I apologize if someone has already started a thread on this, but I just read it and agree wholeheartedly with the essay.
This essay hits very close to home for me since my husband and I separated in July.
I was very unhappy in the marriage for years, but refused to leave because I don’t believe in divorce as an option in marriage. My family doesn’t divorce and the people I spend time with are, for the most part, part of intact families. Sadly, my beliefs were naïve and I finally left when I realized I couldn’t protect my children without the court’s help.
Despite appreciating the fact that separation was an option, I am just as appreciative of the people who love me enough to say that if my husband gets better and I choose to bring him back into our lives, they will accept him. They support my decision to leave and (in the case of my family) don’t like my husband, but if there is a possibility that the family could safely live under one roof again, they will make him feel welcome again.
The only thing I see missing from the essay is the idea that many of the problems that lead to divorce were present when the couple was dating. IMO, not only is each of us responsible for doing everything in our power to uphold the contract of marriage, but we are each ultimately responsible for our choice of a mate. In hindsight, I feel completely responsible for marrying and bringing children into the world with a man whom I knew was damaged. To justify my error, I thought that the good outweighed the bad, that age would mellow him and that between his family and me, we could heal him. I was wrong and I shouldn’t have gambled with something as precious as the lives of children.
The portion of the essay that I found unbearably sad was this quote:
quote:… two-thirds of divorces end low-conflict marriages, in which the parents divorce because they are unhappy or unfulfilled, or have other problems that are not seriously threatening.
I don’t see how people with children can put their own happiness above the mental health of their children. We have a responsibility to lose sleep when the kids are sick, turn-off the TV when they need our help or attention, get them to school and pick them up on time, teach them respect and give them respect. Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
quote: "Quite aside from the fact that the proportion of emotionally troubled adults is around three times as great among those whose parents divorced as among those from intact families, no amount of success in adulthood can compensate for an unhappy childhood or erase the memory of the pain and confusion of the divided world of the child of divorce" (p. xx.)
My question isn’t regarding those who divorce due to safety or mental health reasons. In those cases, I’m sure that there is an overall increase in security and happiness for the children when the abusive parent is removed from the home. My question is about those people who don’t think that their lives are bad, but believe that their lives could be better with a different or no partner.
It reminds me of when I was little and my parents chose to spend money on a stereo when we didn't have any food in the house. Frankly, IMO when we make the decision to have children, we give up the right to be selfish.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I haven't read that article, the snipets suggest it is what I expected, but it seems that one just cannot win. If you do not get a divorce, then the kids will be aware of the coldness and arguing that their parents are having and be traumatized by that. If you get a divorce, people will accuse you of being selfish and not thinking of the children. A person just can't win. These are personal issues that vary from one person to the next and you can't just use some sweeping sort of statement like all children whose parents divocred will suffer as adults, because that is not always the case. Because in some cases it might be better for the children. It is hard to decide and up to the individual person. If people have exhausted every effort and have tried their best and it still doesn't work, than what other solution is there? Whatever people do, they need love and compassion to get them through it and not judgement...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:These are personal issues that vary from one person to the next and you can't just use some sweeping sort of statement like all children whose parents divocred will suffer as adults, because that is not always the case. Because in some cases it might be better for the children.
Well, like you said, you haven't read the article...
Which did not say that children are invariably better off if the parents stay together. Also, children of divorce do suffer, in every case, period...just because divorce is never a good thing. Sometimes it's the best thing, in a given situation (beating, drug addiction, cheating are obvious possibilities), but it's never something the child will be happy about. At best, the divorce will be a positive ending to an unhappy relationship, which the child will remember.
Incidentally, the article is about a book of an actual child of divorce, so before you jump on the 'rush to judgement' soapbox, consider that.
People rarely try their very best.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
My parents divorced when I was 9. I know I was affected by it. I know my adult life and relationships have all been colored by it. I also know had my parents stayed together, I would have grown up in a miserable situation. I would not have seen how strong a woman my mother is because she would not have had to raise us mostly alone. She would have stayed with a cheating husband and they would have driven in little barbs each day into each other and we would have had to suffer that with them. Or worse, think that was a normal marriage. It's kind of funny. I was remembering a little creche I had in my room as a kid today and asked my mother if she remembered it. She said she did. I asked if it was around Christmas when they told us they were divorcing and she said it was around New Years and I told her that made sense because I remember going into my room and looking at the creche after they told us. My Mom got real quiet and told me how sorry she was about all of it. I told her basically what I just said here, I think we were better off even though it was very hard. I do think parents should try like hell to make things work. My parents did try after that to stay together for us but it only lasted 3 more months. Some people are just disaterous together. Both my parents went on to marry other people that they are very happy with and have been married close to 20 years in both cases. I told my Mom she was meant to marry my Dad so that I and my Sister could be born. You can't resent forever. I've tried. Sometimes you have to just accept somethings won't work and move on. I just got the book OSC wrote the article on from the library and am really looking forward to reading it. I think I have finally found a good place in my relationship with my Dad. I can't forgive but I can let go a little. I can try to move on. I hope to see what others have to say in this book.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I found the essay thought-provoking, also, LadyDove.
It took a divorce (and eventually a one-year restraining order) to get my former spouse to get serious about the safety issues present in our family due to his behaviors.
He has really changed on so many levels now. We co-parent fairly successfully. I don't know if the changes would stick if we were together - and after repeated promises to change during our marriage, it obviously took a very big whammy of a wake-up call to convince him to consider what he was doing.
I am delighted that he has cleaned his act up, and is capable of parenting our son in a responsible, loving fashion. I am unwilling to reconsider the option of reuniting. Frankly, it terrifies me.
And you nailed it on the head, LadyDove.
"but we are each ultimately responsible for our choice of a mate. In hindsight, I feel completely responsible for marrying and bringing children into the world with a man whom I knew was damaged. To justify my error, I thought that the good outweighed the bad, that age would mellow him and that between his family and me, we could heal him. I was wrong and I shouldn’t have gambled with something as precious as the lives of children."
Marrying him, hoping that our relationship would allow the safety and trust for change, was entirely wrong. And unfair - not only to the child involved, but to us as thinking/feeling adults.
I think a little "judgement" is needed in the whole issue of relationships (marriage and divorce) - NOT as in "shame on you" but as in "thoughtfully considering what we are choosing to embark on" and planning ahead a little. Too many couples (MYSELF INCLUDED) have acted in a hasty fashion.
Thankfully, the old adage "Marry in haste; repent at leisure," no longer holds true for those folks that are in dangerous relationships. That IS a blessing for our times.
It just seems that the pendulum has swung so far to the other side in giving the option to just say when the going gets tough to move on to the next adventure, that the idea of sticking anything out is pretty foreign to us in this culture. In so many areas - not just relationships.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:But the core question remained: In cases where the children's actual lives or health are not in danger (i.e., where there's no abuse or neglect), is it better for children to remain in an unhappy but intact marriage, or to have the conflicted family broken up?
I think it's dangerous to suggest that a war between parents, even when both do care deeply for the children, does not affect the children. Naturally, there are degrees to this but I cannot imagine a single child who does not burst into tears, externally or internally, when his or her parents start fighting, or when the do not speak to one another, or when they say "your mother".
quote:"Quite aside from the fact that the proportion of emotionally troubled adults is around three times as great among those whose parents divorced as among those from intact families, no amount of success in adulthood can compensate for an unhappy childhood or erase the memory of the pain and confusion of the divided world of the child of divorce"
The problem with this statement is the inherent selection bias of the study. Of course, children of families of divorce are going to be more likely to be unhappy adults, not only because they went through divorce but because even before the divorce the child existed in a bad situation. I would also like to suggest (only suggest) that one (or both) of the adults within the relationship, who becomes "bored" as the reason is given in the article, may be 'flawed' from the beginning, and may cause the children to be brought up in a peculiar and harmful way from the very start. The marriage only reaches a critical breaking point much later, after the damage to the child has already occurred, thus also leaving them less able to deal with the divorce when it comes, especially if both parents have disfunctional elements.
The children of marriages that remained intact are more likely to be the children who two perfectly functional human beings who are more capable of bringing up successful children who, supposing through some twist of strange fate caused their parents to seperate, would be better equipped to deal with the divorce.
I'm not suggesting that divorce is not harmful. I'm saying that the study itself has some largely meaningless elements that I feel like should be at least mentioned in the article.
quote:Children are voiceless: they don't write books, they don't vote, they don't usually get interviewed on television....
Children aren't voiceless. We were all children once. When I think about the grown-up children I know, I can't see any correlation between their functionality and the divorce rate. In fact, children of "happy" marriages can be just as messed up as "unhappy" marriages, because I do not believe that the relationship between the adults is the only one we should take into account.
These messed-up grown-up children I am thinking of might have benefitted from a divorce, they might not have- in many cases their parents have quite a good relationship, as marriages go. But I can say that they'd be a lot more functional if their parents or parent hadn't had the issues that he or she or they did. It wasn't the marriage that was the problem, rather the direct adult to child relationship.
EDIT: I also know there to be a form of moral element to this article, and I respect the beliefs that drive it; however, I question the science.
quote:. It is the job of adults to choose mates who will be good parents;
I agree with this statement to some degree. If you marry and intend to raise children you must have some idea that your spouse will be able to not only love but also nuture his or her children. However, I do not believe that "damaged" grown-ups cannot learn to be good parents, or should not at least give it a try.
However, I do not believe that divorce is the problem here.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
I think there's some vagueness regarding the definition of "gratification" that clouds the issue, perhaps.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I found the essay interesting.
But I think the study only shows one point: children whose parents are divorced are affected by it, and often in a negative way.
What it doesn't show is that those same children would have been any better off if their parents had stayed together.
I think most people would agree that a marriage where both parents put in work and effort is better than a divorce. But is a marriage where one (or both) partner(s) is not putting in effort, where parents are fighting continously in front of their children better than divorce?
I think the articles assumes that an "intact" marriage will be one which is fundamentally happy. I don't think that's the case.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
I was much better off with my father out of the picture. He was an alcoholic.
The man didn't even show up for his mother's funeral. All his siblings were there. i was there and so was my mom. He couldn't be bothered.
I don't even know if he's still alive. Sometimes i wonder about him, but for the most part, don't think much about him. Sometimes it's better if the parents go their seperate ways.
He moved out when I was three and I haven's seen him in almost 30 years.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm not sure why people are bringing up addicted, violent, or unfaithful people in regards to this article and its subject. It's said in each, repeatedly, that those three issues are of course perfectly reasonable grounds for divorce.
quote:I think most people would agree that a marriage where both parents put in work and effort is better than a divorce. But is a marriage where one (or both) partner(s) is not putting in effort, where parents are fighting continously in front of their children better than divorce?
But imogen, don't you think it's possible that one or both parents in cases like that aren't putting in effort because they believe that, in the long run, divorce isn't such a bad thing?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Syn, I think that Rakeesh answered your post well.
dawnmaria,
quote:Both my parents went on to marry other people that they are very happy with and have been married close to 20 years in both cases.
Did the remarriage help you develop a healthy relationship model or did you resent the remarriage?
Shan, You're a wonderful mother and a strong woman. I hope that I can come out on the other side of this with a measure of your strength.
Teshi,
quote:However, I do not believe that "damaged" grown-ups cannot learn to be good parents, or should not at least give it a try.
The problem is that they can't just give it a try and then say, "Oops, sorry. I really am lousy at this. Can I get a refund?"
Tom,
quote:
quote:Why do people assume that we don’t have a responsibility to defer our need for gratification in order to provide security and stability for our children?
I think there's some vagueness regarding the definition of "gratification" that clouds the issue, perhaps.
I mean satisfaction. If, as a parent, we want more romance, excitement or (you fill in the blank) in our lives, that desire should take a backseat to our responsibility of providing the basics to our children of food, shelter and emotional and physical security.
imogen,
quote:But I think the study only shows one point: children whose parents are divorced are affected by it, and often in a negative way.
I don't think so.
quote:The questionnaire was given to 1500 "randomly selected young men and women from around the country between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five years old." In order to keep within the bounds of "good" divorces, the participants from divorced families were limited to those who "continued to see both parents in the years after the divorce" (p. 2).
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
LadyDove, I resented my father's new wife and family for a very long time. I felt he left us for this woman. She was who he was unfaithful with and I felt when his new children came along we were second class citizens so to speak. I came to accept the situation a little better when I got older but I still harbor a few bitter moments. They do have a great marriage though. It's obvious they love each other in a way I never saw between my parents. Now my Mother's new husband I have always been very happy about. He is my Pa not my stepdad. I have always felt that he chose us as well as my mother because we got him when I was 16 and my sister was 13. That's alot to take on in my opinion. And I was no prize. I was a rebellious little wench. And when my bio dad said I couldn't come live with him because I'd be a bad influence on his new kids, my Pa told me I'd always have a place in his home and I always have. I didn't want to move to VA when my Pa got transfered, it was my senior year. Dad wouldn't let me stay with him. I didn't speak to him for almost 2 years after that. My Dad is a part of my life now but almost as a friend more then a parent. My Pa walked me down the aisle and if I have a son he'll have his last name for a middle name. He's been there for me from the day we gave my Mom away at the justice of the peace's office 19 years ago. So to answer your question more directly, yes I do think I got a better model for a healthy relationship from my parents new marriages even though I resented the hell out of one of them!
