Fallen soldier’s wife wants Wiccan symbol on headstone
FERNLEY, Nev. — Nevada National Guard Sgt. Patrick Stewart gave his life for his country when the Chinook helicopter he was in was shot down in Afghanistan in September.
But those wishing to honor Stewart, who should have his name on the memorial wall at the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery in Fernley, would have a difficult time doing so.
The space reserved for Stewart is vacant. Stewart was a follower of the Wiccan religion, which is not recognized by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Hmm. I *think* this is just a matter of no one knowing what symbol to put on Wiccan markers, rather than prejudice against a certain religion.
Incidentally, a website that claims to educate the world about witchcraft "so you don't have to" recently linked to a signing I was doing for 'Blackberry Witch.'
I write about it in my blog.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The problem arises when apparently efforts to get this symbol recognized have been, according to someone quoted in the article, "under way for a decade". I see one or two similarly recent religions on the list of approved symbols.
Regardless of what one thinks of Wicca, there are people who follow it as a religion, and have been for a decent bit of time now. There is a common religious symbol for it. If there has been delay for a decade (which has not been substantiated; it may be no official process was started until recently, though one would hope they expedite the matter), there are problems. If they turn down the current request, there are much bigger problems.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I agree with Scott. Seems like the journalist is trying to hard to make it sound like she was told "NO, we won't have any of you d****d witches on our memorial!" when in fact it's more a logistical problem. They say they filed the application in January, well, I can tell you from my experience with the military in general and the Dept of VA in specific that six months is not enough time. They just need to be patient until the great wheels in that dept. turn and it gets done.
Now, if the VA had turned down the application, we'd have a story. But as they haven't, this is making a mountain out of a molehill.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Agreed, fugu.
Plus, the VA has been going through a lot of scandal this year...
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
It will get approved.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
But no one specifies what efforts have been made for a decade. The only specific we're given is that they filed an application in January.
I'm not defending the VA or saying that six months or more is a reasonable amount of time, of course it isn't. They're horribly inefficient and they drive everyone who deals with them crazy. My mom has been working with someone on the issue of her military widow's benefits for more than a year and a half and doesn't have a simple answer to one question. No, they haven't forgotten her, she keeps calling and checking and they keep telling her they're working on it and will get back to her.
Again, we have a story when we have official denial from the VA. Until then, it's just a story about how inefficient they are and that's no real story, most people who deal with them have known it for years.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Nevada National Guard Sgt. Patrick Stewart
You watch, his headstone will have an emblem, all right - a TELEPATHIC ENTERPRISE.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
That's right by where I live. I wondered why all those goats had gone missing...
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
BaoQingTian, I imagine that comment would be offensive to any wiccans who might read it.
Posted by Andrew W (Member # 4172) on :
Yeah, but it's still damn funny.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I'm wondering what the history of the current list of emblems is -- how long it took each of the groups listed to lobby for their particular emblem, or what the process was. Who determined what the symbol for atheists should be, for example? How many followers of a certain belief system need to request an emblem before they create one?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Who determined what the symbol for atheists should be, for example?
Yeah, that's the first thing I thought while reading the article when it mentioned that there was an atheist emblem. What emblem would that be, and who picked it?
Its not a horrible emblem, but its a bit ugly. The little "A" in the middle is pretty silly looking.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Is it a scarlet A?
-pH
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I dunno. Makes me feel a little bit like a superhero. "Up in the sky! It's Doubt-Man!"
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Sorry Karl, I also apologize to any Wiccans listening. It was intended to be along the lines of the Christian or Jew eating baby type jokes. Just kind of poking fun at ridiculous sterotypes.
So while it is near where I live, I haven't heard any reports of missing goats.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Maybe they are covering up the missing goats!
(I also read it as a baby-eating type of joke.)
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Is it a scarlet A?
-pH
It's an atom with the letter A in the middle.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
WHAT!!!???
WTF!!!
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I kinda like the atheist symbol. Yeah, the "A" could have been a little sharper, and they could have refrained from cutting the image at the bottom, but hey, it's a start...
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: WHAT!!!???
WTF!!!
