I've been out of work for a few months now, and it's been one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. I may be a good worker, but I'm apparently a really bad job seeker. In four months only one potential employer has called me back.
So what am I doing wrong? I keep reading that job seekers should follow up with a phone call after sending a resume, but this has been fruitless every time I've tried.
Can anyone give me some advice on how to improve my chances of getting an interview and being hired?
[ February 17, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Father Time (Member # 7985) on :
Deep subject. Perhaps it's your resume? Lot of questions come to mind--what is your skill set, what industries, willing to relocate?, experience, training, education. As one who recevies and reads tons of resumes and hires people, I can tell you the cover letter is very important. Next, you must show in 30 seconds on your resume that you have the skills they are looking for.
If not, more than likely your resume will get the axe.
Not that I'm an expert, but I'd be willing to review it and offer suggestions. I may be able to help you network in your area after reviewing your web site.
Remember, network, network, network. It really is who you know that makes a difference.
Posted by OSTY (Member # 1480) on :
Jon Boy...It is hard to give advice with out knowing what field you are looking to work in? But a few tips, check your resume and have someone look at it at a work source center or even a friend to see if they have questions about your skills, education or work histoy. Are you sending a cover letter?
Looks like he's not online anymore, so I'll try to answer some questions (I'm his wife).
1. He is willing to relocate. We live in Utah, but he has applied to jobs in several states, sometimes as far away as Virginia. Still, we'd rather not move if we don't have to.
2. He is an editor primarily, but he has strong writing skills as well (no job experience as yet).
3. He graduated from BYU in April (same as me). Before graduating, he worked part or full time as an editor for about four years. He worked as an editor after graduation too, until he was laid off in early October. All of his previous bosses would give him a positive recommendation, some of them downright glowing.
4. The problem in the editing field is that everyone wants someone very specific. They don't just want an editor; they want an editor who has welding experience and experience managing other editors at a welding publication. Jon Boy's experience is primarily in educational and academic editing, if that helps.
5. We both hate cover letters. Seriously, there are so many different bits of advice out there that it's hard to know what to trust.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I've tried applying to many jobs out of the area. Unfortunately many employers see a far away address and just throw your resume away. I've had them tell me that before.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Might it help to say somewhere in the cover letter that you're willing to relocate?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Stephan, really? I was afraid of that. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Stephan, really? I was afraid of that.
Mom the HR executive concurs. She says that why hire someone who will expect you to pay for re-location unless you've exhausted all possible local candidates first? So even if the out-of-state resume doesn't get trashed, it will definitely be on the back burner.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
So what's the best thing to do when you're living in a state where there aren't any jobs open? I honestly couldn't take the leap of faith and move somewhere in hopes of finding a job there. What if you got there and ran into the same situation?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
We generally only considered non-local applicants who stated in their cover letter why they were interested in the area and that they'd cover moving costs.
Even with that, they might not get past the non-local address.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
My best advice for finding a job is go get a job. Even if it isn't something you want. I've always had good luck being employed from temporary agencies. The last two jobs I got before I quit working were hires from temp jobs.
The longer you're unemployed, the larger the gap on your resume between the current date and the date of departure from your last job - the "scarier" you are to a potential employer.
What about magazine or other publishing companies? Sometimes they have paid internships available too. If you're really not earning anything at all, even taking an unpaid internship for a short period of time might pay off in the long run.
quote:5. We both hate cover letters. Seriously, there are so many different bits of advice out there that it's hard to know what to trust.
You're going to have to get over that. The cover letter is sometimes more essential than the resume. My Mom gives it higher consideration than she does a resume. Her reasoning is that most people can get help putting together a resume but cover letters are written specifically for the job they're applying for and it tells her more about them. She's tossed many a resume in the garbage without reading it because the cover letter wasn't up to snuff.
By the way, she loves her job, and is very good at it - she gets hired by other companies to act as a consultant and gives HR seminars. If you want advice on a particular cover letter, you can let me know and I'll pass it along to her. Or post it here - kat did that and got some good feedback.
I'll reiterate something else I said in kat's thread - be available. Make sure your contact information is current and that the phone number is one with voice mail. I've been in Mom's office when she called an applicant, got no answer and no way to leave a message and she tossed the resume away.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
Interesting thread.
