A few weeks ago, I found an abandoned USB drive in a parking lot and finally got it cleaned up and working today. Intending to return it to its original owner, I poked around the files on the system and, in the course of tracking down his name and address, also stumbled across a suicide note, a will, and a scathing letter from what appears to be his ex-live-in girlfriend. He's a little older than I am, and according to his resume has been trapped as a "control room operator" in the UNIX world for almost 20 years, tending to a dwindling number of backup tapes and "mission critical" procedures that could, in reality, probably be tended by Homer Simpson's drinky-bird. He also really, really likes Marvel comics, can't write a coherent sentence to save his life, and apparently plays middling bass guitar.
I feel for this guy, and he lives three blocks away. I'm dropping the drive at his place tomorrow night; is there a tactful way to mention, when I do so, that I'd be willing to take him out drinking or something? Is that even something that I SHOULD do?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: A few weeks ago, I found an abandoned USB drive in a parking lot and finally got it cleaned up and working today. Intending to return it to its original owner, I poked around the files on the system and, in the course of tracking down his name and address, also stumbled across a suicide note, a will, and a scathing letter from what appears to be his ex-live-in girlfriend. He's a little older than I am, and according to his resume has been trapped as a "control room operator" in the UNIX world for almost 20 years, tending to a dwindling number of backup tapes and "mission critical" procedures that could, in reality, probably be tended by Homer Simpson's drinky-bird. He also really, really likes Marvel comics, can't write a coherent sentence to save his life, and apparently plays middling bass guitar.
I feel for this guy, and he lives three blocks away. I'm dropping the drive at his place tomorrow night; is there a tactful way to mention, when I do so, that I'd be willing to take him out drinking or something? Is that even something that I SHOULD do?
Thats an interesting question. I keep alternating within a few seconds of thinking, which indicates I need to think about it alittle bit more. Ill get back to you Tom, I am impressed you would consider taking him out.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
We've never met, Tom, but from what I understand you're generally a pretty skilled conversationalist. If I were you I'd just strike up a conversation about something or other when you give the drive back to him, and angle things around to asking him to do something.
Keep in mind that if he's terribly lonely he may latch onto you tightly, though. I've had that happen a few times too many in circumstances where I was acting from the same motivation that you will be if you do this.
[ September 14, 2006, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Oh man, tough call. I think you're going to have to read the situation when you meet the guy. My personal inclination would be not to bring up any of the sensitive info unless he comes right out and asks if you read it, which would probably be a blatant plea for help. Your style may be different. But maybe telling him you read the resume could be a natural conversation starter that could lead to you offering to buy him a drink?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
My concern is how you would go about explaining to this guy why you're taking him out or whatever without revealing just what you found on that drive. His knowing that you know might push him further over the edge.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
And Noemon brings up an excellent point about the latching on. The fact that I didn't think of it just goes to show that I'm a slow learner, because I've certainly been there, done that often enough.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm actually half-tempted to ask one of my coworkers -- who's also lived here in town, and is in this guy's age bracket, and who occupies the same dead-end position in our organization that this guy does in his, and who ALSO played in a band in the '80s, and who also enjoys Marvel comics -- if he knows the guy; Oregon's a relatively small community, and it was even smaller 30 years ago. If he does, and if they don't loathe each other, he might have a better pretext for hanging out with him.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
I'd guess that the guy will figure out that you had to have read it, otherwise you'd never have known it belonged to him in the first place. He might not know immediately when you return it to him (if he doesn't remember exactly what's on the drive), but he'll know as soon as he looks at it.
I definitely wouldn't mention or allude to the note in any way, unless he brings it up. If I were in your place, I would probably make friendly overtures and, depending on how they were received, make plans to hang out or just give him my contact info if he's reluctant.
That sort of situation is completely outside my realm of experience, though, so I don't really have any other advice. Good luck.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I'll be honest, Tom. I think you should leave it at the door and go home. It's really cool that you want to help but I just have a bad feeling that you might be biting off more than you can chew. If he asks if you saw what was on it, could you lie? Could you strike up a friendship with this and pretend you know nothing about him? I would be mortified I knew someone had read something so personal.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Tom,
I like the idea of asking someone who might know him. You have the option of returning the drive anonymously if what you hear causes you too much concern.
My initial reaction was "the guy might turn into a barnacle." That concern would probably color my dealings with him to the point where I wouldn't be comfortable doing much talking. I find that to be a sad observation about myself, really. I hope the guy turns out to be a nice person.
I just have to say, also, that saving & carrying around drafts of a suicide note, and a letter from an ex-girlfriend doesn't paint a picture of welcoming human interaction. I hope I'm wrong. I would've been very tempted to check the creation dates on those files (although maybe because they're on a USB drive, the date of creation might be the date they were copied over to the drive).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't know the best way to go about doing it, but trying to help him seems like a worthwhile thing to do.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
A pity date?
Can you fix him by going out for a beer with him? Can you fix him by being his friend? Do you like him, or are you (do you think) disposed to liking him?
See, I think it could be fantastic to be a friend somebody can lean on, but I don't think that can be faked--at least, not for terribly long.
I have helped legitimate friends through really rough times, and I have leaned on my friends and been helped by them as well. I have not had too much success befriending a sad person out of pity though (and I have tried it).
