This is topic X Men The Last Stand (Spoilers) in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=043128

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Remember, spoiler laden thread!


I have to say, I fully expected Jean to die. I even fully expected, once they explained it, for the cure to only be a temporary thing.

I didn't expect them to kill Cyclops in the first 20 minutes of the movie, and rather mysteriously at that. It was such a...pointless, useless death. And we didn't even really know what happened to him until much later.

Some of the movie was satisfying, I've always sort of wanted to see an all out brawl like we saw. But at the end when Magneto more or less got his powers back, I was a little disappointed. He's already more or less out of character. The only shadow of the Magneto that I liked was when he defended Xavier to Pyro, but other than that, and when he yelled "Jean no!" as she killed Xavier, their relationship is fairly black and white, with little of the complexity from the comics or cartoon.

I was however satisfied, and not surprised when Xavier was alive at the end.

What really disappointed me about Magneto getting his powers back, is that if there is a fourth movie, he'll be the bad guy. I'd really like to see Apocalypse make an appearance. I think they've ruled out Mr. Sinister, now that Jean and Scott are dead. On the bright side of the deaths, now they can bring in more characters.

Side note, for all you looking for Gambit. The role of Gambit was offered to Josh Holloway of LOST, but he turned it down, saying Gambit was too much like Sawyer.

Thoughts?
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
It's possible that Magneto won't be the bad guy if there's another movie...after all, I think the experience of being human for a while would be pretty humbling to him.

I almost cried when Xavier died. I do think, however, that his whole position on controlling Jean's power was presented a little too harshly.

At any rate, the movie had pretty colors.

I was annoyed that Colossus didn't have a Russian accent. I loved Juggernaut. I have no idea who that androgynous individual was supposed to be, and until that, "Ladies?" part, I was wondering if it was a really skinny chick with no hips, or a dude with boobs. It was like Michael Jackson!

I actully liked a lot of the during-fights banter. And I maintain that honestly, I can't think of anyone else who'd be better to play Beast.

Those are my random, just-woke-up thoughts.

-pH
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I also didn't get why Jean had to die...couldn't he have stabbed her with those mutant cure needles?

...and why DID she kill Scott? Not that I wasn't happy to see him die. He's annoying.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 

quote:

---

I was annoyed that Colossus didn't have a Russian accent. I loved Juggernaut. I have no idea who that androgynous individual was supposed to be, and until that, "Ladies?" part, I was wondering if it was a really skinny chick with no hips, or a dude with boobs. It was like Michael Jackson!

---

THANK YOU!

I was annoyed to no end that he didn't have a Russian accent. And I couldn't tell if that chick was really a chick or not either until he said "Ladies."

I don't care that Jean died. She died more or less the same way in the originals, so, I think most people say it coming. Scott's death was pointless. I can't imagine she'd muster the control to stop herself from killing Logan, but the Professor and Scott were fair game. Scott was the one who saved her in the original.

Also, where was Psylocke in the movie? The credits list her, but I don't remember seeing her.
 

---

Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
 
So I don't know much about the comics, but does Jean come back after being killed? And I'm assuming that Mystique will get her powers back and join the good side now. Of course, I'm not sure how much the X-men could trust her. I would doubt her motivations, since her desire to do good would be only out of revenge on Magneto. And if Magneto did become good, then she would have to be evil still

Is it also true that they are making an X-men movie centered on Wolverine? That would be cool.
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I'm told that there is a clip after the credits that gives a hint as to the subject matter of the 4th film. Whether this indicates that it'll be Woverine centered or not I can't say, as I won't be seeing the movie until Monday.
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
The clip after the credits doesn't really tell you what'll happen in a possible fourth movie. But it does open some doors.

As for a Wolverine movie, that's already greenlighted. It won't really be an Xmen movie per se, it's all about him. I'd be surprised if the X-Men were in it at all, or made anything more than a cameo.

I would say it'd be about his history as Weapon X, but they already glossed over that in the second movie, and they've gotten rid of a couple more of his bad guys since then. Maybe Omega Red? If so, I'd like to see Colossus involved in it, but I'm guessing they'd never do that.
 

---

Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
Oooo I didn't wait until the end of the credits. But really? A fourth movie? I thought this movie was called the last stand for a reason.

I almost cried when Xavier died as well. He was incredibly awesome, and I don't see why he had to die. I won't say anymore about the movie because I never read the comics and I don't want to be considered a noob. All in all, though, I enjoyed it thouroughly.
 

---

Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
 
"I was however satisfied, and not surprised when Xavier was alive at the end. "

What?? He was?? Or do you mean Magneto? I was so sad when Xavier died, he was so awesome. What happened at the end of the credits?
 

---

Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
 
I forget who the doctor was that found Xavier after the credits? I only caught the tail end of that post-credits clip. I walked back into the theater looking for my sister, only to see that clip playing. I felt so much better after watching it, because I was sure Xavier hadn't died. I even told my brother he wasn't dead during the movie, and I was shocked when they left him dead. But I don't know the context for that clip. That female doctor or nurse looked familiar, but I can't place her.
 

---

Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
 
One sure fire way to tell when a movie will be the last of the series is when its bombs at the box office and the fans don't want to see another and there is little hope of making money on a sequel.

I think we can expect sequels.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaalDornick:
"I was however satisfied, and not surprised when Xavier was alive at the end. "

What?? He was?? Or do you mean Magneto? I was so sad when Xavier died, he was so awesome. What happened at the end of the credits?

---

quote:

---

Is it also true that they are making an X-men movie centered on Wolverine? That would be cool.

---

They did. It's called X-Men. It was released a few years ago. And then X2: Even More Wolverine

--Enigmatic
 

---

Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
 
Oh, I really shouldn't have come in here. They kill Cyclops?
He was pretty.
 

---

Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
The movie dealt with a lot of important issues, almost so many that it didn't do any of them well. The most elegant, from my view, was Magneto's speech at the mutant community meeting. He was absolutely correct, btw. They can talk about citizens committees, volunteer registration and volunteer cures, then it would be volunteer immigration, then all of it would become forced as soon as there were a few mutant related human fatalities. The parallels with the Jewish organizations springing up, facilitating the Nazi solutions were striking.

Another issue that was broached was of authority. I'm reading this essay by Mortimer Adler where he makes a case for authority as distinct from tyranny. He sets freedom as submission to the right rule, and his right rule is reason, and for him, it is the primacy of reason, not unbridled choice, which constitutes freedom. He goes farther to say that that's where the authority of parents over children comes from, not biological right, but a clearer insight to reason. How does this relate to the movie you ask.

Prof. X bifurcated Jean's mind, exerting his authority over her choice, yet we are supposed to recognize Prof. X's decision as a necessary evil. That that's the evil which, to a large extent, propagates this entire mess and builds distrust is a move straight out ancient tragedy.

What do you all think about the Prof's decision to barricade Jean's mind without her input? Can his use of his authority be morally defensible. Who is to say if schizophrenia could have been avoided? And what do you think about parents sneaking kids ritalin or depressants?

[ May 26, 2006, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I love the Professor, so I really don't want to think ill of him. Even though he isn't a real person.

I wish he was a real person. He's a nice guy.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Prof. X bifurcated Jean's mind, exerting his authority over her choice, yet we are supposed to recognize Prof. X's decision as a necessary evil. That that's the evil which, to a large extent, propogates this entire mess and builds distrust is a move straight out ancient tragedy.

---

quote:

---

What do you all think about the Prof's decision to barricade Jean's mind without her input?

---

quote:

---

They did. It's called X-Men. It was released a few years ago. And then X2: Even More Wolverine

---

quote:

---

Do not watch this movie, if you haven't already.

Just thank Bryan Singer for the first two X-Men movies and walk away while
you still can.

---

 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'd like to see someone like Joss Whedon do a fourth movie to get the whole thing back on track.

Not necessarily Whedon himself, as I'm not sure I'd like what he'd do with the dialogue, but I trust that he'd be true to the characters, and to character development, which was more or less left on the side of the road in this last movie, except for what I'd almost call a couple shout outs to character depth, the movie was wholly lacking.