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
But LadyDove, it doesn't (and, really, no study could) show what those children whose parents have divorced would be like if their parents had stayed together.
quote:But imogen, don't you think it's possible that one or both parents in cases like that aren't putting in effort because they believe that, in the long run, divorce isn't such a bad thing?
Perhaps. I guess we can never really tell.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
The problems I have with the essay are exactly the same as the ones Teshi has: it isn't an unbiased report of the effects of divorce on children. Both sides can spout anecdotal evidence for as long as they like, but it doesn't prove in one direction or another how divorce affects the average child. We can't use anecdotal evidence to decide on a societal policy for divorce.
All the study shows is that there is correlation between being an "emotionally-troubled" adult and being the child of divorced parents. There's no reason to assume that one causes the other. There could very easily be an underlying problem causing both of them, such as having immature or otherwise unfit parents.
Until there is proof one way or another on the actual effects of divorce (and divorce alone) on a child, I'm going to suggest that we follow the same policy as before: consider each case individually, and do what will be best in the long run for all concerned.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't think it's possible to show the effects of what if in a study. You know, "Sure it shows that children of divorce are unhappy. But what if their parents had stayed together, would they have been as equally unhappy?"
I think it's kind of expecting a lot for the study to provide alternative reality proof considering our current level of technology.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
The movie the Squid and the Whale comes to mind.
Reading it now and he does have some interesting points. It is frustrating for people not to work out their marriages, to instead run to the arms of another person instead of dealing with their problems directly and working them out, especially for the sake of the children. However, is the disapproval of society really necessary? These decisions, these personal choices from divorce and even abortion are hard enough on a person as it is without societal disapproval. It doesn't help. It doesn't offer real solutions and it just makes things more painful, especially when sometimes it's more than just boredom or our marriage doesn't have spark anymore. There just has to be a broader way of looking at things. I do believe in personal responsibility, in thinking things out, in thinking out every step before marriage and having kids and making all of those major sort of decisions. I just think that when it comes to people's personal issues it's not pure black and white in any case.
Plus, here's another issue to consider. Is it really right for a person to blame all of their problems and failings with dealing with relationships and other people on their parent's and their divorce? I know I have had my share of problems in terms of social phobia and the like, my parents separated due to a whole host of complicated issues when I was just a child and was going through cancer surgery and all of that, but is it really right for me to blame my failings on them? How much is their responsibility for leaving me to be raised by my grandmother and how much of it is up to me to get over this and move on and grow up and accept responsibility for myself?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
(Edit: To Scott) Of course.
So, I guess the best we can say is "We don't know."
**
Don't get me wrong - personally, I think divorce is tragic. My parents separated when I was 21 and divorced last year. I am still upset about it.
But would I be less upset if they stayed together? If they stayed together without changing, no I don't think so. If they stayed together and changed what was going wrong, yes definately. But for a number of reasons personal to my parents, the latter would not have happened.
So divorce wasn't the *best* solution, but it really was the only one.
I think the world would be much better if people did work at their marriages. But some people won't, or can't. And that is an unfortunate reality.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
It's actually quite possible, if you put together the right sets of data, control for all the variables, and then run the regression properly.
You can't, of course, show a "what if" on the individual level, but you can show the average what if.
... I'm not sure exactly how you would put together a study for this particular example (yet - I'm thinking about it now), but economists do it all the time for similar issues.
Edit: Actually, I already have a few ideas... Take a set of five thousand or so broken families (the kids and the parents). After getting all the basic data from them (gender, race, income both before and after the divorce, length of marriage, children's age at time of divorce, cause of divorce, etc), run a decent set of psychological tests on the parents. This set of tests would, preferably, have already been found to show how fit or unfit the subject is as a parent. If not, then it would at least test the type of things that we think shows correlation with being a fit or unfit parent (i.e. emotional stability, warmth towards others, etc.). There should also, of course, be some sort of psychological testing of the children, to see if they’re more emotionally troubled than average.
You’d take all this data, organize it nicely (or get your graduate students to do it), and then run the regression. If you’ve controlled for all of the variables, then it ought to show whether divorce, and divorce alone, tends to lead to more emotionally troubled children/adults. I’d bet the parent’s psychological profiles would be a better indicator than divorce.
Anyways, it’d be an interesting study to do, if one could get funding to do so. I'm not sure if the sample size I've chosen is large enough for the number of variables there'd be, but that's the basic setup...
Edit Again: Of course, I failed to mention you'd need to compare the broken familes against families in which the parents did not divorce. So, yeah, add that in as well.
[ December 04, 2005, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Jhai ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:And it occurred to her that people who know how to be happy will find happiness in the midst of turmoil; and people who are intent on being miserable can find misery in the midst of peace and plenty.
So true.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Scott R, that's the exact problem with this kind of study. Yes, it has findings but if there's no way of disproving what it found it becomes difficult for a definate statement to be made. Combined that with the selection bias that I already mentioned, and the study becomes quite meaningless.
If you're going to make generalizations concerning people, you're going to have have to be able offer a way of creating a counterfactual, which in this case and with this study, is difficult.
I don't think anyone's suggesting that people should get divorced at the drop of the hat, only that this particular study is somewhat meaningless.
It doesn't help that we know that this is not an article written by a reporter, but by someone who has an agenda for writing this particular opinion-article in this particular way. No disrespect, only that in knowing this fact the article is undermined again.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:However, is the disapproval of society really necessary?
I think that society as a whole does render a judgement of what is good and what is not. I would prefer to see at least *some* disapproval for the elective divorce.
Far as I can see, society currently looks at a woman or man who isn't in pursuit of their own happiness as living below their potential. We're all supposed to have perfect figures, a biting sense of humor, money and a rich sexual life. You see these lifestyles celebrated in the media. It gives the impression that if a person is bright and personally empowered, they will not settle for anything less than everything.
Those who are less than fit, nice, middle class and content, are boring. You don't see anyone making a TV series celebrating the every day hero who makes a decision that good enough is good enough.
I believe the elective divorces are, in some cases, symptoms of this drive to live up to one's potential.
I'd prefer to see society push living up to one's commitments and responsibilities.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
One of the things that bothers me about how our society (even here on Hatrack) seems to view divorces is that we don't recognize or at least aren't supposed to say that getting a divorce (at the very least when you have children) almost always represents a failing by both people in one of the most important and serious areas of life.
There's this air when many people talk about their divorces about how it was their spouse's fault that they got divorced. Even if we grant that one person is largely blameless for the breakup of the marriage, they still married this apparently extremely irresponsible person. I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
Getting into a marriage is, to me, a much more important area of concern than getting out a marriage. To me, entering a marriage poorly is more a mark of disrepect to marriage than getting a divorce.
[ December 05, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Can't we have both though? Mostly TV series celebrate the mondane, the boring, they take family life and turn it into something mondane, without passion, without much love for the most parts except in a few instances. But is it possible to have people who don't regard happiness as the most possessions, but instead seek a sense of contentment doing what is really right for them within reason. People who balance following their dreams with living up to their commitments. I for one do not want a perfect figure or tons of money or to have meaningless sex, I only want to become a writer, maybe by some fluke get married... though the thought frightens me a lot... a whole lot.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
I haven't had the time to read the whole thread and article, just snips. But I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
My parents are seperated and didn't divorce. I'm still glad they aren't divorced. My mom has divorced parents and she has trama stories that I don't. I'm much more emotionally healthy than she is and even she admits that too.
I just don't think having fighting parents comes anywhere near the torture of being abandoned, and my parents sure knew how to fight.
Just my experience and 2 cents.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
I remember feeling this way, when my mother's friends were trash talking their exes when I was growing up. But I learned that you have to be careful not to judge.
I was married for 18 years to a man who was to all outside appearances, the perfect spouse. He was thoughtful, a good provider, handsome.. I could go on. Then, out of the blue, he came home and told me he wasn't happy, had decided to make himself happy and to h*ll with me and the children. I *thought* when I got married (and for all but the last few months of my married life) that I was with a man who shared my ideals and goals, and while our life wasn't perfect, I realized that no lifeis perfect, and as long as we were both willing to try, we could make it work.
So yeah, I have a lot of 'issues' with my ex, but only for the cr*p he's pulled since he walked out on me. Not with the mostly good 18 years we spent together.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
dawnmaria,
Thank you for your answer. It is great to be reminded that there are many good men in the world. It sounds like your Pa is one of them.
Is your husband like your Pa?
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
Strangely enough my husband has qualities of both my fathers. Luckily it's mostly the good ones! I am lucky in the fact that I think we got all of our relationship issues done early on. I've known him since my senior year. We've broken up & gotten back together a couple of times. We've dated other people. But we make sense together. We finish each others sentences. I decided to live with him before we got married as a test run if you will. My Pa was not happy with it. Thought it wasn't proper. He asked if my intentions were marriage and I said yes even if he doesn't realize it yet! We lived together 4 years before we got married and then waited 4 years to have a baby. And I was brutally honest before we decided to have children. I jokingly told him I'd rather take the kids to the cemetary to visit then send them for weekend visitation. No, I wouldn't really kill him but I wanted to illustrate for him how serious I felt about divorce. I asked him to really examine how he felt about us and our future before we brought anyone else into this. I was a little nervous because his Dad was like mine and he was from the NEW Family. Iwanted him to truly understand how I felt coming from the other side of that equation. I am glad I did. I had no true concept of how much a child changes your relationship! We were actually talking about it the other day. Anout how childbirth has COMPLETELY changed me. On almost every level. Enough for a seperate thread! But what it came down to is my husband said that maybe that's why so many people divorce after the children. They change. They aren't the same people that got married and maybe you don't always like the new people. When I had my daughter my mother took me aside and told me I had to remember I was also a wife and a woman, not just a mommy and I had to work at keeping the balance. I think that's where she feels she failed. She says she focused just on us and let her relationship flounder. I can see how that can happen. I am so tired by the time my hubby comes home that I just want to hand the baby to him and run screaming into the other room. But we both feel it's important for the muffin to see us together as a couple. So we play together. We hug and kiss together. Not just one on one but as a family unit. Then I run! I am not saying I don't let them play alone while I make dinner etc. or that we don't play alone. No we play alone all day! But we decided early one to show her a parental unit. We come as one being. So far so good. We've had bumps in the beginning adjusting to the new lifestyle but I think we're doing well by her. I think I chose a good Daddy for her. I think coming from what I did made me give it more thought then most people before I had kids because I dont want her to feel like I felt. I am lucky to have essentially grown up with my husband and we've influenced each other for the past 18 years. I think I exposed him enough to Pa that alot rubbed off!
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
I liked the essay, and agreed with a lot of his points, and am planning on reading the book.
My divorce was definitely a personal choice... by my former spouse. After 16 years of marraige and 2 kids, he suddenly met another woman and... that was that. OUr divorce was final just over a year later.
It's been hard on my kids, make no mistake. My son, aged 13 at the time, remembers clearly when the fighting started, and it was after he met this woman. Our marriage had been good... not perfect, but good. But after he met this woman, the "not perfect" was magnified to a huge extent.
In other words, the divorce was his choice. I did all I could to prevent it. To quote my ex's beloved uncle, it was a totally selfish thing to do.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are sometimes divorces like that, no real underlying issues, no abuse, just a selfish decision by someone who decides that there's something better out there.
ALso, to be honest, since we live in a small town, there has been a fair amount of societal disapproval of my ex. It upset him terribly (he blamed me for telling people, when actually it was a friend of his who told, oh, everyone!) but it didn't make him change his mind. I don't know if it would have made a difference if he had known that would happen before-hand. And regarding OSC's recomendation that anyone contemplating divorce read that book, I think it's a great idea, but I'm sure that my ex wouldn't have done so... he was only interested in things that would tell him what he was doing was okay.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I think that's where this book is important.
We have had a plethora of things telling us that divorce is "okay."
It's time for the other side of the coin to get a little attention.
Particularly for those of us who grew up with families that were torn apart by divorce - or, in my case, my parent's multiple marriages and divorces.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
To echo Bob_Scopatz here...
quote: In fact, our lives were basically happy even in the midst of grieving. I did not know of anyone I would have traded lives with. Do you? Would you give up everything in your own life in order to take on everything in someone else's? I doubt it. The burdens you already know you can bear are usually preferable to losing the parts of your life you value most.
Bravo had an Inside the Actor's Studio interview of Michael J. Fox over the weekend. The show is dated 2005, though I don't know if this is the first time it ran. But Fox said exactly the same thing. Parkinson's is a burden but if he could trade it for a different one he wouldn't.
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm conflicted about this. My mother and father were terrible together, just terrible. Neither of them were ready for marriage, and only now -- in their late '50s -- are either of them capable of having stable relationships with their peers. They were completely ill-suited for each other, and ill-suited for permanence with ANYONE.