I'm also looking for work, and I'm specifically looking in areas AWAY from my current location. Per the advice here, I'll start mentioning relocation in my cover letters.
(No, seriously, you're doing me enough favor by hiring me in a different line of work, I'll pay my own moving expenses... )
[ February 08, 2006, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Tstorm ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Here's my resume. I try to modify it to fit every position I apply for. And yes, I always send a cover letter. I may have no idea how to write a really great cover letter, but I always give it my best shot because I understand how important they are.
Right now, my dream job is to work for an educational or academic publisher, but I'm open to a lot more than that. One problem is that there are very few publishers in Utah, and, apparently, my chances of getting an out-of-state job are slim.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
What sort of positions are you applying to at those publishers? Your resume seems really heavily tilted towards copyediting and proofreading, which are jobs generally done by freelance contractors.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
My resume is "tilted" towards editing because that's what I do—I'm an editor, as Brinestone already said. And as far as I know, most publishers have a full-time staff and then hire freelancers if they have more work.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
"Editor" is a pretty broad term in the publishing world, encompassing positions that included little or no copyediting or proofreading. It'd be easier to comment on your resume if I had a clearer idea of the sort of job openings to which you're applying. Maybe you could link to a couple of postings to which you've responded?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jon Boy, have you applied to the Waterford Institute Inc.? They are a non-profit company in Provo that makes educational books and software and whatnot. We had a good friend years back who worked there (I think) as an editor.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Might I suggest doing something to make the job titles stand out a little more? When I go through it myself, nothing really catches my eye. It all looks pretty bland. Use some contrast to kick it up a notch *BAM!* Yeah. Okay. I'll quit doing that Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
A couple of general suggestions, for what they're worth. You may already be using them in your more tailored resumes, but. . . .
Try to list a few of the specific desktop publishing and typesetting software packages you're familiar with.
Pick a few publications you've worked on that are closest to what the company in question does, and throw in their titles (". . .edited books, including x and y. . .") to emphasize that you really are interested in them, not just editing in general (even if you aren't).
If you have any experience working directly with authors to resolve some sort of conflict, try to add a line or two about that to demonstrate your interpersonal skills.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I dunno if this is helpful, but my dad once told me that in applying for jobs, he would try to find out as much as he could about the company and use that knowledge to his advantage. He'd be able to use that knowledge to show interest in the specific needs of his employer and how he could be a great asset to them--and that was always attractive.
That could be exhausting to do for every company, but it might be easier to do for select local ones.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Here's a random question:
With his resume, what jobs outside editing would Jon Boy be qualified for?
Obviously editing would be first choice, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to keep options open.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Technical writing.
Documentation specialist.
Graphic design?
Web design.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Take off the year that you started going to to BYU - you are communicating how young you are. Since you are still in the "first job" stage, I think it is okay to put graduation date, but other people may disagree.
Posted by Historian (Member # 8858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Technical writing.
Documentation specialist.
Graphic design?
Web design.
I agree on the technical writing (in fact I was going to suggest it up until I saw your post), but Graphic Design and Web Design are going to require a portfolio.
I'm used to looking at technical resumes which usually have a ton of skills listed. In fact my skills are listed on their own page.
As for yours, just about every job lists the follwing "Edited, proofread" in some form or another. I'd like to know some detail. so how about this; "Edited, proofread, source checked, and indexed the following academic books and journals:". If that doesn't look right list all of them on their own heading like the Skills.
I'm not a big fan of bulletted lists either, a personal thing. I've got one or two paragraphs that detail what I did while I was with the company.
quote:Directed, established, maintained, and planned the overall policies and goals for the product development department. Coordinated and negotiated with the marketing and sales group. Drove product web release strategy, interacted with sales, development, and product marketing to define these requirements. Defined the marketing requirements for the company web site and managed the product development process by translating user testing and customer support feedback into feature/function requirements.
Created Portal applications, Extranet and B2B systems, Customer services tools and reporting engines. Designed application GUIs as well as the images used within them. Client and Server side scripting, coding a number of applications to provide end users with tool to administer their accounts, while maintaining security, data integrity and functional standards. Designed additional graphical elements for use in advertising, newsletters and promotional materials.
