Sadly, this happened at my alma mater, and Jaclyn's old sorority [she had quit after just 1 semester] NYT article Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
And I haven't heard about this at all on our news, weird.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
How did they imagine that DePauw wouldn't get pissed about this? That sort of action is what gets chapter charters revoked.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Ouch. They need to learn some manners.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:“They had these unassuming freshman girls downstairs with these plastic women from Indiana University, and 25 of my sisters hiding upstairs,” she said. “It was so fake, so completely dehumanized. I said, ‘This calls for a little joke.’ ”
Ms. Holloway put on a wig and some John Lennon rose-colored glasses, burst through the front door and skipped around singing, “Ooooh! Delta Zeta!” and other chants.
The face of one of the national representatives, she recalled, “was like I’d run over her puppy with my car.”
--j_k
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Who is really surprised to learn that much of the college Greek system is based on popularity and social standing?
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
A girl I was in high school with was one of the members asked to leave. We kind of... rivaled each other for a few years in band, playing flute. It's an intriguing story, to say the least... exactly how obsessed with looks has our society gotten? And does a private organization like that have the right to revoke membership priveliges based on looks?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Not surprised. Saddened and disgusted. The irony in your posts is that it seems that here was an exception to that rule, and it was crushed by the national sorority.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I like to wear my Tau Beta Pi shirt and make people wonder how a girl like me got into a sorority.
(TBP is an engineering honor society).
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Who is really surprised to learn that much of the college Greek system is based on popularity and social standing?
i think this an over-generalization... while what the chapter did was despicable, this does not reflect the rest of the greek community.
This like calling all republicans hypocritical, male-chauvinist, intolerant jerks just because rush limbaugh is one.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:exactly how obsessed with looks has our society gotten?
I don't think it's fair to society to judge it by the behavior of fraternities and sororities.
quote:And does a private organization like that have the right to revoke membership priveliges based on looks?
They might, but the university also has the right to revoke the ridiculous privileges it gets as a sorority.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:i think this an over-generalization... while what the chapter did was despicable, this does not reflect the rest of the greek community.
It represents my experience with greeks in college.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: It represents my experience with greeks in college.
Even so... my experience with Indians in the bay area is that they are software engineers, but it would be silly to say all Indians are software engineers wouldnt it?
Were you greek in school?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
No, I was not.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: No, I was not.
I don't know how it is other greek systems, but at DePauw, where 70% of the student population is greek, in spite of all the stereotypes etc, people are still treated well in general.
This is why there is such an outrage about this incident... everyone agrees that this was a very poor way to handle the situation.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My experience with fraternities, in a homogeneous college, was that it was more about what sport you were involved in. Everyone(except me and about three others) was beautiful, wealthy, intelligent, and athletic. So, it came down to football-hockey-lacrosse players(DU), soccer players-skiiers(Sig-Ep), a mix of semi-sweet bums(KDR), and the more intellectual(ChiPSi). We had no sororities. DU was banned for hanging the effigy of a woman(though they could have been banned for various other frighteningly misogynist behavior.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: My experience with fraternities, in a homogeneous college, was that it was more about what sport you were involved in. Everyone(except me and about three others) was beautiful, wealthy, intelligent, and athletic. So, it came down to football-hockey-lacrosse players(DU), soccer players-skiiers(Sig-Ep), a mix of semi-sweet bums(KDR), and the more intellectual(ChiPSi). We had no sororities. DU was banned for hanging the effigy of a woman(though they could have been banned for various other frighteningly misogynist behavior.
DU as in Delta Upsilon?
Man, that just goes to show you how different the chapters are. Every DU chapter I've heard of is filled with the semi-social nerds, geeks and dorks, and they're proud of it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
ero, This was a couple or so of years ago... And like I said, they were booted, so maybe the dorks took over. A revolt of sorts.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
That's possible, but my own experience with DU chapters is four to five years old, and seemed well established then. DU has always prided themselves (on a national level, at least) on not being the stereotypical party animal fraternity, highlighting their intellectual standards for brothers, as well as their policies against hazing, secret rituals, oaths, handshakes, etc.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Dag yo.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
So I'm not at all surprised that this happened. I'm more surprised that it is getting the attention it is. Things of this flavor were quite common among the Greek system when I was in college.
