What's the logical fallacy where someone keeps accusing you of using a logical fallacy where none exists?
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
What the hell! Four new topics? I feel like a jerk.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
You can delete the extra threads FYI.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
And I'd appreciate it if you did.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
In case you are not sure how, click the edit post icon (next to the quotation marks), and in the top left of your post you will see a check box that says, "Delete Post? Check box if yes."
Errant post should then disappear.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Ok, thanks. I tried "Delete thread", and it said I had to be administrator.
Whatever makes you happy, Lyrhawn.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh if only the rest of the world felt that way too. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
If you started the thread, simply deleting your post (the first one of the thread) will result in deletion of the entire thread.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
I don't think there's a name for that, in that it isn't a fallacy; it's just wrong. (It's not a fallacy because "Your argument contains a fallacy" is sometimes true!)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Or, in Resh's case, always true.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
More like, "There seems to be an argument somewhere amidst the fallacies."
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
It sounds to me like it could to could be a specific case of an appeal to ridicule.
"1+1=2"? That's just so illogical!!"
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
FYI: This is Resh' response to Tom and I pointing out that the following post by Resh contained an ad hominem attack.
quote:I have discovered recently that my participation on this forum (as well as a few others) and generally in all the friendly debates I find myself most likely to be engaged in have me taking the angle most diametrically opposite the one exhibiting the most flagrant displays of arrogance and notions of superiority and enlightenment. So I'm learning some things about myself here, and I thank you all for that. I think my entire contribution to any future threads here will basically be along the lines of a suggestion to "get over yourself."
See it in context at the bottom of this page.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm still trying to figure out why CT's name is in the thread title.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Because he said it would be...? *shrug*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Uh huh. And that rather begs the question, neh?
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Not really. That is a very commonly misused phrase: "begging the question." But I am asking for CT because 1) She is nice, and 2) She seems to know a lot about logical constructs.
It's not an ad hominem because I am attacking the argument, not the arguer. A very nice and soft-spoken person could try to compassionately explain how Global Warming is a fact, and here's why, and not act arrogant about it. But because the argument hinges on the idea that those making know so much more about it than I do, and that the only way I could disagree is by being ignorant of the facts, and just because the actual arguments for Global Warming are not convincing to the uninitiated does not mean I should continue to resist because resistance is futile, so sayeth Academy Award Winner Al Gore, well, that is the problem I have, and that is the arrogance and self-righteousness that I oppose.
To be honest, most of the Global Warming fanatics are very sensitive people who are deeply concerned with the planet and humanity. They want good things for us. I just don't like being told that I'm not allowed to disagree.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I don't quite understand the question. I think the word you may be looking for is "wrong" or "incorrect" or "unsubstantiated." When someone makes a claim that is wrong, incorrect, and/or unsubstantiated, it isn't necesarily a logical fallacy -- it may just be a wrong, incorrect, or unsubstantiated claim.
That is merely the assignment of a truth value (namely, "false") to a proposition.
In contrast, a logical fallacy -- by definition -- has to do with how propositions are asserted to link together to support a conclusion. This is at a different level of analysis than the truth value of the individual propositions.
I can't comment on the actual argument at hand, as I haven't been following it, and I will not be reading it. *smile
Hope this helps.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
See what I mean, everybody? She knows her stuff! I think she showed up 15 minutes after I posted because I called her nice and her complement radar when off.
Thanks, CT, but I was being facetious. I was just trying to goad Tom. Why? I don't know, it's fun!
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
So you called out CT, asked her to take time to answer your question, and then when she graciously answers your question, you say that you really don't care? What makes you think people are ever going to take time to respond to you when you act like this?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: See what I mean, everybody? She knows her stuff! I think she showed up 15 minutes after I posted because I called her nice and her complement radar when off.
I was migrainous yesterday and only reading what was necessary. Luckily, this passed with sleep.
quote:Thanks, CT, but I was being facetious. I was just trying to goad Tom. Why? I don't know, it's fun!
Ah. So you were using me as a tool, as a means only to your end?
I disapprove. Quite strongly, actually, as this is the sort of blightful action likely to make me migrainous once more.
Don't do it again. *fisheye Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I believe it is called the, "Just Because You're an Expert and I'm Not Doesn't Mean My Opinion Isn't Just as Valid As Yours Because This Is America, Dammit" argument.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
This typical.
