Which thread was it this time, and who started it?
edit: Was it the anti-semite thread by Pel?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yep.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Maybe Pel is Baldur in disguise, and the puppy kicking got a little bit too close to home Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Didn't read past the first 3 posts so I am completely unsure why the thread was deleted.
BQT: Did you ever play Baldur's Gate?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
He may have been referring to Baldar, a notorious troll of days long past. Pelegius, however, is a better writer than Baldar was.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I've said it before, and I'll say it again now:
When I see someone start a thread, implicitly asking people to devote their time and effort to participating in it, and then delete it, I become far less likely to participate in any thread that they started. I don't want to give them another opportunity to delete my words.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
He deleted it himself? I originally thought Noemon meant that Pop had deleted the thread, but I guess Noemon wouldn't be too likely to make a face at Pop.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You mean there were that many people tripping over each other to get to a Pelegius thread to begin with?
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Just played the game a bit at my brother's place BB. Probably where I got the misspelling from.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:You mean there were that many people tripping over each other to get to a Pelegius thread to begin with?
I suspect that Pel's chief objection to the thread was the fact that it had ceased to have anything to do with him.
It's possible that Pop deleted the thread, and if he did I assume that he had good reason, but that reason would have have to have cropped up very late in the thread's development (and it's much more Pop's style to edit offending posts as necessary and lock the thread). I think it's much more likely that Pel deleted it himself.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: He may have been referring to Baldar, a notorious troll of days long past. Pelegius, however, is a better writer than Baldar was.
Yeah. The conversation had moved on to Baldar, Ced, their effects on the forum, and people's perceptions of their behavior.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The main thread on Hurricane Katrina has been deleted, as well as several interesting discussions about math, and I don't see anyone kicking up a fuss about that.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't remember Baldar being a particularly bad writer. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
He wasn't. His writing style was fairly similar to Bean Counter's.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I do wish we had a way of determining who deleted the threads. We had General Sax's thread disappear and I just assumed he had deleted it. Now this one by Pel, which I assume Pel deleted.
Hmm...could Pel and GS be alts for the same person?
That might make sense seeing as how they are both so "out there" on the stylistic scale, and, if someone were trying to fool us into thinking they were two actually distinct posters, they might elect to make them maximally different.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Just played the game a bit at my brother's place BB. Probably where I got the misspelling from.
Oh which one? I quite enjoy the franchise.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I think it's pretty silly that this forum allows non-moderators to delete threads that they have started.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
You see, there comes an age when you can write off anything due to senility. It doesn't aggravate you as much.
Where was that thread? Heck, I don't know... must have imagined it. Moving on...
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I love being able to delete threads. Though I rarely ever post a thread that is so controversial that people would care. I just delete my stupid teenager thought a year or so after I have resolved it unless there was a good hatrack moment in the thread.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
I agree with Samprimary. Only mods should be allowed to delete whole threads.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I disagree, although I don't think I have ever deleted anything other than a mayfly, which by it's nature is intended to be deleted. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by narrativium: I agree with Samprimary. Only mods should be allowed to delete whole threads.
UBB does not have a "may delete posts but may not delete threads" option.
As has been mentioned every freakin' time this conversation happens (which is about every third significant thread deletion).
Don't get me wrong. I think this thread deletion was rude and mean-spirited, and so are many others. I do wish there were a time-limit on deletions -- say, 24 hours after posting, a post/thread could no longer be deleted.
But I would be very unhappy if the ability to delete posts were taken away (as is true on another UBB forum I post on) altogether. Despite my frustration with some frequent deleters (both of posts and of threads).
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
UBB is an inferior forum system. Hatrack should switch to another board system to fulfill my requirements.
Also, I want a pony.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:But I would be very unhappy if the ability to delete posts were taken away (as is true on another UBB forum I post on) altogether. Despite my frustration with some frequent deleters (both of posts and of threads).
But posts may be edited to remove all their content without allowing threads to be deleted. Is that a fair compromise?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Which is true on my other board as well.
No, it's not a compromise at all, IMO.
Which is not to say that I wouldn't cope if TPTB decided that's what needed to happen. I simply would be unhappy.
*dryly* There are worse things.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
How come? It allows one to remove one's own regretted posts without allowing one to remove others' regretted posts.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
So, you want to have the power to delete not only your words, but other's words as well?
