I ask a lot o' folks on the streets what they think about doing away with the borders. Down here, nobody wants to hear it. It's like..
'oh, that will never happen' or 'not in your life, buddy' or 'it would be the world's end'..
I don't get it. All the serious spiritual teachers I have known tell me that 'intention' is what makes all things possible. Our 'intention' is to have borders? To keep people away? To make sure nobody who is not like us can't come into our 'country'? I don't feel I belong to any 'country'. What's a 'country'? When did I sign up to be in a 'country'? Am I Mexican? Am I a citizen of the US of A?
If war broke out between Mexico and the US of A, where would I stand?
Probably with Mexico, because I always go for the underdog. But really, for me it's like.. 'National Security'? Are you kidding me!?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Robin, I'm almost as pro-immigration as it's possible to be. But do you really believe that a nation should not make some effort to monitor and filter the people who enter it?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Borders are racist.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
That depends on what you consider a Nation.
I consider the Aryan Nations, the Hopi, the Neo-Aztecs a Nation. I do not consider the USA nor Mexico a Nation.
Sure, a people should have a right to determine who can and cannot join their private clubs. But guess what? The USA is a corporation, and it's blatantly unfair to Mexico Inc, Panama Inc, etc.
Bottom line: borders are stupid.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
What do you propose instead?
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Also, Aryan Nations? ? Are you serious? You're condeming the U.S.A. but saying okay to a bigoted ^@$#@$%^ group?
Wait, wait, perhaps I am jumping to conclusions. To which Aryan Nations are you referring?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. Robin, I think you're letting your rhetorical biases taint your definition of terms. What's your criteria for a "nation?"
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Nation is a group of people who share a culture. A state is a government with territory and so on. The U.S. and Mexico are, at best, nation-states.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Okay, I have semi-coherent thoughts:
Borders are not stupid. No matter how many songs are written about the whole world living as one in peace, it's never gonna happen. You've probably seen the bumper sticker "Think globally, act locally". I think that this premise is correct, and you can see how it works. The smaller the scale, the easier it is to cater to the various needs of the group in question. Borders are necessary in order to organize and serve and protect and provide for the people. (Let me add that I am using 'border' in its most general sense).
However, I also think that too much emphasis on borders *is* stupid. Like the USA-Mexico border, for example. Because even though it is easier to manage a smaller region, particularly one that is separate from its neighbors in terms of culture, language, economic power, political leaning, etc; it also is necessary (I believe) to establish some world-wide standards. And it is especially important that economically powerful and culturally influencial nations (and here I am thinking primarily the U.S.) conform to those standards, the logic there being if *this* extremely well-off country that has a long history of exploiting less powerful countries/peoples can't do it, why should *this* country that has been one of the exploited for a long time, and is working at a disadvantage, be forced to? I mean, if Britain had been enforcing child labour laws and watching their pollution and mining in an environmentally friendly way, and hell, looking out for thier drinking water safety, then they would have NEVER become the far-stretching empire that they did, and would not have the relative economic safety that they do.
I forgot my point. I'm not going to go back and look for it though. If someone notices it, please point it out. Sorry for rambing, I am a little drunk.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: You know kids,
I ask a lot o' folks on the streets what they think about doing away with the borders. Down here, nobody wants to hear it. It's like..
'oh, that will never happen' or 'not in your life, buddy' or 'it would be the world's end'..
I don't get it. All the serious spiritual teachers I have known tell me that 'intention' is what makes all things possible. Our 'intention' is to have borders? To keep people away? To make sure nobody who is not like us can't come into our 'country'? I don't feel I belong to any 'country'. What's a 'country'? When did I sign up to be in a 'country'? Am I Mexican? Am I a citizen of the US of A?
If war broke out between Mexico and the US of A, where would I stand?
Probably with Mexico, because I always go for the underdog. But really, for me it's like.. 'National Security'? Are you kidding me!?