I hate to say it, because I know what a hassle it would be for this guy, but if you found a suicide note, you seem to have reason to believe he could go through with it. How long has it been since the file was created? Since it was edited? (Is it possible to find out?) I think you should seriously think about whether or not he is a threat to himself. It sounds like he might be, in which case I think you may need to share that knowledge with someone in a position to help him.
Posted by Dasa (Member # 8968) on :
Are you sure that he misplaced the USB drive and *wants* it to be returned?
Maybe he wanted to get over the whole thing and abandoned the USB drive as a step?
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
If the resume had a title like "Resume" then I think it's perfectly reasonable that you might have just found and opened that doc to locate him. If they all have numbers or weird names, well . . . who knows.
As for the other thing - I dunno, too sleepy. Will think on it.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I don't know the best way to go about doing it, but trying to help him seems like a worthwhile thing to do.
Seconded. You get props in my book for even attempting to do something. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle something like this myself.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Tom,
I just wanted to say I'm very impressed by your willingneses to reach out to this hurting guy. The fact that you are putting your concern for him above your own concern for yourself, is outstanding character on your part.
As someone else said, you are very skilled at talking to people. I hope once you meet him and get him in a conversation, you will have a clearer picture in your head on how to proceed from there. But I think it is great that you are willing to do this.
I know I would want to reach out to a person such as that. There are so many hurting people in the world, and sometimes all they need is someone who listens and cares.
FG
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dasa: Are you sure that he misplaced the USB drive and *wants* it to be returned?
Maybe he wanted to get over the whole thing and abandoned the USB drive as a step?
And I had just the opposite thought . . . that maybe he "lost" it as a cry for help, figuring that someone would read that stuff. But who knows.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: maybe he "lost" it as a cry for help, figuring that someone would read that stuff. But who knows.
Or if you REALLY want to stretch the probabilities -- maybe he purposefully "lost" it as a psychological experiment on his part for some college course or something, and he watched Tom pick it up and is waiting to see what happens!
If this were the case, you have my permission to deck him!
FG
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'd definitely ask the co-worker never hurts to do research. However if the guy (provided he's still alive... you haven't checked the obits have you?) would become a barnacle, I suspect Tom is better equipped to deal with that sort of a problem than the majority of the worlds population.
AJ
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
The thing I would be worried about is if he "lost" the drive as a way to deliver his suicide note and has already gone through with it.
-pH
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Me, too, a bit. It seems a bit like a technologically enhanced message in a bottle.
Or maybe he just lost it. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
To be perfectly honest, I think you've violated this man's privacy enough. I don't rightly understand why you didn't just post "Lost USB Drive" signs in your neighborhood or why you felt compelled to read so many of his files. Couldn't you have tried looking up his address in the Yellow Pages once you discovered his name?
Andrew sometimes carries his USB drive in his pocket when he takes the laptop to the library. I'm going to make sure that he doesn't have any personal documents on it. Incidentally, Andrew (an ethicist and lawyer) thinks that you should call the police about the suicide note and leave it at that. He also thinks that you should probably not go to this man's house or place of work, but meet him in a public place.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I'd mail it to him anonymously, with a note tucked in saying I found it and, in trying to locate the owner, opened the file called "Resume". I'd apologise for violating his privacy by opening the resume file. I'd be uncomfortable wading through his personal stuff, and even more uncomfortable meeting him face to face and admitting to wading through his personal stuff.
Were I in his situation, I would be mortified at the thought of anyone reading such personal things. I would be much more comfortable receiving it anonymously and wondering if someone out there knew my most innermost thoughts than knowing for sure that someone out there knows my most innermost thoughts (and now wants to hang out with me). I think I would be too embarrassed to want to hang out with someone who waded through my files.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Yeah, if I were him, and you came and knocked on the door and told me you'd read the files, I'd probably say something very very unpleasant and slam the door in your face.
I agree with others that it is a very generous perspective that you have taken on this, and you are obviously kind hearted enough to want to help, but there isn't much you can do, and probably not much he wants you to do. I'm on the return it anonymously bandwagon.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I amazed at the variance of perspectives and responses.
Would love to know how it eventually goes down, Tom.
FG
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Tom, I will be honest. When I read your post, I thought, "What a great idea for a novel!" I mean, people make that kind of stuff up, and you had it dropped in your lap. I do not mean to trivialize this at all, I just think it would make a great story. Well, it is a great story already. (but not for the guy)
Posted by citadel (Member # 8367) on :
I think you should send it back to anonymously with a note explaining things a bit and give an email address where you can be reached if he ever wants to talk. This would be less embarrassing for him.
If you were in his shoes, what would you want the finder of the drive to do?
Please let us know what happens!
I think your desire to help another human is a very good and Christian thing to do. Just be careful.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I think your desire to help another human is a very good and Christian thing to do.
*wince*
Posted by citadel (Member # 8367) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:I think your desire to help another human is a very good and Christian thing to do.
*wince*
Why the wince?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Perhaps you should read some of Tom's old posts. If you click on somebody's post count it will take you to their past 50 posts. Tom is a very vocal atheist.
Posted by citadel (Member # 8367) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Perhaps you should read some of Tom's old posts. If you click on somebody's post count it will take you to their past 50 posts. Tom is a very vocal atheist.
Yes I can see that he is. I was merely observing that his desire to do what I would call a "Good Samritan" act was something that is inline with the teachings of Jesus Christ and hence a Christian thing to do. I am a Christian and such an observation is normal for me to make. I am not trying to tell him he's religious or anything. Just making an observation. No offense was intended.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Well the other thing you're doing is assigning such actions and motivations to christians only. As if non-religious people don't normally do such things, yet christian people do.