Both CT's class, and Resh's lack of it.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I'm sorry. I was just having fun.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: This typical.
Both CT's class, and Resh's lack of it.
What's your problem? What did you have to do with anything? I'm sick of hearing from you. You and King Of Men seem to have only the purpose of being insulting to people you disagree with. I've had people make valid complaints about being insulting, but that is never my sole intention with any of my posts. Sometimes I do it inadvertently, and sometimes carelessly, but I don't go hunting around for you or KoM just to drop something meanspirited. So unless you want to engage me like the other's do, why don't you gracefully abstain from directing anything you have to say toward me.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It's not cool to have fun at the expense of others.
Thanks for the apology. I appreciate it very much.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: What's your problem? What did you have to do with anything? I'm sick of hearing from you. You and King Of Men seem to have only the purpose of being insulting to people you disagree with.
The irony!!! It burns, it burns!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I'm sorry. I was just having fun.
You were having fun, getting someone else to dance to the tune you called, while in the guise of asking because you respected and liked them.
Don't start whining when people get pissed about that, especially when you do it to someone as well-liked in this community as CT.
quote:I've had people make valid complaints about being insulting, but that is never my sole intention with any of my posts.
Thanks, CT, but I was being facetious. I was just trying to goad Tom. Why? I don't know, it's fun!
You are so full of crap, Reshpeckobiggle. You're coming into KoM territory yourself, without the somewhat mitigating benefit he enjoys of being funny sometimes, and genuinenly interesting to listen to outside of his fanatic-area issues.
There is at least one insult in that quote, and possibly two. So there goes your BS claim that you don't deliberately try to be insulting.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I'm glad, CT, I meant it. I do like you too, I think you are very nice.
Come on, Rivka, it's true. People get insulted by me, but I really don't insult for it's own sake. Sometimes they come out becuase the timing is right, and that's no excuse, but you know I don't do what Kwea and KoM do.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Come on, Rivka, it's true. People get insulted by me, but I really don't insult for it's own sake.
The evidence indicates otherwise. And there is a lot of evidence.
And pray do not use the "he started it!" or "but he's doing worse stuff!" excuses. What are you, six?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You just did what you said you don't do. By your own words, you're full of crap. I even put it in bold for you.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I fear the fisheye.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I fear the fisheye.
It's the best part of the fish if you ask any Chinese person, you must never pick it up for yourself, it must be offered to you.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Trying to goad Tom is an insult? He knew I was being lighthearted about the whole thing and responded in kind. I apologized to CT for my insensitivity, and I think we/re OK. What are you guys here for? To tell me off, it seems. Well, I'm not going to say anything more about it.
Is that true, Blackblade? I mean, I'm sure it is. Would it be an insult to refuse, or vomit?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: Is that true, Blackblade? I mean, I'm sure it is. Would it be an insult to refuse, or vomit?
In the case of refusing, depends on who you are with. Chinese people are not identical across the board, use your best judgment. If it was say your boss, swallow the eyes, pretend to chew and smile afterwards.
In the case of vomit, it is to be hoped that the sheer horror of vomiting in the company of others would suppress your desire to ralph. But fortunately for you, if you barfed in the presence of Chinese people, they would probably laugh it off, and somebody would make it their primary concern to help you clean up.
They are very sweet and decent people.
Edited for grammar and clarity.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:I feel like a jerk.
well, if the shoe fits....
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: This typical.
Both CT's class, and Resh's lack of it.
So unless you want to engage me like the other's do, why don't you gracefully abstain from directing anything you have to say toward me.
Riiiiight.
I have been posting here for over 6 years, and all I do is look for YOUR posts and snipe?
I am not saying I don't snipe at you...I think it is about time for someone to give you a taste of it since you seem to enjoy it yourself....but I have at least made a serious contribution to this board in the past 6 years. I have hosted Hatrack parties, I have helped Hatrackers out, people I know just from Hatrack helped me move and helped me ease into life in FL when I moved.
I have been part of the comedy squad, part of the organizers of events here, and have always tried to be open to others views....as long as they were respectful of mine in return.
What the hell have you contributed again?
Not a hell of a lot.