And yet, had they not gotten together, I would not have been born. And on the balance, I'm rather glad to be alive -- and to have BEEN alive, even with them taking credit for the "rearing."
So I don't know whether "choose your marriage partner more carefully" is really the best advice in MY particular situation, since I've got to think that even a moment's serious thought would have completely prevented my existence.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
As others admitted about themselves, I too married hastily and with a person that, almost immediately, I recognized I was incompatible with. She, of course, felt the same. It was stupidity on both our parts.
But as the years went by, I began to learn what it meant to be married and what love was. Love was not simply this romantic feeling of euphoria and ecstasy. It was work. It was partnership. It was a feeling of you and this person being a team, committment, and security in that committment.
And it began to feel good. Yeah, we had problems. I wasn't the husband she needed me to be. And she wasn't the loving wife I needed. But there were things that we enjoyed doing together. And as our shared history began to grow and grow, my feeling of comfort with her grew. Yeah, she could be verbally cruel and moody. I personally think she suffers from at least a mild case of manic-depression. But I know that I failed her in many ways too. So the blame is on both sides.
About a year after we were married our son was born. He was the best thing we did. She's a good mother and I am a good father. He is a major reason we worked at making this work (aside from our religious beliefs.)
We were coming up on our 7th anniversary. As I said, I had learned to be content in our marriage. I had put too much blood, sweat and tears for it not to be precious to me. And it was precious to me. It was valuable. And I had learned a lot from her and I did (and still do) love her. I had joy. Yeah, there were times I wished I had waited for this our that person or had been patient. But I wouldn't have made a different choice if I had the chance. For one thing, our son would not have been born, and he's worth any pain we suffered.
But as we approached the 7th year, she lost hope. She began spending more time with people from work, one guy in particular. All unknown to me, of course, until I got a letter from her expressing her hopelessness at our situation and her desire to be loved by someone she loved. And it went downhill from there. 6 months later we were divorced and she moved 5 hours away.
I did everything within my power to win her back. I wanted her back. I loved her. And Connor needed his parents together. The hurt and pain she caused me was great, the vicous words, the mocking, the humiliation. But that was me and I'm over it, so it doesn't bother me now. But I saw (and still see) the way our son was hurt by this. A hurt that she feels very guilty about, now. She is a good mother. But she got sidetracked. I think of her feeling like an animal trapped and gnawing off its leg. It hurt her deeply and she feels it. She's remarried now, and I hope she does well. But our son has issues that, while maybe not all of them were caused by the divorce, were certainly made much, much worse. And while our divorce was the most amicable I know of, and we communicate daily peacefully on shared issues, the fact is, our shared custody is incredibly painful to him, the shuffling back and forth, the fact that he is not with us both at the same time. It's mommy now OR daddy now, not mommy AND daddy together. He wants us back together. And that is not going to happen.
It's that selfishness that hurts me the most. I was willing to stick with our marriage (and fight for it) because that is what a grownup does. Just because it turns out you are not completely happy with the person you are with, or because someone better comes along, doesn't mean you have the right to be selfish and hurt your children. Your children's happiness is more important that yours, contrary to popular wisdom.
Yeah, it was both our fault we got married. And it was both our fault that we failed. In most cases (And I am not talking about abuse, alcoholism, abandoment or serial infidelity), I believe that both parties are at fault, even when only one ends up cheating and leaving. But the pain caused to our son and the messiness of his life, the insecurity that COMES UP no matter the reassurance we give him, is the price that he has to pay. Forget about the price I was forced to pay. That's fine. I went into this with my eyes open and it's partly my fault anyway. But he, the completely innocent one, has had to pay for her freedom.
That's the selfishness that angers me. And why societies casualness about 'no-fault' divorce and the utter selfishness portrayed in the media (as in movies like The English Patient) irritate me.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My parents divorced when I was eight or so.
But from what I've seen of my friends, my situation is much different than theirs. My ex-girlfriend's parents were divorced and she rarely ever saw her dad, as he spent most of his time with his other wife. Another friend of mine's parents are divorced and she rarely sees her dad as her parents are now mortal enemies, though they have three children together. Her dad also spends large amounts of time trying to brainwash her brother into thinking their mother is evil and that he should come live with their father.
My parents get along extremely well. My friends didn't realize they were divorced for a long time because they get along so well, and because my dad is over quite often. We're still a tight knit family, despite some rocky roads along the way. If getting divorced was the best thing for them, I'm glad they did it. I haven't felt any negative effects from it, nor has my brother.
I think what matters is for divorced parents to continue to be active in their children's lives. Distance and lack of attendence is what can lead to a lapse in parental influence. Be there, be involved. That, and the benefit of not constantly being in the same space fighting I think could even do better things for your child than staying together for the wrong reasons.
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO: the fact is, our shared custody is incredibly painful to him, the shuffling back and forth, the fact that he is not with us both at the same time. It's mommy now OR daddy now, not mommy AND daddy together.
This is what I'm finding with my kids, who are 14 and 12. Even though our lives are going well, even though we have found happiness in our new situation, they find the back-and-forth very difficult. During the transitions my daughter's sadness is palpable, and it breaks my heart. My son just hates it the shuffling, it's very stressful for him.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
quote: ... and I felt when his new children came along we were second class citizens so to speak.
My Step-Mom said not long ago that she and my Dad chose not to have children together because they didn't want this to happen. I have to respect them for that.
Both of my parents have been remarried for over 25 years each (they divorced when I was about 3 1/2).
My bio parents had a very bitter relationship after the divorce. My Dad never said anything bad about my Mom in front of me. I wish I could say the same for my Mom.
It is really interesting for me with my family. My Mom's parents have been happily married for over 50 years. All four of their children have gotten divorced. Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
quote: Even if we grant that one person is largely blameless for the breakup of the marriage, they still married this apparently extremely irresponsible person. I am tempted to ask, as people are giving me a litanty of complaints about their ex-spouse, what the heck they thought they were doing marrying someone like that.
Ya know what, my first reaction to this was "screw you."
Y know what, until 3 weeks ago I REALLY TRULY thought that he was going to be OK. I thought that we would be able to work out whatever came up.
I never in a million years thought he would come to me and say "I think I'll be happier without you. I want to split up." and that he would, regardless of what my son or I wanted, regardless of how selfish it was.
YES I knew he was not perfect when we were dating. Neither am I. Neither is anyone. He didn't beat me (never has), he didn't cheat on me(never has), he's not an alcoholic. He was too serious, but everyone noticed that he lightened up and became happier and more fun after we'd been together for awhile.
To be able to tell what someone is going to do 6-7 yrs down the road IS NOT easy, or even possibl;e. I did not think he would do this, did not know that he was capable of being SO selfish.
Yeah if he was an abuser there would probably have been warning signs. But to blame ME because he just refuses to be and stay happy with what he has is ridiculous. Sure, 3 years into the marriage, I was starting to realize this. But I had no idea when we got married. To me he seemed like the most wonderful man I'd ever met.
It is EASY to judge other people who'se situation you are not in. But usually you are wrong when you do that. You don't know what was said and how it was said the night we decided to get married. You don't know what our relationship was like before that.
So lay off, because you don't know.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
But seriously I like this article, although I am disturbed that it left me feeling really self righteous...
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
dawnmaria, I’m so happy that you came away with such a positive education and were healthy enough to map out a plan to avoid the pitfalls you witnessed as a child. Your child is very lucky.
ctm,
quote:And regarding OSC's recomendation that anyone contemplating divorce read that book, I think it's a great idea, but I'm sure that my ex wouldn't have done so... he was only interested in things that would tell him what he was doing was okay.
This self-centered, deaf to anything not self-affirming, attitude is almost impossible to overcome. I certainly never found a way to overcome it with my spouse.
Shan,
quote:We have had a plethora of things telling us that divorce is "okay."
It's time for the other side of the coin to get a little attention.
Exactly.
BannaOj,
quote:The burdens you already know you can bear are usually preferable to losing the parts of your life you value most.
I’ve heard that before and agree. I think that no matter how bad our lives get, we know how to “do” our own burdens. That’s one of the reasons I think that in times like these, friends are so precious. They can’t take our burdens, but they can help carry us while we carry them.
Tom,
quote:And yet, had they not gotten together, I would not have been born. And on the balance, I'm rather glad to be alive -- and to have BEEN alive, even with them taking credit for the "rearing."
So I don't know whether "choose your marriage partner more carefully" is really the best advice in MY particular situation, since I've got to think that even a moment's serious thought would have completely prevented my existence.
I have a real problem wrapping my head around this line of thought. See, I shouldn’t exist at all. My bio-father was married and had children with a woman in Indiana when he impregnated my mother in Los Angeles. Obviously, marrying the wrong person wasn’t the only problem in this scenario.
When I talk about being careful to not marry the wrong person and making divorce socially less acceptable, it’s part of the future I hope for my sons. There will be exceptions, but I’d like to see stable/healthy families be the rule.
IanO,
I’m so sorry. I know it’s completely sexist, but I find it so much *less* acceptable for a mother to be selfish. It’s something that I can’t imagine doing, so it feels completely wrong and unnatural to me. No one could pay me enough to live outside of shouting distance of my boys.
Take heart from dawnmaria’s post. I know that I do.
Lyrhawn, Good for your parents. I am not friendly with my spouse at present and I know that I *must* become more friendly to make my kids life as normal as possible. How much time was there between the time they split and the time they became friendly?
mimsies, ::hugs:: All you can do is the best you can do.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't really remember all that well, it was more than a decade ago. But the furthest memory I have back is of them on friendly terms. There was a brief time when my dad was seeing someone else that there was a bit of a rift, but in the end, though I don't know all the details, I think my dad decided to spend more time with us and stopped seeing the other woman and stopped having anything to do with her family.
They were always at least on speaking terms, and he was always around, so at the very least there was contact.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
When I pray, I thank God from the deepest part of my being that my mother finally gave up on my father and got a divorce, ending the hell (broken by brief periods of counselling or whatever). It was the best thing for all of us, including my father.
My mother's re-marriage to a decent man is the only way I ever had an example of what a healthy relationship would be like. I also thank God for my stepfather, btw. I would have spent my adult life trying to replicate the chaos I was accustomed to without that man.
I praise my mother's courage in doing what had to be done to make my happiness possible.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Geez, I don't know if this thread is therapeutic or if it is pushing me over the edge... I can't stop crying
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Pardon the bitter tone of the next paragraphs. I had not realized how much all of this still haunts me. And I am a successful adult in today's world . . . but obviously, being successful does not put all these ghosts to rest.
**********************************************
My mother married my biological father in the late 60's - because that's what you did when you oopsied and got preggo. He was a 'Nam vet - and she decided that there were too many problems with his ability or lack thereof in coping with the trauma.
She divorced him before I was a year old, and married the man that adopted me. They had two more children. When I was 10, they divorced. For whatever reason, I lived with him and they lived with her. When I was in my mid-20's, I told them both EMPHATICALLY to NEVER put me in the middle of their pathetic battles over "child support, who done what to the other, who was worst" BS again.
My mother re-married when I was 11. To a man entering his seventh marriage. She married an alcoholic, abusive nightmare of a man that hurt all of us in every way imaginable. I thank God that I was only available for his abuse 8 weeks out of the year. Four f***ing years ago, he was trying to get at my mother again.
She embarked on her 4th marriage when I was 14. A decent, down-to-earth, hard-working man. Also divorced with two children. The mixing of the family was just something - and with the youngest two, probably what tore them apart. They divorced when I was 23. I also told both of them to NEVER put me in the middle - they only tried once. He and I exchange Christmas and birthday greetings. Otherwise, he is no longer a part of my life. A loss for me and my son.
My biological father never remarried. I met him when I was 10. He was like a fairy tale in so many ways. He was honest. He whole-heartedly supported me and who I was - and loved his grandson with such intensity. He died five years ago. Another loss for my son and me.
My adoptive father remarried when I was 15. My step-mother inherited an angsty teen (me) when she was not more than 12 years my senior and had never been a mom before. We communicate. Civilly. Quarterly. Mostly for holidays.
My adoptive father was married and divorced prior to my mother. A child was also involved in this scenario. I met him when he stayed with us for a visit when I was a little girl.
Lest you think my mother was rotten, please note that she was subjected to a nasty divorce between her parents. (Among other traumas, such as child sexual abuse, and a critically ill, therefore absent for quite some time mother.) Her mother still holds very angry feelings.
My biological father's parents were divorced when he was a young lad. Granny later remarried when her boys were teens.
My adoptive father comes from a "stable LDS family" - but he and at least one sib have both experienced divorce.
Welcome to the world of no-fault divorce.
Yeah - so great for the kids, no?
the American Family - it knows no bounds.
/bitterness
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Shan, You're putting the blame in the wrong place. You're blaming no fault divorce for your Mom being a big screw-up. The problem was with your Mom and her bad choices, not with no-fault divorce.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
I don't think the blame goes on Shan's mom for the multiple divorces of the men she married, or for her parents' divorce.