Also, I think it's ironic that this same situation was faced in the original X-Men by Stan Lee (the cartoon I think). There was a "cure" invented, though in that case it was a fake cure. Rogue was to be the first to get it, because she was depressed that she could never touch another human. But in the end she decided not to get it, that she'd rather remain who she was born to be. And then Warren went and got the treatment, and became a slave of Apocalypse (perfect segue to a fourth movie ruined). But in this case Rogue faced the same test and made the opposite choice.

Though I guess it's a moot point, since everyone "cured" is only temporarily fixed.

Here's a question: Omega Red is listed as uncredited on IMDB. Where the heck was he in the movie? or Psylock? Or Siryn?
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I liked it a ton, even where it differed from the comics.


Beast in the comics is always seeking a cure himself, and they rescued the boy whos power was to "cure" mutants of their powers, so that could still works.

I believe that while Charles made a lot of choices, Jean allowed him to do so...her powers outpaced his even as a child. She was not completely aware of her own power, but knew Xavier was helping her remain in control.

Xavier awakens in Coma man's body, as the nurse is the same I believe, and he was discussing that very thing with his class when Storm interrupted his lecture with the storm clouds.

We have yet to see how the "cure" affects mutant powers long term. I would guess that while it may be possible for mutants fo regain their powers it weakens them, perhaps for good.

Also, in the comics they make a good case for caging Pheonix, even with the moral issues raised, as left uncaged she would have destroyed the Earth.

I liked how the comics dealt with Phoenix better, and liked the resolution better there as well...but I think the movie was excellent overall.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I really want to see Nina.

Question: The tattoos...similar to Bishop's? I mean, granted he's from the future...
I just felt like we missed a lot between 2 and 3. Sentinel? Mutant in the cabinet? Mutants supposedly accepted by humanity even though a pharmaceutical company went out of its way to create a "cure?"

I want an X 2.5.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Parts of it had so much potential. Jean meeting Xavier and Magneto as a girl. Angel trying to amputate his wings as a little boy.

Mystique, who stole her brief scenes.

Jean's reintroduction.

Beast, who didn't get to do nearly enough.

The rest? Forgettable. If it weren't for that delightful surprise after the credits, I would've labeled this a "What If?" entry and dismissed it from my mind.

Now...I wanna see someone save this series.
 

---

Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 
Now maybe it's just because I'm not extremely knowledgeable on the topic of X-men, but do you guys really think that it's that terrible of a movie? I'm led to believe that most people here think that it's not even a decent movie compared to general movie standards. I thought it was a pretty dammed good flick. Sure it could've been better; and I understand that it must be annoying for you big X-men fans out there when this might be the last one- but by normal movie standards, I think it was quite above average, even if it is a tad worse compared to X2.

Also, aren't they making a Magneto spin-off also? I think it's supposedly going to take place when he's a teenager or something.
 

---

Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
I haven't read anyone say it's a terrible film.
 

---

Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
A Magneto spin-off from when he was a teenager?

That'd be horrible. Like Shindler's List meets the Brotherhood of Evil.

pH -

I got the feeling that the tattoos were just supposed to be a sort of mark of pride, whereas Bishop and Shard's tattoos were virtual scarlet letters, it's why they were both M's.

Puffy -

I think you've highlighted the main problem with this particular movie. Too many cooks, so to speak. They put in so many characters and possible subplots in one movie that no one issue really had a chance to seek fruition. Rogue's story got a start at the beginning, then we don't see her again until the end. Might as well of just cut her out altogether, there was enough anxiety over the cure elsewhere, and that whole "I don't want to be a mutant, it ruins my life" angle could have easily been put on any other character. Rogue was useless, which just makes it all the more pointless to have changed her character into it's child form.

I felt like Mystique was there just to be bitchy for most of it, and other than that, was just a pawn to highlight how committed and cold Magneto was when it came to his crusade.

Beast I thought had a surprisingly large role in the movie, though I would have loved to see a lot more from him.

If they do make another one, I think:

1. It should focus on a smaller amount of characters, Wolverine not being among them. He's had more than enough exploration and screen time.

2. Do a different nemesis than Magneto. Or, if they are going to do Magneto, go into his mind a bit more. He goes through different phases in his character. From genocidal "kill all the humans" to Asteroid M and just wanting to be left alone. All the while, he's Xavier's friend, they just disagree on the methods of how to achieve a basic goal: Mutant freedom/liberation. In many ways, it's the world's treatment of Xavier that fuels his anger towards the humans of the world. He's so much more complicated (and nicer to Xavier) than we're seeing on screen.

3. Consider doing a duology or trilogy that takes place in a much shorter span of time. How many years were to have elapsed between the second and third movie? Like someone said above, way too much happened in between, characters were randomly killed off and new ones added. It was jarring, and not at all seamless. They should think about a specific enemy, a specific plot with fleshed out subplots, and then break it into three pieces, instead of trying to jam three movies worth of material into one movie. Fans will be okay with seeing a 2 and a half hour X-Men movie, there's no reason they need to be so short. CGI is getting better, and cheaper, to do all the time.

I felt like especially in this last movie, it was using fantastic stuff but more or less ripping out the heart of the matter in favor of the whole "woohoo, look at the cool fights!" thing. There's a lot more to it, and I'd like to see that added back in.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Beast in the comics is always seeking a cure himself, and they rescued the boy whos power was to "cure" mutants of their powers, so that could still works.

---

In Wheedon's X-title, Wolverine threatens to kill Beast if he takes the cure - and he pretty much means it.
 

---

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
If the movies were being made for the comic book fans, the movie would be about as successful as Serenity and there would have been no sequels. The chemistry between the lead actors is what makes it a blockbuster, and so the same lead actors will dominate this and future productions. Sorry. I know I'm part of the problem.
 

---

Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
 
Whee, that was fun! If it were my story, I would have had Jean kill Scott in that hoo-hah at her house, and Professor X at the big showdown at the end, before being killed in turn by Wolverine. I think that would have made the deaths a lot more dramatic and meaningful, instead of all three feeling sort of... eh. But still, it was a fun ride, and we enjoyed it.

On a side note, did anyone else's audience erupt into HUGE whoops and cheers at the Snakes on a Plane teaser?? I've never seen an audience respond like that to a trailer, ever! It was hilarious.
 

---

Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

---

I believe that while Charles made a lot of choices, Jean allowed him to do so...her powers outpaced his even as a child.

---

I thought that in the conversation between Wolverine and Xavier, Xavier make it clear that he did not consult Jean before erecting her blocks. The hard faced little girl at the beginning of this movie is a lot darker than the Jean Grey we've seen in the first two movies. It seems to me that Xavier didn't protect Jean from herself as much as he created two selves and kept the latter at bay.
 

---

Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
Wow, I had a great time at this movie...especially Juggernauts line


And I wasn't the only one. It made $44.5 million on it's opening night...


I'm taking my little sister and brother to see it this afternoon...I'm sure they'll enjoy it as well.
 

---

Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
 
One thing that bothered me about the fight at the end between the Brotherhood and the X-Men was how the majority of the Brotherhood mutants seemed to have no powers. All they would do is just run at the X-Men pointlessly and get stabbed by Wolverine or hit by Beast. Most of them didn't even try to fight. The X-Men really aren't that powerful, they shouldn't of been able to kill so many super-powered mutants. And some of the fighitng banter annoyed me with its corny-ness. Best and worst part of the movie was when Magneto defended Xavier to Pyro, It was nice to see Xavier be defended but Pyro was one of my facorite characters until he said that about Xavier. I thought he was just a rebellious kid, but after that I realized he's also stupid.
 

---

Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
 
Weird. People in my audience also whooped and cheered at the Snakes on a Plane teaser. As soon as the word "Snakes" appeared on screen, half the audience yelled "Snakes on a Plane!" before the rest of the title appeared. Am I missing some hype on this movie?

And from what I've gathered on this thread, Prof. X probably went into someone else's body? If so, any sequels that involve him would actually be a different actor? Or did the body he inhabit somehow turn into Professor X's body? And does this mean he will be able to walk, since he's in a different body?
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaalDornick:
One thing that bothered me about the fight at the end between the Brotherhood and the X-Men was how the majority of the Brotherhood mutants seemed to have no powers. All they would do is just run at the X-Men pointlessly and get stabbed by Wolverine or hit by Beast. Most of them didn't even try to fight. The X-Men really aren't that powerful, they shouldn't of been able to kill so many super-powered mutants. And some of the fighitng banter annoyed me with its corny-ness. Best and worst part of the movie was when Magneto defended Xavier to Pyro, It was nice to see Xavier be defended but Pyro was one of my facorite characters until he said that about Xavier. I thought he was just a rebellious kid, but after that I realized he's also stupid.

