This is topic The Official Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Discussion and Spoiler Thread in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
It's still early, but I remember creating several of the Harry Potter discussion threads on Hatrack for Books five and six, and wanted to keep with tradition. I'm probably going to finish the book Saturday evening or so and be going mad to vent and discuss.
In the meantime, anticipatory posts are welcome. Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I wish I could block this thread so it wouldn't tempt me. Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Best book in the series. The thing that kept upsetting me was that it was too engaging, too interesting. I kept wanting to follow the threads of the stories Harry wasn't directly involved in. But Rowling doesn't do that, does she? I would happily, happily read a book, for example, about Neville and Luna and Ginny and their year at Hogwarts.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Goodness, this book is so "effing" awesome! I'm about page 400...
I do wonder if some have read a bum book. This has 759 pages, but there was nothing about loyal fans in the dedication. Maybe Dagonee meant the acknowledgements. But it's sooooooo awesome.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I also picked four characters who were not to die under any circumstances, but JK Rowling ignored me completely, killed three of them (one of the Weasley twins, Lupin, and Tonks), and continued to dangle the possibility of the last one's dying all through the book (Hagrid). And I was very surprised that Harry didn't end up raising baby Teddy. I thought it was so fitting, what with him being the godfather and with Teddy being Lupin's kid - so I was kind of bummed that didn't pan out.
My little sister was furious that Fred died. She said it was too pointedly senseless and she was not okay with it in any way because he was a twin and that was completely uncool. And I sort of agree - I mean, Mrs. Weasley kicked Bellatrix's arse was very satisfying, but she could have done the same after Percy died; or also George could have interposed himself between Fred and a curse but then both of them die anyway. That would actually have been better for me than both of them dying.
And brave, brave Dobby, and I really cannot believe the series is all over.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
While we all -knew- this book would spill the beans on Snape...did anyone expect to find out Dumbledore had so many skeletons in his closet?
Well played, Rowling. Well played.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:My little sister was furious that Fred died. She said it was too pointedly senseless and she was not okay with it in any way because he was a twin and that was completely uncool. And I sort of agree - I mean, Mrs. Weasley kicked Bellatrix's arse was very satisfying, but she could have done the same after Percy died; or also George could have interposed himself between Fred and a curse but then both of them die anyway. That would actually have been better for me than both of them dying.
I 100% agree. See the other spoiler thread for my thoughts on the one sentence that could be inserted to make this (ARGH) death okay.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:I thought it was so fitting, what with him being the godfather and with Teddy being Lupin's kid - so I was kind of bummed that didn't pan out.
I assume Grandma Tonks did most of the raising. Though Harry Potter and the organic stain removal would make an interesting sequel, as a single young wizard deals with parenthood.
Man, that was good. I was wrong about pretty much everything, except that there was a cat in the Potter Household at the time of their death. And that Harry would pretty much let Voldemort blow him away, and that there would be some reason Dumbledore was so stuck on useless counter curses (because of what happened to Ariana... sigh)
I cried so hard when Ron put his shoes and socks on Dobbie. I cried when Lupin and Tonks were laid out. I cried a bunch of other times. I'm such a baby.
I loved it when Ron comes back and you think Hermione is going to snog him but... ha! And when they all answered simultaneously and differently about the hallows. That was fantastic.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I also would also like to say : "Is Ron der Mensch or what?" That scene was so amazing. All of them. I actually wouldn't have minded if Ron died before this book, but I totally fell in love with him.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Here's my one beef -- Grindelwald stole the Elder Wand. He didn't win it, didn't defeat anyone for it. How could he master it?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
My major complaint - I want to know what the three did in those 19 years! Apparently none of them are at Hogwarts, so what do they do?
I'd like to think that Harry became a Quidditch star and then worked as an unofficial Auror. Any guesses?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Here's my one beef -- Grindelwald stole the Elder Wand. He didn't win it, didn't defeat anyone for it. How could he master it?
Where does it say he didn't fight Gregorovitch?
