spanking kids. Moderation in all things. Extreme moderation.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 

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What is the difference? Depends, really...there are times when you don't have the time to explain to a 2 year old WHY they should do something. It might be a danger issue, like crossing the road, or touching a hot stove,or it may be another issue completely

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quote:

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My kids ride in a stroller until about 4

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That, to me, is a lot more damaging than a few scraped knees.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
romanylass,
What is your method of discipline? Do you find that your children obey you adequately? Do they behave?

My question isn't meant to imply that non-spankers have rowdy children or vice versa. I'm just wondering what you do and how it works. I need ideas for when I have kids.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
I'm not talking about scraped knees. Scraped knees, yes, they get then in the back yard.I'm talking about keeping them confined until they will know not to run into the street. That's the issue- people who defend spanking by saying "It's better to spank your kid for running into the street than to let them get hit by a car." I think it's way more humane to keep a kid in a stroller than hit them.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I personally don't find child restraints all that humane. I'm referring to the child leashes and things of that sort, which I'm afraid a four year old in a stroller would fall into.

Spanking is a way to get children to obey, and it's one of many. But more specifically, it's negative reinforcement for when they don't obey. You still have to have some method of discipline (Katarain's question above)?

Wouldn't that method be effective when in public, too?
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
With younger kids, redirection or time out. As they get older, infractions earn time out in their room, restrictions, extra chores, or the ultimate, lines. (ex., "I will not call my sister names" 10X.)When we don't manage to prevent dangerous situations, we shout "danger", and the kids know we mean it.

My kids are by no means perfect (My oldest is banned from any sweets today, which is real punishment the day after Halloween) but I have several friends who do spank, whose kids are no better behaved than mine. I'm not sure one or the other produces better results, or more obedient kids. In any case, I would ahte my kids to be obedient to my because they're afraid of me.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
El, are you saying it's more humane to hit a child than to have them ride in a stroller? If a toddler hates the stroller and fights, yes, then look for another method.

If my kids disobey in public, I threaten one of the above. If we are somewhere they want to be, or planning to buy them somnething they want, that's usually a good incentive. (I don't usually plan a bribe purchase just to get them to behave though, unless I really must go somewhere, before their dad comes home, and they're grouchy already).
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I could nolt have kept Liam in a stroller at age 11 months unless I used duct tape. As SIGNIFICANT amount of duct tape (which I never actually used, but contemplated on more than one occassion.He was too young to understand incentives and too clever to keep hold of with complicated safety devices. The longest it ever took him to figure out a child-proof device was a day and a half. That was a refrigerator lock.

Liam didn't hate the stroller, but if we went one way and he wanted to go te other, he would ditch us like a bad date. Little sucker was fast, too.

The end result was that I never took the kids out anywhere unless I had my husband with me. That way, if Liam got loose and bolted, one of us could catch him without leaving Robert standing by his brother's empty stroller.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Thanks for answering, romanylass.

Consistency is probably the most important aspect to any discipline plan. I learned that as a teacher.

I can't say I'm against spanking, but I also don't think that spanking should cause any damage or real pain. Maybe sting for a little while. I don't know if I'd use it or not. Other methods are more attractive.

Ever watch Desperate Housewives? One of the mothers doesn't believe in spanking either, but she threatens it ALL the time. Her kids just ignore the threats.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Also, Liam was (and remains) essentially un-redirectable. He's very single-minded and self-motivated.

"Tubthumping" could be his theme song. I'm glad he's that way, especially now that he is old enough to understand whythings are a bad idea. However, I spent a significant part of his first four years just keeping Mr. Impulsive alive.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
so liam is a late night partying playboy then?
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
No, but if he gets knocked down, he gets up again, and you're never gonna keep him down.


 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
olivia:
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I guess it depends on your definition of "humane". Spankings don't actually cause that much physical pain (at least, they're not supposed to). If you give me the choice now between a punch in the stomach or being handcuffed to my chair I take the punch every time.