It's a matter of tastes...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I once heard a man in charge of hiring new people say that, if he got a big bunch of applications for one position, he would cut it in half and drop one half in the waste basket. His reasoning was that he did not want to hire anyone who was unlucky.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I'm sort of in the same boat as you, Jon Boy, just getting out of college and looking to expand in a field where my limited experience is very specialized.
I wrote my resume and cover letters off the top of my head with no real effort, and I have somehow been receiving a ton of calls for interviews in fields where I have no experience, and occassionally no knowledge. The only difference that I can see between your resume and mine is character.
There isn't anything in your resume that sticks out. This isn't to say your previous positions are unimpressive, just that reading them on your resume, they sound boring. Formatting, obviously, is a matter of taste between people. I have mine set up with personal info in a column down the left side thats maybe 1 1/2 inches. The rest is in the right hand columb.
I'd just try to jazz up some of your duties and experiences. Use longer sentences that add more detail and make your duties sound a bit....hard to find a word for it, but make them sound more difficult and interesting? Not really...but I think what I'm going for is to make it sound like you are doing something other people cannot or have not done. That way you will stick out more.
For what it's worth, it seems to be working for me so far.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I think one of my problems is that I don't know what to put in the way of accomplishments. Editing a book isn't an accomplishment to me—it's just my job.
Posted by Father Time (Member # 7985) on :
Lots of good advice here but as you are quickly learning, everywhere you go will have a "flavor of the day" approach to resumes.
Your resume, like so many others I read is based on what you can do, but does not sell you to a potential employer on what you accomplished. I'm looking for the results of your responsibilities. Your job is to sell yourself to the employer.
No offense to Historian as he gave you some sound advice, but, the first line of his quote is an example of what he did--not his accomplishments. I bet he lists his accomplishments somewhere in his resume.
In my industry, I could say I manage $50M in government contracts. Sounds impressive but it doesn't tell you that I lost $30M of them due to poor management (not really!). I clearly look for what you did and how you did it in your resume.
True, you are entry level but I'm willing to bet you did a good job at the ones you listed. Did you save them money? Did you decrease the number of erors in printed materials? Did you establish a new process that enables you to edit in less time but with higher efficiency?
Take a look at the proposal industry. There are a gazillion companies that must write proposals to the government to win contracts. It's a big business and they look for technical writers, editors etc. These jobs can pay well. The stakes are very high and simply using the wrong font size can cost a company a government contract. Editors become a valuable resource.
Call Shipley Associates in Farmington UT and ask about their training--they are the best in the US today in proposals. Also look at UT published magazines with a national market such as Keepsake for example.
Finally, try a "targeted" resume as opposed to some of the standard formats. It is a hard hitting resume with material that is missing from yours that I bet you have at your disposal.
Hope this helps
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Better, but you still have the dates in there. You do not need the dates you were in school. It isn't a gap if it comes before your college graduation date.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
That one definately looks better. Your skills list makes you stick out now. It exhibits confidence and will likely make people who read it smile in some way. If they're smilin', you'll be remembered. Keep working on it.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Oopsie. The one you saw, Katie, was only slightly revised. The more-revised one is up now.
That's exactly my problem, Father Time—I have no idea if I reduced the number of printed errors or saved my employers money or anything of that sort. I know that my supervisors have loved me and have considered me an extremely good editor, but I don't know how to quantify any of that in terms of accomplishments.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I like that resume much better. It looks good. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I've done some pretty heavy revisions of my resume this weekend, and here's the new version. Comments?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Jon Boy--
:echoes what Father Time said:
It's painful, but each resume should be tailored to fit the company you're sending it to.
From what I've seen of your resume, you'd do pretty well in the technical writing arena-- I know SAIC, a government contractor has opening for technical writers and editors in Virginia and DC.
Another thing-- don't be afraid to apply for jobs that you may not be PERFECTLY qualified for. I didn't have a lick of network engineering experience when I applied for a position with a computer helpdesk; but I let them know that, and let them know that I was an exceptionally fast learner. Turns out I was good enough.