---

I think that most of the Brotherhood WEREN'T that powerful. Chick With Labret Piercing and Push-Up Bra said something along those lines at the community meeting.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
Yeah, she said only Magneto and Pyro were lvl 3 mutants...what ever that means

Also...the X-men train together to fight as a team...constantly....the Pawns (as Magneto calls them) have no training what so ever. Think regular grunts vs. special forces....
 

---

Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
 
This movie completely dumped the previous two's focus on character in favor of a retarded plot.

Rogue barely appeared in the movie, when she was one of the most important and interesting characters in 1-2, and her whole thing with Bobby resolved itself in the worst possible way, entirely contrary to the whole issue of
her learning to live with her powers.

They totally ruined the whole Phoenix thing. Magneto and Jean Grey were basically there to both take on the same role in the final fight: stand around while their minions are needlessly killed by the far-weaker X-men, then tear shit up at the end when they could've done it in the first place. Also, it was ridiculous that Prof X spent about 10 seconds explaining the nature of the Phoenix, and the topic was never broached again.

Every other line was a cliche a la "We stand together."

And on a related note, there were so many contrived scenes whose only point was for the X-men to make inspirational speeches about how they shouldn't give up, when there was no reason in the first place for them to give up. "Maybe we should close the school, now that Prof X is dead." Um... why in the hell would you do that?
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Destineer, what I THOUGHT they were going to say about closing the school was that Prof X was the main source of funding...because he was.

But then you would've thought that he would, like, leave the money to the school in his will.

Also, I really wanted Bobby to cheat on Rogue. Perhaps this makes me a bad person, but I really, really wanted Bobby to cheat on Rogue.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I'm with Destineer. I may have never been so tempted to walk out of a movie before.
 

---

Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
I thoroughly enjoyed it. Maybe it's because this movie started covering bases that I'm totally unfamiliar with in the comics, but despite the sickeningly saccharine moments and their trying to cover way, way too much ground, I enjoyed this movie more than either of the ones before it.

It's weird. In retrospect (and in reading this thread), I recognize that there were a LOT of problems with the movie, but...they just didn't bother me while I was in the theater.
 

---

Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
I'm with destineer.

It was a great stupid action flick. The first two X-Men were great action flicks WITH character, plot, and thought.
 

---

Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 

quote:

---

I also didn't get why Jean had to die...couldn't he have stabbed her with those mutant cure needles?

---

quote:

---

I can't imagine she'd muster the control to stop herself from killing Logan, but the Professor and Scott were fair game. Scott was the one who saved her in the original.

---

quote:

---

Yeah, she said only Magneto and Pyro were lvl 3 mutants...what ever that means

---

quote:

---

The explanation of the Phoenix is half-assed, and done with the expectation that the viewer will take on faith all the gibberish that Xavier spews.

---

I don't know the comics, and I'm not sure that I care to, but I thought Xavier's explanation was adequate. The cocoon of energy bit was over the top, but come on, I'm supposed to take it on faith that Bobby can turn into a walking ice cube? It's a superhero movie, within those realms, the explanation was fine.
 

---

Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
 
It was a fine explanation, it's just ridiculous that he gave it all in a 10-minute infodump that was never mentioned again. Especially after they went to all the trouble of having the prologue scene.

That's just bad storytelling.
 

---

Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Heh. Someone on YouTube did a new version of the X-3 teaser, only using images from "Pryde of the X-Men", the unsold pilot for an unproduced "X-Men" animated series back in 1989. It was eerie how well the soundtrack and images matched.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
X-3 posts record box office.

I'm guessing sequel.
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

---

It was like Michael Jackson!

---

No way! It was Prince! No question.

I agree with all the major complaints, but still enjoyed the movie.

I didn't see the extra scene after the credits, but I'm relieved Prof. X is alive. I also didn't see Psylocke, but noticed she was credited. Considering she was the hottest X-man in history, I think I'd have noticed her in this movie.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
JT, she was the Asian chick with the purple streaks in her hair who was with the Brotherhood.

-pH
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Okay, she's definitely not hot enough to be Psylocke. Then again, I'm not sure there's a woman alive who's hot enough.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Um, me. Duh.

-pH
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
You do have boobs that you can make out with, right?
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I guess I could make out with my own boobs, but...I don't think that's really the point.

-pH
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

---

But I'm still a girl! I'm not one of your guy friends that just happens to have boobs that you can make out with.

---

>_>

<_<
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Well, why didn't you just say you wanted to make out with my boobs?

-pH
 

---

Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
 
This thread has definitely not gotten off topic.

Can someone who read the comics briefly explain about the comics version of Phoenix please? I thought that Phoenix was something that inhabited Jean and not Jean herself. I think I heard that somewhere.

And out of curiousity, which mutant do you think you can relate to the most?
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Which mutant in the movies, or which mutant out of all the comics?

-pH
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
************ Spoilers for the comic book ************, as we later found it happened, not as revealed in the comic book.

The X-Men were in space during a solar flare of some kind. Jean was the only person who could shield herself from the radiation and pilot the shuttle. The rest of the X-Men hid in a lined chamber to stay safe.

Jean was going to die in the shuttle when a cosmic entity known as the Phoenix made a deal: Jean would be wrapped in a cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay (in NY) to heal while Phoenix took over Jean's life.

The entity everyone knew as Jean after that incident was the Phoenix impersonating Jean, a perfect copy of memories and body but still a distinct entity. The Phoenix did not retain its prior memories after the imprinting.

Gradually Phoenix/Jean became more powerful, with the template copy of Jean sometimes shutting down the Phoenix's powers when it got too scary.

At this point, Phoenix Jean is very powerful - able to demolish a car and reconstruct it, rearrange the molecules of her clothes to become her uniform, control unconscious people as puppets while still carrying on a normal conversation.

A villain known as Mastermind created an alternate life, presented as flashbacks from a prior existence, designed to release Jean's inhibitions. He does so, unleashing Dark Phoenix, a being dedicated to and overwhelmed by human sensation (something the Phoenix was not capable of before taking Jean as a template).

She beats the X-Men, rendering them unconscious, then flies under her own power to another galaxy where she devours the sun of an inhabited planet, killing billions.

She comes back to earth to defeat the X-Men once and for all, but they (with the template Jean's help) manage to set up psychic circuit breakers to dampen Phoenix's power. The empress of the galaxy where she killed the planet comes to sentence Phoenix Jean to death. The X-Men demand trial by combat, which they ultimately lose. But, when Cyclops is struck down, Phoenix is unleashed and the X-Men realize the universe is unsafe while Phoenix lives. They battle Phoenix, who ultimately takes her own life with the X-Men's help.

The part of Jean Gray which the Phoenix used as a template returned to Jean in her cocoon, who rejected it because of the horrible things she had done. That portion then flew to a clone of Jean that had been made years earlier by another villain. This clone was named Madeline Pryor, and a residue of the Phoenix force resided latent in her. Madeline meets and marries Scott Summers, who thinks Jean is really dead. Madeline and Scott have a baby, Nathan Christopher Charles Summer.

Meanwhile, Jean recovers in her cocoon. She is found by the Avengers, restored, and joins up with Cyclops, Angel, Beast, and Iceman to form X-Factor. Cyclops abandons Madeline and doesn't tell Jean he's married for a long while.

Ultimately, Madeline comes into her power and sets the X-Men against X-Factor to get revenge on Scott and Jean. Madeline dies, and the residual memories of Jean that were taken by the Phoenix finally return to Jean. She then remembers everything the Phoenix did as if she did it.

The Phoenix power itself eventually joined with Jean's daughter from an alternate timeline, Rachel. At some point she goes to the far future, where Apocalypse has taken over. The present-day Apocalypse infected Scott's sun with a techno-organic virus which was incurable. Rachel comes back to the past to take the child to the future where he can be saved.

She later takes Jean and Scott's psychic selves to the future to raise the child, who becomes Cable, a warrior who travels back in time to prevent the rise of Apocalypse and other villains.