Get a clue. I have a problem with you because you are clueless and ignorant, and insist that you know better than everyone else...and then whine and cry when no one agrees with you because your "logic" isn't convincing.
I will engage you politely when I see you doing the same. Make an argument WITHOUT insulting or belittling people who disagree and there is no problem.
Continue down the same path and expect more of the same.
I am done with allowing people like you to ruin my favorite place on the web. I won't stalk you....you aren't worth the effort, frankly, but if I small a rat I will continue to say I do.
You want people to take your serious and engage your arguments?
Try living what you are preaching first.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Everybody who disagrees with me is a poopy-head!
Yay, I fulfil my purpose in life!
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
o.O Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote: Is that true, Blackblade? I mean, I'm sure it is. Would it be an insult to refuse, or vomit?
In the case of refusing, depends on who you are with. Chinese people are not identical across the board, use your best judgment. If it was say your boss, swallow the eyes, pretend to chew and smile afterwards.
In the case of vomit, it is to be hoped that the sheer horror of vomiting in the company of others would suppress your desire to ralph. But fortunately for you, if you barfed in the presence of Chinese people, they would probably laugh it off, and somebody would make it their primary concern to help you clean up.
They are very sweet and decent people.
Edited for grammar and clarity.
Don't I know it. I live in an apartment complex with mostly international students here as CSU. The asians in general are all very polite and friendly. They seem very appreciative of small gestures, which is all one can manage usually. Like learning to say hello in Cantonese or Hindu.
Kwea, I generally try to come to each thread with a completely clean slate. I understand if you feel entitle to some deference because of your history here, but I;m not going to treat you any differently than someone who just came here. Where in Florida are you?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: What's the logical fallacy where someone keeps accusing you of using a logical fallacy where none exists?
I ... I think it's now called ... the CT fallacy.
*whispers
*mortified
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Nah. The "CT fallacy" is assuming that just because CT is usually exceedingly polite and sweet, one is able to take advantage of her good nature without fear of response.
I'm with Chris on this one.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*grin
Fear the fisheye.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*averts eyes*
*backs away*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I have never claimed any need for deference due to anything. All I ask is that you stop telling people what they think and feel, and take into consideration that they may feel just as strong as you about whatever topic you are discussing.
That doesn't make them stupid, or immoral, or even wrong.
I live in Central Florida, but just moved about 6 months ago from Kissimmee to Ocala. I am good friends with Icarus and his family, whom I met here years ago. They are in the Kissimmee area too....
zgator, who doesn't post here as much these days, lives near here as well, and Apple is currently working at Disney, I think. newfoundlogic lived here as well, before his untimely death....and Chris Bridges lives near here as well. My friend Kevin joined here, and lurks often but doesn't post much...he lives in the same area, near Disney.
We have a fairly decent sized group here in Central FL.
Part of the problem may be that you might not have understood how close knit parts of this community is, and how different Hatrack has been over the years compared to most places on the web.
Or maybe not. I don't know what you are aware of or not....
A lot of us have made points of getting together whenever we are in someones area. Whole families have taken vacation together, and even people who are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum with regard to religion and/or politics regularly make trips to see other Hatrackers. I drove 2 hours each way to meet Bob_Scopatz in Boston, all for about 2-3 hours over dinner, all because he seemed cool and I wanted to meet him. zgator helped me find an apartment, and Icky became one of my best friends ever.
It isn't about any special benefits from being here a while, it is that a lot of the sense of community we use to have seems diminished these days.
And argumentative, dismissive posts have become if not the norm at least less unusual.
I will lay off a bit, for now. I am sorry I came on so strong, I guess, but a lot of what I read in your posts DID seem very argumentative and dismissive of others views.
You aren't stupid, but believe me when I say that you aren't communicating your points well if you think you haven't been all you have been accused of recently. It isn't one thread people are talking about, or one topic. It is a repeated series of actions over a period of time.....
...if you really don't want to piss people off, and you re just trying to make your points, you have not succeeded, have you? I knew I was being tough and offensive to a point. I was trying to make my point to you, even if it was made heavy handed.
So the next time you accuse someone of thinking something they haven't said, or ignoring something that is "obvious", you can't say you didn't know how offensive claiming to know these things can be.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you know something they don't. It could be that their values or priorities are different, and for good reasons, and so they came to a different conclusion that you did.
