Is it really any of the police’s business if you don’t look after your front gardens? Here (the UK) whether are gardens are tidy and plants are watered is up to you. The only time authorities would get involved in the state of your lawn is if there is a hosepipe ban and you have a lovely fresh green lawn.
Is it typical for areas to have rules about what you do with your gardens, or is this an unusual situation?
With all the rain we’ve had recently my lawn is looking rather long and untidy – I’m glad I can’t be arrested over it!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Sounds more like a city ordinance enforcement officer, rather than regular police -- hard to tell by this version of the story -- I will have to go to a Utah newspaper site to get another version,probably.
Although, it doesn't sound like things went like they should have.
That said, remember an officer's job is only to ENFORCE the current laws. If a law is stupid, it's not his fault -- he doesn't make the laws, just carry out the command to enforce them.
FG
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, I guess the local news makes it sound just as bad. He was definately out of line.
quote: Orem City Attorney Paul Johnson said although a dead lawn is grounds for arrest, based on Orem's nuisance ordinance, it's quite uncommon.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
"But she was let go when police realised there were "other ways" of finding out her identity without jailing her, a police spokesman said"
Well, duh.
To answer your question, I've never heard of people being arrested for bad lawns, but there are local ordinances and such in some places that regulate the look of a home or its green space. They can require trees be removed or whatever, depending on the local laws.
Where I live, we have a neighborhood association. The idea is to protect our property values by preventing people's neglect of their home's appearance. We recently got a nasty-gram from them for our lawn work. (Our grass had died due to a watering ban, too much shade, etc. But they were upset that we had killed the weeds that grew in it's place and swept up the pine straw in preparation for planting hardier grass seed. Oy. Now we're afraid to seed it because of the watering ban. Sod would pose the same problem.)
Harassing old ladies seems beyond the pale, though.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:When she said she couldn't afford to water her lawn at 1568 S. 800 East the officer started to write her a ticket for violating the city's nuisance ordinance. The ordinance requires residents to keep a maintained, live yard. Perry didn't want to give her name, which could be obtained through property records, and asked to go back inside to call her son. As she tried to leave, the officer grabbed her arm and slapped on the first handcuff.
It's common to arrest people who refuse to give their name when an officer attempts to issue a summons. Technically she was arrested for violating the nuisance ordinance, but she wouldn't have been arrested had she cooperated with receiving the summons.
The police officer probably escalated too quickly, and from her account (which is entirely one-sided, by the way, so we can't know how accurate it is) he didn't properly inform her of that she was under arrest, which would make it hard to prove that she was resisting.
As to police involvement with lawn care, this kind of situation is always a possibility with these kind of regulations. If someone refuses to cooperate with a summons, what are the choices besides arrest or choosing not to enforce the regulation?
This is why I think many governments (and citizens) are way too quick to regulate their way out of problems. Regulations are always enforced at the point of a gun, whether that gun is actually out or simply in the background awaiting someone who doesn't cooperate with less coercive means of enforcement.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Utah is burning to the ground due to the drought, and idjits are going after folks for failure to waste HUGE amounts of water.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Yeah - I thought of that too - when I read that article. I first thought "why are they having her water when they are in a drought/fire area" but then I also thought "what a tinder box that could be to have such a dry lawn - maybe they are trying to PREVENT a fire"
I really have no clue as to their logic though.
However, I will be happy to send them rain if I could. We definitely have much more than we need this year...
FG
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
by the way, Kettricken -- good to see you posting again!
We were just talking about you at my house the other day -- my mom asked me "about that gal you sent a Christmas gift to in England" (through the Hatrack gift exchange a couple years back) and I said, "I haven't heard from her or seen her post at all on Hatrack lately!"
Glad to know you're still around! Post more!
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
There was a case a few years ago were a couple went to great expense to xeriscape their yard with hardy native plants, gravel, boulders, etc. to preserve water. It looked very nice, however city regulations (another Utah city) required a certain percentage of the yard be grass so they were forced to tear it up and plant a lawn.
