I'm writing a webcomic that has a character who is over a hundred years old. However, his brain has never been exposed to the chemicals produced during puberty-- in effect, he has remained 10 years old for about 92 years.
I'm aware that a man who is castrated before puberty retains much of his childhood physique-- slight build, high voice, underveloped muscles, etc... how would NOT experiencing puberty affect someone mentally?
Any ideas?
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Probably prefers talking to younger people than adults.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
My guess is that that person would be touchy about their age (obviously), and probably cantankerous from a lifetime of cheek pinching.
Is his emotional development on par, or is he stunted mentally as well?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Anne Rice treated this as if the person grew up mentally despite maintaining her little girl body.
I suggest you do what's best to make an interesting character and run with the plot.
I've had ideas for a similar, but not identical character. One of the main characters in a story I'm thinking about writing. He's stuck in the teen years though.
Pix
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
You should do a check on "Castrati". Thise musicians were extant until fairly modern times. Other than the difference in vocal range, there were apparantly few differences with their peers. They were as successful as scholars, craftsmen and businesmen as other musicians of the time. Many were physically robust. In fact, the reason that the music written for them is not played as much today, is that most singers with the range do not have the power to properly interperet the music.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hmm...maybe he'd have a personality that assumes he will never, ever be in charge. I'm trying to think of what life is like at 10, and a lot of it involves other people managing your life. Even if he's independent, if he looks like a 10 year old, people are going to try and run his life.
When he does weild power, it can't be because he's the most commanding. There will need to be another reason why anyone would listen to him.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Is his emotional development on par, or is he stunted mentally as well?
This was part of the reason I asked this question-- what effects could the lack of puberty-induced chemicals have on a person's emotional/psychological developement?
The person in question received an excellent education, and holds an extremely important position on a starship (Navigator/Head of security).
The thread on the Teenage Brain was interesting to me for this reason-- do the chemicals produced during puberty affect the physiology of the brain, which affects the attitude?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
That's an excellent question, and I have no idea.
I would assume that the hormones have at least a peripheral effect on brain development, but maybe the experience is the real important thing.
Does a ten year old get to be as smart as a twenty year old if he doesn't grow or develop at all in the ten intervening years?
One other thing, I'm not sure I agree with T_smith about him wanting to associate with mostly kids. Kids all want to be grown up -- they can't wait for it to happen. So I'd guess he might even hate kids, because one day they will grow up, while he won't.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Many were physically robust.
This seems to run counter to many of the medical articles I've read on the subject. Hmm.
quote:Anne Rice treated this as if the person grew up mentally despite maintaining her little girl body.
So far, that's how I've been treating my character. I want to know if there are medical reasons NOT to do so.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I would imagine there would be sexual development issues. If he never reaches puberty, he would never have the hormone levels that go hand in hand with sexual drive.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I wonder if his brain would maintain childlike plasticity. If so, he'd be extremely quick at picking up new skills. A very adaptable person. Depending on his situation, he might pick up and drop identities at will.
He'd need to be a very skilled manipulator of people to accomplish much.
I think that this would cause him to develop a certain amount of contempt and cynicism, both inwardly and outwardly directed. How much might vary over time. Where the majority of it is directed would depend on whether he's introverted or extroverted.
I imagine him being prone to silliness, and trips into the fantastical for escapist purposes, yet at the same time having very little "childlike wonder" for anything in the real world.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:So far, that's how I've been treating my character. I want to know if there are medical reasons NOT to do so.
I'm at work and can't look it up. But, my recolection is that the last of the popular Castratti were still active arround the turn of the Century. As a group they were not small or frail. Nor were they socially backward. (except for the sex part) Development of the vocal folds (and a tendenancy toward obesity, or is that just an opera singer trait?) was the most noticable physical characteristic.
If you need another reference group, there was a class of civil servants within the Ottoman empire, that were nutered as boys. I believe there were still some of them active at in the early 1900's. They were capable administrators and held positions of responsibility and influence in the government of pre-revolutionary Turkey.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
There is also a couple of episodes of Highlander where an immortal first "died" at the age of 12 and has been stuck that way for 800 years or so.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hmm, makes me wonder if his brain would continue to create new cells indefinitely. I don't know if that's something that puberty hormones affect or if it's a natural result of age.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I would imagine that this would be a very industious 10 year old. I can't imagine him worrying about relationships or anything sexual. This frees up a lot of time for other pursuits. In my (non-scientific) opinion wisdom comes with experience, not certain hormones, and so I would expect him to be quite wise.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Now, we're not talking about someone who didn't just get male sex hormones, right? We're talking about someone who never physically matured past the age of ten?