[ March 27, 2007, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I'd like to point out that this was already posted at 2:10 p.m.:
quote:I'm sorry.
I'd also like to suggest (generally speaking) that if you are afraid that the Hatrack "community" is being destroyed, it is probably you that is destroying it. I say this because the webpage you are looking at is a discussion forum, not a community. It exists so we can discuss things. The community associated with it exists separately, in the minds of Hatrackers, through the feelings of friendship and relationships they each hold to others. Those relationships are not harmed by anything written on the discussion forum unless you decide to let it. If you choose to let your frustration with words written on the forum leak into relationships with others here, then so be it. But I see no reason why you can't choose to let it go, instead.
My suspicion is that if we can't let it go, then it may be unwise to base a social community around a forum designed more or less for argument.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, it is a good thing I don't particularily care what you think about these issues, Xap...
...particularily since you are the most obvious example of "changing definitions" I have ever seen, Xap. you use to constantly attempt to define terms for others in ways that they disagreed with, then try to accuse them of deviating from YOUR definitions of terms even though they had never accepted your re-definition of it in the first place.
I don't claim to speak for Hatrack in general...I never have....but I am hardly the first to notice this change, or even comment on it recently.
They way people treat each other IS noticed, and does influence others even on a web board.
I can count the number of people I have gone off on on one hand, and that is the total number in 6 years of posting. One or two of them didn't deserve it, at least not as bad as I went off, and I made sure I apoligized.
Two others were banned, and not for any discussion I had with them....so I guess I was on to something.
This time I don't feel like I am wrong, nor do I feel it is all in my head.
As to your suggestion that I am destroying anything here....whatever. I am the least of the problem.
I only say what I feel and think...not what others do.
Nor do I insist of redefining all the terms in ever single debate in order to make my points.
I also refuse to accept that discussion = argument just because you say so, and the idea that a community based on discussion of ideas is flawed.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I didn't say that a community based on discussion of ideas is necessarily flawed. I think it is flawed IF you don't ultimately let it go when people say things you don't like.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I'm originally from South Florida, West Palm Beach region. I had some good friends from Ocala, so there you go.
[quote]Rakeesh Part of the problem may be that you might not have understood how close knit parts of this community is, and how different Hatrack has been over the years compared to most places on the web.
Or maybe not. I don't know what you are aware of or not.... [quote]
See how you caught yourself there? You don't always do that. You see, we always know more or less what we mean to say. But rare is the person who always more or less says what he means. I don't presume to know anyone's unstated motivations. All I can do is base my responses opn what others say. Much gets lost in the ether, so to speak. This is a classic problem. The real trouble is when someone takes these constant miscommunications and uses them as an excuse to belittle, demean, and even ostracize, as I feel is ofetn the purpose of some of posts directed at me. I don't know that that was your purpose ever, but that's my determination based on what I have to work with. Now I'm not gonna give that caveat every time I speak; it should be something that is implicitly understood. Let's just all agree that sometimes things come out wrong, or more offensive, than was intended. Especially on an internet forum, where vocal tone and inflection is nearly absent. Italics are about the best we've got.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Its so odd to have a thread bearing Claudia Therese's name and yet so much venom is being being spewn about.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Reshpeckobiggle, you have consistently even after my explaining (with the help of others) belittled, insulted, ignored, or twisted arguments I have made to suit your own interpretation. Even when I say, "No, I am not saying what you're saying I'm saying," you've still done it.
That's not miscommunication on my part, and it's very likely not a misunderstanding on yours. I'm not going to agree that the routine insults you make just "come out wrong", given that you keep on doing it.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
One of my favorite events in life is when I have a nagging feeling about someone, and then they come right and and prove my feeling to be completely substantiated.
Man, that's awesome.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I may have belittled, insulted, and even ignored your arguments. I don't know that I've twisted them. Maybe pointed out some implications you haven't considered, which can look a lot like twisting. But here's the thing: Aside form however much an argument is a reflection of the arguer, I have never done those things to you. I respect you; I don't respect bad arguments. I do repsect the possibility that some arguments are good and I incorrectly think that they are bad. The abortion one we are having elsewhere right now is one of the few where my personal boubts have been greatly minimized because of how often I've had the debate and seen my opponents fall flat against it.
