quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I find myself almost aggressively uninterested in the adventures of "Cade."

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Since you give no reason why this is so, thank you for replying to my topic for the sole purpose of letting me know you have no interest in the topic!
 

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Posted by Rabid Newz (Member # 7704) on :
 
I'm so glad I'm not a Star Wars geek. No offense Puffy.
 

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Posted by Anti-Chris (Member # 4452) on :
 
Yoda lived to be 900 years old because of his race, not because he was one with the universe. Lukes dead. Or wearing diapens.
 

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Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rabid Newz:
I'm so glad I'm not a Star Wars geek. No offense Puffy.

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If I take offense, it is because you limit my geekdom to Star Wars.
 

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Posted by Rabid Newz (Member # 7704) on :
 
Ok, I'm limiting your geekdom.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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After all I think I read that Luke got married eventually.

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Yup. He married Mara Jade, and in the NJO books (before I gave up and stopped reading them) they had their first child-- Ben.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
Oye... I stopped reading Star Wars with the NJO books. They destroyed the universe if you ask me. I might pick it up again with this comic... maybe...
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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I stopped reading Star Wars with the NJO books. They destroyed the universe if you ask me.

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Yup. I couldn't take it anymore about halfway in and gave it up.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Actually, the NJO did eventually get better again, to the point that it was no longer completely incoherent. There were just too many cooks.
 

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Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
 
I tried a few of the NJO books but could never get into them. Then, a few months ago I checked out one of the books that takes place during the clone wars.

I don't remember the title, but I read about three sentences and had to quit because the writing was so bad.

I'm guessing that's common for many novelizations.
 

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Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
 
I gave up on the third NJO books. I could just never get into them. I think it destroyed the universe too.

In response to the topic, for 25 cents, I guess it can't hurt to check it out.
 

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Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
 
I don't know. That's 25 cents you're probably never going to get back.

And just think, you can get a five minute phone call for just a quarter.
 

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Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
 
Yeah, NJO killed it for me too. I only made it through the first two books before giving up. I did, however, find Timothy Zahn's last Star Wars book to be pretty good. He's one of the few Star Wars authors that I honestly enjoy, and they had gotten him involved in the NJO series I might have actually read them.
 

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Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
You can get a five minute phone call for a quarter?

All the payphones I know charge at least fifty cents....
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
NJO got pretty silly, but I stuck with it and finished the series. It got better. Still, I was less than thrilled with a lot of it.

I'm still considering whether or not I want to read the books that go beyond NJO, there's a lot of them planned.

As for Cade, I'd say great grandson. In the most recent Star Wars book, Ben Skywalker is already the apprentice of Jacen Solo, in another hundred years, it'd have to be Ben's son, or even his grand or great grandson.
 

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Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
 
To be fair to the NJO, a lot of the previous stories were just as bad.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Yes. Like Barbara Hambly's contributions. *shudders* I LOVE her other books. But she and SW do not belong together, obviously.
 

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Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Series writer John Ostrander has popped up on the Dark Horse comics message boards to clarify: While Cade Skywalker -is- a direct descendant of Luke Skywalker, he's not necessarily also a descendant of Ben Skywalker.

So, Luke may have other kids in the upcoming "Legacy of the Force" novel series, or something.
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Hmm... the only expanded universe novels I've read are Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy. I loved those books. They felt like, well, a logical progression of Star Wars.

And Admiral Thrawn rules.

Anyway... I dunno if I'll read the NJO or not. It doesn't look very good, after all.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I loved the X-Wing books. Okay, I love Corran Horn, period. My favorite is I, Jedi.
 

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Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Hmm... the only expanded universe novels I've read are Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy. I loved those books. They felt like, well, a logical progression of Star Wars.

And Admiral Thrawn rules.

Anyway... I dunno if I'll read the NJO or not. It doesn't look very good, after all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I loved the X-Wing books. Okay, I love Corran Horn, period. My favorite is I, Jedi.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I loved the X-Wing books. Okay, I love Corran Horn, period. My favorite is I, Jedi.