Okay, aside from the fact that the abbreviation you used is offensive to some people here (which you may not have realized), it might be nice if you gave some indication of what exactly you were reacting to.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
My guess would be acid. Perhaps meth though.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Maybe E, actually. Doesn't that make people overly excitable?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
The thing about an atheist symbol is that getting atheists to agree on one is like herding cats. There was a long discussion about it here at one point, though I can't be bothered to dig up the actual thread. Anyway, there were the 'A' supporters, the IPU-emblem supporters (split into the 'stylized' and 'natural' schools), the people who wanted the 'ø' symbol (on the grounds that it is not only the empty set, which is equal to 'the set of gods that exist', but also is a standard ASCII symbol). Then there were the people who wanted the humanist man, the people who didn't want a symbol at all (because atheism isn't a religion, and why help out the theist propaganda by representing it as one?), the people who didn't really care about the symbol, but would sell you a silver IPU talisman, and the guy who got the IPU tattooed on his neck. The IPU be praised that this was back before the invention of the heretic FSM, or there would no doubt have been a bunch of noodly-appendage symbols as well.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
You should use the Vulcan IDIC symbol man, that would be cool.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'd vote for the "no symbol at all" approach, actually.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I'm sure someone suggested it, yes. Along with every other possible science fiction symbol that doesn't belong to an explicitly religious organisation.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'd vote for the "no symbol at all" approach, actually.
See? Herding cats, I tell you. Me, I like the IPU and the empty set, with the latter having the edge because of the ASCII bit. Though the IPU is cooler for non-online applications.
ø!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, see, I don't like the implication that all atheists are science nerds. If people want to start a Science Nerd religion, they're welcome to do so. But atheists can be just as uninformed as anyone else. *grin*
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Actually, the goats were missing because we were releasing them into the wild...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Maybe E, actually. Doesn't that make people overly excitable?
Actually, E tends to make people incredibly relaxed. I went to an E party once, and it pretty much consisted of everyone lounging around chatting conversationally. This was a huge contrast to the alcohol parties I normally attended at the time, where there were always people getting roudy and wanting to start fights / trouble.
I would imagine that the effect you associate with E here is actually from the meth or cocaine which is often mixed with MDMA (or MDE) in the pills people commonly refer to as ecstacy.
Its interesting to note what people's conceptions of ecstasy are though. Most people think that it makes you incredibly aroused, when my (albiet limited) experience indicates quite the opposite. In fact at the party I was at, there were numerous unoccupied bedrooms, several couples in attendance, and not even any making-out happening.
Back on topic, I wouldn't be opposed to the empty set, if indeed any emblem at all is needed.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Okay, now, that's just disturbing.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Angel dust, then?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I thought he was cute. Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
From what I understand, the atomic A was created by American Atheists (Murray Ohaire et al).
I don't like it much myself.
I don't think that having a symbol implies that a belief system is a religion though. There used to be a stylized version of the IPU that looked like a paintbrush swoosh. I liked that one. The version listed below is too hard edged to represent something that is invisible..
atheist symbols Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Lisa..
My job description, the one I put on my resumee is
BRUJO VALLESANO
Meaning, specifically, male witch from the town of valle de bravo
Does that make it clear?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Wait! Are you Carlos Castenada?
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Lisa, RK is really a troll. Maybe a troll on E or any other variety of alternative substances but still a troll.
On the subject of the memorial marker, the person I am really annoyed by is the wife. I don't personally agree with her or her late husband's choice of religion but I think it is their soul not mine so who am I to complain. What bothers me is that since she can't memorialize him using that symbol (yet), she is just not going to honor him at all. That seems much more dishonorable than not allowing the symbol on the marker. If my husband were to die and be memorialized in a country that was predominately not Christian and we were not allowed to put the cross on his memorial, I would still allow his name to be put in a place of honor. The cross is in his heart and mine. I don't need it on a plaque to know it or to prove it to the world. I guess the same can be said of his name but having a blank space where his name should be just seems worse to me.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Wait! Are you Carlos Castenada?
No, but he wishes he was.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm not sure, but I suspect that you probably get one freebie from the VA as part of the interment "package" and her point may be that others get their symbol without a huge hassle.
And, I think there's also allowances to be made for a grieving widow.
That and, well...if this is a final resting place, then the importance of it sort of goes up.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be contrarian here, I just thought of a few aspects of this that made me have a bit more sympathy for her point of view.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: Lisa..
My job description, the one I put on my resumee is
BRUJO VALLESANO
Meaning, specifically, male witch from the town of valle de bravo
Does that make it clear?
What, you think I didn't look at your profile and see your website the moment I saw you posting? Particularly seeing the way that you post?
Neither a brujo nor a bruja are necessarily the kind of witch Wiccans identify as. But I take it you're saying that you are. Fine. Blessed be, and maybe consider refraining from profanity here, even in abbreviated form. You know, just to be nice.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Lisa, RK is really a troll. Maybe a troll on E or any other variety of alternative substances but still a troll.