I think that Shan's point, and Shan let me know if I'm missing the mark, is that there are just so freaking many divorces that the ease of divorce *must be* one of the causes of divorce.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Wow! In 7 minutes, you carefully read the post, think about your response, and then with great thoughtfulness, add your .02.
Pretty impressive, MrSquicky.
I'm also quite fascinated by how you labeled my mom as a screw-up, completely ignoring the other 50% of the equation.
You might note that I went to considerable trouble to show how multi-generational divorce has been, on all sides of the "family tree."
And yes, I am entitled to my opinion based on the life I have experienced. Whether you agree or not. And my opinion is that due to lack of boundaries, American families are scattered, leaderless, divided . . . oh! where have I heard that before? (Just a little tension breaker - sorry)
Oddly enough, ALL my siblings (half and step - all successful adults, too) still hold a great deal of hurt from their parents' divorces - and with the exception of the third husband of my mother, uniformly agree that mostly selfishness and a lack of willingness to work at the marriage ("it was just too much trouble") were the deciding factors in the divorces. And that the damage to the children was unfair, uncalled for, and that they will not ever do the same to their children.
So hey - maybe out of the ashes, the phoenix will arise . . .
EDITED TO ADD: Yes! That's it, LadyDove. And thank you for saying it in a so much more hearable manner than I did.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think making divorce harder and forcing people to stay together is the answer though. The negativity in a bad marriage will find a way to manifest itself, and I have to believe that will negatively impact on a child in that family.
You can't always know when you get married that a relationship will or won't work out. Getting married just for the sake of a child works sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't. Forcing something that is never going to work doesn't help the child at all, in fact I think it would present an unhealthy view of marriage to a kid.
What do you want a child to grow up with, the belief that divorce is okay, or the belief that it's best to stay in a bad marriage? I think the latter is more unhealthy than the former.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
::takes heart from Olivette's post::
mimsie, I think that each trauma is alotted only so many tears. Silly as this sounds, make sure to rehydrate yourself. ::pours mimsie some hot apple cider::
Shan, You have not continued the pattern. You are thinking about your son first and foremost. Good job, mom.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Saying that one person did something wrong in no way ignores that other people may have also done things wrong in that situation. Were your mother a mature person who acted responsibily in her relationships, the ability to get no-fault divorces wouldn't have affected her relationships. Conversely, even if she were unable to get an easy divorce, her poor relationship choices would have very likely had some pretty bad effects on you. You'd get to be in the middle of the fighting all the time.
I didn't say it was your mother's fault that she was a screw-up. I don't see how saying "But her parents divorced too." makes her mistakes any less mistakes.
---
It's selfishness and immaturity that are our problems. With them, having easy divorce isn't a problem because it's rarely used. Without them, making it really hard for people to leave marriages just means we're going to have a lot of messed up marriages, just like we did in the non-idealized history when divorce was much more difficult.
---
edit: As an aside, is taking 7 minutes for something like that really so uncommon? I was hardly racing through there. I read it and the posts that preceded it that I hadn't read before and posted a response. I don't see how that should take much more than 7 minutes.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*joins mimsie for a good cry*
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
LadyDove,
quote:I don't think the blame goes on Shan's mom for the multiple divorces of the men she married, or for her parents' divorce.
I don't see how it can't. Who else's responsibility is it? It's exactly this idea that people not needing to be responsible that I'm saying is the biggest problem. At some point, you have to stop letting people act like children and expect them to act like adults.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
I don't think we're communicating well. Shan's mom is only responsible for divorcing the men she divorced. She's not responsible for her X's previous divorces, nor is she responsible for the divorce of her own parents.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
MrSquicky - I just want you to note the following, please:
Out of all her husbands, all but one of them had also been married and divorced AT LEAST ONCE prior to marrying her. I could go deeper, and tell you how many times each of their former spouses had also been married and divorced. In sharing my personal example, I am trying to illustrate how the no-fault divorce has branches and roots far beyond the nuclear family.
Regardless - I do not think my mother was a "screw-up" for making mistakes. She was a human being - just like my biological father, my adoptive father, my two step-fathers, my step-mother . . . do you get the point? All human beings make mistakes - and regardless of their mistakes, name-calling is not helpful.
I entirely agree that selfishness and immaturity are the problem. But, saying that "easy divorce" doesn't add to the selfishness and immaturity is like not acknowledging that children are ultimately happier and healthier (and better behaved) when they have secure boundaries -
And is that not what a marriage should be? A place of safety within clearly defined boundaries for a couple and their children?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote: I entirely agree that selfishness and immaturity are the problem. But, saying that "easy divorce" doesn't add to the selfishness and immaturity is like not acknowledging that children are ultimately happier and healthier (and better behaved) when they have secure boundaries -
That is exactly what I was going to point out. Kids learn to share and to not be selfish because they aren't *allowed* to behave selfishly without reproach. Adults should be held to the same standards.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
See but you are both sayign that easy divorce makes it so that children don't have secure boundaries, which isn't true. As I said, having easy divorce with responsible, mature people isn't a problem and having no easy divorce with irresponsible, immature people is still a big problem. Children don't have secure boundaires when they come home to their parents constantly fighting. There is a lot more to having a good environment for children than simply "both parents are there". You can have these things with easy divorce, but they are very difficult to have where there isn't responsibility and maturity.
Shan's mom is a human being. She's also a human being who failed, repeatedly, at one of the most serious and important areas of adult life. She behaved irresponsibly and immaturely.
---
Adults shouldn't be held to the same standards as children. They should be held to higher ones. Adults have so much more freedom and their decisions are generally longer lasting and more serious than those of children. As such, they need to develop (wait for it) responsibility and maturity. It doesn't work to constantly be looking over their shoulders to make sure they don't screw up. Focusing on the breakup of the marriage misses out on the fact that the important parts are the entry into the marriage and the time within the marriage. Prevent the ending without fixing these two vastly more important parts and you've got a really bad marriage and a terribly insecure place for the children. But hey, at least they didn't get a divorce.
edit: Also, how is excusing Shan's mom from her culpability in her divorces not allowing her to act irresponsibly without reproach?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
quote:It doesn't work to constantly be looking over their shoulders to make sure they don't screw up. Focusing on the breakup of the marriage misses out on the fact that the important parts are the entry into the marriage and the time within the marriage. Prevent the ending without fixing these two vastly more important parts and you've got a really bad marriage and a terribly insecure place for the children. But hey, at least they didn't get a divorce.
Certainly, I don't disagree that the first step to making divorce undesirable is to choose the right mate. In fact, I agree with most of what you said about making adults take responsibility. Where we disagree is on the "how".
How do you propose we, as a society, convince adults to be responsible and less selfish?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
For one thing, by not saying "The problems with marriage are caused by some external force." and by saying that you can't say that people screwed up when they get divorced.
Our culture pushes irresponsibility and immaturity pretty strongly. It'll take a large change in our culture mores and mytholgies before marriage actually gets better. That's not going to happen if we keep blaming our problems on external factors.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:edit: Also, how is excusing Shan's mom from her culpability in her divorces not allowing her to act irresponsibly without reproach?
I wasn't excusing Shan's mom from *her* divorces. Of course, she is partially culpable in her own divorces. I was excusing her from being at fault in her parents' and in her X's previous and subsequent divorces. If she wasn't a party in the marriage, how could she be at fault?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
quote:That's not going to happen if we keep blaming our problems on external factors.
External to what?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
No - I wasn't saying that "easy divorce" makes it so that children don't have secure boundaries.
I was comparing the importance of boundaries for children's health, happiness, and good behavior to the importance of boundaries for adults in order to experience the same. In the adults' case, society erects the boundaries (expectations), whereas in the child's case, the parent does.
Okay - one more try, Squick - Lay off my mother. You're being insulting. She's a human being who tried her best. No - the results were not all I could have hoped for, nor were they what she wanted, either.
My biological father failed because he preferred to spend his paycheck on things other than supporting his wife and child. This is her fault?
My adoptive father failed because he attempted to use all the children, especially me, as pawns in his attempts to control my mother. This is her fault?
My first step-father is CLEARLY not to blame for his alcoholism (he was "in recovery" when they married) and his brutality? Silly me - that's her fault, and all of us kids, too, right?
My second step-father of course did nothing wrong when he grew tired of the quarreling over the two youngest children, and sought the company of another woman. That would be her fault, too, I suppose.
I know! Let's lay the blame on the doorstep of Waly Disney for all those silly cartoons that taught girls to be passive pieces in the game called love and marriage . . . yeah, that's what we should do.
MrSquicky - my mom doesn't have a problem with me sharing my perspective on how the choices all my parents made affected me or my siblings.
However, I have a problem with your continuing to emphasize her part in it, without acknowledging all the other associated parts.
And I have a real problem with the lack of respect.
I still agree 100% with you on the issues of selfishness and immaturity.
But I think that if the expectation were for adults - who (AS YOU SAID) should be held to higher standards than children - were for "working together to solve their problems", that this provides a far better model for children than the solution of "it's too hard, I give up, I'm getting out."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I honestly don't understand how the point about other people's marriages are relevant to Shan's mom. I don't get why people are mentioning them at the same time while talking about how easy divorces are the problem.
I'm not blaming Shan's mom for other people's divorces. I'm blaming them. But, again, it's not the fault of easy divorce, but rather of their own immaturity and irresponsibility.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
Shan mentioned 16 divorces in her post. The point was that it is way too easy to get out of the contract of marriage if one person can be immediately touched by that many divorces.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Let me try again - it's relevant in that "divorce" does not just affect one family, one person, one generation.
I am trying - very unsuccessfully, too - my apologies - to show how multigenerational divorce is . . . how far-reaching the effects are . . .
Both my grandmothers (now in their 80's) were divorced. They and their spouses re-married. All their children experienced at least one divorce. And all of their children - it just keeps spreading out and branching out.
Then again - maybe this is one of the strongest arguments ever for a variety of marriage contracts - different time periods, different purposes, different expectations -
I don't know . . .
I'm going to head off to slumberland, now, so good night all.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Okay - one more try, Squick - Lay off my mother. You're being insulting. She's a human being who tried her best. No - the results were not all I could have hoped for, nor were they what she wanted, either.
No she didn't try her best. She made mnay serious mistakes. She could have done much better. She could have tried much harder.
quote:My biological father failed because he preferred to spend his paycheck on things other than supporting his wife and child. This is her fault?
No, but it's her fault that she married someone like this.
quote:My adoptive father failed because he attempted to use all the children, especially me, as pawns in his attempts to control my mother. This is her fault?
She married someone who would abuse her children and you think that she tried the best she could? She was at fault for marrying this guy and for allowing him to abuse her children.
quote:My first step-father is CLEARLY not to blame for his alcoholism (he was "in recovery" when they married) and his brutality? Silly me - that's her fault, and all of us kids, too, right?
Again, no one forced her to marry him. That was her own bad decision. And so on.
quote:However, I have a problem with your continuing to emphasize her part in it, without acknowledging all the other associated parts.
And I have a real problem with the lack of respect.
I'm not emphasizing her part. Nor am am ignoring everything else. I saying that she should have acted responsibly, which she did not. REsponsiblity isn't a zero-sum game.
I work with kids in the Scouts. I try to teach them about responsibility, as the Scouts is one of the few organizations left that, despite its many flaws, tries to teach boys to be men. One of the lessons I try to hammer home is that, when something goes wrong, your job right then is not to blame others for it, but to do what you can to fix it. That's what it means to be responsible, what it means to be an adult.
An adult takes responsiblity for the things that they do and the things that they could have done. An individual's reponsibility is not affected by what other people do, except as it affects the possibilities of what he could do.
Regardless of the many other immature and irresponsible people in this story, your mom ultimately bears full responsiblity for her actions and decisions, just as they bear full responsibility for theirs. She didn't live up to this responsibility and you are continuing with this by excusing her by putting the blame on external factors. That's not something I let the 12 year old kids I volunteer with do.
quote:But I think that if the expectation were for adults - who (AS YOU SAID) should be held to higher standards than children - were for "working together to solve their problems", that this provides a far better model for children than the solution of "it's too hard, I give up, I'm getting out."
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. For responsible adults, it doesn't matter that this option is there. It doesn't make them do anything. It's not the option, but the choice that is the problem and you don't fix the choice by taking away the option. That choice, the "end the marriage" choice is still going to get made. It'll just travel down other channels. To fix marriage, we need to work on fixing the choice.
That is not done, is in fact hindered by putting the blame on external things.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
quote:It's not the option, but the choice that is the problem and you don't fix the choice by taking away the option.
I disagree. Consequences will always be weighed in when intelligent people make a choice.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
(((Shan))) thanks for the hydration tip LadyDove... want some gatorade Shan?
We just went through and split up the photos. UGH.
I hate this.
Maybe it is my fault... It never occured to me that he was using his father as a role model and relationship counselor... the guy who's been divorced 3 times himself. I mean... it should have occured to me, but it didn't.
Where would he have gotten the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff from this guy.
My son finally cried for the first time tonight since we told him. He "only wants to stay in this apartment with the family still united."