Edit to add that I'm referring to social fraternities and sororities. Honors societies are a completely different animal. Go STD! Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
DU at my school was almost all football players. Sig Ep was much more geeky. The soccer players were all Theta Zi. We had 28 fraternities at my school, and 8 sororities, at a school with a student body of 4,500, so greek life was obviously a really big part of the school. Over 50% of the school was greek(and this is a university primarily known as a major engineering school - Lehigh University). I say all this just to show that greek life isn't the same everywhere. At my school, every college cliche had his or her own fraternity or sorority to call their own. There was no group of people excluded from greek life, and most who weren't a part of it, chose not to be for their own reasons.
Of course there were still cliques, certain fraternities only hung out with certain sororities. Certain houses were friends with other houses, but despised another group of houses.
I think the behavior exhibited at this school by this sorority isn't an example of the dispicable behavior of this national organization(though it is), but really a general example of a base behavior among groups of young people, that is empowered by a system that allows these behaviors to flourish. College campuses might as well be Lord of the Flies type secluded islands.
It is deplorable that the national sorority was responsible for all this. Though from what I know about what sorority girls go through, they are infinitely more mentally abusive to eachother than anything I've ever heard of a fraternity pledge/brother going through. Not ALL sororities, but the really competitive/exclusive ones are vicious.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
I quite agree.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
I think it's telling that the national office is to blame. While there's undoubtedly still structural racism, drug abuse, objectification, etc. in today's Greek culture, I find that the average chapter goes out of its way to shed stereotypes. Most college students don't want to be associated with bigotry (especially bigotry they can blame on old fogeys ), and obviously even fewer administrators would stand for it. They're far too busy getting drunk and laid.
Meanwhile, think about what kind of people run a national sorority. You have to be more than a little nostalgic for the "good old days", which included far more brazen bigotry than you could get away with today. I also imagine the top ranks of a national fraternal organization are (a) a full-time job (b) not well paid. If so, it's not just about relishing the old memories, it probably includes vicariously living out desires that they never actually achieved in their youth and subsequent careers. I'm sure my armchair psychology doesn't apply to all or even most organizations, but those Delta Zeta folks sure reek of that attitude when they micromanage local recruitment. Their behavior is marginalizing, offensive, and all the other things people have said. But most of all, it's pathetic. Grow up, you sad little girls.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Richard Berg! Nice to see you around. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"but really a general example of a base behavior among groups of young people, that is empowered by a system that allows these behaviors to flourish."
I would say this is an example of base behavior, period, and not pin it on young people.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: My experiences with individual members of the Greek system ranged from awesome, fun, smart people to complete jerks. From a standpoint of people within the Greeks, I would say they represented something of a cross-section of the campus community, although certainly some groups were excluded and some were highly over-represented.
My experience with the way the Greek system itself in my college worked, on the whole, is that it fostered a social atmosphere of exclusivity, elitism, drug and alcohol abuse, and something of a carte blanche attitude.
I quite agree.
Me, too, with the addition to that last sentence of fostering eating disorders (in many social sororities) -- from my perspectives as both a university student and having trained through a college student health center.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't even know if we had sororities at my alma mater, though I imagine my Faculty of Engineering probably acted in a manner similar to one.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
My school was only about 30% greek, but I think stuff like this was really common. My mother said they excluded one girl who was really smart, funny, and nice, because she wore green socks. Or maybe it was because she wore white socks. Whichever, it was the opposite of what was cool at the time. Another girl had a neck that looked dirty, and they all liked her but her dirty looking neck meant she "wasn't KD material".