I know that's not what you were trying to say, but that's kinda how it reads.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I let that pass unmentioned precisely because I knew the spirit in which it was meant, and appreciated the compliment even if I think it's largely undeserved. (I don't think that simply worrying about a fellow human's possible suicidal tendencies is really all that nice of me; I'd consider it pretty much the bare minimum of decency.)
I don't mind being called a "Christian" in that context, any more than I'd imagine that, say, a man from Norway would mind being called a Samaritan. It's a shame that the word "atheist" doesn't carry with it the same positive connotations in our society, so that telling someone "that's very atheist of you" is as meaningful a compliment, but that's at least partly the fault of atheists who, lacking a common belief in divinity, don't necessarily recognize the necessity of a belief in humanity.
So thanks. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
What about "humanist"?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
That's awfully white of you.
::runs away::
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Personally I'd have a hard time trying to strike up a conversation with the guy without it being painfully obvious that I'd read his personal documnets.
Given that, I'd shy away from trying. I'd leave it at his house, but I'd also consider alerting the police to the situation.
Something else to consider, seeing as how you've poked your nose into his business already, why not take it a step further. Is there an address or email address anywhere in there of a family member you could contact? Maybe you can't be his friend directly, but perhaps you could get other involved who are more connected to him.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote: (I don't think that simply worrying about a fellow human's possible suicidal tendencies is really all that nice of me; I'd consider it pretty much the bare minimum of decency.)
I think you're being too modest here. You're not just worrying about his suicidal tendencies, you're considering helping him out by going out of your way and being a friend to someone you never met and may not even like.
I'm interested in how this turns out. I think you should first drop it off to him, and if he's very thankful about it and happy, talk to him a little more.
"Were I in his situation, I would be mortified at the thought of anyone reading such personal things."
I think the difference is, you're not a lonely suicidal person (well, as far as I know). Someone in his position could really appreciate a random stranger offering him friendship and it could mean the world to him that someone actually cares about him.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
Perhaps you should return it anonymously, and then seek out a separate opportunity to talk to him. It's not hard to come up a pretext to strike up a conversation with someone. Guys do it all the time with girls (and vice versa, I suppose)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think the difference is, you're not a lonely suicidal person (well, as far as I know). Someone in his position could really appreciate a random stranger offering him friendship and it could mean the world to him that someone actually cares about him.
I agree. During the times that I have been depressed enough to consider such things, I think I would have greatly appreciated somebody reaching out and trying to help me.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Why do people suggest calling the police about a suicide note? Suicide is not illegal; what are the police going to do?
Incidentally, to avoid the controversy about calling atheists Christian, the obvious solution is to say "that's very Buddhist of you" when someone does something kind.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Actually, suicide is illegal in most of the US, unless the laws have changed.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
It's illegal -- which then means the poor family members or friends or passersby or whoever that find the remains (usually in appalling condition) receive no services for trauma as provided by the states through federal funding for say, homicide.
Tom -- I'm with Mrs. M on this one. Send it back anonymously.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Would those of you who're advocating complete anonymity explain why? I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale behind that suggestion.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
This is a tough call.
On the one hand, the possibilities for him latching on are great. This brings up the risk of you becoming his "only friend" - which puts immense pressure on you not to end that relationship, because (knowing his mental state) it may "put him over the edge."
On the other hand, this guy is falling through the cracks of society and really needs someone to show him that there are people in the world that do in fact care whether he is in it or not, and are willing to go out of their way to help him. It seems like he needs a reason to live, and knowing that the world isn't an indifferent, uncaring place might help that.
I definitely advocate bringing it back and at least making some contact. A smile, some friendly banter about how important your own USB drive is to you, that you hope it wasn't too much of an inconvenience to have lost it for so long, etc.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to invite him out for a drink or anything, but just showing that there's a human being out there who thinks he's worth talking to, and who is kind enough to help him out with something as small as a lost USB, is significant I think. Especially seeing as many people would just have wiped the memory and used it for themselves - which would fall into his "no one cares" or "the world is harsh and indifferent" feelings.
Asking around to see if people know him is a good idea, too. Though, I'm of two minds of sending them in to be the emissary of friendship, because of the same risks you yourself would want to avoid.
It's a tough call, but it's a testament to the kind of person you are that you want to help and are just trying to figure out the best way. Good luck.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
For those who think Tom should have posted "Lost USB Drive" signs, if you found a wallet, would you post "Lost Wallet" signs, or would you open it up and try to find out who it belonged to? I don't see this as any different. Same with a phone, pager, PDA, or anything else that's likely to have personal information in it.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Actually, I never suggested sending it back anonymously. I assumed from your first post that you'd already spoken to him on the phone. I think (after discussing it with Andrew) you should meet him at a public place and report his note to the police or social services. The reason I don't think you should reach out to him the way is that (as far as I know) you are not a counselor, social worker, psychiatrist, etc. and therefore not professionally trained in the best ways to deal with a truly suicidal person. For all you know, you could be the one to push him over the edge.
And I, personally, would be devastated if someone read my will and other deeply personal correspondence. I'd rather someone destroy my USB drive than read my personal information.
ElJay, as I see it, the difference is that you don't keep your will or personal papers in your wallet. There's a big difference between your driver's license and your diary.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You don't have any way of knowing what someone's keeping in their wallet without opening it.
