I've been speaking to a lot of my friends from middle-school /high-school, and it seems that they've just put their careers on auto-pilot... now we graduated from high school in just 2002, but a lot of them are doing MBA's, MCA's and other assorted degrees for absolutely no reason... somehow these seem like natural progressions to them... a friend of mine came to the US to do her MCA even though she dislikes her subject, and doesnt know what she wants to do with it.
is this common in the US also?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Careers in auto-pilot? We have people living whole lives in cruise control, winding their way to cookie-cutter houses in the suburbs. It's striking how far you can go, and be encouraged to go, as long as you stop thinking about what you are doing.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
In defense of those of us who do, sometimes you have to actually meet other responsibilities before you get to go off and do what you enjoy. Being a telecommunications engineer sucks, but it has kept me alive and my children fed where the money I made playing music or stand to make instructing martial arts would not.
Those cookie cutter houses in the suburbs are much nicer than "those carboard boxes under the bridge" too.
If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
It's definitely not uncommon, but I don't know that it's common either. I do have several friends who went on to grad school for no other reason than that they didn't want to get a real job yet. This doesn't make any sense to me, because after they get a masters they will then have to get an even more imporant job (I assume) and won't have any experience in the field. But to each his own.
On the other hand, I know many people who have taken their degree and almost immediately went into their field of choice and are very happy doing exactly what they want to do.
And then there are the ones that got a degree, went into that field and realized they didn't like it. So they quit whatever job it was and went back to school to get another degree. Thats pretty ballsy, IMO; to start over almost at the beginning in order to do something you really want to do.
And then there's people like me, who said "forget you school! I do what I want!" and got a job before graduating.
[edit: I'm not saying these are the only types of people by any means, only that most of the people I went to school with fall into these categories.]
So yes, there are many people in America, and I assume around the world, who go through their education, careers and lives on auto pilot, but there are also many who put the top down, slam on the brakes, swerve into oncomming traffic, run the stop sign and laugh into the wind. It takes different strokes.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you.
*bravo*
quote:We have people living whole lives in cruise control, winding their way to cookie-cutter houses in the suburbs.
That's one form of life on cruise control. Another is ill-informed over-generalizations steeped in prejudice.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
with all due respect, I don't think Jim-Me's argument holds much water... the "If you want to do something different, start by not letting your job define you." seems pretty ridiculous to me
We spend 50% of our waking lives doing our "jobs" if we are putting in that much effort into something, it better be something that defines us.
You can't win big if you don't take risks... a lot of people are trying to get the things that you want, and if you don't put 100% effort, someone else will, and they'll take it.
Talking about kids and responsibilities are fine, but the kids came later didnt they? It was your decision to have the kids [and thus take on the added responsibility], if you truly wanted to be a musician, why not give 100% towards achieving that?
Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end... but working as an engineer and pursuing a career in martial arts just seems impractical to me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think of education as tools, to get the life that you want.
If you don't know what you want to do, then you can spend your time aquiring the tools to do whatever it is when you do find out.
There is no situation where having more education is a bad thing, especially if you don't know what you want. If you do know and are ignoring that, then you should examine why. If it is because you're afraid of either poverty or bucking the trends, then you should work on that and pursue what you want. If it is because you have people depending on you and your dream will mean letting them down without recourse, then that's a dang fine reason to keep going to a job you don't especially enjoy.
The trap people get into is getting debt. No matter what life brings you, don't get into consumer debt and don't take on so big of a mortgage that you can't sell the house and be free and clear if you needed to. The only time someone is trapped by a job when they don't have kids is when they have crushing debt that they have to pay back. Grad school because you don't know what you want to do with life? That's fine - it's their life, and it isn't like they are spending it surfing. Going into debt to get a degree for a career they aren't sure they want? Really dumb - that's a trap.
So, in Katie's opinion, in order to be free, stay out of debt.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:We spend 50% of our waking lives doing our "jobs" if we are putting in that much effort into something, it better be something that defines us.
Why, exactly? What's wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family?
Why do we need to "win big," and why do you limit this to only half of the waking existence?
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
Dagonee, this is why I said: "Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end..."
There's nothing wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family... as long as the person doesnt claim that their career is their focus.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Why? Are the only choices to win big in a dream job or else publicly aknowledge oneself as a professional failure? Someone can't be good at a non-dream job and take pride in that?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I think of education as tools, to get the life that you want.
I think that there are bigger stakes in education than getting what you want. In fact, I think a good education necessarily shapes what the want may be, and it should shape your conception of what you ought to want. But I think we are going to disagree about this.
quote: What's wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family?
Nothing, in my view, as long as you don't confuse your tolerable job for something that it's not.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Dagonee, this is why I said: "Alternatively, you could truly want to be a good father / husband /etc. But then, you should focus on that and then your job is a means to an end..."
There's nothing wrong with a tolerable job that allows someone to provide well for their family... as long as the person doesnt claim that their career is their focus.
How is that at all relevant to your claim that Jim-Me's "start by not letting your job define you" doesn't hold water? His whole point was that one doesn't have to claim that one's career is one's whole focus.
Sounds like you actually agree with him.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's a fact of life (at least in our society) that a lot of people, with or without a family, are stuck in a job they don't like because that's what they can get and they can't afford to go/go back to school. Does that suck? Yes. Does that mean they should quit their job, and try to get another one? Maybe, maybe not. If they have no reasonable expectation of being able to get a different one, maybe not. My husband is currently in sales. Does he LOVE his job? No. (He loves the hours, though!) Does he hate it? Definitely not. He tolerates it and does it while he finishes school and looks for something else, although if he ends up making more with the commissions at this job than he can with an entry-level job in Accounting (what he loves and really wants to do), then he probably will have to consider carefully whether it's worth doing what he loves and possibly giving up the dream of buying a house for a while, or whether it's better to glide along in sales for a bit and be able to afford a house payment and payments on his student loans.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with either choice, and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
you can, but: a. you should not claim that you're on your way to winning big without taking any risks. b. why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
So that you can really enjoy the other 50%?
So that your children can eat?
You act as if everyone can have their dream job just for asking. Newsflash: they can't.
There are a lot of things that need to get done on this planet that no one enjoys. They might find ways to derive satisfaction out of it - I can be happy changing a diaper because I'm helping care for a child, even though I hate changing diapers when considered in a vacuum.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There are a number of things that go into an education. Naming one does not eliminate the possibility for others.
Saying that getting a house to put your family is selling your house is remarkably selfish.
quote:you should not claim that you're on your way to winning big without taking any risks
Why not? Because it is annoying to see other people happy when you think they shouldn't be?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:why would you want to do something for 50% of your waking life that you don't truly enjoy?
Because it's not about percentages. I think baseball is the most reasonably non-majority rule analogy that's in common conversation. In baseball, you only have to hit the ball three times out of ten to be a hall of famer. If you treat your spouse well and raise your kids thoughtfully and respect the community, does it really matter that you spent the balance of the rest of your life counting widgets?
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
Everyone can't have their dream job for asking, but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
and by gosh, i've already said this twice, and i'll say it again, if you're focus is taking care of family, then it doesnt matter what your job is. but if your focus is your career, then there isn't any point in doing something that you dislike.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
Where do you live? I think I want to move there.
This has not been my experience of the job market, based on most people I know and their hard work and the jobs they ended up with.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: If you treat your spouse well and raise your kids thoughtfully and respect the community, does it really matter that you spent the balance of the rest of your life counting widgets?
Amen.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Why not? Because it is annoying to see other people happy when you think they shouldn't be?
Umm No... because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Where do you live? I think I want to move there.
This has not been my experience of the job market, based on most people I know and their hard work and the jobs they ended up with.
Come to California.
As long as you are focused on what you want to achieve, and work intelligently towards achieving it, you can.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You seem to be assuming that everybody's dream job involves "acheiving" something. It's not.
And even speaking just about those people who do want to acheive something, the thousands upon thousands of actors who, despite all their work and desire, never were able to break into the business is compelling evidence against your theory.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:No... because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
But you don't know where they are going. Why the concern with what people tell themselves about their future?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Everyone can't have their dream job for asking, but you can have your dream job if you're working towards it and are willing to risk a few things...
and by gosh, i've already said this twice, and i'll say it again, if you're focus is taking care of family, then it doesnt matter what your job is. but if your focus is your career, then there isn't any point in doing something that you dislike.
I second KQ's comment. There are any number of reasons why a job in your career track is not available. Further, most careers require due-paying jobs as prerequisites for the chance of having your dream job.
What if you want to be a judge? An executive in a large corporation? An astronaut? A database engineer for Google?