Maybe national didn't think the girls were being snobby and exclusive enough, so they decided to undo the damage in one swoop. When I was at Auburn, the DZs had the reputation of being the sorority that would take anyone, i.e. the rejects of the other sororities. Obviously, that shows how icky greeks often are in the way they think of people. =)
While I was there, I came to know and love several sisters of various sororities, but I never thought that the greek system was very edifying. It seemed to foster low impulses, rather than inspire people to higher ones. I also think strict gender segregation is unfelicitous. Certainly the strict racial segregation that existed then (I hope no longer) was an unhappy thing. I'm really glad I decided to be independent.
Our group of friends was composed of a more diverse cross section of students, grad students, and professors than a typical greek club. We had males and females in roughly equal numbers. Membership was fluid and amorphous, and varied constantly according to people's preferences. I just think that was a healthier atmosphere, and I'm glad for it.
[ February 25, 2007, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My college was already so exclusive and homogeneous it was almost a joke to have frats.
There was also Zeke House. (Zeta psi?)
That was the rugby house. Yikers.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm not sure if I am a big fan of the Greek system. It seems to be a breeding ground for the sort of attitudes I dislike. I remember at my own college the frat boys as a group were annoying to me, the sorority girls were perplexing. Individually, they were not so bad, but lumped together in a culture of exclustivity, (sp) heavy drinking, partying even on the weekdays and khakis with pastel colours they were scary.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I really am bothered that this wasn't in today's Indianapolis Star.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I really am bothered that this wasn't in today's Indianapolis Star.
this actually happened in december... it was covered in the campus paper in late jan [when word got out]. i dont know how NYT got the story
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Weird.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I'd like to point out that a lot of people are referencing behaviors of frats and sororities that indicate their requirements for admission are exclusive, e.g. Tatiana's post:
quote:My school was only about 30% greek, but I think stuff like this was really common. My mother said they excluded one girl who was really smart, funny, and nice, because she wore green socks. Or maybe it was because she wore white socks. Whichever, it was the opposite of what was cool at the time. Another girl had a neck that looked dirty, and they all liked her but her dirty looking neck meant she "wasn't KD material".
Maybe national didn't think the girls were being snobby and exclusive enough, so they decided to undo the damage in one swoop. When I was at Auburn, the DZs had the reputation of being the sorority that would take anyone, i.e. the rejects of the other sororities. Obviously, that shows how icky greeks often are in the way they think of people. =)
I'd like to point out that being discriminating in who you offer bids to and who you ultimately allow to cross is completely different than what the sorority in the article did: allowed 23 girls to become members of their society, some for years, even allowing them to take positions of power (one girl was chapter president), then abruptly decided to change the rules, taking membership away.
It's the difference between looking at potential adoption parents and saying "no, sorry, you don't meet our requirements" and approving parents for adoption but then, three years later, saying "no, wait, we're changing the rules, you can't have this child anymore. But we're sorry, and here's $300 to compensate."
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I'm ambivalent towards the Greek system. At best, it's a way of making little communities that strengthen and help the individual cope with bigger issues. At worst, it's a scheme cooked up by men to deliver booze and sexually available women. Sometimes the two goals are combined, helping the individual cope by providing booze and sexually available women.
As much as I like women, I'm not big into booze, and I was always suspicious about the lines on which brotherhood were drawn. I can't place it exactly, but I'm uncomfortable the Greek system, as if the kids were drawing pride from someplace they shouldn't be proud of.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
I have known sorority alumnae whom I respect, but I have never respected the system.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
In the older days of fraternities, the brotherhood(or sisterhood) helped after college probably more than during college, providing a network of business contacts.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
My personal experience was this: my friends from freshmen year joined fraternities and got new friends. They didn't have time to hang out with me because they had to be doing something with their "bros". My "best" friend is the president of his fraternity now, and we never hang out because he's always doing fraternity functions--and I'm not invited.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
My university has sorities and fraternities but they are hardly on anyone's radar. I like it that way.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Sororities and fraternities are weird - and stories like this just make them sound even weirder. I'm glad they don't exist here.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
To be clear, I'm not saying today's local Greek chapters are made up of saints.