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We're kindred spirits KQ. I just finished rereading I, Jedi last night. Corran Horn is my hero, and I, Jedi RULES!

And Mike Stackpole will sign ANY of his books that you send to him so long as you pay for postage and tell him who to sign it to. He specifically mentions I, Jedi, because apparently hardcover copies of the book are very hard to come by now.

I loves mine
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

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An upcoming comic book series from Dark Horse called Star Wars: Legacy, which will be based a hundred years after the end of Return of the Jedi, will feature a direct descandent of Luke Skywalker known as Cade Skywalker. From an early biography of Cade, it is shown that he has completely abandoned the Jedi way and has become a bounty hunter. What lead him to turn away from the Jedi Order, and what happened with the Solo family line, remains to be seen.

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quote:

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it is shown that he has completely abandoned the Jedi way and has become a bounty hunter.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IanO:
Zahn also wrote "Survivor's Quest" concerning the remnants of the Outbound Flight. And he just published "The Outbound Flight", set before EpIII about Palpatine's dispatching of a number of Jedi on the flight and Thrawn. I'll probably get it today.

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quote:

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For me anyway, it's just too far departed from what I've always thought of as Star Wars. The focus is mainly on EU characters, with only a few of the original characters even left with major or even minor roles.

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And yet you like the X-wing books?
 

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Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Anti-Chris:
Yoda lived to be 900 years old because of his race, not because he was one with the universe. Lukes dead. Or wearing diapens.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ketchupqueen:

quote:

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For me anyway, it's just too far departed from what I've always thought of as Star Wars. The focus is mainly on EU characters, with only a few of the original characters even left with major or even minor roles.

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And yet you like the X-wing books?

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Wedge, Janson, Hobbie, Ackbar, Tycho, they were all characters that were in the movie.

By EU characters, I meant characters that were only created by authors in the EU.

I make an exception for Corran Horn. He's just amazing.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Wedge and Ackbar were minor characters; Janson and Tycho were almost unnoticeable. Their character, per se, was created by authors in the EU.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Oh don't get all technical on me.

The EU that is now premised and focused on, as for that matter was MUCH of the second half of the NJO, second generation EU characters, if you think of first generation as characters created in or directly after the movies and then expanded upon.

When the story starts to focus on a bunch of Jedi that I've never heard of, and New Republic officials that I've never heard of, so on and so forth never heard of, as main characters, some of the magic is lost for me. Wedge, Corran, Hobbie, Luke, Mara, I think of them as part of the first generation. They're the generation of the Galactic Civil War. But that's over, and now Jaina, Jacen, Tenal Ka and Ben Skywalker are taking over so to speak.

I'll probably end up reading some of it, but I'm not as excited to get to it.

(Also, the X-Wing books were largely side events, they didn't deal with major crises like the NJO or Thrawn Trilogy did. Fighting Isard and Zsinj was part of a long slug match against the remnants of the Empire and theirs was, in many cases, just a piece of the war)
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I was just teasing you. I think the X-wing books had more of the feel of the original movies than most of the books, regardless of characters.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I've just started reading Outbound Flight so I can't have a fully-formed opinion, but so far it's been pretty freaking great.

It has a bunch of characters from earlier T.Z. SW stuff, such as Thrawn (of course), C'boath (who I really want to learn about), and Car'das.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Oh, and regarding NJO: a bunch of it was garbage. Some was acceptable. Others were very good, such as Traitor and Destiny's Way-in my opinion.q
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Is Outbound Flight the one I saw labeled "AU", which I assume means "alternate universe"?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Ummm...I have no idea, KQ. I'm nearly done with it and it does not appear to be an AU, and I saw no reference to it being so.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I finished it and it's definitely not alternate universe, KQ.
 

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Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rakeesh:
I finished it and it's definitely not alternate universe, KQ.

