So, I'm wondering who amongst you Jatraqueros have been reading the Star Wars Expanded Universe lately, most especially some of the Yuuzhan Vong War books, the Dark Nest Crisis, and the Legacy of the Force novels.
It's something I'm finding interesting, how Jacen Solo is being treated in these novels, and I was wondering a bit if anyone else did, too
[ February 11, 2007, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*rolls eyes* At least they didn't have him massacre any "younglings" within ten minutes of his conversion. It still doesn't strike me as remotely credible, though.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
*nod* I'll admit that my perceptions might be tainted by the lack of him going pure dag-nasty evil within the first quarter-hour of his conversion.
But how do you mean not remotely credible though, Tom? There are some things I think are less credible, but overall it seems to smell right from a credibility angle.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
I've read up through the Yuuzhan Vong arc, and really enjoyed "Traitor." I think Stover's easily the best of the recent crop of Star Wars tie-in novelists (and his rendering of "Revenge of the Sith" better than the actual movie). He's very good at character studies, and I really dug his take on Jacen's utter mental transformation, as dark and brutal as it was. I was less fond of the follow-ups, which didn't really address the utter hell Jacen went through, and completely marginalized the character of Vergere, one of the most interesting purely-EU characters in Star Wars.
So Jacen goes completely to the dark side, eh? That's kind of disappointing, if true- I liked that the NJO books were moving toward a more "shades of gray" morality, and away from the light side/ dark side split of the movie.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think he should have gone dark side without any Sith tempter. He already had compromised several times, and tried to commit murder rather than arresting his second cousin because of a vision (note that visions of the future figured prominently in Anikin's turning, too).
It should have been a much more gradual turning, with much of the details kept the same - becoming the security chief, slowly resorting to questionable methods, etc.
It would have been far more convincing, and far less like "Anakin II."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm in the middle of the Dark Nest trilogy right now, and I think since the end of the Yuuzhan Vong/Beginning of Dark Nest, it was pretty easy to see what he was being pushed hard in that direction.
I'm a little surprised that Jacen, who was I would say probably the most level headed of all the young crop of Jedi, would be the one to fall, but I guess a lot changed during his little five year jaunt through the different force schools of the universe.
Also a little surprised it took him THAT long to get with Tenal Ka, and how easy it was once it happened. And a little surprise how postal he went on Ta'a Chume as well.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Because that arc's been done. Jacen's been tempted by the Dark Side and emerged out the other side, now confident that the Force is best expressed through a combination of both LS and DS elements -- that, in other words, both motivation and consequence are more relevant to "good" and "evil" than which "side" of the Force is used to manifest a given power. Moreover, the novels basically proved him right -- and while Luke remained skeptical, the weight of canon was basically on Jacen's side.
So someone shows up, whispers in his ear, flatters him a bit, gets all sneaky, and suddenly he decides that motive and consequence no longer matter, that passion and self-interest really ARE the best ways to channel power, that he needs to cut down the Jedi who witnesses his conversation because, hey, maybe all the time he spent learning to reconcile the two sides of the Force really WAS meaningless?
I mean, this kid was raised by Han Solo and Princess Leia, and mentored by Luke Skywalker. He's been tortured by the best, and has ALREADY had to justify his philosophy at least six times -- while in excruciating pain, at that. Is he really going to shrug and say, "Okay, yeah, I'll be a Sith, just for the experience, even if it means killing the following friends...?"
Add to this the fact that the entire Republic has now essentially gone through this same cycle of "move towards incompetent bureaucracy and/or ruthless authoritarianism, wrongly accuse one of the Heroes of Yavin of something, ostracize all of them, back the wrong horse, etc..." every decade for nearly fifty years now. You can't tell me that this sort of thing doesn't throw up red flags by now. I mean, somewhere on Coruscant, they should have a little wall like grocery stores have for posting bad checks, only with pieces of paper describing what NOT to do to empower tyrants.
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Now, all that said, I think it's pretty clear that there's an editorial remit which involves hammering the reset button on the SWU. And given that, I think they're doing a pretty good job of it. I don't find Jacen's position nearly as execrable as I found Anakin's, for example; you can even make the case that all those formative experiences didn't actually forge his personality but instead broke it, in which case this is just something we should expect.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:I mean, this kid was raised by Han Solo and Princess Leia, and mentored by Luke Skywalker. He's been tortured by the best, and has ALREADY had to justify his philosophy at least six times -- while in excruciating pain, at that. Is he really going to shrug and say, "Okay, yeah, I'll be a Sith, just for the experience, even if it means killing the following friends...?"
That is what throws up the most red flags for me personally. I don't get how it's probable that after ALL THAT, after losing his brother at Myrkr and feeling his sister's decline into madness through the Force, after all that he chooses, willingly, with a wee bit of effort from a Dark Force Jedi to go over to the dark side? It stretches my ability to go along quietly.
Where's Michael A. Stackpole with some Rogue Squadron v. Coralskippers books when I need him?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Tarrsk,
quote:He's very good at character studies, and I really dug his take on Jacen's utter mental transformation, as dark and brutal as it was.
I thoroughly enjoyed Traitor as well. It rung credible to me. To answer your other question, though, I wouldn't say he's gone completely dark yet. He's pretty far over the blurry, zig-zagging line between dark and light, though.
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Dagonee,
It's funny you should say that, because to me it has been a gradual thing. All the way back in Traitor, Jacen had taken some unequivocally clear steps towards being a dark Jedi, if not necessarily a Sith. He was under duress, and he later-kind of-repented of these steps, but they were taken, nonetheless.
---------
Lyrhawn,
quote:I'm a little surprised that Jacen, who was I would say probably the most level headed of all the young crop of Jedi, would be the one to fall, but I guess a lot changed during his little five year jaunt through the different force schools of the universe.
This is something I'd like to find out, too. When he leaves, he seems to at least acknowledge some sort of objective morality...or acknowledge the possibility, anyway. When he gets back, though, it quickly becomes clear that all things, with the exception of his lover and his offspring, are relative and of relative value.
quote:Also a little surprised it took him THAT long to get with Tenal Ka, and how easy it was once it happened. And a little surprise how postal he went on Ta'a Chume as well.
I actually wasn't surprised at how he treated Chume. I was sort of expecting it, because Jacen had a will-to-ruthlessness pretty much tattooed into his character under Vergere's attentions...and he hadn't experienced the sort of duress he'd felt under her care up until he was facing a cold-blooded woman whom he knew, no matter what he did that was 'by the book', would return to threaten his lover and his daughter.
quote:That is what throws up the most red flags for me personally. I don't get how it's probable that after ALL THAT, after losing his brother at Myrkr and feeling his sister's decline into madness through the Force, after all that he chooses, willingly, with a wee bit of effort from a Dark Force Jedi to go over to the dark side? It stretches my ability to go along quietly.
I don't think Jacen's experiences of Jaina's descent really mesh, for him anyway. Her descent was passionate, fiery, emotional, hate-filled. Those aren't things-except when his own are threatened-he really feels at all, anymore.
-------------
Tom,
I agree that Jacen's moral relativism was proven right as far as canon is concerned (also in my own personal judgement as well). But I don't think this is quite the same. The the arc you're describing, Jacen won out on using anger, fear, and hate as emotions to fuel very speficic uses of power in pursuit of a good cause.
Now, things are different. Now, Jacen is using cold-blooded rationality, and completely ruthless actions, in pursuit of a good cause. It's not something he's ever really done, before...but that kind of absolutism has been shown in him before, such as when he (rather stupidly, in my opinion) reverted to pacifism and inaction during the YV wars.
I certainly agree that there isn't enough foresight and psychology going into everyone's treatment of Jacen. It seems to me that after his experiences with the YV, it would be a given that he would have to be watched very, very, very closely and for a very long time. But for some reason-possibly due to his tutelage under Vergere, in which he's able to conceal his emotions and intent even from other Jedi-this is not done with him.
Perhaps it just didn't become clear to Jacen's peers for a long time that Jacen was, in fact, hiding emotions and intent practically all the time.
Heh, although perhaps my more favorable impressions here are because I kind of hit that reset button you mentioned myself. I just sort of took it as a given...perhaps because I found so many of the YV books mediocre at best, I somewhat picked and chose among them.
----------------
I also agree that his experiences under Vergere broke him, and made him into something new, something which could conceal with nearly total effectiveness just what he was feeling, thinking, planning, and wanting. It also set him apart from all of his peers, and while he was aware of that, none of them were until many years later.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Is this kid a descendant of Harrison Ford?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
LoL
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Or do they not take their father's surname? Because then he could, logically, be a child of Mark Hammill.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
And Carrie Fisher.
Rakeesh -
I have to be honest, I wasn't at all sad to see Ta'a Chume get what she got. I was a little surprised he pushed THAT hard, but that incident did a lot to drive home just how much of a different Jacen this is than the one we knew.
That woman has been annoying me since The Courtship of Princess Leia, and the Young Jedi Knights series. She dug her own grave.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
She'd been asking for it-quite literally-for a long time. She'd made it repeatedly, abundantly clear that the only way she would ever truly be dealt with would be in her own style. She just never really expected it from a Jedi Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Yay! I've been waiting for Jacen to hook up with Tenel Ka since the YA novels!
The universe past Zahn's 2nd Thrawn books I haven't read. I read some New Jedi Order stuff but it seemed like false conflict created a committee of writers so as to reap the financial rewards.
Jacen falling just reinforces that false creation of conflict. WTF, he was my alter-ego.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*steadfastly ignores all Star Wars books she wishes didn't exist*
I have my own canon, thank you.
*goes to read I, Jedi for the umpteen-gazillionth time*
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Amen to that, your majesty.
Amen.
You know I would LOVE to see a sequel written by Michael A. Stackpole. It can take place somewhere in or after the NJO series about Corran and his Jedi children from Corran's point of view. He can call it: We, Jedi.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree I don't like the lack of a Corran Horn perspective post I, Jedi.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I terms of Jacen's story-arch and Vergere, I think there are clear indications from the beginning that this was where Jacen was going. I mean, Luke has always questioned the motive-is-only-what-matters use of the force. And the end of the Yuzhan Vong war did not PROVE Jacen right (however you or I might agree with it in real life). If so, that would simply be a case of ends justifies the means. I think the fact that the SW universe was moving towards a real ambivalence/moral relativism toward the use of the force was a real departure from GL's (admittedly simplistic and childish) view of the force. But it is his universe and he gets the set the rules.
That said, given those rules, Jacen's descent it, to me believable. From the beginning of his experiences with Vergere, Jacen has taken a different view of the force, one that he has concealed (not completely effectively) from everyone. Having studied the force among so many differing force users (indicated in The Unifying Force and afterwards in the Dark Nest trilogy), he is not bound by the same mindset as the NJO. More than that, he is unafraid to explore and use his power, for example, in actualy projecting himself into (and thus fixing) the future in the Dark Nest trilogy, an amazingly arrogant thing to do. More than that, his acceptance (and even admiration) of Anakin's decisiveness (however wrong it was)in the last Dark Nest book threw up major alarm bells and yet was in keeping of the new mindset that Vergere had given him. (Recall how she taught him the Dark Side was nothing inherently bad in Traitor, when they saw the natural hunting of that beast. One by one, she demolished the arguments about WHY the dark side was bad.)
The past decades of war and this 3rd incarnation of a post-empire government falling apart has completely convinced him that republican style government CANNOT work. He believes in stability (and wants it, most of all, for his daughter) and for the first time sees himself as the one who HAS to bring it (the first step to dictatorship.) But he has to be better than Anakin, to have more noble desires that simply a selfish fear of losing his wife, even as he follows in his steps.
Betrayal (the 2nd LOTF book) does this pretty nicely, placing you in his head. Without spoiling anything, his actions and ruthlessness in regard to Corellian "terrorists" on Coruscant are chilling, especially a certain woman related to someone we already knew. Every step of the way, he seeks to confirm to himself that he is not doing this out of a lust for power. For him that has become the arbiter of the rightness of his actions. He has become capable of any wrong and does not allow other's opinions of himself to change what he believes. He even examines Anakin's motivations to make sure he is not heading down this path. This is more fully shown in the next LOTF book, Tempest (not as good as Bloodlines [edit for wrong title].)
All in all, I really like where they are going. Jacen is a despicable person, one who I do not and never have had empathy for (unlike Anakin). But he is (and has always been) exactly the kind of idealogue he is now, regardless of the cost (the aforementioned pacifism, being a prime example). It is something about him we saw from the beginning.
[ February 12, 2007, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
As to Jacen being proved right, well you're correct that we don't know if he was right. We do know that unlike Luke's approach, Jacen's worked, though.
In what way is Jacen Solo a despicable person, unworthy of empathy? I don't understand the difference in feeling between Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo is what I'm getting at.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Just personal feelings. Back when he was doing his pacifist thing during the YV war, he was annoying and self-righteous. Even though he gave up that stance, his self-righteous annoyingness is there. Just a personal thing, I know. But I never liked him and his new ideologue cum dictator mode is just as self-righteous, with the added bonus of being evil.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
BTW, Zahn's new book, Allegience, is really, really awesome.
To be honest, I never understood how someone as relatively good as Mara could be the Emperor's Hand, at the height of the empire. Especially since she was the one, in Vision of the Future, who taught Luke that he should let the force guide him, rather than use the force as a bludgeon (as he had been doing in all the Bantam/Del Ray books that came after The Last Command. Zahn has said that he was trying to impose a 'reset' cause Luke was becoming too powerful) and used as her example of where that leads, the Emperor.
But this book showed Mara in the midst of doing her duties to the Emperor and yet she could still be the idealistic and loyal and fundamentally good person she would always be.
Plus the Hand of Judgement was just really really cool.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
New Zahn book? *puts on list* Hey, KPC, you said you were looking for a V-day gift...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I really enjoyed it as well. You can see the beginnings of some uncertainty in Mara Jade...but you can also see that the Emperor used her very carefully, very specifically, even then.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I haven't read either of Zahn's newer books. I feel like a bad fan. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I read Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology and thought they were total crap. I stopped reading Star Wars books altogether after the first Yuuzhan Vong book.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What was wrong with them?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hand of Thrawn, while they had their weaknesses, fixed a lot of things that were wrong with the SW universe.
Which the NJO promptly screwed right back up. (No, I never finished it. I lost interest when it sucked worse with every book so much that even Allston couldn't completely pull it back out.)
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, I wasn't too impressed with the NJO. There were some cool things. But it was too....different. Zahn has the habit of 'fixing' things in the SW universe, though. And his standalone stuff (like Alliance, Survivor's Quest and it's sequel, Outbound Flight) are pretty cool. At least he provided some pretty nice rational for why people did what they did, especially Thrawn and C'baoth (and by implication, his clone Joruus). All in all, I would say he set up the NJO fairly well and forced some constistancy across all SW eras, from Old Repulic to NJO. And my gut tells me that he would like where things are going with LOTF. Rather than bring in some outside threat, the threat credibly comes from within from an idealogue who believes he has the only solution, is not afraid to think outside the strictures and 'prejudices' (in his mind) of the NJO (the organization), and has the power to do what must be done. More than that, all the 'crap' that has come before (including the governmental corruption and ineffectuality of now 3 post-empire governments) plays right into this, since it gives him a somewhat legitimate complaint against how things are done and what has been tried.
I guess what I like is the apparent examination of whether the dark side can be used without being corrupted. You'll notice that with very few exceptions, Jacen doesn't really act in rage. He acts coldly, calculatedly. He kills and commits acts of violence knowing he is hurting and he forces himself to feel it (somehow thinking he is noble for this, that others are making a sacrifice that he honors even as he exacts their 'sacrifice' involuntarily, and that this sets him apart from Vader and Palpatine, who appeared, at least on the surface, to not really care about the pain they inflicted. I think they'd disagree, in their more philosophical moments, as they looked at what made the sith better than the old jedi- emotions vs ivory tower mentalities.) Very rarely does he act in sheer rage. He acts, he thinks, in necessity and somehow this makes him believe that he is master of the Dark Side and that it has not corrupted him. He is constantly examining himself (especially in Bloodlines) to see if he is going in the path of Anakin and Palpatine and seems oblivious to the fact that there are many roads to evil. Perhaps Luke is partly to blame, espousing so much the danger of uncontrolled and angry use of the force, that he feels as long as he avoids that and the exact way Anakin fell, he is not going down their path. But being a sociopath who causes pain (albeit not for pleasure) in order to accomplish something is still evil. I find it all fascinating and somewhat relevant (especially the actions against Corellians in general on Coruscant and suspected terrorists in particular.)
The only complain I have is Mara, who seems to have taken stupid pills not to see the danger Ben is in. Seriously, this seems completely out of character. There needs to be a more plausible reason for Ben to be near Jacen.
Looking forward to the next one next month. I wonder if Jacen will be able to make the ultimate sacrifice that Lumiya would require, in order to show he is not Anakin even as he becomes a Sith.
But it is this ruthlessness, this pruning of mankind and willingness to cut people and nations and worlds off that he learned from Vergere. That is one of the lessons he specifically thinks about having learned from her back in Traitor, remember (to no one in particular).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
To be honest I can't believe they let Ben apprentice to Jacen at all. During the Dark Nest trilogy, Mara was nervous about Jacen being around Ben at all, and didn't even like them going on a camping trip, let alone Jacen being his sole Force tutor.
What changed that convinced Mara to be okay with that?
And someone tell me, I don't care about spoilers, what happened with Jain/Zekk/Ben being Joiners, how was that resolved? And whatever happened with Jaina and Jag?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
After trying to write a summary, I found this instead:
Once Raynar was removed from the Killiks, they went back to being the insects that they were and stopped being a threat. Jaina and Zekk eventually lost their connection. Ben was never truly a joiner (though Gorog tried to use him). Jaina (as a joiner) shot Jag down and Jag lost his position the Ascendency. They are effectively over.
Yeah, I don't get Mara. I know Jacen helped Ben open up to the force. But she still had her doubts. Funny that she became his defender against Luke. Plus I think of vision of Luke's might have played a role. Can't remember.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Poor Jag. He's only ever tried to do the right thing, and he's done more favors to the Solo family than I think they deserved at times.
He's probably my favorite character of the NJO new characters. I hope he's exonerated and returned to his position. He earned everything he got in the Ascendancy, and only lost it for trying to help and for staying true to his feelings.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
IanO,
quote:I guess what I like is the apparent examination of whether the dark side can be used without being corrupted.
I like this, too. It's always been a complaint I've had against the SW universe, that anger, fear, and hatred were completely rejected and not used sometimes when called for. I mean, us ordinary people know that sometimes, those things are not only helpful but appropriate...and the trickiest trick is to know when, not to reject them outright.
I would say that from the 'present' in the SW EU back for approximately five generations, the 'reject outright' approach has failed miserably, overall.
quote:(somehow thinking he is noble for this, that others are making a sacrifice that he honors even as he exacts their 'sacrifice' involuntarily, and that this sets him apart from Vader and Palpatine, who appeared, at least on the surface, to not really care about the pain they inflicted. I think they'd disagree, in their more philosophical moments, as they looked at what made the sith better than the old jedi- emotions vs ivory tower mentalities.)
Initially, I think it does make him noble, albeit in a twisted, sad sort of way. And I don't think he ever felt that the people he killed were sacrificing anything-he never gave them a choice in the matter. Rather, he felt he was sacrificing something-rendering himself more and more despicable in the eyes of his peers, his loved ones, and even-although he's constantly pushing this back with thoughts of his daughter, and duty and necessity-himself.
And for an ideologue who like you've mentioned focuses inward so much, this is actually quite a potent sacrifice. Perhaps he is more similar to Palpatine than he thinks...but we'll never know for sure. Unlike Palpatine, Jacen isn't engineering the wars that are rocking the ruling government. Remember, Palpatine incited war and treachery and murder and invasion so he could seize power, and make things better-things which he'd had a big hand in messing up in the first place.
Jacen starts his descent in a galaxy already filled with those things, through no doing-in fact, despite his best efforts-of his own. The trouble is, as time passes, we do see him acting more in rage and passionate anger. Perhaps it's just because the threats to his daughter are coming more frequently, or perhaps it's just him...but I think we see a very ominous, and much darker sign than anything else in the preview of the upcoming book, in which Jacen deliberately maroons and very likely murders a woman for the crime of insulting and disrespecting him.
quote:He acts, he thinks, in necessity and somehow this makes him believe that he is master of the Dark Side and that it has not corrupted him.
I'm not sure he feels he is the master of the dark side...remember, after all, that he doesn't think in those terms. He thinks now in terms of expedience, efficiency, necessity. Not light and dark.
quote:Perhaps Luke is partly to blame, espousing so much the danger of uncontrolled and angry use of the force, that he feels as long as he avoids that and the exact way Anakin fell, he is not going down their path.
I agree that Luke's teachings of the dangers of the dark side are flawed...his approach to that is not nearly subtle enough. For example, let's say that Lumiya is right about the Sith Lord she mentions, a Sith Lord who avoids the kind of murderous, power-hungry ambition and corruption associated with Palpatine, because before he ever began exploring the dark side, he was a man of strong moral principle, committed to his ethics. Granted, we cannot be sure she isn't just making this guy up...but I personally think she isn't.
I think Luke does not teach enough about the potential evils of ends justifying the means, and I think he definitely should have given the way the YV war went.
quote:But being a sociopath who causes pain (albeit not for pleasure) in order to accomplish something is still evil.
I don't think Jacen is a sociopath-yet. He still recognizes the people around him as people. If you take away the sociopathic label, though, are there any world leaders you can think of who aren't evil?
quote:The only complain I have is Mara, who seems to have taken stupid pills not to see the danger Ben is in. Seriously, this seems completely out of character. There needs to be a more plausible reason for Ben to be near Jacen.
Remember, Mara isn't feeling anything from Jacen that hints at his growing dark side tendancies. And feeling these kinds of things-especially with other Jedi-have very big stock in how they regard each other. Jacen is an anomaly at this point, someone who is able to hide his feelings by completely shutting himself down, effective even against a deliberate probe.
All she's got so far is his questionable politics, dubious law-enforcement decisions and...then he tortures and kills a suspect under interrogation. You'll notice that Ben does not, in fact, remain under Jacen's direct care for very long after that at all.
quote:But it is this ruthlessness, this pruning of mankind and willingness to cut people and nations and worlds off that he learned from Vergere. That is one of the lessons he specifically thinks about having learned from her back in Traitor, remember (to no one in particular).
I agree that his entire outlook has been shaped by Vergere, for better or worse. But I'm struggling to think of real-world nation-state rulers who have lived in such tumultuous times, and been effective...and I'm drawing a blank.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
But Anakin Solo is DEAD!!!!!
I can no longer bear to read those books.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
There actually hasn't been enough death, in my opinion, in the SW EU books. I think it needs to be Whedoned up.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What major pre-NJO deaths were there? Mon Mothma is the only one that comes to mind, but she wasn't even a serious character. Crix Madine died in Darksaber.
Post NJO had a couple deaths in Chewbacca and Anakin, Borsk Fey'la, Ganner Rhysode, Wurth Skidder, and a few other Jedi.
For the most part the core characters remain untouchable.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: What was wrong with them?
It's been a while, so I don't remember everything that I disliked. The big thing I remember about the Hand of Thrawn is that it had really lame villains, only to reveal at the last minute that there had potentially been a really awesome villain—a clone of Admiral Thrawn—all along, but they destroyed the clone before it woke up.
Plus, I just got tired of the endless cycle of stupid New Republic squabbles, rogue Imperial warlords, and occasional dark Jedi.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There weren't any dark Jedi in the duology. Weren't any rogue Warlords either, unless you're counting Moff...(Disra?).
And the squabbles were a long time in coming, the Caamasi storyline has been set up for years, and quite frankly I found the whole thing very plausible.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I was referring to the entire SW EU, Lyr, not just pre- and post-NJO. I agree that there has been more death of...noteworthy-not to say important-characters in NJO than before, though. And unfortunately, the major character who does fall under the scythe, does so twice!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There's more EU than what came before, during and after NJO?
I was agreeing with you though, entirely, there has been an unbelievable survivability rate for the characters of this series.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I wasn't very clear—that last sentence was referring to my feelings on Star Wars books in general and why I stopped reading them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:there has been an unbelievable survivability rate for the characters of this series.
Some of us like that. That's part of why some of us are not interested in reading certain books that no longer feel like Star Wars. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I go back and forth on that KQ. When Chewie died, I almost swore off Star Wars books entirely. And when Anakin died, I kept waiting for them to undo it.
Sometimes I find that unbelievable, but at the same time, when you name most any single character, I'm wholly unwilling to part with him.
Of everyone who has died thus far in the EU, I was most sad to see Elegos A'kla go. Anakin is a close second. Oh to go back to a simpler time...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You can. It's called "selective memory." Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I hope in We, Jedi, the imaginary sequel that needs to happen, there'll be a Caamasi there, maybe even a descendent of Ylenic It'kla, so he could be a Jedi, or maybe Elegos' daughter.