Just that they'd never do something as foolish as expell existing members.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote: I also imagine the top ranks of a national fraternal organization are (a) a full-time job (b) not well paid.
Not so. Many of the top jobs in the national organization are not full time. And the ones that are, are pretty well paid. What actually turned me very strongly away from the fraternity(on a national level) was my experience with becoming involved with the fraternity on a national level. To sum up, the fraternity wanted the national organization run like a business. They compared the organization to a business every chance they got and were making major efforts to restructure at the chapter level with those new goals in mind(a successful business). Many others who got involved were also soured to the national organization as well.
Launchywiggin, sorry you've had such a bad experience with your friend and the greek system in general. At my school non-fraternity members as well as brothers from other fraternities were all welcome at most events. I'd say people who didn't pledge fraternities got the better deal at my school, they got to party for free all four years of college without any of the responsibility/commitment of actually being in a fraternity. Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I would mostly echo MightyCow and Irami.
But I understand what LaunchyWiggin said, too. A significant number of my friends joined a fraternity and I suddenly found myself unable to socialize as much with them. Now we're out of college, and all enjoying the lack of socialization that having a full time job entails. Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
something that a lot of people forget [in the haze of frat parties etc] is the enormous amount of community service work fraternities and sororities do nation-wide.
in our college alone, hundreds of thousands of dollars are raised by the greek system every year in aid of cancer & AIDS research. my fraternity offered merit scholarships to local high school students, and offered volunteers to the local senior center, the homeless shelter and events organized by other houses.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: something that a lot of people forget [in the haze of frat parties etc] is the enormous amount of community service work fraternities and sororities do nation-wide.
in our college alone, hundreds of thousands of dollars are raised by the greek system every year in aid of cancer & AIDS research. my fraternity offered merit scholarships to local high school students, and offered volunteers to the local senior center, the homeless shelter and events organized by other houses.
For every greek organization I've encountered that does excellent charity work, I've encountered one that does enough to not have their charter revoked, or uses charity as a means of benefiting themselves.
For example, I know of two (different) frat chapters who did an epic amount of fundraising - and donated all of it to their local police department, ensuring that the ridiculously loud, drug-permeated, minor-filled parties at their off-campus housing went undisturbed.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
I've never understood the Greek thing. My only experience of similar societies was the local Bruderschaft (Brotherhood) at the Uni I went to in Germany for a year. They wore sashes and little hats, sported moustaches and were regarded as highly dodgey by 99% of the student body.
Sounds like these guys have shot themselves in the foot though. I wonder how it will effect theit future at that particular college?
In my UK University, the "campus" was loosely divided by the various Student Union societies. I was in the Mountianeering Society so I had ready access to the climbing wall and weekends away in the mountains. It never got me a job though, nor yet a network of business contacts. I do have some wonderful friends though!
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Remember these girls were expelled from the house, not the sorority. They were changed from a "student" status which allowed them to live in the house, to an "alumna" status. They were still members, but alumna are not allowed to live in the houses. That's acutally worse, in my opinion, because the whole purpose was then to get them out of the house because they didn't fit the correct physical type. It's like saying, "We do think that you play a role in or sorority, but we don't want people like you living in our houses."
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: For example, I know of two (different) frat chapters who did an epic amount of fundraising - and donated all of it to their local police department, ensuring that the ridiculously loud, drug-permeated, minor-filled parties at their off-campus housing went undisturbed.
IMO, the problem here is the police department, which is essentially taking bribes from the chapters.
Personally, I think underage drinking is perfectly fine. It happens in almost every highschool and college, and in most homes across the US. Most universities have their own police force, and they take care of "on-campus issues" for the most part.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:and in most homes across the US.
I am not so sure about this one.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:and in most homes across the US.
I am not so sure about this one.
That's because you don't live in WI.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:For every greek organization I've encountered that does excellent charity work, I've encountered one that does enough to not have their charter revoked, or uses charity as a means of benefiting themselves.