[ July 09, 2007, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Here in South Florida, watering your lawn on the wrong day currently IS a police matter...
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I think some towns require you to keep your lawn mowed so mosquitos don't build nests in the tall grass.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Don't mosquitoes lay eggs in still water?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Mosquitos don't build nests -- they lay their eggs in pools of stagnant water.
Wasps do build nests in tall grass, though, as I've learned this year.
edit: jinx!
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
I personally blame the British aristocracy for this whole mess.
Posted by Kettricken (Member # 8436) on :
Wasting water was one of the things I thought about when I read the article. Here if the summer is dry enough to lead to brown grass we are strongly discouraged from watering (with hosepipe bans in the worst affected areas).
I’m surprised that regulations can determine what you do with your own garden – we would never stand for that here! Replacing grass with drought tolerant plants seems like a very sensible thing to do, and not allowing that shows complete disregard for the environment - work with nature not against it.
Farmgirl – I still read Hatrack, but don’t find I have time to post very often. I could make one post, but then not be able to follow up for a few days.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think if it were for being a fire hazard, it wouldn't be under the nuisance ordinance. Well, I've known some pretty feisty women who were over 70. Heck, my dad is 70.
I have to go lay down now.
P.S. I don't know about Orem, but Provo has some really pea-brained ordinances in place, which the city council admitted make it possible for them to prosecute "undesireables". For instance you can't actually own more cars than you have unimpeded parking spots for in Provo. Most people do, but it's only a problem if you're an undesireable, apparently.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Orem has a lot of ordinances designed to keep things looking nice and neat, especially in comparison to its more historically rural neighbors like Lindon and American Fork. They're really strict about what pets you can and cannot have. IIRC, you can't even have a rabbit for a pet in Orem, because rabbits are livestock, not pets. Of course, those laws are generally only enforced when somebody complains.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Is there a risk of a dry lawn catching fire in the summer?
Also people keep saying Utah is in the middle of a drought and I just don't see that at ALL. Its the summer, summers are dry.
Spring, Fall, and especially winter saw PLENTY of water. I'll believe we are in a drought when I don't see BYU campus belching out hundreds of gallons of water a minute to water the grass in the middle of the day instead of during early morning or at dusk. Congratulations, you just poured 5 gallons of water and the grass got about 1 mililiter of it because of evaporation. Not only that, the water is acting as a lens and its burning itself!
quote: Ms Perry...has been offered help by local church leaders to clean up her garden."
Good! This is the sort of thing that makes for a great priesthood activity.
I feel bad for the woman, I really do. But you don't get to just, "go sit down to get away from the policeman."
If she was a dude she would have been firmly tackled.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Also people keep saying Utah is in the middle of a drought
Probably not an official drought, I don't know. I was only basing that comment on the fact that the wildfires out there are making national headlines, so I figured it must be very dry.
FG
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl:
quote: Also people keep saying Utah is in the middle of a drought
Probably not an official drought, I don't know. I was only basing that comment on the fact that the wildfires out there are making national headlines, so I figured it must be very dry.
FG
I've only lived here for 4 years, but I did come here every summer since I was about 4. I can conciously remember fires taking place every summer. I'm pretty sure fire departments actually cause fires in the spring preemptively in order to prevent larger orders of fire from forming.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
BB -- Utah had a drought that lasted about 5 years, which ended about three years ago.
edit: Fix the numbers, add the link
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Of course, those laws are generally only enforced when somebody complains.
Yup. We've got 9 chickens and our neighbor has two rabbits. We're within city limits, but just barely - there's a horse pasture on the other side of our back fence.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
In the American South we used to have the principle that you should be nice to old people. This takes precedence over things we usually put top priority on, like enforcing laws or being efficient with our time. For example, if you see granny wandering around muttering to herself, you do not arrest her for vagrancy or handcuff her because she can't tell you her name; you find out who she's kin to and tell them she needs to take her medication. Unfortunately I think this custom is now dead. I would like to think that when I'm too old to run away from justice the cops won't tackle me and break my hip just in case I decide to make a break for it.