You and I need to start a letter writing campaign to Stackpole.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, I did buy his books when he appealed to fans to buy something other than his SW books. Somehow, though, I doubt he'd love to get that letter from me.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The only non-Star Wars book by him that I've read is Wolf & Raven which is in the Shadowrun series.
Easy to see shades of Corran Horn in Wolfgang Kies. But he writes so well, I really didn't care, because I love the archetype.
What have you read by him?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Mmmm, I bought a lot of his stuff but my very favorite is Eyes of Silver, which is, like most of his stuff, unfortunately, out of print. I really like it. It's a stand-alone. you're right, though, he writes really well. I enjoy his style, and I think I enjoy it MORE in his non-SW stuff.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
I've read every single Michael Stackpole book (including his BattleTech ones). He's one of my 3 most favorite authors. I still say my favorite is Talion: Revenant but it's a near thing between that and Eyes of Silver. I'm also very much enjoying his latest series and very impatiently awaiting the 3rd. . . .
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Stackpole comes up with great plots, and is better than most other SW authors at generating actual character complexity, but his dialogue makes me want to curl up in a ball and never read a book again. It's stilted and expository- textbook examples of telling rather than showing. He also has an annoying habit of ending every single chapter with an overdramatic line, as if he's trying for a foreboding television cliffhanger ("Corran nodded gravely. 'If Admiral Buggidyboo has his way, none of us will get out of this alive.'"). You can almost hear the horn section going, "DUN DUN DUNNNN!"
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Rakeesh,
I have to agree mostly with your take. Though I find Jacen's thought processes and how he decides to murder chillingly cold. In the last book (Tempest), his decision to murder his parents based on incomplete information was disturbing, to say the least. Man, just writing that makes you see how far he has gone.
Regarding his sociopathy, I agree that is not necessarily the best term. He does view them as human. It's just that their deaths are necessary. When he killed his Jedi friend at the end of Betrayel, it was because a vision showed him that if she didn't die, he would have to kill Luke, perhaps an understandable, if inexcusable, reason. But his murders and actions have been increasingly cold. Yes, he feels it, and he does sacrifice everyone else's (and even his own) good opinion of himself. It is this single facet, the fact that he thinks he doesn't want to do this that makes this so very interesting. He thinks he is not seduced, even as his actions are the very actions of a person seduced to the dark side.
I think he views himself as in control of the force. When I used the term 'master of the dark side' that's what I was referring to. He believes himself above the usual corruption associated with the dark side. And that, too, is interesting. Can someone use the dark side and do the things he does, and not become/be evil?
But you're right about other rulers and are they really any different. There's always collateral damage in military actions. I suppose the difference is that Jacen never appears to go out of his way to avoid the damage. And is even willing to kill innocents (like his Jedi friend- can't remember her name) on purpose. True, either way, dead is dead. But he is willing to kill, in cold calculated blood, someone simply in the name of some future vision. In this, he is just like Anakin.
And yet there is enough gray area in a lot of what he does that...well, it's interesting. I would definitely like to see Jacen die a Sith, but with some pathos, some redeemable quality, so that there is more emotional punch.
I just like where this is going.
(PS, and I loved the Boba Fett and later Taun We sections of bloodlines. Want to learn more about him.)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So I finished "Unseen Queen" on Saturday, and I'm 2/3rds of the way into "Betrayal" at the moment, and I have some comments.
1. They changed Lysa Dunter's name to Lysa Dunton about halfway through the book for no apparent reason. Fairly sill oversight on the part of the editor AND the author.
2. The part where Leia says "Han shot first," that HAS to be a playful joking reference to Mos Eisley Cantina and Greedo. Just thought that was amusing at it caught my eye.
3. And this has nothing to do with the current stuff, just to do with Mike Stackpole which we were talking about before. I mentioned before that Corran Horn and Wolfgang Kies (of Shadowrun) share a lot of similiar character traits. One thing I just picked up on when rereading "Wolf and Raven" is that Wolf's favorite drink is Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve, whereas Corran's is Correllian Brandy: Whyren's Reserve. That has to be an homage, or at least a reference, but it's WAY to similiar to just be a coincidence. Just something I'd never picked up on in the dozens of times I've read all these books.
I'm sure I'll post more when I finish the last 80 pages, but my general feeling on the way things are going so far is: unbelievable. And not in the good was, as in, I don't for a moment believe that all these characters would behave the way they are behaving. NJO stretched the credibility of the SW Universe. LOTF is snapping it in two and tying it into a knot, but we'll see where it goes from here...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So I finished the book then reread the thread. I'm still what, two books behind being totally up to date?
I don't buy Jacen's descent, not yet anyway. If there's more information I get in the next couple books to make it more believable, then so be it, but at the moment, it doesn't strike me as plausible. Any chance at believing it fell away when he killed Nelani. And I see nothing that leads me to believe it's anywhere near logical for him to put THAT much faith in his crazy future visions, enough to KILL Nelani? Too extreme.
And I also find it hard to believe he's buy what Lumiya was selling about Vergere. Her words about Vergere don't reconcile with the many speeches we've heard Vergere give, especially during her time on Mon Calamari.
I'm just not buying it, and not just because I don't at all like it. There's already enough conflict going on in the Solo/Skywalker family, and a cool hand being extended to the Antilles family as well (I still want more than the morsel of Corran Horn they tossed out, but meh, whaddaya gonna do?). I'll continue to read the books, so long as my brother keeps buying them, but I think it's going off the deep end.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm actually enjoying LotF quite a bit. I thought that "Betrayal" was an exciting read and an overall good start. Book 2, "Bloodlines" was the first time I actually gave a damn about Boba Fett. "Tempest" wasn't bad either. Book 4, "Exile" just came out. Unfortunately I'm much too busy at the moment to read it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Here's the thing about his "crazy future visions", though: they've all come true. And he has actually been able to literally change the future specifically. I can easily imagine myself believing in the accuracy of such visions, if I had them repeatedly and they kept coming true.
I think that what's missing is the "why". We are told, at infrequent intervals, that he is doing this because he is totally convinced that this is the way to ensure a safer, more secure and peaceful galaxy for everyone, most notably his lover and daughter. So often, though, that goes unstated or unmentioned.
As for Vergere, though, her speeches were totally utilitarian. What Lumiya is saying about her, while we cannot know if Vergere would have actually said them, I have no trouble imagining her say them.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How many of these visions has he had? Other than the one that made him kill Nelani, and the one that caused him to launch the attack on the Chiss base, I don't recall any others.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
There was that one that bothered him through most of the NJO. Something about standing on a balance point and failing to grasp a lightsaber.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
In the middle of Exile, right now. It's OK. Nothing really cool yet.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well now, the sacrifice was not what I was expecting. At least, not tangibly speaking anyway. As for the actual person or persons involved in the sacrifice, that was a surprise.
I have to admit I'm still interested in the story. I also enjoy the inclusion of Mandalorians. I don't know why that is, exactly-I didn't give a fig for them (as far as fictional cultural societies go, of course ) until I think it was when I played KoTOR, and KoTOR II. They were pretty groovy there.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I've read everything except the last hardcover that just came out, and I'm liking it a lot more than I did before.
Jacen's a total nutjob now, but I like the development that Ben Skywalker is getting. And I like what is going on with Jaina, though it's weird that it almost seems like she likes Zekk now. I still want to see her end up with Jag.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
That's the one I just read, Lyrhawn, it's called 'Sacrifice' by Karen Traviss, the author of the second book in Legacy. She's the author I prefer out of the ones that we've seen for this series, so far.
I'm afraid you'll get next to no new stuff involving any of the solos except for Jacen in this book. However, there is quite a lot with Ben, Lumiya, Mara and Luke (Mara more than Luke, actually), and the Fetts.
It's not a spoiler to say (at least, it's been mentioned in the previous books) that 'Sacrifice' is a major turning point, at least as big as when Jacen Solo murdered his prisoner in interrogation. Quite a lot bigger than that, really. He chooses his own Sith name, for one thing.
Major (as in, SW universe altering) turning points for Jacen, Ben, Mara, Luke, Boba Fett, and Lumiya.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I also enjoy the inclusion of Mandalorians. I don't know why that is, exactly-I didn't give a fig for them (as far as fictional cultural societies go, of course ) until I think it was when I played KoTOR, and KoTOR II. They were pretty groovy there.
You see, that's one of the things that I didn't like about "Sacrifice". I don't know why Traviss has such a major Mando fetish that causes her to cram them into stories where they are not needed. "Bloodlines" was the first time that I really got to know Fett beyond his limited role in the films, and that was all well and good. I actually liked it. But I didn't need for such a large portion of "Sacrifice" to be about Fett and his boys. Those chapters were dull and seemed to be only loosely tied to the main plot. The other two authors in the series don't seem to have any interest in the Mandos, which makes the overall flow of the series feel less consistent when every third book Traviss insists on cramming them in.
Still, the parts of "Sacrifice" that were good (which is a fair amount of the book) are very good, but as far as turning points in a series go, I didn't feel that it lived up to standard set by "Star by Star" in the NJO. The major events are indeed major, but the rest felt like filler.
quote: And I like what is going on with Jaina, though it's weird that it almost seems like she likes Zekk now. I still want to see her end up with Jag.
Incidentally, the only thing that interests me less than the Mandalorians is Jaina Solo's love life, so at least Traviss did well by not dwelling on that.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Heh, far from dwelling on it, she criticized it! And rightly so. I've never really been very enamored of Jaina.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'll probably get to it either when/if my brother buys it, or when it comes out on paperback.
I'm mixed so far on the Fett/Mando stuff. I feel like they are trying to cram a wholly separate series into these books, which can be annoying, as the plots don't really seem to mix at all except in rare points like the dead prisoner. Frankly I think it would be better served as a separate series. The part of me that wants to like it is the part that has always liked Boba Fett. But when I want to skip to the end of the Mando stuff to get to the REAL story, I think that says something about my interest level.
I'm interested to see what happens with Ben, and to a lesser extent with Luke and Mara. I can't imagine what Earth shattering revelations could come from the two of them, unless one or both of them turns his/her back on the Jedi and decides to hunt down Jacen. That'd be interesting.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I can't imagine what Earth shattering revelations could come from the two of them, unless one or both of them turns his/her back on the Jedi and decides to hunt down Jacen.
*giggles behind his hand*
Ditto on both the love life and the Mandalorian stuff (as in, I find them both uninteresting). And Jacen's complete fall to evil in this one actually struck me as semi-comprehensible, given how rapidly they've had him descending so far. His recognition that Tenel Ka will almost certainly stop loving him once she figures things out -- but his determination to carry through with it anyway -- rings very true to me, for some reason, based on how self-centered they've been writing him so far.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, I am a bit tired of the Mandos culture, especially given that Alston or Denning don't bring them up at all. Now, it's true, each author has their pets, Allston: the Antilles clan, Denning: the Squibs. But a third of their books are not about them. If the Mandos are going to take on Galactic importance, the next book better show it. (Though I will say, I did like Fett in Bloodlines, and his thoughts on Jango. It was fresh, perhaps, and something quite interesting and preserved continuity.)
SPOILERS:
SPOILERS:
SPOILERS: SERIOUSLY YOU DONT WANNA READ THIS
SPOILERS: you asked for it.
I was shocked at the sacrifice, and yet shocked at how non-calculating it was. I wanted to see an actual sacrificial attitude on Jacen's part, not a killing in self-defense. Mara is, with the possible exception of Thrawn, the single greatest EU character ever (aside from her stupidity in defending Jacen to Luke a couple books before). More than, their appearance and character in Heir to the Empire, has, IMO, a lot to do with the Star Wars rennaisance that began in 1991. So her death was profound. It was the end of an era, almost, but not quite the level of the death of an actual OT series main character (and I'm sorry, but I never really cared all that much about Chewbacca, so his death in Vector Prime didn't do ANYTHING for me.)
Now, more than ever, I hate Jacen. His sneaking up on Ben and promising to find out who did this...Evil. No redemption for him. He is calculated every step of the way. Evil, not emotionally driven.
I am really liking the Legacy of the Force series. Can't wait for the next.
Just read it this weekend. Seriously amazing stuff. On a par with Rinzler's new release "The Making of Star Wars." Lucas basically went from making a loosly serialized modern version of Flash Gordon, without any conscious mythic underpinnings (or at least not to the extent touted today), to a fully epic grand modern tragedy. This book shows the evolution of the story and the seems and stiches and changes along the way, using numerous interviews and old drafts and notes, going all the way back to 1973. Really archival stuff, on a par with the Lipincott interviews. He is able to show, among other things, that Vader was never originally intended to be Luke's father (which many believe, but I think this fully proves using old notes and drafts and statements.) Who 'the other' was (not Leia), what happened to the sequel trilogy, and so on. By deconstructing the Saga, he also shows a number of the motivations for WHY he did things the way he did in the Prequels, how they all grew out of those fateful months of March-April, in 1978, when he made Vader into Lukes father and gave birth to the prequels. Along the way, though, I found myself truly appreciating Lucas in a new way, seeing the humanized, flawed man, the man who, in the end, like Anakin, sacrificed his marriage and wife for a dream that he hoped would set them free, but lost it instead. It was quite moving.
Anyway, I just wanted to share this.
Ian
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO: Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
I agree. That's always been Jacen's problem. He's always believed that no one can understand the Force and the Universe like him, and that therefore gives him the right to do anything for his version of "the greater good". And somehow, after about 15 years of thinking this way, he hasn't noticed his own raging superiority complex.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Is The Jedi Academy Trilogy any good? I've always wanted to read some of the Star Wars books, but I've only seen the movies so far.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The Jedi Academy Trilogy is rather awful, as far as SW books go. In fact, stay away from Kevin J. Anderson's SW books completely. He tends to making the characters do really stupid things.
Read I, Jedi instead. It covers the same time period and events but in a much shorter form, as part of a much more interesting story, and with Corran Horn (drool) as the main character.
Also read the X-Wing books because they totally rock, and to find out who Corran Horn is.
Avoid the Black Fleet Crisis at all costs. Also avoid the books by Barbara Hambly; I love her other stuff but can't stand her SW books.
Read anything by Zahn or Stackpole or Allston. The Han Solo Trilogy (his early life, before the OT) are good. The Corellian Trilogy, some folks hate, I think are fun. Don't start with the NJO.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: The Jedi Academy Trilogy is rather awful, as far as SW books go. In fact, stay away from Kevin J. Anderson's SW books completely. He tends to making the characters do really stupid things.
That's a matter of opinion. I thought the JAT was one of the highlights of the New Republic era novels. However, pretty much everyone will tell you (correctly) that you should start with Timothy Zahn's trilogy: "Heir to the Empire", "Dark Force Rising", and "The Last Command". Move on to the JAT after that.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Wow, neo, you're the first person I've seen who really liked them. I thought they were okay the first time I read them, they got worse with re-reading. Almost to a person the people I've talked with who have read them thought they were pretty bad (although the concept was good.) (And some people are neutral on them. But you're the first I've seen who really liked them.)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Tom,
Heh, no kiddin' `bout the giggling!
quote:And Jacen's complete fall to evil in this one actually struck me as semi-comprehensible, given how rapidly they've had him descending so far. His recognition that Tenel Ka will almost certainly stop loving him once she figures things out -- but his determination to carry through with it anyway -- rings very true to me, for some reason, based on how self-centered they've been writing him so far.
It's funny (and more interesting, imo) because mingled in with his 'complete fall into evil' are some things which might seem evil but which aren't, in my opinion. The assassination, for example. Clearly justified, again imo.
In one sense, he's certainly self-centered. His motives are the important ones. The things which matter to him are his beliefs about the future, his motives, his lessons learned from the past, his intentions.
On the other hand, he's definitely not self-centered in the usual way: the things he's doing aren't for himself. In fact, almost nothing he's doing nowadays brings him pleasure or happiness, quite the opposite.
---------
IanO,
It's funny that you liked them in Bloodlines, but not here. Same author, after all. And I think the stage is clearly being set for there to be a rennaissance of Mandalorian culture in the next few SW years. They're recalling their scattered people, rebuilding their planet, their agricultural and industrial base, they're establishing alliances, and reviving their culture. Clearly they're 'on the make'. They're kind of like Fremen, I think, in terms of how much potential importance they can have.
quote:I was shocked at the sacrifice, and yet shocked at how non-calculating it was. I wanted to see an actual sacrificial attitude on Jacen's part, not a killing in self-defense.
I disagree that it wasn't non-calculating. Let's say that it was tactically non-calculating, but strategically it was anything but. Know what I mean? After all, Jacen may have killed her in the heat of battle, but he pursued her and hunted her in the tunnels quite coldly. And I don't think he was pursuing her to apprehend, either. Thus, sacrificing her and Ben's love was actually far from non-calculating. He just didn't tie her up in front of an altar and use a Special Sith Knife(tm.) on the day of a Sith Lunar Eclipse.
I agree her death was profound, and much more meaningful than Chewie's, although I think I liked him more than you did.
quote:Now, more than ever, I hate Jacen. His sneaking up on Ben and promising to find out who did this...Evil. No redemption for him. He is calculated every step of the way. Evil, not emotionally driven.
Well, I dunno. Can it be Evil with a capital 'E' in this situation, where the intent is solely (or at least, 90% as Jacen has noticed) for others? I don't know if he will ever find redemption, but I don't believe it's ever irrevocably gone. I also strongly disagree that it's not emotionally driven.
In my opinion, it's all been emotionally driven. He may tell himself otherwise, but it's all, all of it, ever since he committed to this path (or if not this specific path, one very like it) for his daughter and her future. The steps may be calculated, but the decision to start walking was an emotionally driven one. He's lost most of his 'heat' about it, but it's still there. What was his response when Lumiya finally learned that Jacen had a child (and thus Lumiya might put her at risk like she did with Ben)? He tried to murder her almost immediately. He'd been considering doing so for a long time, but what spurred him to do it? Daughter in danger.
quote:Jacen always seemed self-centered. Even his pacifism and arguments with Anakin, before and during the beginning of the Vong war always struck me as self-centered and self-righteous. I have seen nothing to changed that since then.
Well, in my opinion there are very few of the main cast of Force-wielders who aren't very self-centered and self-righteous. Luke, Mara, Jaina (especially her, imo-her self-centeredness is about as severe as Jacen's, but lacks his scope), Corran, on and on and on, they're all quite self-centered and self-righteous. However, there are only a few of them who have truly explored alternatives. Jacen is one of them, imo. Doesn't make him right, but it does make him more bearable (imo, again).
A few flaws I noted: one, why didn't Mara tell someone something explicitly before she left? "I'm going after Jacen, he's a Sith, I'm going to try and kill him," would've been thoughtful. She's a wise woman, it must've occurred to her that she wouldn't come out ahead in that little duel. Two, why after Jacen taught Ben his little technique didn't he start watching his back? They should've delved into that more deeply, I think, it would've made more sense. And three, why didn't Ben figure out how Mara was tracking him? He's been going to (literally) Spy School, and with his training and experience coupled with Mara's impossible knowledge, it shouldn't have been a mystery to him. ------------ Neo-dragon,
quote:I agree. That's always been Jacen's problem. He's always believed that no one can understand the Force and the Universe like him, and that therefore gives him the right to do anything for his version of "the greater good". And somehow, after about 15 years of thinking this way, he hasn't noticed his own raging superiority complex.
Can you name a Jedi who doesn't think this way, neo-dragon? They've all got superiority complexes, and they're all willing to put others at risk for the greater good. Jacen is willing to put others at risk for the greater good by being a cold-blooded dictator. The other Jedi are willing to put others at risk for the greater good by simply not killing people who really need killing. -------------
I enjoyed the Black Fleet Crisis. For one thing, it seemed to be one of the most 'authentic' (if that makes sense) in terms of technology and military matters, far and away in fact.
Otherwise, I agree with you, although I didn't despise JAT as much as you did. They were mediocre at best, though.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought the Black Fleet Crisis was okay. Not a shining moment in the pantheon of Star Wars literature, but it wasn't horrible.
And while I didn't enjoy the JAT, I would say to read it once, when you've read other stuff, just don't let it be your introduction into the SWEU.
I'd have to agree that the Thrawn Trilogy is really the best place to start. It was the first trilogy I read in the EU, and nothing since has quite captured the same spirit of Star Wars (with the exception of the X-Wing books). I would follow it up with the X-Wing books, and of course I, Jedi, which remains my all time favorite Star Wars novel. Corran Horn rocks. If I weren't straight, I'd fight Anne for him, heck, I might fight Anne for him anyway.
The Han Solo trilogy I thought was cool, I REALL loved it when they went into Sabacc a bit more in depth than we'd seen anywhere else (and have seen since), and the Correllian Trilogy is something I could take or leave personally. I personally don't like the Barbara Hambly books at all in Star Wars, I read them once each, and found them lacking. I did like Shadows of the Empire, which is I think the second or third Star Wars book written, way back in the day. Some of the short story books are good too.
I maintain, by the way, that one day, Casino Sabaacc will be the biggest thing in Vegas. Once the technology catches up (well it's probably already there, we just have a little ways to go to make it more affordable), I think some Star Wars fan gambler geek will push it forward and get it going, at which point AC Crispin and George Lucas will make a bundle (again). I would love to play it personally.
I'm of mixed opinion overall on all books that take place after the Return of Thrawn Duology. There are individual pieces of gold in the whole series, and individual pieces of crap. But overall, I think it's okay, if not a overlong. And I've yet to form an opinion on the Legacy of the Force books.
Tom and Rakeesh -
Curse your giggling! Now I want to rush out and buy a book I can't really afford!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Wow, neo, you're the first person I've seen who really liked them. I thought they were okay the first time I read them, they got worse with re-reading. Almost to a person the people I've talked with who have read them thought they were pretty bad (although the concept was good.) (And some people are neutral on them. But you're the first I've seen who really liked them.)
Well, I have to confess that I haven't read them in several years. If I reread them now it's entirely possible that my opinion would be different. All I know is that I remember the JAT being considerably better than the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Trilogy, and many of the stand-alone books.
quote:Can you name a Jedi who doesn't think this way, neo-dragon? They've all got superiority complexes, and they're all willing to put others at risk for the greater good. Jacen is willing to put others at risk for the greater good by being a cold-blooded dictator. The other Jedi are willing to put others at risk for the greater good by simply not killing people who really need killing.
But no jedi who hasn't turned dark will take it upon himself to be the galaxy's saviour while fully aware that every other jedi would disagree with his actions. Even the most strong willed and proud jedi like Kyp Durron will grudgingly follow the orders of the council. Jacen is the only one who thinks he is above all authority. Even from the start of the NJO he was against the reformation of the jedi council because he didn't think that jedi should have to answer to anyone but the Force itself, and now he actually believes that his own understanding of the Force is superior to that of every Force user who has ever lived, including 1000 generations of jedi who came before, just because he spent a whole 5 years studying it .
When it comes to self righteousness and superiority complexes, Jecen Solo is light years beyond any other jedi... even his grand father.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:All I know is that I remember the JAT being considerably better than the Black Fleet Crisis, the Corellian Trilogy, and many of the stand-alone books.
Well, that I'll give you (except the Corellian Trilogy, which, while I don't consider it "canon" or even plausible, I thought was great fun. I also liked The Dark Crystal, I think it was, but do NOT consider it canon, just like it as fun bad writing, kind of like the Nancy Drew books I still collect. So not good, but fun nonetheless. And I have to admit that "The Little Lost Bantha Cub" rocks. Someone completed the story online and I've read it to my daughter a few times. )
quote:Corran Horn rocks. If I weren't straight, I'd fight Anne for him, heck, I might fight Anne for him anyway.
And you know Mirax would come in, raise an eyebrow, sigh, and kick both our butts.
quote:I maintain, by the way, that one day, Casino Sabaacc will be the biggest thing in Vegas. Once the technology catches up (well it's probably already there, we just have a little ways to go to make it more affordable), I think some Star Wars fan gambler geek will push it forward and get it going, at which point AC Crispin and George Lucas will make a bundle (again). I would love to play it personally.
At one point some students at some school somewhere created a free online game program that wasn't perfect but was decent, and it was indeed fun to play.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Would I be able to understand I, Jedi if I've only seen the movies? I'm not really looking to read alot of Star Wars books, I just thought the concept of a Jedi Academy sounded really cool and I wanted to read about it.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Probably, although it would likely work better if you had read the X-Wing books first.
Edit:
Also, if you only want to read a couple books, I'd still recommend reading the Thrawn Trilogy starting with Heir to the Empire by Timmothy Zahn. To this day it is still one of the best groups of Star Wars books written, and since they were pretty much the first EU books you don't need anything except the original trillogy to know the whole background.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Would I be able to understand I, Jedi if I've only seen the movies? I'm not really looking to read alot of Star Wars books, I just thought the concept of a Jedi Academy sounded really cool and I wanted to read about it.