I don't see any statement that he "just stole it" in the text.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Maybe that he slipped out a window with a grin? But, yeah, I don't know that he ever mastered it. I don't think anyone was really its master until Harry. I'm a little shaky on what exactly happened in that final duel. But I guess that's part of what makes it a Harry Potter book.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It was so good.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
When Voldemort goes into Gregorovitch's memories to find out what happened to the wand, Gregorovitch comes down the hall, opens the door, and sees Grindelwald going out the window. They never fought, and Grindelwald is referred to as "the young thief" or "the blonde thief" until they find out who he is from Skeeter's book.
I don't see any statement that they DID fight in the book, and it certainly strongly implies they didn't.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
But he bested him in a matchup of defenestration skilz.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think a cool spinoff would be Lily II and little Draco. I wonder who Draco married.
Ooooh, Cho Chang. The moral complexities abound...
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: When Voldemort goes into Gregorovitch's memories to find out what happened to the wand, Gregorovitch comes down the hall, opens the door, and sees Grindelwald going out the window. They never fought, and Grindelwald is referred to as "the young thief" or "the blonde thief" until they find out who he is from Skeeter's book.
I don't see any statement that they DID fight in the book, and it certainly strongly implies they didn't.
All we know is what happened up to the point before Voldemort lost patience and decided to just kill Gregorovitch 'cause the guy kept denying he knew who did it. I think it's left open enough that he could have made pursuit and fought with Grindenwald for a bit, but that's just me. Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Draco married Moaning Myrtle.
Hey, mixed marriages aren't discriminated against so much in 2017!
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think you're really reaching, Puffy. Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Think what you like. But like what you think!
Man...if anyone ever told me I'd shed tears over a DOBBY chapter...
I always suspected that if Molly was forced to fight, she'd prove to be one of the deadlier members of the Order.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
When MacGonagal stepped up to defend Hogwarts, I knew that she had once again proven to be the greatest female in the series.
And then when Molly went all kickarse Momma Bear on Bellatrix, the Greatest Female in the series contest became a deadlock. I loved how Molly got that moment.
Some theories that I thought were bunk, like the Horcrux!Harry, turned out to be correct, but it was well-executed enough that I didn't care. I was bawling during the chapter where Harry is going to his death, looking like a mess to my not-as-far-in-the-book roommate. And I'm glad they didn't *really* bring back Dumbledore, except through memory and Harry's unconscious.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Yeah, Molly's homage to Aliens was pretty funny.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I was amazed at some of the correct theories:
Snape in love with Lily. Snape and Lily were BFFs before Hogwarts. Harry is a Horcrux.
Wow. Amazing, and very well handled.
I cried in several places:
Dobby. I cried like crazy. That was one of the most wonderful escapes in all of literature, and I love how Dobby died a hero. Perfect.
Lupin and Tonks. Holy crap. He just mentioned that he saw them laid out there with the dead and I had to read it three times before I would believe it. I thought of their little son and cried the most of all. It was just that little paragraph, but it slayed me, and still brings tears to my eyes when I think of it now.
When McGonagal stepped up and pulled them all together and every time someone said "We're going to fight," I pretty much lost it. All the scenes in the Room of Requirement when more and more people showed up, they were lovely.
I cried during the scene where Harry used the Resurrection Stone to talk to his parents, Sirius, and Lupin before he went to his own death. So wonderfully done. My only complaint was that I wish Snape would have been included in that final huddle, as he was so brave and so instrumental in Harry's survival up to this point.
And Snape. I cried throughout the chapter where JKR unfolded his story. At the end, when he admits to caring about Harry and realizes that Harry has to die...and then when Snape himself is almost dead and grabs Harry by the collar. *sniffle* Excellent. It was more tenderly handled than I could have imagined.
I laughed like a lunatic:
When Hermione kissed Ron because she thought his concern for the House Elfs was so sexy. Perfect.
When Kreacher came tearing through the door with all of the house elfs to help win the fight at Hogwarts.
I was at the edge of my seat:
During that first amazing scene where they escape with the dopplegangers. Amazingly executed scene. I can't WAIT to see that on film.