[Edited] for clarity.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Resh, believe me: your considerable ego is undeserved.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Resh, believe me: your considerable ego is undeserved.
I believe you. How could anyone's enormously inflated ego be deserved? But what does my ego have to do with anything? Does it make me wrong? Or just annoying?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I fear the fisheye.
It's the best part of the fish if you ask any Chinese person, you must never pick it up for yourself, it must be offered to you.
I fear I'm actually being off topic by not jumping into the argument, which is a curious thought. Anyways, as your next post points out, "not all Chinese people are identical", and I am proud to be one that definitely does not like eating the eye.
I also know a fair number of Northerns that do not like it either. I secretly suspect this is because they always fry the fish, so the whole fish ends up tasting bad, including the eye. And by secretly suspect, I mean I'm secretly suspecting it up to the point of publicly announcing it on a public forum Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: I may have belittled, insulted, and even ignored your arguments.
Out of curiosity, do you think that's productive?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Does it make me wrong? Or just annoying?
I think that, in many cases, it does both; it leads you into error and prevents you from making your points in productive ways.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:The abortion one we are having elsewhere right now is one of the few where my personal boubts have been greatly minimized because of how often I've had the debate and seen my opponents fall flat against it.
What makes you wrong is the way you, by your own words, ignore the arguments of others, when those arguments address substantial flaws in your reasoning.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I fear the fisheye.
It's the best part of the fish if you ask any Chinese person, you must never pick it up for yourself, it must be offered to you.
I fear I'm actually being off topic by not jumping into the argument, which is a curious thought. Anyways, as your next post points out, "not all Chinese people are identical", and I am proud to be one that definitely does not like eating the eye.
I also know a fair number of Northerns that do not like it either. I secretly suspect this is because they always fry the fish, so the whole fish ends up tasting bad, including the eye. And by secretly suspect, I mean I'm secretly suspecting it up to the point of publicly announcing it on a public forum
Duly noted! I've had lasik done on my eyes, I wonder if that temporarily altered what they would have tasted like. Better or worse?
Would a steak taste better or worse if some sort of lasers array were used to cook it rather then a grill? Who can know these things?!
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:What makes you wrong is the way you, by your own words, ignore the arguments of others...
He did say "may have ... ignored". That's not really admission of guilt.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:The abortion one we are having elsewhere right now is one of the few where my personal boubts have been greatly minimized because of how often I've had the debate and seen my opponents fall flat against it.
What makes you wrong is the way you, by your own words, ignore the arguments of others, when those arguments address substantial flaws in your reasoning.
I try not to ignore arguments with merit. If I ignored an argument, it is either because I missed it or didn't think it was worth wasting my time. Honestly, few are a waste of time, so whichever ones were never addressed, I probably just missed them. However, sometimes you have accused me of ignoring certain arguments that I did not. You just didn't like my answer. In those cases, you should just tell me where I went wrong rather than just tell me I'm being dense, because unless I see what's wrong with it myself, I'm not going to retype everything again.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I try not to ignore arguments with merit.
The snarky part of me says I should reply with "try harder."
Seriously, though, I believe you. I think, though, that you aren't actually very good at detecting arguments with merit, and are too quick to dismiss and belittle those of a scope you don't understand. This understandably angers people, and then the whole thing goes, as they say, balls-up.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Does it make me wrong? Or just annoying?
I think that, in many cases, it does both; it leads you into error and prevents you from making your points in productive ways.
Seriously, I agree with the sentiment. I don't think I have a huge ego. I think the way I write makes me seem like I do. This is true, but I have been called a liar before for saying it: I really do try my best to understand myself, and what my opponents say. I don't dismiss anyone's opinions. I am very introspective and I look for and recognize as many flaws in my thinking as possible. This is not easy and I'll never be 100 percent on everything; not even close. But I stand behind my arguments fiercely, because to do otherwise would not make others challenge them fiercely. And finally, you need to understand that I see others displaying the very same insulting, egotistic and arrogant attitudes at the very moment they are accusing me of doing the same. And since I know that many times I am being completely misinterpreted, or I simply don't see the truth in what they are saying, I recognize that the others are just the same.