You could follow the JAT pretty easily only having seen the movies if you insist on jumping ahead. "I, Jedi" might be a bit weird because it's written in the 1st person from the point of view of a character whom you're not familiar with.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
neo-dragon,
quote:But no jedi who hasn't turned dark will take it upon himself to be the galaxy's saviour while fully aware that every other jedi would disagree with his actions. Even the most strong willed and proud jedi like Kyp Durron will grudgingly follow the orders of the council. Jacen is the only one who thinks he is above all authority. Even from the start of the NJO he was against the reformation of the jedi council because he didn't think that jedi should have to answer to anyone but the Force itself, and now he actually believes that his own understanding of the Force is superior to that of every Force user who has ever lived, including 1000 generations of jedi who came before, just because he spent a whole 5 years studying it .
Kyp Durron is a particularly poor example for your point, and I'm not just talking about his days before his 'possession' by Exar Kun. Quite a few times in the past, he has quite openly and defiantly rejected the wisdom and politics of his peers in favor of pursuing his own agenda. He's just cleaned up his act after more than a decade of doing so, is all.
Truthfully, everyone believes they are above authorities they don't already agree with in some way. They might not show it in actions for fear of reprisals, but it's pretty true in my opinion.
In my opinion, he was right to be against the 'reformation'. Luke did a spectacularly bad job of managing the Jedi for almost the entire war. He even denied that responsibility for quite awhile, and millions or possibly trillions died because of it.
Jacen Solo doesn't feel he's got a better understanding of the force than everyone else alive (at least, prior to Lumiya's death). How could he? He explicitly acknowledged her as his teacher. He does think that he's got a better understanding of it than the rest of his peers, and before his turning, I'd say he was unequivocally correct in that assumption. As for 'that ever lived', well, that's just ridiculous. You're exaggerating there, there isn't any evidence within the story that he feels that way.
The Jedi of the Old Republic are also a pretty crummy example of how things should work. Talk about dropping the ball! They were much more self-centered than Jacen has been so far. They were more about order than they were about justice...ironically, very much like Jacen Solo (from the very first prequel movie, I lost all respect for the old Jedi, the ones who tolerated slavery)
quote:When it comes to self righteousness and superiority complexes, Jecen Solo is light years beyond any other jedi... even his grand father.
I disagree. Luke was too self-righteous in the YV wars, unwilling to take an aggressive stance out of fear and self-centered concerns. Billions and billions or even trillions suffered and died for his foolishness. Talk about self-righteous! Jacen doesn't have billions of deaths on his head, yet.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, I think you can give Luke a bit of a discount, in that the deaths that occurred on his watch weren't actually caused by him, whereas Jacen is actually ordering the deaths of people.
Luke, hypothetically, could have saved billions of lives if he had acted aggressively from the very beginning of the YV invasion. But it's also possible that such aggressive action could have had unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order. It was their moral ambiguity that got the Order to where it currently is, which, with the exception of Jacen, seems to be a pretty stable and well organized institution. Their only real problem now is when the draw the line with respects to the actions of the government. Do they yield to the demands of the government or do they follow the teachings of the Force? I think some of Luke's answers to these questions are a total 180 of decisions he would have made at the start of the YV war. I think he needs to come halfway back from where he is. I think they've gone from being too pacifistic to too aggressive. Although when it comes to Jacen they might not be aggressive enough.
Anne -
I've played a few different online Sabaacc games, though always against a computer and never against other people. All we'd really need is playing cards with screens, all of them Wi-FI enabled and connected to the randomizer, or a simple computer. It might be expensive in the next few years, but in a decade I think they could totally do it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Lyrhawn,
Sure, he gets a bit of a discount. But it's a question posed by some of my favorite fiction sometimes, that I haven't truly decided on. Which is the more moral, ethical thing to do...the decision which is in itself wrong or maybe even Evil, but nonetheless saves countless (in SW terms, billions or trillions) of lives? Or the decision which is moral and ethical and Good, but which leads nearly inevitably to war and suffering for millions and billions of people?
Also, I'm not entirely clear on how many deaths Jacen has directly ordered that could not be similarly laid to Luke. Open war doesn't count. So far Jacen has ordered one political assisination...but it was of an enemy chief of state in a state of war...and tortured one prisoner during interrogation.
And yet...Luke routinely mind-rapes people in interrogations, and I have to wonder just how different that is?
quote:Luke, hypothetically, could have saved billions of lives if he had acted aggressively from the very beginning of the YV invasion. But it's also possible that such aggressive action could have had unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order.
This is precisely the self-centeredness I'm talking about. 'Unforseen consequences on the Jedi Order'...truthfully I'm not very convinced of the goodness of an organization that places concerns like that over the welfare of trillions.
The truth is, the Jedi just aren't very self-aware. In fact, there were really only two (imo) self-aware Jedi, and one has become a Sith Lord (of a different style), and the other is dead.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Who was the other? Vergere? Don't spoil me if it's from the most recent book. Or did you mean Lumiya?
I didn't necessarily mean that they weighed unforseen consequences for the structure of the Jedi Order against action, I simply meant that if they had acted before they were sure of themselves, then making a mature decision before they were mature enough to make it could have been a detrimental side effect.
Personally, I don't know how the hell it took Luke so long to figure out that the best defense is a good offense. He was part of the assault team that attacked the second Death Star, which was clearly an offensive action, and I can't imagine that he looks back at that as a foolish action, or as immoral, though I think I remember discussions about the immorality of killing everyone on board the first Death Star.
His fear was an entire Order of Dark Jedi, who took all that aggressive energy and went crazy with it, and went over the top and lost track of the morality of their actions. You saw what happened to Jaina when she went dark, and when Kyp was possessed, it wasn't an unfounded concern. He even said it himself at one point, would it be worth it to defeat the YV if in their place were a 100 Dark Jedi? And is it possible that we see the roots of the misguidance of the Jedi Order NOW in the decisions made back then? Luke, again, said it himself in one of the last couple books, that they've adapted a far too blazay (not sure how you spell that, blase with an accent? blasez?), aggressive attitude, and that it was time he instituted some order in the Order once again and brought them back to more peaceful ways.
The question you basically ask is, do the ends justify the means? During the YV war, yeah, I think they did. It's not a cut and dry question, as so many try to make it. There are some instances where you lose more in the prosecution of the war than you gain in victory. But that's not the rule. Anyway, I mostly agree with you.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Lyrhawn,
It's from the most recent book, so I won't spoil it.
quote:I didn't necessarily mean that they weighed unforseen consequences for the structure of the Jedi Order against action, I simply meant that if they had acted before they were sure of themselves, then making a mature decision before they were mature enough to make it could have been a detrimental side effect.
I understood what you meant. My point is, while Luke was worrying about how to treat a laceration and minimize scarring and infection in the future, the patient had a knife between its ribs.
100 Dark Jedi would arguably have been a helluva lot less dangerous than an ill-contested YV invasion. While Luke was undeniably concerned with safeguarding innocent lives...he was more concerned with safeguarding the integrity of the Jedi. That's the example of selfishness and self-involvement that I'm talking about.
There's almost zero "do what must be done" amongst almost all Jedi, even though honestly at that level of power I argue that it's not just right but necessary to have that mentality to some degree. In fact, there are only three or four Jedi I'd say have ever been shown as having that, prior to the last book: Jacen, Mara, Vergere, and Corran Horn.
Luke used to have it...back when he was too young and not thoughtful enough to much consider the repurcussions of his actions. Mara has had it for as long as she's been shown. Corran Horn has had it for awhile, he's willing to make some hard decisions. And Jacen clearly has it, and has ever since his brainwashing/reeducation under Vergere.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh I get what you mean now.
I'm with you on that, especially on Corran being one of the Jedi in that small club.
I'd debate the 100 Dark Jedi vs. YV thing, but I think Hatrack's Geek-o-Meter would EXPLODE if we did that. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Kyp Durron is a particularly poor example for your point, and I'm not just talking about his days before his 'possession' by Exar Kun. Quite a few times in the past, he has quite openly and defiantly rejected the wisdom and politics of his peers in favor of pursuing his own agenda. He's just cleaned up his act after more than a decade of doing so, is all.
I think that when comparing Kyp and Jacen the matter of degree is entirely relevant. No jedi who hadn't fallen to the darkside has ever taken personal responsibility for the fates of trillions of lives and the future of the Galaxy. Not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun, what exactly is Kyp's worst transgression against the Order or the government, taking a more proactive stance against pirates than he was supposed to? I say again that no jedi has matched Jacen's level of arrogance, especially not based on such dubious rationales.
quote: In my opinion, he was right to be against the 'reformation'. Luke did a spectacularly bad job of managing the Jedi for almost the entire war. He even denied that responsibility for quite awhile, and millions or possibly trillions died because of it.
Fair enough, but the fact is that Luke was recognized as the leader of the Order. He didn't assume authority through questionable means because his pride told him that he could do better than anyone else. Luke pretty much represents the antithesis of Jacen. He's often too humble to try and enforce his will upon others while Jacen is too arrogant not to. I'm not trying to say that Luke's side of the coin is much better, I'm just backing up what I said about Jacen having the biggest superiority complex.
quote: Jacen Solo doesn't feel he's got a better understanding of the force than everyone else alive (at least, prior to Lumiya's death). How could he? He explicitly acknowledged her as his teacher.
And what exactly did Jacen ever even try to learn from Lumiya? He used her as tool for doing his dirty work, and to help him understand the prophecy so that he could become an official Sith Lord. I don't think that he ever thought of her as a teacher/master so much as a stepping stone to his destiny. He had many such stepping stones during his travels, but as far as I can tell he just got what ever he needed from them and moved on since he feels that he's above any one philosophy or teacher.
quote: As for 'that ever lived', well, that's just ridiculous. You're exaggerating there, there isn't any evidence within the story that he feels that way.
I don't think that I am. He's indirectly stated that he understands the Force better than every jedi who lived before because he insists that they were all wrong in believing that the Force has light and dark sides. Since that was a fundamental understanding of the Jedi Order for as long as it existed, but he believes that he has proven it wrong in the 10 years or so since meeting Vergere, he's essentially saying, "1000 generations of jedi got it wrong but I figured out the true nature of the Force by the time I was 30!" He's also made it clear that he thinks he's better than even notable Sith Lords like Palpatine and Vader, who he sees as proud and selfish (while failing to note similar qualities in himself) to the point of self destruction.
quote: The Jedi of the Old Republic are also a pretty crummy example of how things should work. Talk about dropping the ball! They were much more self-centered than Jacen has been so far. They were more about order than they were about justice...ironically, very much like Jacen Solo (from the very first prequel movie, I lost all respect for the old Jedi, the ones who tolerated slavery)
Indeed, the Old Jedi Order was too rigid and set in their ways, but that hurt themselves more than the galaxy. They couldn't battle every injustice in the galaxy, especially those that occurred outside of the jurisdiction of the Republic. However, their peace keeping was responsible for a galaxy that hadn't seen a major war for 1000 years prior to the clone wars, and they managed this without trampling on people's rights and freedoms like the Empire did and Jacen is doing now. For all their faults, the old Jedi did serve the people and democracy. Jacen serves only himself because he believes that he is the highest authority.
quote:I disagree. Luke was too self-righteous in the YV wars, unwilling to take an aggressive stance out of fear and self-centered concerns. Billions and billions or even trillions suffered and died for his foolishness. Talk about self-righteous! Jacen doesn't have billions of deaths on his head, yet.
To be fair, I'd say that the Vong were just a bit more responsible for that than Luke. And if you want to talk about inaction making it worse, wasn't the New Republic government to blame? I already discussed what I think Luke's problem was above, but you're acting as if he could have prevented all those deaths if he had acted a certain way. The NJO only had 100 members! They couldn't have won or prevented the war no matter what they did anyway. If the jedi did nothing, people died. When they were proactive (like on Ithor) people died anyway, and the New Republic blamed the jedi for provoking the Vong, and used them as an excuse for why they shouldn't risk provoking them further. Luke's leadership and mindset weren't the real problem. Even though he had his doubts, the jedi under Luke's command fought the Vong at every major battle of the war.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Jacen more powerful than Palpatine or Vader? That's easily believable.
Most powerful Jedi ever? Remains to be seen. Raw Force power can often times not matter. Anakin had the most midichlorians ever, and yet he lost an arm to Dooku, and his legs to Obi-Wan, and then got rocked by Luke a couple decades later (but then he was much weaker by then).
Yoda was both extremely powerful and very talented with a lightsaber, as well as being very wise (for the most part). And at the same time, less powerful Jedi have come closs to killing Luke through guile and trickery. Jacen knows a lot of Force tricks, but I don't think he'd stand up to Luke in a one on one battle, as Mara said a dozen times (seriously hammering it into our heads like a mantra) a couple books ago, Luke is the greatest swordsman in the galaxy.
Cripes I'm itching to read the next book. I have to check ebay or Amazon to see if I can find a cheap copy. It's unlikely the Library will have the most recent Star Wars EU book.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Incidentally, the next book in the series, Inferno, by Troy Denning, is available through Amazon for preorder. It will be released on August 28th.
The book after that, also by Denning, is available for pre-order, Fury will be out on November 27th.
It's been awhile since I've bought a Star Wars book, but is $8 the going rate? I remember when all the paperback novels were $6.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun, what exactly is Kyp's worst transgression against the Order or the government...
Didn't Kyp try to blow up a populated solar system?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
(man, I am so geeking out right now)
Well, in regard to the Mandos in Bloodlines, the Mandos in general and Boba in particular had a plot that intersected with the main plot (and provided some nice continuity and backstory that worked in the prequels). That intersection was at Jacen's interrogation of a certain mandolorian woman. So it never seemed irrelevant. Nor was its movement toward the main plot meandering or slow. Right now, I read those sections as, why should I care. I can see POSSIBLE hints. But is that Traviss and her crush or is this something that the other 2 authors will bring to fruition. IF the former, its a waste of time (and a bit of a disappointment).
I am certainly willing to hold things in abeyance. But if the next book (by Denning, I think) doesn't mention them at all (or even the next after), then I honestly have to wonder if the Mandos are relevant to the story-arch that was decided by all of them, are or simply Traviss' crush on Mandos culture in general. Cuz if its really that important, then at least one other should mention it.
I didn't expect Jacen to whip out his, patent pending (14553234), Sith Sacrificer 5000 model lightsaber and do it on a rock with the Sitharian Sacrificial Chorus in the background. But I excpected something similar to the death of Neilani. An 'I'm sorry, but I have to do this...', cold blooded, calculated, willingness to see something to the death, kind of thing. Yeah, he was going to kill Mara and chased her into the cave. But AFTER she had come after him. I honestly thought he'd have to off his girlfriend or daughter, because that kind of sacrifice would truly show how committed he was to peace. He said he would bring peace and order for his daughter above all (and started the Dark Nest war for that reason.) Irony being that, he would bring peace and order as a Sith, but the one person he wanted to do it for the most would not be able to enjoy it. A supreme test of his devotion to the cause and supposed unselfishness.
Thing is, Jacen is selfish. Just not about the things we usually think of as selfish. It's not money or women or even a good reputation that he craves the most. It's not even completely power, in and of itself. Quite simply, its being right when everyone else is wrong. Think about it. His whole life has been about going against the grain, trying to prove that he was right all along, whether it was deciding that a Jedi shouldn't fight, when clearly the will of the force was that it should, to taking over a government and sacrificing everyone he cared about's opinion of him. However much they hate him and want to destroy him, he can be the martyr, smug in the fact that he 'saved the galaxy and imposed peace,' and that true greatness is never appreciated. 'No good deed goes unpunished,' but at least HE knows how great he is and what he did for others.
That is the arrogance that is so different from Luke or any of the Jedi (though I detested Kyp for so long. It was only since Dark Nest that I really saw the writers get a handle on him and make him a more likable and stable person. I loved how he protected the Jedi from Omas by making up a story about a Jedi devil's advocate.) But Luke and the rest are never afraid to try to learn, to admit they are wrong, to seek out guidance from the force.
Trying to remember. Have we ever, once, seen Jacen seek guidance from the force in regard to the Corellian war? Has he ever tried to discern where the galaxy was headed, on his path of dictatorship? Or has he always measured everything against 'I am not doing this selfishly, like Anakin.' Hasn't his attitude been, 'I regret killing innocents. But I will keep doing it, even torturing them to death. I even can be wrong, like when I ordered the death of my parents on the flimsiest of grounds, but at the time I thought I was right, so it was a right action.' For him, the ends justifies the means. But, and this is a key point, the ends he is seeking (or the end he is seeking to avoid, like killing Luke if he didn't kill Neilani) is very nebulous in terms of actually bringing about peace.
Jacen has always had the, I know better than everyone attitude. Luke, at best, had the I'm don't think I know better. In fact, I'm sure I don't. So I better step back. In fact, he imposed order on the Jedi Order as a ploy, not because he wanted it. It backfired. Sure, Luke's attitude may have been the wrong one, or even protracted a war (which is highly debatable. 100 Jedi were NOT gonna stop the Vong in the first few years anyway.) But Luke has never willingly sacrificed innocent people, by themselves, to accomplish some nebulous good, at least not once he grew up to see more shades of grey (contrasting him as a kid blowing up the death star versus Jacen as a fully mature adult torturing people to death and killing acquantances and relatives simply to accomplish some larger goal.)
And that is why Mara's death fell flat, as a sacrifice. Because it was self defense. And thus, was not as chilling or cold-hearted as it could have been (and I wanted, weird me.)
Jacen and evil? ahh, it can be so hard to define. I think so. But then again....I don't know. I just know how cold it was when Jacen promised Ben they'd find out who did it, how two-faced and lying that was, knowing he caused Ben the greatest pain. But here, again, the sacrifice fell flat, because it was self defense. If he had decided what the sacrifice really was (Ben's respect for him, though it really could have been Allana) and then acted, then this would have been a hundred times worse. He would have knowingly caused pain, simply to increase his power. That is a Sith way (think of Darth Bane, after he was poisoned, in Path of Destruction).
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Lyrhawn,
quote:I'd debate the 100 Dark Jedi vs. YV thing, but I think Hatrack's Geek-o-Meter would EXPLODE if we did that.
I ain't scared of that:p Basically, what would be on 100 Dark Jedi's agenda? Probably not conquering the entire galaxy systematically as a team, killing as many civilians as possible in the process. They'd be focused on wiping each other and the Jedi out.
----------------
Neo-dragon,
quote:Not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun, what exactly is Kyp's worst transgression against the Order or the government, taking a more proactive stance against pirates than he was supposed to?
Why not counting when he was under the influence of Exar Kun? But alright. He's lied to the order, lied to friends within the order, and defied the order, many times, and people have died for it.
quote:Fair enough, but the fact is that Luke was recognized as the leader of the Order. He didn't assume authority through questionable means because his pride told him that he could do better than anyone else. Luke pretty much represents the antithesis of Jacen. He's often too humble to try and enforce his will upon others while Jacen is too arrogant not to. I'm not trying to say that Luke's side of the coin is much better, I'm just backing up what I said about Jacen having the biggest superiority complex.
How is that true, when the leader denies his leadership? A leader has to own up to the job first. For a long time, Luke didn't. To be fair, it's not Jacen's pride telling him he can do a better job...even though so far, from the point of actual governing, he's right. The true difference between Luke and Jacen isn't that Luke won't force his will on others, it's that Luke will squirm and writhe about it a lot longer than Jacen will.
quote:And what exactly did Jacen ever even try to learn from Lumiya? He used her as tool for doing his dirty work, and to help him understand the prophecy so that he could become an official Sith Lord. I don't think that he ever thought of her as a teacher/master so much as a stepping stone to his destiny. He had many such stepping stones during his travels, but as far as I can tell he just got what ever he needed from them and moved on since he feels that he's above any one philosophy or teacher.
His entire current philosophy derives from Vergere's and Lumiya's teachings, neo-dragon. He acknowledges that. He wouldn't even have taken steps to become a complete Sith Lord without it.
quote:I don't think that I am. He's indirectly stated that he understands the Force better than every jedi who lived before because he insists that they were all wrong in believing that the Force has light and dark sides. Since that was a fundamental understanding of the Jedi Order for as long as it existed, but he believes that he has proven it wrong in the 10 years or so since meeting Vergere, he's essentially saying, "1000 generations of jedi got it wrong but I figured out the true nature of the Force by the time I was 30!" He's also made it clear that he thinks he's better than even notable Sith Lords like Palpatine and Vader, who he sees as proud and selfish (while failing to note similar qualities in himself) to the point of self destruction.
You have to bear in mind he doesn't know much about those thousands of generations of Jedi. Almost all records of them were destroyed in purges by Palpatine. He knows that he disagrees with a fundamental interpretation of the Force held by current Jedi, and that's it. And besides, Luke was guilty of much the same hubris at Jacen's age. As for Palpatine and Vader...well, again, Jacen isn't being selfish. We've been over this, and selfish people don't live their lives for others. Proud? Jacen isn't proud.
quote:However, their peace keeping was responsible for a galaxy that hadn't seen a major war for 1000 years prior to the clone wars, and they managed this without trampling on people's rights and freedoms like the Empire did and Jacen is doing now. For all their faults, the old Jedi did serve the people and democracy. Jacen serves only himself because he believes that he is the highest authority.
Perhaps if the Old Jedi Order hadn't been so stupid and hidebound, they wouldn't have set the stage for Palpatine and the Empire so very nicely. Also, no organization which openly tolerates human (or, sentient) slavery can in my opinion be said to be serving "the people". Finally, what rights and freedoms is Jacen trampling that aren't often 'trampled' in wartime, as this is?
quote:The NJO only had 100 members!
Where'd you get that number? Anyway, once Luke pulled his head out of his ass and started treating the Order as a cohesive organization and used it to intelligently fight the Vong, even their small numbers were decisive in the victory.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Perhaps if the Old Jedi Order hadn't been so stupid and hidebound, they wouldn't have set the stage for Palpatine and the Empire so very nicely. Also, no organization which openly tolerates human (or, sentient) slavery can in my opinion be said to be serving "the people".
To be fair, the jedi were stretched pretty thin during the time of the prequels, and a galaxy is a pretty big place. There may have simply been nothing they could do about it. If I remember correctly, slavery wasn't allowed in the republic, and it primarily existed only in border worlds where there was very little centralized law.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yes, that's true ricree101, but they had literally thousands of years too.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Didn't Kyp try to blow up a populated solar system?
That was while he was controlled by Kun.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:The NJO only had 100 members!
Where'd you get that number? Anyway, once Luke pulled his head out of his ass and started treating the Order as a cohesive organization and used it to intelligently fight the Vong, even their small numbers were decisive in the victory.
The number is stated in "Vector Prime" and probably some other books in the series. The "Unifying Force" also says that the Order was down to around half that number by the war's end. To put things in perspective, almost 200 jedi died in just the battle of Geonosis in "Attack of the Clones" (source: "Attack of the Clones" novelization). The OJO had about 10 000 members prior to the clone wars (source: "The Phantom Menace" novelization), and they still considered themselves to be spread way too thin when tensions starting rising. Realistically, 100 jedi can't do all that much on their own in a galaxy wide war. They needed support from the military that they weren't getting until after Coruscant fell. If Luke had been reckless and launched them headlong into the front lines, the jedi Order would have been wiped out, possibly for good this time.
I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
As far as Jacen being selfless and living for others, I don't buy that. A lot of evil people convince themselves that they heroes. He's taken it upon himself to shape the galaxy as he, and only he, sees fit for the sake of lofty and vague ambitions like order and peace. Not unlike Palpatine and Vader, but Jacen convinces himself that he's better because his motives are pure. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:That was while he was controlled by Kun.
I'm with Corran on this one, I don't think he was controlled so much as... influenced... And he did show later tendencies toward excessive force, even after what should have been a really harsh lesson.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:That was while he was controlled by Kun.
It's been amply demonstrated that in fact he wasn't controlled by Kun. If he were, Luke Skywalker would've been killed, it's as simple as that.
quote:I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
They could've leaned on the Senate to do something serious about it, for one thing. They could've put a stop to it when they encountered it, for another. As for picking their battles...well, for example, one of the battles they picked was to interfere in a trade dispute as opposed to combating sentient slavery.
Hardly a ringing endorsement.
quote:As far as Jacen being selfless and living for others, I don't buy that. A lot of evil people convince themselves that they heroes. He's taken it upon himself to shape the galaxy as he, and only he, sees fit for the sake of lofty and vague ambitions like order and peace. Not unlike Palpatine and Vader, but Jacen convinces himself that he's better because his motives are pure.
You can not buy it all you want, but if you examine his own internal thoughts as shown in the books, he actually is doing what he's doing, over and over and over again, for others. He even broke it down in percentages, once. 90% for others, 9% because he wanted power, and 1% was doubting. You can argue that he's lying to himself, but that's a different matter.
Order and peace aren't lofty and vague ambitions when they're actually pursued and possible. And let's face it, for the masses, what he's done so far has actually enhanced order and peace in the galaxy.