All he wants for Christmas is for me to be happy again.
I hate this.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Damn it - I was going to bed. *sigh*
quote: She didn't live up to this responsibility and you are continuing with this by excusing her by putting the blame on external factors.
Squick - NOWHERE did I ever say she wasn't responsible. Nor did I say she was. Nor did I point fingers at anyone in the whole sorry mess.
YOU started pointing fingers, assigning guilt, and laying blame.
I merely demanded that you do so equally.
And when you continued in the same vein, I offered additional corroborating evidence that there are indeed two sides (and oh, so many more) to the story.
And - just so you can rest easy - I'd be the adult child in the whole fam-damily that bears the black sheep label for continuing to insist in open that what occurred in our lives was wrong.
I concur with LadyDove - Intelligent people weigh their options when making their choices.
If I park here without paying the meter and get caught, it'll cost $12.00. But if park there and get caught, it'll cost $30.00. So on and so forth . . . choice does not exist in a vacuum.
Edit to add: (((mimsies)))
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Our marriage counselor introduced me to Attachment Theory This is sort of tangential, but it helped me alot in figuring out why I had made many of the choices I made. I also expect it to help me to avoid the same patterns in the future.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Squicks, Shan, I think you both agree that:
1. "Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game."
2. Shan's mother is responsible for the decisions she made in her relationships.
3. Other people in her mother's life also share responsibility in what happened in those relationships.
I don't think Shan is saying that #3 lessens her mother's responsibility in any way. Perhaps Squicks got that impression because of this comment by Shan:
quote:Welcome to the world of no-fault divorce
I can see how Squicks might have reasonably interpreted that comment a shorthand way of saying "no-fault divorce caused all the problems!" But as Shan has clarified her stance on this matter, we can see that you both agree there is plenty of responsibility to go around.
However, was it necessary to use this kind of language about someone's parent?
quote:You're blaming no fault divorce for your Mom being a big screw-up.
I know you didn't intend to be mean-spirited, Squicks. Based on what I've read in this thread and in the date rape threads, I know you feel very strongly about personal responsibility, and therefore, you do get very offended when you sense people trying to pass the blame to others.
But that is a pretty harsh thing to say about anyone's parent.
Of course, striking the right tone is always a challenge in this type of thread, which is both a public policy debate AND a place where people share very painful and personal memories. I know I've always had a tough time expressing myself in these type of discussions without unintentionally offending people.
quote:The problem was with your Mom and her bad choices, not with no-fault divorce.
As with any complex social problem, there are always multiple factors that we can consider. Just because we are considering the additional factors doesn't necessarily mean we are absolving the actors of their responsibility.
Take gun control for example: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Very true.
If little Johnny stole his father's gun and accidentally killed his sister, then Johnny and his parents are both at fault.
However, do we ignore the fact that loose gun control laws made the firearm available in the first place? Surely, even without a gun, Johnny's disobedient nature and his parent's irresponsible parenting would have manifested itself in some other type of problem. But the gun just made the problem that much worse.
quote:Were your mother a mature person who acted responsibily in her relationships, the ability to get no-fault divorces wouldn't have affected her relationships. Conversely, even if she were unable to get an easy divorce, her poor relationship choices would have very likely had some pretty bad effects on you. You'd get to be in the middle of the fighting all the time.
What about borderline cases? If someone is on the fence about leaving her spouse, would the availability of no-fault divorces sway them one way or the other?
I'll give you an example. My parents have been married for almost forty years. During the first twenty years of their marriage they lived in an Asian country where divorce was socially unacceptable. In the last twenty years they've moved to the United States, where divorce was fairly commonplace.
For as long as I could remember, my parents never got along. Even as a child I could tell that my parents were not meant to be together. However, they never talked about getting a divorce until they moved to the United States and saw that many of their asian friends were divorced, and that it was basically an act with little social stigma attached to it.
Eventually they decided not to get a divorce. But they were tempted, and they were definitely influenced by the social norms of the communities they lived in.
Btw, I also want to commend LadyDove for the way she is shepherding this emotional and personal topic. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I am sorry for all the grief and suffering your mother went through, Shan. I can well understand fierce devotion to and protectiveness of one's mother. I largely agree with Mr. Squicky on this subject, although I would've phrased things differently.
I'll agree that it's possible for a person to be snookered by another person in a marriage, totally without the victim's knowledge. It's even possible in cases when the victim goes out of his way to learn all he can about his future partner-listening and watching carefully all that the future spouse says or does, listening to what friends have to say, and just hearing what enemies have to say, knowing them for a good long time before getting married...
But as it happens repeatedly, as one person serially dates and marries scumbags and jerks...well, yes, those people are still scumbags and jerks, of course. But the question of, "Why do you keep marrying these assholes?" has to come up at some time or another.
I think the answer is that the person made a series of very bad choices, very serious mistakes. People do that sometimes, and although it may be hurtful to say it, and saying so is disrespectful...well, the question occurs.
That's all. People screw up. Sometimes little, sometimes big.
Also kudos to Ladydove, and my apologies to anyone who is upset by this topic-I realize it's deeply personal and painful.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I'm so sorry, Mimsies. I remember the picture seperation. In the end, I just gave them all to her (after scanning a few of them). I didn't know what to do with them.
She was selfish. And she's paying the price, because that's not the person she wanted to be or the thing she wanted to do to our son, or to me, for that matter. I honestly don't take any delight in the guilt she feels, or in the fact that her husband is a recovering alcoholic and so is emotionally immature, or that she has to deal with his ex-wife (2 marriages were destroyed over this), who's understandably still very bitter. It doesn't make me feel any better. He's good to my son and to her (though I do make sure to keep an eye on things). As others have experienced, it could have been much worse. We share custody and work hard at reassuring our son and loving him and spending time with him. We have even taken him to a therapist together to get some insight. She tries to be a good mother. She made a huge mistake and will now spend the rest of her life paying for it (and knowing that Connor will be paying for it, though we can minimize the pain as much as can be done). In the end, that's all that matters- his welfare.
The pain and hurt and anger can pass, as cliche as that sounds. Don't waste your time or yourself hating and hurting. It won't do anything to him and it will only poison you. As someone said, just rely on your friends, be as involved in your child's life as you possibly can so as to avoid the loneliness. And when it does, know that you'll get through it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Where would he have gotten the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff from this guy.
If it's any consolation, I got the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff by looking at my two parents' six marriages and thinking, "Gee, you two are losers."
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I'm also very glad that my mother wasn't forced to list all the bad things my father did just to get away from him. She did her best to keep it amicable, and not to dis him to us (though she never pretended he was ideal, I don't think she demonized him, either).
Don't blame the laws, blame individual's attitudes toward marriage. I knew my mother took marriage very seriously -- if she hadn't, we'd have been out of my father's control much, much sooner. She waited until their counsellors agreed divorce was her only remaining option, that he was dangerous. She got us out before before he ever hit any of us, though it was obvious his rages were headed that way.
In any case, I'm glad she didn't have to demonize him in court. I think it helped me have a cordial relationship with him later.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
LadyDove, that link looks great. I'll read through it more closely after work. And I'll second Beren's commendation for the way you have been shepherdessing this topic. He's right - it's painful and emotional. And you have done a wonderful job -
Beren, you are the voice of sweet reason. Thank you for drawing the two approaches together.
Rakeesh - of course the question gets raised. I have no problem with the question. I do like it to be equally applied. Just my peccadillo.
IanO - thank you for working so hard on helping your son through this time. And you're right - in the end, it's the welfare of the children that matter.
TomD - I laugh; and I mourn. All at once.
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
quote:Originally posted by mimsies: Geez, I don't know if this thread is therapeutic or if it is pushing me over the edge... I can't stop crying
Yeah, me too, but this thread has truly been helpful to me, thanks to all the thoughtful posters. My 14 year-old son has been reading it too, I think it's helped him.
Mimsies, I've been thinking about you ever since you first posted about your seperation. Things do get easier in time, but it is so hard to see our children suffer.
LadyDove, you are awesome. dawnmaria, you give me hope. Shan, your honesty is so admirable. Stay strong. IanO, your son is so lucky to have you!
TomDavidson, thanks for lightening th emood with some humour! you give me hope, too, that some day my kids will be able to laugh about this...
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
quote:Originally posted by ctm: dawnmaria, you give me hope.
I don't know about all that now. I still have my bitter moments. Like yesterday when I got the Christmas card from my Dad that couldn't have been more generic. NO salutation, NO Love, just his first name , my step mother's and "the girls". It could have been to a business associate it was so generic. It didn't bother my little sister. She says he's busy. I might be too busy to send the pics of his grandbaby in his card! But then I'd feel like a sh*t. The only thing I don't think I've ever been able to put behind me is I still have an innate need for this man's approval and it pisses me off that I feel I need it. I too would like to thank you Ladydove. This thread has given me a lot to think about and I feel I am not alone in my feelings. Sometimes I wonder is it "just me" that feels these things and now I know I am not alone.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:No she didn't try her best.
This irritates me. How can you know that? You weren't there. You weren't her. How can you know what she tried or what she didn't or what she was capable of? If one party tries her hardest and the other party doesn't care, I'm sorry, but she can't carry the whole relationship forever. At that point, it's not a relationship! And it's not fair to expect that.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Beren One Hand-
Rakeesh,
quote: But the question of, "Why do you keep marrying these assholes?" has to come up at some time or another.
I think this type of question is at the core of most of our relationship issues and illustrates Shan’s point about divorce being an “inherited” trait. Btw, I’ve really enjoyed your thoughts in this thread.
Tom,
quote:I got the idea that marriage vows are serious stuff by looking at my two parents' six marriages and thinking, "Gee, you two are losers."
My parents didn’t divorce, but I had this same reaction to their parenting “skills”. At the age of 8, I started reading child psychology books and keeping a diary of how *not* to be a parent. I wonder what makes some people emulate what they hate and others use that same hate as a kickboard to become the person they want to be?
Olivet,
quote:Don't blame the laws, blame individual's attitudes toward marriage.
I’m not looking to make the laws any tougher. For instance, the law requires that abuse be chronic before it will prevent or limit a child’s exposure to an abusive parent. If I had had to wait until I could prove a chronic pattern before the legal separation, it may have been too late.
What I’m looking for are social consequences and frowning on elective divorces. I’d like to see divorce portrayed as a way of surviving rather than an avaenue to thriving.
Shan, That sight is not as directed and easy to read as I’d like. The worksheets I learned from are in PDF format and, if you’re interested, I can give you directions on how to get to the link.
ctm, It’s so hard to know how much to share with the kids and at what age. In my case, I’m trying to give my boys the tools to cope with the situation without dumping any of my baggage on them. I’ve found that one of the things that helps them most is talking about other families going through the same problems. It’s a way to address the issues without it becoming too personal.BTW, I think it's important to let the kids broach the topics since mine are so young.
dawnmaria,
quote: I feel I am not alone in my feelings.
Having never had sisters, I was always at a loss for what the whole “sisterhood” thing was about. Since the separation, I’ve shared my story and listened to so many stories that are *just* like mine. I can meet a long known acquaintance, begin to share what’s going on in my life, and by the end the talk we are friends. We are sisters. We have suffered through and survived. We are not alone. You are not alone.
[ December 06, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
KQ, She married an abusive drunk who she then allowed to abuse her children. I get that it's not nice to say bad things about people (or at least ones that our posters arren't bashing behind their backs) but that doesn't mean that this isn't right or useful. At some point you have to actually say that people did something wrong, even if it hurts someone's feelings. That's part of being an adult too.
---
I feel I should emphasize that I am not calling Shan mother a bad or evil person. Responsbility and maturity are not matters of good or evil (or intelligence for that matter).
It's easy for me to be responsible. I was gifted (through no merit of my own) with a very warm, loving, and stable upbringing upbring by two wondeful parents as well as a very supportive extended family. I didn't have any of the burdens and disadvantages that Shan's mom had. I strongly believe that a person's moral nature can only be understand by taking where they started into account. It's entirely possible, on an absolute scale, that Shan's mom is a better person than I am.
Maturity and responsibility, however, don't exist on this sliding scale. There is no weighting based on where you start. There's an objective standard and Shan mom failied this standard. She did not behave maturely or responsibily and no amount of being offended that someone would say this is going to change that.
She would not have behaved maturely if she were unable to get divorced. She (and her husband) still would have failed in living up to the responsibilities that go along with being married and having kids. However, they would have been stuck in a very bad marriage, which would still have left a great many emotional scars on Shan and her siblings.
This was not one of the potential "borderline cases" where possibly the inability to get an easy divorce would have led to growth in the relationship.
Legal adulthood provides people with many, many freedoms, which many use irresponsibly and really screw themselves and others up with. Denying people these freedoms and treating them as much as possible as if they are children isn't a good long term solution (although in come cases - gun control, for example - you can make the case that it's a necessary one).
In an ideal world, the freedom one has would be tied accurately to their level of maturity and responsibility. That's neither possible nor anything but a really scary idea in this imperfect world of ours, but I don't think should stop us from expecting people to use their freedoms responsibly and to accept responsibilty when they messed up, instead of blaming it on other things or people.