I have friends that want to do all four: in order to get there, they are stuck for years--possibly decades--in jobs they don't particularly enjoy.
...
What if your dream job is something that you're simply not qualified to do, and will never be qualified to do?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Where do you live? I think I want to move there.
This has not been my experience of the job market, based on most people I know and their hard work and the jobs they ended up with.
Come to California.
As long as you are focused on what you want to achieve, and work intelligently towards achieving it, you can.
You live in the state that houses Hollywood and can still make this claim?
Oh boy.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
Porteiro, you bring up a valid point... I didn't mention competency... if you want to be a fighter pilot, but have vision problems, that's clearly going to be a problem.
However, just because thousands upon thousands are trying to do something doesnt mean they are going about it *correctly*
What people tell themselves about their future [and what they do from there] affects not only that person, but society in general... in a nation where people are always excited to tell you what you can't do [gay marriage, etc], why is asking for ambition frowned upon?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:but society in general... in a nation where people are always excited to tell you what you can't do [gay marriage, etc], why is asking for ambition frowned upon?
This makes no sense.
It doesn't sound like you are decrying a lack of ambition. It sounds like you are decrying a number of things from misplaced work to self-delusion. What, exactly, do you think all of your friends should do in their careers in order to further society.
And I dare you to send an e-mail to them letting them know you have it all figured out.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It doesn't sound like you are decrying a lack of ambition. It sounds like you are decrying a number of things from misplaced work to self-delusion.
perhaps I am.
quote: What, exactly, do you think all of your friends should do in their careers in order to further society.
Figure out why they are doing what they are doing, and not just play 'follow-the-leader'. Start by taking the leadership role in their own lives... achieve something... strive to leave the world better than they found it.
quote: And I dare you to send an e-mail to them letting them know you have it all figured out.
You know, maybe I don't have it "all figured out", but I do have a few things sorted out... and I do let my friends know what I think.
but since we're at daring, and such... do I get to double dare you? lol
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Come to California.
*lives in California, L.A. to be precise*
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Come to California.
*lives in California, L.A. to be precise* [
Bay area then :)
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:now we graduated from high school in just 2002, but a lot of them are doing MBA's, MCA's and other assorted degrees for absolutely no reason... somehow these seem like natural progressions to them... a friend of mine came to the US to do her MCA even though she dislikes her subject, and doesnt know what she wants to do with it.
Further, having degrees means that you have more options.
As education becomes more widespread, the basic prerequisites for most jobs are increasing. Jobs that used to require nothing more than a high school diploma to obtain now frequently require a minimum of an associate's degree. Many, many jobs now require a bachelor's degree; oftentimes, the company doing the hiring doesn't even specify what the degree needs to be in. Graduate degree prerequisites are increasingly less uncommon.
Pursuing an additional degree prior to seriously entering the job market is a safe--perhaps even wise--decision.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
You keep saying things like this. What I want to know is, who in this thread do you think is doing this?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Start by taking the leadership role in their own lives... achieve something... strive to leave the world better than they found it
1. It is incredibly arrogant and judgmental of you to say your friends aren't doing this.
2. What, precisely, are you doing? Besides criticizing your friends?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Come to California.
*lives in California, L.A. to be precise*
Bay area then
Would that be the same Bay Area that experienced a sudden and severe economic downturn a couple years back? Where hundreds of people were out work, and couldn't even sell their expensive homes because the real estate market was suddenly so bad?
Perspective and planning for the future are both very good things. And they are among the reasons people get advanced degrees.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*points up* What rivka said.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: What if your dream job is something that you're simply not qualified to do, and will never be qualified to do?
There's also the possibility that you tried, failed, and now have no chance at ever doing anything related to that again. Though we're getting away from the OP's scenario now.
So you find other dreams and other jobs. The two don't often coincide, though, and not many people are wealthy enough (or have parents wealthy enough) to wait for them to do so.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Ahbi, by your standard of achievement, I know a *lot* of achievers, including someone in your area. Since he is far and away the leading "achiever" (again by your standards) I'll use him as an example.
He spent his college years working his tail off. He took some extra time and got his masters. He spent summers interning at Texas Instruments. They got patents on his work, he got underpaid and found out what it was like to live the life of "Office Space", not only 10 years before the movie came out, but before he even finished *college*. Like your friends, he had no clear idea other than "to be successful". He bounced around a few jobs, made some money, still didn't know what he wanted to do.
After a few years of this, some friends of his from college came along and, basically, said "we're making this new company, we could use someone with your skills, want in on the ground floor?" That company was Excite. He effectively retired at 32, doing a little venture capitalism on the side. After a while another company approached him to head up a new section. He said he would, and the understanding they reached was that he would take charge of new projects within the company and grow them until the reached a certain number of employees, then hand them off...because what he learned over the course of his experience is that he really enjoyed starting new companies... but not administering them. He didn't know this in college. He never would have guessed it. But he is now doing exactly what he loves most, solely because he wants to... and he is able to precisely because he was prepared when the opportunity came.
Oh... and you've heard of the other company, too. It's Google.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I've read that people are actually incapable of being happy all the time. When something that was once your fondest dream becomes your everyday reality, then it becomes your baseline of contentment, and you need something else to make you ecstatic.
We also tend to edit our memories to recall the big highs and lows, and skim over the boring stuff.
So I don't see anything wrong, at all, with someone choosing to do a job they don't really enjoy, and doing it on autopilot, so that they can spend the rest of their time doing something else that is awesome and more important to them. I don't think that such people are actually "less happy", day-to-day, than people who attain their fondest childhood dream, and I suspect that by setting aside a particular part of their life to be the boring baseline, they virtually assure themselves that they'll enjoy everything else that is more important to them more ...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I believe in the baseline = normal thing. I think one of life's biggest problems is achieving your dreams and goals, because then you have to come up with all new ones. Very irritating.
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
I think our buddy the newbie here is either a skillful troll or, to put it nicely, incredibly naive. He reminds me of the people that go on American Idol and say that they deserve to win because, darn it, they just want it so bad. Like the people who are supporting their families with manual labor are doing it because they don't want to get paid a million dollars to trash a hotel room and drink until they puke.
The fact is, anyone who really thinks this is how the world works needs to see fewer movies and read more Darwin. The world isn't here to make all your wildest fantasies come true. The world doesn't care whether you live or die. Staying alive is your #1 priority on this planet, and if you happen to be a member of a species who is lucky enough to have 20% of your time to devote to anything else, you should weep with gratitude.
In other words, if you have any job that doesn't consist of spending 18 hours a day chasing rabbits and digging roots to stave off starvation, and that isn't your dream job, you're both phenomenally ungrateful and immensely short-sighted. My recommendation, as long as we're telling people what we really think, is that you stop watching Oprah and join us in the real world.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
In defense of the Bay Area, I live in Chicago now, and the Bay Area felt much more open. Housing was expensive, but I never felt out of the loop because I didn't have a cousin or a friend in such and such industry; whereas in Chicago, it seems that there are more people connected in fishier ways, which crowds out or at least demoralizes any contenders.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Is Abhi Irami?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
No.
quote:
The fact is, anyone who really thinks this is how the world works needs to see fewer movies and read more Darwin. The world isn't here to make all your wildest fantasies come true. The world doesn't care whether you live or die. Staying alive is your #1 priority on this planet, and if you happen to be a member of a species who is lucky enough to have 20% of your time to devote to anything else, you should weep with gratitude.
In other words, if you have any job that doesn't consist of spending 18 hours a day chasing rabbits and digging roots to stave off starvation, and that isn't your dream job, you're both phenomenally ungrateful and immensely short-sighted. My recommendation, as long as we're telling people what we really think, is that you stop watching Oprah and join us in the real world.
This makes me wonder if we aren't all living in different worlds because I don't quite understand how the world which produced me also produced this poster.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You could tried empathy.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think the different worlds hypothesis is more appropriate, if we consider that worlds are made up partly by physical matter and partly by the stories we've been told to help us make sense of it, and our place in it.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Is Abhi Irami?
Shot in the dark: Abhi is Jhai's husband.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
JT, I don't know who Jhai is...
Irami: then you aren't in different worlds. However, I suspect that you have desire to understand his point of view, and a little empathy would clear up the confusion for you.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Why not? Because it is annoying to see other people happy when you think they shouldn't be?
Umm No... because I think you're deluding yourself and/or lying when you claim that you are on your way to hitting big when you are bunting.