The ones I've worked with do the charity work in the way of a beard, as in, if you raise money for a homeless shelter for two weeks, it leaves you free to carouse for the other fifty.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:and in most homes across the US.
I am not so sure about this one.
That's because you don't live in WI.
Then shouldn't it be "in most homes across WI?"
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No. More accurately, underage drinking occurs in most homes across the country.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But does it occur in the homes, or do they just have underage drinkers? This is what I am not sure about. I've never lived anywhere where underage drinking was tolerated, ignored, or unnoticed IN THE HOME by most parents.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Don't you live in CA? Most of the kids I've met who grew up in Napa and consumed wine with most meals.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
quote:For every greek organization I've encountered that does excellent charity work, I've encountered one that does enough to not have their charter revoked, or uses charity as a means of benefiting themselves.
The ones I've worked with do the charity work in the way of a beard, as in, if you raise money for a homeless shelter for two weeks, it leaves you free to carouse for the other fifty.
That's basically what I meant by "I've encountered one that does enough to not have their charter revoked," as philanthropy is a mandated prerequisite for most greek organizations on most college campuses.
quote:IMO, the problem here is the police department, which is essentially taking bribes from the chapters.
While some fault certainly lies with the police for being corruptible, it's silly to suggest that the organizations doing the bribing are not primarily to blame.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: Don't you live in CA? Most of the kids I've met who grew up in Napa and consumed wine with most meals.
I live in CA. Not in wine country, though.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I drank (though never to excess), with my parents' permission, long before I was of age. I think I started being allowed wine with special meals at 15 or 16, though I don't really remember the exact age.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Note that the contention wasn't whether it happens; it was whether it happens in over 50% of all homes across the U.S..
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Exactly. I know that there were kids in my high school who drank at home with their parents' permission to one degree or another-- probably about 5% or less. There was another 5% to 10% that drank in their homes without their parents' knowledge or consent. But that is not nearly most kids in my high school. MOST kids in my high school either did not drink or did it outside of their homes if they did.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Hrm. I must be odd, then; all my friends at that age were allowed (admittedly small) amounts of alcohol by their parents.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
It's one of those things that's going to be unmeasurable by anecdote; the diversity of experience is too great.
Personally, most (guessing 3/5 or greater) of the kids I knew in high school had been allowed to at least try alcohol under parental supervision in their homes, and a pretty large number drank alcohol at least once without parental permission in their own homes.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That survey doesn't offer the statistic we're looking for (that I saw): how many underage people drink in their homes.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That is interesting information, but I didn't see anything about how much of that was going on in their own homes, with or without parental consent.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
True. Pardon.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
NHANES is the only national survey including adolescents that I know of which asks such detailed questions (the Youth Risk Behavior Survey, Monitoring the Future study, and others tend to be less detailed). However, NHANES requires some digging. I'll see what I can find.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I remember having wine with a meal when I was six or seven. I thought my grape juice had gone bad, but for some reason I wasn't allowed to mention it or pull a face. That was the only time, and I think it was a very special occassion, and a wine from my grandparents' wee vinyard.
If I had been asked to guess, I think I would have gone more with kq's estimates, though I'm sure experience, in this case, doesn't mean a lot.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
As far as stats go, one of the SHS folks here at school told us that if you took three average college students, one usually drinks on weekends, one usually drinks a few times a month, one doesn't drink at all, and each assumes that s/he is in the majority. I wish I knew his source. I would assume that drinking habits in college tend to mirror drinking habits picked up in high school, though I can't honestly say I knew enough about any of my classmates to know how much they did (or didn't) drink at home. I'd also assume that those that did drink outside their own homes did it at somebody's house, usually at a party (versus at, say, a bar).
(On an unrelated note, the picture in Storm's link looked familiar. That exact same photo was used on top of a some handout they gave us back in eighth grade. That was years ago, so I'm not sure why I remember that so clearly.)
--j_k
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: I'd also assume that those that did drink outside their own homes did it at somebody's house, usually at a party (versus at, say, a bar).