On the subject of the memorial marker, the person I am really annoyed by is the wife. I don't personally agree with her or her late husband's choice of religion but I think it is their soul not mine so who am I to complain. What bothers me is that since she can't memorialize him using that symbol (yet), she is just not going to honor him at all. That seems much more dishonorable than not allowing the symbol on the marker. If my husband were to die and be memorialized in a country that was predominately not Christian and we were not allowed to put the cross on his memorial, I would still allow his name to be put in a place of honor. The cross is in his heart and mine. I don't need it on a plaque to know it or to prove it to the world. I guess the same can be said of his name but having a blank space where his name should be just seems worse to me.
I don't know. If I were in her place, and they didn't have a Jewish symbol, I'd probably do the same thing. Maybe not in a country that had an official religion, but in the US? Yeah, I think I'd stand on ceremony exactly the way she's doing. Right is right.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
For reference, RK is a he, not a she.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Me Mexican Troll Shaman.
Me powerful juju.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: BaoQingTian, I imagine that comment would be offensive to any wiccans who might read it.
Actually, every Wiccan or Pagan I've ever known, myself included, well, they LOVE joking about their religion. If it's not meant to be offensive, it's not taken as offensive. Like, "If a witch practices on a beach, is he a sandwich?" We find these things incredibly funny. If you can't laugh at yourself, then you can't laugh. We're the funniest people we know, and we're quite aware that we look ridiculous to non-Wiccans. But in the name of comedy, we do love to laugh.
On the subject, though, I was under the impression that the Department of Veterans was one of the only US organizations that hadn't recognized Wicca as a religion. I know for a fact that there are other government organizations that recognize it, but I'm not sure which ones. As for the symbole, and upright pentagram is the standard symbol for Wicca. Almost every witch uses it, it's the base for the magic circle, the base of all praise to the God and Goddess... it's just standard. I would think that one would be okay.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Are witch and Wiccan interchangeable terms for a practitioner of Wicca? Just curious.
And until the VA flat out refuses to recognize her husband's religion, I think this is all premature. She's going through the necessary process to get Wicca recognized now. If they reject her request, then I can see getting upset, but until then, let it go through the correct steps and withhold all the blustering "I can't believe this!" for when it's justified and necessary.
I think though, that I agree with Lisa on the issue of leaving the space blank. Were it me personally, and I had just died and could come back to tell my wife what I wanted done, I'd tell her to leave the space blank until whatever symbol I wanted in that space was approved. Otherwise I'd feel like my name next to a blank symbol-less space was a waiver for the VA's behavior. She's still honoring him in her heart, and honoring him by making sure that he is forever remembered in the fashion he wanted, as a Wiccan. Give her a break.
I'm not even sure which symbol would apply to me. Probably the humanist one, but I'm not a secular humanist, I believe in a higher power, just nothing specific enough to be shoved into a religious category. Where's the unspecified god believer symbol?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:If you can't laugh at yourself, then you can't laugh.
Alas, you're wrong.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Scott
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Tante Scott Tinrow Tinros
If you can laugh at someone laughing at themself, that counts...
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Are witch and Wiccan interchangeable terms for a practitioner of Wicca? Just curious.
Yes and no. All Wiccans (that I know of) use the term Witch for themselves. For male and female, incidentally. But the word "witch" doesn't necessarily denote a Wiccan. Of course.
And there are Wiccans and Wiccans. Most Wiccans today follow a neo-Pagan practice which, while it may have conceptual/emotional roots in older pagan religion, is certainly a modern reconstruction. But there are others. My partner had a very good friend who was 47th in a line of Wiccan priestesses, for example.
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
Yesterday, I vivisted Vicky up at Panpipes in Hollywood. She looked sad.
The Wiccans need to start getting attentive. Times are changing and so must the role of witches. Do what thou willt shall be the whole of the Law isn't cutting it because folks are not really that smart.
I have personally trained my own witches on the Tarot. That's what I do back home, and I feel I am more than conversant in it. But Training Witches is still that ... training. And I feel like witches worldwide need to start getting together and forming real councils and not just potlucks. They need to get down with Budists, Chirstians, Muslims, Jews and find out how they can HELP.
If our modern day witches are not sensitive to feel this urge, maybe they should stop practicing all together. I know a few shamanic circles around and I know they are doing the WORK.
Well, witches need to start getting in on the act and stop eating so much fried chicken!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Yeah, the "A" could have been a little sharper, and they could have refrained from cutting the image at the bottom, but hey, it's a start...
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Scott