Or am I misunderstanding you?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I want to have the power to delete a post entirely, leaving no trace (assuming I'm fast/lucky enough that no one has seen it yet) behind. Given that the only way (AFAIK) to do that on UBB is to also have the power to delete entire threads, I guess so.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm not sure I follow either, rivka; how is it not a compromise?
Aspectre, if I'd been actively participating in those threads when they were deleted I'd have complained about that too.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I do wish we had a way of determining who deleted the threads. We had General Sax's thread disappear and I just assumed he had deleted it. Now this one by Pel, which I assume Pel deleted.
We later discovered that it was General Sax who deleted that thread.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I would be fine if we took away deletion rights and you could only edit - that still would allow you to delete words you didn't want up anymore but not give you the power to delete anyone else's.
The only time I can see it being a problem is in a thread that I personally deleted - I posted some information that I shouldn't have, violating some privacy issues, and others had quoted me so I couldn't just edit it away. I did tell everyone I was going to delete it and apologized for it. But in that case, you could perhaps whistle the posts that had the information and ask the mods to edit or delete them or even the whole thread if the mods thought it necessary.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I think it's pretty silly that this forum allows non-moderators to delete threads that they have started.
You only say this because you've never had a thread that YOU started turn terribly ugly and cruel towards yourself.
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Soo, I said something about kicking puppies-- where did the thread go from there again?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's refreshingly up front of you to admit that you like having the power to remove others' words.
(And rivka, this isn't meant as contrast or that you haven't been up front - I 100% believe that your motivation is purely control over your own posts, not others'.)
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Wait, rivka, I'm confused... you CAN delete individual posts, can you not? The only instance in which it would delete an entire thread is if it's the first/original post in the thread. And in that case, subsequent responses wouldn't make sense anyway... what exactly are you referring to?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: That's refreshingly up front of you to admit that you like having the power to remove others' words.
(And rivka, this isn't meant as contrast or that you haven't been up front - I 100% believe that your motivation is purely control over your own posts, not others'.)
If you're responding to my post. Um. What?
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dags, I didn't say that, actually. Nor would it be true. Not if we're going to use words like "purely" or "100%."
I have (twice? three times? perhaps more than that, but not much) very rarely deliberately deleted threads. The most recent time I shocked Jonathon. They were always short threads, and I always warned people first.
However, I have defended the deletion (by other people) of longer threads. OTOH, I absolutely believe that other members of the community have every right to:
continue to quote all or some of a deleted post/thread
indicate their displeasure with thread deletion via threads like this one
and/or by ignoring/avoiding subsequent threads from frequent-deleters.
Raia, UBB forums (AFAIK, and going by what I have been told in the past) can be "set" (by the mods) to either allow no post deletions or all post deletions. Hatrack has the latter; my other UBB forum has the former.
I prefer the latter.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: That's refreshingly up front of you to admit that you like having the power to remove others' words.
(And rivka, this isn't meant as contrast or that you haven't been up front - I 100% believe that your motivation is purely control over your own posts, not others'.)
If you're responding to my post. Um. What?
-pH
Yes, I was responding to your post. You have stated that anyone who has faced objectionable content aimed at them would welcome the ability to delete a thread. I did presume that this was because they would want to remove the offending content themselves.
I disagree with that wholeheartedly, but I like that you're up front about it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: I think it's pretty silly that this forum allows non-moderators to delete threads that they have started.
You only say this because you've never had a thread that YOU started turn terribly ugly and cruel towards yourself.
-pH
I have been flamed worse than hatrack would ever allow, and still on principle I do not support the removal of public record on forums. I have never deleted the account of my participation in discussions. I have never vanished a post, nor a thread. Assuming my principles do not change, I never will. Never had the desire, really.
A lot of places are catching on to this idea, since the practice of 'Stealth Edit' and 'vanishment' infuriates people. On my favorite forums, there is no deletion of record. Threads can be exiled to static forums or locked, but the account remains the same. It has worked out great.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
...because I've never been up-front about anything before?
Well Sam, I'm sorry I'm just not as "principled" as you. I tend to expect people to behave in a semi-civil manner. If they don't, I don't see why I should be forced to continue to put up with it.