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How was the book?
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I was looking forward to reading Outbound Flight too.

Tim Zahn is the cat's meow.
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, and Hand of Thrawn books were amazing. I haven't really read any other Starwars universe books besides those; but MAN! They were such good books... I felt like I got to know Luke as Luke, and not as "Mark Hamill the whiny farm boy who cracks me up whenever I watch him get his hand cut off".

Thrawn to me was really the only protagonist that could do anything, and the only reason the republic had any problems. He was the character in the plot that kept me hooked, so I thought that the series lost quite a bit of thunder with the Hand of Thrawn books, even though they were still wonderful pieces of fiction.

My favorite character was probably that cool guy.... I can't think of his name right now. I think he was the head smuggler guy or something (possibly the guy that had trees in his house, and crazy animal dog-like things for pets?).
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Talon Karrde?

And the pets were Vornskrs. Drang and Sturm I think (or Durm and Strang, I always get that mixed up). That was on Myrkyr, and the trees were for the ysalamiri.

Talon and Mara Jade made up a lot of what I liked about those books. But Thrawn made it really worthwhile.
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Yep! That's the guy! I liked those books for the same reasons too.

You have quite a memory.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Useless Star Wars history is one of my many skills, that and useless Lord of the Rings history.

I know entirely too much about things that don't really matter. But I'm afraid they'll take away my "geek card" if I forget.
 

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Nice. Lol. I'm normally good with Starwars movie trivia, just not with the EU stuff.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Outbound Flight was a pretty good book. I wouldn't place it on the same level as Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series, but that's possibly because its scope is quite a bit smaller than either of those series-it is just one book, after all.

It has a lot of story about Thrawn, Car'das, Doriana. He's a figure many more 'casual' Star Wars fans may never have heard of, he was an important aid to both Chancellor Palpatine and Darth Sidious-at the time, the very clever but not clever enough Kinman Doriana is publicly an assistant to Palpatine, but privately a spy, agitator, assassin, and general trouble-maker for Darth Sidious. It's uncertain whether or not he ever gets the full information on that score.

It also has quite a lot about Jorus C'baoth and Lorana Jinzler, two other characters from previous Zahn books.

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SPOILERS

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Perhaps because of its pretty narrow scope, I did not learn as much about Thrawn as I would've liked. In fact, I learned almost nothing about Thrawn I didn't already know. His tactical, strategic, and political genius are explored in more depth and they're illustrated even better because of the smaller forces at his disposal...but then, we already knew he possessed those abilities.

If you're looking to find out why exactly Thrawn ditched the Chiss Ascendancy and signed on with the Empire (while of course still maintaining contacts and building forces inside Chiss Ascendancy space), you're not going to find out in this book.

All you learn is that somehow, Darth Sidious has had visions of an enemy at this point known only as the Far Outsiders-the Yuuzhan Vong. They're coming, they're using organic 'technology', and they're going to kick our asses if we're not ready is the substance of these visions. Whether or not he has any concrete proof is uncertain, but it's pretty clear he knows they're coming from the Force-which is more than a little peculiar in and of itself, since the YV aren't in that particular spectrum. Possibly this is due to Vergere's presence among them, but it's never sorted out.

You also learn that the Chiss Ascendancy and Thrawn know of the YV, too. Apparently they've been on the very outer edges of the galaxy, which is actually inside Chiss Ascendancy space, and the Chiss have fought with them before and won a victory-but they're very concerned with the imminent invasion, obviously.

This at least gives us a reason why Thrawn would be interested in talking to Darth Sidious-and for a man like Thrawn, it wouldn't take very long at all to deduce that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same. When that discovery was made is unclear also.

The part that I wish had been explored was why Thrawn, written to be a tactical and strategic genius who was frequently quite merciful but also capable of astounding ruthlessness when it comes to protecting his people, would sign on with Palpatine and stick with him for so long.