Palpatine was clearly not pursuing power for peace and stability, he was pursuing power because he wanted it. With Palpatine, the percentages were reversed.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Palpatine was clearly not pursuing power for peace and stability, he was pursuing power because he wanted it. With Palpatine, the percentages were reversed.
In one of the books (perhaps Outbound Flight) I thought it was suggested that Palpatine was preparing and uniting the galaxy for an upcoming threat, possibly the Vong invasion. If so, his motive would be similar to Jacen's, perhaps even more noble. The percentages may be different when compared to Jacen, but I don't know that I'd go so far as to say they were reversed.
Both Jacen and Palpatine exhibit arrogance and overconfidence in their powers and insight into the Force. They both give too much importance to their Force visions and their abilities to shape the galaxy and the future.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:You can argue that he's lying to himself, but that's a different matter.
That's exactly what I would argue. In my eyes, Jacen is no different than many other evil Sith Lords and dark jedi who came before, he just thinks he is (there's that self-righteous pride again).
Oh, and about Kyp, perhaps "controlled" by Kun isn't the right word, but at the very least he was heavily influenced. And to be fair, he wasn't even a jedi yet at the time.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Yeah, in Outbound flight, Palpatine seeks to destroy the Jedi and form an empire. Clearly he wants revenge. But he also is concerned about the Far Outsiders, who would wipe the floor with the old republic.
Not saying Palpatine is altruistic, by any means. But there are also some motivations that could also be considered altruistic.
I mean seriously, aside from Lumiya's SAYING Palpatine was a megalomaniac, how different really is he than Palpatine. Yeah, Palpatine created a war to come to power. But couldn't that also be justified by the desired goal, to bring peace to the universe.
Ben even wondered, to Mara, for the average imperial citizen, how bad was the empire. The answer, I believe, was not very, if it wasn't interested in you. But for the majority of people, one could claim, it was no different- and even a sight better. How, exactly is it different for Jacen?
It's not. Once 'the ends justifies the means' is adopted, Palpatine and Jacen are the same, one is just a little further along the road than the other.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:I don't really see why you blame the old jedi for "tolerating" slavery. What exactly could they do about it? Go to all the fringe planets that weren't even under Republic jurisdiction with their lightsabers blazing, free all the slaves, and then... leave so it can start again when they're not watching? 10 000 jedi in a galaxy of something like one million inhabited worlds can't single handedly stomp out every injustice. It's a simple fact that they have to choose their battles.
They could've leaned on the Senate to do something serious about it, for one thing. They could've put a stop to it when they encountered it, for another. As for picking their battles...well, for example, one of the battles they picked was to interfere in a trade dispute as opposed to combating sentient slavery.
Hardly a ringing endorsement.
They couldn't have convinced the senate to do anything because as I pointed out, the worlds where it happened were outside of the Republic. Padme mentioned that there was no slavery within Republic/jedi jurisdiction. Stopping it where they encountered it wouldn't work either, because what would have happened after they left? They couldn't permanently post jedi on outer rim worlds just to sit there are make sure that slavery doesn't happen. They focused their manpower on trying to prevent major wars from breaking out.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Gyah! Dammit, I just read a spoiler while I was flipping through trying to see a response to what I'd typed before. I'm boycotting this thread until I read the most recent book. I'll be back here in a couple weeks.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sorry, Lyrhawn In my defense, though, it is a given in this thread! *wince*
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well I just finished reading Sacrifice.
I found myself actually starting to care a bit about what is going on with the Mandalorians, but I don't care at all about Boba Fett's personal life. It's wasted air considering how many more interesting characters there are to focus on. But the reformation of Mandalore is actually starting to look kind of interesting, if not a little limited in scope.
I'm extremely surprised that none of them suspected Jacen in Mara's death, and I also can't believe that Mara didn't go non-corporeal, even if the last and only thing she did was to appear before Luke to inform him of her real killer. The Jedi, politically and influentially, are beyond marginalized I think. They don't do anything, and have no influence anymore with the government. Luke is fumbling and has no idea what is going on, and Ben is only now starting to really figure out how things work.
I'm interested in what happens in the next book, and I found Mara's death to be passable, and believable, sad as I was to see her go, she was, next to Corran, my favorite EU character. After how Jacen responded to his parent's in the last book, his listless feelings on killing her don't surprise me at all, but I find the duality between how he feels towards his family and how he feels towards Tenal Ka and Allana a bit jarring. He isn't emotionless, he's just very selective.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I find the duality between how he feels towards his family and how he feels towards Tenal Ka and Allana a bit jarring. He isn't emotionless, he's just very selective.
Bear in mind that he's already accepted that he'll probably have to kill Tenel Ka someday.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
quote:Bear in mind that he's already accepted that he'll probably have to kill Tenel Ka someday.
You think so? Hmmm. I had gotten the impression that he was relieved that his 'sacrifice' (if you want to call it that) was Ben's love and respect for him by killing his mother. As much as Travis tried, that intangible was not nearly as painful as a full on calculated cold-blooded killing of someone he truly loved (in the vein of Neilani, which I honestly thought it was going. Would be on a par with Anakin's entering the Jedi temple and the younglings asking him what's going on, and he ignites his lightsaber. Just...so very cold.)
And the fact that he SEEMS to have gained new sith abilities (such as jedi battle coordination) seems to indicate that this was, in fact, the sacrifice necessary to set him on his path.
He may kill Tenel Ka, but only if she figures out he had something to do with it.
And it is kind of wierd for Mara to die corporeally so as to leave clues when she could have just appeared to Luke, told him she loved him, and what Jacen had become a sith lord. Kinda easier than expecting, CSI: Jedi Temple to figure it out (unless that series is branching out into space-fantasy novels)
BTW, Tom, am still curious about your thoughts on that short story. Thanks.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, that brings up another point: why on Earth is "Jedi Battle Coordination" a power bestowed upon Sithlords only?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
got me. seems stupid. Personal opinion is that they took what Zahn created (in Heir to the Empire) and attributed to the Emperor (mental coordination of all his forces) and made it an instantly aquirable skill, rather than one that took effort to create. You might remember CBaoth somewhat straining when he did as much in The Last Command.
But given it is merely a force created meld of non-force users mediated (and perhaps directed) by a master, it doesnt seem to be only something a sith lord should do (though, again, it should not be simply a skill you achieve when you receive that sith mantle, as if it were easy or something). I suppose, though, that if battle meditation were a light form of control (akin to what C'Baoth tried to do that officer who conducted him to Wayland- remaking his mind- only to a much lesser degree), then it might be something the JEdi, as 'ethical' beings eschewed.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Tom,
quote:Bear in mind that he's already accepted that he'll probably have to kill Tenel Ka someday.
Hmmm. I read it a bit differently than you do. I think he's accepted the possibility that he might have to kill her someday-another layer of uncertainty between the idea and the act, really-but he seems to fight tooth and nail to keep that as far away as he can. However, as of Sacrifice, he seems to have accepted that Telen Ka will certainly hate him bitterly one day in the future. But he's already crossed the 'hated by family' bridge.
----------------
As for why that particular force ability would be Sith Lord only...well, given their heavy emphasis on control and domination and power, it does fit them pretty well. Whether or not a Jedi Master could do it is less important than whether one would.
Finally, I'm not yet convinced that Jacen has made his sacrifice...or that Lumiya had the whole story. Really, now there's only one thing that could possibly have the whole story, and that's the Sith ship. Bear in mind, Lumiya's tutelage was itself incomplete...unless you took her word for it.
quote:And it is kind of wierd for Mara to die corporeally so as to leave clues when she could have just appeared to Luke, told him she loved him, and what Jacen had become a sith lord. Kinda easier than expecting, CSI: Jedi Temple to figure it out (unless that series is branching out into space-fantasy novels)
Heh, I hadn't thought of that. On the other hand, in canon wasn't this particular ability (appearing as a blue-blurry ghost) designated as a special ability of those who focus on the Living Force that Qui-Gonn specialized in?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Frankly I don't think all of the EU jives when it comes to the non-corporeal thing. Anakin, who I think probably knew more of the Living Force than most any of the New Jedi didn't go ghosty on them. But that Twi'lek who died on Ithor when the Vong were attacking disappeard from her bed ghost style, and she was only a Knight, and not only that, I think she was heavily brushed with the dark side, and not to Anakin's level of Force understanding.
And they specifically said in Sacrifice that Mara had chosen not to go non-corporeal, but frankly I think it was a dumb choice, if that is what she did. She could have said goodbye, and imparted valuable knowledge. As one of the top two or three Jedi Masters in the galaxy, I can't imagine it wasn't an option for her.
As for Jacen and Tenel Ka, I don't think he is at all willing to kill her, or at least, he certainly isn't willing to kill Allana. I think he's made it clear there.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Heh, I hadn't thought of that. On the other hand, in canon wasn't this particular ability (appearing as a blue-blurry ghost) designated as a special ability of those who focus on the Living Force that Qui-Gonn specialized in?
Anakin Skywalker seemed to learn how to do it in mere minutes after his battle with Luke, as demonstrated in the final scene in Return of the Jedi. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I meant more on the still-alive side of things, actually.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
In looking at the wookiepedia, i was reminded that the sith tassles were made by Lumiya to entice and instruct Jacen. That fact makes the 'prophecy' much more suspect, more like a self-fulfilling thing, rather than some external, will of the force, kind of thing.
That makes the subsequent books and character attitudes toward that prophecy rather strange. It'd be like me making up a prophecy about someone else and then wondering about how they would fulfil it. Who am I?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Should we be using spoiler warnings for "Sacrifice"? Ah well, it's a bit late to start now.
My only problem with Mara's death and the events surrounding it is that Traviss, and I assume the other authors as well, are going out of their way to make the characters stupid just to stretch out the suspense of Jacen coming out as a Sith. Ben hears him talking to Lumiya and confessing everything. This is a BIG deal! But he decides not to tell Luke for no good reason. Instead he tells his mom... who also decides not to tell Luke for no good reason. In fact, Mara Jade, who is known for nothing if not her intelligence, survival skills, and pragmatism, decides not to share this vital information with anyone before she goes on an incredibly dangerous mission all by herself. So of course she dies, and Ben can't reach the obvious conclusion that if Lumiya didn't kill her then Jecen is the prime suspect. In fact, he STILL doesn't think it's worth mentioning that Jacen was Lumiya's apprentice! He knows that Jacen has messed with his memory before, and he knows that he's the only living person who can expose him. Why hasn't he told anyone?!
It always makes me so frustrated when the good guys in a story could get to the bottom of things in 2 seconds if they just talked to each other.
As for Mara leaving her body behind, she was primarily concerned with leaving forensic evidence behind. Sure, her Force ghost could have told Luke that Jacen killed her, but would a ghostly manifestation that presumably only jedi can see hold up as evidence in a trial? Of course, there's the fact that Qui-gon Jinn left his body behind but still managed to communicate with Yoda after death. The truth is that I don't think that EU authors really know how to handle the whole jedi ghost thing so they leave it alone for the most part.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
That is a good point, neo-dragon. I guess forensic proof is necessary (though Jedi before haven't always acted like they needed proof for others, just themselves.)
And lack of communication among good guys is, bar none, the most irritating thing about many stories. I bet this series could be cut in half if people actually TOLD what they knew to those they admitedly trust. I honestly think they said, 'ok, Jacen starts on his path in book 1, takes an irrevocable step towards the sith and takes a name in book 4 (half-way point), and then we have 2 books before everyone else figures it out and everything comes to a head in the last 2 books.
Watch for Ben to be largely MIA (off on some personal quest or something) in the next book- artificially to keep him away from Luke and revealing about Jacen- with the focus largely on Luke, his grief, and its effect on the Jedi. Oh, and the mandos will once again be MIA (aside from, perhaps, a mention of their new ships.)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:As for Mara leaving her body behind, she was primarily concerned with leaving forensic evidence behind. Sure, her Force ghost could have told Luke that Jacen killed her, but would a ghostly manifestation that presumably only jedi can see hold up as evidence in a trial? Of course, there's the fact that Qui-gon Jinn left his body behind but still managed to communicate with Yoda after death.
Oh come on, none of them are that naive. They knew how these Jedi thing go. None of them ever come willingly, especially Sith who want to change the galaxy. Evidence? Courts? What does that have to do with anything? When it comes down to it, it's good hunting and a fully charged lightsaber, he won't be coming quietly.
quote:Watch for Ben to be largely MIA (off on some personal quest or something) in the next book- artificially to keep him away from Luke and revealing about Jacen- with the focus largely on Luke, his grief, and its effect on the Jedi. Oh, and the mandos will once again be MIA (aside from, perhaps, a mention of their new ships.)
I think we'll get a fair bit of Ben/Luke bonding in the next book, but I think Ben will be a prominant force in the book after next, if the cover of the book and the title are any indication.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The only conceivable reason I can think of for MARA of all people to be remotely concerned with a trial would be Jacen's growing power in civilian authority circles.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Even in "Revenge of the Sith" the Jedi needed a legal reason to arrest Palpatine (his failure to relinquish his emergency powers even after Grievous was confirmed dead and the war was effectively over) rather than just the fact that he was a Sith lord. Jacen has considerable political, military, and popular influence. The jedi can't just declare that they have proof that he's a killer and haul him into the temple kicking and screaming. No, he won't come quietly regardless, which is all the more reason why the jedi will need the authorities and the public to see that they are working within the law. Otherwise, the next thing you know Jacen would claim that the Jedi tried to assassinate him to take over the government and inform GAG that every single Jedi is now an enemy of the Galactic Alliance...
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Slightly off topic, but I have to again strongly recommend The Secret History of Star Wars. Both intelligent fans and critics of the films will appreciate this well researched book. In many ways, it is a 'textual criticism' of the movies using hundreds of old interviews, scripts, and deleted scenes. Ultimately, one can clearly see all the seams of what became The Tragedy of Darth Vader, which it wasn't originally supposed to be. And how Empire Strikes Back was the pivotal film that both gave us Darth Vader=Father Skywalker and thus birthing the prequels and, ultimately due its profoundly grouling filming, killed the planned sequel trilogy forever.
Seriously, after reading it, I can appreciate it all in a whole new way. Along the way, while very critical of Lucas' deliberate obscuring of the facts and acting as if he had it all planned out from the beginning (revisionist history), I found myself appreciating the humanity of Lucas all the more.
I cannot recommend this book more highly to both fans and those who are more critical of the series for literary and continuity reasons (but are still interested in the GFFA- Tom, I'm looking at you in particular.)
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Okay... time to ressurect this topic. And let me take part in the discussion. The next Legacy book came out today (Inferno), which appears to feature Kashyyyk prominently (do the Wookiees defect to the Confederation or something?).
From the hints on the back cover, it looks like Luke is going to go Confederate because Jacen is evil and controls the government. I feel sorry for him if he indeed does that; it's like deferring to Communism because George Bush is in power. The Confederation is still a bunch of arrogant, pigheaded, spoiled fools that do as many atrocities as the GA has (considering the Confederation is younger, that means things don't look too good).
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I got my copy today. So far I've just read the prologue and the first chapter.
*PROLOGUE SPOILER*
I'm not sure I like the idea that flow walking can actually change events in the past ie. Tahiri getting to kiss Anakin before he died, or even the fact that people can detect flow walkers. Time travel and Star Wars just don't mix.
*END SPOILER*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It'll come as a shock when we learn that Jacen is Qui-Gon Jinn.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Inferno SPOILERS*****
Good. Nice to see people talking and sharing and the Jedi not being so dense. Emotionally tiring. The hatred for Jacen Solo continues to grow in me, as well as a strong like for Ben. First glimpses of the Force Legacy Sith and an unnamed Sith Lord (Darth Krayt, in the comics, which I haven't read about except on Wookiepedia.)
Major Pet Peeve: Interesting, here, how Denning's pet characters (Salust and the Ewok- in a very short scene- and Alema Rar) play such pivotal roles in THIS plot (as well as in the other books, notably Alema). But I note that once again, the Mandos and the Fetts, who took up (wasted) half of Sacrifice, once again play no role whatsoever. Not a mention, not a scene, not one thing (oh, except for the mention of the murder of Ailyn Fett). Only serves to reinforce the artificiality of what I can only see as a Deus Ex Machina in Travis' novels that they will become. Rar, a Denning character, plays roles in all the books by Allston and Denning. She is integral to the entire storyline. The Fetts and the Mandos play no role in anything non-Travis. That screams artificial, pulled-out-of-your-nether-regions-solution. And it is frustrating to feel like you are wasting plot time on something that is like that.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO: Interesting, here, how Denning's pet characters (Salust and the Ewok- in a very short scene- and Alema Rar) play such pivotal roles in THIS plot (as well as in the other books, notably Alema). But I note that once again, the Mandos and the Fetts, who took up (wasted) half of Sacrifice, once again play no role whatsoever. Not a mention, not a scene, not one thing (oh, except for the mention of the murder of Ailyn Fett). Only serves to reinforce the artificiality of what I can only see as a Deus Ex Machina in Travis' novels that they will become. Rar, a Denning character, plays roles in all the books by Allston and Denning. She is integral to the entire storyline. The Fetts and the Mandos play no role in anything non-Travis. That screams artificial, pulled-out-of-your-nether-regions-solution. And it is frustrating to feel like you are wasting plot time on something that is like that.
I haven't really been reading the current books, but I would like to add that this is pretty much the reason that more or less the only pre-NJO books I will recommend are the ones by Zahn or Stackpole. Those guys actually went out of their way to keep using the EU characters and settings consistently across all of their books. They actually managed to make the books act like an ongoing saga rather than just a backdrop to tell their individual stories.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Though Zahn does seem to love his Outbound Flight.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Wait, you're saying that Zahn and Stackpole are not guilty of pimping their pet characters in their books? Aren't they the guys who started the trend? Everything Zhan writes must heavily feature Mara and/or Thrawn, and it's always a safe bet that Corran Horn will practically be a superhero in Stackpole's works.
That's not to say that their EU work isn't good though, but every EU author I can think of who's written more than 2 novels pimps their own characters, even when they're not important.
[ August 31, 2007, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Wait, you're saying that Zahn and Stackpole are not guilty of pimping their pet characters in their books? Aren't they the guys who started the trend? Everything Zhan writes must heavily feature Mara and/or Thrawn, and it's always a safe bet that Corran Horn will practically be a superhero in Stackpole's works.
No, they definitely pimp their own characters a lot. What I like about them is that they don't ignore other people's characters nearly as much as most of the other writers seem to do.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I suppose. It really is apparent in the LotF books though. The Denning books not only feature the Sullustan, the Ewok, Alema, and Saba more than the others, but they also manage to work in references to the Myrkr mission or the Dark Nest as frequently as possible. Allston books always feature Wedge and his family, and we all know what Traviss' "Fettish" is. Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Pimping your own characters is, as the examples given show, normal. And there's nothing wrong with that, per se. But in a singular arc-series each author, while bringing their own strengths and interests to the table. But note the balance between major and minor pet characters. A perfect example- Denning's Juun or Tarfang, or Allston's Antilles. They show up and play roles at critical times or provide a unique perspective. But they are never confused with major characters. Though they will no doubt play some role in the final book, I have no doubt that it will be minor. Contrast that with Alema Rar, a pet of Denning, but still critical to the entire arc. She plays aa role in each book. She is acknowledged and used, even minorly. Her importance is major and she will have a big role at the end. This is logical. (contrast with Aurra Sing, who may show up but only to play a minor role.)
Travis, though, makes the Mandos/Fetts half the book. She makes half the story to be about them. Their importance is elevated (as it was in book 2, when it was conceivable that this series was partly about them). But each book they DON'T appear in demonstrates how little importance the other authors place on them. In fact, knowing Denning is writing 9, I'm sure they won't play much a role, now that I think about it. At most, they will play a very minor role. So why do we waste time on bit characters? It'd be like spending half of Ender's Game on Graff and his familiy. He plays a big role. But he doesn't (and certainly his presumed family wouldn't) warrant that much of the plot. But that is what Travis does.
I find it pathetic.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Yeah it's pretty pathetic.
I stopped reading halfway through the NJO and never finished the last Dark Nest. I think I read the first Legacy book.
I'm happy enough reading spoilers. Even in the Bantam era I didn't care about what happened to Lando or Wedge. I just cared about Luke, Leia, Han (and their kids). If I hadn't been 10 when I'd read all the Young Jedi Knights books simultaneously with the Bantam books, I probably wouldn't care about the kids either. I actually skim read the Thrawn books when I was younger because I didn't find Thrawn interesting enough to read about and pay attention to.
The new books have so many random Jedi knights that seem to have appeared from some of the books I didn't read that I don't know their histories enough to care, and it just annoys me.
Sacrifice screamed, "Buy me so you know who dies", but really, if I'd read the book, that's all I would care about, so I was happy to read the spoiler.
I didn't care when I heard they killed Mara. Zahn pimped her our way too much. Besides, I had a lot of trouble buying the fact that the emperor would have his own force user trained. I buy it a little more than the idea of him having a kid with three eyes.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
AAK! No, PLEASE don't bring that up!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO:
Travis, though, makes the Mandos/Fetts half the book. She makes half the story to be about them. Their importance is elevated (as it was in book 2, when it was conceivable that this series was partly about them). But each book they DON'T appear in demonstrates how little importance the other authors place on them. In fact, knowing Denning is writing 9, I'm sure they won't play much a role, now that I think about it. At most, they will play a very minor role. So why do we waste time on bit characters? It'd be like spending half of Ender's Game on Graff and his familiy. He plays a big role. But he doesn't (and certainly his presumed family wouldn't) warrant that much of the plot. But that is what Travis does.
Agreed, 100%. I don't know why Del Rey didn't just allow her to write her own stand-alone novel about Fett and the Mandos, or maybe a series of short stories or something. Horning them into LotF is pointless.
I still think that Denning references the Myrkr mission and the Dark Nest crisis too much though.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
My last couple of posts have focused on the series as a whole because I've only just finished "Inferno". I can now give some thoughts on that book in particular.
*INFERNO SPOILERS*
It looks like Jacen has truly crossed the line and entered the realm of irredeemable super-villainy. Taking the academy hostage and burning Kashyyk (sp?) are unjustifiable. I'm glad that the authors are showing us that the dark side of the Force really does warp people's minds. I've always been against the crap that Vergere fed Jacen and the rest of the Order started to believe in the NJO era: that the dark side could be used safely if one's intentions are good. Jacen's making it quite clear that it doesn't matter what one's intentions are. If you give in to the dark side, you're just going to end up like Palpatine. Even he thought that he was giving the galaxy order and peace. Jacen's totally lost sight of the fact that his brutal methods are actually escalating war, not ending it.
And then there's Ben. It's hard for me to decide how I feel about Ben. I was mad at his stupidity when he was Jacen's lapdog, but even now that he sees Jacen for what he is, I still don't like how he's handling it. He's becoming even worse than Jacen. He's prepared to sacrifice innocent lives just for revenge. At least Jacen thinks his own transgressions are in the name of galactic peace. It's starting to look like Ben, at just 14 years old, is going to break the Skywalker/Solo family record for fastest dark side fall. I know it's not his fault though. Look at what this kid has been put through! If anything, I blame Luke and Mara for being such horrible parents and deciding that it wasn't their place to make decisions for their 13-14 year old son.
Anyway, I think that "Inferno" is easily one of the best books in the series so far. "Tempest", "Exile", and "Sacrifice" had a bit too much filler and it was starting to feel like the story wasn't going anywhere. "Inferno" got things back on track.
By the way, are Kam and Tionne dead? Denning kinda ended the incident on Ossus rather abruptly. I assume that Tionne is alive and just lost a couple of limbs, but if Kam is actually dead I think he should have gotten a bit more than just a passing reference.
*END SPOILERS*
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
having never liked Jacen (he was always a self righteous arrogant jerk) it is somewhat amusing to know how Vergere and Lumiya played him. They appealed to his ambition and delusional need to always be right and fed him a pathetic Sith accountant (Vectivus- and weren't Alemas thoughts on him hilarious) as an example, and he bought it. Hook line and sinker. He's nothing but a stalking horse for the Korriban One Sith. So very sad.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, Alema's thoughts on Vectivus made me laugh. Now we know what happens when an accountant turns to the dark side. lol.
*Edit* I forgot to mention above that I think I hate Tahiri now.
[ September 02, 2007, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Ever since Bloodlines, I've been hypothesizing that it will turn out that it was really Luke and Mara that had turned to the dark side, in a different way from the paths Jacen and Ben are taking.
The Korriban stuff is over the top, but I suppose it justifies the loads of new Sith that those stupid Legacy comics are introducing.
During the tail end of Sacrifice, I got the notion that Mara really was starting to act out of vengeance and deferring to her old Emperor's Hand ideologies. Judging Jacen, a family member who honestly believes he's doing the right thing, as an irredeemable Sith who must be destroyed is hypocrisy. It's the exact same logic Jacen used when he made the decision to fire on his parents.