Got that?
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Oh, and in recent storylines (2000 +), the Phoenix is discovered to be a cosmic protector who is bound to Jean. Jean gets powers again - it's not clear if she's inhabited by the Phoenix or not - and then is killed by Magneto.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Cyclops abandons Madeline and doesn't tell Jean he's married for a long while.

---

...and then Jean stabs him with a spork.

-pH
 

---

Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Morrison has said that Phoenix is the reality...Jean Grey is just the house where the goddess (his term) lives.

He also revealed that other beings around the universe have (or at least in potential alternate timelines have) become the Phoenix.

He stated in his view, the reason why Jean has "died" and come back so many times is that the Phoenix Force is like the mythical Phoenix...destroying itself only to be renewed.
 

---

Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
 
Dag, if I didn't respect your honesty, I'd say you pulled that directly out of your lower intestine. It sounds like stream of consciousness stuff.

That's pretty sad.
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Dag is the nerdiest person on this thread. I'm a little jealous, and I'm definitely taking my huges boxes of comics with me the next time I go to my parents' house.
 

---

Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
 
I don't mean to imply Dag is sad - I think it's cool he knows that. What's sad is that the storyline reads like something I'd have written at 12.
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Keep in mind that a lot of that came about because they (meaning Marvel or individual writers) kept bringing her back. First she emerged as Phoenix and had the dramatic, emotional, mythic ending. Then they brought her back again, saying oh, that wasn't really Jean. Then when they killed her off again they brought in Madeline and left it open for awhile if she was maybe Jean revived or something...

This and other "write a cool story, we'll make it make sense later" storylines is why I stopped reading X-Men around ish 175 or so and didn't pick any up again until the Ultimate series (whcih has been so-so) and Whedon's Astonishing line (which has been great, IMO, probably because it reads like he got fed up around the same time I did).
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Just came back from seeing the movie.

Ehh.

Cool effects, lotsa fights, most everyone got a good line or two. But ultimately, ehh.

The Dark Phoenix story, before they got really stupid with it (see above), was epic. She was a dark goddess, one with full control of her abilities and uncanny insight into her previous teammates. Here, she was a supremely powerful zombie-Jean who mostly stood around unless she was having a hissy fit.

I enjoyed the movie, but I doubt I'll watch it again terribly often. Here are the things that stood out for me, pro and con:

-- I liked seeing Charles and Eric visiting the Greys. nice scene, good setup for their later differences.
-- I hated the Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle, in the previous movies and especially in this one. In the comics this was a thread, yes, but it developed over years. In the movies Wolverine has spent how much time with Jean, exactly? A few days? As much as a week? How dare Wolverine compare his loss to Scott's?
-- Scott. What a completely wasted character, in every sense of the term. He's noble, overly responsible, a master tactician, skilled with various uses of his eyeblasts, deeply in love with Jean, utterly loyal to Prof. X, and terrified that he'll hurt somebody. Mostly we saw a whiny guy who blasted things once in a while, and I have to blame that on the writers and directors.
-- Scott's death. Well, he's been relegated to supporting character, why not kill him offscreen? He'd just be in the way of this great Jean/Logan love affair anyway and we're paying Jackman more, he needs more screen time.
-- I liked Mystique, in all the movies. Seriously cool character. I was suprised, though... when she's human and spilling her guts on camera, they somehow made her look frumpy. How?
-- Disliked the sloppy editing. Here's the convoy. Here's the president. Here's the conference. Here's the convoy. Here's Cyclops on a bike. Here's the convoy. Did we need all of that?
-- Liked the Danger Room sequence. About time!
-- Why is Colossus super-strong when he's not metal?
-- Liked Kitty. Would have liked to see more Kitty/Peter interaction, or, you know, any.
-- Really liked Beast. Kelsey Grammer was perfect, both as a dignified diplomat and as a brawler.
-- Didn't see the point of Angel, alias Plot Device Boy.
-- Liked Juggernaut, and Kitty's battle with him.
-- Like the abandonment of Mystique. "She was so beautiful..."
-- Really liked Magneto's defense of Xavier.
-- In fact, liked Magneto most of the time, apart from some really stupid moves (see below).
-- Didn't like the never-before-hinted-at split personality thing for Jean. Very tacked-on feeling.
-- The Rogue-Bobby-Kitty thing? Ehh. Rogue was cooler in the last movie.
-- The big battle? Well... If Magneto can pick up the Golden Gate Bridge, why didn't he just pick up the medical facility and shake it a few times?
Why did he just stand there during the battle, when he could easily have wiped out the opposing army by himself? Or, for that matter, floated around back while the army was engaged in front? Heck, why not just drop the damn bridge on top of the place?
-- Hated the really sloppy editing. Magneto drops a bridge on the island in daylight. Then, in pitch blackness, he steps forward. Did he just stand there looking all majestic and stuff while he waited for the proper dramatic setting?
-- Liked the fastball special(s). Yay!
-- Hated the final Jean/Logan scene, mostly for the reasons above (supposed to be killed by the love of her life, not some bozo she's known for less than the life of a gallon of milk) but also because removing all the meat from Logan's bones wouldn't be that tough compared to what she was doing around him. His healing ability seems awful selective as to how fast it wants to work sometimes.
-- Wow, Storm sure is a cold bitch. Talking of killing Jean without appearing the last bit torn up about it, and hitting the other girl with lightning over and over and over...
-- "I'm the only one who can stop her!" Really? How about that bald kid that just went by? You know, the one who neutralizes mutant ability? Even if he wasn't powerful enough to stop her completely, he sure as heck could have dampened her somewhat.
-- Xavier's death, and subsequent post-credits revival. Guess he solved that pesky ethical problem, huh.
-- Magneto's powers returning. Bad enough that comics really leave a startling change actually changed. How can I feel the impact of an event when I know it'll be reversed later? Although I'd be really interested in seeing what happens if Mystique regains her powers. Would she rejoin Eric, no hard feelings? Or would he have a much more dangerous enemy?

Overall I felt the same way I feel about Smallville: cute, fun to watch, easy to heckle, but I still feel let down that so many great possibilities were ignored for an easy and shallow story. Little shoutouts to the fans are offered instead of the powerful, multi-layered love story it was drawn from. It was an entertaining summer movie, and nothing more.

[ May 29, 2006, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
 

---

Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
The editing bugged me too. Why do we need FOUR sweeping shots of forest? After we get into it, we really don't need the same shot to say 'we're back here now!' Why can't we just start a scene where the scene is?

And not even trying to use the kid to drain Pheonix's powers? That's a plot hole you could drive a truck through.

Ni!
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

If Magneto can pick up the Golden Gate Bridge, why didn't he just pick up the medical facility and shake it a few times?
Why did he just stand there during the battle, when he could easily have wiped out the opposing army by himself? Or, for that matter, floated around back while the army was engaged in front? Heck, why not just drop the damn bridge on top of the place?

...

"I'm the only one who can stop her!" Really? How about that bald kid that just went by? You know, the one who neutralizes mutant ability? Even if he wasn't powerful enough to stop her completely, he sure as heck could have dampened her somewhat.

---

quote:

---

Would she rejoin Eric, no hard feelings? Or would he have a much more dangerous enemy?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
Dag is the nerdiest person on this thread. I'm a little jealous, and I'm definitely taking my huges boxes of comics with me the next time I go to my parents' house.

---

The sad thing is that each story was usually very good once you could push aside "they're bringing her back again."

Seen all together, it's a joke.
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Which means it's time for the Armchair Director to step in!