Are you serious? Because if you are, Champ, I think you've a pretty good chance of joining some kind of Idiot Nation. I believe they're a chapter of either the Aryan Nation or the Nation of Islam.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Ariman: sad but true. All too common here in California. Mexicans are a bit more optimistic on the streets. Just observations.
Tom: Nation? Aryan Nation and Nation of Islam come to mind. Frankly, Nation is one of those terms I rather not think about. But the US of A? A Nation? Hardly. More like a private club for very rich guys.
Princess... Princess... Princess... Roll a D20.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: Ariman: sad but true. All too common here in California. Mexicans are a bit more optimistic on the streets. Just observations.
Tom: Nation? Aryan Nation and Nation of Islam come to mind. Frankly, Nation is one of those terms I rather not think about. But the US of A? A Nation? Hardly. More like a private club for very rich guys.
Princess... Princess... Princess... Roll a D20.
Jolo.. OK. I can't argue with that. Is that from wikipedia?
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I think the fact that many mexicans risk their lives and lose their lives just to live in America means that they would be pretty good American Citizens. I think it's incredible that they love America so much that they want to sing her national anthem any way they can, even if it isn't in English.
I think the stink that Bush is raising about the borders is just another War to add to the War on Terror and the War in Iraq. Now--the War on Immigration. Orwell's Perpetual Wars for Peace.
Lastly, from Leah "No matter how many songs are written about the whole world living as one in peace, it's never gonna happen."
It's exactly that type of thinking that ensures that world peace won't happen.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But the US of A? A Nation? Hardly. More like a private club for very rich guys.
Ha! Don't let reality and statistics get in your way there, bub. That'd break your momentum.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Borders aren't stupid, they are useful. But not in and of themselves. When their usefulness is outweighed by the usefulness of not having them, then they should be erased. Maybe you think that time has happened (I don't), but you haven't giving much in the way of support for your statement.
-Bok
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
quote:Lastly, from Leah "No matter how many songs are written about the whole world living as one in peace, it's never gonna happen."
It's exactly that type of thinking that ensures that world peace won't happen.
I'm sorry for butting in on your perfect idea of humanity. My mistake. Someday we will all get along. Here's your guitar back. Continue.
quote:Princess... Princess... Princess... Roll a D20.
Huh?
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
I'm guessing that D20 is a nettism for doobie. Just a guess, though. And you probably ought to if you're going to be listening to LW play kumbaya on the guitar.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
"Good Fences make Good Neighbors"
BC
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: "Good Fences make Good Neighbors"
BC
Sometimes they make for very ingenious neighbors.
-Bok
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I'm guessing that D20 is a nettism for doobie. Just a guess, though.
You'd be wrong. A d20 is much, much nerdier than a joint, although the two ARE linked in the minds of people who first picked up the game because they liked the dragon artwork in the '70s.
-------
Robin, you STILL didn't manage to define "nation," although you managed to repeat yourself three times on that "point."
So let me make it clearer: do you not agree that governments should have the ability to monitor traffic across their borders?
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: "Good Fences make Good Neighbors"
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it Where there are cows?"
/devil's advocate
Posted by jh (Member # 7727) on :
I don't remember exactly, but I thought I've read something that said that a lot of problems occurred in Africa because of border-drawing. Before the European powers went in and carved out their individual sections of the continent by drawing specific borders, tribes lived together (representing a nation) and would occasionally fight with other ones.
However, when the European countries drew their borders signifying "their conquest" it would cut land in half that was shared by the same tribe, so that one half of the tribe was part of one "country" and the other half part of another one. Also, the European countries would draw their borders around 1 or more tribes, so often tribes that were in conflict with each other ended up in the same "country."
I think that problems would have occurred is that the European countries would have wanted to protected their own land on the continent in case it was taken away, which meant protection of borders. Thus, families/tribes were torn apart in the process.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Launch: right on.
Rak..: Reality? Whose reality? Yours? Mine? Bush's? Fox's? Far as I know, California is still Mexico. Care to argue with me on that? I have a few million Mexicans that will be violently disagreeing with you! Wanna talk borders? OK! LETS TALK BORDERS!