Luke is being even worse. When some say Luke wasn't becoming suspicious of Jacen quick enough, I think he was being far too judgmental.
Ben seems to actually be the most rational character in the entirety of Legacy of the Force. Recently, yes, he has been using his logic and reasoning skills to justify his personal feelings and what they call for, which is in itself the dark side. However, instead of being overly proud of his status, his assumptions (or his "destiny"), like his parents and Jacen, he is still a person who will not act until he knows all the facts, and will act in very astonishing ways to get the facts. This is what makes Ben the most mature of any of his mentors or guardians.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Just finished reading Inferno.
I don't buy Tahiri's turning. She used to firmly be on the side of Leia and Han, and I find it hard to believe that she'd turn to Jacen and become a lapdog just for a hand out of Anakin-visions, which apparently has the same hold on her that drugs would on a normal person (which I find even harder to believe given her history). I don't like her character at all anymore.
I'm ridiculously sick of the Alema Rar storyline. For the love of God just kill her and be done with it. Korriban and the Sith are over the top, I agree, just be done with it. The Mandalorians should be in a separate series unless they can establish any sort of relevance to what is going on now. I thought the last book did that, but then no follow up.
I think it's clear that Kam is dead, and I'd imagine if Tionne isn't, she's at least crippled with none or few limbs. I found their deaths to be rather useless and fairly unceremonious. Killing Mara to spur the sorts of emotional changes we've seen is one thing, but killing the two of them just for the heck of it? Meh, doesn't really jive with me.
I find it extremely hard to believe that the people on those ships and the people of the Alliance in general are stupid enough to go along with his brutality without making the obvious links to Palpatine.
I like that Luke finally managed to pull his head out of the black hole it was sucked into and went postal on Jacen. He really seemed to be back in control of the Jedi in that book, at least until the end. I was REALLY getting sick of confused topsy turvy Luke.
Much as I thought this was a very active book that moved some characters in good directions, I found myself strangely not super excited about where the series goes. And I agree with comments others made about the characters the authors use in the books, they even admitted to a bias in the interview that was in the back of the book.
I think Zahn and Stackpole were a bit better at it. Stackpole based the point of view of his books largely around Horn, but he did a very good job of covering everyone else around him. Zahn, I thought, also did a great job of covering the non-Mara characters in his stories.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
quote:I find it extremely hard to believe that the people on those ships and the people of the Alliance in general are stupid enough to go along with his brutality without making the obvious links to Palpatine.
I find this a very telling point. Then again, most people (especially the voting public) never pay much attention to history. Or they think that this situation is unique and that this time ('this time' they say with such naivete) it'll be different. And remember, for most people (those not on the radar- aliens, rebels, and anyone caught or thought to be doing something the government didnt like) life under the empire wasn't all that much different from life under the alliance. Add in all the wars and the pathetic UN-like weakness of the alliance, and they might look back a bit wistfully on the imposed 'stability' of the empire. Heck, some people in Russia do that now regarding Communism.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yes, you have to remember that the days of Palpatine may not seem that long ago for us fans, but for the characters, it was almost 40 years ago. Many of the officers serving under Jacen wouldn't even have been born when the Empire was at its worst. I think that that's part of the reason why characters like Ben can spout off that "was the Empire really so bad for regular people?" crap like he did a few books ago. Sometimes you have to live through something to really get it.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Also...
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I think it's clear that Kam is dead, and I'd imagine if Tionne isn't, she's at least crippled with none or few limbs.
If Tionne is alive, missing limbs shouldn't be too big a problem considering how sophisticated their prosthetics are.
And...
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I'm ridiculously sick of the Alema Rar storyline. For the love of God just kill her and be done with it. Korriban and the Sith are over the top, I agree, just be done with it.
I think they're trying to establish more solid links between the LotF books, and the Legacy comics that take place almost 100 years later. In the comics, it's revealed that there's been a Sith order in hiding since the time of the Yuuzhan Vong war.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes. But the comics suck. And always have. They should be treated as their own, special continuity, perhaps the "SWUckiverse," where all truly sucky Star Wars ideas go to die.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Hey Tom, you going to LV for the Windows Connections conference?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I ignore the comics for the most part as well, but "Legacy" is at least intriguing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Yes, you have to remember that the days of Palpatine may not seem that long ago for us fans, but for the characters, it was almost 40 years ago. Many of the officers serving under Jacen wouldn't even have been born when the Empire was at its worst. I think that that's part of the reason why characters like Ben can spout off that "was the Empire really so bad for regular people?" crap like he did a few books ago. Sometimes you have to live through something to really get it.
My guess would be a large portion of the senior ranks were young kids fighting the Empire 40 years ago. People like Gavin Darklighter know exactly what they are up against. Besides, the ONLY people who flourished under the Empire were male humans. Women and aliens of all kinds were repressed, so what stability are they looking back on wistfully? That's like, and I mean this quite literally no matter how bad it's going to sound, but it's like Jews looking back on WWII and saying, "well gee, at least under Hitler Germany was strong." It makes no sense. Sure the Empire was powerful, and stable, but that came at a ridiculously bloody price. As soon as Kashyyk burned it should have been a giant wake up call. I can easily see how they'd be willing to look the other way with the terrorists and a few dead Bothans, but this is different, this is Death Star territory.
And for people who have holographic technology and who are pretty good at keeping history alive when someone isn't intentionally out to destroy it, I find it hard that there aren't people out there making the obvious allusions. I bought it up until Kashyyk, but that's too much.
Good point about Tionne, if she survived, I'd imagine she does have prosthetics.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ian: sadly, no. We usually catch the ones in Orlando.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Truth is, Lyrhawn, that bothered me too. The fact that NO ONE in the government or media is talking about the similarities to Palpy's rise. We even have a word for it, Godwin's Law, when the rise of Hitler is invoked in a discussion on the internet. Of course, they have been nearly continuously at war for the past 40 years. But you'd think pundits or political makeriks, the John McCains, Howard Deans, Dennis Kuciniches or Jon Stewarts who live in that universe would have a field day.
So, yeah, it bothered me. Glad that the Jedi, at least, pulled their heads out and dropped Jacen quickely and clearly, instead of all the hand-wringing that we had begun to see.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
The thing is, once Jacen decides to burn Kashyyyk's forests, it is very clear that his subordinates are less certain of Jacen. In fact, by the time they get cornered by the Bothans, it seems clear that pretty much the whole fleet thinks Jacen is a rotten evil bad guy.
The Legacy of the Force series isn't told from a common man's point of view; it's told from the point of view of the Jedi (light and dark) and of Jacen. Both of them have firsthand knowledge of what's going on (at least in general) and are independent on the media's commentary.
I find it very likely that EVERYONE has heard some kind of speculation by the media, but it has either been dismissed as speculation, or is unpatriotic (considering the Galaxy has been at war for the last few decades, I'm sure people have been driven to cling close to the establishment and support it, as the surge in national pride peaked during World War II and has since dwindled). Those who are genuinely suspicious of Jacen and his political affiliates just use it as just another reason to join the Corellian Confederation, which a whole bunch of systems think is "cool" now.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
One thing we need to remember when discussing how the galaxy seems to be viewing Jacen Solo's behavior is that for 20+ years, he's been considered a top-tier hero. We can make all the comparisons to Hitler and other despots that we like, but Hitler was a nobody before he entered the world of politics. I can't really think of a real-world analogue to any of the main Jedi or political figures in the Skywalker and Solo families.
Also, let's not forget that Jacen is lauded as the one person most responsible for ending the most hurtful war in the galaxy's history, and that happened a helluva lot more recently than did the Empire's New Order. I can imagine that Jacen would have vast pull with the very people figures like McCain and Stewart in the real world typically sway, the young and the disaffected with the political system.
As for the story, I'm a bit baffled and disappointed (from a reader's perspective) by some of the decisions they're having Jacen make. I'm surprised and annoyed that they seem to be painting things as Lumiya being the one who was the master manipulator, who stopped Jacen from making over-the-top cliched villainy moves. It doesn't really fit in with his character from before, the master of concealment, patience, and deception.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I just got "Fury" (a few days before the official release date). I have so little free time these days that It may be a while before I actually finish reading it though.
Posted by Lostincyberspace (Member # 11228) on :
Jaina is the one who really should have gone evil.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
She did. She got better, theoretically anyway.
I was reading bits and pieces of Destiny's Way the other day, and I think that's where they started screwing up the different person they made Jacen Solo. The Jacen Solo talking to Ganner Rhysode in Traitor is radically different from the Jacen Solo having a fun vacation in Destiny's Way. I can't really reconcile the two, and I think if they had, many subsequent character growths would've been much better.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: She did. She got better, theoretically anyway.
Being a moody b*tch for about a week does not constitute a fall to the dark side.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Was that all it was? I forget. That was not one of the SW books I read thoroughly. It's been that way for all the books after Zahn's trilogy: some of them I read, and some I mostly skim through. It's also a little bit baffling how dumb Luke was after Traitor. When Jacen told him all that had happened to him, surely Luke should've realized that he learned something in order to be so calm about it. And for ever trusting Vergere, whose only constant lesson was that no person can ever trust another.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I wouldn't say that was all it was. But those books were right around where I stopped reading because the writing and plot were getting so bad.
Some day I will finish up the NJO out of sheer boredom.
I'm not that bored yet.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't understand what you mean by 'I wouldn't say that was all it was' KQ. Overall it's really too bad, though. I can't help but think that there must've been many, many excellent authors who would've been willing to write one or more of the stories, but who were passed over.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I wouldn't say that her being a moody ***** for a week was all the dark side stuff was.
('Twas a direct response to your "Was that all it was? I forget.")
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I really can't think of any other way to describe it though. I mean, I would have called it jedi PMS but I didn't want to offend any of the ladies. She was just moody and b*tchy for a while because she lost both of her brothers. Comparing that to the falls of Anakin Skywalker or Jacen is a joke. What's the worst thing she did, mess with someone's memory I think? Not quite the same as slaughtering children or burning planets. It annoys me when people act as though Jaina knows the dark side as well as people who have really been lost in it.
BTW, "Dark Journey" was easily my least favourite book in the NJO, and I think it left me with a permanent anti-Jaina bias.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Um, didn't she throw dark force lightning around and kill some people (probably Vong, but still killing in anger)? And afterwards when she was jaunting around the Hapes Cluster mowing stuff down? She was in a downward spiral.
Sure I don't think she fell like Vader or Caadus, but come on, it's not like she stubbed her toe on the Force spectrum, she dabbled in some seriously dark stuff. I'd put her in near the same category as Kyp, because I don't think his acts were willful, he was under Exar Kun's influence, whereas Jaina CHOSE to do all the things she did. I'd say she understands it as well as Luke does, from when he went dark and came back.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Luke apprenticed himself to the reborn Palpatine and was an accomplice to the countless murders he committed with his World Devastators. Plus, he has a lifetime of experience facing some pretty nasty darksiders. So I still don't think that Jaina understands the dark side as well as Luke. It seems like practically every member of the NJO has dabbled in the dark side a little. I would only describe a few as actually falling though.
Posted by Lostincyberspace (Member # 11228) on :
Jaina was the technology one and Jacen was the animal/nature one. Normally the techno people go bad and the nature go good. Yhats why jaina should have gone evil and jacen stayed good.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
As far as I'm concerned nothing made post the beginning of NJO (including NJO) is cannon. This includes the prequels. All that stuff was just an absurd attempt to drain more money from the SWU and in the attempt, utterly ruined it. It was around the time those started coming out that I switched from Star Wars to Tolkien as my favorite fictional Universe. So as far as I'm concerned Jacen is still a relatively young jedi student being trained well by his uncle and various friends.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Heh. I personally would have been quite content to see it end with the X-Wing books, but I still consider all of it to be a degree of cannon. The six movies I think are the only things I consider real cannon, but I give EU cannon a separate space in my mind.
Tolkien is my favorite fictional universe as well. I wonder though, if Tolkien had done his work today instead of the first half of the 20th century, and we all saw The Hobbit and LOTR, how many people would see The Histories and The Sil, and now the Narn and what not all as attempts to grab money? I love all of them, actually I probably love the First Age stuff more than the War of the Ring stuff, and I love the prequels for Star Wars too, even if I don't like them as much as the originals. I think all told it's a great arc, even if all the ends don't totally jive together.
There are several books in the EU though that I read once and never went back to. In particular I hated the Killik Trilogy.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I'd say she understands it as well as Luke does, from when he went dark and came back.
Does anyone really understand the dark side as well as Jacen Solo, though? That's another thing that irritated me: the way Luke and the rest of the Jedi just seemed to pat him on the head and say, "Whew! You sure did have a tough time, take a little break and you'll be A-OK again," after Traitor. It irritates me because it's dumb of them to have done that.
I'm trying to think of another SW character who's suffered as much physical and mental pain as Jacen, and coming up blank. Why, therefore, is it so shocking to people that Jacen goes dark later? Why also do so many people seem to miss a bunch of warning signs prior to the current arc? He should've been seriously red-flagged the moment he got back.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think anyone understands it the way he does. I don't think any of them have ever so willingly gone over to the dark side and stayed there, and then chose to RULE it.
But, I can see how they would not see the downward spiral from Jacen. He's always been the most sensitive of the Solo kids, maybe even of most of the Jedi. He's the one who refused to Centerpoint to take out the Vong, and ended up killing half the Hapan fleet by accident. To imagine that he would go from that to killing Mara is a huge stretch. When he came back from captivity they couldn't have imagined what he would have gone through, and even after they found out, I think Luke assumed that Jacen could just power through, and he was totally beguiled by Vergere, because she was, to him, a REAL Jedi, and while he felt alright if not tenuous sparring with her on philosophical issues, I think he felt intimidated by her knowledge and history.
And when he got back from his five year sojourn through the galaxy, they REALLY had no idea where he had been or what he had done. By then, things were already going downhill, and they still had this vision of Jacen from five years ago, or 10 years ago even.
I think if they had seen the changes slowly over the 5 years they might have picked up on it, but they expected him to have not changed and didn't know how to deal. To say nothing of the fact that they had never had to worry about the kind of duplicity that Jacen ends up excelling at.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'd hardly say he (initially) went over to it willingly. One similar example would be if someone were to drug me repeatedly with a narcotic. The strongest drug I've ever taken has been alcohol, but what if someone dosed me with morphine repeatedly? All while brainwashing me? Would it be fair to say, ten years later, that I had chosen to be an opium junkie? Sure, maybe a bit...but it's complicated.
Here's the thing: none of them seemed prepared to even casually look for small warning signs, not even as warning signs of OMG SITH! but warning signs of, "Maybe Jacen hasn't really coped with his captivity and weeks and weeks of brutal torture and brainwashing just yet."
I agree that Vergere did do a solid job on Luke, but I think they could've done a much better job illustrating it. Instead, for some reason, they seemed to want to kill her off very quickly. To say nothing of unnecessarily in that context...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Here's the thing: none of them seemed prepared to even casually look for small warning signs, not even as warning signs of OMG SITH! but warning signs of, "Maybe Jacen hasn't really coped with his captivity and weeks and weeks of brutal torture and brainwashing just yet."
They were too close. When it's someone like Ganner Rhysode or Kyp Durron etc etc, they are people it's easy to isolate and weed out. But look at Kyp even. Do you remember when the Jedi were first starting out, the arguments the students got into over whether or not Kyp was a bad guy? And then when they knew what he had done, the argument over the degree to which Kyp had gone over. Granted they were untrained students who didn't have a clue, but I think some of that mentality, that blindness when it comes to identifying the Dark Side, has seeped into the general consensus. When since even the OLD Jedi Order fell have they ever nailed the bad guy on the head the first time around? It seems to be the greatest strength of the Dark Side, their disciples are masters of guile, and the good guys are almost always at a loss to figure it out. Maybe thousands of years ago in the time of Uleq Qel Droma they were better at it, but meh.
So I think when Jacen came back from his captivity, first of all he was isolated from most of the other Jedi. Initially he was only really around his family, and they were so happy to see him that they didn't really question it, instead, they went after Vergere. Why? Because they didn't WANT to question it, they just wanted to enjoy the fact that he was back. Any questions could be diverted towards a much easier target, and she handled herself quite well.
And I think the Jedi Battle Melds that Jacen was involved in probably went a long way towards healing any of the lingering damage, so that by the time the war was over, they never really gave Vergere or the captivity much second thought.
The problem is that he was still thinking about that stuff when he went on his five year odyssey, and he had zero checks and balances, but when he got back from that journey, people did much the same thing over again. They assumed they were still dealing with little kid Jacen that they loved from before. Happy to have him back again, they didn't ask a ton of questions, and I don't think Jaina was nearly right in the head herself, they hardly knew each other at that point. The people who would have needed to ask questions immediately, didn't. They weren't suspicious of his intentions as a Jedi, they were just a little wary of their PERSONAL relationships. It only started to dawn on them after obvious evidence started to crop up.
And I think that if it hadn't been Jacen, if it had been something that wasn't in the Solo/Skywalker family, it probably would have been spotted a lot earlier.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Lyrhawn,
Well bear in mind we've only got one sample from the Old Republic Jedi trying to pin down a Sith...and the Jedi they were concerned about going dark, it turns out they were exactly right. They simply failed to take into account the x-factor, the master of force-disguise, Palpatine. And discovering Palpatine before he wants to be found is like trying to play the Patriots this season.
quote:And I think the Jedi Battle Melds that Jacen was involved in probably went a long way towards healing any of the lingering damage, so that by the time the war was over, they never really gave Vergere or the captivity much second thought.
I understand why it was overlooked for so long (aside from plot-device). I'm just saying that it's their collective job to do notice things like that. Vergere was right once again: it really is a crappy idea to have Jedi families.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I certainly agree with that.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
My opinion on the Legacy books rests on how they make it turn out. So far, everything has been hinting ever-so-subtly (am I the only one catching it?) that Luke, Ben, Mara, Saba, etc. are turning to the dark side in their response to Jacen. I don't think Jacen ever really was on the dark side until Inferno. Before that, he was just misguided, but after Sacrifice, he really took on a new purposefully evil form.
If the whole Jedi Order shatters and becomes reborn because they realize they've been being very hypocritical lately, work to improve their doctrine, and show the light to Jacen, then I'd have a very very high opinion of the Legacy books. If it ends with Luke killing Jacen, I'll probably petition to vote Troy Denning off the EU author's board. What they have so far is potential for great literary weaving, but the way it's written makes me fearful that they'll miss their chance. I fear my analysis has gone too deep and they're just playing a linear "OOO! Boba found his grampa!" "OK, moving on... Wedge escapes!" "Who cares? Saba PWNs" "Whatever. Mandalore built an uber-starfighter!" gig. I really hope this amounts to more than the Clone Wars cartoons in terms of plot.
In the meantime, I'll keep up-to-date with the EU. There are very good books out there whose awesomeness does not depend fully on the sequel. And in the meantime, I'll try to get my Star Wars video game out before anyone tries to contradict my EU ideas.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Heh. I personally would have been quite content to see it end with the X-Wing books
But, then there would be no I, Jedi, the best SW book ever!!!
I have to agree about the canon stuff. I make my own canon. The canon of "what is What SW Awesomeness Should Be and What is Not." I just can't accept the NJO as canon. And the prequels are, well, iffy. (AOTC almost approached a real SW movie. The first one, for what it was, could have been worse; it had its shining and its horrific moments. And midichlorians need to die.) I can't help but think if GL had had someone around who would dare to tell him when something sucked, they might have been better... And I don't even want to know who came up with the plot line/major plot points for the NJO. I'm waiting for the end of the Legacy books to decide whether I will read them or not. (BTW, Black Fleet Crisis? Also not canon. Also, much as I like some of Barbara Hambly's other books, her SW books? Not canon. Just my opinion, but I will always love some of the SW EU, and what I don't love, well, it's their loss.)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, I've always thought the Dark/Light spectrum in SW was full of crap. The way it's presented, that is, and especially the way it was applied in NJO. If a Jedi can't use the Force to defend against an unprovoked murderous aggressor, what the hell good is it, honestly?
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Well, It seems that there are plenty of instances of using the Force to defend against unprovoked murderous aggressors in Revenge of the Sith. And a few in the Legacy books.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
No one ever said that using the Force in defense is wrong. In fact, Yoda specifically said that the Light Side is used for knowledge and defense. But there's a difference between using it in defense and using it in anger or hatred. Jacen got taken in by the whole philosophy that it doesn't matter how you use the Force, only why, and look how he's turned out.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:No one ever said that using the Force in defense is wrong.
Sure they did. For much of NJO, Luke (and early on, Jacen in fact) spent a lot of time whining that it was wrong to use the Force in defense. They did this by defining 'defense' to mean, "If I stumble upon a Yuuzhan Vong murdering someone while I'm rescuing a kitten from a tree, then I can use the Force to defend that other person. But I can't, knowing that there are Yuuzhan Vong doing lots of conquering and murdering three hours hyperdrive journey away, make that hyperdrive journey to go out and defend those people. At least not while using the Force."
It remains to be seen whether or not Jacen will accomplish his goals with his current Force philosophy. If he really does make the galaxy a better, safer, and more prosperous place, I'm not prepared to just write him off with, "Look how he turned out."
quote:Well, It seems that there are plenty of instances of using the Force to defend against unprovoked murderous aggressors in Revenge of the Sith. And a few in the Legacy books.
Well, that was the old Jedi, which is an entirely different story. Much of what Luke knows about them he learned in about 20 minutes of education at Yoda's hands, and maybe like a half hour at Obi-wan's. But those older Jedi were a pack of schmucks too, IMO, for all the good they did. Writing off sentient slavery on the frontier, for example.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Heh. I personally would have been quite content to see it end with the X-Wing books
But, then there would be no I, Jedi, the best SW book ever!!!
Good god how could I have forgotten that!? I stand most apprecatively corrected!
Posted by Lostincyberspace (Member # 11228) on :
I like parts of the NJO Like brining in the yuzanvong (how ever you spell it) Not the same old evil force bad guy.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I liked the NJO except for the fact that it was a good deal longer and more convoluted than it needed to be. Some of the novels were just filler. If it had been 8 or 9 books instead of 19 that would have been perfect. So far, LotF is better.
BTW, I'm about 50 pages into "Fury", and so far so good.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Some of y'all obviously have VERY different ideas of what constitutes "good SW" than I do. Which is okay. That's why I live in my own happy world where some books were never written and some movies are fan fic. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think we may have very similar ideas, it's just that I don't wanna have Corran Horn's babies Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Rakeesh
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, that's a good thing, since he'd pick me over you ANY DAY. And probably Lyrhawn second. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yes! That means he's been getting all those gift baskets I keep sending.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, but you know that Mirax would kick both our butts before we got near him.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So, has anyone read the latest LotF story by Aaron Allston? I enjoyed it pretty solidly...I think that author has handled things well, and he's written a few X-Wing stories too. I'm not the hardcore fan you two are, so you might remember the name better than I do.
Jacen Solo is made considerably more interesting, IMO, by his continued devotion to his daughter. I do wonder very much what'll happen next, now that the truth of his daughter's parentage comes out. Her interrogation (although the goody-goody Jedi will disguise it as a friendly conversation) and the conclusions reached from it will be most interesting. Will Luke and the others conclude that Jacen was lying to his daughter about loving her, too? Or will they discover his true motivation?
They do some interesting stuff with the whole Sith Battle Meditation thing, and it's crucial in Jacen's victory over Kyle Katarn...I was pleased about that, seeing as how Kyle Katarn is probably the best Jedi from a fighting perspective, it makes sense. I'd be really interested to see how Corran Horn would match up his own pilot-trained situational awareness against Caedus's Sith technique.
It would be interesting, although I hope it doesn't happen because I like Corran (despite how the authors have made him almost a caricature of a stooge for The Man in terms of authority), and that fight could only end in one of two ways: Corran dead, or both of them dead (lightsaber-energy suicide attack).
Boba Fett's influence is felt, and there's more Jag, which I really appreciate. It's nice to see a story in which the smart, dedicated, tough normal guy goes toe to toe with a Jedi and kicks the Jedi's ass. Especially fun that it's partially due to Fett's meddling. They do a great job showing Fett's revenge, too. Hehe, he sends a special set of armor (breastplate and gauntlets) to Han with a note saying, "With my deepest sympathies." It's that Mandalorian armor stuff, and is obviously intended to help deal with Jacen. Players of KOTOR games might recognize some of the stuff.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I haven't read this one yet, but I probably will soon. My brother usually buys the books shortly after they come out and I read them a week or two later. (I just asked him, he has it)
I really liked Allston's X-Wing books. He wrote the Wraith Squadron series (Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist, Solo Command, Isard's Revenge and then Starfighters of Adumar later on), which follows the Rogue Squadron books that Mike Stackpole did. Stackpole and Tim Zahn remain my two favorites of all the Star Wars authors.