Opening the drive (and wallet, in that example) is by far the quickest, easiest, and most efficient way to get it back to its' rightful owner. If I lost either, I'd want it back ASAP.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think you should return the drive, in person, to the guy. Call ahead to make sure he's there.
When you hand him the drive, make a bit of happy conversation but don't give out any personal information that then ties you to him.
I think that if I had lost a drive and was feeling bad in general, the fact that someone came over to return it (happy feeling number one), stopped to chat for a few minutes (happy feeling number two), and was a total random stranger who had no real obligation to do so (happy feeling number three), would brighten my day considerably.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
"The Straight Dope" on suicide and illegality (By Cecil Adams -- has US stuff at the bottom. Basically, only 6 states as of 1963 had it on the books, and the law was not prosecuted anyway.)
I'd have opened it and checked to see what was there to identify the owner as a matter of course. I had assumed (naively?) that most stuff on carry-around UBCs would be work files, as that is what everyone I know uses the portability for anyway. I'd argue that if you carry it around where you can lose it (and where other people have been known to lose things, like keys and purses and whatnot), you accept at least some responsibility for losing it. You took the risk. Not that I'd be all in-your-face with this guy about it -- of course! -- but I wouldn't feel like a snooping thief just for having opened a personal file, especially if it was ambiguously titled.
On the other hand, having someone confront (or mention, or in any way acknowledge) my deepest distresses in the throes of depression could well have pushed me over into total despair. My issues took the mental form of being a burden on the world, and knowing that I was being visibly burdensome to yet one more person would have been agonizing. I tried to hide it as best I could, day in and day out. (Mind you, I wasn't carrying around suicide notes in my back pocket, either.)
I don't say that to discourage anyone from talking to a distressed person, but more to raise the idea that -- at least for some people in certain circumstances -- this is not an unequivocably Good Thing. Like Mrs. M, I'd feel more comfortable having a trained professional get involved (e.g., through a local free/sliding-scale mental health center) if it was a stranger who I didn't know well at all. Another alternative is to call a local or national suicide hotline and speak to someone who is trained there on how to best deal with this situation.*
[Bolding was added for emphasis later. -CT]
[ September 18, 2006, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Plenty of people keep very personal things in their wallets, such as condensed medical histories, condoms, love letters. Personally, I wouldn't keep my will on a USB drive that I carried around with me, either, and I would generally expect the things found on a USB drive to be less personal that the things found in a wallet. Generally, I would expect them to be used for work documents a person had brought home to work on, photos they were taking to share with someone, school papers, or writings in progress. I think Tom stumbling across a will and a suicide note is just as unlikely as stumbling across them in a purse or briefcase, and his checking the USB drive was no more an invasion of privacy than checking one of those would be.
It's unfortunate, of course, that he found what he did, and I agree that Tom's not trained to deal with the situation. But I've called the police about a suicidal statement before, in the course of my job. The police sent someone out to check on the person. As the person answered the door and said they were fine, and did not seem to be an immediate danger to themselves, the police left. Unless they have probable cause to believe that the person is an immediate danger to themselves, that's all they can do. They don't check back. They don't refer them for counseling. They can't.
The person in question, of course, was furious with me and my company. Which is fine, I did what I was legally required to do, and since I was acting as a representative of my company when I was made aware of the situation I didn't have a choice. In Tom's situation, I'm not sure what I would do. I think I would meet the person first, although I would do it in a public place ("Hey, I found your USB drive, want to meet for coffee Wednesday after work so I can give it back to you?") and try to get a feel for how the person's doing. If they've gone so far as to write a suicide note and put it on a drive, it would suggest that they're in pretty bad shape. But I can't help but think that a friendly ear would do them more good than a visit from the police.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Would those of you who're advocating complete anonymity explain why? I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale behind that suggestion.
This might be in part because you are such an extrovert. (I'm not sure, but I think so.) Being with other people tends to energize you. Being with other people when one is an introvert can be overwhelmingly draining, and it may not be helpful to someone at the end of his or her rope. In that case, staying anonymous can be a kindness, as he doesn't have to manage the awkwardness of the situation.
Not sure if this is what others are thinking, but I was thinking "Oh, how wonderful it would be just to get the USB back with nobody to thank, and figure out how to thank, and then watch his eyes and voice and stance to see if he read it (eek!), and then have to get him off the doorstop without being rude when he was already so nice and I owe him and I owe everybody and I just can't get anything right and I'll probably mess up his life and make him mad and and and ..."
But then again, I'm not nominating myself for any social prizes. *grin
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:But I can't help but think that a friendly ear would do them more good than a visit from the police.
My post took the 49th position on the last page, so it's fallen into the well of non-existance, but I agree.
I wouldn't mention anything on the drive though. "So, I was reading your will..." I can't believe that would help.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
CT, you put all of that really well. Those two posts summed up all my feelings about the risk the guy took putting that stuff on his thumb drive and the most considerate way to handle returning it.
Quite frankly, I would probably leave the thing somewhere where he could just find it, like that's where it had been all along, thus relieving him of the burden of worrying about what got read and/or how to deal with all the gratitude/what does this guy know about me/social issues.