Goes to school with Raia, I think?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Bokonon - thanks for that link. I was going to read Cat's Cradle and didn't know anything about it, so it's been sitting on my shelf for a couple of months. Now I'm excited to read it and may start it tonight. Thanks!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I believe in the baseline = normal thing. I think one of life's biggest problems is achieving your dreams and goals, because then you have to come up with all new ones. Very irritating.
Ditto. Or you're looking forward to Thing X happening, and when it happens it just doesn't bring you what you expected, or it isn't the way you thought it would be, and then you're all disillusioned and frustrated. I think it's great to achieve your goals. But I also think it's great to always have huge, gigantic goals that you can continually strive towards. It always gives you something to do.
-pH
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I agree with everybody partially. (Does that make me impartial?) I also had lots of friends who after college were like, I dunno, I guess I'll get a law degree. It seemed aimless (and expensive!) to me at the time.
And it's also true that you can wander into something you love. Happened to me. I was like, I dunno, I guess I'll get a teaching degree. Now it's my dream job (although I'll never get to retire at 32!).
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Liz, there's a little paper on the wall at my company. Not many people ever read it, but I do periodically as I find it a good reminder tp not be concerned with other people's choices and make my own life into as much of what I want as I can.
I know many classmates who I think chose to do law simply because it was the most exclusive course available to them.
I had many better-paying and less strenuous options available to me after graduating high school, but I chose architecture instead. While I'm happy I made that decision, I'm not 100% that I'm headed down the right track.
On the other hand I have a friend who always knew he wanted to be a film director. I met him in the 6th grade, and he was already sure then. Right now he's in film school, and I'm sure he'll make great movies in the future. I respect him immensely, as I tend to respect people who know what they want and single mindedly go about achieving it.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I still don't know exactly what I want to do (I have a few ideas), but I don't mind much. I'm still young. And after I finish my MBA, I want another degree. I don't see anything wrong with that. I like school, and I'm studying things that I want to learn. So does it really matter if I don't know exactly what I'm going to do with my degrees? I don't think so.
-pH
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
Some clarifications, some responses.
First, I want to clarify what my argument is:
I believe, that if someone knows what they want to achieve, has the necessary competency, is determined to achieve it, and works towards it intelligently, they have a good chance of achieving what they want.
A good example of this, is a baseball batter... a good hitter goes in with the necessary talent and preperation, makes adjustments along the way, and when the opportunity comes, swings at it.
Does he hit every time he swings? Of course not. Excellent batters have averages around 0.4.
What I AM trying to say, however, is that none of those home-runs were hit while trying for a bunt. So, if you want to hit a home-run, you gotta swing.
But, there are also people, whose role is to hit the bunt... [like people with a family]... who responsibilities [and risk aversion] are different from the big swingers. Clearly, if someone's been sent out to bunt goes out, swings and misses he's missed the point [if he swings and connects he's a hero].
Obviously, given the fact that several people are trying for the same thing, some are not gonna get it [I addressed this issue earlier]. You're only improving your chances by giving it your 100%... because someone out there who's just as talented as you will give his 100%.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Why? Why oh why oh why? Why must we have sports analogies? [/whine]
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
I think this story [while amusing] is not really relevant... The "joke" is that the american businessman /mba does not think of the goal /end of the great business journey that he describes before he actually gets to it.
I wont dissect it, coz it's a joke, and it's funny, and that's all it needs to be.
But in terms of relevance, imagine what the fisherman could achieve for his community. He could improve the standard of living in his village by offering better employment, education etc. And he could put his profits to good use by contributing to charity... thus leaving the world a better place than he found it [in return for the few fishes he took away].
Let's take the fisherman's life... what does he do if his son gets sick? What happens to his family if he dies in a tragic sea-accident /storm etc?
Even if we follow the story till it's end, isnt he making his family's future more secure by having those millions in the bank [for whenever they need it]?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I think this story [while amusing] is not really relevant... The "joke" is that the american businessman /mba does not think of the goal /end of the great business journey that he describes before he actually gets to it.
I wont dissect it, coz it's a joke, and it's funny, and that's all it needs to be.
But in terms of relevance, imagine what the fisherman could achieve for his community. He could improve the standard of living in his village by offering better employment, education etc. And he could put his profits to good use by contributing to charity... thus leaving the world a better place than he found it [in return for the few fishes he took away].
Let's take the fisherman's life... what does he do if his son gets sick? What happens to his family if he dies in a tragic sea-accident /storm etc?
Even if we follow the story till it's end, isnt he making his family's future more secure by having those millions in the bank [for whenever they need it]?
You missed the point of the story entirely.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Thank you for sharing that story, Jim. I really liked it.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: You missed the point of the story entirely.
please enlighten me :)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Why? Why oh why oh why? Why must we have sports analogies? [/whine]
Seconded!
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Thank you for sharing that story, Jim. I really liked it.
While I don't entirely agree with it, I like it.
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: You missed the point of the story entirely.
please enlighten me
Don't worry. Life will in a few years. Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Thank you for sharing that story, Jim. I really liked it.
While I don't entirely agree with it, I like it.
I don't agree with it either. Thank goodness not everyone follows the story's advice.
Edit: grammar
[ January 19, 2007, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Euripides ]
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Don't worry. Life will in a few years. :)
What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
If I'm missing something in the story, and you know what it is, why can't you tell me?
From where I'm standing, I'm as unlikely to take career advice from a joke about a Mexican fisherman "in a few years" as I am now.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:Is Abhi Irami?
Shot in the dark: Abhi is Jhai's husband.
wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
Perhaps it's in response to the attitude you've been expressing all thread?
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
Perhaps it's in response to the attitude you've been expressing all thread?
Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
And you've been asked several times why your "you have to try if you want to succeed" point demonstrated that Jim-Me's original argument doesn't hold water. You don't seem to feel a need to answer those questions.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Some clarifications, some responses.
First, I want to clarify what my argument is:
I believe, that if someone knows what they want to achieve, has the necessary competency, is determined to achieve it, and works towards it intelligently, they have a good chance of achieving what they want.
They also have an excellent chance of being prevented by circumstances beyond their control, or making a simple but large mistake that completely ruins their chances. What then? is the rest of your life meaningless because you missed the opportunity to do something? I beat my friend the Google exec in a programming contest in high school... am I now a waste of oxygen because I never tried to be a coder?
quote:A good example of this, is a baseball batter... a good hitter goes in with the necessary talent and preperation, makes adjustments along the way, and when the opportunity comes, swings at it.
Does he hit every time he swings? Of course not. Excellent batters have averages around 0.4.
no batters have averages around .4. In fact you can count the number of batters with career averages that even round to .4 on one hand without using your thumb.
But that reminds me of another true story... one that has been an inspiration to me for my entire adult life. My uncle never heard of baseball before moving to America from Mexico as a little boy. In the 9th grade, he tried out for his high school team and was among the first people cut. So, he got a tennis ball, drew a square on the side of the school in chalk, and went out and threw pitches at the square every day, rain or shine, for 45 minutes. Eventually, other kids joined in and they developed a game where they would hit against each other with the chalk strike zone. As a sophmore, he made the varisty at Burbank High. He had a 92 mph fast ball and went to UCLA on a scholarship where he had a pretty stellar pitching career and also batted .384 (I don't recall his pitching stats). He was drafted by the Kansas City Royals and in 1976 moved up from Double A to join the team in Sarasota for Spring Training. As they were relaxing and playing basketball, someone blocked one of his shots and tore his rotator cuff, ending his career.
This is an example of what you are talking about... he worked his way into the very elite of what he wanted to do-- and that is inspiring. The part you seem to be unaware of is that he then lost it all in a fluke accident. Achievement isn't guaranteed, failure, however, almost certainly is, at some point. I guarantee you there are a lot more people like my uncle than there are people like Pedro Martinez.
quote:What I AM trying to say, however, is that none of those home-runs were hit while trying for a bunt. So, if you want to hit a home-run, you gotta swing.
Also true, but what you seem to be ignoring is that there are hundreds of ways to be useful to a team without ever hitting a home run. Bunting well is far more useful than hitting for power when you don't have it.
quote: Clearly, if someone's been sent out to bunt goes out, swings and misses he's missed the point [if he swings and connects he's a hero].
No. He's a lucky stiff that will find his sorry, selfish, know-it-all butt riding the pine in short order. I also seriously object to your comparison of running a good family as "bunting". If there is a "home run" in this game of life... if there is anything that makes the world a better place... it's giving your kids the opportunity and understanding to go out and be good people. This is our largest disconnect in the entire issue.
