In AltName's thread on abortion, the topic came up about being anonymous when psoting on the internet. I'd kind of like to share my view here, so as not to take away from the abortion story, and confess something of myself at the same time.
One of the things I love about Hatrack is the diversity of the people I've met here. Some agree with me, some don't. But here, I feel more comfortable revealing things about myself than to, say, people I work with or go to school with. if I feel harassed, or uncomfortable, I can just click the little X at the upper right hand corner of the screen. As I recieve support on here, however, it helps me work up the nerve to tell these people, my friends and family, the things I wasn't confident enough to before. I hope that as AltName recieves support on here, she will begin to feel more comfortable with herself.
I've been debating telling you all this for a few weeks now. I posted it on the Hatrack Secrets thread, but I think it's time for me to begin to let it out, and maybe, someday, tell ym family and people other than my three closest friends about this... *deep breath*
I'm bisexual. I discovered this about two months ago, when my best friend and I were messing around. We started feeling attracted to each other, and we were not a couple, but close to it, for about a month before complications arose and we had to start keeping things platonic. I still love her, though, and she loves me. I've never been as close to someone as I am to her. For the record, I've had doubts about my sexuality from tiem to time, but my strong Christian beliefs had me refusing to admit it. I'm not a Christian now, though, and I'm beginning to accept myself, good and bad. I used to be very anti-gay, but now that I've stepped into those shoes, I understand the point of view I've been missing out on.
This brings me to my second of two confessions. I've decided to become a Wiccan. This isn't a decision made on a whim, but a decision based on over a year of research and talks with a Wiccan friend of mine. My mother knows about this, my father doesn't. This, I believe, isn't as big of a deal as my sexuality, but it's still something I'm afraid of being kicked out for. my relationship with my parents has been very degrading lately, and my dad has threatened to kick me out- msotly for stupid things like not cleaning my room. But this is a very serious issue, especially having been raised in a Christian household, where there is an old testament law that says, "Do not suffer a witch to live." I'm scared out of my mind right now, and I've talked a bit to my three closest friends about it. One of them, a girl named Chrissy, has really cool parents, as does my best friend, and Chrissy's parents have offered to take me in for the summer, at least until college starts, should my parents kick me out for this.
Anyway, these are my confessions. I hope that by talking about this to my online friends, I can build up the courage to tell my family and other friends. I'm scared, yes, but I feel more comfortable being me than I ever have. Hopefully, others on this forum will too.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Cool. I reckon I might be too...and I also was briefly interested in Wicca, but now I have no religion at the moment.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
If you have questions, Syn, I'd be more than happy to talk to you about it. I don't pretned to be an expert, but I've researched it pretty thoroughly, and I have a few good books.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I read quite a few myself But The Witches Bible was a bit frightening >.<
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Some of them are. Whatever you do, DON'T read The Necronomicon. *shudder*
It's also a bit of a pet peeve of mine when pagans use terms like "Bible" in things like that. I don't know why, it just annoys me.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
Tinros, although I haven't talked to you very much, I think you are incredibly brave to tell your family (and Hatrack) about this. I hope your family understands and accepts you for who you are. We're all rooting for you.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Ok, so I have a question and I completely understand if you don't feel like answering it. I'm going to preface this by saying I probably hang out with a pretty equal ratio of gay:straight peoples. Strange for a straight military guy but whatever.
So you decided you were bisexual in the middle of "messing around" (thank you VERY much for the visual)with a friend of the same sex. Was it like a lightening bolt? How did you reach the messing around stage BEFORE such a decision?
As someone not really attracted to my gender I have somewhat of a tough time understanding where you're coming from, and I want to.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I kind of wonder that myself.
I mean, I do think that women are gorgeous. I can generally tell you who I think is hot and who isn't, and I don't just mean the standard Angelina Jolie answer.
But although I think women are beautiful, I'm not sexually attracted to them.
So I really am interested in the mindset.