-pH
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
It was more like harassment than any kind of decent topic Dag. For what she was talking about, anyway.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: ...because I've never been up-front about anything before?
-pH
I have no idea where you get that from. I haven't said anything of the kind, nor do any of my posts mean that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Knowing that I could never go back and edit or delete my words would severly limit my participation in a forum.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Raia, UBB forums (AFAIK, and going by what I have been told in the past) can be "set" (by the mods) to either allow no post deletions or all post deletions. Hatrack has the latter; my other UBB forum has the former.
I prefer the latter.
Ohh, I see. Thank you for the clarification. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Hey, before Noemon goes out of control wacko and deletes this thread (just kidding mind you), did someone answer my question about when the puppy kicking thread was? I was looking forward to coming home and finding out.
And I like that we have the ability to delete threads. I also like threads like this that make it abundantly clear that it's seen as an extreme lack of decorum to do so without notice.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I still don't think it SHOULD be seen as so terribly rude if terribly rude things have been said to you inside the thread. If people want to be treated with respect and courtesy, they should treat others that way as well.
-pH
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Notice I said "without notice". I deleted a thread which a lot of people put a lot of time and thought into. It wasn't an offensive thread, just one that would get me in trouble later (my "Teenage angst" thread"). I deleted it after giving about a days warning and reasons. Regardless of how rude you're treated, I think you still owe the community at large at the least a warning. It can be very disconcerting. Heh. Remember when Advent completely changed the name of some thread or another? I didn't catch on to that one for days.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't think you owe the "community" anything if they don't give you the basic respect owed any intelligent human being.
-pH
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
You're probably right. It's my idealism speaking again.
Get back in your hole Idealism! Shoo! Shoo!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: ...because I've never been up-front about anything before?
Well Sam, I'm sorry I'm just not as "principled" as you. I tend to expect people to behave in a semi-civil manner. If they don't, I don't see why I should be forced to continue to put up with it.
-pH
These are principles of procedure, I don't see it as a contest.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"I still don't think it SHOULD be seen as so terribly rude if terribly rude things have been said to you inside the thread. If people want to be treated with respect and courtesy, they should treat others that way as well."
I agree except for the "to you" qualifier. A person who brings up a topic that that leads to rudeness overwhelming conversation should be able to decide "Enough is enough. Hatrack isn't a trolling society." And as Belle has said, accidental release of information that should have been held private is a good reason for deletion.
What I don't understand is deletion of historical threads, ie Jatraqueros' realtime reaction to historical events, and of technical threads in which no such rudeness had occurred.
[ November 08, 2006, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah aspectre, that doesn't make any sense to me either. I wish that we still had the threads that were posted as 9/11 was unfolding, for example.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, and Dr. Strangelove, I answered you as best I could in the deleted thread, but I'm afraid my response was just a guess. I think that the thread was created in the 2001/2002 timeframe, but I'm a long way from certain of it.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Ya know, that seems like a devilishly long time ago, but when I think about it, I think my first lurking stint was around that time. I was just about to start posting when I left the country for a month and didn't get back into Hatrack for another few years.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I don't think you owe the "community" anything if they don't give you the basic respect owed any intelligent human being.
Which was, I think, the problem with the thread you deleted. You felt like you were being dogpiled (unnecessarily and unprovoked), while other people didn't feel that way at all.
When there's just as good a chance that the OP is overreacting as there is that actual dogpiling, I'm against thread deletion. It seems like the internet equivalent of, "I can't hear you!"
*In case you don't remember, I didn't participate in the thread you're talking about. So I certainly don't have anything invested in arguing against you deleting it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:You only say this because you've never had a thread that YOU started turn terribly ugly and cruel towards yourself.
Amen.
I delete threads. I'm sorry - I don't do it without careful thought. However, there have definitely been times where I started a thread and someone was horribly nasty in it - like the time I asked what to do with my unused wedding dress and KoM suggested I hang myself with it.
I'm glad we can delete threads, and I'll delete threads where terrible things are said to me. I'm sorry for the overall effect of deleting threads, but I've never been sorry for any specific instance.
There is a lot of leeway on this board - people can get fairly nasty before anything happens. That's fine, but the deleting the thread is like the ultimate escape clause. The only way to get rid of that option would be to up the moderating in a big way. I don't see that happening.