Bok: The usefulness of borders is not only over, the danger of maintaing them is clear and present. Just ask my friends who really like to play high level D&D.
jh: case in point to what you just said, the Mayans and the border between Mexico and Guatemala. It's an artificial border, created with European Colonialist interests in mind, then reinforced by very rich people with very big investments in banking etc. But artificial, because the land that is down there, actually belongs, originally, and by any serious definition of justice, to the Mayans who LIVE THERE. It's like the Irish and the potato famine. Why should folks in Mexico City decide the borders of Mayan territories?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Still not answering the question at hand, Robin. Why are you scared of it?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Much of this is not an indictment of borders but on the ignoring of existing borders.
Dead neighbors are not good neighbors and yes I grew up in cow country.
We have no more resources then Mexico and South America, they have all the same stuff to make their own America. Far better for them to build it there in Mexico then for us to give up our bottom teir of labor and take the best and brightest of them out of their home country.
BC
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
I'm not sure she's scared of it as much as she is just....ignorant and simple.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Robin,
Answering straightforward statements with straightforward statements is clearly not a priority with you. Instead, you'll just deny all definitions. Alas! It's not a new and interesting technique. Nor are you.
California is one of the fifty states in the United States of America. Its residents live under US law, pay US taxes, have US rights and responsibilities, and have American representatives as their government. Their currency is American, as is the business of running their state.
So despite your foolish yelling, despite the fact that you don't speak for Mexican-Americans (thank God for that), and in spite of the fact that the USA essentially stole the American Southwest from Mexico over a century ago, it's American now.
Nice try. Please, by all means, respond to any one of my statements with an actual argument instead of outright childish head-in-the-sand denial.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: We have no more resources then Mexico and South America, they have all the same stuff to make their own America. Far better for them to build it there in Mexico then for us to give up our bottom teir of labor and take the best and brightest of them out of their home country.
BC
Here is where I disagree; we do have more resources, in some ways, and had some fortunate breaks in our history to boot. Further, I don't see any porblem with them taking up ANY tier of our society, especially their best and brightest (though construction made me wonder if you meant their best and brightest filled our lower tier); in fact, I'd like to make it as easy for them to come here and work as it is to import any other sort of natural resources, or anything else.
That said, we need to do our due diligence to ensure that they are peaceful, and they desire work.
-Bok
-Bok
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I deeply mistrust claims that we should oust illegal immigrants because it would be better for their own nations, as though it were a favor done for other nations.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: Ariman: sad but true. All too common here in California. Mexicans are a bit more optimistic on the streets. Just observations.
You need to think through your observations before you put forth ridiculous inferences. Read my name again more slowly and I think you might be able to figure out my position on national pride. While you may not agree with the separation of peoples by imaginary lines, at least have respect for the ideals protected by those borders.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I think the fact that many mexicans risk their lives and lose their lives just to live in America means that they would be pretty good American Citizens. I think it's incredible that they love America so much that they want to sing her national anthem any way they can, even if it isn't in English.
They don't do it just to live in America because they love it so much and want to be part of it. They do it to get more money, usually because conditions are so bad in their native country that they're willing to risk death, imprisonment, and living in the shadows just to be able to have a better standard of living for them and their families. I'd do the same if I was in their shoes to be honest.
However, I think it's mistaken to confuse economic incentive with love of a nation. If another nation and the United States' economies and geographies were exchanged, no doubt they would flock there instead.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Robin, I'm just curious, could you tell us more about yourself. Where are you from, how old are you, what do you do?
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Robin, I'm just curious, could you tell us more about yourself. Where are you from, how old are you, what do you do?
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Tom: I fear nothing. Except, maybe disappointing my family. And you know well why I will not answer that now! When my flag is in the Pentagon, only then will I answer your question. I haven't figured out how to build my own yet!
BC: We have reached a Mexican Standoff. You have your point of view. I have mine. You build a wall, I make sure it gets blown up. Who will win this agrument?
Ak....Mr. Robin. To you.