When they robbed Gringotts! Hello!!!
That whole time they were in the Malfoy's house. That was probably the most stressful time of the book for me, which is why Dobby's death was so emotional.
The Battle of Hogwarts. I think it's one of the best written climax sequences I've ever read. I love seeing McGonagal charging around the corner with all of those desks. I got tears in my eyes when she called the suits of armor to action in defense of the castle. I got chills when she split everyone up and gave them all places to defend. It was so freaking...heroic. And not cheesy. I would have pulled out my own wand and run to help if given the chance.
So yeah. I liked the book. Pardon the incoherency, but I'm still digesting it. Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I feel the need to reiterate my undying love for McGonagall yet again. Favourite. Teacher. Ever.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Snape's character arc was exactly what I had predicted (although I hadn't expected him to have been friends with Lily even prior to Hogwarts- that was a really nice touch), but that didn't make it any less AWESOME. I wish he'd had a less anticlimactic death, though. The whole Snape flashback, although narratively clumsy, worked really well for me emotionally.
Loved that Dumbledore is given some depth. He's not just the super wizard of love, he's the super wizard of Machiavellian love!
Hermoine and Ron took longer to actually coalesce than I expected, but the moments leading up to the kiss (and Harry's reaction during/afterward) were hilarious.
Boo to Ginny. SERVES NO PURPOSE. GO AWAY.
Luna still rocks. The bit near the end where she understands that Harry needs to get away from all the post-Voldy-Boom attention was adorable.
I liked that Rowling was willing to take some well-loved, well-established characters in some new directions- not just Dumbledore's scheming, but Lupin's meltdown, as well.
I enjoyed the impish Tonks of OotP, but found her scant appearances in Deathly Hallows very dull. I was sad about Lupin's demise, but Tonks... meh.
George losing his ear was painful and amazing. Unfortunately, I thought Fred's death went by too fast to elicit much response. Sad that the best comedy duo in the Potterverse is permanently silenced, though.
The whole chapter in which Harry marches off to certain death was fantastic. Gut wrenching stuff.
The whole "Harry, Ron, and Hermione hiding in the forest" plot got tiresome. It felt like an unwelcome return to the Angst-o-riffic Harry of OotP.
Incredible continuity throughout. Whoever would've thought that Grindelweld and Griphook, both mentioned only briefly way back in Book 1, would end up playing pivotal roles in the plot of Book 7.
Overall feeling- probably my second favorite after Prisoner of Azkaban.
[ July 21, 2007, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Tarrsk ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Re: digesting it Well that's one way to boost fiber in your diet. I did make it to the dump today, in the middle of it all. But you know, those driving breaks really were nice, I really had some fun thinking about stuff. I thought about how Ron may have always been 2nd or 6th with everything in his life, but he was always #1 with Harry.
P.S. I think Ginny was very important. She and eventually Teddy were the only reasons I really felt hope that Harry was going to live through it all.
The more I think about Dumbledore, the more I realize his trust of himself was as insane as his trust of Snape. Well, now I can start the books over, maybe. What a crazy 6 weeks this has been (when I started "reading" these for the first time.)
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I just finished it moments ago.
I absolutely love the new Kreacher.
Harry's reaction to Ron and Hermione kissing: perfect.
Neville pulling out the sword and killing Nagini, brilliant! (Still a bit confused on that. I assume the sword and the sorting hat were linked so that, no matter where the sword was, if a true Gryffindor reached in they would get it. Does that sound right?)
Harry's death/not-death: perfectly played. One of the few times in any book where I've not understood something at first and was satisfied when I figured it out. Wish Dumbledore had been clearer in his explanation, but I got it so I shouldn't complain.
Question: Who was it that performed magic late in life?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh, yeah, I wondered that driving home from the grocery store. If it was the "magic of love" She may have meant Kreacher.