Thrawn is a man who unlike the majority of Chiss, actually cares about the suffering of the little people getting stomped underfoot by conquerors and slavers just outside their borders. So why would he sign on the dotted line with a planet-killer like Palpatine?

I think it's clear from new insights in this book that he would if it were a choice between that and defeat by the YV. But where he comes to that conclusion, or if he has a change of heart, remain to be seen.

Jorus C'baoth was a bit more straightforward than I expected. Arrogant, smug, condescending, intimidating, and bigoted right from the very start, I thought there would be much more of a "descent into madness" story for him. C'baoth has had visions of the YV as well, but it's uncertain whether or not they're as detailed as Sidious's-who, by the way, C'baoth rejects outright as an fraud. "All the Sith are dead, this 'Sidious' is clearly an imposter."

Maybe it was this vision of the future YV wars that drove him nuts, but he had "dark side" written all over him from the very beginning. I personally think Zahn could've done more with illustrating the depth of trouble the Jedi Council was in, that it let a Jedi Master who was eager to use fear as a tool for motivation, keep running around and training Padawans.

Interestingly, Thrawn had direct personal dealings with Jorus C'baoth. Thrawn told Outbound Flight, "You cannot come through here. You must turn around and head back to the Republic...or at least turn around and head a long ways away from Chiss Ascendancy space." C'baoth, by now more than a little power-mad, says, "No," and Thrawn proceeds to thrash him easily.

But then C'baoth gets a video and audio communication link with Thrawn, and goes Vader-choke on his ass. Thrawn's audacity, cunning, and brilliance are thus further illustrated much later when he confronts the cloned C'baoth-it wasn't such an insight for Thrawn to know it was a clone after all

However the good news implied in all my geeking out these past few paragraphs is that it means that there's some more story with Thrawn out there waiting to be told. Whether or not Zahn will tell it remains to be seen, but there are still some major gaps-years worth-that haven't been explored, and hopefully they will be, by Zahn.

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SPOILERS OVER
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
***********SPOILERS AHEAD*********************


I have to agree with all your observations, Rakeesh. It was a great story. But you can tell it is only the tip of the iceberg. In some ways, Thrawn's alliance and rise in the newly formed empire should parallel Sidious' creation and continued manipulation of the same empire. Because, as you pointed out, up to now, Thrawn is still a merciful man. His use of force and desire for order is to create the stable society necessary to fend off any threats, not just the Yuzhon Vong. Sidious, as much as he pontificates about order and peace, is only out for power and revenge. There's no sense of sacrifice- that he's doing it for the people, in the long run. Perhaps that's the lie he tells himself. But he doesn't seem that self deluded or willing to lie to himself. He accepts himself and his beliefs. The strongest should have the power and that is the way of it. No need for moralizing or explaining it away- unlike Thrawn.

So why does Thrawn follow him? The lesser of two evils? Is the Yuzhan Vong that much of a threat that Palpatine and his new order is the lesser evil? Does Thrawn truly know how painful the Vong war will be (and ends up being)? And how does it stack against Sidious' wholely artificial Clone wars, and the subsequent rebellion. That's 23 years of war, folks, with some minor lulls no doubt, verses 10? from the Vong? Thrawn knows that there is no way the Chiss Ascendency is willing to create a galactic wide empire. But still, it's tough to rationalize.

Unless there's much more to it. And that's what I'd like to see.

In fact, I'd definitely like to see that. For no one has been as manipulative and crafty as Palpatine. His machinations have been nothing short of brilliant and he has played everyone, even the Jedi, like a harp. The only person we've ever seen with his ability to read people is Thrawn. I would truly like to read of their relationship. Why didn't Sidious think of him as a threat? Why not get him out of the way? Or did he try?