Rak: OK. You are right and I am wrong? Happy? Fool. Now we all have to die anyhow.
Bao: Right. You are correct.
Ariman, nobody here is a bigger fan of the GOOD things the USA has done. Hell, I'm still listening to Bill O'Riley! And who can argue with Mickey Mouse?
Breyerchic.. I did a kinda 'blog' of myself on www.deoxy.org you are welcome to find it if you can. But to answer your question: I am a 38 year old white male, (if such a thing exists)who considers himself a true searcher of truth, both inner and outer, a fan of star trek, anything Japanese, peyotero, wannabe Huixol, marihuanero, honguero, child of God, looking for the light kinda dude. But those are really just labels, huh? I am a family man. I am an aspiring Zen Monk who refuses the monk part, a D&D addict... Perfectly ordinar... wanna be film producer.
[ June 12, 2006, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Robin Kaczmarczyk ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I fear nothing. Except, maybe disappointing my family.
That's a lie. A man who claims to fear nothing except disappointing his family has no business calling anyone else a fool...except insofar as he has the capacity to recognize the trait so abundant in himself in others.
I know lots of aspiring Zen Monks who want to be film producers. Instead of, you know, striving for enlightenment. What a pack of bullshit.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by akhockey: I'm not sure she's scared of it as much as she is just....ignorant and simple.
I think that's "he". But other than that, I agree with your estimation.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:When my flag is in the Pentagon, only then will I answer your question. I haven't figured out how to build my own yet!
I suspected as much. It's very easy to criticize a mechanism that exists on at least one level to preserve a power imbalance when you're on the wrong side of that imbalance.
But borders do not MERELY preserve power imbalances. They also secure a country against external threat, preserve national identities, and make it possible to enforce laws and restrictions within a region that are not respected by neighbors. I argue that these are all worthy functions, even if they're not always applied well or worthily.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I think Robin is Thor's evil twin.
By the way, where has Thor been lately?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know Karl, I was just thinking the same thing, which also led me to wonder what Thor had been up to lately.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Well, I guess if "Great Minds" can think alike, our kind can too. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: Rak..: Reality? Whose reality? Yours? Mine? Bush's? Fox's? Far as I know, California is still Mexico. Care to argue with me on that? I have a few million Mexicans that will be violently disagreeing with you! Wanna talk borders? OK! LETS TALK BORDERS!
And this is why we must maintain our borders. A swarm of people who come in, don't acculturate and suddenly want their new land to be part of their old land?
Isn't that how we took Tejas from you?
Pix
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Robin can't be Thor. His posts are not in psuedo-poetic form.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
That's why I said evil twin, silly. Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
I really wish that some day one of these posts by Robin would be even remotely coherent and lead to a real discussion... every once in a while (such as this time) I see a faint hope that it could evolve into a real constructive debate, but they're always derailed by his incoherent ramblings...
Examples of tangents that I think would be interesting and informative: 1) Differences in US and European borders (i.e. more of an open-door policy in europe?) 2) Effects of imposing more advanced culture and technology in regions not ready for them (i.e. artificially forming nations, providing firearms etc to cultures still in the tribal phase, such as africa)
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Grimace.. It's the 11th hour thing. Y'know?
Long discussions and reason are fine. But..
Orc Hordes?
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Scott, your opinion I value more than any of these kids.. What do you say to all this? Come on, give an old friend some hope for a better world..
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Scott, your opinion I value more than any of these kids.. What do you say to all this? Come on, give an old friend some hope for a better world..
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Scott, your opinion I value more than any of these kids.. What do you say to all this? Come on, give an old friend some hope for a better world..
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*laugh* At least you're not asking for his input in your pro-pedophilia thread.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Well, Tom.
I think I know where this is going, see? So the Pedo part of my argument is the 'eye' opener of the whole operation.
So, lets stick to the nice dreams, shall we? Lets stick to the border.
Here is my reasoning on all this. Time, seems to be still on my side, I am getting older, true, and none the wiser, true.. But I'm still around, freeloving, waccy-tabbacy smoking, walkin' and t.a.l.k.i.n.g.