I don't like divorce. I'm not advocating that easy divorce is a good idea. What I'm saying is that blaming "We allow easy divorce." for the problems with marriages not only ignores that actual rampant immaturity and irresponsibility that is the real root cause, but also fosters the "blame external factors" attitude that is part and parcel with these things.
Rather than making it hard to break up a marriage, why aren't people suggesting we make it hard for peopel to get into one? Or perhaps tie how hard it is to your divorced status. Something like the first one is easy but it gest progressively more difficult to get married as you get divorced and try to remarry? At what point should we step in and expect people to prove their maturity and commitment before they get married and why isn't this a more natural idea to combat these problems that "Don't let people get divorced."?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love everything you just said, Squicky.
*looks out the window to check for pigs*
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Squicky,
quote:Rather than making it hard to break up a marriage, why aren't people suggesting we make it hard for peopel to get into one? Or perhaps tie how hard it is to your divorced status. Something like the first one is easy but it gest progressively more difficult to get married as you get divorced and try to remarry? At what point should we step in and expect people to prove their maturity and commitment before they get married and why isn't this a more natural idea to combat these problems that "Don't let people get divorced."?
I would buy into anyone of the above ideas. They all make it socially less attractive to divorce. Maybe the problem is semantics. I say, "Make it less attractive to divorce." You say, "Make it more attractive for people to stay together." In either case, marriage is taken more seriously.
Though I like your emphasis on the willing commitment, I think that the "willing" part needs a nudge with how far the pendulum has swung toward divorce being a viable option to responsibility. I think that a carrot and stick approach is often very effective.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:*looks out the window to check for pigs*
::Gets out really big umbrella.::
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Mr. Card's column really struck home with me. My parents divorced in 1979 when I was 10 and my sister was eight. There was no infidelity between my parents, no physical abuse, just a long-standing series of disagreements and fights that I've spent decades listening to them still hash out.
I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have been had they stayed married, who I would be. When my folks divorced, my Dad was a successful real estate broker, my Mom was a stay at home mom. I rode to school in a brand new jaguar, we had a nice four bedroom home in a nice neighborhood and all the trappings of a classic American family. Except my parents slept in different rooms, didn't take meals together and fought about anything that came up.
And one day, my sister and I got off the bus and couldn't get in the front door of the house. Both of our parents cars were home and all the doors were locked. We could hear them arguing and no one would come to the door no matter how many times we rang the bell. We sat on the front porch and waited. Then one of the garage doors opened and my Dad pulled the car out. He waved goodbye to us and left. A few minutes later my Mom unlocked the doors and let us in. They had decided to divorce then; they were 33 and 29, married for 10 years.
Within a year, my father had lost everything and had to move back home with his parents. My Mom had to take a minimum wage job. All the money was gone, eaten up by attorney's fees.
The divorce was nasty, the child custody battle was worse, with the attorneys and judges pulling us children in to the proceedings over the voiced protests of my parents. Cousins and distant relatives waited outside the courtroom to cuss and scream at the parent on the opposite side of the fight as they came out.
It was pure hell. We had just moved to a new town the year before the divorce and I had just started going to a second school since I arrived, one across town from my home. My grades went into the toilet and I started becoming a problem student and, it pains me so much to admit it now, a bully. Or at least it's the reputation I got. No one seemed to realize I spent a lot of time pounding on the kids who had been pounding on the class victims before. Whatever.
Man, it flat out messed me up and did a fair number on my sister, too. She stayed out of trouble, however. Two years after the divorce, they demoted me out of the gifted and talented program and pretty much labeled me as that day's equivalent of an "at-risk" kid. That pretty much stuck with me through high school where I was lumped as the underachiever C student who the guidance counselors couldn't waste their time on to talk about colleges.
Blah, blah, blah, cry me a river. That's the kind of crap I carried on my shoulders until I was about 23 or so. Then I realized something very, very important. My parents had been young, stupid and lived in a time when divorce was the popular answer instead of working things out. They did what they had to do and I got slammed, not by them, but by the process.
I realized that, crap, was I going to carry this dreg around with me for the rest of my life, always dragging it out as an excuse for why I wasn't happy or wasn't accomplishing anything? Was I basically going to go back to that front porch when I was 10 years old and couldn't get into the house that was locked by my parents' divorce?
I think when I put that baggage down and realized that I would work hard to make sure my children never had to carry it either (and we can hand our baggage right directly to them if we aren't careful), that I became an adult and began to move in my life.
Yeah, divorce sucks, it's selfish, it hurts innocent children. Wish I had better advice for those going through it, but I do know it takes two for a marriage but only one for a divorce. Sometimes it's just a sorry old world. But try to be kind to the kids and never let the divorce be bigger than they are.
/rant off
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I seem to be butting into a lot of conversations with my 2 cents late in the game, lately. Sorry about that.
I'm the child of two second marriages: My mother's first marriage was annulled, my father's first wife died of cancer.
While I think there's some merit in what Card has to say, I think (perhaps in part because his response is based to studies, which tend to be hypothesis-positive or hypothesis-negative) that in one respect his response is rather too black-and-white, and in another, while his intentions are good, I think his attention could be better directed.
The black-and-white: While I certainly agree that physical or sexual abuse is cause for divorce and getting the children away from the abusive partner as quickly as possible, I think there are divorces that don't fall under those lines that still aren't as simple as one or both people deciding to call it quits to pursue happiness elsewhere. I think there are marriages that grow cold, distant, and hostile without anyone ever laying a finger on anyone else, and one has to consider that there's a very real possibility that divorce is preferable to living in a home that's already like a war zone. Which is not to say that people of good conscience shouldn't seek help and counseling and every reasonable step to save a marriage, especially if there are children to consider. But I don't think every marriage under stress is salvagable, even if both members might try. And I think in as much as the recently divorced are more in need of the support of their communities than before, to shun them while third parties try to parcel out blame will probably do more harm than good.
As to the attention of the piece: I can't help but wonder if maybe the relative ease of marriage isn't at least as much of a problem as the ease of divorce. So many people enter marriage without the most basic skills of conflict management and negotiation, coming in on the "hormonal rush" that Card mentions. A lifelong commitment is a hard thing to understand, even without the glorified versions we see in fiction. We encourage people to get married, we often pressure people if they haven't married by a certain age. Perhaps we'd do a greater service if we counselled people to wait and watch and learn. We deal in lacy photo albums and images of old people watching sunsets from porch swings, and don't dwell on the sick one AM feeling that you didn't really say what you wanted to say as well as you could have, that you didn't really make yourself understood.
Part of our current situation with divorce, I think, is a culture that comprehends divorce and the temporary better than marriage and the enduring.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
My parents divorced around when I was 14 (my brother was 12). My dad was hit with my mom's infidelity (he is now my step-dad) and his mother dying in the same few months, and he had a nervous breakdown. Not good times; it took several years for my dad to get back to somewhat normal (including finding the right meds).
That said, the first thing that came out of their mouths was that it wasn't our (me and my brother's fault). The divorce took some time, in part because my dad was mentally ill, and it wasn't always pretty, but they both made sure we always knew they loved us, and that we were not the divisive issue. It was about as amicable as could be hoped.
I think we turned out well. My dad even goes to Thanksgiving dinner at my mom's sometimes. They are friendly, even if it is a bit weird (especially for my dad). I have decent relationships with all 3 parents.
I'm married now, and I'm going to do my best by her and me. It's funny though, the implicit stigma on divorced kids. My wife (then-girlfriend) went on a 12 hour car ride to Indiana with her parents to go visit her sister in college. We'd been dating not quite 2 years, but had been living together for 8 months or so. Her mom kept saying that she should be prepared that I, being a child of divorce, could have commitment issues. This was difficult for my wife, because at the time I had already bought the ring (we shopped together), and I was waiting for a romantic time to make it official; (giving it to her right after purchase, with her completely aware, would have been anti-climactic, so I waited a couple months ).
-Bok
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Sopwith,
quote: Man, it flat out messed me up and did a fair number on my sister, too.
Sounds like the king of understatements.
What an awful time you had. That was almost 30 years ago and it still seems remarkably fresh in your memory. So much for time healing all wounds.
quote:I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have been had they stayed married, who I would be.
Did you come to any conclusions?
quote: I think when I put that baggage down and realized that I would work hard to make sure my children never had to carry it either (and we can hand our baggage right directly to them if we aren't careful), that I became an adult and began to move in my life.
You are strong to have come to this conclusion on your own.
Can you think of anything your parents could have done within the context of the divorce that would have made it easier for you and your sister? And please forgive or ignore this question if it seems inappropriate, but what was harder on you guys, the divorce or the drastic change in lifestyle?
Sterling,
quote: As to the attention of the piece: I can't help but wonder if maybe the relative ease of marriage isn't at least as much of a problem as the ease of divorce. So many people enter marriage without the most basic skills of conflict management and negotiation, coming in on the "hormonal rush" that Card mentions.
You and Squicky are on the same page.
I definitely didn’t enter marriage in a “hormonal rush”. I lived with my spouse for 8 years before getting married and it was another 3 years before we had our first child. It was at the point that our first child was born that things started going downhill. What we never did was learn conflict resolution. I just gave in or got quiet when we had an issue. For me, nothing was important enough to fight over until I was responsible for another human being. If I’d taken responsibility for sticking-up for myself early in the relationship, the relationship wouldn’t have born children. Bleh, hindsight is always 20/20.
In any case, I agree that the marriage counseling and conflict resolution education should go on before marriage.
Bokonon,
quote: It's funny though, the implicit stigma on divorced kids. My wife (then-girlfriend) went on a 12 hour car ride to Indiana with her parents to go visit her sister in college. We'd been dating not quite 2 years, but had been living together for 8 months or so. Her mom kept saying that she should be prepared that I, being a child of divorce, could have commitment issues.
You’ve hit on my only real problem with attaching socially negative aspects to divorce. I hate the idea of advocating something that will make the life of the child-survivor of a divorce more difficult. Of course, the idealized hope is that if divorce becomes less prevalant, there will be fewer children who may have to bear the stigma.
Mama Squirrel, I think I’ve told you this before, but knowing how well you turned out helped me through those first bad days after the split. I kept thinking, "I’ve got a chance that if I stay healthy and help my kids in every way I can, they can enter a loving and healthy relationship just like Mike and Connie." This thought and you and Pop reaching out to me and the boys made a big difference in July and August.
I still think about the conversation in my kitchen where Pop was talking about the relationship of God and the church being like the relationship between a husband and wife. It made me examine myself and my relationship and helped me make sure that I had done everything I could short of putting my boys and myself in danger. His words kept me there to the last day. Though I must admit, I look at you and Pop and marvel that married life can be that good.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
Thanks LadyDove. We think about you often. I am sorry we haven't been in contact lately.
I still remember something the counselor mentioned at one of our pre-marital counseling sessions. He mentioned how some people he counseled wanted to change the vows. Instead of "till death do us part" or "for as long as we both shall live," they wanted to say "until it can no longer be." It didn't sound to us like the type of thing you would say if you were going into marriage without having divorce as an option from the beginning.
This thread and breyerchic04's landmark brought some memories up. It was the question about her first memory. My first memory is at the court. My brother and I were taken into the judges chambers where he asked us who we wanted to live with. I was about 3 1/2. Not the best of first memories.
I do think that because of my parents' divorce that I am very aware that marriage takes work. It isn't easy. I know that with two kids (almost 3) that it gets harder to find spousal alone time. It is something we have been trying to work harder at lately.
Before dating Pop I actually went to pre-engagement counseling with another person. I ended up breaking up with him not long after we finished. Apparently (according to him), he and the pastor agreed that I had commitment issues. He was the one who wasn't even sure God wanted him to ever get married. There were many reasons, not one of which was commitment issues, why I broke up with him. I see it as an example of the stigma associated with children of divorce.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I wonder what someone could find out if they did a similar study in Ireland. Wasn't divorce illegal there until recently? I wonder how some of those families turned out with parents locked into marriage even if they wanted out.
Posted by Silkie (Member # 8853) on :
quote:Originally posted by human_2.0: I haven't had the time to read the whole thread and article, just snips. But I wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
My parents are seperated and didn't divorce. I'm still glad they aren't divorced. My mom has divorced parents and she has trama stories that I don't. I'm much more emotionally healthy than she is and even she admits that too.
I just don't think having fighting parents comes anywhere near the torture of being abandoned, and my parents sure knew how to fight.
Just my experience and 2 cents.
That is a sensible and in my mind a correct approach to living the life you have, and not wishing yourself sick over what might have been.
My parents were dysfunctional, and stayed together 'for the kids' ... to our detriment. When they finally seperated - I was 17 - it was a relief. For a long time I blamed my mother for everything wrong in life. After therapy and growth I began to understand that they simply were wrong for each other, and that both of them were so wrapped up in their own dramas that they actually didn't realize what they were doing to us. I have forgiven them, and worked on healing the child within me. I have a harmonious long distance relationship with both of them now, and my life is much better for that distance.