Similarly, I don't have much experience in technical writing or editing-- but guess what I'm doing now? It takes a combination of moxy, savvy, gumption, and honesty-- but it's the best way I know to get and keep a job.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Perhaps I should make it clear that I do send customized resumes for every application. The one I posted is my starting point.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Err... sorry.
As long as I'm posting about SAIC, Lockheed-Martin is looking for a few editors/writers as well. So is Northrop Grummond.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
So, does anyone have any feedback on my resume?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I like it this way.
Probably because it's now in a format similar to mine. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Under BYU work experience, the department you worked for and the job title look the same. It's difficult to tell upon immediate glance what's going on. I would suggest that you make each level distinct so that it's immediately obvious what's going on where.
Also, it feels crowded, like you're trying to force it to one page. Personally, I'd prefer it going to two pages with more white space - it would be easier to read and to assimilate the information.
I would add an Accomplishments section after Skills. It can include things like:
Revised, maintained, and/or expanded company/house/project style guide, software user manuals, and employee training manuals. (You did a lot of this sort of thing from what I can tell - also well worth emphasizing. Whether you have the style guide, software user manuals, and employee training manuals in the same sentence or separately will depend on how much you want to emphasize it.)
Worked on rush jobs with tight deadlines with little supervision.
Solved style sheet numbering problems in Microsoft Word by creating custom work-around.
Trained coworkers on grammar and style. (This is fairly important. It shows a whole other set of skills other than editing, including that you know your stuff well enough to teach others and that your bosses trust you enough to have you do the training. Well worth emphasizing.)
Updated and maintained Web site content.
The point of separating this stuff out is that it emphasizes in particular how you've applied the skills you have. Of course, you'll want to clean it up and possibly add more - that's just to give you an idea of what you can use for accomplishments. I would still leave those points under the specific job and employer to give it context.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Quid, last night I was telling him to emphasize those exact same accomplishments. I feel validated. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
You're welcome! Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I like that idea, Quid. I worry a little bit about going over a page, since it seems like everyone tells you not to, but if all the important stuff is at the top, then I suppose it doesn't matter as much if they don't read the second page.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Does "heavy substanitive edit" mean something specific in editing circles? Cause otherwise heavy and substanitive seem redundant to me.
otherwise v2 is much better than the other. I think there has to be a way to condense your BYU info down, so that you have more white space on the page. I think white space on a page, and one page only is vitally important. White space makes things feel clean and organized.
I think I would divide it up functionally, and worry less about the dates of duration. You've got the total duration of your time at BYU at the top.
Manuscript editor for x departments. Highlight exciting things from each. Copy editor for x departments (cause you have copy editor underneath manuscript editor) Again highlight a specific acomplishment that wows and zows.
You could also throw in webdesign and highlight it separately from the copy editing, and proofreading also. It highlights your skillz, not just which department you were working for.
AJ
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Latest version. I think I should either move the software skills to the bottom or scrap it altogether. Another friend of mine said that I'd probably want to include stuff like that in the cover letter so they can know up front that I'm capable.
The point of "heavy substantive edit" was to emphasize that it was a heavier-than-normal substantive edit, you're right about it sounding redundant.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Whether you should do everything you can to stay at one page or whether you should go to two pages depends more on your specific industry than anything else. Personally, when I was the one who did the hiring, nearly every resume I saw was two pages or more. Three and up were more problematic, but that was due more to people not knowing how to throw a coherent resume together. But then, spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors combined with obvious ESL errors were even more problematic, especially as we advertised for someone who had the proper communication skills in English.
Honestly, I can't imagine not going over a page on a resume, especially after you've acquired relevant job experience and skills, which you have. If you stay with the one page only format, you run the risk of not displaying relevant information, or crowding things in so that it presents badly. Is the whole one page thing a recent fad?
I notice that your skills section is gone, and I'm guessing it's due to lack of room. Have you reworked those items into other places in your resume, or are you planning to mention them in your cover letter?
I like your more recent version better than the last one.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Some things were deleted because they essentially repeated things mentioned in my job summaries, some things were reworked or combined, and some things will go in the cover letter.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Anyone want to give me feedback on my resume? I'm applying for an editing position with an educational publisher.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The cover letter is going to be key, do you have it ready yet?