Do you think of yourself as being especially elitist and condescending? I doubt it. But you seem that way to me. I try to ignore it, seeing as how I find focusing on it counterproductive and distracting. I don't expect others to do the same, so I generally just let it slide. Truly insulting and abusive attacks, like those of Kwea and KoM in the past, I do take exception to. But The next time I see either of them, I start with a clean slate.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Do you think of yourself as being especially elitist and condescending? I doubt it. But you seem that way to me.
Most of Hatrack including myself would strongly disagree.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Oh, I don't know about strongly.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Duly noted! I've had lasik done on my eyes, I wonder if that temporarily altered what they would have tasted like. Better or worse?
Would a steak taste better or worse if some sort of lasers array were used to cook it rather then a grill? Who can know these things?!
Laser surgery? No clue. Not being too familiar with laser surgery, but I would guess that it would slightly cauterize the tissue, perhaps make it slightly crispier? But it would be a far cry from frying the fish, and I guess I should elaborate. When I say they fry the fish, I mean deep fry, not stir-fry.
However, I guess no one will really know until they try it. So in the case of your eyes, time to donate your body to science and find out (or rather, let others find out) Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Disagree with what? That I think Tom seems elitist and condescending? Why would I care if most of Hatrack disagrees with how something appears to me? Hatrack isn't me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I AM perfectly capable of being elitist and condescending; those are not traits which are alien to me by any means. *grin* And I will certainly agree that I've been condescending to Resh here and there.
quote:But I stand behind my arguments fiercely, because to do otherwise would not make others challenge them fiercely.
I'm not sure why you would prefer to be challenged fiercely instead of, say, effectively. It's far more impressive -- and far more useful to someone looking to refine his philosophy -- to defend against a methodical challenge than to defend against a fierce one. It's my opinion that by trolling for ferocity, you're essentially trying to reap a whirlwind; when people react with hostility to comments designed to provoke them, it seems frankly unsporting to then comment on their hostility as if it were unexpected or unwelcome.
quote:The next time I see either of them, I start with a clean slate.
I don't think this is necessarily true. Nor do I think that, even if it were, it would necessarily be productive. Unlike most forums, Hatrack is not just a conglomeration of disparate and unconnected threads; the relationships here, although generally (but not exclusively) nourished in discussion threads, sprawl wildly and persist between conversations. If I insult someone in one thread, it's silly for me to expect that they will react to me as if I'm a stranger in an unrelated thread; the thread is, after all, just a label. It's no real barrier.
I don't dislike you, Resh. Far from it. I think you genuinely don't understand why so many people here are deeply annoyed by your approach so far, and I think you would genuinely like to understand. But I'm afraid I'd have to go point by point through your posts, indicating the offensive bits, to help you with that -- and I suspect you'd find that as tiresome as I would.
Here are two suggestions that I think would go a long way:
1) When voicing your opinion, do not suggest that it is the only possible correct opinion, or that it is inconceivable to you that someone might have a more compelling argument than your own. On a message board, this is the equivalent of calling somebody out; it's like striding into a dusty saloon, bellying up to the bar, and placing the sidearm and badge of the local sheriff -- gone missing three days, now -- on the top of the piano.
2) When you tell people that you have taken up a rhetorical position on one side of an argument because it seems that the people on that side are less "X," where "X" is an insult, you have in fact insulted the people on the other side of the argument; if they're paying attention, they'll notice. This is especially irritating if those people actually care about the issue, and aren't simply choosing their position based on the perceived "X" values of its advocates.
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
((( Kwea, posting as his wife because she didn't log out)))
Resh...no vendetta here, I promise.
Above you stated that you didn't ever assume you know what someone knew, or all of what they meant.
I find that interesting because teh main reason I was so argumentitive with you was because I had the exact opposite view of you...I can point out at least two places in just that thread where you exclaimed exactly that....that you know that people were using things as justifications when they really knew it was wrong, and that you knew what the really meant.
And that isn't the first time that has come up in a debate with you, either.
You have done it to me almost every time we have interacted here at Hatrack, and I was so sick of it I responded harshly.
Do you honestly not see where you did just that, despite your claims to the difference?
