Well, I just finished watching Carnivale season 2 (no third season, grumble grumble) and the commentaries discussed often the juxtaposition of making Brother Justin the villian and Ben the hero. It seems to me that as far as conventions go, it's not so uncommon. In fact, when reading or watching a relatively new story, I'm almost surprised when the priest/preacher ISN'T the bad guy in the end.
I know the convention is as old as The Scarlet Letter and as recent as The Golden Compass series of books, but what other stories uses this?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Seventh Son? Or is he just misguided?
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
I don't think Thrower ever willingly played the part of the bad guy. He was definitely guided to a large degree by the Unmaker. I don't think that absolves him completely, though.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Hypocrisy is still an engaging theme, so it doesn't surprise me that it's common in literature, TV and movies. Also, the more piety you claim, the greater your potential for hypocrisy.
And religious leaders in our times have repeatedly shown their hypocrisy, so it's not like such themes are unfounded in fiction.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
While it's certainly common, I think it's also important to note that there are plenty of examples where the religious figures really are the relative paragons of virtue (or at least seem to be good examples in general)
see for example: 7th heaven and the brothers on Babylon 5, Shepard Book in firefly...
Part of the issue with this, though, is that either we don't notice it as much (because it's the expected norm) or it's just so sickly it makes you not want to watch (see 7th heaven).
I'm certainly not saying that all priests (or equivalents) are perfect, but enough are still moral pillars (or appear to be) that the expectation is for a priestly character to be good.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick: I don't think Thrower ever willingly played the part of the bad guy. He was definitely guided to a large degree by the Unmaker. I don't think that absolves him completely, though.
I think that's fairly common when a priest/preacher is a bad guy in fiction-- that he thinks he is acting for the good of humanity or on behalf of God, however misguided his belief.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:While it's certainly common, I think it's also important to note that there are plenty of examples where the religious figures really are the relative paragons of virtue (or at least seem to be good examples in general)
The kung-fu priest in Dead Alive springs immediately to mind!
Posted by Sacrip (Member # 10006) on :
And, of course, the preacher in season 7 of Buffy.
I guess what annoyed me enough to start this thread was how they (the writers of Carnivale) kept harping on how "inverted" it was to have Brother Justin as evil and Ben Hawkins, the escaped convict, as good. Almost like they thought of it first.
Oh, and the preacher in Sleepy Hollow, too.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
the priest in LadyHawk. Yeah, not a new idea whatsoever. And yet still compelling. (when done well, anyhow.)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think it's a trope that plays on our fears and desires. Leaders are invested with power, and we dread and fear that power having been invested in the wrong people. And we need and desire leaders to be good, so this underscores that fear and dread over and over again.
Conflict makes for good storytelling. This is one way to introduce conflict in an emotionally powerful way. (and so, of course, not an astonishing new trick)
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Just as examples, there have got to be at least five or more from The X-Files. That said, it was usually pretty well done, so meh.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I've seen more than a handful of hypocritical, self-serving, or power-hungry religious leaders in science fiction stories. The bajoran woman from DS9 comes to mind as one, but I know there have been quite a few that I cannot bring to mind right now.
"The Preacher" from season 7 of Buffy wasn't really a religious leader at all. He pretended to be a preacher, but he wasn't one.
I haven't seen B5 for quite a while (too long), and I could have sworn there were things about its treatment of religion that bothered me, but as I think back, everything I can think of is either positive (the brothers, G'Kar), neutral (the fact that none of the religious precepts such as souls were proven nor disproven) or ambiguous (such as the morality of the soul-hunters verses the Minbari).
There are lots of stories which follow the Three Musketeers formula of having the bad guy be someone high-up in the Catholic church.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
The Mission: Catholics are the good guys, the victims, the bad guys, and the leaders who unwittingly allow the bad guys to be bad. Great movie btw.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick: I don't think Thrower ever willingly played the part of the bad guy. He was definitely guided to a large degree by the Unmaker. I don't think that absolves him completely, though.
I think that's fairly common when a priest/preacher is a bad guy in fiction-- that he thinks he is acting for the good of humanity or on behalf of God, however misguided his belief.
I don't think anyone willingly plays the part of the bad guy. We do things because we think they're the right thing to do.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:While it's certainly common, I think it's also important to note that there are plenty of examples where the religious figures really are the relative paragons of virtue (or at least seem to be good examples in general)
The kung-fu priest in Dead Alive springs immediately to mind!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Great movie btw.