-pH
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:Whatever you do, DON'T read The Necronomicon.
This is a good thread. Almost hate to point this out, but The Necronomicon doesn't exist. There are a lot of interesting fakes out there -- but it isn't a real thing. It's fiction.
Good luck figuring this stuff out, you guys.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Why Wicca?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by TL: This is a good thread. Almost hate to point this out, but The Necronomicon doesn't exist.
Cthulhu's greatest accomplishment is convincing the world he does not exist.
Good luck on having your parents not kick you out. Are you going to tell them about being bisexual too? That's a lot to spring on them, just before going to college. Hope it goes well.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
I'm not going to pretend that I think either of these are positive developments, but I do hope your parents don't lose sight of the fact that you're their daughter and they love you.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Tinros,
The years you are traveling through at the moment are times of great discovery for every person I've ever known. What comes out on the other side is often a person far, far different from the person who entered at the beginning. But yet, there's also a sense of continuity too, in looking back from a later vantage point.
I have no real advice here, except to say that maintaining an open mind while at the same time not deliberately going down paths that are harmful to yourself is the real trick. I'm not saying Wicca or bisexuality are harmful, btw. I am saying, however, that trying things out to see how they fit is not the same as becoming those things forever and in an unchanging manner.
I hope your parents realize this and react accordingly. Hopefully, they'll be able to take a long view and wait for you to figure things out and settle into the person you are going to become before judging you on what you have concluded up to this point.
More importantly, be careful of yourself. And remember to ask yourself periodically if you are satisfied and happy with your choices.
That, by the way, is something for a lifetime -- I still review my life and use those periods of reflection to decide if changes are needed.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I'm not going to talk about how my friend and I got to the stage of messing around. It's far too personal, not just something you talk about with random people, and personally, I think it's inappropriate for this board. I can tell you, however, that when I know I love someone, it's like something clicks in the back of my mind. And looking into her eyes, something clicked. Keep in mind, I had been wondering about my sexuality for quite some time. So had she. There's more to it than that, definately, but not something I want to post on a public forum. If you're absolutely desperate, send me a private message and I'll decide whether or not to continue to talk about it.
For the record, I know theNecronomicon is a work of fiction. It's the people who believe it's true(and the content of the novel itself) that really scare me. There are black witches out there(who are not Wiccans, btw- Wiccans are white witches) who actually practice necromancy and things like that. Very, VERY creepy in my book.
Why Wicca? Because while researching it, I found that I had already agreed to and believed almost everything they believe. There are things I had always believed that Christianity doesn't- like the balance of good and evil. I don't believe you can have a perfect world, rid of all evil and completely good. If there is no evil, to what can you compare good? PLEASE don't start this into a theological debate. I'm still standing on shaky ground as far as my beliefs are concerned, and I don't want to be even more confused than I was a few months ago. If you want a debate, start a new thread, but I won't be there.
I hope that answers some questions. Thanks for the support.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
If your beliefs are so shaky that they won't stand up under honest debate, of what possible use are they?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I invite you to point me at the person in this world whose beliefs, whatever they are, have sprung athena-like from his or her brow, full-formed and without doubt or uncertainty, instead of developing tentatively over time, KoM Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
KoM, as I think I understand your question, this is not the thread to bring that up in. (It would derail it pretty badly)
Tinros, I think it's fine what you have found of yourself. As long as you are being true to yourself. Of course this is coming from someone who's fiance is more or less Wiccan, and she's bisexual. No more on that as this is your thread and not mine.
I too feel the same way with Hatrack. I feel that I can open up a bit more on here than I can with others I know in RL. Excluding the fiance of course.