Watch, "It's a Wonderful Life" sometime. Tell me, who did more to make the world a better place? George Bailey or his little brother? George Bailey or his friend Sam? George Bailey or Mr. Potter? Of them, George was the one who swallowed his ambition and did what he did because he ought to, rather than because he wanted to make a difference in the world. You want a hero? You want someone who makes a difference? George Bailey is your man... and his willingness to give up his dreams is what makes him so.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:Is Abhi Irami?
Shot in the dark: Abhi is Jhai's husband.
wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
Jhai mentioned you as the boyfriend and fiance at least twice in the last year or two and mentioned recently that you and she got married, so yeah, it has been mentioned by her. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Excellent post, Jim. Especially this:
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: You want a hero? You want someone who makes a difference? George Bailey is your man... and his willingness to give up his dreams is what makes him so.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
I honestly don't understand the aversion against being ambitious, and trying to chase a dream.
I've said repeatedly, that [obviously] failure is a possibility, but just because it can happen doesnt mean we don't try at all.
The family thing seems to come up every time too... even though I say repeatedly that working for the good of your family is also a worthwhile pursuit.
But tell me this, would the world have been a better place to live in if MLK, Gandhi or Mandela had put their families before their nations? Isn't uplifting your entire people greater than just your family?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The aversion is not against ambition. My aversion, at least, is against your judgmental, prideful condemnations of people getting advanced degrees without having found their life's work yet.
It is also against the either/or scenario you present of family and/or greatness.
Would the world have been a better place if MLK didn't cheat on his wife? Yes, I think it would. Looking inward and looking outward are not mutually exclusive.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Very well put. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I've said repeatedly, that [obviously] failure is a possibility, but just because it can happen doesnt mean we don't try at all.
And NO ONE HERE has said that we don't or shouldn't try at all. Your repeated assertions in that people should try make it strongly appear as if you think posters are saying that people shouldn't try. It also appears as if you are saying that someone who, for example, finds a good career for supporting his family and relegates his more impractical dreams to hobby or part-time status hasn't tried. It's that aspect that I think most people are responding to strongly.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: What's with the wiser than thou attitude?
Perhaps it's in response to the attitude you've been expressing all thread?
Rivka, I simply asked to be explained the "point of the story" that I'm supposed to have missed. And yet, even after asking thrice, there's been no response.
Because all you've demonstrated so far in this thread is your complete and utter inability to engage in a good faith discussion.
I've patiently posted several times with direct questions that you have yet to answer, so I don't really feel the need to waste my time attempting to banter with you anymore.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
re: Mexican fisherman story
Thanks, Jim-Me! I loved the story.
Plus, I even like to fish. (Not really, but we're trying to speak entirely in analogy here, right?)
-Liz (hit a single and didn't get tagged out?)
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
As quid said, but mainly it's because Jhai's a friend of mine on facebook.
Facebook, as you know, knows all. Couple that with my problem with not forgetting strange and trivial bits of info, and voila -- a magic trick. Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
Fact is, most people DON'T WANT to be different. Most people WANT the cookiecutter lives, the house and kids, the job, etc that society says they should have. They are given goals by society, and follow the paths to those goals. And unfortunately, succeeding in those goals and having the things society tells you you should have doesn't lead to happyness.
And that bs about not letting your job define you? Just that, bs. You spend your life working at a job. You can do it and not enjoy what you are doing just to get the paycheck, or do what you love and get the paycheck. Some people don't care about the happiness or enjoyment of the job, and that's okay for them. I do care, and it's important to me.
I went the uncommon route, and I got crap for it all the way. I started my own business and dropped out of school before I was finished. Although I eventually got my degree, what I do is not in my field of study. When I dropped out, I did so because I wasn't fitting in to what everyone else was doing in that degree path, and frankly I didn't want the same things that the rest of my peers did. The business I started isn't a glamorous business, isn't the normal 9 to 5 job, and isn't something most people would want to do. Yet everyday I work I'm happy, every day I enjoy what I'm doing, and I've got the same things that other people have, yet I got them on my own terms. And when I see these miserable 'career' people who work jobs they hate, and get laid off because they don't control their own future, I just don't get it.
You can live the life you want. Problem is, most people don't want anything different and allow the rest of the world to guide their lives for them.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:wow, that's kinda scary... to my knowledge, neither I nor "Jhai" has ever mentioned this...
As quid said, but mainly it's because Jhai's a friend of mine on facebook.
Facebook, as you know, knows all. Couple that with my problem with not forgetting strange and trivial bits of info, and voila -- a magic trick. :)
Haha, yeah facebook is pretty much awesome :)
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I like school. Therefore, why stop with graduation? Plus, although I'm not sure, I think I want to do scientific research. Advanced degrees sort of help with that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Personally, I'm very happy with my "cookie cutter" life with my wife, family, church, and hobbies (in no particular order).
I don't need to be a hero at work. Heck, if I could swing it, I'd quit work altogether.
But I didn't let the world choose this life for me. I consciously chose it, every step of the way. It's what I wanted and still want.
[ January 19, 2007, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Personally, I'm very happy with my "cookie cutter" life with my wife, family, church, and hobbies (in no particular order).
I don't need to be a hero at work. Heck, if I could swing it, I'd quit work altogether.
But I didn't let the world choose this life for me. I consciously chose it, every step of the way. It's what I wanted and still want.
You obviously didn't read Stihl's last post carefully enough.
quote: You can live the life you want. Problem is, most people don't want anything different and allow the rest of the world to guide their lives for them.
See, if you have the life you want, that's because you've allowed the world to guide your choices. Only by selecting the life that Stihl wants can you truly become a self-actualized individual.
I don't know how you missed that.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Oh, damn, that explains a lot of my problems.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: And that bs about not letting your job define you? Just that, bs. You spend your life working at a job. You can do it and not enjoy what you are doing just to get the paycheck, or do what you love and get the paycheck. Some people don't care about the happiness or enjoyment of the job, and that's okay for them. I do care, and it's important to me.
I went the uncommon route, and I got crap for it all the way. I started my own business and dropped out of school before I was finished. Although I eventually got my degree, what I do is not in my field of study. When I dropped out, I did so because I wasn't fitting in to what everyone else was doing in that degree path, and frankly I didn't want the same things that the rest of my peers did. The business I started isn't a glamorous business, isn't the normal 9 to 5 job, and isn't something most people would want to do. Yet everyday I work I'm happy, every day I enjoy what I'm doing, and I've got the same things that other people have, yet I got them on my own terms. And when I see these miserable 'career' people who work jobs they hate, and get laid off because they don't control their own future, I just don't get it.
Do you have any idea how much like an Amway salesman you sound?
I work a job that, well, I don't hate it, but it's definitely not entertaining at all.
I have been laid off twice... both at very inopportune times.
I certainly don't control my future... in fact, I am scraping to make it to this year's tax return.
I also almost certainly have less "things" than you. Most of what I did have, I've had to sell in the last six months as my financial burden has become more and more desperate.
...And you can take your better-than-me attitude and blow it out your ass. I am making the life I want and, for the first time in a long time, doing a pretty damned good job of it. You see, I *don't* define myself by my job. It's not BS; it's how I LIVE. I don't define myself by my possessions or my bank account either. If you don't get it, that's not my problem, but if you want to sit there and act like you're a better person than I am because you successfully put your little business together and I work in a cube farm then damned straight you are going to get a hostile response.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*applauds*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
If so, I need a scepter.
-pH
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
It doesn't work that way. You're scum, like the rest of us.
Any other questions?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
No. It makes you the batting coach. I think.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Checkout the webpage listed in his profile. Doesn't seem to promote the same values this poster does.
Jim- I think you're the kind of person that makes this world a better place.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
hey, i dont think stihl1 was trying to make a personal attack against anyone.
what i and [i think] he are trying to promote is an entrepreneurial mind-set, trying to emphasize the importance of taking risks, and trying to make a difference in the world.
Without the risk-takers, our society would not progress. This perhaps why India and China are suddenly making such an impact on the world economy... the empowerment and encouragement of entrepreneurial individuals who want to make a difference.
[edit: parenthesis]
[ January 19, 2007, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Abhi ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I'm all for the entrepenurial mindset. I have had a couple of ideas for little cottage industries myself. One ended up requiring too much capital, the other would (currently) mean more risk than I am comfortable taking with 5 people counting on me and a 6th betting pretty heavily on me as well.
But there's a strong undercurrent in both of your posts that people without an entrepenurial mindset are just running in hamster cages... and that is not only flat untrue, but offensive.
If you want to be Dynamic and a doer, that's great. Move and shake to your heart's content.
But don't assume we are lazy and unmotivated because we don't share your definition of success and making an impact.