For the record, that and the release of personal information are the only reasons I can think of to justify deleting a thread. If it's just because a thread has gone off track or, heaven forbid, is no longer focusing on the attention-seeker who started it, then that's a bad reason.
It's like the Roman government during the time of empire - autocratism tempered by assasination.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Knowing that I could never go back and edit or delete my words would severly limit my participation in a forum.
Exactly.
I used to be all principled about thread deletions and stuff. Then I said some things that I didn't realize were terrible to the people I said them too, and both of us wound of leaving for several months. I'm not a Hatrack regular anymore, but I love a lot of people who are, and the fact that words stay can make it very hard to be human.
Whenever we have genuine contact with others, we take the risk of being hurt, and I think that includes the possibility of thread deletion. Learning who you don't wish to have such contact with is part of life.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: like the time I asked what to do with my unused wedding dress and KoM suggested I hang myself with it.
<blink> He what?
Why is he still allowed on Hatrack?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Good question. I am not the one to answer that.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Cause it was a joke. In a thread full of joking suggestions about what to do with the dress, started off by Katie posting her top 10 list of things to do with an unused wedding dress.
It was definitely in poor taste, but it was clear that he wasn't seriously suggesting that she hang herself with the dress.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Poor taste doesn't even begin to cover it.
Because of actions and then defenses like that, I'm glad we can delete threads. I'm sorry when it's done for bad reasons, but I don't think they are all bad reasons.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Sorry you don't like KoM, but that doesn't change the fact that he was joking in a joke-filled thread and you took offense. And you were the one who started the joking.
What did you expect? That only people who were preapproved by you would come in and joke, and only within the bounds of propriety (as determined by you)?
I'm not saying it was or it wasn't out of line, because that's not up to me. If it was offensive to you, then you know where the whistle is. That's why we have mods, and excellent ones at that.
I guess for me it's a question of intent. You can always find offense if you're looking for it, but if it's clear that none is meant then that seems like an awfully defensive way to go through life.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I did whistle it, in tears. Nothing happened.
That's what I mean - it could conciveably be seen as a joke. A tacky, mean one by someone who is regularly unspeakably rude. If it's still okay to do, then I'm grateful there's a Drop Dead button on the thread.
I was actually imaging that people would be nice, supportive, and not kick someone who is down. There are forums where people act that way - maybe not naturally, but because the alternative isn't tolerated. There's more freedom here, but there are also more jackasses. Thank heavens, there is also the delete button.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
JT, if you don't see the difference between suggesting suicide and the other joking suggestions . . .
Then I agree with Katie that that's exactly why thread deletion should be an option.
Posted by pel@school (Member # 9861) on :
I have created an account to say these things:
I reserve the right to delete any and all of my posts, a right shared by all members of this community.
The ability to do this has existed since well before I joined and was not of my own invention. Nor was this the first thread I have deleted, nor indeed was I the first Hatracker to delete a thread.
I wish that there were a way to add an explanation of why a thread was deleted, but this is not within my power. In retrospect, I should have created a thread on the subject.
For the record, I deleted the thread for the most obvious reason: I regreted its existence. I regret having written what I wrote then at a moment of intense stress.I did not wish to maintain a thread on the subject any longer.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by pel@school: I reserve the right to delete any and all of my posts, a right shared by all members of this community.
The ability to do this has existed since well before I joined and was not of my own invention. Nor was this the first thread I have deleted, nor indeed was I the first Hatracker to delete a thread.
Yup, you have the right. You even have the right to delete it without any warning, as you did. It's rather rude, though.
And those of us who didn't appreciate the deletion will be that much less likely to post in future threads you start. Moreover, you should be aware that one way Hatrack has dealt with frequent thread-deleters in the past is for people who still had the thread cached (or who had been deliberately saving it) to repost the thread themselves after deletion.
But yes, you certainly have the right to delete threads.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ok, fair enough. The hanging thing was maybe just a touch over the line. I apologise.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thank you. That's very cool.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
It's not, actually, it just seems that way because you're used to me being rude.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Sorry, I was writing this two hours ago. But I still feel like saying it, so here it is:
quote:JT, if you don't see the difference between suggesting suicide and the other joking suggestions . . .
Maybe if you guys could compile a list of all the things it's okay to joke about, for easy reference. It would have certainly been alright to make that joke to a group of my RL friends, in the proper context.