If they killed Corran I'd probably stop reading, he's been my favorite character since Rogue Squadron. Either that or I'd care a lot less about jumping on the newest book. Does Kyle Katarn die? My brother will be pissed, that's his favorite character. If this ends up being a slow crawl towards Jacen offing the Jedi one by one, I won't much care for that. We've spent too much time reading about these characters for him to just take them out one by one. I guess I don't so much mind a few characters here and there being offed, it's already happened pretty hard core recently. But we'll see.
If Rakeesh liked it, I'll withhold judgement and give it a chance. You've had a pretty solid take on the books thus far.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm still reading "Fury". Damn my lack of free time. I'm a couple of hundred pages in and still really enjoying it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
From one nerd to another, thanks Lyrhawn
No, Kyle Katarn doesn't die. It's a very narrow thing, though. The setup is basically this: Kyle Katarn, Corran's son...Valis? I forget his name...and several other Jedi (though Kyle is the only Master among them) infiltrate Coruscant and lay an ambush for Jacen via the underlevels.
There's two goals: one is to either incapacitate and capture, or 'neutralize'. The other is to plant a homing device on one of Jacen's snazzy Sithy cloaks. The first part is a total failure, since Jacen is neither killed nor captured. The second part is a complete success, so truthfully Kyle wasn't defeated so mcuh as only half-successful.
Jacen manages to kill one or two of Kyle's entourage, but that was to be expected. Corran's son survives the attack. While Kyle and Jacen are fighting-and things are looking pretty even, bordering on Jacen losing, Jacen uses his Sith technique to notice a great big passing transport that is really outside the awareness of everyone else, as tightly focused as they are.
He then proceeds, in a split-second of distraction, to yank it down and smack Kyle in the back, bringing him nicely onto his lightsaber. However, Kyle and the other survivors narrowly escape and live to fight another day.
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While killing time waiting for my showing of Beowulf, I was in Barnes and Noble flipping through one of the Dark Nest books. Specifically I was looking for the scene where Jacen murders Tenel Ka's grandmother, but I found something else that makes me less liking of the mainstream Jedi.
Luke is in a fight with someone, I forget who, and is about to use the Force to win the fight and kill his target. But instead he does some handwringing and decides it's better, somehow, if he kills his target with his lightsaber instead of just picking them up and smacking them onto a rock. Luke is comfortable with his decision.
How stupid is that?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought he sent her into a coma rather than killing her. Valin, I believe, is Corran's son, named for his..I want to say grandfather. And I think that was his first fight with Luumiya, when he chose to use his lightsaber instead of raw power. And I agree, it's pretty dumb. You can sort of see where his moral argument comes from, that using raw power just to kill someone is an evil act. But making the leap from there to using the force as a much less useful tool as it relates to swordsmanship is stupid in the extreme. How is more moral to kill them via something you are less good at? Is it the risk that you might be killed yourself that makes it better? I don't much care for that reasoning.
The whole grabbing the transport thing sounds dubious. Kyle I imagine would have to be almost as good as Luke or Corran in the whole situational awareness thing. I know Corran worked extra hard at it, being a pilot, and I know at least Kam Solusar did as well, which I would imagine trickled down to the others, but I wouldn't expect non pilots to be as good at it. I know Jacen has some pretty impressive range with knowing what is going on around him, but I find it hard to believe he could grab something that far away, move it that fast and be able to get inside Kyle's own awareness without him knowing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Bear in mind this is Coruscant we're talking about here, Lyrhawn. A very large number of objects of all sizes moving at all speeds. Maybe holding an angry bee convention in the middle of a busy NYC intersection might get you more unpredictible objects, but only maybe.
That's kind of why I'd be interested to see a fight between Corran and Jacen, because Corran is really the only person who has as extensive effort in that field to approach Jacen's Sith technique. Luke, while a brilliant pilot, just hasn't really been in those enormous dogfights, nor has he controlled enormous battles like Jacen has.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Some spoiler warnings, perhaps?
You haven't spoiled anything for me personally since I've only glanced at your posts and I'm already past the Kyle thing, but still...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Good point, I hadn't considered that. Coruscant would pose a unique problem, where distance would matter less than ability to juggle numerous objects, where Jacen would have a distinct advantage.
You're right, Corran probably would be the best at it, but I'd also consider Madurrin an interesting opponent. Remember he was the Jedi other than Jacen that was in control of those Jedi Melds back when they were fighting the YV. He has the same foundation in training that Jacen had in juggling large numbers of units and directing them. As an Anx, he's probably not bad at combat either.
Generally Corran has had to survive lightsaber battles through sheer swordsmanship and guile. Since he can't do the telekinesis thing, he either has to project false images or do the kamikaze crush the opponent thing. So you can bet Jacen will never be stupid enough to stab him to death. I think Corran would be a much more interesting opponent than many others. Luke and Mara showed what happens when Jacen goes up against brute strength, but not against Corran's style.
Edit to add: I think this is one of those threads where spoilers are inherent, it's even in the thread title. You read as your own risk (which I learned myself when Mara died, but still).
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
As far as spoilers go, I don't see why we can't or shouldn't use warnings for a least a week or two after a new book's release.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Neo-dragon, I'm not sure what your complaint is. This thread has a constant spoiler warning. You cannot even post in the thread without having the title up on the screen warning of spoilers.
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quote:Generally Corran has had to survive lightsaber battles through sheer swordsmanship and guile. Since he can't do the telekinesis thing, he either has to project false images or do the kamikaze crush the opponent thing. So you can bet Jacen will never be stupid enough to stab him to death. I think Corran would be a much more interesting opponent than many others. Luke and Mara showed what happens when Jacen goes up against brute strength, but not against Corran's style.
Something that hasn't been explored to my recollection is just how long Corran can store energy he absorbs. I mean, we've seen that he needs to let it out if, for example, a gigantic warehouse packed with fuel and explosives goes up around him, or a geothermal vent puffs up around him, but what about a smaller scale? What if he just popped himself one on the forearm with a low-setting blaster bolt?
Anyway, as for swordsmanship, as the series shows it, Corran can at best simply match Caedus, not beat him. As for guile...well, honestly it depends on which author we're dealing with. We've got either "I'm gonna threaten to murder some kids!" villainy, or, "I'm gonna stage the murder of Mara Jade" villainy guile. Teeter totter.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I didn't mean to make a fuss about spoilers, but my main concern is that when you have threads like this with only a general warning people can't dare come in and discuss unless they are completely up to date in the series, and sometimes that robs us all of some worthwhile insight. This isn't so much an issue for me personally since I usually get the books right on the release date, and even with my lack of free time I'm finished within a week or two. And it really only takes a second to type: "FURY SPOILERS" . . .
I'll shut up about it now. I just wanted to let you know why I brought it up in the first place.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm halfway through "Fury" and I'm liking it. Surprisingly.
Maybe it's just that I've finally bought into Jacen as Darth Caedus, a Sith Lord with a serious attitude problem and a lot more flaws than your average bad guy.
Spoiler warning, for neo's sake . . . . Seriously, how did he NOT see Centerpoint firing? I saw it almost IMMEDIATELY. I figured at least at some point he'd figure it out, but I guess his father DID still have something to teach him, and hubris never dies.
I wouldn't mind seeing a somewhat more meaningful exploration of Jaina. They've just introduced this idea of where she's at mentally, and I'm glad to see Jag and Zekk have made up, as that was REALLY getting old.
I'm excited to see how it ends, and I'll post again when it does.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Glad you're enjoying, Lyrhawn:)
Re: Jaina Solo, in the preview of the next book at the end of this one, that's heavily alluded to. Like everyone else she wants to kill him, but she's incapable of it right now: seriously, Caedus would mop the floor with her. Well, I won't tell you who she decides to go to to address the problem, but I think you'll really enjoy it:)
----------------
As for Centerpoint...well, really, you're right, he should've seen it coming, but it was pretty unlikely. To be fair, he did know there was a trap coming, and was prepared for all but the one he had good reason to think he'd already handled.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
*FURY SPOILERS* . . . . I wish that Kyle Katarn had died. I've always thought that he should remain as the two-dimensional video game character that he was designed to be, and stay out of the novels. Failing that, I would have liked to see him killed off. It was cruel for Allston to tease me like that.
Otherwise, I really enjoyed "Fury". I'm quite happy with the quality of this series overall, although each entry has its weaknesses. I really, really don't care about Corellian politics and I wish that "Fury" hadn't wasted pages on that little subplot about replacing the Prime Minister or whatever. And although it's only a minor thing, I don't really like how the authors insist on working in subplots about their pet-characters (I think I've mentioned that before). Because "Fury" is an Allston book it had to involve the Antilles family and Celchu, and the ending sets up heavy Fett involvement in the next book, which is of course by Traviss. I understand that each author has characters that they like to write about, but it just makes the series a little less consistent when Fett, for example, is an important character in every third book, but is barely mentioned in between. Speaking of which, I'm surprised that Alema wasn't killed off in a Denning book, since she's one of his pets. I'm not at all surprised that Jag got to do the deed though.
Also, I really wish that the truth about Mara's real killer would come out already. They know about everything else Jacen has done, what's the point of keeping the heroes in the dark about this particular atrocity for going on three books now? Although, I'm sure that the truth will finally come out in "Revelation". At least the secret of Allana's parentage is finally out. By the way, did anyone else think that it was neat to have another "I'm your father" moment in Star Wars?
Finally, I couldn't help but notice that in the preview of "Revelation" Ben thinks about the fact that Qui-gon Jinn supposedly killed a Sith Lord on Naboo. Was that the author's mistake or did history books in the SW universe just get that wrong for some reason?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, there was that whole Jedi Purge thing, in which not just Jedi but lots of information about Jedi-beyond vague myths and fabulous tales-were eradicated.
Specific records about the dealings of the Jedi with Palpatine's direct subordinates would, I imagine, fall neatly into that category.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, I'd considered the fact that Palpatine might want to downplay Obi-wan's accomplishments in particular since he was one of the most well known jedi heroes of the Clone Wars. But it still seems like a rather random discrepancy that will have readers scratching their heads for a minute.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I do agree that that little discrepancy should've been addressed, since it has been years since the informational aspects of the purge have been mentioned in a book, if memory serves.
It's sort of glossed over now in this post-prequel world, but before the prequels for some strange reason , characters in Star Wars books had little to no idea of what went on prior to the Rebellion.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm really starting to dislike Traviss; I get the impression that she, even more than all the other self-obsessed authors of these novels, doesn't bother to read the other books. I liked Fury quite a lot -- but the short clip from Revelation bothered me. Why? Because we see Ben resolving to honor his mother's death by "living for her" -- which is almost precisely what he reminds his father not to do in Fury. That whole bit about the dangers of attachment, in which Ben is the first Jedi ever to correctly identify what about "attachment" is actually bad? Happens the book before. So why is Ben getting obsessed with determining whether Jacen killed Mara or not? It simply doesn't matter -- and the Ben of Fury knows that. The Ben of Revelation, as written by someone who clearly didn't read Fury, didn't get that memo. Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I enjoyed it. and it was nice to have some resolution with regard to the alema plot. I am curious about the whole One Sith group. My initial impression was that they (led by an unnamed Darth Krayt) were using jacen as a stalking horse. now, well...they seem less oriented to that kind of scheme, so I'm not sure. while the next book looks pretty good (and the mandos may get more to do than simply serve as traviss' obsession) I am also bothered by the indication that Ben has regressed character wise. By the end of this book he had moved on (similar to the way Han dealt with Chewie's death and AnakinLs role in it at the end of Vector Prime) But, as Tom observed, now Ben has regressed (just like Han in the next NJO books who abandoned his family and responsibilities, blamed Anakin, and became a smuggler, for around 2 or 3 books). I read an interview which stated that they really only go off an outline, as the books are written relatively concurrently. Any changes are synced up by email. In this case, I'm guessing Allston wrote his book with Ben's resolution since it probably wasn't delineated clearly in the outline. Travis, seeing a potential for some Ben growth and soul searching, made that resolution a major part of the next book. Syncing showed a contradiction, so she threw in a (lame) after the fact justification, rather than change the book. I think overall its a weakness of the process (largely designed to churn out books every 6 months).
But overall, I really like this series.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Just finished Fury, and I liked it, I really liked it. I pray to everything that is holy that Alema is really dead, as I think it really frees up the plot by us not having to deal with her.
I really like who Jaina turns to for help. I sort of thought she'd find some Force user to be her teacher, but she has the raw Force power she needs, what she needs is Jedi hunter skills. Good development, and a much better way to deal with the exploration of the Mandalorians without making it seem totally extraneous.
As far as what Tom said about Ben, I don't know. He's not exactly one dimensional at the moment. He has the front he puts on for his father, and then there's another Ben that he keeps reserved. I don't think it's hard to believe that he'd say one thing to Luke and really feel something different. His father NEEDED him to say what he said so he'd get over Mara, or at least stop actively grieving over her, but he still wants to kill Jacen because of Mara. I'll have to see what Traviss does with it, but I'm not automatically angry over it.
I'm a little curious about them not dealing with the aftermath of what Tycho did. I was a little surprised to see him do it, especially when he had to know it'd have zero effect on the attack itself, and if it DID work, everyone on the shuttle would probably die. That seems extremely out of character, no matter how dedicated he is to the GA.
Fury was a major uptick in the quality of the series, I really liked it, and I hope the whole series keeps up that level of quality.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, what Tycho did kinda bugged me. Complete loyalty to the GA even when its leader is obviously evil. Hello! Tycho used to be a TIE fighter pilot, but he defected! By his reasoning for what he did in "Fury", he should have stuck with the Empire out of a sense of duty.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah, and they even reminded us of it. I would have believed it if they said he did it only to throw suspicion off himself, but Allston specifically went into his thought process to say it was his own decision.
I didn't like it at all.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
BUMP!
Book 8: "Revelation" officially comes out this Tuesday, but I managed to find a copy a couple of days ago. I started reading it this morning. I just wanted to mention two things so far (no spoilers). For one, it's over 400 pages which I think is a good thing. Of course, this is a Traviss book, so there's no doubt that there will be about 100 pages of pointless Mandalorian stuff. The Traviss books always suffer a bit due to her "Fettish". Also, with regards to this...
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon:
I couldn't help but notice that in the preview of "Revelation" Ben thinks about the fact that Qui-gon Jinn supposedly killed a Sith Lord on Naboo. Was that the author's mistake or did history books in the SW universe just get that wrong for some reason?
It seems that it was a mistake in the preview, as in the actual book it says Kenobi. That's the kind of thing that OSC would put a fan's name in the acknowledgments for pointing out. Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
It doesn't take a fan to point THAT out.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I did enjoy the Mandalorian stuff, to an extent. But the series has gone almost totally off the rails for me.
Jacen Solo / Darth Caedus is now almost completely stupid. He draws ridiculous conclusions from just about everything. For example, Captain Shevu, the cop who works with Ben Skywalker to try and prove Jacen killed Mara (murder is not really the right word for it).
Caedus spends a lot of time thinking about how, because Shevu is unafraid of him and his dislike is plain, surely that means he is in essence trustworthy, and believes in Caedus's mission.
He spends basically zero time thinking about his daughter, and she isn't mentioned by anyone in this installment, which is stupid as hell in my opinion. If you want to look at the causes of Caedus's turning (and that seems to me to be a wise idea for his enemies), hey, why not focus on his daughter, the secret he was keeping for so long?
The Mandalorians smacking him around. Just seems kind of silly to me, even though he was really tired when it happened. OK, lightsabers don't work on their magic iron. Well, Caedus and Tahiri are Sith. They're always armed. Zap `em with lightning, pick `em up and throw them into each other, grab their heads with the Force and twist `em like a bottlecap, the options are endless.
It's taken people, what, over a decade to realize, "Hey, maybe Jacen was fundamentally changed/damaged/destroyed by his long-term brutal torture and brainwashing at the hands of the Vong and the Sith." Well hello, newsflash!
Admiral Daala. Why is she a good guy now, or at least presented as one? She's like a technological (instead of biological) Dr. Mengele.
Why did Darth Caedus lose almost all of the political and personal cunning and cleverness in manipulation that Jacen Solo was known for? Jacen Solo: doing evil in the shadows, lying plausibly about it completely undetected, and getting even total enemies to do what he wants without them ever knowing he wants it. Darth Caedus: "I'll go all Moff Tarkin-style diplomacy on your ass."
Jacen Solo started out, for me anyway, as sort of reminescent of Yoshi Toranaga from the novel Shogun by James Clavell, at least in his approach to politics. Totally ruthless, but also quite effective, as well as generally thinking at least one or two steps ahead of both friends and enemies. He was an interesting character, and in fact I wasn't quite sure if I was ready to label him a villain.
Darth Caedus, though. Nowhere near as sharp. Jacen Solo, I imagine, would've guessed almost immediately that the fake fleet at Fondor was a Fallanasi illusion, but not Darth Caedus. Jacen Solo would not treat casually the lingering contempt and dislike of those closest to him. Ugh. He's just a cheesy villain now.
I miss Timothy Zahn! And whoever chump it was who wrote I, Jedi Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Perhaps the same concentrated evil that makes your eyeballs go yellow has an effect on the brain.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Darth Caedus, though. Nowhere near as sharp. Jacen Solo, I imagine, would've guessed almost immediately that the fake fleet at Fondor was a Fallanasi illusion, but not Darth Caedus. Jacen Solo would not treat casually the lingering contempt and dislike of those closest to him. Ugh. He's just a cheesy villain now.
I miss Timothy Zahn! And whoever chump it was who wrote I, Jedi
Michael A. Stockpole.
Can I just say I love this thread? The ridiculousness of the tangled web that is now the EU bugs me enough not to read any more of the novels and I hate the minor characters. Meanwhile, theforce.net boards are a little crazy and hard to get spoilers from.
Despite what the writers may say, intelligence does NOT run in the Skywalker line.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I gotta say, reading the Fett family soap opera really became a chore for me in "Revelation". Why oh why is Traviss so obsessed with Boba Fett? She (and to a much lesser extent, the other two authors) really force Fett and the Mandalorians into a story that doesn't need them. As usual for a Traviss novel, way too many pages were devoted to the Mandos, but I've ranted on this before.
Unfortunately another major plot in the novel was Ben proving that Jacen killed his mother, which I also didn't find very compelling. For one thing, the audience has known exactly how Mara died since it happened 3 books ago, so it's not like there was any surprise or suspense. Also, the investigation was lame. It took a visit from Force Ghost Mara to tell Ben that he might want to check Jacen's StealthX for some forensic evidence?! Finally, the whole investigation turned out to be completely pointless since in the end Jacen decides to give a detailed confession, because even though he's an almighty Sith Lord who's supposed to be beyond petty concerns, he was upset that a tabloid made him out to be a bad guy! I mean, his own family thinks he's a monster and is trying to take him down, but he gets personally offended when a tabloid questions his morality.
Indeed, as Rakeesh said above, Jacen has become an idiot. I actually think that the change is intentional though. The authors are trying to show us that he's become so drunk on his own power that he thinks he's infallible. Whereas he used to actually think about mundane things like logistics, numbers, and giving proper directions to his troops, he now assumes that the Force just won't let him fail.
I'm sorry to say that I found "Revelation" to be a weak entry in the series. The battle of Fondor was interesting, and I enjoyed the discussions about how Jacen should actually be dealt with (kill him? Try to rehabilitate him?). Some good points were raised at the end. No one tried to redeem Palpatine, but Luke went out of his way to save Vader, and if Jacen was anyone else the jedi would have come down on him with lethal force ages ago and saved countless lives in the process. I'm really looking forward to discovering Jacen's fate in "Invincible". I'm guessing he will live but be stripped of his Force powers.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The battle of Fondor was interesting, and I enjoyed the discussions about how Jacen should actually be dealt with (kill him? Try to rehabilitate him?).
I can't wrap my head around why this is an issue for them. The Jedi are perfectly willing to kill GA troops in these battles. They are perfectly willing to make it possible for Fondor to kill many more GA troops. They all believe that were Jason dead, this war could be ended.
Yet they're unwilling to kill him? No one has presented enough of a reason to make it believable that they actually think that.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
And that's the point that the ex-jedi Madalorian guy raised at the end. They're only hesitant to kill him because he's a member of the Skywalker/Solo family.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
If they decided that they could just up and kill Jacen because it would save the galaxy... say, isn't that Jacen's reason for killing Mara?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Except that Jacen is a clear and obvious threat to the galaxy, whereas killing Mara was based on a vague Sith prophecy that suggested Jacen might have to kill someone close to himself to ascend to true Sith Lordship. He didn't even decide that Mara was the one until after the fact.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Dagonee, the thing to remember is that in the Star Wars universe, this kind of inward-looking selfishness is part and parcel of the Jedi Order since before Palpatine came to power.
I mean, they signed on for clone armies, and actually led them in battle, and for what? A battle against nebulously-aligned Seperatists, but their primary motivation was because they felt there was Sith involvement. Once that switch was flipped, so far as we can tell there wasn't much concern about creating millions of slaves and then killing them.
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I actually enjoy (some) of the Mandalorian stuff. The part I don't enjoy, though, is that they've got this magic metal that's impervious to just about anything, which only they can manage to work effectively.
Sorry, but even assuming no one else could figure it out (and you can be sure, lots of people would try), some ambitious government could always snatch up a Mandalorian metallurgist and torture the knowledge out of him. Not really hard.
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quote:I actually think that the change is intentional though. The authors are trying to show us that he's become so drunk on his own power that he thinks he's infallible. Whereas he used to actually think about mundane things like logistics, numbers, and giving proper directions to his troops, he now assumes that the Force just won't let him fail.
Well, the problem with this is that he had oodles and oodles of power before, and it certainly didn't make him this stupid. Intentional or not, these changes are very forced.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally Posted by: Rakeesh I miss Timothy Zahn! And whoever chump it was who wrote I, Jedi
Now you're just taunting kq and I.
I skipped over all the spoilery parts of this, but I'm in the middle of reading it right now. Thus far, I've actually liked the Fett storyline. His family? Yeah I don't care about that. The revolution of Manadalor? That's actually kind of cool.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:I actually think that the change is intentional though. The authors are trying to show us that he's become so drunk on his own power that he thinks he's infallible. Whereas he used to actually think about mundane things like logistics, numbers, and giving proper directions to his troops, he now assumes that the Force just won't let him fail.
Well, the problem with this is that he had oodles and oodles of power before, and it certainly didn't make him this stupid. Intentional or not, these changes are very forced. [/QB]
Apparently such things take time. There were even references to it throughout the novel. At one point even Jacen reflects on how he used to rely on his conventional senses and judgment more but now he just counts on the Force, and recognizes that it might be something of a weakness. He blamed Lumiya's influence on him. The problem is that he assumes that it's the will of the Force that he's successful. He's just so full of himself that he seldom stops to actually think anymore. He just assumes that he's right and everything will work out.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Now you're just taunting kq and I.
*whistles, twiddles thumbs*
quote:Apparently such things take time.
That's the thing, he's had lots of power for a long time now. He's effectively been a power above and beyond or at the very least different than the rest of the Jedi since his captivity by Vergere in the Y-V war. He didn't turn stupid with power then, though.
When he was manipulating the Jedi, Killicks, and the Chiss into war (or not), he wasn't stupid then, either.
I could, I suppose, buy that Jacen Solo might become drunk on power. But in this story, it's not explained, it's not a gradual shift, it's like BAM! Drunk on power like a sailor who's hitting the bars.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That cheap Corellian power can just sneak up on you.
Someone probably put it in the punch and he couldn't tell how strong it was.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
The transfer was intentional: after he killed Mara, he became really evil, before that he was just dark.
Say, I'm reminded once again of where I got my screen name. The short story of C3PO the Dragon Slayer was something I wrote for an English exam right after I read the first in the Legacy series, and in it is a confrontation between Jacen and Luke. Jacen forgets where Coruscant is, and upon Luke's exclamation that he should know where to find the place he grew up (set aside the fact that Coruscant's coordinates are 0,0,0), he explains that when he turned to the dark side he became a bit stupid.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Maybe it's just me, but I think that this song is just about the most perfect theme music for Jacen Solo I could imagine. The video's kinda lame though. Just listen to the song.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The fanboys and girls who named their kids Jacen are lookin' mighty silly now, huh? (I'm not kidding, I know some of them.)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:The transfer was intentional: after he killed Mara, he became really evil, before that he was just dark.
Even if we assume that this is when he becomes 'really evil' (remember, he was willing to murder a comrade Jedi before; I don't remember exactly, but he was at LEAST complicit in that girl who had a crush on him's death) it's still pretty silly.
Besides, Palpatine was 'really evil', and far from stupid.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've been rereading the Wraith Squadron books and can't figure out how the guy who wrote them (Aaron Allston) could also have written Fury.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:The transfer was intentional: after he killed Mara, he became really evil, before that he was just dark.