Edit: Thanks Blacwolve-- you are awfully sweet... just remember I talk a better game than I play, too (like most people). It's easy to stand up here and talk about my ideals. Living them is difficult and I can be as shallow and selfish as the next person.
[ January 19, 2007, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Liz B:
quote:If people who start their own businesses are the greatest human beings, and my job is to help people start/manage their own business, does that make me the doubleplusgreatest human being?
No. It makes you the batting coach. I think.
But...but.....I rule them!
-pH
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
quote:I honestly don't understand the aversion against being ambitious, and trying to chase a dream.
quote: The aversion is not against ambition. My aversion, at least, is against your judgmental, prideful condemnations of people getting advanced degrees without having found their life's work yet.
I think that my aversion is that you are defining ambition only in your own terms, which I think seems to be financial success to a large part. I think, if we'd been friends, you would have said the same thing about me a few years ago. After finishing college I went right into a grad degree. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it but I'd applied for jobs and found *none* of the offers appealing. And a few years ago, I might have agreed with you. But now, after being in grad school for almost 5 years and having a lot of time to think on it I have a few thoughts.
For me, getting a PhD in Computer Science was really ambitious. Actually getting a job and trying a more conventional career would have been auto-pilot. I chose computer science because I didn't think an English degree would do much for me and I found it interesting and most of all very challenging. But I was never in *love* with it and on bad days I'd complain about how awful it was constantly. Now, when I look back I think I was secretly trying for something I never realized and would not have even admitted to myself. And now, that dream has faded/changed I'm not sure what I want to do. But, I think that while it does worry me, I'm also realizing that you can't see the path your life will lead. And I will do something that I never could have done without this degree and it will be something really interesting.
But, at the time I could have never articulated that. Instead I would have told you, oh I didn't want to get a job. When the real answer was those jobs didn't work for me so I grasped for something better.
I know that this isn't true for everyone. But, when you're judging your friends. Remember that a masters program is only 2 years and that maybe they're hoping it'll open some door that wasn't open now.
A person's job really don't define them. The person they are defines them. A job makes up part of that. But so does the way you live your life. One can be sucessful in so many ways, emotionally, intellecutally, financially and so on. I think a life well lived should never sacrifice any of these for another.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Without the risk-takers, our society would not progress.
Yes, but without the people who are willing to forego some of the upside in exchange for taking less of the downside - and such people are risk-takers, too - entrepreneurs would have no one to hire and, likely, very few customers to sell their goods/services to.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: just remember I talk a better game than I play, too (like most people).
Yeah, but most people don't have five such wonderful, intelligent, loving, loved, well-behaved and well-parented kids.
When I think of wonderful parents who I aspire to be like some day, you and Boon are at the top of the list.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: But tell me this, would the world have been a better place to live in if MLK, Gandhi or Mandela had put their families before their nations? Isn't uplifting your entire people greater than just your family?
You don't have children, do you?
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
Stihl1, What right do you have to thrust your own perception of greatness and ambition upon someone else? If the "cookiecutter" lifestyle is something that they acheived, are proud of, and currently maintain (mr_porteiro_head), then what is the problem?
I completely understand what it means to take risks, and how that can improve much else, should the attempt be successful. However, Not everyone has world-changing ambition and goals. Still, many people have taken big risks that have as much of an impact in their immediate world.
As for MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela, they believed in making the world better because they wanted their families to have something better. They cared about their people and their families.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I don't get why starting your own business is somehow more noble than other careers. It's not necessarily even more useful to society. For many, it doesn't even lead to more wealth than other jobs might.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I don't get why starting your own business is somehow more noble than other careers. It's not necessarily even more useful to society. For many, it doesn't even lead to more wealth than other jobs might.
While I don't think it's necessarily nobler, the entrepreneurial spirit adds a lot to society. About half the new jobs in our economy are created by small business owners. It's also a great (but not guaranteed) way to build wealth. An astounding percentage (a percentage which I cannot recall right now) of millionaires started their own business.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: As for MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela, they believed in making the world better because they wanted their families to have something better. They cared about their people and their families.
This is incorrect. I don't know a lot about MLK or Mandela's personal lives [though I'm made to believe MLK cheated on his wife] I have read a LOT about Gandhi and I know that he did not do a lot for his family, and they were largely neglected in his efforts for a better India.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:This is incorrect. I don't know a lot about MLK or Mandela's personal lives [though I'm made to believe MLK cheated on his wife] I have read a LOT about Gandhi and I know that he did not do a lot for his family, and they were largely neglected in his efforts for a better India.
Either way, it's still a false dichotomy. Success doesn't necessarily preclude being close to your family. There is some give-and-take there, but one doesn't have to completely lose out.
I know that I've been less able to pull off crazy, heroic stunts at work since my daughter was born. Making sure I'm there to help bring her up and deal with her babyish demands is way more important to me than my job — EVEN THOUGH I've got a very strong drive to achieve something great, and have thrown myself into a highly-competitive creative profession that demands quite a bit.
My point is that I'm doing both. Sometimes the baby makes it harder for me to do something at work that I wanted to do. Sometimes work demands something I can't avoid, and it takes me away from the baby and causes me to lean more on my wife to care for her.
If I ever let one of them completely lose out, the consequences for both would be disastrous. I could lose my job and my family's livelihood if I stop keeping up at the office, not to mention missing out on something I've always wanted to do ... and I would be absolutely miserable and useless at work if I missed out on my family's life too much.
ANYWAY, this is all beside the main point of the thread. What I really don't get is why anyone thinks they need to judge the "follow your most ambitious dreams" strategy as better or worse than the "construct a good life for yourself and run with it" strategy. Frankly, I think we depend heavily on both. If we didn't have the dreamers, our entire civilization would stagnate. But if everybody who DIDN'T become famous or a millionaire or otherwise astonishingly successful thought that their life was an abject failure, then this would be a world filled with nasty, bitter people.
We should promote the idea that people should pursue their dreams, INCLUDING the dream of having a quiet, simple, contented life. In fact, I wouldn't mind a bit if that simple life were considered the grandest of dreams, and if people bent on other forms of success were considered the oddballs, as they have throughout much of history. We enjoy that sort of distinction, anyway Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
Oh, this is SO going to be fun. Let's begin.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Personally, I'm very happy with my "cookie cutter" life with my wife, family, church, and hobbies (in no particular order).
I don't need to be a hero at work. Heck, if I could swing it, I'd quit work altogether.
But I didn't let the world choose this life for me. I consciously chose it, every step of the way. It's what I wanted and still want.
This is entirely the point of my post, but you didn't get the point. Like I said, most people want the average life, and that makes them happy. And to me, the average life IS cookie cutter, and I would not be happy living that kind of life. If you do, I am happy for you. And contrary to what people think, I did not degrade or look down upon that life. I just think I would be miserable leading that kind of life. Furthermore, I firmly believe it's not necessary to go down the average path to be successful or happy.
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: See, if you have the life you want, that's because you've allowed the world to guide your choices. Only by selecting the life that Stihl wants can you truly become a self-actualized individual.
I don't know how you missed that.
Didn't say that, and you missed the whole point of my post. I don't care what kind of life you lead if you're happy. The problem is, as I see it, too many people chose the average life because that is what society and the world tells us we should have, and they aren't happy. Nice try though.
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: Do you have any idea how much like an Amway salesman you sound?
I work a job that, well, I don't hate it, but it's definitely not entertaining at all.
I have been laid off twice... both at very inopportune times.
I certainly don't control my future... in fact, I am scraping to make it to this year's tax return.
I also almost certainly have less "things" than you. Most of what I did have, I've had to sell in the last six months as my financial burden has become more and more desperate.
...And you can take your better-than-me attitude and blow it out your ass. I am making the life I want and, for the first time in a long time, doing a pretty damned good job of it. You see, I *don't* define myself by my job. It's not BS; it's how I LIVE. I don't define myself by my possessions or my bank account either. If you don't get it, that's not my problem, but if you want to sit there and act like you're a better person than I am because you successfully put your little business together and I work in a cube farm then damned straight you are going to get a hostile response.
I don’t know what an Amway salesman sounds like, so no. I’m not selling anything. I never acted like I was better than anyone. I just posted the facts that it's possible to obtain goals in life while still traveling your own path and making your own way in life. People can believe their job does not define them, but fact is you spend half your life working your job. It does define you and affect every aspect of your life. Talk to someone that hates their job and see how that hatred permeates them and everything they talk about comes back to that. I know, I had a job I absolutely hated and it was poisonous to my life. If you're miserable in your work, then odds are you will have a miserable life. I don't understand people who work miserable jobs and then blame that on the fact that life has dictated that they can't escape that because of the mortgage, supporting their family, etc. People jump into having mortgages and families and obligations willingly. If people don’t realize that if you have a miserable job, having those obligations will shackle them to that job even more, then that's their fault.