I married the wrong person. He drank, and gambled, and was abusive. I divorced him. My ex was bitter. He and his family did their best to withhold support from us, and were the source of frequent turmoil. I raised two children under difficult circumstances as a single parent. I made my mistakes, but I can say that my children are better off and more stable than I was at their ages. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it.
Sometimes you get all the good breaks: a stable family, economic stability, and parents who both express their love for you and put your welfare first. Sometimes you are dealt a more challenging hand in life. It is what you do with what you are dealt that is most important.
I became interested in genealogy a few years ago. In my research I found many of the same relationship patterns that my generation dealt with in my ancestors' relationships. The thread of instability traveled back MANY generations. These relationship patterns and instabilities had been passed on from generation to generation. I had read about this happening in textbooks, but witnessing it in my research was different. That was an important realization.
So, what do you do when you are given lemons? You make lemonade.
Becoming a responsible adult is a choice. In my early thirties I made a conscious choice to grow up, and accept responsibility for my life. I chose to forgive my past and move on with my life. I've done my best to pass those lessons I learned on to my children, hopefully to the betterment of their children. I think we may have broken the cycle, or at least we are well on our way to doing that.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
LadyDove, Honestly, I try not to carry my parents' divorce around on my sleeve, it's really just not worth it and it can be too easily used as a crutch or an excuse for one's own life. Of course, that column really brought it to the forefront, as do the holidays generally when my wife and I get pulled this way and that from my Dad to my Mom, or more specifically between my grandparents, who divorced back in 1989.
Do I have any conclusions of who I could have been or who I would have been? Heck, it's just nebulous ponderings isn't it? In truth, what I feel it did more than anything is put my development on hold until my parents could get back to being adults for a while. And really, that's a lot to ask of a 10-year old kid.
I guess what I'd have to say is that anyone who is looking at going through a divorce needs to look at how difficult the road ahead of them is going to be. And then they need to sit down with their spouse and ask this very, very important question: We can choose to walk down this road but do we want to MAKE our children walk down it? Your children have no say in whether it happens or not, they can't back out one day and say "Hey, I made a mistake and I want to have a family again."
Let's face it, both parents really need to think it through before going through it and decide what they want to put their kids through. Will the marriage be rougher on them than the divorce?
Heck, I can't answer that question for anyone, every divorce is different, right? Is it really different in the eyes of the kids, though?
Listen, I could try to polish it as much as possible but every divorce is going to hurt the child involved in ways that you can't imagine unless you've had it happen to you. All of a sudden, their parents aren't together anymore. All of a sudden they don't have a home anymore -- they've got Mom's house and Dad's house. All of a sudden the holidays are no longer about them anymore, but about who they are going to be with and on what day.
And all of a sudden, they have to deal, daily, with the very adult issues that Mommy and Daddy couldn't deal with together anymore.
Personally, I think if you're about to get divorced and abuse isn't an issue in the divorce, then both parents ought to read what I just wrote.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Nicely expressed, Sopwith.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
That was indeed very well-put, Sopwith.
Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sopwith: Listen, I could try to polish it as much as possible but every divorce is going to hurt the child involved in ways that you can't imagine unless you've had it happen to you. All of a sudden, their parents aren't together anymore. All of a sudden they don't have a home anymore -- they've got Mom's house and Dad's house. All of a sudden the holidays are no longer about them anymore, but about who they are going to be with and on what day.
And all of a sudden, they have to deal, daily, with the very adult issues that Mommy and Daddy couldn't deal with together anymore.
I read that part to my kids. My daughter (age 12) said, "That's perfect." My son (14) said "Sopwith is 100% right."
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I was staying with a twenty-something friend of mine when his parents announced they were getting a divorce. He was living and sustaining himself on his own, by then, but I still remember he came in looking a little like he'd just seen a traffic accident. He put on a tape of the Muppets and watched an entire show before he told my wife and I about the announcement.
He was an adult, and as he said "my parents have never exactly been a 'cute couple'", but it still clearly hurt.
On the other hand, he's said lately that his father has been much happier, much more open, and much more "of a person" since the divorce. And his mother is doing things she couldn't have easily done, within their marriage (she's a recent religious convert.)
It's definitely not an easy question. And I truly hope it's one I never have to face.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I read the article a few weeks ago. I plan to read the book, although I have already read other books by children of divorce.
Sopwith, your last post was excellent. The problem is that some people cannot accept (despite the extensive research) that THEIR divorce will actually harm their kids as much as people are telling them it will.
My ex still thinks the issues our son is having (and has been having off-and-on for years) are unrelated to the divorce and subsequent lack of consistent time spent with his father. (And mind, I think my ex is a good dad, and he spends quite a bit of time with the kids, probably 25-30% of their out-of-school time. But it's not the same as getting to see both parents every day, and it never will be.) My oldest is just now getting to "ok" or better most of the time (not all the time -- she IS a pre-teen after all ); and my youngest, who is too little to really remember a time when she didn't shuttle back-and-forth between parents, shows distinct effects as well.
I have three kids in therapy now. All because my ex was (and is) somehow convinced that divorce would not be as bad for them as I (or various other people, including both the therapists we saw during the year after he walked out) kept saying it would be.
(The problems with our marriage came from both of us. The choice to divorce instead of continuing to work on them was all his.)
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I've been suicidal for a long time, most people here know that. And I'm 17. I've grown up with my parents arguing. Mostly about religion. My mom flat out told me the arguments were my fault. She has been very nasty at times- she wont even TRY to stop smoking for the sake of her children, and doesn't really care that everything she believes my dad has "done" is a lie. Example: She believes that my dad had an affair with a woman in the church who lives in our town and had children(older than me, but I knew them) in the band with me. See, I KNOW this isn't true. The times she thought they were acting inappropraitely- I was THERE. NOTHING happened. But my mom won't believe anyone. My dad broke off his friendship with this woman five years ago, and hasn't seen her or spoken to her since. It was just a friendship. But my mom doesn't even want him near the church. Any church, pretty much. THere are a lot of other problems, too. But that's not the point.
The struggle I have is this. My parents saw lawyers about a month ago. I know they could work out their issues if my mother would just TRY- she knows what she needs to do to make this work, but she refuses to do it, not even for me and my sister. I'VE done more to save her amrriage than she has. But I've gotten so sick of her bashing my faith, tearing apart everything I do as "not good enough" (this includes straight A's and things like Honor Bands and first chair in the high school wind ensemble). My sister is going back to college next week, and she doesn't plan on coming home again. My sister and I are(or were) really close. SO I've lost that too.
I don't know whether I want my parents together. They fight when they're together, but I love them too much to see them apart. My mom doesn't really have any friends. SHe doesn't leave the house and she's always depressed. I know that if my parents divorced, this would only get worse. As it stands, I don't think my mom will live to see her grandchildren grow up. My sister is 20, but she doesn't plan on marrying until well after college. My dad, my sister, and I are really the only good influences my mom has. I don't want to see her life go down the drain because of something stupid like what church I go to.
Do I abandon my church and my friends there(and I mean, no more contact with any of them, period- that's what she's asking) and keep my parents together and happy, or do I chose the selfish route and watch my mother die?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Tinros, the choices your parents make are theirs, not yours. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR MARRIAGE. They are.
And whatever choice you make about your life is NOT what will save -- or not -- their marriage. Their choices (it sounds like it may be mostly your mother's but I don't really know) are.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
You see, rivka, it was MY choice that got my dad to start going back to church after 20 some years of abandoning God altogether. I'm the one that kept him there, that started the whole disagreement. It's my responses to my mother's questions about what I believe that are making or breaking her. How do I know I'm doing the right thing? Do I answer or stay silent? I don't know which would cause more harm.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You see, rivka, it was MY choice that got my dad to start going back to church after 20 some years of abandoning God altogether.
No. It was HIS choice that got him back to church. You just influenced that choice.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Agreed.
Tinros, it is really, really important that you talk about this with an adult you trust -- preferably a pastor or school counselor, or maybe a teacher you trust.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I have, rivka. They just told me to be the best daughter I can be. In other words, obedient, and keep my nose out of it. And you know, I'd really like my nose kept out of it. But my mom keeps bringing my nose back into it. Is there something attractive about my nose? Just kidding.
Tom, My dad started going to church because I needed a ride and he didn't have anything better to do. He asked me questions, I explained things to him, and he decided to become a Christian again. I f I hadn't started wanting to go to church, none of this would have happened.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I don't disagree with that advice, but it sounds like it was insufficient. Either go talk with them again, and ask for specific advice; or try talking with a different trusted adult.
Your interest was a trigger, perhaps. But your dad made his own choices -- 20 years ago, when he married your mom, and more recently. You are NOT responsible for his choices.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
But I AM responsible for my choices, and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad. If I set a good example, she'll think, hey, maybe it's not so bad. If I set a bad example, she'll think, what jerks, I want them to stay away from there. But it's REALLY hard to be kind and loving when I'm constantly being told I'm not good enough.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:But I AM responsible for my choices
Yes.
quote:and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad.
NO! She makes that choice, more influenced by his behavior than yours -- and in the end, it is HER choice.
Just as I cannot force you to choose to believe me (much as I wish I could ) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.
It bothered me enough when you were convinced your boyfriend's choices were your fault, but this is far worse. No one is responsible for your choices but you, neh? So why would you be responsible for anyone else's?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Because it's my mother and she told me it was my fault?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
@ your mom, then.
And at you for believing her! You are reaching adulthood, and part of that is learning to sort through the various things you are told by those around you, and deciding which ones to accept as true. You were strong enough to make the choice of religious beliefs that differ from hers -- you are strong enough to know that just because she says something is your fault doesn't make it so.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
And for the most part, I believe that. You see, she's still convinced that until I am a legal adult, she should choose what church I go to and what religion I practice. In other words, she could suddently force me to be Buddhist without my consent. Which I think is a load of crap, but there you have it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:But I AM responsible for my choices
Yes.
quote:and my choices determine my mom's reaction to my dad.
NO! She makes that choice, more influenced by his behavior than yours -- and in the end, it is HER choice.
Just as I cannot force you to choose to believe me (much as I wish I could ) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.
It bothered me enough when you were convinced your boyfriend's choices were your fault, but this is far worse. No one is responsible for your choices but you, neh? So why would you be responsible for anyone else's?
rivka is right about this. You are responsible for your choices only. Your mother reacts however she chooses to react. You are not responsible for her or her happiness.
Being a good child does not mean doing whatever your parents tell you to do. Not all parents know what is best for them or their children, and from what you're describing, your mother would seem to fall into that category.
Being a good human, however, does mean becoming responsible for your own life, your own happiness, your own decisions. You need to decide to be responsible for yourself and become the kind of person you will be happy with.
Look, I've been through this. If my parents had their way, I'd still be under their thumb, they would still be abusing me (I'm 37) in any way they could and they would still make me responsible for everything that ever went wrong with every single member of the family and everything that has ever gone wrong, regardless of whether or not I was even alive at that point.
One day, I finally realized that, as horrible as they were, if I didn't like the person I was, I could change myself into the person I wanted to be. And I did.
Nope, not done, but getting closer, and not now and not for a long time have I felt responsible for their choices.
They are who they are because of their own decisions. I am not them because of my decisions.
Question is, what do you want? What kind of a person do you want to be? You have the choice of figuring that out and then becoming that person. Or you can decide to keep accepting the blame your parents heap upon you.
And no, your mother can't make you become a Buddhist. She might try to make you go to a Buddhist temple, but she can't make you believe anything you don't want to believe. You decide what you let in.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
From the start of the thread...
quote:Which did not say that children are invariably better off if the parents stay together. Also, children of divorce do suffer, in every case, period...just because divorce is never a good thing. Sometimes it's the best thing, in a given situation (beating, drug addiction, cheating are obvious possibilities), but it's never something the child will be happy about. At best, the divorce will be a positive ending to an unhappy relationship, which the child will remember.
I'm one who's grateful his parents divorced. They're both remarkable people, and though I wish to god my mom had more money with which to raise her two sons -- and this is NOT a criticism of her, she's incredible, I just wish life had been easier on her -- my childhood would've been hellish if they'd stayed together. My dad would visit on a monthly basis and over holidays, and if the two spent more than thirty seconds in a room together a nightmare would break out. They're both remarkable people and parents, each in their own way, but they don't belong together.
Squick said it best, the stigma doesn't belong on divorce, it belongs on marriage. Marriage should be sacrosanct -- proselytization of it only cheapens the institution. If a couple can't work out, they should discover that long before either wind up married; and if they foolishly marry before taking the time to explore their compatibility, what idiot would demand they stay together and miserable?
The issue complicates with children, but the basic premise holds. If the children are going to be raised in an abusive or miserable environment, they'll grow to become abusive or miserable adults -- and any responsible parent will take the burden on his or her own shoulders and raise the children free from the consequences of the adults' mistakes. I despise anyone who tries to look down on single mothers -- these are the bravest women alive, and bravo to them for taking on such a struggle.