Let the movie open as it did.
When Wolverine stops Scott and pushes on how they have to get past Jean's death, let Scott blast him a few times. Let us see that a) Scott is not handling things very well, and b) he's a powerful mutant who can take out Wolverine (as he has in the past). Afterwards, when someone makes him stop, he can say the "not everyone heals" line.
They hear of the cure, Storm does her "it's not a disease" bit, but Rogue blows up at her instead of being more or less dazed the whole movie. "At least you can touch someone, feel them touch you! Of course you like it, you're better than human. Some of us are less."
Scott hears Jean, goes to see the lake, she arises. Not as Dark Phoenix, but as SuperJean, more powerful than before.
He brings her back to the mansion, where she explains how she must have protected herself. Just before the flood hit she felt so powerful, she doesn't know why. Xavier explains to her about the shunts he placed in her mind. She's not sure how to feel about that, and neither is Scott.
Angel escapes from his father, flies to the mansion.
Magneto collects powerful mutants, let that subplot go as it was.
With Angel's information on what's goiung on, the X-Men are proactive, helping to subdue riots at the clinic and trying to track down Magneto's army. Jean is immensely powerful, and it's getting to her a bit. We see some of the wild side. Scott is deliriously happy; he has her back, we get lots of romance. Logan is a bit disgruntled and continues to flirt with her, and is surprised when she flirts back.
The Mystique rescue, as seen. Except Jean and Logan arrive to prevent it. In the battle Jean loses control and we see the Phoenix effect for the first time. Magneto and minions get away, barely. Jean jumps Logan who goes along with it until she calls herself Phoenix and he pulls away. She is confused and asks for Scott when the surviving guard shoots her with the cure. She stops it mentally and goes totally Dark Phoenix on the guard, killing him. "HOw dare you!" and so forth. She flies off.
Wolverine gets back to the mansion and fills them in.
The X-Men fly off to stop Magneto's army. Much like before except Xavier and Scott are there. Scott is yelling tactics, trying not to think about where Jean is, and Xavier is fighting Magneto with Magneto's own minions. After a grueling battle they win, except Jean shows up in full Dark Phoenix garb and takes them all out with ease. Including Xavier, whom she blasts big time (kills, if we really must). She's ready to blow the place up but Wolverine and Scott work together; Wolverine distracts her while Scott gets closer, and Scott and Jean have a moment where we can see Jean fighting to regain control. She tells Scott what he has to do while she can keep her defenses down and, screaming, he blasts her.
Epilogue - Scott has to leave for awhile. Storm takes over as leader. Keeping the school open is made easier because Angel is rich and offers to underwrite it. And life goes on.

All in all, dump some extraneous scenes and add in the fifteen minutes to make it a 2 hour movie, and this could have happened. Or something better, I'm not a screenwriter. But at the end I would have cried for Scott, I would have cared for Jean as a person, I would have felt Rogue's anguish, I would have felt Wolverine's pain at being an outsider to a relationship once again. The characters would have had some depth.

My two cents.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

When Wolverine stops Scott and pushes on how they have to get past Jean's death, let Scott blast him a few times. Let us see that a) Scott is not handling things very well, and b) he's a powerful mutant who can take out Wolverine (as he has in the past).

---

quote:

---

Scott is yelling tactics, trying not to think about where Jean is, and Xavier is fighting Magneto with Magneto's own minions.

---

quote:

---

She tells Scott what he has to do while she can keep her defenses down and, screaming, he blasts her.

---

quote:

---

Does he even know any formal martial arts or fighting methods he could teach someone without claws?

---

quote:

---

Before 1993 (Somewhere around there) Jean Grey had been killed three times, and Scott had been killed twice... And I think that was excluding deaths in alternate universes and timestreams.

---

quote:

---

Couldn't a person wear armor made from the same stuff as the lenses of Scott's glasses and be completely immune to his energy-based attacks?

---

Yes.
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Point of order. Frank Miller made Wolverine a samurai.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Good point. Although, in my defense, Frank Miller makes everyone a samurai. Or a prostitute. Except for the samurai prostitutes

The only thing I'm finding interesting right now about his current take on Batman, in fact, is how it -- perhaps deliberately, perhaps not -- throws into sharp relief how incredibly distorted, violent, and inhuman his caricatured stereotypes usually are.
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I'm having the same reaction these days to Brian Michael Bendis that I did to Frank Miller back in the day: amazement at the fresh look he brings to the table, wonder at how he reinvents heroes while still bringing their essence into sharp relief, and ultimately annoyance because he keeps doing the same thing, over and over, and it ain't fresh anymore.
 

---

Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
::hugs geeks::

Ni!
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
You know, though, I still find Powers and Ultimate Spider-Man fresh and interesting, and Alias and Pulse were solid until Cage got shoehorned into the Avengers. And until they manage to somehow retcon it all away and transform it into the status quo, what he did to Daredevil will remain one of my favorite comic arcs ever.

As long as Powers still manages to rock my world on a regular basis, though, and Spider-Man and Kitty Pryde are somehow written as a believable couple, I'll forgive Bendis almost anything. Provided they never let him anywhere near Iron Man and Wolverine, ever again. Those are two characters who simply don't hold up to comic deconstruction.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Actually, while I'm on the topic of Frank Miller: just what is he doing, do you think? Is he deliberately sabotaging/reinventing the character, or has he always envisioned Batman as a semi-psychotic nutcase who'd force a young, traumatized child to eat rats in order to teach that child to be self-reliant? Yeah, Alfred has always been the voice of reason, and it's nice to see that he's still being written that way -- but when the voice of reason is preventing Batman from mentally abusing an orphan, is that really where the line is now drawn?

It's as if Ultimate Spider-Man turned Aunt May into Norma Bates.
 

---

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
What's really sad is Bobby Drake wasn't done half as well as the guy from The Incredibles.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
Point of order. Frank Miller made Wolverine a samurai.

---

quote:

---

The first "death" lasted one issue - the shuttle going down, the X-Men coming up, Jean staying down.

On the first page of the next issue, she rises up from the water as Phoenix.

The second death was during the trial by combat.

What was the third prior to 1993?

---

quote:

---

Why is Colossus super-strong when he's not metal?

---

While I haven't read much of the comics (this is my failing, please forgive me) I DID collect many hundreds - or thousands - of the trading cards. It always seemed to me that Colossus, while super strong in metallic mode (a strength level of 5, I believe on the 1-7 scale) was still above average strength in normal mode (say a three). Surely strong enough to carry a largish TV one-armed. As opposed to, say, Galactus, or The Watcher, who was a seven in damn near everything.
[/pseudo-geekiness]
 

---

Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
<Geek mode>

Didn't half the universe die in the crossover event...the Infinity Gauntlet?...that makes %50 percent odds Jean died


</Geek mode>
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Chris, would you write the next X-Men movie? PLEASE?????????

Whenever my hubby and I saw X-Men previews on TV, and we saw The Juggernaut, either or both of us would say "I'm the Juggernaut, BITCH!" so when that part of the movie rolled around and he actually said it we missed the next 5 minutes of the movie because we... alone, out of the entire packed theatre... were laughing hysterically.

That androygenous woman was definately Prince. In fact, that's what we called her after the movie "What was the deal with Prince and her shockwave? That wasn't developed well."

I thought it was a plot hole that Magneto ripped up the GG bridge and moved it to alcatraz. He could have taken one of the mothball fleet or even a big metal plate to get everyone over there. Then I decided it was good for intimitdation factor.

I was bummed there wasn't more Rogue. She was my fav in the first movie. (her and Wolverine)

We left before the end of the credits and missed Xavier coming back to life =(

Pix
 

---

Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Who was the woman attending to Mr. Brainstem in the post credits clip? She and Xavier were on a first name basis, but I wasn't sure who she was.
 

---

Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Moira MacTaggart.

Ahem, I mean Moira MacTaggart.

Sidenote: Did anyone else catch R. Lee Ermey's voice when the troops were outfitting themselves before the final battle?
 

---

Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Well, darnit, we didn't stay until the end of the credits. Have to go see it again, I guess.

I took my son last night to see it and we both loved it. I know just enough XMen comic history to get some of the injokes, so I really enjoyed that, but haven't read any of them in so long that any of the liberties they took in character development didn't bother me. I really liked Magneto's comment to Pyro defending Prof X. I figured the cure couldnt' be permanent, but it was okay that it was predictable. I didn't particularly like the golden gate bridge scene, figuring it was a ridiculously ostentatious way to get to Alcatraz. It did, however, make me laugh out loud, so I guess you could classify it as entertaining.

Overall, loved it and would like to see it again.
 

---

Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
 
Just watched this movie last night.

Although the action was interesting, and visually stunning, I was not amused. There is a reason why we create art. Stories usually have a moral. There's a reson why we tell stories. There is something more to a story than paying $10 for a movie ticket.