The idea that came to me as I was clearing my dishes is that this is a story about acceptance vs. resistance. Or at least, I can see how it fits in with my acceptance vs. resistance worldview.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Doing research, Rowling made the "adult doing magic for the first time late in life" statement way back in 1999. Unless I missed it, she perhaps changed her mind about including it.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
The huddled figure in Harry's limbo/train station, would that be the portion of Riddle's soul that was in Harry?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm pretty sure, yeah. I wasn't too comfortable with that whole idea. Well, I don't think it was the portion, I think it was what his actual soul was, and a large part of the reason Harry went back was to offer him the chance to feel some remorse, which, of course, he thought sounded stupid.
I guess it's important to remember that it was Harry's perception of things. I mean, if Voldemort had a memory of being a flayed little bundle, he might have felt some remorse when he regained consciousness.
P.S. I was just getting into the killing/soul tearing stuff on the predictions thread at the writer's workshop when folks started "going dark" (ah, irony). We had been arguing the morality of any kind of killing in the Wizarding world. I had mentioned that killing isn't always the same as murder, and that a horcrux was a way of preventing the soul from healing after killing tears it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I really loved that Neville played such a heroic role, and him winding up a Professor at Hogwart's - perfect. And his Gran - I teared up when Neville said he was his parents' son. I've always had a soft spot for Neville.
I must say, I am slightly disappointed. His marching to his death was noble, and beautiful and I would have liked that to have been the end. I would have liked him to have killed Voldy with his death and then been reunited with his parents and Sirius and Dumbledore. I envisioned him looking back, worrying about Ginny, but maybe seeing Neville comforting her and knowing they would all be all right - then the epilogue chapter where Neville and Ginny's son Harry gets on the train.
But, this ending was okay, felt a little bit of a let down for me, but still a good book. I too am in awe of Rowling's foresight and skill at weaving so many things together. Having Malfoy be the true master of the wand, that was a nice touch.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I won't go as far as to say I would have liked it to be the end. After all, my 10 year old is going to read this book. I think it's like a thestral, visible in relation to one's familiarity with death. And seeing that as the true end of the book, I don't worry as to whether that has to be the end for everyone.
I liked the last chapter because it put Harry right at my age.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I felt that the end was missing a chapter so strongly that I today I have spent quite a few hours writing a chapter to fit right before the epilogue. A chapter 36 and three quarters.
It covers all the stuff I thought got a bit shafted- largely, the end of the school theme. I think it actually provides much more of a cushion, because it allows for the dead to be buried and the leaving to reestablish what they have, soemthing that I thought was drastically lacking. In all the other books, and for all the other deaths or encounters, there's a considerable amount of time spent on dealing with the death but at the end of this book, when we need it most, it's not there.
Now I've added it in. It's not seamless or wonderful or anything, but I like the book considerably more with my extra chapter in it .
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
During that last chapter (the Epilogue doesn't exist for me), I was waiting for Harry to stop, shake his head and say "You got me monologuing!"
Oh, well.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I won't go as far as to say I would have liked it to be the end. After all, my 10 year old is going to read this book.
And, unfortunately, I get the feeling the ending was contrived to please a legion of 10 year olds instead of being the true ending the saga required. At least that's how it feels to me, because the cheerful ending just doesn't seem right.
I almost get the feeling Rowling capitulated and gave in to make everyone feel better. I mean, imagine if Tolkien decided Frodo should get a happily ever after, had him settle down in the Shire, get married, and live a full rewarding life? The tale would have lost some of its richness, beauty and power. One of the reasons it's so epic and grand and lasting is precisely because Sauron's defeat came at so dear a cost.
I mean, the chapter where Harry is walking to his death, asking if it will hurt even as he knows it's childish for him to ask it, and getting reassured by Sirius that it's easier than falling asleep - Lily's promise that she'll be with him - that was great stuff. Lovely, riveting, well written - beautiful. And then, he gets to come back and he kills Voldemort by having Voldy try to kill him and the curse rebounds - like none of us saw THAT coming! It's as if Harry's march to his death was reduced to Rowling saying "Psych!" to her readers. She gifted him with true nobility and courage - everything a Gryffindor should be - then took it away by making the sacrifice virtually meaningless. Sure, I know, he had to let Voldy destroy the last remaining horcrux within himself, yeah, yeah I got it. I got it. But, the fact remains, that what should have been a heroic end was just one step in an abominably LONG list of steps, I might add, all for us to end up where we knew we'd be all along - with Voldemort killing himself.