High divorce rates give me hope, honestly. Often, it means women are freeing themselves from abusive and controlling relationships. Those who criticize high divorce rates are often mistaking their enemy -- target high marriage rates, fools. Bring down the marriage rate, and you'll be skimming off the frivolous and the quick; and see a resulting drastic decline in the divorce rate. And for god's sake, stop declaring all non-marital relationships sinful; guilting children straight into unhappy marriages is the stem of the evil divorce rate so many idiots preach against.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
This has been a wonderful thread. I have learned so much from everyone's posts. About the book, I agree that we need to recognize and hear more about the hurt that is done to the innocent children when parents divorce. Divorce is like a death, it's something that should never be undertaken lightly. The thing is, I don't agree that it often is.
I wholeheartedly agree that marriage and parenthood should not be undertaken lightly. I don't think it's possible to be certain about what will happen, or what a future spouse will be like in 10 or 20 years. There are no guarantees, and just as plenty of people with all the right indicators (stable family, responsible personality, etc.) will still fail, so there will be lots of people who don't come from perfect families who will succeed. Everyone is wounded in some way or another, and we're all imperfect.
The thing I strongly disagree with in Uncle Orson's article is this. "Maybe its time that we, as a society, took back the adult responsibility of actively affirming marriage and disapproving of the breakup of families, openly expressing our contempt for behavior that wrecks marriages and exposes children and more-innocent spouses to the misery that results." I don't see how holding contempt for others, much less openly expressing it, is ever helpful or good. Contempt doesn't inspire people, or model better behavior, nor does it positively affect anyone's life, either the contemptee or the contemptor. Contempt nearly always seems to stem from a mistaken belief in one's own superiority, and a misunderstanding of the true situation.
I honestly don't think anyone can really understand what it's like to be another person. I've seen divorces in which the party who initiated the divorce was roundly reviled by outsiders who claimed it was unnecessary, because there was no physical violence, but I understood why it was essential, and why the marriage was very unhealthy. Obviously divorce should never ever be undertaken lightly, yet I don't believe outsiders can really know or judge what is the true situation in a marriage, and I know that contempt is never a positive thing.
I think the major thing I dislike about Ornery is the contempt that seems so prevalent there, in the few times I've visited, and in the posts of many of the people who came to Hatrack from Ornery over the years. I think a healthy humble view of one's own limitations in knowledge and understanding will nearly always reveal that one's contempt is misplaced.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
(((Tinros)))
I've been near where you are. You are not responsible, you are being made a scapegoat by your mother. And honestly, she is attempting to hurt you to, in turn, hurt your father.
Please, please, please, sit down and talk with a guidance counselor or a pastor or someone older than you that you trust. Your life is far too precious for this kind of hurt to be coming your way.
Your parents will resolve their problems between themselves, just as they have created them. You have done absolutely NOTHING wrong. Be gentle with yourself now, for it seems that others are being unduly rough to you.
(And just remember, there's a whole world of people that love you, both in and outside of your family. Don't do anything to hurt the person we love, okay?)
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
OSC article:"openly expressing our contempt for behavior"
Tatiana:"I don't see how holding contempt for others, much less openly expressing it, is ever helpful or good."
There is a distinct, and important, difference between contempt for behavior and contempt for people. There are all kinds of destructive behaviors that we SHOULD have contempt for. We should make sure people know that we feel this way, because it is an important way of discouraging the behavior. They should know we feel this way BEFORE they actually participate in the behavior, so that they know that we aren't just holding the person in contempt.
I really think that if someone knows that most people feel strongly that something is very wrong, they will be less inclined to do it.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Tinros?
What I've read suggests that, whatever your mother might say, you _are_ a good person. You're trying to do what's best for everyone at a considerable cost to yourself, and you're 17. The state of your adult parents' relationship should not be- is not- your responsibility.
It may sound selfish, but I'll say your responsibility is to make sure that remarkable person who is you gets through this intact so she can emerge into a bigger world and start being around people who will actually benefit from and appreciate the kind of compassion you're showing.
You said you're suicidal. I hope that's an exaggeration. But if it isn't, I plead- hold on. You'd be denying yourself, and others, too much. Things won't always be the way they are now. They can get better. They will. Honest.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
You know, Sterling, that's what my dad told me. Something along the lines of "You're taking things into your hands that have no reason to be there."
I'm not suicidal at the moment- I'm on Lexapro, and things are looking up in that regard. But this is really, really stressful, especially with graduation coming up, and auditions for OSU's music program... ugh. There are times when I'd give anything to be 6 again, not worrying about anything other than the spider in the sandbox, knowing daddy would make everything okay and if I got a boo-boo mommy would kiss it and make it all better. *sigh* Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tinros, you are *not* responsible for your mother's happiness. No matter what she says. I've been there.
My father lived vicariously through me for years, and I was never "good enough". I got an 800 on the verbal section of the PSAT, and I got yelled at because I didn't get the math section perfect too.
The fact is, if she didn't have you to blame, she'd be blaming someone else. If it wasn't this issue, she'd move on to another to complain about. Giving up your own life isn't actually going to make hers any better. Only she can make her life any better, and it sounds like instead of trying to move herself up, she's trying to pull everyone else down to the same level of misery. Why? Cause it is easier. To choose to work on improving yourself takes *hard work* and sometimes that's a hard reality to face. But only until you face that reality, can you become a better person. If she's not ready to face that yet, there isn't anything you can do.
And if it isn't this issue, if you cave on this, I promise she's going to find something else to try to take away.
AJ
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
BannaOj is entirely right, Tinros. The woman you're describing, your mother, did not need you to provide "fault" for this situation. The woman you're describing would have manufactured fault-someone else's, of course-and applied it soon enough.
It's like...let's say your mailman is consistently delivering mail late. You call him on it, criticizing him (without being rude or insulting about it), but it turns out that this mailman fits the stereotype and goes postal. That's hardly your fault. He was already crazy and packing guns. You were just the unlucky trigger in a world full of triggers.
This situation is no more your fault than it's a single wildebeast's fault if it gets picked out of the massive herds by a pride of lions. Those lions were gonna eat something that day. The problem is her irrationality, not your rational actions in the face of that irrationality.
Her depression, if she is clinically depressed, is probably not entirely her fault...but that doeasn't make it your fault, either. Don't cave in on this church thing. It's not just horribly impractical like AJ says (give up now you'll be giving up forever), it's just wrong to do so.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: You know, Sterling, that's what my dad told me. Something along the lines of "You're taking things into your hands that have no reason to be there."
I'm not suicidal at the moment- I'm on Lexapro, and things are looking up in that regard. But this is really, really stressful, especially with graduation coming up, and auditions for OSU's music program... ugh. There are times when I'd give anything to be 6 again, not worrying about anything other than the spider in the sandbox, knowing daddy would make everything okay and if I got a boo-boo mommy would kiss it and make it all better. *sigh*
I wish I could tell you it isn't going to get more complicated, but we'd both know it's a lie.
But "adult" life has some remarkable joys, as well.
It's being a teenager that sucks.
Concentrate on your audition. There you might see some well-deserved rewards. Try not to worry too much about your parents. (I know- that's a little like trying not to think about a pink elephant, but far, far more stressful.)
And if it's not too corny to say so, know that the people here clearly care about you.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I gotta echo this bit:
quote:I wish I could tell you it isn't going to get more complicated, but we'd both know it's a lie.
But "adult" life has some remarkable joys, as well.
It's being a teenager that sucks.
The older I get, the better my life gets. The more I let go of other people's crap and focus on becoming the me I want to be, the happier I am.
It's true - life really does get better. It can for you, too. Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Thanks guys. At least I'm leaving high school now, and when I come back as a teacher I'll have the authority to DO something about the idiots in the world. That's one way working with a band is different than working with some other kind of class- you have to get them to work together somehow. Challenging, but extremely rewarding from what I hear. I'm really looking forward to the rest of my life right about now.
A bit of good news- I got accepted to Ohio State yesterday(my dream school)!
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Congratulations!
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
OSU's great. Don't miss jumping in Mirror Lake at the start of football season, it's an event. And most of the venereal diseases you'll contract from there can be cured.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Oh, of course. I've had a bunch of shots recently at Wright Patt(my dad is retired Air Force), so I should be pretty good.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I am happier at 35 than I was at 30, happier at 30 than at 25, and happier at 25 than 21.....
Life gets better, it really does, at least most of the time. It can be very stressful, but the rewards are much greater as well.
Good luck!
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Tinros,
I think that one of the most wonderful and yet harmful aspects of being a child, is that feeling of invulnerability and power. It is this feeling that allows us to try new things, to dream and finally leave home. It is also this feeling that makes us feel like we've more power in any given situation than we actually do.
I don't completely buy into the idea that we aren't responsible for the happiness of those around us, nor do I accept that we are uniquely responsible for our own happiness. My day can be brightened by a stranger's smile; I can can lift a friend with a hug- we do affect one another everyday in both positive and negative ways.
That said, there are things over which children audaciously assume they have control. Two of these assumptions are completely naive and self-destructive:
1) Their parents' relationship 2) The way that their parents treat them
Because you've decided that you led your father away from your mother by leading him back to his faith, it will be hard for you to accept that this should be an issue separate from the core of your parents marriage. Since, as a child, you've internalized the blame for this, let's look at the second assumption.
Tinros, did you know that children 6 and younger blame themselves for their parents' sexual, physical and mental abuse of them. Somehow they grow-up believing that they "earned" the abuse. I'm not sure if this stems from the feeling of being all-powerful or from the need to keep the parent in an elevated role, but it is completely erroneous.
Tinros, your mother was supposed to take care of you and give you the tools and self-confidence to go out into the world as a whole person who was capable of making good decisions. Your job was to grow-up and become that person.
An aside: because you are a good person, do treat your mom kindly; you will love yourself more for having been gentle with her.
You have made decisions regarding your life and your faith. You did not make these decisions to hurt your mother, but there are very few important decisions in life that don't require a choice to be made. You made the choice to enrich your life and that of your father; you can mourn the fact that you weren't able to make both parents happy, but never regret making the right decision for the right reason.
You sound like a strong person. Good on you for getting into OSU. The best advice I can give you is to talk to yourself as if you were talking to your best friend. Forgive yourself for making the choices you needed to make and celebrate the work you've done to get to where you are.
Remember, in the relationship between you and your mom and dad, you are the child, they are the parents. And if/when you have children of your own, you'll finally understand that a child can neither save nor end a marriage.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
LadyDove speaks the truth! One concept that has been very helpful to me in untangling my confusion over my family, is the idea of stewardship. Every choice has a natural steward (sometimes stewards) who are given the power and responsibility for that choice.
Choices over which you have stewardship (with parents' advice and guidance being taken into account) include whom you will marry, what college you go to, what profession you want to follow, how you dress and wear your hair and makeup, your personal religious beliefs, whom you choose as friends, and how you schedule your time. I found that a good strategy when I lived at home was to concede on things that didn't matter to me and absolutely hold my ground on things that mattered to me a lot.
Choices over which your parents have stewardship (taking your input into account) include how much they will spend for your college and wedding, what rules they require you to follow while you live in their house, such as whether you can bring guests home for meals prepared and paid for by them (and how much notice you must give), what times it's okay to play music others have to hear, and at what volume, the minimum grades they consider acceptable if they're going to continue paying for your college, what household tasks they need you to do in order to do your share, etc.
Once you untangle which things fall under whose stewardship, it's much easier to pick your battles and know when it's right to stand firm (in a friendly and positive way) and when you need to accept their decisions. Sometimes you do far better to lean over backwards in some ways to keep the peace. Other times, no amount of leaning over backwards helps, so it's better to just stay with a neutral position.
I personally dislike the exercise of power in personal relationships. I really don't want to have to dominate others with my will, even if it's only to enforce the requirement that I not be abused or treated with contempt. I find the use of power in personal relationships exceedingly unpleasant. To me, if I have to force you to treat me with respect and decency, then that respect is worth very little.
Unfortunately, there are some groups in which you will be bullied absolutely to the limit you allow yourself to be. Even more unfortunately, one of those groups happens to be my family. So I find that setting clear rules, such as "I refuse to be screamed at", and enforcing them by politely taking my leave whenever they're broken, is a sad necessity.
One thing that helps a whole lot is maintaining your love and sympathy with family members by rendering them loving service at every opportunity you can find. Also, it helps to remember that they are limited human beings who have been wounded in different ways. Sometimes they're acting out the failed scripts that they learned in their own childhood. Other times they are doing things that they actually know better than to do, but they might be too exhausted or weak at the moment to live up to their own standards. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for them is to refuse to be drawn into their way of acting, to do your best to be loving and gentle and to show them a better way.
[ January 01, 2006, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I like that, Tatiana. I think I'll print a copy and discuss it with my son and ex-husband.
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at you for believing her! You are reaching adulthood, and part of that is learning to sort through the various things you are told by those around you, and deciding which ones to accept as true. You were strong enough to make the choice of religious beliefs that differ from hers -- you are strong enough to know that just because she says something is your fault doesn't make it so.
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) about this or anything else, you are not responsible for anyone's choices but your own.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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