I do find it interesting that you say “I am making the life I want and, for the first time in a long time, doing a pretty damned good job of it.” You want to have the life you want. So do I. What’s the difference?
Also, I haven't ever been laid off because my job is in my hands and I don't have to depend on the a boss's bottom line dictating my paycheck. That makes me feel great when I go to bed at night.
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Stihl1, What right do you have to thrust your own perception of greatness and ambition upon someone else? If the "cookiecutter" lifestyle is something that they acheived, are proud of, and currently maintain (mr_porteiro_head), then what is the problem?
There is none. If your life makes you happy, rock on. The mainstream cookiecutter life would not make me happy, and I do not understand that mentality. That does not mean I look down upon those that do, I just don't understand living the same life everyone else does. And I’ve never thrust my perception of greatness on anyone. That’s something you made up.
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: I completely understand what it means to take risks, and how that can improve much else, should the attempt be successful. However, Not everyone has world-changing ambition and goals. Still, many people have taken big risks that have as much of an impact in their immediate world.
I don't have world changing ambition either. In fact, I have very little ambition. The driving force behind me starting my own business was the realization I can't stand being told what to do, and I wanted to be the one making the decisions and telling other people what to do. I have no intentions on changing the world, just doing what I want to do and living life on my terms.
I can't quite understand why people were so upset by what I said. My main point was, most people want to be average and lead average lives. If that makes you happy, then like I said rock on. When I started my business, I had a partner. He never wanted to put time and energy back into the business once things took off. He wanted to take back out of the business to fuel his own life, wanted more and more time off, while I wanted to put more time and energy and money into the business to keep it growing. So instead of continuing to grow, it stagnated and eventually things started to decline. Which meant he was making less, and he had to work harder. He eventually quit and went off to work for someone else. Now he’s got a job where he works 5 days a week, doing what he’s told to do. He got married, just had a kid and is building a house. He’s got everything he wanted, he leads an average life, and is completely happy, according to him. I look at what he’s got and although I don’t understand it, I’ve got no problem with it. It’s because of him that I came to understand most people don’t want anything other than the average. And I’m not like most people.
My problem is with people who aren't happy and give the tired, lame old excuse that their familial and personal obligations hold them shackled to that life and some miserable job. That's not an excuse, that's a cop out.
Most people never look up out of their lives to take a look around them to see what they are doing, bother to take a minute to think where exactly the choices they make are taking them. You go to school and get a degree, then get a job right away to make money so you can start buying things like everyone else has. You date people because you want to have the same relationships others have and the things other couples have. Then you get married because everyone else in relationships get married. Then you have kids because when you're married you have kids. Then you have to buy a house because when you have kids you have to have a house. Then all of a sudden you realize you hate your job and you have to work it because you've got kids, a house, 2 car bills, and 3 credit cards to pay off. You can't quit and go after the life you dreamed about when you first entered college, because you have obligations. So you're stuck. Congrats, you've got the same life 95% of Americans have.
That wouldn't make me happy. Some people it wouldn't bother, and if so, enjoy. I looked up during my senior year in college, with 4 classes left to take, and I decided I didn't like where my life was leading me. And it alarmed me that so many other people were just following that path like water traveling down a stream. So I stopped what I was doing and struck out on my own path so that I'd be happy. Although people tried to discourage me and tell me I can't do that, I did do that and was successful. Now I'm doing what I want, I've still got many of the same things the mainstream Joe has, but I got them on my terms.
Do I think that makes me better? No. I do think it makes me a whole lot more satisfied and happier that I've traveled my own path and made my own way to get where I am in life, than I would if I had a miserable job that led me to this point in life. If my happiness and confidence and sense of satisfaction upsets anyone, then that's on them. IMO, the only reason it upsets anyone is because it alarms them to realize they stayed in the mainstream and floated along in cruise control instead of doing what they wanted.
And if I sound condescending or smug, then I apologize. I somehow can't help feeling good that I am in this position. For so long I heard about how I should quit what I'm doing and go get a regular job, do what other people do for a living, give up on my dreams. For 10 years I heard that I'm wasting my time, cut it out. Ironically, from the same people who complain about their miserable jobs, complain they don't have time to do what they want, and make a huge deal about not being happy and how much they want to get an extra day off to get outside and enjoy the weather. I've got everything I wanted, I love my work, and I'm outside all the time. It puzzles me why people want to assault my lifestyle, when it's everything they want. So yeah, I might take an extra ounce of satisfaction about my position in life right now.
[ January 21, 2007, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: stihl1 ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: It puzzles me why people want to assault my lifestyle, when it's everything they want. So yeah, I might take an extra ounce of satisfaction about my position in life right now.
What bothers me isn't that extra ounce of satisfaction you are taking, but that it is being taken out of others in your posts. That is, your delight isn't just expressed as delight in what you have, but in what you have as opposed to or in contrast to what others have.
That's still being defined by the cookie-cutter world, stihl1. It still looms over you, and you seem to still be lashing out at it through others. [Edited to add: And I expect the "assault" you are feeling isn't directed at the life you are living, but at the way you are setting up a characterization of others' lives and choices as a foil for your own. People don't tend to react kindly to being treated as objects, understandably.]
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I don't think of myself as "being a doctor." I think of myself as "practicing medicine." It is a big difference to me, and it underscores the distinction between being defined by my work and having work be a big part of my life. I would be troubled by the former, but I happily embrace the latter.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I can't quite understand why people were so upset by what I said. My main point was, most people want to be average and lead average lives.
This is the heart of it, I think: your assumption that their lives are "average" (with the implicit corollary assumption that yours is above average).
quote:IMO, the only reason it upsets anyone is because it alarms them to realize they stayed in the mainstream and floated along in cruise control instead of doing what they wanted.
I seriously doubt people are upset by your "happiness and confidence and sense of satisfaction." It's more likely that you wear this opinion like a banner:
quote:Most people never look up out of their lives to take a look around them to see what they are doing, bother to take a minute to think where exactly the choices they make are taking them. You go to school and get a degree, then get a job right away to make money so you can start buying things like everyone else has. You date people because you want to have the same relationships others have and the things other couples have. Then you get married because everyone else in relationships get married. Then you have kids because when you're married you have kids. Then you have to buy a house because when you have kids you have to have a house. Then all of a sudden you realize you hate your job and you have to work it because you've got kids, a house, 2 car bills, and 3 credit cards to pay off. You can't quit and go after the life you dreamed about when you first entered college, because you have obligations. So you're stuck. Congrats, you've got the same life 95% of Americans have.
It's also the fact that you've only counted the most superficial things - financial status, type of job - in declaring that most people's lives are the "same."
When people get the impression that you've ignored a large part of what makes lives unique and satisfying, they're likely getting it from smug statements like the one immediately above.
There is no such thing as an "average" life. There are fairly large scale similarities between many (but not anywhere near 95%) lives and the goals for those lives - work for someone else, 5 days a week, own a home, two cars, get married, have kids. It's when people try to define the lives based on this relatively unimportant framework, rather than the near-infinite number of individual choices, preferences, and other factors that are the most important core of what defines a life.
You've brought this back full circle to Jim-Me's original point: you look at people who have gross similarities in their occupation and financial lives and say they are living average lives. To do so, you have defined those lives by superficial measures.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Hi Stihl.
In my post I'm assuming that you want to know why people are finding you offensive, so I'm going to write about tone. If you really don't care why people find you offensive, then please feel free to skip this.
quote: The average life IS cookie cutter, and I would not be happy living that kind of life. If you do, I am happy for you. And contrary to what people think, I did not degrade or look down upon that life.
The term "cookie cutter" itself is condescending, and implies that all those who have a family, a house, and a job where they aren't their own boss are identical. This also implies that they are identical in mindset. Perhaps you don't intend to imply this; your word choices do, however.
quote: I don't care what kind of life you lead if you're happy. The problem is, as I see it, too many people chose the average life because that is what society and the world tells us we should have, and they aren't happy.
This implies that you know why people make the choices they do, particularly people who didn’t make your choices. Making sweeping assumptions about other people’s motivations is always annoying to other people.
quote: If your life makes you happy, rock on. The mainstream cookiecutter life would not make me happy, and I do not understand that mentality. That does not mean I look down upon those that do, I just don't understand living the same life everyone else does. And I’ve never thrust my perception of greatness on anyone. That’s something you made up.