Are all jokes about suicide off-limits? What if it's animal suicide (I assume lemming jokes are still kosher, so to speak)? What about cartoon characters?
Point 1: everyone has different limits, and it's nearly impossible to predict (except with those you're closest to) what will and will not offend. So you either don't joke, or don't take yourself so bloody seriously.
Point 2: you whistled the post, and nothing happened. What does that say to you? Did the mods (who are typically praised for being exemplary) fail you? Did you overreact? Did they not see it? Number two seems far and away the most likely to me.
I see what you're saying, and I know full well you're not changing your mind just because I disagree. I just wanted to chime in and say I don't agree that thread deletion is alright in the scenario you list (that is, when you don't like the direction the thread is heading in). That attitude is just too...vigilante for me.
------
Pel, as rivka mentioned, you're certainly entitled to delete any posts of your own that you see fit. The objections raised here and elsewhere come not from deleting your words but from deleting the words of the others who participated in your thread. That is my main objection to thread deletion, along with several other people.
Your words are yours. But to delete other people's posts is disrespectful, IMO.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Jokes about things that still hurt are off limits. Jokes about suicide on occasions where people actually have killed themselves over are off limits. Kicking someone when they are already down is off limits.
quote:you whistled the post, and nothing happened. What does that say to you?
That I have to take care of myself because no one will do it for me.
Hence the delete button.
It would be vigilante if I hacked Hatrack to do it. When it's presented as an option, then it is exactly that - a permissable option. It can't be vigilante then.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I really appreciated your last few posts, JT.
Just sayin'.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What did you like, Juxtapose? Specifically?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Jokes about suicide on occasions where people actually have killed themselves over are off limits. Kicking someone when they are already down is off limits.
Name me an occasion that someone hasn't committed suicide over. You're picking a nit. You don't like the joke, but I think that's more because you don't take jokes from KoM as jokes than because of the actual content of the joke. It's understandable, really. If I knew that someone felt nothing but contempt for my faith, the center of my being, I probably wouldn't want them participating in my lighthearted self-deprecating thread, either.
quote:It can't be vigilante then.
When the normal course of action 'fails' you and you take matters into your own hands, I call that vigilante. You don't, and that's fine. I promise not to reveal your secret identity if you promise not to bring down any of that world famous vigilante justice on me. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Yup, you have the right. You even have the right to delete it without any warning, as you did. It's rather rude, though.
And those of us who didn't appreciate the deletion will be that much less likely to post in future threads you start.
Exactly.
As long as I believe, as I do now, that you are likely to delete any thread of yours, I will not invest time or effort into any thread you start. I may post in them, but I will never post anything that I would mind being thrown away.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thank you for understanding. I think KoM understood that it wouldn't be appreciated at the time as well, which is why I objected. It's like crashing your ex-boyfriend's wedding.
quote:When the normal course of action 'fails' you
It IS a normal course of action, though. It's there as an option. You can delete a post you have written, and you can delete a thread you have started. If a thread gets personally nasty, you can whistle a post or you can delete it without a waiting period.
It's like getting a divorce. You can try a trial separation first, work through a mediator, and go to counseling, or you can just file. Nothing on that list is vigilante.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
And isn't that what this whole thread is about? Whether or not the original poster should have the right to delete their thread? Obviously, we're at an impasse, because you think the answer is 'yes', and I think it's 'no'.
That's why it seems vigilante to me(I shouldn't have been so cavalier -- going with the first word that fit my meaning), and I wouldn't do it. You're obviously correct in saying that you have the ability to delete any thread you start. What we disagree on is whether you have the right.
And I doubt we'll settle that one way or another in this thread, so I'm gonna get back to work.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Okay.
My stance is that as long as we have the freedom we have here to post, then in order to maintain a level of discourse that does not drive away all but the thick-skinned and uninvested, the delete button is necessary.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"It's rather rude, though."
Many normal behaviours here are rather rude. I weighed my options: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I am sorry if I caused offence, but I did what I believed right using a means clearly granted to me as a right.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I disagree. While I can understand why you didn't want your posts in that thread to continue to exist, the thread had ceased to have anything to do with them; it had moved on completely. The subjects that were being discussed were worthwhile to me, and I'd guess that they were at least marginally so to some of the other participants in the conversation.