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I agree with Amanecer; there was a boy in my high school who hadn't reached puberty by graduation (I haven't seen him since so I don't know after that). He was enormously brilliant, as well as fun and friendly.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
I know that dogs who are neutered prepuberty tend to grow slightly bigger, because the long bones grow a little bit later. The growth spurt of puberty does not happen, but the growth period lasts a little longer. I'm not sure about bone density.
There are behavioral aspects noted, as well, primarily testosterone related.
Now, this is dogs, but there will be at least some human effects as well. There are studies done on "early spay/neuter" effects. I think they could be informative.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
::thinks Scott has the coolest ideas for stories ever::
Ni!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'd always heard/read that castrati were huge/obese. Think of how oxen become larger.
-o-
You probably don't want to read another author's take on this, but just in case, let me recommend OSC's "Goo Boy," which you can read online at the Frescoe Pictures website. I thought it was a great story.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
From what I understand of testosterone (admittedly very little) its decrease will generally lead to an increase in fat. However, if the kid just simply stopped aging at 10, you're in chartered territory and whatever you choose to do with it I don't think anyone can say, "That's wrong!"
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
You might consider picking up a developmental psychology textbook. I worked in a developmental neuropsychology lab last January (mostly babies, though) and children's brains are incredibly different from adults's. I don't think the brain stops changing until the mid-twenties, in fact... There may be some things that ten-year-old simply doesn't have the mental ability to understand. I know, for instance, that most children under 6 and almost all under 4 can't recognize that a tall thin glass has the same amount of water as a short fat glass - even when the water is poured from one glass to the other in front of their eyes, they will continue to insist that the tall glass has more water.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Tom:
The character in question has had his nervous system implanted inside a starship since he was 10 years old; his body is a construct controlled by the brain inside the starship.
Icarus:
I think the story you're thinking of is 'Dogwalker.' I love that story. Unfortunately, Goo Boy and my character aren't quite the same; Goo Boy's adolescence forming brain functions are gone, though he still has the body; my character has the brain but no body.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: The character in question has had his nervous system implanted inside a starship since he was 10 years old; his body is a construct controlled by the brain inside the starship.
That is SO COOL!
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
One of my greatest wishes is to be able to spend a day in a little kid's body (with my normal mind of course). That way, I could run around and do whatever the hell I wanted in public and people would just think it was cute, (not strange) and I could amaze everyone by how smart I was.
sorry, random comment...
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
This question is really complicated because at ten years old most people have very limited capacity for abstract reasoning, empathy, understanding long term consequences and many judgement issues. Its really unclear how much of this is the result of developmental biology and how much of it is just learning and experience. There is evidence to support that both are involved and you will need to decide which side to take.
So for example, does being stuck the a biologically 10 year old brain mean that he will continue to have difficulty dealing with long term consequences in decision making even with 100 years of experience? Will it mean that he still has to work at empathy, that he just can't quite grasp symbolic algebra, or will you assume that these are primarily learned so that a ten year old brain with 100 years of experience could be very adept in these areas.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: The character in question has had his nervous system implanted inside a starship since he was 10 years old; his body is a construct controlled by the brain inside the starship.
Have you read Anne McCaffrey's Ship Who Sang or other books of hers in the same universe? It sounds quite similar...
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I vaguely remember an episode of Dateline (about ten years old now) where a man never developed sexually--essentially never going through puberty. He grew to normal height, but never developed larger muscles, never grew pubic hair, and never had a voice change. They surgically changed something that allowed him to develop sexually in only like 2 weeks (very painful). It was fascinating because he was interviewed before and after the surgery, and he said how amazingly different he saw the world after surgery.
What struck me was how before the surgery, he had been in relationships, but felt nothing as far as sexual drive. After the surgery, he recounted how he started noticing women and their figures all at once, in an almost overwhelming way.
So, I think that the 10-year old who had lived 100 years would still have the "mind" of a ten-year old. The change that occurs during puberty really does change the mind of a child into an adult.