If I was still worried about him and wanted to help, I could try to figure out some context to do that which was independent of the drive (like the possible mutual aquaintance).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
As an introvert myself, I disagree. As I said on the previous page, during the times where I was depressed enough to contemplate suicide, I think I would have appreciated somebody reaching out.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tom, have you done anything?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In terms of Tom's giving it back but not mentioning to the guy that he'd opened the contents, the Last Accessed date on the files will indicate that they were read by *someone* if the guy bothers to look at them (which I would do, were I in his place). Worth keeping in mind.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I've done nothing yet, because the coworker in question has been out sick since Friday. I figured I'd hold off until I ran it by him, at the very least.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:In fact, if I had nothing irreplaceable in the drive I would have preferred that it never be returned rather than have a social interaction to get it back.
That's not introversion. That's social dysfunction.
I'm being completely serious about this. If there are people here who really feel this way, you should consider seeking professional help.
Posted by Dasa (Member # 8968) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: As an introvert myself, I disagree. As I said on the previous page, during the times where I was depressed enough to contemplate suicide, I think I would have appreciated somebody reaching out.
That is very true. Depression does change the equation.
I guess if I ever get depressed, especially suicidally so, I too would prefer to have people reaching out. My earlier statement would apply only to my "normal" days.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
MrSquicky, I'll go on record as stating that I think the described situation could be normal variation in human introversion, a situation of social dysfunction, or some blend of the two (e.g., strong introversion overlaid with depression). That is, I'd say you advance one possible tenable assessment, but I don't think it's the only one.
Nothing in my clinical training or experience leads me to think otherwise (i.e., that this is more clear-cut), but I would be happy to just amicably disagree on this point. I just wanted another opinion out there on the table. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
He could be keeping the suicide note on the drive as a sort of reminder of how bad things had been at one point a long time ago. A sort of magic charm to keep things from ever being that bad again.
That sounds like something I would do.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
CT, I'll bow to you superior experience and training. I'm not a trained clinician.
I want to emphasize, though, that this could be an indication of a potential problem that there people out there set up specifically to help you deal with.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
One major problem with introversion and depression (as I see it) is that being around other people seems to be one of those things which do help, at least for many. (Others include sunlight, excercise, regular sleeping habits, etc.) However, this isn't a blanket recommendation -- while being around others in certain ways may be helpful, it may not be helpful if the experience is of a different sort. I suspect (though I can't say with certainty) that anxiety-diminishing interactions are helpful in general, but that anxiety-provoking interactions may well be harmful, in general.
I'd consider anxiety-diminishing interactions to be things like parallel play (e.g., sitting in a cafe with other people while you all do your own thing: write, read the paper, etc) and structured/predictable social encounters (e.g., "Hello. Yes, it is a nice day, isn't it? We had so much rain this month. Well, hope your day goes smoothly.").
I'd consider an interaction where a participant feels he or she has to explain him/herself about an emotionally-laden and self-challenging topic to be generally anxiety-producing, as it is unpredictable as well as of distressing content.
But there is room for variation in this, in personality type as well as experience. I am certain that there are many people on this board (and elsewhere) who would not find the same interactions anxiety-producing as I do. That's great! But I do think some would, and given that we are caring and gentle folk, I think that's worth a moment of reflection before making decisions in troublesome times.
[Edited to add: Which is why I do love the title of this thread. I think it speaks well of Tom's thoughtfulness.]
(And now I'll bow out for a bit, not for reasons of anxiety, but merely the call of work and life. *smile)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: CT, I'll bow to you superior experience and training. I'm not a trained clinician.
And do recall that I am, and have been, many kinds of a fool in both my personal and professional life. *grin Grain of salt comes provided.
quote:I want to emphasize, though, that this could be an indication of a potential problem that there people out there set up specifically to help you deal with.
Oh, for sure! No doubt about it, it's worth a second thought.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:As an introvert myself, I disagree.
I agree with m_p_h. I'm also an introvert; I need a lot of time by myself. However, I also need (and love) people. If I'm feeling sad, I might want to be alone but if someone came and visited and gave me back something I had lost, I would feel immensely grateful.
Said person is not asking me to go to loud raucous parties, they're just saying "hi". And that's nice.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Also, don't assume that just because a depressed or introverted person doesn't accept the gesture when somebody reaches out that it didn't do any good. Just knowing that somebody tried to reach out, even if I shot them down, is a good thing.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I'd consider an interaction where a participant feels he or she has to explain him/herself about an emotionally-laden and self-challenging topic to be generally anxiety-producing, as it is unpredictable as well as of distressing content.
I should emphasize that this is not what I was talking about, but I can see where this might be people parse the situation. I was reacting to the idea that a person would rather lose something like a USB drive than go into a situation where someone comes up to you and say "Hey, I found this USB drive and I think it's yours."
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Also, don't assume that just because a depressed or introverted person doesn't accept the gesture when somebody reaches out that it didn't do any good. Just knowing that somebody tried to reach out, even if I shot them down, is a good thing.
Yes.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Last aside: It's worth noting, too, that introversion and extroversion seem to be qualities on a more-or-less continuous scale, as opposed to either/or characteristics. I suspect that there are people in the fair to middlin' range of either.
I know that my natural tendencies tend to place me at a more extreme end of introversion, making Caring for Your Introvert a breath-takingly refreshing read. I have trouble imagining getting charged up by interacting with people, even though I do like it, as opposed to something like sitting on a rock and staring at the horizon, musing quietly for hours as the sun passes across the sky. (Yum, yum! Vrrroooooom!) However, I know that I suffer when I am not with my friends, and I have been lucky to have found some that are particularly generous about dealing with quirks and eccentricities. And, too, I've developed strategies to learn how to recharge while going through people-packed days. Still, I'm sure I don't "get" much about how life works for a great multitude of people on this planet, and that in itself is kind of sad.