Once again, Stihl, tone is everything. When you use the word “mentality,” it implies that everyone (other than you and people like you) has the same mindset, same thinking, same motivations. The word “mentality” also has a connotation of being unthinking. (Notice I didn’t say denotation.) Also, when you say you “don’t understand living the same life everyone else does,” you imply that everyone lives the same life (other than you and people like you). All of us have our own successes, tragedies, idiosyncrasies as individuals or families. “Same house/ job/ # of people in the family” is not the same thing as “same life.”
quote: So you're stuck. Congrats, you've got the same life 95% of Americans have.
That wouldn't make me happy. Some people it wouldn't bother, and if so, enjoy.
Using the word “stuck,” the sarcastic “congrats,” the accusatory use of the second person…all implications that the choices that aren’t yours are unpleasant. I’m also going to point out that you said this lifestyle wouldn’t “bother” some people. That implies that it is something inherently bothersome, but some people just don’t notice. (Unlike you!)
I believe what you really want to say is that you have found a way to be happy which is different from what others wanted for you. That IS wonderful, and you have a right to be satisfied. I just think you should be aware that your profound distaste for what others wanted for you is translating into condescension. Since you say you “didn’t look down upon that [cookie-cutter] life,” I assume that you didn’t mean to do so and might appreciate some insight into why your comments read as condescending.
Regards,
LizB
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I've noticed that in general, I tend to assume that other people don't think about their lives as much as I do. But if I actually get to know those other people, I learn that my superficial opinion of them was not correct. To most people, their lives are as important to them as mine is to me, and they put just as much thought into their lives as I do.
I think assuming that no one else has thought their actions through as much as I have is a very easy trap to fall into if I want to feel better about myself at other's expense. Every once in a while, it might even be true. But not very frequently.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stihl1: My problem is with people who aren't happy and give the tired, lame old excuse that their familial and personal obligations hold them shackled to that life and some miserable job. That's not an excuse, that's a cop out.
I believe there are two kinds people who are like this. One is the type of person who doesn't want to do more than the absolute minimum to survive. They have no desire to do more than have an easy job where they are paid more than they are worth. The type of job where they can punch out at 5:00 and go home and wonder where they went wrong. This type of person expects things to come easy and blames the World when things don't fall right in to their lap. I share your frustration with this type of person. I know people like this and I wonder how they can go through life this way. There is nothing you can do but not allow them to interfere in your life.
The other type of person like this is the kind who can't chase after their dream or live the way they wanted to because family obligations force them to do something they don't want to do. In this case, it may be because they had a family early and had to after those obligations, or that they weren't prepared to do what they wanted.In this case, You can hardly blame the person for doing what they had to. I know people this, namely, my Father. He is capable of doing so much, but our family is large and he has to be the provider.
quote:I don't have world changing ambition either. In fact, I have very little ambition. The driving force behind me starting my own business was the realization I can't stand being told what to do, and I wanted to be the one making the decisions and telling other people what to do. I have no intentions on changing the world, just doing what I want to do and living life on my terms.
I completely get you here. I don't want a boss, either, but I have one. I hate my job, and I will be quitting in six months or so to go back to school full time. What I am doing now is a sacrifice I have to make so that I can have the life I want later. I don't like, but I know why I'm doing it. If I had a family to take care of, I would stick to where I am so that I could have the ability to take care of them, all the time hoping that something better would show up. Of course, I would be trying to impress my manager and be doing something to make myself more valuable.
quote:Originally posted by Stihl1: And if I sound condescending or smug, then I apologize. I somehow can't help feeling good that I am in this position. For so long I heard about how I should quit what I'm doing and go get a regular job, do what other people do for a living, give up on my dreams. For 10 years I heard that I'm wasting my time, cut it out. Ironically, from the same people who complain about their miserable jobs, complain they don't have time to do what they want, and make a huge deal about not being happy and how much they want to get an extra day off to get outside and enjoy the weather. I've got everything I wanted, I love my work, and I'm outside all the time. It puzzles me why people want to assault my lifestyle, when it's everything they want. So yeah, I might take an extra ounce of satisfaction about my position in life right now.
The people who tell you to do something else are stupid for trying to interfere in your life, but you know that already. I'm happy that you are doing exactly what you want to do. It's just that not everyone gets to be like this, and it isn't always their choice.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
stihl, like the first poster, it is not your dreams or you life that people find so rude and off=putting. It is the smug sense of superiority you feel and project that degrades those around you.
It is also that you are so wrong about what other people feel about their lives. Your experience is not the definitive one, and whether or not you want to believe it, you do NOT define other people's lives for them. When you not only define their lives but do it pejoritively, you will be seen as a delightful combination of WRONG, BLIND, and ARROGANT in your delusions.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
Well, despite what people read into my post, I do not think being average is somehow lesser. Nor do I think being un-average (if that's a word) is better. I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I chose a different life or path to that. I just think I'm different, and my point is there is nothing wrong with being different. Nor is there nothing wrong with being average. The point is, however, most people just want to be average. We need average people the same way we need un-average people. Fact is though, most people will follow the average life and very few will elect the different. The reason I elected to follow a different path was I couldn't be happy with following along with everyone else. To me, the average life, the normal life is defined by other people and societal expectations. There's nothing I hate more than expectations.
Perhaps my personal bias and distaste for being average or uniform and following along with the pack has bled into my writing here. Fact is, I personally do dislike the idea of being swept up and being like everyone else. As I said, when I took a moment to look around and wonder what the hell I was doing with my life, it seemed like everyone else was content with just going along the established routes. Not because it seemed like that to me, but because I had discussions with my peers, I tried to explore my feelings with others to see if they had the same feelings. Most didn't. Most people wanted to do their schoolwork, get their degeree, move on to the next level and get a job or more school. When I asked why, because that's what they were supposed to do. But why? Because it's what you DO.
I didn't want to do what everyone did. So I didn't.
Then again when I made the decision to start my own business, I got the same kind of reisistance. Most people couldn't understand it. Why put in the extra work and time and effort? Why not just collect your paycheck and go home and chill? I couldn't settle for that. I couldn't settle for doing what the boss said, and following along. I wanted to be the boss, I wanted to do the extra work so I could build the business and make the decisions.
So from my experience, people just want to do the average. And that's not bad if that makes them happy. Maybe some people have other goals, maybe just being average and having kids and a leading an average life is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I suppose someone with different values would think I was crazy. More than one co-worker that would rather spend their time and effort elsewhere have thought me crazy for putting in so much time and effort to build a business. I guess it goes both ways.
I never wanted to be a 9 to 5 guy that followed orders with 2 cars and a house and credit cards. I wanted to do things for myself. That's what I value and that's what is imporant to me. And maybe I'm overlooking all the little things that makes one's life different and exciting. BUT, the title in the thread was "careeres in auto pilot" and the early discussions focused on people who stagnated and just work a job for the sake of working a job.
I still stick by my point though. Most people lead average lives and want to lead average lives. That's fine. If you lead an average life and you're miserable, there is no reason for you to continue on that path.
Frankly, I think too many people are reading into my comments and taking it personally. It's not meant to be personal, sorry.
[ January 24, 2007, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: stihl1 ]
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Most people never look up out of their lives to take a look around them to see what they are doing, bother to take a minute to think where exactly the choices they make are taking them. You go to school and get a degree, then get a job right away to make money so you can start buying things like everyone else has. You date people because you want to have the same relationships others have and the things other couples have. Then you get married because everyone else in relationships get married. Then you have kids because when you're married you have kids. Then you have to buy a house because when you have kids you have to have a house. Then all of a sudden you realize you hate your job and you have to work it because you've got kids, a house, 2 car bills, and 3 credit cards to pay off. You can't quit and go after the life you dreamed about when you first entered college, because you have obligations. So you're stuck. Congrats, you've got the same life 95% of Americans have.
That wouldn't make me happy. Some people it wouldn't bother, and if so, enjoy.
I know your claiming it's not personal, Stihl, but this kind of talk makes specific claims about people. How do you know most people never look up from their lives? How do you know they just end up there because of societal expectations? I think you're making unfounded generalizations that several posters here have refuted from personal experience.
I don't have a problem with you saying "I'm glad I don't live an average life" (although I think "normal" would be a more accurate term for the sentiment you're trying to express. Average has a connotation that there are some better and some worse. For those of us living the life we choose and bring us happiness, it is the best life; it is also a normal life). My problem is your unfounded assertion that the reason "most people" end up in the lives they do is because they don't think ahead about the things they really want.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:My problem is your unfounded assertion that the reason "most people" end up in the lives they do is because they don't think ahead about the things they really want.