So, I think, even though he might be very wise, there would still be a certain mysticism about sex in his mind (like he just wouldn't get it).
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Scott, I don't know if this helps, but here are some thoughts: 1)I'm not sure if a ten year old is capable of consistent common sense and wisdom. 2)My ten year old is amazingly bright, but can suddenly lapse into a much younger frame of mind if he sees or hears something that excites him. Logic is a secondary stimulus to his physical senses. 3)I assume caused by #2, it is difficult for my ten year old to focus continually on a task that doesn't give positive and frequent feedback.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
What Artemisia said. We know a fair amount about castrati. There were also some odd changes to the overall physique.
Posted by Princesska (Member # 8954) on :
quote: I'd always heard/read that castrati were huge/obese. Think of how oxen become larger.
Actually, a lot of the castrati had decent figures. Have you seen a picture of Farinelli? (see this ) They had a higher bodyfat percentage than intact men, but it was often in the same way that women do. A softer body, but not neccessarily a heavier one. Also, they tended to be taller because their bones grew longer and thinner. If you read Anne Rice's "Cry to Heaven", most of her castrati look like the androgenous heroes from some anime.
Also, though castrati were not allowed to marry, they could sometimes, ahem, rise to the occasion. They were often sought by bored housewives precisely because no illegitamite children could result.
Just to clear that up there.
And how does this apply to a character stunted at age ten? Well, I'm female so maybe I developed faster, but when I was ten, I was just beginning to have dirty thoughts. And I know boys who had chest hair by age eight. But I suppose you're assuming that this character, by age ten, had not developed to that point?
I think a lot of the character's delayed development would depend on how and why he was retarded. Was it by force, the result of an accident, by his concent, or something more blurry? Examples of each... By force: the character was born the oldest son of a rich family and will inherit a vast fortune once he is a man, so a jealous relative retarded him to take the fortune instead. An accident: brain or chemical damage. By his concent: he had a medical condition that would be aggravated (and probably made fatal) by purberty, so his choices were dying young or never growing up.
He may still resent never growing up, but the cause of it will determine the shape his resentment takes.
Also, is your character practically immortal? Though he might die if shot directly, he doesn't seem prey to sickness and, of course, aging. That could make him feel kinda superior to everyone else.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata: You should do a check on "Castrati". Thise musicians were extant until fairly modern times. Other than the difference in vocal range, there were apparantly few differences with their peers. They were as successful as scholars, craftsmen and businesmen as other musicians of the time. Many were physically robust. In fact, the reason that the music written for them is not played as much today, is that most singers with the range do not have the power to properly interperet the music.
I don't know about that. Considering the size of the market for musicians today, (considering the population growth) boy choirs and male sopranos are more common than they used to be. Plus much has been learned in singing technique in the last few centuries. I would be surpised if you ahd any harder a time locating qualified singers now than ever before- and since there hasn't been a living castrato in nearly a century, who would know the difference? More likely the peices themselves simply went out of fashion, or were preserved with female parts substituted for the castratos by editors, so that the original orchestration is no longer used.
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
While it's not quite the same as your proposed storyline, Scott, I think it's definitely worth your while checking out 'The Confessions of Max Tivoli'. It's a great book about a boy who ages in the wrong direction on the outside. His mental development is normal, except for the strange situations he has to deal with given his condition.
Good luck with the story...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Hmm, makes me wonder if his brain would continue to create new cells indefinitely. I don't know if that's something that puberty hormones affect or if it's a natural result of age.
Pretty sure you stop growing new brain cells at about age 2.
quote:Originally posted by Jhai:
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: The character in question has had his nervous system implanted inside a starship since he was 10 years old; his body is a construct controlled by the brain inside the starship.
Have you read Anne McCaffrey's Ship Who Sang or other books of hers in the same universe? It sounds quite similar...