It's also a little unclear how the policeman could fear she would evade justice. He already knew where she lived: a few feet from her lawn. Don't they cover that in training now?
In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: BB -- Utah had a drought that lasted about 5 years, which ended about three years ago.
This was my understanding as well, though I failed to mention it. I just still hear people talking about drought. When I was in the MTC back in the winter of 2001 the prophet asked us all to pray for moisture and that the drought would end. It dumped quite a bit that week.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
Well, he's been suspended already.... I think he got the point that he majorly screwed up
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
Thank God the universe is not merely just.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:It's also a little unclear how the policeman could fear she would evade justice. He already knew where she lived: a few feet from her lawn. Don't they cover that in training now?
In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
What if sweet old lady goes inside and gets a weapon?
What if she gets her dead beat son who is drunk and gets him to "talk" to the police officer, and he proceeds to assault the officer?
What if there is something amiss inside the home and she is going to dispose of the evidence because the officer spooked her?
What if she has a controled substance on her person and she wants to go inside and hide it before the officer gives her a pat down?
What if she is turning her back to the officer so she can reach into her waist and draw a weapon?
What if she had an outstanding warrant as was afraid the policeman was going to run her name in his computer?
All of those things DO happen, and unfortunately being an old lady does not somehow remove any possibility of them happening.
What could she have possibly lost by giving the officer her name?
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Utah is burning to the ground due to the drought, and idjits are going after folks for failure to waste HUGE amounts of water.
Yes. My first thoughts on reading the title is that I'd see it as more likely for the police to be involved in someone watering ( wasting) in a drought.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl:
quote: In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
Well, he's been suspended already.... I think he got the point that he majorly screwed up
Policeman are frequently put on "paid administrative leave," so that a panel can investigate the incident. In fact if a weapon is discharged regardless of the circumstance the officer involved is put on paid administrative leave.
They might find him at fault, they might not.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
What I find interesting about this is that when my Grandpa was a Cop, he used to laugh in people's faces when they called the Police to complain about a neighbors dry lawn. How things change.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: What if sweet old lady goes inside and gets a weapon?
What if she gets her dead beat son who is drunk and gets him to "talk" to the police officer, and he proceeds to assault the officer?
What if there is something amiss inside the home and she is going to dispose of the evidence because the officer spooked her?
What if she has a controled substance on her person and she wants to go inside and hide it before the officer gives her a pat down?
What if she is turning her back to the officer so she can reach into her waist and draw a weapon?
What if she had an outstanding warrant as was afraid the policeman was going to run her name in his computer?
All of those things DO happen, and unfortunately being an old lady does not somehow remove any possibility of them happening.
What could she have possibly lost by giving the officer her name?
Are we seriously suggesting that it is a justifiable action to strike an old lady in the face on the off chance that she might secretly have cocaine in her girdle?
Life is full of risk. The next passerby I see might have a stash of ganja weed in his small clothes, and might be walking to scope me out so he can blow me away next week. I will nonetheless try to restrain myself from assaulting everyone I see today.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I never got the feeling that the striking the face was purposeful as opposed to accidental. It is hard to tell from the write-up.
quote:In the scuffle, Perry tripped on the step and fell into the door frame, scraping her nose and elbows and leaving behind spots of blood on the door, and on her shirt and pants, said Orem Police Lt. Doug Edwards. Perry said the officer struck her in the face with the cuffs while he was restraining her.. . .
. .. As she went down, she tucked her hands under her stomach to keep from being handcuffed, which meant the officer had to pull her hands out, causing more scrapes, according to Edwards.
Sounds like there was quite a scuffle going on, so I don't know how much injury was part of her own doing in fighting him, and how much was deliberate. Really hard to tell without being there.
as a side note -- I can REALLY see my mom (who turns 70 this year) doing something like this when she is really mad. She's totally illogical when she's mad..