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Here are two suggestions that I think would go a long way:
You are asking Resh to change the way he posts. Will you change the way you post as well? And by that I mean changing this:
quote:You know, I AM perfectly capable of being elitist and condescending; those are not traits which are alien to me by any means. *grin* And I will certainly agree that I've been condescending to Resh here and there.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Honestly? Probably not. I'm capable of elitism and condescension, sure, along with a lot of other negative traits -- but I'm aware of those traits and already work to suppress them in myself. It's an asymptotic effort, though, I'm afraid.
More importantly, civility shouldn't be a tit-for-tat exchange. I'm not going to attempt to purchase Resh's good behavior with promises of better behavior on my part; the entire concept strikes me as childish in the extreme. And even if it were -- in some alternate universe -- a sensible idea, it ignores the fact that Resh and I likely place very different values on our respective behaviors; establishing a rate of exchange for civility would be in itself rather awkward.
I can imagine the negotiations: "Okay, you can call one person an idiot a week, but never the same person twice in a row. And in return I agree to avoid all use of smilies and excessive capitalization...."
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Zap, are you going to stop attempting to redefine peopled definitions during debates? I doubt it....
Resh wonders why people don't get him, and are picking on him. Tom offered a way to change the way thing have been going...but I doubt he really cares one way or another if Resh takes his advice or not.
Suggestions are almost always welcome, as long as that is what they are....suggestions, not orders.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Honestly? Probably not. I'm capable of elitism and condescension, sure, along with a lot of other negative traits -- but I'm aware of those traits and already work to suppress them in myself. It's an asymptotic effort, though, I'm afraid.
I figured that would be the honest answer. So my next question is: Should I be mad at you for your inability to completely control these negative traits? Or should I let it go, on the assumption that you are doing your best to be nice?
You can answer that question for yourself, but my opinion is that it does no good to get angry over it. I think it is highly likely that the same advice you are giving to Resh has already been given to him multiple times, if not in real life then at least on other threads, in one form or another. My guess is that he is already aware of his faults here, given that he has pretty much admitted to having a big ego, to causing trouble, etc. But my bet is that he cannot change at the snap of a finger any more than you or I could. My bet is that he will continue to simultaneously admit his faults yet also defend himself, just as you or I would. So, my opinion is that it would be best to extend to him (and to everyone with faults) the credit of believing that they are trying to contain their faults. Suggestions are probably helpful to some degree, but neverending threads filled with angry complaints are not.
This is as true in real life as it is online, I'd add. I can recall countless roommate pairs in college who could each not stand the faults of the other. Those who ended up arguing constantly and hating eachother as a result were the ones least happy. Those who came to accept the faults of the other and to accept that the other was at least trying were considerably more content.
I saw no evidence that calling out another person on a fault will make that person change faster. I have seen very little evidence of this on Hatrack either. I am guilty of that too. I tend to always be optomistic that if I can say the correct thing, people will realize when they are doing something wrong, and will change. But that never seems to happen. Instead they get mad. Eventually some people change some - but as often as not it isn't in response to some big complaint or fight they get into.
quote:Zap, are you going to stop attempting to redefine peopled definitions during debates?
I will when I think it is no longer worth it. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert:
quote:Zap, are you going to stop attempting to redefine peopled definitions during debates?
I will when I think it is no longer worth it.
Then you are the pot calling the kettle black, aren't you.
BTW, last I saw it wasn't effective, and didn't convince anyone of anything. But feel free to continue. ...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: it ignores the fact that Resh and I likely place very different values on our respective behaviors; establishing a rate of exchange for civility would be in itself rather awkward.
It reminds me of the idea that if both members try do precisely 50% of the work required to maintain their marriage, it won't all get done.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Then you are the pot calling the kettle black, aren't you.
Well, not exactly - I don't consider a willingness to define/redefine things to be a fault. It is necessary to seriously resolve certain disagreements. But I do have plenty of other attributes that are faults, so I am like "the pot" in that sense. Although I'm not calling the kettle black so much as suggesting that we shouldn't get so worked up over the kettle's blackness.
quote:BTW, last I saw it wasn't effective, and didn't convince anyone of anything.
It is rare for anything to convince anyone around here, but I have found that discussing definitions in some cases is effective at getting to the heart of a disagreement. Often what many people consider to be part of a definition is actually a hidden unjustified assumption.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Honestly? Probably not. I'm capable of elitism and condescension, sure, along with a lot of other negative traits -- but I'm aware of those traits and already work to suppress them in myself. It's an asymptotic effort, though, I'm afraid.