Life is pretty harsh.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I was reacting to the idea that a person would rather lose something like a USB drive than go into a situation where someone comes up to you and say "Hey, I found this USB drive and I think it's yours."
Yeah, but for me, knowing what was on the drive [the drive in question; i.e., suicide note, Dear John letter, formal will, etc.] and that this person must have seen some of it in order to identify me -- that would be really stressful. If I didn't already have my little social sea legs under me, I'd probably start blurting out explanations, turn crimson, and work myself up into a little fit.
I think it would be excruciatingly painful for all involved.
Whew. Reminds me never to put anything personal on my jumpdrive.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Here's the thing - none of us know this person, so we can't know what his preferences are. I think it would be best to let the proper authorities handle this.
Why not call a suicide hotline and ask them for advice? They're toll free and maybe they can give you some guidance.
BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
Really? Hrm. If I can't trust myself to do the right thing, why should I trust the police?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Here's the thing - none of us know this person, so we can't know what his preferences are. I think it would be best to let the proper authorities handle this.
Why would it be preferable to have an authority read your personal stuff than a non-authorized stranger?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:BTW, I would never open a wallet, purse, briefcase, USB drive, etc. that I found on the ground. I would turn it into the nearest police station and let them know where I found it.
Huh. I would consider that, in most cases, a waste of the police's time. Plus in this case the person would probably never get the drive back, although you said you would consider that preferable. He indicated it took some work on his part to get it working again, I'd guess that most police departments are busy enough that they wouldn't bother with it and just toss it into unclaimed property, to be auctioned off to the highest bidder next time a police auction came around. Then who knows who ends up with it?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Tom,
You said that you found an address and name in the drive. Did you also find a phone number? It might be a less invasive and safer (for you) option to call the guy and ask him if he wants the drive back. Depending on how the conversation goes, you could decide what other actions you may want to take.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Last aside: It's worth noting, too, that introversion and extroversion seem to be qualities on a more-or-less continuous scale, as opposed to either/or characteristics. I suspect that there are people in the fair to middlin' range of either.
I know that my natural tendencies tend to place me at a more extreme end of introversion, making Caring for Your Introvert a breath-takingly refreshing read. I have trouble imagining getting charged up by interacting with people, even though I do like it, as opposed to something like sitting on a rock and staring at the horizon, musing quietly for hours as the sun passes across the sky. (Yum, yum! Vrrroooooom!) However, I know that I suffer when I am not with my friends, and I have been lucky to have found some that are particularly generous about dealing with quirks and eccentricities. And, too, I've developed strategies to learn how to recharge while going through people-packed days. Still, I'm sure I don't "get" much about how life works for a great multitude of people on this planet, and that in itself is kind of sad.
Life is pretty harsh.
I have had this article bookmarked for a long time. Refreshing indeed!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think colling the police about the suicide note would be a terrible idea. I think the person would feel his privacy even more violated by police at the door than by an ordinary guy.
And as for him latching on...is it better for him not to latch on and possibly carry out suicidal notions, or latch on and be alive? I mean, yeah, it's REALLY inconvenient to have someone cling to you like a barnacle. I know from experience. But at the same time, it might create more time for others to get help for the guy, or for him to decide to get help on his own.
I still worry that he's already gone through with his plan. And I think the longer you wait, the more likely that is. I keep thinking of that story about some kid who got picked on all the time at school, and one day an older boy helped him carry his books home...and that just HAPPENED to be the day that the younger boy had planned on killing himself as soon as he got to his house, but he decided not to because someone showed him kindness in that moment.
-pH
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I've been discussing this with Andrew and his first questions were:
1. If this guy is really suicidal, why is [TomDavidson] talking about it on an internet forum? Shouldn't he be doing something immediately?
2. How is [TomDavidson] qualified to help someone who is suicidal?
3. Why hasn't he turned it into the police?
The police have departments that deal with lost/stolen property. If I had lost my USB drive, that's the first place I would go. If I found a USB drive, that's where I would take it. I would also probably then make posters saying that I found a USB drive and turned it into the police.
I would also report a suicide note to the police and possibly call Social Services. I know that I am not qualified to deal with a suicidal person and they are. I wouldn't want to risk harming this person.
I just don't understand why you feel that your best or only choice is to return this drive yourself. Why not call a suicide hotline or even a mental hospital? Why not call the police station and explain the situation? There are trained people who can give you guidance.
And, yes, I would rather the police be in possession of my personal property than a civilian stranger.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And, yes, I would rather the police be in possession of my personal property than a civilian stranger.
Why?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I have personally returned many things that have ID attached. This includes everything from wallets to dogs. I've also had many things returned to me. I've never felt anything but gratitude in either the giving or the receiving.
The police take longer and are required to follow-up on anything illegal. I'd rather be a good samaritan than a snitch. Who knows whether this guy wrote this in a moment of incontrolled emotion or as a serious attempt at suicide?