That's it exactly. You are assuming that people who have the two cars and a 9to5 job are there because they didn't think about it. THAT's what is arrogant and insulting - that anyone who thought about it would not have come to that conclusion, therefore those who came to that conclusion didn't think about it. You're simply wrong about that.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Then again when I made the decision to start my own business, I got the same kind of reisistance. Most people couldn't understand it. Why put in the extra work and time and effort? Why not just collect your paycheck and go home and chill? I couldn't settle for that. I couldn't settle for doing what the boss said, and following along. I wanted to be the boss, I wanted to do the extra work so I could build the business and make the decisions.
You keep coming back to this as if people are resistant to the idea of starting your own business. Most here aren't - I've done it and moved on, several people have or are in the process of doing it now, and several people have lived with people who have done it and made a conscious choice - fully informed - not to do it.
Even now, you call working 9-5 and getting a paycheck "settling." Further, your continued use of average is evidence that you're still defining people by their job.
Someone with a 9 to 5 job is not "average." People don't just "want to be average." They want to work the best job they can, with "best" being defined by hundreds of different variables for each and every person.
Your best job was to start a business. Good for you. Jim-Me's best job is telcom engineer. Mine was small business owner and is now lawyer. Others' best jobs might be "a tolerable place to earn some money while I consider my options" or "a place that lets me go to graduate school part-time while not accruing debt."
None of those people are "average." Some people might be closer to the average hours worked by an American worker, or closer to average salary, or closer to average benefits. Those attributes - considered individually - might be "average" for any given person. The job is not average. And, most importantly, the life is not average.
You've spent considerable energy selecting the career you want. I know others who have put that energy into something else - something you can't have because of your longer hours.
They're not being "average" by doing this.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Perhaps my personal bias and distaste for being average or uniform and following along with the pack has bled into my writing here.
hmmm... ya THINK?
Here's the deal that your missing though. Dagonee already said it precisely and I've been trying to give you examples. The person who trained me in Bradley Natural Childbirth (Yes, I'm a dad... I'm still Bradley-trained ) had a very succinct and catchy way of putting it that goes far beyond the scope of the class she was teaching: "you aren't giving birth to a textbook."
There is *no* average life. No one has 2.4 kids. I am in one sense, the epitome of the boring life that you so hate, but I have also done all kinds of things that almost no one gets the opportunity to do. I have played music on stage in front of approximately 3000 people, recorded 2 CDs of my own music, negotiated the rights to record a cover of "Come Together", been invited to perform on a couple of other people's CDs, and made a significant enough income from music that it fouled up my taxes something awful.
I have logged 2 hours of flight in a high-performance aircraft, pulled 7gs and been blacked out by a real live Tactcal Air Command (now Air Combat Command) fighter pilot, thrown swords at friends on a runway in front of thousands of people, had dinner with the Thunderbirds and a Medal of Honor Winner (James P. Fleming), and helped conduct basic training for about 60 cadets, all of the ones I saw 4 years later at their graduation remembered me (and were happy to see me there). One of them went on to be a Thunderbird. Another died in the line of duty.
I was a pretty decent pitcher with a mean curveball. I joined the wrestling team, with no experience whatsoever, at prep school and had an all-time great bout-- stealing the show at a Match where I was wrestling for last place in my weight class (I lost, too ). I will receive the rank of 3rd degree black belt in Tsoi Li Hoi Kung Fu on Feb 4th and can fight fairly well with both straight and curved swords, staff and spear, and know a couple of wicked baton techniques.
You wouldn't know any of that from looking at me, from looking at my cookie-cutter house, with my cookie-cutter Ford Windstar, in my nice quiet cookie-cutter neighborhood where my kids can freely and safely play in the cul-de-sac, and my 9 to 5 job straight off the pages of "Dilbert" or the screen of "Office Space".
And those aren't remotely the most significant things I've done... just the flashiest. Those people on the street who look "average" and "cookie cutter" to you? I would bet you any random one of them has done some things that you would never guess and scarcely believe. You would really do well to stop judging books by their covers.
The most significant thing I have done in my life was to stop doing that to myself.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Where might one hear that cover of Come Together?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I could e-mail you a low-quality mp3.
Or I could create a myspace account and host all my old stuff... I've been meaning to find a new place to have all our old stuff availible for download ever since mp3.com went away. Other things have taken precedence in the meantime. Anyone know how much junk myspace will let you store?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If you're short on space, I have plenty of storage on my site.
[ September 14, 2007, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
sweet, thanks for the offer! I'll e-mail you.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Myspace will let you upload 4 songs.
You might try soundclick, instead. It's much more artist oriented, and I'm not sure how many songs you can upload. I want to say at least ten, though. The only downside is that there's no built-in player, so you have to stream the songs. Which is slightly more of a hassle.
Either way, I'd like to hear whatever you get a chance to upload.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: I could e-mail you a low-quality mp3.
Or I could create a myspace account and host all my old stuff... I've been meaning to find a new place to have all our old stuff availible for download ever since mp3.com went away. Other things have taken precedence in the meantime. Anyone know how much junk myspace will let you store?
check out http://Titanize.com the "publish" feature lets you put any document / music file on the public library [library.titanize.com]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Nice to get reminded of your lifestory, Jim-Me. I, too, forget how much there is to my neighbors sometimes.
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quote:To me, the average life, the normal life is defined by other people and societal expectations. There's nothing I hate more than expectations.
If you don't want to live your life in terms of other people and societal expectations, then you shouldn't use other people and societal expectations as a referent. Judge your life merely on your own terms, not on what it looks like in contrast to others.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Nice to get reminded of your lifestory, Jim-Me.
CT, that was an incredibly gracious way to say "boy, you talk too much."
Ahbi and JT, thanks for the information.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Nice to get reminded of your lifestory, Jim-Me. I, too, forget how much there is to my neighbors sometimes.
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quote:To me, the average life, the normal life is defined by other people and societal expectations. There's nothing I hate more than expectations.
If you don't want to live your life in terms of other people and societal expectations, then you shouldn't use other people and societal expectations as a referent. Judge your life merely on your own terms, not on what it looks like in contrast to others.
Exactly. By defining yourself and others by the extent to which you believe they are defined by societal expectations, you're defining yourself by societal expectations.
Also, I really don't think there's as much societal opposition to starting your own business as you think there is.
Edit: Teh speeling!
-pH
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I don't get the resistance to the 9-to-5/paycheck situation. I grew up in a family that depended on an income that was sporadic, and fluctuated with each year's specific projects, successes, investments, etc ... and when I landed a job that provided me with a predictable monthly paycheck, yet still allowed me to do stimulating, creative work, I was ecstatic
There's nothing wrong with working for someone else if you like what you're doing, and you're satisfied with your life. Not owning my own game company isn't "settling", for me. It's letting someone else deal with a part of the business that I don't want to deal with, and letting me focus on the stuff I love — meanwhile, providing my family with the stability of a predictable income.
Even if I sell a novel or a screenplay, or do something else dramatic like that, there's no way I'm quitting my day job Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Dagonee has gracefully allowed me to host "Come Together" on his website.
Now that MP3.com is a free service again (after they deleted all my content) I plan on hosting all the other files there so you can enjoy them if you like.
Meanwhile Come Together Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Like Puppy, I LOVE having a steady paycheck. I love the security of being able to make a budget knowing exactly how much I have to work with. I love that I can think about my job and not about the money stuff that goes with my job. I love the freedom I have of actually leaving at five o'clock and then my time is my own.
My family owns a business, and it's wrenching. There are great rewards, but there are also great risks and costs in terms of iron stomachs and endless thinking. My dad is ALWAYS thinking about the shop. He goes on several vacations a year in order to unwind from it. On the upside, he has the income to go on several vacations a year. On the downside, he spends them trying to unstress from the pressure of running a successful business. And that's with the shop doing well! I can't imagine the horrors of an unsuccessful one.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Jim-Me, that's a rocking version of Come Together.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Thanks
So there's no confusion, I do bass guitar and backing vocals... none of the lead stuff is me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I have to say, Jim-Me, that the Touch may be the best cover band I have ever heard.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Not to be a tease, but my favorite cover was our version of "Head Like a Hole". Unfortunately we never recorded it (or any covers aside from "Come Together"), but playing that song on natural instruments gave it a punch and fury that suited it really well...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Eve's reaction to Come Together:
Eve: Is that Velvet Revolver? Me: No, it's Jim from Hatrack. Eve: No s&^%. Why's he in IT?
(Which was a little amusing given the context of the thread, which Eve wasn't aware of. We both agreed it was amazing.)
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