Even if we assume that this is when he becomes 'really evil' (remember, he was willing to murder a comrade Jedi before; I don't remember exactly, but he was at LEAST complicit in that girl who had a crush on him's death) it's still pretty silly.
Besides, Palpatine was 'really evil', and far from stupid.
If I'm not mistaken he impaled Nelani himself. I agree that Jacen was already pretty evil before he killed Mara, but something did change at that moment. Lumiya felt the instant he became a true Sith Lord, and Jacen felt his own powers increase as well. I think that's when he became consumed by his own power and lost his ability to think rationally. As for Palpatine, he didn't anticipate that torturing someone's son to death right in front of him might not be the best way to keep him on your side. So maybe he wasn't such a genius after all.
Seriously though, doesn't that song make you think of Jacen?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
neo-dragon,
I haven't listened to the song yet.
OK, so now we're going for some sort of tangible evil is what has rendered Jacen/Caedus stupid?
Is that the way things work in the Star Wars universe? True Sith Lords are stupid as a component of their Sithiness? Boy, I sure hope not.
Fortunately, that doesn't really bear out. Palpatine was a 'true Sith Lord' for at least a decade, probably decades, before he ever made that mistake, and in that time he rose up from a Senator of some backwater nowhere to become Emperor, a position which didn't even exist until he created it.
Palpatine was hardly stupid and incapable of rational thought, and anyway, Vader's betrayl of his Sith master was a surprise to everyone, not just Palpatine.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I was joking about Palpatine, but seriously, power can blind a person. You start to think that you're untouchable, you lose sight of reality, and suddenly you're not making the best decisions. Jacen Solo does not handle power well. They began to establish that fact since the NJO when for a time he was too afraid to even use the Force at all because he was so worried that he wouldn't use it in the right way. Turns out he was right to worry.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Of course power can corrupt. I'm just saying, in the Legacy series it's as though a switch has been flipped. The transition is simply stupid.
Jacen did handle power well, very well in fact given his circumstances, up until the point when it was decided he would be the dagnasty-evil Sith Lord Caedus.
He didn't think he was untouchable until, all of a sudden, they started him thinking, "Hey, I'm untouchable." It was too clumsy, too forced (no pun intended).
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
He wasn't exactly handling his power well when he fried Tenel Ka's grandmother's brain or altered Ben's memories during the Dark Nest trilogy. For as long as Jacen has had powers that go above and beyond those of an ordinary jedi he's been using them badly.
I think that the authors have actually done a pretty good job of showing how Jacen got to where he is. Okay, maybe they're laying it on a bit thick since he became "Darth Caedus", but all things considered he has much more reason to be messed up than his grandfather did. His doubts about the proper way to use the Force in the beginning of the NJO, Vergere's insistence that there is no Dark Side, which came while he was under extreme physical and emotional distress, the touch of god-like power that he experienced when he defeated Onimi, and 5 years of accumulating Force powers that he clearly wasn't ready for.
That's why I predict that the series will end with him losing his Force powers. It's the best way to punish him and render him harmless without killing him, and he's proven that he simply doesn't deserve them. It was done to Ulic Qel-Droma, an ancient Sith Lord, so they've already established that it's possible.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Huh, that'd be an interesting ending. Nomi Sunrider did it to Ulic, and Vergere actually did it to Jacen already at one point back in the NJO series. But I wonder which Jedi would figure it out? Ben? Luke? Jaina? Maybe Leia? Either way, I think that might just be a satisfying end to Jacen's reign, and might actually allow them to deal with him without just lopping off his head.
I'm about halfway through Revelation at this point, and I'm surprised to find myself caring about the Mandalorians, and not surprised that I don't much care about Jacen.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Neo-dragon,
I think you're confusing 'handling well' with 'good'. This is far from what I'm talking about. I'm talking about 'handling well' in the sense that he wasn't using them stupidly. To my knowledge, Jacen was never caught re: frying the old lady's brain. His brain wiping of Ben was never detected either, though it's probably become clear by now, since he's been acting all stupid.
Prior to Legacy, and even in earlier Legacy, Jacen was handling his power quite capably, i.e. he wasn't doing stupid stuff with it. I'm speaking strictly from a pragmatic perspective here.
No, the truth is they haven't handled Jacen's transition well at all. It's been very sloppy and implausible; unless I'm mistaken, you're basically the only person who thinks his transition has been nicely done around these parts, anyway.
Now the transition has been handled well if they were starting from the pre-determined idea that Jacen will go stupid-mad with power, and are setting up for the Force-removal ending. But my point is, that's not the way stories should work. Not good stories, anyway.
I think I'm also frustrated because, for me at least, there were some very interesting issues explored specifically in the book Traitor where Jacen's descent really got started. Those examinations have largely been shunted aside now.
If anyone does wipe Jacen, I predict it will be Ben. Jacen has done it to him, after all. Though of course somehow it was incomplete, basically just to set that fight up.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Other complaints: the tangible motivator for Jacen's descent to Sith, his daughter? Entirely absent from this book.
Also entirely absent: all the other Sith we've seen.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't think that the other Sith are going to be seen anymore. They were only introduced because the Legacy comic series set about 90 years in the future established that Darth Krayt's Sith Order has been in the shadows since the Yuuzhan Vong war. If we didn't get a glimpse of them in the novels people would see it as a continuity error. However, this isn't their story, and they have no reason to come out of hiding yet. In fact, having anyone know about them now would create a contradiction. They're just sitting back and enjoying the show.
As for Allana, I think Jacen's written her off as just one more person who will never understand his greatness; just like his parents, his sister, Tenel Ka, and all the other jedi. In other words, she's now insignificant to him. He's lost sight of why he started all of this in the first place.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'll have to look at it again, but last I read Jacen did not view his relationship with Allana so childishly. It still hurt him a great deal, and he didn't do it for greatness.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The reason Allana only got a cursory nod in Revelation, and Jacen did mention her once or twice, but it was less in a substantive way and more like Karen Traviss going "Mention the parents? Check! Mention the daughter? Check check! Thank goodness, now I can write about the superfascinating Mandalorian farming techniques and their super cool beskar hoes!"
Don't get me wrong, I actually am finding the Mandalorians rather interesting, and I think Beviin is turning out to be on of my favorites of the more recently introduced characters. But I think the Mandalorian stuff would have been better placed in a separate novel, not as a part of the continuing arc that when Traviss writes seems to have less and less to do with the actual arc itself.
Jacen is believable NOW as an utter fool drunk with power but still formidable becuase of that power. But the descent? Very poorly handled. When you look at how cool, calculating and sly he was before this, the descent was sloppy. Other characters have been handled much better, but so what? He's the main character in this little drama, and if he isn't handled well, not much else matters.
Also, I think the Luke/Ben relationship was just plain awkward during the very small amount of time they spent bonding. Considering where they started off at the beginning of the Legacy series, and where they were until quite recently, I think their current status is just weird. I know Mara's death must've hurt them both and driven them together, but Luke being all mushy? I don't see it. Ben's side I buy, but they haven't shown enough of Luke's internal emotional wrangling for me to believe he'd react like that.
I hope the next book covers Han, Leia and Tenal Ka more, and for that matter the Jedi in general. I know it's hard to touch on all the different factions now that there are so many, but this book really only jumped between Jaina and Jacen, with a couple nods to Niathal, Pallaeon and Ben.
Oh, and on a finale note (spoiler): . . . . Pallaeon He was one of my favorites, even if he was technically a "bad guy" in the beginning. He was my favorite kind of bad guy, but really by the end I don't think he was at all. I liked him from the very beginning, all the way back to the Thrawn Trilogy, and I've liked him ever since.
I hope Tahiri burns for that.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Don't get me started on Tahiri. She still acts like a love-sick teenager who needs Jacen to do her thinking for her. I literally had to keep reminding myself that she's like 30 now, which makes it quite pathetic how easily she's manipulated into abandoning her former ideals.
In response to spoiler in previous post: . . . . . Yeah, Pellaeon was a real class-act. It's a shame that he had to go out like that. He deserved a more heroic death.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I got my copy of "Invincible" yesterday. I'm a couple of chapters into it. I'm disappointed by the length though. It's only 299 pages!
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Wait, where did you get a copy this early? It's released on the 13th, right?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Actually, I'm annoyed that I didn't get it earlier! I only recently learned that a certain Canadian retailer has been selling them since the start of May. I could have had it a week ago!
But yes, the official release date is the 13th.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
What a happy surprise. I did not realize another book was coming out this soon.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Isn't this the last book?
Edit to add: Amazon says it's 320 pages. Given the description, it sounds like the finale of the LOTF series.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yes, it's book 9, the finale. And I think amazon counts every single page, including the blank one at the beginning, the title page, dedication, about the author, the ad at the end, etc. Trust me, the final numbered page is 299.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
So do tell what happens when you think it's appropriate.
(I gave up on actually reading a couple of years ago- the subplots with the people I don't care about but are related to the story make it hard for me to get through).
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I will mention one minor (non-spoiler) quirk that I find interesting. Each chapter begins with a joke told by Jacen in his innocent early teen years. It draws quite a contrast between who is now and who he used to be.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Or, more accurately, who he used to be written as and who is he written as now.
I find that when I word it that way, it makes what the people at Del Rey did to him more obviously contemptible.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
It's never bothered me much... maybe because I found Jacen to be about as interesting as a piece of cardboard before he went dark.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well... I'm done. I'm not sure how I feel about the ending though. I need to let it sink in.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Hey, there's a 'ware spoilers tab here: Post 'em up!
Were all the jokes from YJK?
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
I haven't read the books in a long time, but I was a fan of Jacen from the NJO. Which explains why I'm, er, somewhat dismayed at hearing that Jaina dismembers and kills him.
Seriously.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You can't kill a fallen Jedi without first dismembering him. It's part of the code.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well, Emp just posted the big one... Still, I feel obliged to warn one more time:
MAJOR SPOILERS FOLLOW... (Really, I'm about to sum up how the series ends)
Yup, Jaina does indeed kill Jacen. I'm kinda disappointed that in the end they just had him die. I was hoping that he would be stripped of the Force and be condemned to live the rest of his life powerless. His final moments were in fact tragic. He learned that Tenel ka and his daughter Allana were in grave danger just as Jaina confronted him. He tried to tell Jaina that all he wanted to do was warn them, but obviously she wasn't about to trust him enough to let her guard down or relent in her attack. In the end, Jacen accepted death and used his last seconds of life to send a warning to Tenel ka through the Force as Jaina cut him down.
As for other matters, Tahiri become disgusted with herself and allowed Ben to take her into custody. The Moffs tried to assassinate Tenel ka and Allana (that being the danger than Jacen was so concerned about), but failed. With Jacen dead and the Moffs being the suckers who supported him in the end, they were given an ultimatum by Luke after the jedi captured them: be handed over to the Hapans and be tried for war crimes, or accept Jag Fel as their new leader and help reform the Galactic Alliance. They chose the latter. What's more, Daala is subsequently appointed as Chief of State of the Alliance. Those who are familiar with the "Legacy" comic series that takes place 90 years later will notice that these developments in Galactic politics set the stage for what's to come. In "Legacy" the Empire becomes the dominant force in the galaxy again, with Roan Fel (presumably a descendant of Jag) as emperor.
Also, while the attempt on the lives of Tenal Ka and Allana failed, Tenel ka chose to let the galaxy at large believe that her daughter had in fact been killed. We don't find out the truth until the epilogue. In reality, Allana is given a new identity as a war orphan, placed under the guardianship of Han and Leia, and is enrolled in the Jedi academy. Allana (now called, Amelia) declares that she and Jaina will be sisters now, and the last line of the novel is Jaina telling her "welcome to the family".
Finally, apparently Troy Denning likes having characters go MIA (ie. Raynar Thul) because this book ends with Zekk missing, though probably still alive. During a StealthX assault on the Anakin Solo his fighter is destroyed but Jaina didn't sense his death. His fate remains a mystery although Jaina is determined to find him...
END SPOILERS
To answer the question about the jokes, Denning states in the acknowledgments that most of them do in fact come from the YJK books. I can't tell you which ones because I've never even read those books.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
What is this? I post all the juicy spoilers and now nobody wants to discuss? I guess those who don't want to spoiled haven't finished it yet. I'll wait.
*whistles and twiddles thumbs*
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
I stole your thunder. Sorry man.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think their decision to incorporate the ridiculous continuity of the Legacy comics was a regrettable one.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
My only problem with the the Legacy comic series is that I think it should take place farther in the future. The idea of the Sith ruling the galaxy again in less than a century is a little depressing. I do, however, actually like the fact that there's some foreshadowing in the novels.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Okay, so I should go to bed, so this is a bit incoherent. If I don't write now, I won't otherwise, and I do owe you neo-dragon.
Ah. It's quite disturbing that Jaina ends up killing Jacen. I read all the YJK books when I was ten. They're cute. People may hate Kevin J. Anderson, but he sure knows how to incorporate everyone else's stuff into a story.
That news certainly dropped a pit in my stomach, not sure I really wanted to know- but really I was never going to read that book, so thank you for the summary. I can't remember if I have read the first legacy book- I made it through only two of the dark nest trilogy. Well, I guess if Del Rey took Jacen down the Sith path, there wasn't a great way to end it. Okay, not true. I just watched ROTJ tonight, and Luke does a decent job of not killing Vader until he asks for the mask to come off.
Maybe 60 is not that old, but I feel like the whole universe has gotten so convoluted that it doesn't make sense anymore. It's also weird to think of the Solo twins as in their 30s. I can't help but thinking that half the galaxy must hate the Solos, and that Luke Skywalker's personal contributions aren't so great unless the New Republic outlasted the Old Republic. To quote Bob Parr, aka Mr. Incredible, why can't things stay saved? (oh wait sales...)
You know, I had some delusions that KJA killed off Daala in the JA trilogy, but clearly I don't remember those.
The only joke I can think off of the top of my head is Q: How long does Uncle Luke sleep A: One Jedi Knight.
Posted by EmpSquared (Member # 10890) on :
Daala comes back, in, uh...Planet of Twilight? And by the end of that book (or whatever) she's reunited with a past lover and becomes much softer.
And evidently becomes Chief of freakin' State.
I stopped reading at Unifying Force.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
So does anybody want to make a guess about what the next series will involve?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Han, Leia, Jaina, and Amelia (Alanna) go on a hunt to find out about how the 'legendary' Falcon was created (an utterly stupid premise, IMO). In the process, they find out about a plot to not just overthrow the govt but also the force. It's faily obvious that this is leading to Darth Krayt's One Sith and the beginning of their revelation to the GFFA. Sort of a prequel to the "Legacy" comics. For the most part, the Legacy commics have not appealed to me at all.
SPOILERS ********
And I have ambivalent feelings about the concluding LOTF novel. I liked it. I was sad that Jacen had to be killed, but I understood it. I DID like that they had him finally get a clue and pull back from all his random anger-killings and from his emotionlessness. I liked his reasoning that he must hold onto his love no matter the pain it cause. That's the way of the sith. And it is somewhat sadly ironic that he is killed because he's trying to save Allana and Tenel Ka. Just kind of sad, since he died trying to do the very opposite of what a Sith should do. I do like the idea of him being stripped of the force and condemned to live his life out that way. But that was what (kind of) happened with Raynar Thul, also written by Denning. Might have been accused of reusing that kind of thing.
And in the end, how important, really, was Travis's obsession with the Mandos (and all those wasted pages)? Not too much. We didn't see Jaina go all berserker. We didn't see the Beskar ships and armor be ALL THAT important. Jaina won cause Jacen was trying to save Allana. Thanks, Travis, for all that unnecessary, irrelevant information. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by IanO: Han, Leia, Jaina, and Amelia (Alanna) go on a hunt to find out about how the 'legendary' Falcon was created (an utterly stupid premise, IMO). In the process, they find out about a plot to not just overthrow the govt but also the force. It's faily obvious that this is leading to Darth Krayt's One Sith and the beginning of their revelation to the GFFA. Sort of a prequel to the "Legacy" comics. For the most part, the Legacy commics have not appealed to me at all.
Actually, I don't think that the next book is going to tie into the "Legacy" comic stuff. I think it's just a stand alone adventure, kind of like "Tatooine Ghost". Darth Krayt and his gang aren't supposed to be revealed for several decades.
Del Rey's contract with Lucasfilms Ltd. was only recently extended, so I don't think they have any solid plans for a story arc taking place after LotF yet.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
*** SPOILERS ***
I liked when they found Jaina holding onto Jacen with his head resting in her lap, but I think that was about the only thing that I enjoyed in the book.
It seemed mostly full of wasted characters, underdeveloped ideas, and problems or solutions thrown in at the last minute.
Random thoughts:
I would have liked the Shatterpoint ability to have at least some relevance to a fight.
I can't think of any reason for Tahiri's existence in the series.
Does Luke even have a purpose anymore?
The final battle between Jacen and Jaina seemed anything but epic.
I liked how in just a few sentences Denning reversed 500 pages of Traviss's portrayal of Fett.
I blinked and then suddenly the galaxy had attained peace.
The nanovirus thing was a pretty lame plot device.
How long before everyone can hide themselves from the Force?
Every new book makes me less and less interested in the Star Wars Universe.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah that Shatterpoint thing was useless.
It's uber rare and hard to learn but Jaina learns it in like a week and then it never comes up again? Bah.
I'm glad the final battle wasn't epic. It was a street fight. I too wished he had simply been robbed of his powers. It would have been a far more elegent way of taking him out of the picture. And I don't for a moment believe that DAALA was the only UNVIVERSAL choice. I'd think Leia was more acceptable before Daala.
It tied up most of the loose ends, but it was hardly satisfying. I doubt I'll read any more, unless they come up with something cool. I'm already dreading the fights that are to come with those Sith hiding out on Korriban.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The parts I enjoy and the parts I don't enjoy are really hit or miss. I don't read (or comment on) the LotF books like I would other stories, I think.
One of the most interesting things to me about this story is that, with Jacen killed (given the precise circumstances of his death, 'murdered' could possibly be an appopriate term, or 'executed') outright in combat, it will never be known why he went dark.
I remain convinced that most of his reasons and much of his reasoning for that decision was sound. Despite the many bad decisions and mistakes made along the way. Will anyone ever know what drove him to the Sith? Makes it likely his mistakes and his particular Sith legacy will endure: ruthlessness in pursuit of justice and an equitable, safe, peaceful galaxy is something much more difficult to defend against, morally, than something like, "I want revenge on the Jedi, and everyone likes me more anyway, so I'll take over!"
I wasn't upset that Jaina killed him, though, or even that he died, because of what he died for. I think it's quite likely that fight would've ended very differently if Caedus hadn't been frantically worried about the lives of his daughter and Tenel Ka. Possibly at least he would not have been taken so completely by surprise at the start of that fight, and he could have definitely made Jaina's victory lethal for both of them, if he'd chosen to.
But I wasn't unhappy with that because Allana is what he got into the whole Sith business for in the first place. He had a host of other academic and philosophical justifications for going Sith, but Allana was the true motivator. Had he never had a child, a child who grew up in such uniquely dangerous and demanding-of-ruthlessness circumstances as a child of a Queen-Mother of Hapes, I doubt he would have gone Sith. He probably would've simply continued on his Jedi-Academic indefinitely.
I enjoyed the jokes put before each chapter, and the little flashbacks Jaina had. I thought they fit in well.
I haven't read the Legacy comics, but I'm unsurprised to note that the Sith are back again in just a few generations. No one seems to take seriously putting them down everywhere for any length of time. Ironically doing so would have been a job Darth Caedus would have been very well suited, and probably willing to undertake, had things gone differently.
Like IanO, I did appreciate that he had 'learned his lessons' as far as being a genuine Sith leader without the Darth Vader/Darth Sideous reponse to being thwarted.
I'm glad he wasn't stripped of the Force and 'condemned' to live the rest of his life without it. None of the Jedi Council were in any position, morally, to pass that sort of judgement on Caedus in the first place.
I enjoyed how Boba Fett was portrayed, not as an utterly horrible foul monster...but he's not a noble-hearted leader of men, either. He's loyal...sometimes. He looks out for the welfare of his people...sometimes. He does so for good reasons...sometimes. But he's a simply awful, miserable human being always.
Lyrhawn, Leia would hardly have been appropriate because she was, after all, the mother of Darth Caedus as well as having close personal or familial ties to many other major Jedi.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I didn't say she was the best choice. But compared to Daala, yeah, I think she was better.
I think the seeds of Jacen's fall were sown long before Allana was born. He came back from his five year odyssey, and out of the Vong war, a different person. Allana might have pushed him over, but he was already headed there, and I think it's likely he'd have gone over anyway.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Lyrhawn,
Don't get me wrong, I think Leia would've made a better choice too.
Just not to the people within the story. Given her personal and family relationships, Leia would've been totally unacceptable both socially and politically.
I think Jacen probably would have gone dark - or at least abandoned all pretense (with himself) of being a Jedi Knight - but full-blown Sith? I don't know. It's tough to say. What would his motivation have been?
And that's the funny thing, really: Jacen was the only one who actually learned* the lessons of Anakin Skywalker, and how even the best intentions can still lead to horrible results. They did with him as well...but it seems doubtful anyone will ever know it. Perhaps Tahiri did, given her close (but at arm's length also) association with him.
*Others have seen the same history he has, but he was the only one who appeared able to empathize with Anakin's desperation.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think the best part of the conclusion to Invincible was that, in Caedus's 'redemption', Jaina believed she saw a sign of the old Jacen Solo, still buried and alive deep down.
When the truth was, in my opinion, it was still Caedus. Jacen Solo remained Darth Caedus until the end, because Jacen Solo became Darth Caedus in the beginning in large part because of his daughter. Since the only two people who knew all of Jacen well enough to have guessed at that are dead (Vergere and Lumiya), I doubt anyone will ever know. Sometimes people die, though, and we never learn even the big parts of their motives.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's not over yet! Del Rey announced today that over the next four years, 45 more books will be produced, 35 of them fiction novels. Next year, the first three books of the new Fate of the Jedi series will be headlined by Aaron Allston with Outcast. The entire series will be released in hardcover, which I imagine will cut back on the readership, as I know personally I'm not shelling out four times as much to read books that I think are marginally impressive to begin with.
The show must go on! (despite obvious quality issues!)
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, I heard about the new contract. I'll have to hear what the FotJ series is about before I know if I'm interested. All hardcovers is a curious decision. Although, they're not that expensive, since it's not hard to get them at a 30%-40% discount from major retailers. Or just wait for the paperbacks.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Okay, I started reading this thread then realized there was way too much stuff I don't know. So I'll say this, then ask a question.
This: I read Traitor, and it's one of the best books I've ever read ever. Matthew Stover is amazing and book stands on its own even without the entire surrounding story. (I got the book purely because it was written by Matthew Stover. A while ago I stopped buying books because they were in a series I liked and started buying books because they were by authors I liked, since I've read some terrible sequels to books by good authors).
I later read... I think it was part two of the Bloodlines Trilogy. Or something like that. I know it was part 2 of a trilogy. The main characters seemed to be Boba Fett and Jacen (who was in the process of turning) and Jacen's nephew.
The Question:
I want to read more about Jacen Solo. I don't want to read bad books by bad authors. Can anyone recommend the "good parts" of Jacen's arc? I was impressed by the Traitor book partly because it didn't require me to read the prequel stories to get what was going on, and even the Bloodlines book was kinda like that. Recommendations?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Damnit, I just read the first line of the post that started with "Major Spoilers follow." Crap, he wasn't kidding.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I later read... I think it was part two of the Bloodlines Trilogy. Or something like that. I know it was part 2 of a trilogy. The main characters seemed to be Boba Fett and Jacen (who was in the process of turning) and Jacen's nephew.
"Bloodlines" is actually book 2 in a series of 9 called "Legacy of the Force", which is what most of the discussion in this thread is about.
If you like Stover's work, you should definitely read the "Revenge of the Sith" novelization if you haven't done so already. It's not just a good adaptation of the film, it's a good book. He's also writing a book about Luke set in the early days of the New Republic called, "Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor". I'm looking forward to it. Stover is the only author who writes gritty psychological Star Wars.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yikes! Gads, that's a lot of books. I suppose I must resign myself to my fate of no longer reading every Star Wars book that comes up.
*sigh* I remember back in late elementary school and early junior high when I got turned onto the SW: Eu stuff, and every bit of it was-in my opinion-good. Now, of course there was some that was less good, quite noticeably in places (blasted Anderson), but all in all awesometastic in my opinion.
But it ain't like that anymore. Now I don't read as many of the new books that come out as I do, or at least I did during the whole YV war stuff, in which new books were thick on the ground. Now my reading loyalty goes to certain SW: EU authors, and not the entire franchise.
-----------
quote: This: I read Traitor, and it's one of the best books I've ever read ever. Matthew Stover is amazing and book stands on its own even without the entire surrounding story. (I got the book purely because it was written by Matthew Stover. A while ago I stopped buying books because they were in a series I liked and started buying books because they were by authors I liked, since I've read some terrible sequels to books by good authors).