FWIW, I agree with pH. If the guy is serious about the suicide, it has probably already happened. If he is not serious about it, then why push him over the edge by getting the authorities involved and having a suicide threat put on his record.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
When was the file created, Tom? I know that the date probably just reflects when it was put on the thumb drive, but still, if it has a creation date of 6 months ago I think we can rule out the idea that he's poised on the brink of doing himself in.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
He's alive, as of yesterday, and I've spoken to him over the phone and will return the drive when I get the chance. The letter in question, though, was "created" only last month, which would have been a week or two before I found it.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I've said my piece, so let's leave it at that. I would like to suggest that if you truly believe this person to be depressed, don't give him alcohol, which will makes depression worse.
mph - I trust police to do the right thing and help me if I'm in danger. I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion. I can't say that about strangers.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:mph - I trust police to do the right thing and help me if I'm in danger. I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion. I can't say that about strangers.
Does not compute.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Maybe it depends on how corrupt or efficient/inefficient one is accustomed to the local police force being.
I know Tom grew up in a location where a lost USB would be at the bottom of anyone's priority list and a cop pocketing it would be the expectation not the exception, unfortunately. Not to mention he'd have been discriminated against for his race also.
Now Tom's current location probably doesn't have that same level of corruption, and has considerably more municipal concern. However if one is accustomed to the one end of the spectrum, you must take personal responsibility because the police are going to be basically worse than useless.
AJ
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Tom grew up in Gary?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Would those of you who're advocating complete anonymity explain why? I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale behind that suggestion.
To let the guy save face, save embarrassment. I'd feel violated if someone had gone through my files, especially things as personal as you described. I would not appreciate the person who made me feel that way coming by to hang out.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yes Breyerchic he did. (I'm pretty sure he did)
AJ
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Now it's been addressed, I can't delete it. I didn't mean to post that, or if I knew it went through I would have deleted it immeadiatly.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'd be worried about any authorities overreacting because they have to cover their butts. I sometimes get the impression that the mental health professionals here do the same thing, which is why I wouldn't ever admit to suicidal feelings. It's a shame, because I do have some OCD-type feelings where I worry that I might hurt myself but don't actually want to. I'd like to discuss them, but I don't need the counselor freaking out that I might hurt myself.
Unless you're pretty sure that something is about to happen, I would not get the authorities involved. I think calling the suicide hotline and asking for advice would be the best route to go.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck, Tom.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I agree with m_p_h. I'm also an introvert; I need a lot of time by myself. However, I also need (and love) people. If I'm feeling sad, I might want to be alone but if someone came and visited and gave me back something I had lost, I would feel immensely grateful.
I find this line of the conversation interesting. If it were a depressed me, I would not want somebody to befriend me because they found a suicide note. I would be a "charity" friend and would find the situation humiliating and further proof of my perceived inadequacies. I need and love people as well but that need, especially when depressed, would not be strong enough to endure the self-hatred that would come from being somebody's project. Clearly, different people feel differently about this.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
I wouldn't trust the D.C. police with a pack of peanuts, let alone a USB drive.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I'd be worried about any authorities overreacting because they have to cover their butts. I sometimes get the impression that the mental health professionals here do the same thing, which is why I wouldn't ever admit to suicidal feelings. It's a shame, because I do have some OCD-type feelings where I worry that I might hurt myself but don't actually want to. I'd like to discuss them, but I don't need the counselor freaking out that I might hurt myself.
A good counselor won't spaz and should know the difference between an obsession on an image and the actual desire to go hrough with it. Maybe find someone who is used to OCD patients instead of suicidal emo college students who won't think that the prevelence of an image means you'll go through with it. But that's kind of a matter of feeling out the therapist, which kinda sucks.
-pH
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Why anonymity?
1) My father was a police officer. He taught us that when lost things were found (i.e., a wallet on the street), you turned them into the proper authorities -- without going through them. The officer inventoried them in front of the "findee" and then made the attempt to return them where they belonged. The "findee" could choose to be identified to the person whose item was being returned. 2) Saving face. I certainly wouldn't want the angst of wondering whether or not the person returning the lost item had stumbled across provate material in an effort to find out who the item belonged to. Whereas, a trained professional will address the concern directly. And have a far better idea more than likely of possible resources. 3) Taking a depressed person out for a drink is a really bad idea. Unless you're talking a root beer. But, again frankly, I wouldn't want to be befriended on the basis of someone's alarm or pity. Nor is that helpful in the long run to helping build esteem, self-confidence, or moving through whatever garbage is causing unhappiness. 4) Personal Safety. Having been on the finding end of successful suicide, and failed suicides, I can pretty much guarantee that you don't want that in your head, in your nose, on your skin, in your psyche . . . nor do you want an unbalanced person to decide what will really make him/her feel better is to do a little collateral damage to a person trying to be friendly and helpful. /paranoia
*shrugs*
Do what you think best, Tom -- I think folks have tried to tell you straight out what they think, what they would do, how they would approach the situation -- one of the truly lovely things about Hatrack.
For me, I would have turned the USB over to the police, letting them know where and when I found it, without ever putting the sucker in my PC to check it out. I don't think I can ever explain it -- but to me it feels far more invasive to me to have someone I probably don't know dig into my files, as opposed to police.
*shrugs*
Just my humble .02.
*smile*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Around here, the cops have better things to do than play the city lost and found. Turning in lost items to them would be like flinging them into a black hole.
-pH
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
Glad you found it... Never know if your call just to say that you'd found the info (regardless of if it's known what was read, etc) was enough to make the writer do a double-take. Kudos to you for calling.
I know it's a 'cheesy' forward but have you ever read the one about the kid who helped a classmate carry his books home from school one day? We just never know what seemingly small action we take will help to change a life for the better.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I think almost all police officers are good people who want to help and do a hard job at the risk of their own life and limb. I trust their training and their discretion.