To me too. However, it wasn't original to her either, was it? And knowing Scott, his story will be very different than anything of McCaffrey's. Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
For McCaffrey's series, acquiring sexuality/sexual agency--and therefore equality, humanity and identity--was the enormous underlying theme, imo. But what do I know, I was going through puberty when I read them, guess what I remember most about the series? The sex.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
---joke ahead--- Sorry-----
One of the effects of being 10 years old for 94 years would be a crippling and life altering obsession with Hot Pockets and Pop Tarts. Eventually the subject would begin to believe that either of these foods was the terrestrial incarnation of God. Possible they would form a holy trinity with CapriSun.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: However, his brain has never been exposed to the chemicals produced during puberty-- in effect, he has remained 10 years old for about 92 years.
quote: The character in question has had his nervous system implanted inside a starship since he was 10 years old; his body is a construct controlled by the brain inside the starship.
Assuming his brain was sending some kind of feedback to his body to keep it in homeostasis, ie regulating his body as if it were actually inside it, why *wouldn't* his body have gone through puberty? Hormones must be present and being adjusted by the various structures in his brain if his body is still biological?
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I just skimmed the last part of the thread, but it doesn't seem that anyone mentioned Ansset of Songmaster, by OSC. He was chemically castrated, basically.
I think such a character might become easily emotionally attached to others, either in a needy way or in a selfless, caring way, depending on individual personality. He (I'm assuming male here) would likely also tend toward a more androgynous mentality which would be mitigated by the degree to which he was socially molded to be more specifically "masculine" (whatever that means within the society in which he was raised).
I'd also think that he might be someone who loved more deeply based on mind and personality rather than sexual attraction (again, depending on how independant of social pressures his personality allowed him to be).
The question is fascinating, and I think there is enough range of credible possibilities to go in many completely different directions. You could have a plausible person who was sexually ambiguous, (and ambivalent), but a caring, strong leader who was undistracted by sexual urges; or you could have a needy, attention seeking, socio-path who didn't understand many basic motivations of those around him.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I've never been a McCaffrey fan; I stopped at the third chapter of the first Pern book and really haven't looked at anything else.
While I've never read anything like this (OSC's Jane is about close as it gets), I'm aware that the concept isn't original. I'm not too worried about it...
quote:Assuming his brain was sending some kind of feedback to his body to keep it in homeostasis, ie regulating his body as if it were actually inside it, why *wouldn't* his body have gone through puberty?
His body is a machine. He was given this body when he was 10 to aid him in making more normal human relationships. His own flesh-and-blood body was destroyed by a debilitating disease. The plan was to give him a new body every so often, as he aged. Unfortunately,new bodies are as expensive as starships, and he hasn't been able to get one.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Ah, well, o.k., then. Sorry if I missed that.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Well, I haven't actually been very clear...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: is your character practically immortal?
Yes.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
bump
I've been thinking about this one a lot lately, and it's just a fascinating question.
I still think the 10-year old brain, despite having 90 years of life experience, would "behave" like a 10-year old would. Certain aspects of adult human life would just seem foreign or beyond him, despite their prevalence in society. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't be able to achieve a mature or intellectual mindset (like Ender).
But he would also never feel the fear of aging/dying. I can't imagine what that would feel like. Also, with his bio-mech android body, would he be able to "feel" chemically induced pains/pleasures?
Anyway, I can't wait to read the comic.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
This thread has reminded me of two movies. "Flight of the Navigator" and...uhh...one with Robin Williams...that I can't remember the name of.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
He can feel pain. He also knows that he can die, if his brain is destroyed.
quote: "Flight of the Navigator" and...uhh...one with Robin Williams...that I can't remember the name of.
Bi-centennial man? I haven't seen it.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
I think you might be thinking of 'Jack' the Francis Ford Coppola film?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
In Mork and Mindy, Orkans aged in reverse, so babies looked old, and old people looked like children.
I think you should try to have Mork in at least one scene. He was an alien. Maybe just an egg shaped space ship. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
MC-- hmm....
A psychologist friend of mine mentioned something interesting I'll have to look into. He said that there are some chimical things that happen within the brain during puberty that affect the way males handle speech. In short, puberty makes new languages harder to learn, but easier to express. So while the character may be a linguistic champion, he may not be able to communicate his feelings very well at all.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Ray Bradbury wrote a wonderful short story about a 10 year old who couldn't grow up. He would spend a few years with some childless couple in some small town, going through the same three grades, meeting kids and playing the same games until his lack of growth began to get noticed. He would then leave and find his way to another town, where some loving but childless couple would take him in.
It was very sweet and sad and innocent. There were no pedophiles or dangers this small man could not overcome.
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