I recognize that just deleting your posts from the thread wouldn't have accomplished your purpose, given that there were enough responses to you that it would have been possible to see your post in the negative space (so to speak). The ideal solution would have been to have Pop split the thread, leaving you able to delete the earlier, topic-focused stuff without clearing away the digression. I have no idea if the UBB software can handle that sort of thing, however.
[Edit--Thank you for responding, by the way. I was pretty angry about the deletion when you made it, but hearing why you'd chosen to do so definitely helped. Your motive was much more reasonable than the one I'd uncharitably ascribed to you.]
[ November 09, 2006, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "It's rather rude, though."
Many normal behaviours here are rather rude. I weighed my options: I believed then and I believe now that I acted in the best interests of myself and the community. No one here profited from that thread.
I am sorry if I caused offence, but I did what I believed right using a means clearly granted to me as a right.
We also have the right to complain about whiny, self-centered people. Particularly since this isn't the first such thread. Hell, it isn't even the first this week, is it? Overall Hatrack had been fairly kind up to that point...far more than we usually are with most people.
Delete all you want...sometime it may even be the right thing to do. I think I have deleted two thread in about 5 years...and the first was an accident. But if it becomes a pattern (it hasn't, yet) then expect to get called on it.
You have the right...
...but that doesn't mean anyone here has to like it, or not complain about it, particularly since those type of self-centered thread are your bread and butter posts, Pel. You are rude most of the time, speaking down to people constantly, and with very little reason to do so. You have been called on it before, usually quite gently, and you have made it clear you don't care and that you have no intention of stopping doing so.
I don't care if you ARE in HS, you want to post in that manner, at least have the guts to face the music.
Or delete....the content will be just as enlightening for us, and won't clutter up the front page with all the drama.
I also think kat had every right to be upset....and that KoM was pretty cool to speak up here, so long after it happened. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:But if it becomes a pattern (it hasn't, yet) then expect to get called on it.
Pel has deleted multiple threads when the attention shifted from him.
Oh, how I wish for an 'ignore user' button here.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: No one here profited from that thread.
No one profits from any of your whiny, self-indulgent threads. But that doesn't seem to stop you from posting them.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
What was it that OSC said a week or so ago? Ah, it was:
quote:Many people on this site are crazy and making stuff up. I am one of them. Being crazy and making stuff up is not a detriment to full participation on Hatrack.
I just thought that was funny and kind of fit here.
And I still think the easiest and most reasonable answer to all of this is to simply post a notice saying you're going to delete the thread in 24 hours or something. You could even request PJ to lock it, so there would be no more posts, but allow people to record theirs (though I think that then prevents you from deleting it). It won't please everybody, but it should keep from ticking everybody off.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
". Particularly since this isn't the first such thread. Hell, it isn't even the first this week, is it?"
Um, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have started only a few threads this week, one on philosophy, one on the Texas election and the one I deleted. I think that is all.
"speaking down to people constantly"
I don't speak up or down, I just speak. Sometimes more loudly than others, sometimes more wisely than others. Indeed, I would say that my writing style is very objective toward my audience. I assume that that is part of criticisms I have heard about being "too academic," as academics view their audience objectively (well, actualy, they love any interested audience they can get, but they write objectively.)
"Pel has deleted multiple threads"
not true by almost any standard of the word "multiple."
"The ideal solution would have been to have Pop split the thread, leaving you able to delete the earlier, topic-focused stuff without clearing away the digression. I have no idea if the UBB software can handle that sort of thing, however."
I had not considered that, and I am not sure it can be done either.
If anyone has it archived, I have no objective to the posts on any tangents being created as a new thread.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Have you not deleted more than just that one thread? If not, I apologize.
As for splitting the thread, it can be done on every other BB I participate in. Not sure whether UBB allows it, but I imagine it does.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I don't speak up or down, I just speak.
Let me just point out that your perception of your writing style is in disagreement with many people here.
Whether or not you think you're talking down to them, they will still react as though you are if that's how they perceive it.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I always figured that if you're unhappy with something you've written, that's what the edit button is for. If you're unhappy with what someone else has written, that's the price you pay for public discourse. You're free to ignore them.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Again MC, that's all kinds of easy to say when you aren't the kid being beaten up at recess.