Now, as I prepare to duck the flames that will be hurled my way, let me add that part of me did like the ending, because I like Harry and a big part of me did want to see him happy. I just think the story was best served by having the demise of Voldemort brought about by a much bigger sacrifice. Yes, we lost Lupin and Tonks and Fred, but the story was never really about Lupin, Tonks and Fred. It was about Harry, and his two closest friends and something more should have been required of them to defeat this enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I still think it's an amazing series, however, and I've begun reading the entire series aloud to my three younger children. I have no doubt they will like the ending when we finally get to it, but for me, it was a bit disappointing.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I think a depressing ending would've been the true indulgent and immature ending.
Call that a "flame" if you want.
Yeah, there are people who end up broken after traumatic events...but some of those people do heal and find joy in real life. Why not in fiction? Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I agree with what you're saying Belle. But, at the same time, I've been reading a lot of Stephen King lately...so it's nice to see a happy ending.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I think a depressing ending would've been the true indulgent and immature ending.
Call that a "flame" if you want.
Yeah, there are people who end up broken after traumatic events...but some of those people do heal and find joy in real life. Why not in fiction?
Well, then we differ in what we call depressing. I don't see an ending such as I described - Harry nobly sacrificing himself to save the people he loves on earth and in doing so, being reunited with the loved ones he's lost - as depressing.
And I don't see where I suggested people don't heal and find joy after tragedy? Of course they do, and the epilogue I imagined would have shown exactly that. But no matter, obviously my imaginary ending is just that - imaginary, so we'll just leave it at the fact that I would not have ended the series the way Rowling did. But, I'm not Rowling, as any glance at my bank account balance will prove. I'm just a (slightly) disappointed fan.
While I'm getting my flame proof armor ready, did anyone else feel this book was at least 200 pages too long? I mean, truly it should have been condensed some.
And Javert, you've been reading Stephen King while I'm been studying Shakespearean tragedy. So, maybe we're both influenced by what we've been reading lately.
Like I said, I don't necessarily HATE the ending. A big part of me enjoyed the happy ending, I just didn't think the previous six books set up for this happy ending. Then again, this book is ostensibly for kids, not for me. (though I think it's a mistake to assume that kids always need happy endings as well)
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Does giving him what he craved so much from the Mirror of Erised all the way back in Book One really reduce the nobility and beauty of anything he did?
Edit to add: You're reading the wrong series if you're worried about page length. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Puffy I didn't see your post when I replied above, I've edited it to include a response to your points, I didn't want you to think I wasn't answering you.
But now I must be off to bed...I've wasted an entire day reading when I should have been working on a paper so I've got a long day ahead.
Page length doesn't concern me, BTW, I love Tolkien and George R.R. Martin, after all - unnecessary page length that just feels like so much needless bloat does.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I agree with Belle, simply because I felt like allowing Harry to live was something like a bait and switch. I was so ready for Harry to die and stay dead (since she spent a long time convincing us that that's what was going to happen) that none of the following really resonated with me. I was surprised, and I guess I wasn't sure if I could trust her. For want of a better expression.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Rowling has a tendency in this series (I'm assuming she will continue to write) to present red herrings; convince the readers of one set of facts, then change it at the last minute. Snape is the obvious example, as we see this played out in the first novel, but also throughout the arc if the last few books. Sirius' guilt is another. The assumption that Slugworth would teach DADA. Moody as Crouch. The list goes on.
So the more time Rowling spent talking about Harry's impending death, the more I became convinced that Harry would live.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
I've been on the same page with the Harry staying dead thing.. but looking back on it again- Dumbledore already died for us, y'know? - and Harry one-upt him by sacrificing himself even though there wasn't a death already waiting for him.
It was beautiful.