I found no such thing here. It was like eating cotton candy, all air. Smoke and mirrors.

What is the purpose of a film like this? To lead kids to believe that the best response to violence is more violence? More militaristic meat-grinding for the brain?

Exactly my problem with Star Wars.

At least the DaVinci code asked some interesting questions. The DaVinci code was a far 'inferior' film in suspence and action, but it was more nurishing intellectually, maybe even spiritually.

Hollywood is still trying to tell us that everything is okay, and the buiness can be conducted as usual with their violent pornography (i consider death as entertainment a form of death-porn).

BTW. I rooted for Magnetto the whole film.
 

---

Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
 
Wouldn't rooting for Magneto sort of contradict what you just said you were against? I mean "the best response to violence is more violence" is more or less what Magneto was for, IMO. It seemed by the way you worded that sentence that you are against that view. So why exactly did you root for Magneto? Did you just not care about his views and just liked him as a character?
 

---

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Although this is supposed to be "The Last Stand", there will obviously be more. IMDB already reports that there will be one called Magneto in 2007, which looks to be a flashback type to younger year; and Wolverine in 2007, written by none other than David Benioff, who is also supposed to be doing Ender's Game in 2008
 

---

Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
 

quote:

---

Plot Outline: A young Magneto seeks revenge on the Nazis who killed his family while befriending a young Charles Xavier.

---

Ah ha! I was correct!
 

---

Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Ok, I just thought of something. If Jean's so freaking strong and Magneto knows she's that strong then why didn't Magneto use her to power his mutant making machine in the first movie.

For that matter, Magneto thinks it's reprehensible that the humans want to turn all of the mutants human, but alright for him to turn all of the humans mutant? I just realized that this movie's plot is practically the polar opposite of the first movie's plot.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Magneto feels it is him or them, and they were moving against mutants first.

And it wasn't just power that moved the machine in the first one, it was HIS power of mastery of metals....and Rogue was the only mutant capable of taking his powers.

Also, Jean wasn't powerful anymore, due to Xavier's work with Jean to partition her powers.
 

---

Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I found the turn-humans-mutant thing to be very odd in the other movie. While I think this movie eliminated the delicate complexities of the character, I more easily imagine Magneto viewing mutation as a rare and superior club than a fix to the infortunate human state, and so this movie was more on par than the other.

I think the cliched dialogue and character "development" bothered me most about this movie. It was alot of fun and it had moments where I was more than pleasantly surprised, but I still feel like the X-Men universe isn't being treated with respect. The one-liners are great when said by the right character (I particularly enjoy them from Wolverine), they seemed to be coming left and right which made it impossible for me to enjoy them. There just weren't distinctive voices for the characters. Magneto wasn't treated like a person so much as a cardboard cutout for the "humans are bad" story objective. There's nothing interesting about Storm, they might as well cut Rogue out for all the lines she had, and everyone else was one plot device after another.

I was excited to see Angel (especially since I remember little Ben Foster when I was growing up) but he had no purpose. I had to explain to my poor dad who Kitty Pryde was since neither of us remember anyone actually saying "Shadowcat." Juggernaut is very cool but he seemed included only as a way to highlight how Kitty and her powers could earn her a spot on their little X-Men team. The helmet "explanation" did not do it for me.

I couldn't be more annoyed with the Bridge scene if I tried and all for reasons that others have noticed as well.

Oh, and I hate the Logan/Jean/Scott love triangle. Since when is Wolverine a 12 year old girl??

And with main characters being killed and cured left and right...I had some Serenity flashbacks. I seriously was not expecting Scott and Xavier to bite it. Or Mystique to be cured. Thank goodness atleast that is being undone or I wouldn't know what to do with myself.

To bring back Scott and Jean in another movie in any way, shape or form, would be a cheap out. And as much as I do not miss the actors or their characters, I can't imagine anyone making future films without them.

All the papers and my family have agreed on one thing...this movie needed Nightcrawler and his voice and perspective.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I missed him for sure, although I enjoyed the film.
 

---

Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
 
Whoa.

Why is it so difficult for directors to understand that Magneto isn't a villain?
 

---

Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
 
I just still in shock over the fact that there were three X men movies and no Gambit. He was always my favorite X man. Period.
 

---

Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
Magneto is a villain. He's just much more complex than the way he was portrayed. It's why I think so many people liked his defense of Xavier. It was a brief look into that comlexity.

He's not a villain in the "I'm gonna destroy the world" kind of way, but who really is?
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lalo:
Whoa.

Why is it so difficult for directors to understand that Magneto isn't a villain?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaalDornick:
Wouldn't rooting for Magneto sort of contradict what you just said you were against? I mean "the best response to violence is more violence" is more or less what Magneto was for, IMO. It seemed by the way you worded that sentence that you are against that view. So why exactly did you root for Magneto? Did you just not care about his views and just liked him as a character?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lalo:
Whoa.

Why is it so difficult for directors to understand that Magneto isn't a villain?

---

Depends on when in the continuity you look. Prior to God Loves, Man Kills, he was almost always portrayed as a villain.

After that, he became a "good" guy for a long time. But, ultimately, he reverted to his villainous ways. He's destroyed cities - a deserted Russian city and a populated NYC - enslaved humans, and caused thousands of deaths in an instant a global magnetic pulse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shanna:
Bingo Lalo! I couldn't agree more.

Even villians need motivation, and I just didn't feel it in this one like I did in the others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 0range7Penguin:
I just still in shock over the fact that there were three X men movies and no Gambit. He was always my favorite X man. Period.

---

They wanted Josh Holloway (Sawyer from Lost) to play Gambit in this one. He didn't want to, because it would have been so similar to his character on Lost. But they didn't recast the part, because they were still hoping till the last that he'd agree to do a cameo. Which he didn't.

I want to see just Charles, Jean, Scott, Hank, Warren and Bobby, and I want the last four of them in yellow spandex. That's the X-Men I remember. Everything post Dazzler is tripe.

PS: Am I the only one who noticed that this last movie was one long metaphor for the whole "curing gays" movement? "There's nothing wrong with you!" Etc. I mean, they did it before, when Bobby's mother asked him, "Have you tried not being a mutant?" But this whole movie was like a dramatization of the "magic pill" question.
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
SL, I noticed that too - the "tried not being a mutant" line in the last movie made me laugh out loud, actually.
 

---

Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
 
I was going to make a thread about this subject but I might as well as post it here as it is relevant to the movie in question...

Killing off major characters: a big cliche?


It seems to me that death of a major character is used by writers in place of actual storytelling.

Need something big and awfully dramatic to happen?

Kill off a character!

Need something shocking to happen?

Kill off a character!

I saw "X-men 3" over the weekend and (spoiler, folks) every single death in that movie struck me as pointless. Maybe "shocking" but hardly tragic.

Jean dying--what a waste. Just as she was coming into her true formidable self and blossoming into this seemingly unstoppable force--she gets it!

I'm more saddened by the wasted opportunities than by any tragedy inherent in her demise.

As for the two other characters, theirs is a case of "there's nothing more they can show us so we might as well kill them off..."

In fact the one character I was sure was going to die--didn't! I'm talking about Rogue's romantic rival. She seemed so fragile amidst all the fighting that I thought: If the X-men are to lose anybody because of this battle it should be her. But no. She lived.

On a side note, I can't believe movie cost 200 million dollars. Where did all the money go????
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Special effects.
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Lisa: All three movies were "gay" movies like that. Yes, we don't have super powers, but our social issues are the same.

Imagine, in the first movie, if Magneto's super weapon was to turn all the world leaders gay.

*sigh*

Sometimes it's hard not to pull for Magneto...
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
That would be awful - I don't care to feel sexually attracted to men or women, but to not feel sexually attracted to the person I love would be horrible.
 

---

Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
If they'd thrown in a mutant marriage amendment, it would have been priceless.

"Marriage should be between a human and a human! Mutant marriage is an abomination in the eyes of God!"

-pH
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Anna: Unless you know and accept from an early age, I think most gay people go through a "death of dreams" as I call it when we finally accept who we are. "No, I'll never have the white wedding." "No, this person I'm with, love them platonically as I might, is not the love of my life." "No, I'll never have kids that are half me, half the person I love."