Imagine a world where folks would no longer talk to each other? It would be, I fear, a horrid thing, to leave civiltry behind and stop at least TRY to reason with our a.d.v.e.r.s.a.r.i.e.s.
Right?
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Or as my family is fond of saying in Mexico..
Que Pedo?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm with you so far, Robin. Can you explain why borders preclude the possibility of reasoning with adversaries?
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Because, my dear Tom, if you are considered a trespasser, unable to be hosted by somebody, before you even come in, you are already trying to figure out how to get out.
Is that condusive to helpful dialogue?
The Muslims have rules about that. You HAVE to let somebody rest in your home. If they are thirsty and tired. And you HAVE to give them at least a little food and water if they need it.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:I fear nothing. Except, maybe disappointing my family.
That's a lie. A man who claims to fear nothing except disappointing his family has no business calling anyone else a fool...except insofar as he has the capacity to recognize the trait so abundant in himself in others.
I know lots of aspiring Zen Monks who want to be film producers. Instead of, you know, striving for enlightenment. What a pack of bullshit.
Ok. I could have been in error about the fear factor. I guess I haven't pushed hard enough yet, have I?
Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
Underlying all discussions of illegal immigration and open borders is one unavoidable truth: open borders between the US and Mexico would be the best thing to ever happen to the corrupt Mexican power elites. Illegal Mexican aliens and the money they send home keeps the corrupt Mexican politicians and robber barrons in power and forestalls any meaningful reforms that country will ever see. Next to oil revenues, very little of which filters down to the poor, money from relatives in the US is the country's biggest source of funds. If we want to help to continue to oppression of Mexico's poor masses, then lets open the borders. If you want to help keep Mexican children begging on the streets for generation after generation, then open the borders. Does anyone think that Presidente Fox opposes efforts to close the borders because of his spiritual enlightenment? Or is it perhaps because he knows that the corrupt system he presides over is dependent on illegal border crossings?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote:If you want to help keep Mexican children begging on the streets for generation after generation
Yeah...I don't so much care about this...I'd prefer to protect my children's futures by hoarding and protecting as many opportunites as possible, especially if it means that I get to repress some foreigners at the same time. (I do so love these all or nothing topics. Picking an extreme is much easier than dealing with the problem.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The Muslims have rules about that. You HAVE to let somebody rest in your home. If they are thirsty and tired. And you HAVE to give them at least a little food and water if they need it.
It's worth noting that not a single Islamic country has an open border policy.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
Thank you for mentioning that Tom... It's definately worth mentioning that the U.S. even if it doesn't have the most friendly border policy at all times certainly has one of the more civil border policies compared to many other nations. i.e. unless you're doing something really crazy you're not going to be shot for crossing the US border illegally, you're just going to be sent back home for not following proper channels.
Again I'd like to see more of this discussion directed towards comparing and contrasting border policies with Europe (or to be honest any actual information on what any other country's border policies actually are) rather than random philosophical musings on what the Quaran might say... the Bible also mentions giving your neighbor your coat etc, but that doesn't mean any "cristian" nation allows completely free border traffic, or enforces mandatory donations of overgarments to travellers.
And Robin... I think what would be most condusive to a helpful dialogue would be for you to adopt a realistic world view.
I hate to be that harsh, but honestly...
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:The Muslims have rules about that. You HAVE to let somebody rest in your home. If they are thirsty and tired. And you HAVE to give them at least a little food and water if they need it.
It's worth noting that not a single Islamic country has an open border policy.
Just because the Koran has good ideas, it does not necessarily mean that the Muslims will follow them, Tom.. Just like the Bible, huh?
Grimm..
Don't go there, man, please don't go there.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, you brought up Muslims and borders and hospitality. Not Tom.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Rak.
That's because my dad's a Sufi, and I do know a bit about Sufis.
BTW. Just about any real 'civilization', India, Africa, even bloody Europe have certain rules about letting people 'crash'.
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