The only reason I push on the extra deaths is because I felt like there should've been more, in a realistic view. More people should've died because more people would've died.
el pep
Edit: I just feel like there was a dish of 'authors protection' served with the book.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
--- Other wonderful moments:
Harry berating Lupin for abandoning his family. (heart-wrenching)
Kreacher and his locket.
Dobby's exit. (the stars reflecting in his eyes that he'd never see)
Snape vs. Professor McG
Ron going crazy as Hermione is tortured.
Neville and his Room of Requirement.
George and his 'holiness' moment.
The scary dark room of exploding hot gold.
All the mannerisms of the Malfoys. Terrified for their family and nothing else.
Dudley. oh Dudders.. "but.. where is he going?"
Dumbledore in a mess, admitting potter was the better man..
The Death Eaters at the wedding. The mental image of them all standing outside of Sirius' house.
Ron and the Snogging Horcrux-buddies..
- I could go on..
Gorgeous book. Well played JK.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
LOVED IT. So many memorable moments. But my favourite part was Snape. It was only when I was reading his memories scene and realised that he was in love with Lily that I really felt for him. And then rereading his death scene and Snape asking Harry to look at him because he always did have his mothers eyes.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
thought the pettigrew thing would've been more important. - but mannnn did he go and get himself strangled! - that was intense! who ever would've thought that Ron's rat would end up like that.. intense.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:I almost get the feeling Rowling capitulated and gave in to make everyone feel better. I mean, imagine if Tolkien decided Frodo should get a happily ever after, had him settle down in the Shire, get married, and live a full rewarding life? The tale would have lost some of its richness, beauty and power. One of the reasons it's so epic and grand and lasting is precisely because Sauron's defeat came at so dear a cost.
I would have loved such an ending. What could be better than having kids? A family, a new start? That would have been much more satifying to me because it says we've defeated the worse evil of our time, we've head it back, now new life can begin and it can grow up safe. Really I'd rather Sauron or Voldermort pay the price that the heroic brave main character.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
But it would have made it......trite, IMO. Evil can be beat, but the cost is so high that neither side really wins, IMO. Not completely.....because even after evil is gone, what it has done to you, and your loved ones, still matters, and still hurts.
Ask the family of a Holocaust survivor. Winning was much, much better than losing for them, but no one got off scott free, and not everyone healed well.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Well, true. But I don't think everyone does walk away scott free in the book. Just because the main characters didn't die, doesn't mean they haven't had huge losses. but you know that.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I liked the ending and the epilogue. I'm very glad Harry didn't die permanently. Heroic and tragic, yes, but I prefer the idea that evil can be defeated and life can go on afterward.
I'm not surprised that folks came up with theories that turned out to be correct. With all the theories that have been flying around since the end of HBP, at least some of them were likely to turn out to be correct.
I ...like? approve of? the resolution of Snape's character. I like that Dumbledore had major faults. I have to think about the rest, though, for a while longer.
Posted by heifertipper (Member # 10612) on :
I agree with believing the book better because of its happy ending. Harry wouldn't be the "boy who lived" if Voldemort killed him in the end. I think if Harry would have died, the whole legend of Harry Potter would have lost the hope it engendered.
I was flat out crying during the Prince's Tale. I knew it was coming, because Snape loving Lily would have been the only reason Dumbledore would have believed Snape was trustworthy. Ha, Voldy was once again thwarted by love. I knew he loved her, but I was happy to see that they were best friends as well. I always thought it would be more one sided than it really was. Yeah JK.
I thought the end, when Harry was monologuing, to be a bit much, but I don't know how else JK could have handled it. I think everyone needed to know that Voldy's second hand man was Harry's biggest ally, especially Voldemort. His lack of understanding love did him in. He should have realized that Snape would be his biggest enemy once he killed Lily.
I knew one of the twins would die, and I think it is only because I have a twin sister and it would be the biggest tragedy I could think of if I lost her. Fred and George were so close. I was extremely afraid for Molly W. because I thought her death would be the most tragic for the Weasly family. She was the glue and I almost had a heart attack when she decided to take on Bellatrix.