Having known many police officers I'd have to say that that's a huge generalization to make. Sure, some police officers are how you describe, but i know many younger people that just got into it because they didn't know what else to do with themselves and the police were hiring. And the benefits are good.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What would I have done?
If I found it in any kind of establishment, turned it over to the Lost and Found of that establishment. If I lost something, the first thing I'd do is go back to the place I lost it in hopes that someone had turned it in.
If I found it on the street, probably looked at the contents and the dates to see if it was something someone would want. If so, I would have looked for an e-mail address or a way to get into contact with them. Once contact was established, returned the item immediately - as soon as I found it if possible.
If I ran across a suicide note, probably would have done the same as above. When I met to return the device, I would have handed them a piece of paper with referrals on it, apologized a thousand times for my temerity, and given some personal assurance that help could be found. However, for the last, I have absolutely no experience with it. If it really seemed like something would happen soon, I'd tell someone else- maybe the police. I absolutely do not feel equipped to handle it myself.
--
I lost my planner once on the street when I was in college. It was attached to the back of my bike and bounced off. I didn't notice until I got home, and I'd been all over town - I had no idea where I'd lost it. Within an hour, a man called me to say he'd found it and was returning it. He'd called the number at the front but that was to my permanent address, and my stepmother didn't know my phone number at school (embarrassing for her, amusing for me). He looked through the address book and found my number (under "M" for "Me"). I was incredibly grateful.
I actually think an offer to go out or of friendship at that point would have felt like an imposition. Returning my lost item is courteous, but if someone wanted to be closer to me as a result - whatever the motivation - that would be icky.
I think it's because returning it quickly and without any expectations of a continued relationship feels like a simple service - they did what they to to get it back to me, and now our encounter is over. Going through it and then delaying the return or wanting something - anything, for any motivation - feels more like an uninvited and invasive step into my life.
The first is the result of people inevitably encountering each other in a civilization, but the second is coming where they weren't invited and don't need to be.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I was wondering what katharina would think. She is often very proper and often agrees with Mrs. M on points of etiquette, while my manners are probably abominable.
(ahh she responded to my off-hatrack question above, before I had a chance to explain why I asked her!)
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I suspect Katie has found the closest thing to an in-between on the issues that can exist. While perhaps not quite as formal as what Mrs. M had in mind, I'm wondering if she would also see this as a somewhat reasonable comprimise in the hypothetical.
(I'm not saying this is what Tom should or shouldn't do, I think everyone has to respond to a situation as their character and conscience dictates)
AJ
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
On the generic "How do I return lost property" question, without the suicide note complication, I think taking reasonable steps to identify and contact the true owner is a good thing to do. This assumes such a course of action is legal, which I make no comment about one way or the other. It saves public resources, reinforces the idea of community responsibility rather than delegating common citizenship tasks to government, and it probably results in faster return of lost items. Of course, one needs to turn it over quickly if one can't find the identity of the owner, either to a lost and found or main office at the facility where the item was found or the police.
In the specific case at hand, turning it over to the police would most likely have resulted in it not getting returned to the owner.
The law of most states makes a distinction between lost and misplaced property. Lost property is property found in a place where it was not put by the owner. Misplaced property is property left in a the place it was found by the owner.
Of course, one can't always tell which a particular piece of property is, but there are good indicators. A credit card on a table in a restaurant was most likely misplaced. A credit card in the parking lot was most likely lost.
The distinction is important because, under the common law, the finder of a lost object held it against all the world except the rightful owner. A misplaced object was held by the owner of where it was found, because it was more likely the owner would show up there looking for it.
Now many states have a "register the item for X days and, if not claimed, it's yours" law. That's good for establishing ownership and can be helpful for marshaling self-interest to get items returned to their rightful owner. However, in cases where the law doesn't require turning over found property immediately and the goal of the finder is return of the object, other methods work, too.
It should also be noted for those who would prefer the police rather than a stranger have one's personal items that the stranger had possession in both instances. The question of which course of action to prefer presumes a finder with good intentions.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, I returned it and went out for a coffee with the guy for about half an hour. Without going into too much detail, I think he's okay; he's just going through a bad patch. He and John don't know each other, but I think I'm probably going to introduce them. They actually have quite a lot in common, and John's looking for a D&D player and a mediocre bass player, and this guy is both.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm glad the guy's okay! It's awesome that you got to hang out with him.
-pH
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You're a good man, Tom.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
He's actively looking for a mediocre bass player? How interesting.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Everyone in John's band is over 40, pudgy, and -- while good enough to get the occasional gig -- not particularly gifted. They're a mediocre cover band, and mainly get together to jam for fun; if they get paid for it, that's just frosting. So their last bass player, who really wanted to be GREAT, kept trying to make them into a great band -- and they didn't WANT to be a great band. What they want is a bass player who's just good enough to not be bad, and knows it.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
That's a fine distinction to know -- *smile* -- and a very nice gesture on your part. I'm glad you went for coffee, as opposed to beer.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
I think it's really awesome that you met up with him. Good work, man, Good work... : )
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Nice way for it to work out.
Thanks, Tom.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As much as I appreciate the compliments, I need to point out that a) I didn't exactly do much, here; and b) there's still no knowing how it actually winds up. It's entirely possible that I've read him completely incorrectly. But I don't think so, and am much relieved.
Posted by citadel (Member # 8367) on :
You are a good man.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
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