(C'baoth was a nut job. I honestly can't believe the Jedi council didn't pull that guy. Seriously, talk about heads in the sand. You know, OSC wrote an essay about the Jedi here. He criticized their entire order and showed them basically to be ivory tower elitests interested in preserving the status quo, not making things better. I don't think he realized it, but though he was absolutely right, that was the whole point. The Jedi were absolutely that. Book after book, review after review (for example, ain't it cool news) points out that this is obvious. They are so very myopic and their "handling" of the Chosen One borders on a joke. Only Obi-wan can see what is happening, but everytime he has tried to explain, Mace and Yoda shut him down. Of course, they all pay the price. The entire republic does.

Definitely much more story. And I think that Zahn should definitely do it. Zahn, Luceno (Labyrinth of Evil; Cloak of Deception; Dark Lord- Rise of Darth Vader), Stover (Revenge of the Sith), Sean Stewart (Yoda- Dark Rendezvous) and maybe Troy Denning (Tatooine Ghost, Dark nest) are the true masters of the EU. The rest are mediocre or downright hacks. But Zahn stands at the top.

Brilliant. Just a brilliant book. I hope there are many more.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I'm going to be geeking out here quite a bit, and there will be some spoilers mixed in, so beware...


I agree with you up to the point where you talk about no one being as crafty a manipulative as Palpatine. I think Thrawn trumps him in those areas in every regard, really. Thrawn's origins are much more humble, he does not have the Force to prompt his actions, and most importantly his enemy, unlike Palpatine and the Jedi, are not crippled when it comes to sensing and detecting him.

We still don't know much about Thrawn. He appears to still be a merciful man-within his capacities as a military commander, of course...but as Car'das observed, Thrawn was fully capable of wielding appearances for the point of surgical deception. So...is the merciful but capable of ruthlessness Thrawn of this book the real deal, or is the ruthless capable of enslaving an entire race Thrawn of the Heir to the Empire trilogy bona fide?

I can't guess an answer to that, but as a reader I think Zahn is setting him up to ultimately be the former, based on all the other things he's written about him, most especially in the Hand of Thrawn duo. But on the other hand, we now have three perspectives on Thrawn. Imperial Grand Admiral, enslaver, mass-murderer...inspiring leader, protecting those too stupid to realize they desperately need protection...and military commander, protecting those who ask him for protection, merciful within that mission's limits. The only common factors, really, are all his native brilliance.

You're dead on about the Jedi Order, I think. Their mismanagement, arrogance, negligence, and outright stupidity borders on the criminal.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
From that AICN link of yours, IanO...

quote:

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Obi Wan never takes Anakin out for drinks and just levels with him. Sits him down and explains fascist totalitarianism. He doesn’t explain why sacrificing the most marginal freedoms to create a false sense of security enables those taking on those additional powers to create a greater evil than that which they fear. Hell, nobody really explains to Anakin why Democracy is better than Absolute Rule. Instead it is all this, “Search your feelings” bullshit. Turn to your ancient religion. This is why ultimately Luke Skywalker kicks ass. Because he doesn’t have all this dogmatic bullshit. Because he’s got a buddy like Han Solo that’d be willing to bust ass across the galaxy to save his ass. Somebody that has his back. FRIENDS! Because when the Sith hits the fan, it’s the love of your friends that’ll help you push through and kick ass. Because Luke believes in twin sunsets, the good guys and saving his dad.

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quote:

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Continued a deception against the Nohgri that Vader and Palpy had actually started. That's definitely wrong, but not monstrously so.

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quote:

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Thrawn's character in Outbound Flight is surprising. He seems too smart and basically decent to become the servant of Palpatine that he later becomes.

Ah, but is he really Palpatine's servant? My sense has always been that he was manipulating Palpatine just as much as Palpatine is manipulating him. After all, he only came to the Empire so that he could gain command rank, collect all the military hardware Palpatine was willing to give him, and then get himself kicked back out to the Unknown Regions where he could start his long-term preparations for the coming war against the Yuuzhan Vong.

Not that Palpatine was fooled, of course. I'm sure he knew perfectly well what was going on and figured he was getting as much out of the deal as Thrawn was. Possibly a little more.

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