Did anyone else feel this book to be the heaviest of the seven? I felt like the suspense never stopped. It was one thing after another. I was emotionally drained when I finished.
I wish someone would have offed Umbridge. I think I would have killed her myself for mounting Moody's eye on her door. She has to be evilest character in the book save Voldemort. Bellatrix was just plain insane so I don't count her.
I loved Kreacher's transformation, it was nice to see what happens when he felt wanted. It sounded like Regulus was a better man than Sirius. I agreed with JK when she said "it is how you treat the people below you that shows your true character", and Regulus loved Kreacher. I do wonder why Kreacher didn't apparate Regulus out of there. He obviously could take people with him and Regulus only needed water, a side effect that Kreacher should have been prepared for.
Ron and Hermione were great, I hope they keep the part where she beats on him in the movie. The best part was when Hermione screamed " I begged you to come back but you didn't". It was heart wrenching. I think it will be great to see. Their first kiss (I think it was their first kiss) was hilarious, especially Harry's reaction.
Needless to say, I loved this book. The only thing I would have wanted was a little more back ground information on what happened afterward. Did the trio go back to school the next year? What do they do for a living? Where is Luna and the rest of the Weasly's. I kind of feel like JK set it up to do more books if she wanted to. There is still a lot of questions she could answer.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: Question: Who was it that performed magic late in life?
That would be Merope Gaunt, back in Book 6.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
I think the reason Kreacher didn't apparate Regulus out of there was because he was following his orders to a T, and couldn't have known if Regulus would want him to interfere or not.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pepek: I think the reason Kreacher didn't apparate Regulus out of there was because he was following his orders to a T, and couldn't have known if Regulus would want him to interfere or not.
Also, compared to what Voldy would do to him, maybe Regulus preferred the Inferi.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
What an intense ride. It did seem much more suspenseful. But maybe its because I read it all in one sitting (okay I took a break about 3/4ths of the way through to get some ice cream with my hubby - I needed a break!). I loved it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
One thing that I would liked to see in the epilogue was Uncle Dudley showing up to help send his favorite nephew off to Hogwarts.
---
Should Harry have died? I don't think so. I haven't fully thought this out, having just finished the book, but his willing sacrifice followed by his return to life fit the series for me. I'm going to throw out some thoughts on why.
I understand the dying/gravely wounded hero thing, but I honestly believe that this was a better fit for the series and it was well within the rules.
Some times you do get to go home again. Some times the hero lives. Johnny comes marching home again. This is especially true when the hero is really just a kid. This was Harry's (and the other kids) graduation book (and many of the adults redemption book).
Harry's life was pretty bad. He was able to get little pockets of good stuff, but they kept getting taken away. There was a deliberate paralleling between him and Voldemort. Ultimately, it came down to love. Harry, despite it all, developed and maintained the ability to love, something that Voldemort never understood. It stymied him (V) at every turn - with Lily's protect, with Snape, with Dumbledore, and, at the end, with Narcissa's love of her son getting her to hide that Harry was alive.
Harry could have gone the same way, but didn't. Even his choice to return back to life was motivated in large part out of love (actually, thinking about it, I wish JKR had played up the "Harry's going to heaven" thing in a similar manner to the 6th season of Buffy, making it look like returning to the world where he was in tremendous pain and danger looked more like another big sacrifice).
Love can make you vulnerable. It can make you weak and cause you to do things that are against your short-term self interest. But the rewards (rewards that aren't avaiable or even understandable to the power seeking isolates like Voldemort) can be great. Harry is shown getting those rewards in the end, but only because he was willing to give up everything for the love that made them possible.
That works for me. And, as I said, I think it fits the series better than if he died.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I think a depressing ending would've been the true indulgent and immature ending.
I think the problem with the happy ending is not the details that are given to us but that it didn't deal with any of the issues. For instance: What happens to George? Who brings up Ted? What about the funerals? What about a memorial? Who cleans up Hogwarts?