And being "cured" would cause the same thing in reverse. The death of all your new dreams.
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Which is why I never thought gay people should be cured. Neither straight people. Answer to intolerance with more intolerance is probably not a good idea, however tempting it may be.
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Anna: That's why Magneto, understandable as he is, is still the villan.
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Yes. Isn't it better when you can understand the villain's motivation? I think it makes the movie more interesting.
 

---

Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
That's why Magneto is a great villain =)
 

---

Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Snape too, for the same reasons.
 

---

Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anna:
That would be awful - I don't care to feel sexually attracted to men or women, but to not feel sexually attracted to the person I love would be horrible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TrapperKeeper:
star, I think you're just seeing things in the movie and relating them to your personal experience. The writers did not set out to metaphorically compare the mutants to gays.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bella Bee:


And is it only me who doesn’t care that Prof. X is coming back if Patrick Stewart isn’t? Okay, I do care, but I care less.

I’m a little disappointed. But most of the rest of it was alright. I just hope this doesn't bode badly for 'Pirates of the Caribbean' because if both the blockbusters I've been looking forward to end up lame, I really will cry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
I think the otherness is a deliberate metaphor for being gay. I don't think that's the only metaphor, though. It also applies to anything that separates you from the majority - personality, tastes, interests, abilities - and is one of the reasons the X-Men has lasted this long. Most of us can understand what it's like to be outcast, if not actively legislated against.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shanna:
Bingo Lalo! I couldn't agree more.

Even villians need motivation, and I just didn't feel it in this one like I did in the others.

---

Um, at the end of the last movie, he tried to kill every single human being on the planet. I think his motivation was well-established here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
I do think the otherness of the mutants in X-Men is deliberately a metaphor for being gay.

I do not, however, think that the otherness of Harry Potter and the non-Muggles in a Muggle world is a metaphor for being gay, and I have seen that argument made.

---

I agree with you. I don't see that at all.
 

---

Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Jews wouldn't be willing to kill every non-Jew in the world, the way Lensherr was willing to kill every non-mutant. He may have started out the way you suggest, but he's gone far beyond that.
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Which is why he's a comic book villain.
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
In Magneto's own words, mutants are the cure, not the disease, Eddie. Which is a mirror image of the evil portions of humanity's thinking in the film as well. He thought that before humanity (well, only a small segment acting on its own) attempted to obliterate all mutants, and he thought it afterwards.

In fact he almost certainly thought it all the way back to his childhood in the Holocaust, when the horrors of Nazi brutality more or less ruined him as a good person.

Just because he is not a mustache-twirling black tophat wearing caricature does not mean he isn't a villain. Just because, as Gary Oldman says, everyone thinks they're righteous does not mean everyone possesses righteousness to a substantial degree.

Magneto was a racist, pure and simple. His race was superior, and the other race-humanity-was inferior, and individual humans were just as culpable for the crimes of the worst humans as were those human criminals or evil bastards themselves.

You can be provoked and still be evil. He was not noble, he was arrogant, prideful, uncompromising. It was his vision, or death. Or at best, submission and slavery. Just because he took pride in that does not make him noble, or a saint of any stripe.
 

---

Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by starLisa:
Jews wouldn't be willing to kill every non-Jew in the world, the way Lensherr was willing to kill every non-mutant. He may have started out the way you suggest, but he's gone far beyond that.

---

quote:

---

Except he's not killing every non-Jew -- he's killing every Nazi, to maintain the analogy. Humans hate and murder mutants, just as Nazis did Jews.

---

quote:

---

He's a hero, or probably better called an antihero. No man who'd sacrifice everything in his ongoing battle to save an entire race from persecution, suffering neverending betrayals, losses, and pain, could be called anything else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rakeesh:
In Magneto's own words, mutants are the cure, not the disease, Eddie. Which is a mirror image of the evil portions of humanity's thinking in the film as well. He thought that before humanity (well, only a small segment acting on its own) attempted to obliterate all mutants, and he thought it afterwards.

In fact he almost certainly thought it all the way back to his childhood in the Holocaust, when the horrors of Nazi brutality more or less ruined him as a good person.

Just because he is not a mustache-twirling black tophat wearing caricature does not mean he isn't a villain. Just because, as Gary Oldman says, everyone thinks they're righteous does not mean everyone possesses righteousness to a substantial degree.

Magneto was a racist, pure and simple. His race was superior, and the other race-humanity-was inferior, and individual humans were just as culpable for the crimes of the worst humans as were those human criminals or evil bastards themselves.

You can be provoked and still be evil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Except he's not killing every non-Jew -- he's killing every Nazi, to maintain the analogy. Humans hate and murder mutants, just as Nazis did Jews.

---

Not all humans do.

quote:

---

He's a hero, or probably better called an antihero. No man who'd sacrifice everything in his ongoing battle to save an entire race from persecution, suffering neverending betrayals, losses, and pain, could be called anything else.

---

Any man who tries to kill 6 billion people because some of those people persecute his people is not a hero.

---

quote:

---

Except he's not killing every non-Jew -- he's killing every Nazi, to maintain the analogy. Humans hate and murder mutants, just as Nazis did Jews.

---

quote:

---

Magneto believes humankind is irredeemable, and doomed to forever persecute the weak or helpless they have in their power.

---

quote:

---

Magneto doesn't see his fight so much as a war as a struggle for survival, forever hounded and attacked as he tries to rescue the less powerful of his people from the same extermination Jews suffered during the Holocaust -- the same extermination he sees repeating itself with mutantkind.

---

quote:

---

No man who'd sacrifice everything in his ongoing battle to save an entire race from persecution, suffering neverending betrayals, losses, and pain, could be called anything else.

---

Who betrays Magneto that he doesn't betray first? Who hurts Magneto without being first hurt by them? The suffering he endures, he largely brings on himself. Especially concerning his kids and his 'friend' Xavier.

He did his stint on Asteroid M for awhile, but it didn't stick, remember? Soon enough he was back to efforts to conquer and annihilate. He eventually left for Genosha, where *gasp* he was set up as a god-king sort of person.

A hero is someone who endures great personal suffering and/or danger in an effort to achieve a worthy, honorable goal. Without doing evil along the way, in my opinion. Magneto's suffering is largely self-wrough, the danger he endures is usually minimal when fighting his chosen enemy, and he does gads and gads of evil along the way.

Oh, and if you ever get mutation, ask for incredibly sharp wits. For better insults. Because that one about bragging was definitely mere homo sapiens quality, bordering on neanderthal, flatscan:p
 

---

Posted by Jet (Member # 9475) on :
 
I saw the movie on momorial day and for a movie that people saw to see things get blown up and killing, it was good. But as for plot it was very poorly written.

I didn't read all of the articles descussed already so if i repeat anything i apologize. i heard someone say that Juggernaut was Prof. X's then they would be right acourding to one of the comic book series. as for the others i don't know.

I didn't get the joke about "I'm the Juggernaut bitch" but i suppose it was a big deal. the joke that got the biggest response in the theater i was in was when mystique spilt here guts about magnetos hideout.

And something i thought was funny was when Prof. X. said something about Jean surviving under the river, a girl in the back said "What" in that blonde voice. it just hit me funny.

As for a fourth movie. the only way i can see that they could is if Magneto regained his powers totaly and started to lead the X-men and finish Prof. X's. mission. and the bad guy would have to be Apocalypse (pardon the spelling i'm not so good at english). However if they were going to have a fourth with Apocalypse then Angel would have gotton the cure. then (as in the comics) Apocalypse would restore him to Arcangel. but they ruined that by having him keep his powers.

One of my favorite seens in the movie is when Kitty tricket Juggernaut into running into the wall. on the issue of Juggernaut, i heard he wasn't even a mutant that he found a crystal of some sort that gave him powers. also they did him no justice in the movies. in the comics he would go toe-to-toe with the hulk and tie or win every time.
 

---

Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
All right, one more bit of venting.

Since when does Professor X get all huffy and defensive? "I don't have to justify myself to you"?

And isn't the appropriate response to "What have you done" "I touched her face, you twit. Which was apparently enough to let out the alternate personality that *you* created."
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by starLisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TrapperKeeper:
star, I think you're just seeing things in the movie and relating them to your personal experience. The writers did not set out to metaphorically compare the mutants to gays.