A reasonable assumption. But that still means that drinking is not happening IN a majority of homes (unless someone finds statistics that say otherwise.)
This was quite a topic of conversation when I was in HS, both among students and among parents. Most parents who allowed their children to drink in their own home did not allow their children to drink elsewhere (except occasionally at restaurants or others' homes at dinner when the parents were present, etc.) and, for the most part, did not allow their childrens' friends to drink at their house unless their own parents were present (and rightly so.)
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: But that still means that drinking is not happening IN a majority of homes (unless someone finds statistics that say otherwise.)
Why? It can just as well mean that drinking IS happening IN a majority of homes (unless someone finds statistics that say otherwise).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
So we see a substantive difference between saying that a majority of minors drink illegally and saying that a majority of houses have had underage minors drinking within them?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, I am 43. When I was in high school, many of us drank, and I mean drank, not just sipped on a parent-approved glass of wine, in the home.
This was when the drinking age was, in many places, 18 or 19.
We had parties at houses.
The idea of not driving after drinking was not really in fashion.
I truly believe that the younger generation is generally more aware of the law and the dangers of driving under the influence of alcohol. When I was a senior in college(1985), I came home to Phoeninx, which had just established pretty severe dui(dwi) laws. They were one of the first states to do so. Now, it is commonplace.
(Why Arizona still has drive-thru liquor stores is a bit beyond me, though.)
This is my experience, of course, but I just things are different since the laws went into effect.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: My university has sorities and fraternities but they are hardly on anyone's radar. I like it that way.
Amen, Teshi. I was surprised to see flyers posted on poles in September.
I was exasperated and highly amused to later see flyers posted for a "women's fraternity." Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: So we see a substantive difference between saying that a majority of minors drink illegally and saying that a majority of houses have had underage minors drinking within them?
Absolutely. It is perfectly legal for a parent or guardian of a minor to serve them alcohol inside their own home.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit:
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: My university has sorities and fraternities but they are hardly on anyone's radar. I like it that way.
Amen, Teshi. I was surprised to see flyers posted on poles in September.
I was exasperated and highly amused to later see flyers posted for a "women's fraternity."
Honestly, "sorority" and "women's fraternity" conjure up two very different images in my mind. "Sorority" brings up the traditional one--monochromatic girls doing stereotypically feminine college activities--while "women's fraternity" brings up an image of rowdy party girls who drink beer like the boys and can kick your ass at beirut.
I may be alone on this, though. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I was exasperated and highly amused to later see flyers posted for a "women's fraternity."
I saw these too! I wasn't sure if they were deliberate or ignorant.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Absolutely. It is perfectly legal for a parent or guardian of a minor to serve them alcohol inside their own home.
Only in 31 states. In 20 of those, the parents can serve their children alcohol anywhere it is legal for alcohol to be drunk by an adult. The Virginia "drink at home bill" was passed last year. It tightened up the law.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:While some fault certainly lies with the police for being corruptible, it's silly to suggest that the organizations doing the bribing are not primarily to blame.
Morally? Maybe. But who cares? That's between the frat members and their deities.
Meanwhile, we should be very concerned about police who abuse the public trust. Our society gives them enormous privileges: they can carry guns, pull us off public roadways, and barge into our homes. With that comes enormous responsibility. Anyone who accepts a bribe immediately forfeits their claim to those privileges, IMO.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
actually, a woman's fraternity is just a sorority.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
And yet this map seems to indicate that parents in Virginia cannot serve alcohol to their children.
I'm a little confused by the specific legalities. In Florida, my impression is that it is legal to serve alcohol to your children in your home. The map didn't indicate any restriction at all on parents serving alcohol to their own children, though. Also, liquor stores say you cannot buy alcohol for your children. I'm not clear on where the line is--you can't buy it for them, but you can share your own?
-o-
I found that article very slanted in that it didn't quote anybody who supported that bill, when clearly there was support for it. I would oppose a bill that made it illegal for parents to serve their children alcohol.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: . . . while "women's fraternity" brings up an image of rowdy party girls who drink beer like the boys and can kick your ass at beirut.