I'll send it over to mom and ask her opinion, I'll tell her to give me a "first-read" on it and let me know what jumps out at her.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I'm working on the cover letter right now and will post it shortly.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Okay.
I copied and emailed it to her because I don't know if she was able to read the link, she didn't keep a copy of it though. (I don't know if it would bother you that she would or not, but she's sensitive about other people's private information like your address and phone number and wanted to make sure I told you she wasn't going to steal your identity or anything.)
Keep in mind hers is just the opinion of an HR person, not the person trying to hire you and she freely admits she's never looked to hire an editor before and doesn't know if the resume would appeal to someone looking for an editor or not.
That said, she noticed some of the problems already spoken about. The fact that you haven't held down a long-term position since leaving school. The fact that you've been out of work since September, which leaves a gap in the resume. Aesthetically, she said it looked crowded on the page, and was a bit hard to read but she knows that you were trying to keep it down to one page (which is recommended).
She never likes goals on the resume, thinks they're trite and silly and prefers that you articulate what you're really looking for in the cover letter.
She did like the way the accomplishments were listed up front. You should always go with your best features first on the resume. She also said it probably wouldn't hurt to switch your education and software knowledge up above your work experience, because your work experience is the weakest point. And she said, that if she were looking for an editor, she imagines that what software he knew would be of pretty primary importance to her so maybe that should be moved up to a more prominent spot.
She asks if the position you're applying for would include any supervisory duties and whether or not you've supervised before. If you have supervised, that needs to be in there. Also, were you ever responsible for budgets? That needs to be mentioned as the ability to work within a budget is something that's always good.
Two things that she said were promising - the mention that you've worked in a team successfully and that you've worked with the authors on their text. That tells her that you can get along with and work with people, something that she's always on the lookout for.
Mom says good luck. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Thanks, Belle.
Here's the cover letter:
To: person@address.com
Subject: Editor Position
Dear Person:
While reviewing the [company] Web site, I came across the editor position with the Nursing Department. With my expertise in educational and academic editing, I believe I am perfectly suited to this position, and I would love to help the [company] continue to publish quality educational material.
While working for Brigham Young University’s Department of Independent Study, I quickly became known for my ability to handle challenging projects while still providing quick turnaround time and a very high standard of editing and production.
I continued to expand my editing expertise at Visual Communications, where I was responsible for researching and writing articles and editing and proofreading promotional material for all the departments in the Division of Continuing Education.
[Supervisor], my supervisor at the Religious Studies Center, said of me, “We have greatly depended on [Jonathon’s] editing expertise to complete many long and difficult projects on time and with success.” Those projects include the published books Latter-day Saint Nurses at War: A Story of Caring and Sacrifice; A Descriptive Bibliography of the Mormon Church, vol. 2; and Window of Faith: Latter-day Saint Perspectives on World History.
I am confident that my expertise, dependability, and dedication will prove to be an asset to the [company]. I would like to be granted an interview with you so that we can further discuss my qualifications for the position. I was born in Mesa and would love the chance to move back to the area. If you would like to contact me, I can be reached throughout the day at [number] or at [email address].
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,
Jonathon Owen
PS: I am including my resume both in PDF form and in plain text below for your convenience.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
One piece of advice I was given was not to beg for an interview. I would revise this sentence:
quote:I would like to be granted an interview with you so that we can further discuss my qualifications for the position.
this way:
quote:You can reach me throughout the day at [number] or at [email address] to schedule an interview.
Then delete the last sentence. That makes the sentence about being born in Mesa a little out of place. Hm. I'm not sure where I'd put it. Maybe it's okay.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:While reviewing the [company] Web site, I came across the editor position with the Nursing Department. With my expertise in educational and academic editing, I believe I am perfectly suited to this position, and I would love to help the [company] continue to publish quality educational material. I was born in Mesa and would love the chance to move back to the area.
You'd have to change one of the "loves," of course.
quote:I am confident that my expertise, dependability, and dedication will prove to be an asset to the [company]. You can reach me throughout the day at [number] or at [email address] to schedule an interview.
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