More importantly, civility shouldn't be a tit-for-tat exchange. I'm not going to attempt to purchase Resh's good behavior with promises of better behavior on my part; the entire concept strikes me as childish in the extreme. And even if it were -- in some alternate universe -- a sensible idea, it ignores the fact that Resh and I likely place very different values on our respective behaviors; establishing a rate of exchange for civility would be in itself rather awkward.
I can imagine the negotiations: "Okay, you can call one person an idiot a week, but never the same person twice in a row. And in return I agree to avoid all use of smilies and excessive capitalization...."
I assume you believe (correctly) that Israel is wasting its time trying to make peace with its neighbors.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert:
quote:Then you are the pot calling the kettle black, aren't you.
Well, not exactly - I don't consider a willingness to define/redefine things to be a fault. It is necessary to seriously resolve certain disagreements. But I do have plenty of other attributes that are faults, so I am like "the pot" in that sense. Although I'm not calling the kettle black so much as suggesting that we shouldn't get so worked up over the kettle's blackness.
quote:BTW, last I saw it wasn't effective, and didn't convince anyone of anything.
It is rare for anything to convince anyone around here, but I have found that discussing definitions in some cases is effective at getting to the heart of a disagreement. Often what many people consider to be part of a definition is actually a hidden unjustified assumption.
If all parties are in agreement that the definition needs to be redefined, then that is right.
If, on the other hand, someone uses a definition that no one else agrees with, then insists that by HIS rules they have all just admitted he was right.....or insist that a third party had REALLY meant, according to the "new" definition something completely the opposite of what he "claims" his intent was....
I don't think that is conducive to discussion of anything at all. It is more of an argumentative, verbal masturbatory exercise then a debate.
One person doesn't get to define what the words mean in a constructive discussion, particularly when all other parties in the conversation disagree with him.
I see a lot of people change their minds around here, and I have changed my own opinions on several important (to me, anyway) issues because of debates here at Hatrack. I think it happens a lot ore than you think it does.....
Just not in thread where you engage in that type of behavior.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Yes, it is important to uncover hidden assumptions. But Tres, you have acquired a reputation here for dishonestly manipulating definitions as a rhetorical trick. It's past time to find a new gambit.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Too bad, because before he used to do that I liked reading some of his posts. Even when we disagreed it was interesting.
Now I rarely bother reading them at all...at least in serious topics.
Chalk one up for it not being effective, I guess. Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Yes, it is important to uncover hidden assumptions. But Tres, you have acquired a reputation here for dishonestly manipulating definitions as a rhetorical trick.
Yes, although that isn't really a fair reputation. My use of definitions certainly isn't dishonest, and many people here (Tom, Dagonee, etc.) define things at least as often as I do, if not more so.
quote:Too bad, because before he used to do that I liked reading some of his posts. Even when we disagreed it was interesting.
Now I rarely bother reading them at all...at least in serious topics.
Chalk one up for it not being effective, I guess.
In all fairness, is that because I am likely to be defining things in all those threads you don't read, or because you are mad at me for defining things in one particular thread where you disagreed with me? I think it was about abortion - and at least on that topic, I don't think even the most effective technique of getting a point across will change too many people's minds too quickly.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Duly noted! I've had lasik done on my eyes, I wonder if that temporarily altered what they would have tasted like. Better or worse?
Would a steak taste better or worse if some sort of lasers array were used to cook it rather then a grill? Who can know these things?!
Laser surgery? No clue. Not being too familiar with laser surgery, but I would guess that it would slightly cauterize the tissue, perhaps make it slightly crispier? But it would be a far cry from frying the fish, and I guess I should elaborate. When I say they fry the fish, I mean deep fry, not stir-fry.
However, I guess no one will really know until they try it. So in the case of your eyes, time to donate your body to science and find out (or rather, let others find out)
People have certainly given up their lives in less worthy causes, so why not!?
Porter:
quote:It reminds me of the idea that if both members try do precisely 50% of the work required to maintain their marriage, it won't all get done.
I've never heard that, would you care to elaborate? I sorta see how it works but I am not sure thats the idea you are suggesting.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: I think it was about abortion - and at least on that topic, I don't think even the most effective technique of getting a point across will change too many people's minds too quickly.
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