Although I was like Liam as a child. The words "childproof" did not apply to me. And I disregarded every parental directive that I deemed unfair.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
Livvie, Liam and my Livvie would make a pair. I STILL hold her hand most of the time. We did the tag teaming for a long time with her, too.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by romanylass:
I'm not talking about scraped knees. Scraped knees, yes, they get then in the back yard.I'm talking about keeping them confined until they will know not to run into the street. That's the issue- people who defend spanking by saying "It's better to spank your kid for running into the street than to let them get hit by a car." I think it's way more humane to keep a kid in a stroller than hit them.

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That's fine, you are entitled to raise your children as you wish to...but calling spankings, preeoviding that is what they really are, abuse is incorrect IMO....and I have the same right you do, to raise MY children as I see fit.


I also feel it demeans the word abuse, which is a slap in the face to those who really were abused. Not that you intended it as such, but still....
 

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Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
 
I only start yelling when someone else does first. At that point their emotional so they either eventually work out that yellings not going to get the anywhere and so stop, or else break down and cry. What I do next depends on the person but I don't think yelling is abusive, just a sign that someone is emo which is very easy to tease them over <grin>.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Actually, I was trained (for my former job with the government) that one should always speak more softly when a person raises his or her voice to you. It's calming. They have to be quiet to hear you. Plus, not getting riled up actually make you seem more secure. In a sense, it makes you seem more threatening, because you are not behaving in either a fearful way or an equal dominant display.

Sounds like hocum, but it works. I have subdued men twice my size, merely by following those rules.

Sorry for the OT post.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I'm afraid I'm gonna need you to define "subdued".
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Calmed them down by not reacting un a usual way when they stood up during the interview, shouting and looking for something to throw. Even had one guy pull a punch on me.

I'm proud of the fact that I never had to push the panic button, during my career. I was able to talk them all down. Only a few times did one ever insist on speaking to the 'man in charge' (who was actually a woman). The guy had issues with females, so we got a supervisor to sort of imply he was the boss of the office, and the guy eased up immediately.

Not to imply that I was not trained to, you know, hurt people, just that I was rather better at the head games. Plus, the only hand-to-hand thinga I really excelled at were the ones intended to maim. I was never any good at wristlocks. Good at breaking them, yes, but not great at making them stick.

I find physical violence distasteful, despite having a knack for it
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
To take the discussion back to yelling for a moment, emotions are all valid, but expressing an emotion "at" someone may not be. That is, if you get angry and go outside and yell at the sky, that's perfectly okay. If you are angry and your body language conveys the fact, but your voice and demeanor are controlled, then that is not just okay but even far more effective than yelling. Just like Olivia said, being quiet is by far the better and more powerful course.

Yelling at someone in anger is an act of violence. It can be used defensively, for instance screaming when someone attacks, or warning a potential attacker to get back. But almost always when someone yells at someone else in anger, particularly someone physically smaller or weaker, they are being abusive.

The thing is, anger can be your master or your servant. If you are trying to bring about some positive change in your situation, anger can be a fuel that motivates you to go beyond your current paradigms and seek radical solutions. For instance, anger at your boss can prompt you to begin looking for a new job. When you are yelling in anger, though, you have become the servant of your anger, rather than the reverse. Yelling does not ever serve the cause of positive change. It only browbeats and bullies and threatens. It serves only in relationships that are based on power and coercion. In relationships built on love, trust, and freewill, on a willing and joyful bond between people that all parties are happy to maintain and strengthen, then yelling only acts to destroy.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I hate yelling. It often made me cry, and it always made me lose respect for the person who was yelling. Being a normal child, i.e. always looking for a way out of obedience, it also meant that the yeller had just given up moral authority and therefor no longer had to the right to tell me to do anything anyway. I just hate it. I don't hang around kids so I don't know if I would do it, but I hope not. I don't even like sharp voices. It kills trust.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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Actually, I was trained (for my former job with the government) that one should always speak more softly when a person raises his or her voice to you. It's calming. They have to be quiet to hear you. Plus, not getting riled up actually make you seem more secure. In a sense, it makes you seem more threatening, because you are not behaving in either a fearful way or an equal dominant display.

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