FG
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: In a just world, this cop would be immediately moved into a job where they give him demerits if he forgets and says "May I take your order?" instead of "Would you like to try one of our value specials," because after all, them's the rules.
In a just world people wouldn't condemn others to loss of their chosen livelihood without examining the evidence first.
quote:Are we seriously suggesting that it is a justifiable action to strike an old lady in the face on the off chance that she might secretly have cocaine in her girdle?
Are you seriously suggesting that it has been proven at all that her story is accurate?
Look again at what's been agreed on by her and the officer and what hasn't been. We don't know the officer struck her with the cuffs, we just know she claimed that he did.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
2-day storm doesn't faze drought The two-day storm that began clearing out Thursday [5July2007] afternoon drenched northern Utah with more than an inch of rain in spots around the Wasatch Front, and the upper elevations of the Wasatch Mountains gained more than a foot of snow. The precipitation was more than welcome, but National Weather Service forecasters say the cold Pacific storm barely dented water needs in what has so far been a year of drought. In fact, the Salt Lake Valley is about 7 inches short of what it would need to be normal. "We've had a below-average snowpack and below-average precipitation," said Brian McInerney, a hydrologist with the weather service's Salt Lake City bureau. "Now we're at the very end of the melting season. This storm is too little, too late."
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
That article is a month old, aspectre. I don't think it's rained here since then.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
My apologies. I assumed from "Utah's week in review" and "Article Last Updated: 06/10/2007 01:40:18 AM MDT" that TheSaltLakeTribune was referring to last Thursday. However, your correction along with reports such as "With forest fires raging, a drought dragging on..." / etc strengthens my belief that "...firefighters were battling wildfires in...areas which have been ravaged by prolonged drought" correctly included Utah.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Are we seriously suggesting that it is a justifiable action to strike an old lady in the face on the off chance that she might secretly have cocaine in her girdle?
Are you seriously suggesting that it has been proven at all that her story is accurate?
That I can easily answer: no. Blackblade did not say that she did or did not illegal substances on her person. He was speaking hypothetically. As for my statement: "Are we seriously suggesting that it is a justifiable action to strike an old lady in the face on the off chance that she might secretly have cocaine in her girdle?" is not reasonably paraphrased as "It has been proven that Betty Perry's story is accurate."
Regarding your other comment about premature judgments: I suppose it is possible that the old lady struck herself in the face when the policeman happened to be walking by. We should know by tomorrow when her knuckles start to swell.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wouldn't be surprised if they were worried about lawns catching fire. My dad told me there was a lawn fire on his way home from work today, and Michigan, though dry lately, isn't even in a drought.
Los Angeles (or was it Las Vegas? I don't remember) has made some impressive changes in the last decade in water conservation, cutting back on their water usage despite great increases in their population.
After a year of extreme wildfires, notably the one in Georgia, the biggest in a century, and the one burning right now in Utah, combined with high levels of drought that show no sign of leaving anytime soon means we have to change our habits and be extra cautious when it comes to water and forestry management. Florida is in trouble because they are exhausting underground aquifers at staggering rates on top of extremely bad drought. Parts of exposed Lake Okechobee lakebed have caught on fire lately.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Los Angeles (or was it Las Vegas? I don't remember) has made some impressive changes in the last decade in water conservation, cutting back on their water usage despite great increases in their population.
Both, I'm pretty sure. However, years of non-drought here in L.A. have caused some backsliding.
In Vegas, they don't have "drought." They have "desert." Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Is there a risk of a dry lawn catching fire in the summer?
Also people keep saying Utah is in the middle of a drought and I just don't see that at ALL. Its the summer, summers are dry.
Spring, Fall, and especially winter saw PLENTY of water.