---

Oh, please. They consciously put in things that carried that metaphor. "Have you tried not being a mutant" is clearly a reference to all the parents who've asked the same thing of their gay children.

I'm not reading anything into it. The fact that you don't see it only indicates that it's not something you've ever had to deal with. Live and learn.

---

You seem to think that YOUR view is the only right one, but a lot of the time a lot of people see things different.


Then you get all pissy.


You can see it however you like, but if your world view was the only correct one the world would be a far poorer place.


And I am not talking just about a stupid X-Men move, sL. Every person who disagrees with you is met with scorn and disdain, and I for one am getting a little sick of reading it.


God forbid ANYONE even IMPLY that your own experiences MIGHT color your perceptions.

I am not saying I didn't see some of the same issues, but I don't consider myself an actual mind reader so I don't know for sure what they meant.

Lots of other situations fit that bill as well. The X-Men comics have been filled with metaphors of violence and bigotry for years, far longer than the recent huff over gay marriage.


One way or another, you sure seem full of anger and self-righteousness, and that makes pleasant conversation hard to come by for all of us.

[ June 03, 2006, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Since when does Professor X get all huffy and defensive? "I don't have to justify myself to you"?

---

quote:

---

Wait a minute, Juggernaut actually won against the Hulk in a one-on-one fight? If it happened, that's total damn BS.

---

He did beat Hulk in a 1 v 1 fight once when it was him versus the merged Hulk during Peter David's run. The merged Hulk's powers were somewhat different than the stupid Hulk most people are familiar with. He starts out even stronger than the regular Hulk, but is less quick to anger. He also was a straight up "good guy", and so was much more likely to hold back.

And it wasn't exactly a straight up fight, as the Juggernaut wore normal street clothes so that Hulk wouldn't recognize him, which made Banner hold back a ton. He wasn't sure how hard he could hit without killing the guy, and so was fighting defensively. Banner never got mad, because he was so confused as to how his opponent didn't seem phased by his punches. Without Hulk getting even a little bit mad, Juggernaut was able to beat him pretty easily.

It was a cheap trick, but it still counts. Funny thing Juggs outsmarting an opponent .

Later in David's run, after Hulk was enhanced by Apocalypse into "War", Hulk completely mopped the floor with Juggs, and was about to kill him when Absorbing man saved his life by distracting Hulk. I'm not sure if that quite counts, since Hulk was enhanced.

Hulk and Juggs has always been a close match. Hulk is far stronger (its not even close), but Juggernaut is far more resilient (its not even close). Hulk usually gets the best hits in, but because Juggs is truly invulnerable, it doesn't do any serious damage, no matter how hard he is hit. It pretty much always comes down to a draw, since niether can do much more than temporarily daze the other.

As the fight between them goes on, and Hulk gets madder and madder, it becomes far more lop-sided. But even if Hulk beats Juggs into the pavement, Juggs just gets back up, so its a draw. The one time Juggs won (that I know of) it was because he tricked Hulk into not getting mad before he was incapacitated.
 

---

Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I should have specified 'straight-up fight', because lots of people have beaten the Hulk, even puny humans, with trickery or science or somethiing. Thanks for the info:) My nerdly powers are growing.

Is Juggernaut more resilient, though? I haven't read as much Hulk as you have (I can tell just by your descriptions of the fights), but it seems to me that although the Hulk does get wounded while in Hulk form, it simply serves to make him even angrier and thus tougher and moore powerful, and harder to further injure. Unless he fought someone whose power increased at a rate greater than Hulk's anger let HIS power increase, can he truly be considered vulnerable?

Again, exceptions for thinks like adamantium needles, tricky science, magic, etc. You know, since Juggernaut is magic based I'm surprised Dr. Strange hasn't simply taken care of him a long time ago. Juggernaut regularly tangles with people who're buddy-buddy with the good Dr, after all.
 

---

Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

To be fair, though, those two developments are pretty recent in X-Men 'history' Dagonee. If you're thinking about the Ultimate X-Men's version of Xavier's 'handling' of Magneto after he was thought to be dead, and Astonishing X-Men's handling of him being exposed as an artificial-life mutant enslaver.
I definitely like the newer approach to Xavier. He is less a white knight on a white stallion (wheelchair).

---

quote:

---

Is Juggernaut more resilient, though? I haven't read as much Hulk as you have (I can tell just by your descriptions of the fights), but it seems to me that although the Hulk does get wounded while in Hulk form, it simply serves to make him even angrier and thus tougher and moore powerful, and harder to further injure. Unless he fought someone whose power increased at a rate greater than Hulk's anger let HIS power increase, can he truly be considered vulnerable?

---

I would say that yes, Juggs is the more invulnerable (as much as someone could be more invulnerable ).

Hulk is nearly invulnerable, but not quite. Hulk can be cut. His bones can be broken. He needs to breathe oxygen (he can drown or asphyxiate). Lazers can penetrate his skin.

None of these are true of Juggs. He can be knocked out, but that's about it. Though I think his power has decreased recently. In the New Excaliber, it was mentioned that he can drown now. Not sure how that came to be.

But like I said, Hulk is far stronger. They start out about the same, but Hulk's strength is completely limitless. There's no feat of strength he can't accomplish if he gets mad enough. Even something as impossible as, say, ripping Juggernaut's arms off. Hulk's irresistable force has overcome many immovable objects in the 30+ years he's been around.

If I was to bet on one of the two for a straight up fight to the death, it would be on Hulk all the way.
 

---

Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Maybe this was asked and answered before...but just after Magneto ripped the GG Bridge off its moorings and landed it on Alcatraz (I love how he levitates himself above the roadway so he doesn't get hurt when it crashes, but everyone else--mutant warriors included--seems to survive it anyhow, even the cars not really budging from their pre-crash positions)...but I digress.

Where did the sun go? How did we do from a beautiful sunrise (or was it a sunset), to a sunny afternoon, to...late at night (that last transition taking all of 21 seconds or so)?

And why didn't Wolverine just take a "Cure" needle and jab Jean/Phoenix with it. Boy is HE going to feel stupid in a few days for missing that opportunity!
 

---

Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 

quote:

---

The dude with boobs-I mean, androgynous chick was Arclight!

---

quote:

---

He needs to breathe oxygen (he can drown or asphyxiate).

---

quote:

---

Where did the sun go? How did we do from a beautiful sunrise (or was it a sunset), to a sunny afternoon, to...late at night (that last transition taking all of 21 seconds or so)?

---

quote:

---

This was actually one of my gripes when his "friends" recently blasted him off the planet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Where did the sun go? How did we do from a beautiful sunrise (or was it a sunset), to a sunny afternoon, to...late at night (that last transition taking all of 21 seconds or so)?

---

One of the mutants has the power to invoke appropriate dramatic lighting for any event.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Where did the sun go? How did we do from a beautiful sunrise (or was it a sunset), to a sunny afternoon, to...late at night (that last transition taking all of 21 seconds or so)?

---

One of the mutants has the power to invoke appropriate dramatic lighting for any event.

---

quote:

---

Whats stopping him from using his 100 copies or possibly more to attack the military team sent to the brotherhoods camp?

---

quote:

---

I had a question though about characters. Who is the guy that can make multiple copies of himself? And exactly how many can he make? Was it really possible for him to make almost 100 of himself and have them all doing seperate things at once?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

---

Since when does Professor X get all huffy and defensive? "I don't have to justify myself to you"?

---

A lot, actually. For example, when he sucked Magneto's mind out. When he kept the sentient being enslaved within the danger room. He's constantly making choices like that and expecting people to just deal with them.

I get the impression that people complaining about how a character is represented simply have a fixed point in the continuity on which their impressions are based.

---

quote:

---

Where in the movies did either of these events occur?

And where in the movies has he ever felt a need to defend his actions before?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrSquicky:

You've got two characters, one throws fire, the other throws ice. There's like three things you get for free right off the bat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dagonee:

On the Magneto as a hero front, remember that prior to Dark Phoenix - in other words, 20+ years ago - Magneto captured the X-Men and was going to keep them imprisoned permanently regressed to children as revenge. He wasn't fighting them to achieve his goal of protecting mutants, merely seeking revenge on Xavier.

---

We have entered the twilight of all reason... and that was from the "classic" X-men...
 

---