Where could one find these girls, hypothetically?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: . . . while "women's fraternity" brings up an image of rowdy party girls who drink beer like the boys and can kick your ass at beirut.
Where could one find these girls, hypothetically?
I dunno, but Seattle seems to have a lot of them!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:And yet this map seems to indicate that parents in Virginia cannot serve alcohol to their children.
quote:7. Any person who keeps and possesses lawfully acquired alcoholic beverages in his residence for his personal use or that of his family. However, such alcoholic beverages may be served or given to guests in such residence by such person, his family or servants when (i) such guests are 21 years of age or older or are accompanied by a parent, guardian, or spouse who is 21 years of age or older and (ii) such service or gift is in no way a shift or device to evade the provisions of this title.
Prior to that, there was no requirement that a parent be present.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
It's hard for me to tell from the map - are there any states where it's illegal to give children alcohol for religious purposes? Like communion?
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I'm with you, Teshi. I like my Greeks on the down-low.
The only Greek club I know about at Waterloo is the Classics Society, which I headed up one year. Our only prerequisite for entrance was the ability to physically fit into our closet-sized lounge at any given lunch hour, and a certain fondness for and/or pedantry about the correct parsing of ancient verbs (in the language of one's choice). We certainly never threw anyone out for dressing in the wrong fashion, although we did on several occasions tease people about wearing a himation and calling it a toga.
My only experience with real frat/sorority Greeks has been meeting some of them a few weeks ago at about 3:00am one night, in the midst of their 36-hour rocking chair marathon for cancer. They let me crash in their secret frat house for a couple hours when I would otherwise have been stranded outdoors in the rain all night. I must say, it was an overwhelmingly positive encounter, but their gift of a couch and a roof may have biased my opinion.
In all seriousness, though, every frat/sorority person I met that night (and there were a lot) was genuinely friendly to me, without any compelling reason to be. They weren't snobbish at all.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: . . . while "women's fraternity" brings up an image of rowdy party girls who drink beer like the boys and can kick your ass at beirut.
Where could one find these girls, hypothetically?
Your local rugby team. Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Just thought you guys might like an update: DePauw has severed all ties with Delta Zeta nationals (they're not in line with university values, apparently), and so, at the end of the semester the Delta chapter of Delta Zeta will cease to exist.
There's also movement by the involuntarily-alumned members of DZ to start a local sorority (no nationals) whose focus is on positive self-image. The sorority will have a much more laid-back approach to recruitment as well.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Apparently, an upcoming episode of Boston Legal is going to do this story.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Where could one find these girls, hypothetically?
Your local frisbee teams (or the Skidmore Wombats at the very least, but from what I've seen of other teams they're just as likely).
When people start talking about the Greek system I have nothing to offer, cause Skidmore doesn't have one. We're Greek free. Reading articles like this makes me very thankful for that fact.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Astaril: I'm with you, Teshi. I like my Greeks on the down-low.
The only Greek club I know about at Waterloo is the Classics Society, which I headed up one year. Our only prerequisite for entrance was the ability to physically fit into our closet-sized lounge at any given lunch hour, and a certain fondness for and/or pedantry about the correct parsing of ancient verbs (in the language of one's choice). We certainly never threw anyone out for dressing in the wrong fashion, although we did on several occasions tease people about wearing a himation and calling it a toga.
I remember one year the slogan for the frosh Toga Party was "Get you Greek on!" And then I remember some smartarse's countering poster about a Himation Party. Good times.
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That's possible, but my own experience with DU chapters is four to five years old, and seemed well established then. DU has always prided themselves (on a national level, at least) on not being the stereotypical party animal fraternity, highlighting their intellectual standards for brothers, as well as their policies against hazing, secret rituals, oaths, handshakes, etc.
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), and obviously even fewer administrators would stand for it. They're far too busy getting drunk and laid.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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