I felt the same way about Traitor. It's still one of my favorites of all SW: EU books, right up there with Timothy Zahn's stuff.
Unfortunately, as to your question, there were good parts in every book, in my opinion. Along with some stuff that I just plain wasn't interested in, in almost every one of them. As for me I *cough* may not have really paid much attention to the sections I wasn't interested in-the pages just flew by!-but read with my usual eagerness the stuff I did.
I'll second neo-dragon's recommend of Stover's Ep3 novelization, too. Great stuff-I think my favorite horrible moment was Palpatine's little conversion pitch.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I've read all the Stover books set in the Star Wars universe. Yes, the adaptation of Revenge of the Sith was loads better than the movie (I have fairly detailed theory explaining how Lucas made the prequel trilogy bad on purpose, and if you look carefully you'll see that the level of badness (in particular, the places where the level of badness rises, falls, and levels off) are metaphors for the badness of the Republic/Empire.
I briefly tried to hunt down some of his others books but there weren't many and the ones that existed weren't available at the time.
I'll keep an eye out for Shadows of Minor there.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Han Solo was bored (I mean, come on, no galactic wars, no Sith-ruled empires, no bounty hunter-wielding Hutts...) so he decided to drag his family on a quest to discover the origins of the Millennium Falcon!
What exactly does he expect to find? Obviously, he's bound to discover a few hints of a new group of Sith poised to reestablish the Empire.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't know if he'll stumble across anything that big. I think it's supposed to be more of a simply stand-alone adventure, like "Tatooine Ghosts" or "Survivor's Quest".
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Well, whatever it happens in the book, this thread reminded me to check for the book at my local library, and now I'm first on the list for Millennium Falcon.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
From starwars.com
quote: Next year also sees the start of the new multi-book hardcover novel series, Fate of the Jedi. Here's the synopsis for the first book, Outcast, by author Aaron Allston. It is due out in Spring of 2009.
After violent civil war, and the devastation wrought by the now-fallen Darth Caedus, the Galactic Alliance is in crisis -- and in need. From all corners, politicians, power brokers, and military leaders converge on Coruscant for a crucial summit to restore order, negotiate differences, and determine the future of their unified worlds. But even more critical, and far more uncertain, is the future of the Jedi.
In a shocking move, Chief of State Natasi Daala orders the arrest of Luke Skywalker for failing to prevent Jacen Solo's turn to the dark side and subsequent reign of terror as a Sith Lord. But it's only the first blow in an anti-Jedi backlash fueled by a hostile government and suspicious public. When Jedi Knight Valin Horn, scion of a politically influential family, suffers a mysterious psychotic break and becomes a dangerous fugitive, the Jedi become the target of a media-driven witch-hunt. Facing conviction on the damning charges, Luke has only one choice. He must strike a bargain with the calculating Daala: his freedom in exchange for his exile -- from Coruscant and from the Jedi Order.
Now, though forbidden to intervene in Jedi affairs, Luke is determined to keep grim history from being repeated. With his son, Ben, at his side, Luke sets out to unravel the shocking truth behind Jacen Solo's corruption and downfall. But the secrets he uncovers among the enigmatic Force mystics of the distant world Dorin may bring his quest -- and life as he knows it -- to a sudden end. And all the while, another Jedi Knight, consumed by the same madness as Valin Horn, is headed for Coruscant on a fearsome mission that could doom the Jedi Order . . . and devastate the entire galaxy.
Dang... I think I'm actually intrigued enough to keep giving Del Rey/Lucasbooks my money.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
me too...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
::seethes::
Don't mess with the Horns!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So, I've started reading the new book so far, though I haven't finished it yet.
It's been a long time since I've read the books where Daala makes her original appearance, but hasn't she undergone a radical personality makeover?
And I don't mean character growth, I mean that she was an ice-cold evil bitch who loved Taarkin, and now she actually didn't love THAT Tarkin?
Seems like the universe has finally ditched its love affair with Jedi without also turning completely against them. Frankly it should've happened, from a plausibility standpoint, a long time ago.
It seems that no one is really aware that Caedus threw his last fight with Jaina. Jaina speaks of worrying what might have happened had she not been there to 'deal with' (paraphrasing) Caedus, when the truth was he abandoned the fight where she killed him.
Overall I'm intrigued with this premise. It's far past time the bigwigs among the Solo and Skywalker families started looking into these matters.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ::seethes::
Don't mess with the Horns!
Don't worry, Lyr. These books don't actually exist. Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
The new one is out?
Tell me if it's good before I buy it. I made the mistake of getting Millennium Falcon and I really wish I hadn't. Worst Star Wars book since Darksaber.
Then again, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor is excellent.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: So, I've started reading the new book so far, though I haven't finished it yet.
It's been a long time since I've read the books where Daala makes her original appearance, but hasn't she undergone a radical personality makeover?
And I don't mean character growth, I mean that she was an ice-cold evil bitch who loved Taarkin, and now she actually didn't love THAT Tarkin?
Seems like the universe has finally ditched its love affair with Jedi without also turning completely against them. Frankly it should've happened, from a plausibility standpoint, a long time ago.
It seems that no one is really aware that Caedus threw his last fight with Jaina. Jaina speaks of worrying what might have happened had she not been there to 'deal with' (paraphrasing) Caedus, when the truth was he abandoned the fight where she killed him.
Overall I'm intrigued with this premise. It's far past time the bigwigs among the Solo and Skywalker families started looking into these matters.
I'm considering getting into this series when it hits paperback, but I'm nervous. How is the writing level? Allston was pretty decent with his NJO books and his X-Wing books, but on the Zahn-Anderson scale (10 being Zahn, 1 being KJ Anderson), where would you rank this thus far?
And how is the plot, in terms of both plausibility and your gut reaction? I'd think you'd be someone excited at the prospect of finding out more about Jacen's fall, since it was a subject of interest to you when the last series ended. If it's too off the wall, it'll turn me off, but frankly, I'll be turned off if they mess with the Horns too much as well. The Horn family is probably my favorite group of people in the EU. While I'll love it to pieces if Corran plays a somewhat central role, I'll probably stop reading if they start killing off Horns or if they are edged out of the story entirely.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm about 2/3 through 'Outcast' and I'm enjoying it, although it's not super-amazing or anything. It is just the first book in the series, after all, so things are just getting started. Luke and Ben's story is interesting and definitely has potential, and I also enjoy the bits about the jedi having to deal with increased governmental oversight. However, Han and Leia's subplot is boring and uninteresting (to me at least). It's like the Fett stuff in LotF. Why do they have to throw in filler subplots? If they don't have enough main story to justify a nine book series they should just make the series shorter. Then again, I still have a bit to go, so maybe it's going somewhere. Allston is the best SW author when it comes to humourus dialogue though. Jaina has an amusing exchange with Kenth Hamner, and Ben wins an argument with Luke without using any verbs, just to name a couple of parts that made me chuckle.
Oh, and as for the Horns, Valin going nuts and trying to kill everyone he knows, including his parents, is an important part of the story.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So far I personally wouldn't put this on par with Shadows of Mindor, which I too thought was outstanding. That said, it's also far above the worst NJO stuff too.
Gut reaction? I'd say 'above average', 6-7, ....however I'd be reluctant to suggest paying hardcover price for it, because it ain't very long. Heh, how's that for a subjective reaction?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I decided that I prefer the SWU to have a bit of hope, to be a world where the Rebellion actually mattered and managed to bring at least some improvement to the galaxy again. So I've decided that everything after The Last Command has simply never happened.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, that's the fundamental flaw in the Star Wars EU biz. Everything has to reset for commercial purposes.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I decided that I prefer the SWU to have a bit of hope, to be a world where the Rebellion actually mattered and managed to bring at least some improvement to the galaxy again. So I've decided that everything after The Last Command has simply never happened.
I tend to block out everything after Vision of the Future. I do pick and choose which ones to acknowledge between the two, though.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Heh. I like Stover, and I haven't read any of his SW books. His Caine series has been great so far.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
My situation was the reverse of that, Kwea:) I like Stover, and the only stuff of his I've read has been (some of) his SW books.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I liked the Jaina-Jag-Tahiri plot line. The government reigning in the Jedi (about darn time IMO) should be an interesting source of tension. Luke and Ben's story impressed me less. I admit I have never been a huge Luke fan and I think Ben's character should have had more growth. The Kessel story seemed like it was created just so Han, Leia, 3P0 and R2 could make an appearance in the book. I am holding out hope that it will turn out to be an excuse for them not to be around when things go pear shaped on Coruscant.
[ March 30, 2009, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Selran ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
From what I've read so far, no one has really gotten into why and when Jacen 'went bad' insofar as that can ever be determined...but the story certainly seemed to be taking its sweet time getting to that, and hadn't really at the point I've read to.
Does that ever change, Selran?
I felt the same way about the Kessel story. I was completely uninterested in it as soon as it was presented.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I'm not sure if Luke and Ben learned anything important about why and when Jacen went bad. I think we will see them learn a few seemingly unrelated pieces of the puzzle before something clicks and everything falls into place.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's not so much I'm interested in them learning it, heh. I'm more interested in us the reader learning it. Depending on which author gets the big reveals, that is.
I mean, if it's a Zahn, hell yeah I wanna read it. If it's an Anderson, though, I'll pull a Lyrhawn and KQ and pretend it never happens.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
We'll keep a seat open for you Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, the way it wrapped up turned me off pretty sharply to this book I'm sorry to say. I won't go into spoilers unless someone asks, but this book's resolution of the conflict between the government and the Jedi seemed very stupid to me, and the 'mystery' at the heart of the first place Luke and Ben visited was excessively stupid.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
Well, I don't think the conflict between the government and the Jedi is resolved. I expect the government to up the anti in the next novel. If that is the final resolution they, yeah it's pretty lame.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Even as a temporary resolution, it was pretty stupid.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I think it's safe to say that we've just seen the opening salvo of the jedi vs. government conflict. There's a tremendous amount of story potential there, and nothing was really resolved.
Similarly, Luke and Ben's journey is promising. I wonder if it's meant to be a means of incorporating some planet-of-the-week style adventure into a larger story arc. That could be kind of neat. Each novel they visit another stop on Jacen's path, encounter a crisis, save the day, and learn a bit more about what happened to him. By all acounts FotJ is supposed to be a bit less dark and not focused on a galactic scale war, unlike the NJO and LotF series. Could be a refreshing change. The Kessel subplot really was stupid though, but something worthwhile may come of Allana's mysterious encounter.
I found "Outcast" to be solid start to the series, while it could also almost work as a stand-alone story.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Each novel they visit another stop on Jacen's path, encounter a crisis, save the day, and learn a bit more about what happened to him.
Gah. I'd rather cut out my eyes with a rusty spoon.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The problem, neo-dragon, is that the first stop in the 'planet-of-the-week' (if that's what they do) taught us very little about Jacen, had a very stupid crisis, and the means for saving the day was dumb too.
--- --- ---
SPOILER
The chief 'villain' of this crisis turned out to be quite stupid and inept. He was more a caricature. On a scale of villains, zero being an ill-tempered Ewok and ten being the love-child of Thrawn and Palpatine, this guy rated like a two and a half.
Even when what he was saying was right, the heroes just sloughed it off like it was nothing. Here's the spoiler: he warned Luke and Ben that, if tensions aren't addressed and resolved, the conflict between the government and the Jedi would escalate, one example being tracking devices implanted in all Jedi.
The heroes disregarded that as crazy paranoia. I remember reading and thinking, "No it's not, you idiot."
And of course later it was shown that it wasn't. One of the cops in the story, upset at constant Jedi shenanigans, mentions that the next step will be implanted tracking devices. But from the story's perspective, the chief bad guy for Luke and Ben remains a paranoid recluse.
SPOILER Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
SPOILERS
IIRC, in the end, Luke did acknowledge that the crazy nutcase might not be entirely wrong about what was going on with the jedi and the government. I know that he was sort of inept, but I kind of enjoyed seeing Luke and Ben deal with something... I don't know... simple? It was more about seeing how they interacted and how Ben has matured rather than seeing them have to struggle against a powerful adversary.
END SPOILERS Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
To me, neo-dragon, that acknowledgment was more like a brush-off.
"Eh, things might get rough, but that guy's nuts."
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: My situation was the reverse of that, Kwea:) I like Stover, and the only stuff of his I've read has been (some of) his SW books.
You should try some of his other stuff then. I'll probably check out his SW stuff now that I have made the connection...
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
Omen hits stores Tuesday (6/23/09). I'm curious where they will take this series.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Minor, Non-specific "Omen" Spoilers follow:
Anyone else get around to reading "Omen" yet? I found it to be rather lackluster. If ever there was a book that should have been a paperback it's this one. At only 236 pages, and barely any development in the overall plot I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to shell out the price of a hardcover. I'm also getting the feeling that the authors are struggling to find reasons to use Han, Leia, and Allana. Seriously, their role in "Omen" amounts to running into trouble during a family trip to the zoo. Luke and Ben's journey continues to have a "planet-of-the-week" feel, which I don't actually mind. This time they study flow-walking with the Aing-Tii Monks while trying to help them solve a religious dilemma. However, towards the end a seemingly unrelated subplot about a lost tribe of Sith promises to intercept with the Skywalkers' journey probably as soon as the next novel. Speaking of which, I kind of wish there would stop being so many sith and jedi survivors from times when they were supposed to be whipped out. The sith were supposed to have died with Palpatine, but wait... then there's Lumiya... and the "One Sith" hiding on Korriban... and now a whole colony that's been out of touch with the galaxy for 5000 years. It's a good thing the chosen one came along to destroy the Sith forever. Ah well. They have yet to come up with better adversaries for the jedi.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I did too, and my reaction was the same, lackluster.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I just finished Abyss. I enjoyed it a lot more than the other two. I won't go into details yet to keep spoilers out for now, but if nothing else this book has a good lightsaber battle.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm about 80 pages into it. I hope I can find the time to finish it within the next week or so. Denning's books are usually good, although I sometimes find his action sequences hard to follow. Maybe it's just me. Oh, and he tends to refer back to his own books too often. In 80 pages there's already been at least a dozen references to the Killik crisis. And in his other recent books every other paragraph mentions the Myrkr mission.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I didn't realize he was the one who wrote those. But now that you mention it, yeah he does that a lot.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I read it recently as well, and did enjoy it more than the previous installment.
Boy, Jacen Solo sure gets a crappier deal than, say, Anakin Skywalker who after a lifetime of almost constant atrocity and evil gets his blue shiny ghost on with Yoda and Obi-Wan. However, that's more a complaint of Anakin getting off way too light as opposed to Jacen getting off too harsh.
Those afterlife encounters were fun, for all they were so short-but I guess that's necessary from a storytelling standpoint.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Abyss was okay. Certainly better than Omen, but maybe not as entertaining for me as Outcast.
So far the Fate of the Jedi series isn't knocking my socks off. I think I'm starting to grow tired of these lengthy series. It takes too long for the story to progress. The Legacy of the Force could have been a really amazing trilogy. Look at the story that Zahn was able to tell in 3 books. The NJO could have been a stellar 7 or 8 books rather than 19. My biggest problem with Abyss is the problem that I've had with a number of books since the NJO. It's over 300 pages of text and I could sum up the important plot developments in just a few sentences. And dear goodness, why do Mandalorians have to be brought into the story again? I had enough of the Mandos in the last series.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The next one of these comes out in April. I plan to start buying them when they hit paperback, which should hopefully be in the next month or two.
I've read such mixed reviews I'm not sure what I'll find. Part of me wishes we could have something of a carefree return to the X-Wing series, where we focus on a small band of heroes, and the focus is a lot more on character interaction than on halfway believable plot elements. But I'm interested to see where Jacen was during his five year absence, so I'll suffer along with these books for awhile. I do like Aaron Allston however, so I'm hoping some of them are surprisingly good.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
That's the hook that got me, Lyrhawn-that and his kid. But mixed in with it is a bunch of other stuff I find it difficult to care about, which is frustrating because I can tell that if, say, a Zahn were writing it, I'd be neck-deep in interest. Or maybe an Allston for that matter, if they let that one author have a continuous go at it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's the problem with having such a large arc with so many authors. Each author has their own pet side story, which is why the Fett/Mandalorian storyline only got attention when what's her name had a turn at the helm.
Part of me thinks that, they can have a larger arc if they want it, but they should go back to assigning individual authors a trilogy of novels at a time for the sake of more continuity, and perhaps luring some of the best authors back to Star Wars, like Zahn, Stackpole, and more Allston, to name a few. I thought Walter Jon Williams was one of the best NJO authors outside of Stackpole and Allston. I loved Destiny's Way.
Every author has their own pet side story, characters, etc. that they like personally, and that they focus on. The effect can from time to time be very interesting if the author in question is particularly good, but on the whole it's jarring and distracting.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Fate of the Jedi book 4: Backlash is out. I have it, but haven't actually started reading it just yet. But since this is the thread for general Star Wars Expanded Universe discussion I thought I'd give a little shout-out to this.
Most of us EU fans have fond memories of Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy. What you may or may not know is that during the 90s each of the books was adapted into a six issue comic series. This recently published "Thrawn Trilogy" is a collection of all three comic series in a single very nice looking and convenient hardcover volume. I recently acquired a copy and am very glad that I did. It's an awesome way to revisit the cornerstone of modern EU.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
They should've just given it all to Zahn, letting him write new stories at his own friggin' pace. Him and a few others. Had to keep that money machine chugging though, I s'pose.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't know about that. Zahn is good, arguably the best, but his books still have their flaws, and the multitude of authors brings variety to the table. Multiple authors within one series has its problems though.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: I don't know about that. Zahn is good, arguably the best, but his books still have their flaws, and the multitude of authors brings variety to the table. Multiple authors within one series has its problems though.
His work with Stackpole always seemed to go well. The X-Wing books definitely added their own particular flavor to the series, and they actually took note of each others work and even though they did their own thing, they actually did a great job tying it all together.
If they could have gotten one or two other authors who could have that sort of working relationship with one another, and then let them loose, I think things would have turned out better.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Spent the last few hours reading Outcast and Omen. I have to say, I really liked Outcast. Omen felt like 200 and some odd pages of setting up the NEXT story, which I think could be good.
I don't mind the planet-of-the-week format for Luke and Ben. I think we knew that retracing Jacen's steps was always going to involve this kind of planet hopping adventure, and I'm curious as to what happened with Jacen, so I think it's interesting.
I sort of agree that the Han/Leia/Allana storyline is more forced, especially in Omen, but in Outcast they served at least one useful purpose - to use Allana to foreshadow the bad guys in the Maw. I thought she was referring to the moon above Kessel at first, but now it's obviously the Maw, where something bad is going down and is likely related to the illness that the Jedi from Sanctuary are suffering.
I guess what bugs me a little is that it's all pretty easy to guess. Daala is going to use the illness that the Jedi youth are suffering as an excuse to push them further and further from power, and then about five books in, the Sith are going to explode onto the scene and the Jedi will be needed but hampered. All the while, Luke will figure out what happened to Jacen and the whole thing will end with him being reinstalled as Grand Master, but with some necessary reforms that bring the Jedi more closely in line with the rule of law.
Despite that, I still like this series more than the last one. Though, what they are doing to the Horn family (Jysella too!?) is utterly unforgivable! My hope is that they'll at least make the journey interesting, even if the destination seems very easy to figure out. They went a little heavy on the foreshadowing in the first book.
I also agree with what others have said about allowing a single author to do more. All series and trilogies in the beginning were from a single author. It wasn't until NJO that they started rotating like this, but even then they did a lot of duologies. I think FotJ would have been a lot better off if Allston had penned the first three to get things going. I think it would have been even better off if it was a 9 novel series, with Stackpole, Allston and Zahn each getting a trilogy.
The biggest problem is that all these authors have their own agendas. None of them want to write what essentially feels like fanfic, so they all either spend too much time creating their own characters, who are often throwaways ignored by other authors, or they focus almost exclusively on characters they've previously created, which is why you never see the names Kell Tainer or Tyria Sarkin unless Allston is writing it. Or perhaps the most notably glaring example from the LotF series was when what's her name couldn't stop talking about the Mandalorians despite the fact that keeping them relevantly involved in the ongoing plot took a herculean effort that was a failure because none of the other authors kept it up, and it was ridiculously out of place.
Anyway, I plan to continue reading FotJ as they come out on paperback, and hopefully things will be good.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I guess what bugs me a little is that it's all pretty easy to guess. Daala is going to use the illness that the Jedi youth are suffering as an excuse to push them further and further from power, and then about five books in, the Sith are going to explode onto the scene and the Jedi will be needed but hampered. All the while, Luke will figure out what happened to Jacen and the whole thing will end with him being reinstalled as Grand Master, but with some necessary reforms that bring the Jedi more closely in line with the rule of law.
I dunno. If they're trying to set up the Legacy comic book series, evil needs to win pretty resoundingly in this one.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm glad someone bumped this thread. I'm almost finished book 5: Allies. I guess I can't really discuss much though since I don't think anyone else here is that far yet. Anyway...
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I guess what bugs me a little is that it's all pretty easy to guess. Daala is going to use the illness that the Jedi youth are suffering as an excuse to push them further and further from power, and then about five books in, the Sith are going to explode onto the scene and the Jedi will be needed but hampered. All the while, Luke will figure out what happened to Jacen and the whole thing will end with him being reinstalled as Grand Master, but with some necessary reforms that bring the Jedi more closely in line with the rule of law.
I dunno. If they're trying to set up the Legacy comic book series, evil needs to win pretty resoundingly in this one.
I'm not sure what you mean by evil needing to win. Legacy takes place something like 90 years later, and when it begins (or just prior to it's start, actually), the jedi are as strong as ever. The galactic alliance is still in power, but doesn't seem to control or restrict the jedi any more than previous governments did. Perhaps even less so since the Jedi appear to be based primarily on Ossus rather than Coruscant. The bad guys in Legacy (a group of sith unrelated to the Lost Tribe in FotJ and part of the Empire) pretty much come out of nowhere just a few years before the start of the series. So evil winning actually doesn't make much sense given that the good guys are still running things more than 80 years later.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How good is the Legacy comic book series? It sounds interesting. I've never been a huge fan of graphic novels though.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
I just added Allies to my Audible cart. I'll get it as soon as I get my credits.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: How good is the Legacy comic book series? It sounds interesting. I've never been a huge fan of graphic novels though.
It's hard to say if Legacy would be your cup of tea or not. I enjoy graphic novels but usually prefer regular novels a whole lot more due to their greater depth.
I started off just downloading issues of Legacy because I was intrigued by the premise, but then went back and started purchasing it from the start when the sci-fi book club started offering 3-volume box sets. It only goes to show all those people who complain about internet piracy that it actually helps promote work and gets people to end up buying something which they may not have thought was worth it otherwise.
Anyway, my point is that I would suggest maybe reading the first volume (download, library, read it in the store) and decide for yourself if it's worthwhile. It was recently announced that the 50th issue which I believe comes out in July will be the last. So if you read or collect the series in graphic novel (trade paperback) format it should be about 10 volumes when all is said in done.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Anyone keeping up with these? I think I'm a couple behind, but I'm considering jumping back into it.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: I don't know about that. Zahn is good, arguably the best, but his books still have their flaws, and the multitude of authors brings variety to the table. Multiple authors within one series has its problems though.
What SHOULD have happened is instead of making the books sequential, the different authors could focus on a narrower range of characters and develop their individual stories within the context of the broader conflict; e.g. Traviss could play with Boba Fett, Denning could focus on Han and Leia or something, and Alston could focus on Ben and Luke. If they could have got him on board, Matthew Stover could have told the story from Jacen's point of view, and have that serve as the backbone of the galactic conflict that the others develop into more individualized stories.
What actually happened was that each book had to continue what the previous book did, and developed every character who was given a role in the story thus far. Things just got more and more complicated, and the books lost focus. They had to weave everything all the authors had together in ostensibly one story, so each book was basically "this is what happened to everyone at this stage in this new galactic war" instead of "this is the story of Characters X and Y set in this stage of this new galactic war." It became about the war, not the characters. These books could have been great if they told more personal stories; it would have been less convoluted.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Anyone keeping up with these? I think I'm a couple behind, but I'm considering jumping back into it.
I've been keeping up. I'm not quite sure where I stand with this series as a whole. It seems sort of pointless and the most recent volume in particular was bogged down with politics.
I've been getting a more enjoyable Star Wars experience by reading the Darth Bane novels.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's Old Republic stuff right? I never really enjoyed that.
On the other hand, Luke Skywalker's Planet of the Week wacky family travels aren't really doing it for me either. I was hoping it got better so I could jump back into it.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: That's Old Republic stuff right? I never really enjoyed that.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
(No, I never finished it. I lost interest when it sucked worse with every book so much that even Allston couldn't completely pull it back out.)
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. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Rakeesh
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)