Here's to hoping that your parent's are understanding and don't kick you out. I'm sure they love you.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: I invite you to point me at the person in this world whose beliefs, whatever they are, have sprung athena-like from his or her brow, full-formed and without doubt or uncertainty, instead of developing tentatively over time, KoM
I invite you to point out the relevance of this to my question. A tentative belief should not be immune to questioning; that way lies not only error, but arrogance in error. To refuse to question something on the grounds that you are not certain of it is just silly. How else are you going to become certain of it?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I would just encourage you not to rush into anything. I find it puzzling that you went from being very dedicated to Christianity to turning away from it completely. I hope that you realize that if a particular denomination or person disappointed you, Christianity is much larger than that, and many denominations can be very different. What I'm saying is that if one didn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean that none of them would. Obviously, I don't know what happened, I just hope you don't rush to judgement.
Best of luck with your parents, and for you as you struggle with these issues. As Bob pointed out, you don't have to decide what you're going to be forever and always right now.
-Katarain
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
The one thing about most religions is you can almost always go back. Most, because I know some people that are not allowed back in (odd, but not my fault). Christianity has had a losing streak lately. Personally, I dropped out of it a few years ago. Not entirely, but still. An' yes, many choices will be made throughout your life. A lot of choices made may be based on shaky ground. However, that is something everyone goes through. Even KoM. These choices may be right for you, they may not be. I don't know, but I know one thing. I support it based on the fact that it is what you believe is right for you.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I did the same thing. I was once Christian at one point, but after a lot of thought, I decided it wasn't for me and did research on Wicca and other forms of spirituality. Now I have my own system of beliefs. As for the sexuality thing, that is confusing. Perhaps i just fall for the person no matter what.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Not discussing her religious beliefs with you is not not questioning them. Notice she acknowledges their shaky nature.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I'm glad you feel safe enough to post all this here.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
((Tinros))
I'm not messing around with you, but I just want you to know that I think you are one of the coolest women on Hatrack, and I've always enjoyed your posts. Coming out is a brave thing to do, and you did it with grace and aplomb.
Wicca does seem to be an attractive faith for lesbians and bisexual women, probably because it worships and empowers the feminine. I can understand how that can be appealing.
Good luck on your journey. I'm sure that it will be an interesting one.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Let me put it this way: I am SICK and TIRED of debates, particularly those that seek to change my mind. I'm not leaving myself in ignorance, but I don't have to debate with someone to learn. KoM: in all due respect, please leave me alone.
((Tante)) thanks.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Hey, I'm sympathetic. While some people just adore a good debate, I am generally not interested in participating in them.
I let other people have fun working up a froth, while I go my merry way, blissfully convinced that I am right and that nothing that anyone can say will change that.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Oh, I'm fine with a debate, I'm just tired of being confused right now. I'm still researching, thinking about it, and I don't need angry interference with that right now. WHen I'm certain in my beliefs, I'll debate about it. Discussion is FAR different than debate in my book.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Drives 'em nuts! Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I'm not leaving myself in ignorance, but I don't have to debate with someone to learn.
I think you are, and you do. I don't particularly object; one flavour of theism is as bad as another; I'm just pointing it out.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I would just encourage you not to rush into anything. I find it puzzling that you went from being very dedicated to Christianity to turning away from it completely.
. . .
-Katarain
I understand this because I did pretty much the same thing. For me it wasn't because one "brand" didn't satisfy me. It was because my doubts about the fundamental parts of Christianity (namely the divinity of Christ) ceased to be something I could overlook. In fact, my own testimony of the denomination of Christianity that I followed was never more than "If Jesus is the son of God, then I believe this is His Church." Swapping brands would not have done a thing for me once I left my own church.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I'm not leaving myself in ignorance, but I don't have to debate with someone to learn.
I think you are, and you do. I don't particularly object; one flavour of theism is as bad as another; I'm just pointing it out.
Please, explain how by researching and discussing I'm leaving myself in ignorance. I was under the impression that by becoming more knowledgeable, I was getting rid of my ignorance, but obviously, you disagree. I can discuss and learn from friends and people who are experienced in these realms. I don't have to argue with you in order to be firm in my beliefs. Sorry if that's a blow to your ego, but it's truth. Debates piss me off, discussions help me learn. If you want a debate, find it somewhere else.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
You really can only research, discuss, and debate over your and other people's opinions. It's not as if there's an irrefutable "proof" of religious or athiestic belief. We just don't really know anything for sure.