BlackBlade, You clearly are misinformed. At the beginning of April, snow pack in the Wasatch mountains was just under 50% of normal. All other areas in the state were worse. Utah is definitely in a drought.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
In Vegas, they don't have drought. They cause desert elsewhere.
(I think I read, possibly in one of Lyrhawn's Green articles, that) LosAngelesCounty has reduced total water usage by ~10% in the time that the total population has increased by ~30%. ie The average Angeleno currently uses 31% less water than the Angeleno of the past.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Is there a risk of a dry lawn catching fire in the summer?
Also people keep saying Utah is in the middle of a drought and I just don't see that at ALL. Its the summer, summers are dry.
Spring, Fall, and especially winter saw PLENTY of water.
BlackBlade, You clearly are misinformed. At the beginning of April, snow pack in the Wasatch mountains was just under 50% of normal. All other areas in the state were worse. Utah is definitely in a drought.
Snow packs where actually at about 37%, but why nitpick?
quote: While monster snowstorms may be missing, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of reservoirs and pipelines will mean no water shortages this summer, said Chris Finlinson of the Central Utah Water Conservancy District.
"The reservoirs are in good shape," she said. "We will not have shortages in this area as others might in areas that don't have storage facilities."
Since no one can predict whether the drought will break or intensify next winter, water conservation will be especially necessary this year, she said.
I suppose if last winter snow fall was not up to snuff it's that easy to be in a drought. But I was pretty sure the long drought that many folks were biting their nails over ended some time ago. Doesn't mean drought can't return a year later.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Utah is in a drought. No amount of backpedaling changes that. And droughts are based on precipitation, so it makes no difference how much water you have in the reservoirs.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: In Vegas, they don't have drought. They cause desert elsewhere.
(I think I read, possibly in one of Lyrhawn's Green articles, that) LosAngelesCounty has reduced total water usage by ~10% in the time that the total population has increased by ~30%. ie The average Angeleno currently uses 31% less water than the Angeleno of the past.
I think that was one of the Green Energy thread articles. Those were the numbers I was trying to remember but couldn't off the top of my head.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Utah is in a drought. No amount of backpedaling changes that. And droughts are based on precipitation, so it makes no difference how much water you have in the reservoirs.
OK and I already conceded that it looks like we are back in a drought. But we have not been in one continuous drought over the last decade.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:As to police involvement with lawn care, this kind of situation is always a possibility with these kind of regulations. If someone refuses to cooperate with a summons, what are the choices besides arrest or choosing not to enforce the regulation?
Issue a summons, give her a fine, garnish her wages, put a lien on the house?
That law should be illegal anyway. Just like laws that say you can't use a clothes line.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Except for the lien on the house, positive identification is required for all these.
Beyond that, my larger point stands, especially in situations where you don't have something like a house that will provide a very good lead on identity: if you're not willing to arrest someone for violating a regulation in situations where a summons isn't cooperated with, the regulation shouldn't be in place.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think the policeman just picked the wrong little old lady to mess with. He learned that being a little old lady trumps being a policeman when it comes to personal power. He had obviously never met my grandmother or mom. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
[ July 19, 2007, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
And yet another case of lunatics taking over the asylum. This time, British local authorities are hassling a female pensioner for gardening without warning signs and a lookout.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
And yet another case of lunatics taking over the asylum. This time, British local authorities are hassling a female pensioner for gardening without warning signs and a lookout.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
It's a stupid regulation, but if she gets hit by a car, she'd probably sue the county for lack of safety. When everyone's first answer is a lawsuit, stupid rules to stop them are the norm.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
Granny should just get one of these installed - voila! no more lawn to water, mow or get tackled over
Seriously though, the police officer may need a little more instruction on dealing with older people. Sometimes they take a certain finesse - at least my fiesty grandma did!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:Police said samples of the burger were sent to the state crime lab for tests.
The tax dollars of Union City at work.
I have to agree with the girl on this one, why in God's name would he keep eating a burger he obviously didn't like? I would think this is one of those common sense cases.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
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