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Again MC, that's all kinds of easy to say when you aren't the kid being beaten up at recess.
-pH
Wait, who's getting beat up? It's a conversation.
If you want to interact with other people, they're not all going to agree with you.
From what I've experienced here, deleting a thread usually incurs more wrath than just ignoring the one that's already going on. Any time someone deletes a thread, 2 or 3 more pop up about how the thread was deleted and how people who delete threads are puppy kickers.
As far as I can see, deleting a thread just gets someone more attention, which is probably what they want anyway, if they're starting a bunch of Woe Is Me threads. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
MC, believe me, a lot of what was said to me in the threads that I deleted was, to me, the equivalent of being beaten up. It HURT. It hurt a LOT. And I absolutely do not think it was rude of me to delete the threads. It's not about people agreeing or not agreeing. It's about people acting civilly.
-pH
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Pel, Think what you want. It MUST be true, despite the time and effort that other people have spent telling you otherwise.
It's all them, not you.
[ November 09, 2006, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
pH, does deleting the thread make the hurt go away? I'm not trying to downplay people's feelings being hurt, I know it happens, but how does deleting the thread make it any better? Maybe if the thread were still around, people could apologize, people could learn from their mistakes. Just something to consider.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There are times it is necessary to be rude. Not as often as people seem to think these days, but sometimes it is better than letting yourself get walked on.
But most of the time it isn't self preservation, it is hubris that causes it.
Thread deletion isn't wrong, at least to me, but it should not be you patent, often-used response if you want to be taken seriously at Hatrack.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: pH, does deleting the thread make the hurt go away? I'm not trying to downplay people's feelings being hurt, I know it happens, but how does deleting the thread make it any better? Maybe if the thread were still around, people could apologize, people could learn from their mistakes. Just something to consider.
It makes you not have to look at it anymore. If the thread were still around (at least, this particular thread) no one would have ever apologized, as they were all having far too much fun treating me like trash. No one cared to learn from their mistakes in that instance. And yes, I'm still peeved about it, especially since I think that if people really wanted to learn from their mistakes, they might've figured it out already when I tried to explain instead of CONTINUING to pick on me. Of course, if other people had started threads to pick on me instead of doing it in my own threads, or even dragging up threads from months before in order to continue the bashing, THAT would have been for some reason over the line, whereas everything else was not. Why? I have no idea.
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: There are times it is necessary to be rude. Not as often as people seem to think these days, but sometimes it is better than letting yourself get walked on.
"Rudeness" is also a form of flattery. People are more comfortable breaking social display rules when in the company of friends whom they trust implicitly not to take the offending comment or line-cross or otherwise generally unnaceptable thing seriously. It's something i notice here on Hatrack, that people sometimes refuse (mostly because of the medium) to make a distinction in their interpretation of comments between friendly casual rudeness, and abrasive rudeness. I've done this myself.
I am always struck when talking to people for the first time, how some people are lacking in the ability to judge how familiar they should be with me. Often I will hold a comment against someone in my first impression of them, that I would have accepted as a quirk if I had known them better. Often a person's simple ability to understand the nature of the boundaries between us will make that person likeable- or not likeable. Whether someone is too reserved, or too willing to show their whole hand when dealing with me, I find myself learning a great deal about a person very quickly, and that is often the only impression I ever get. When I am forced to spend a greater amount of time with someone I immediately found to be personality deficient or tiresome or boring, my interactions have only solidified my initial opinions. I sometimes wonder if I should approach things differently, but I ussually find myself unable to suspend the workings of my own mind when meeting people- so I always end up judging.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't think rudeness is a form of flattery at all. I am usually rude in two instances....if I don't care at all about your opinion and am tired of you inflicting your opinions on me regardless, and if what I have to say mean more to me than the chance of offending you does.
I have gotten a lot better about both, and can usually remove myself without being rude, but those are the most common reasons for rudeness, IMO.
There is one more reason to be deliberately rude...s a literal "rude awakening". Sometimes being rude is a lesser of evils.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: If the thread were still around (at least, this particular thread) no one would have ever apologized, as they were all having far too much fun treating me like trash.
I suppose if you feel that way about the people you're conversing with, it makes sense to delete the thread.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
*Bump*
Ooups, accident!
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