Research will only give you insight into the answers other people have arrived at.
It comes down to faith and what you decide to believe is true. Don't have much of a reason for posting this, except that you seem to be saying that researching all this stuff is going to lead you to some irrefutable truth. I know you didn't say that specifically, but it's the impression I get.
KoM can be pretty caustic, but I don't see that he's necessarily trying to debate with you, he was just pointing out that your beliefs should be able to stand up to debate.
In any case, he's correct, but you don't have to discuss or debate (I see no difference between the two here.) until you want to and are ready to--and find someone who wants to participate.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Research by one person is always going to be biased, especially in so subjective an area as religion. Now, the debate doesn't have to be on Hatrack; I was under the impression that you didn't want to debate with anyone at all, not just the Hatrack people. But if you do not discuss your beliefs with anyone, they are always going to be a rather weak reed; beliefs that have only stood up to attack from one direction, and from within the believer at that, have never been really tested.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Tinros: My best friend from high school is bi and Wiccan as well. She realized at your age and now she is happily married (but still bi) to a man and still Wiccan, so ignore those who tell you it's a phase as that isn't always the case.
I am not Wiccan, but I do know a lot about the religionif you need any information. I hear Raymond Buckland's book on Witchcraft is excellent. A lot of books out there are flaky--I would encourage you to join online groups for support and guidance.
Sounds like a big transition for you. My advice is to just let things develop slowly so people can get used to them. Eventually, people will realize you are serious about your beliefs and then you can share more overtly. Just take it easy.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I didn't say I'm not talking about it. I've talked to quite a few people about it. I'm just sick of being attacked.
Kristen, I've been reading "Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner" by Scott Cunningham. It's really interesting so far. I looked for the Buckland books at the library and local bookstore, but couldn't find them. I might see if Barnes & Noble can order it for me, though.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
More power to you, Tinros. I'm inclined to say that discovering new things about yourself can never be a bad thing, only how you react to those discoveries. It took courage to admit this sort of thing knowing how many people would comment and criticize. Remember that you have that courage when you're faced with the difficulties of your situation. Best of luck. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I can see how Wicca can be very appealing, especially to women, and especially to people who don't feel that Christianity is fulfilling their spiritual needs.
I stopped attending Southern Baptist church because I feel that the denomination is doing nothing more than strongarming people. Supposedly, Southern Baptists began their church with the idea that people should be able to interpret the Bible, and yet the church always told me that if I disagreed with the Southern Baptist Convention's interpretation of certain, specific verses, that meant that I didn't accept the Bible as the true word of God, and thus, I was not "right with God."
They also did several other things that I thought were awful, but that's for my OCD thread.
At any rate, I wish you luck. I hope that you can work everything out with your family. Keep in mind that it may be a bit of a shock for them, but they're still your family, and they still care about you, even if they're surprised or disapprove.
-pH
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
Tinros, it takes a lot of courage to deviate from the norm, and I really admire you for it.
quote:Originally posted by pH: I can see how Wicca can be very appealing, especially to women, and especially to people who don't feel that Christianity is fulfilling their spiritual needs.
I've actually been studying this lately. The holistic milieu (to steal the language of Wuthnow) is very appealing to women. Its growth can be seen as a reaction to what is at best inequality and at worst outright hostility from many organized religions.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Celaeno, we talked about that in a class last year, and now I'm taking another class on the roles of women in Christianity.
Christianity started out as being really freeing and appealing to women.
-pH
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Welcome out of the closet, Tin =) There are a lot of us about.
And congratulations on coming out of the Broom Closet as well! I've known a ton of Wiccans over the years and they were all wonderful people.
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((Tinros)) ![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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