JK avoided these, ending with only the happy pieces (a celebration, a moral choice, two marriages and children). I think that the actual ending wasn't particularly overwhelmingly happy, just that, for some reason, she chose not to deal with the darker issues that, for many of you, would make it more realistic. (Especially considering how obviously the attack on Muggle-borns is linked to the attack on Jews during WWII).
This is my problem with the ending because instead of making the ending easier to deal with, I found it harder, because nothing was ever actually said. I think JKR was trying to give it a happy ending for the children (think of the children!), but for an adult or older person it seems unbelievable.
Hence my need to write another chapter to both provide further details and to delve a little further into the darkness of the ending, thus providing more of a slope from intense evil to "nineteen years later" where wounds have healed and families formed.
Also, about "nineteen years later": Notice that scene is written in a very light (for lack of a better word) manner, as if the narration is just skimming the top. Very few emotions are noted; when they are they are put in an eleven-year-old, glowy, innocent, way. I'm sure JKR did that on purpose, showing us merely the edge of a moment that says 'and they lived happily ever after'.
For a child, that is the most glorious thing ever, for an adult, the naivite of it only makes us wonder.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
The one thing that I really, really wish she had done is talk about Fred in the epilogue. It could have been really brief - just something to indicate that, say, George had carried on with Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes but provided some kind of memorial to Fred. I love Fred and George. Ever so much.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I must say, I am slightly disappointed. His marching to his death was noble, and beautiful and I would have liked that to have been the end. I would have liked him to have killed Voldy with his death and then been reunited with his parents and Sirius and Dumbledore. I envisioned him looking back, worrying about Ginny, but maybe seeing Neville comforting her and knowing they would all be all right - then the epilogue chapter where Neville and Ginny's son Harry gets on the train.
I think if it had ended like this, I would've been really, really angry.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
I completely disagree that the ending is childish / incomplete / insufficiently deep.
To me 19 Years Later reads, "and life, ordinanry life went on". I also liked it ending on platform 9 and 3/4 as that is where it all started.
It's not important to me that it is all resolved, life so rarely is, and it is not important to me that they lived happily ever after, I just want to know that they lived and glad to know that they managed to live without shadows.
I suspect she toyed with killing Harry and actually couldn't bring herself to do it and if I'm honest, I think we got off lightly.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Also : The bit that filled me with dread was the idea that Snape was shown to be the hero he was and that Harry would die without having passed that info on .... I was sooooooo worried.
Posted by aretee (Member # 1743) on :
quote: Did anyone else feel this book to be the heaviest of the seven? I felt like the suspense never stopped. It was one thing after another. I was emotionally drained when I finished.
My step-daughters finished hours before I did. I wanted to be alone when I finished for the exact reason you stated above. I knew I would be drained at the end and I didn't want to talk about it. I finished at 5am, logged on to Hatrack and read some threads about it. Updated my myspace (to let my friend know I was finished and to call me when she is through), and then just sat and thought about it. Even when we were driving to church this morning I didn't want to talk about it too much.
This is a series I will probably re-read non-stop for the rest of my life. One year: Tolkein, Next year: Rowling, Next year: CS Lewis, repeat.
*sigh*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I completely disagree that the ending is childish / incomplete / insufficiently deep.
What I meant was childlike, not childish- as is the first book. One is derogatory, the other is not.
I think that the book was complete but the series was not. There were themes in the series that never got (for me) satisfactory closure in the book. If it had been just a book, I would require only one sentence about "Uncle George" to make it complete.
Posted by heifertipper (Member # 10612) on :
quote:My step-daughters finished hours before I did. I wanted to be alone when I finished for the exact reason you stated above. I knew I would be drained at the end and I didn't want to talk about it. I finished at 5am, logged on to Hatrack and read some threads about it. Updated my myspace (to let my friend know I was finished and to call me when she is through), and then just sat and thought about it. Even when we were driving to church this morning I didn't want to talk about it too much.[/QB]
Exactly. My sister and I were only about twenty pages apart so after we finished we just sat there, staring at each other, not saying much. I felt like I had run a marathon.
quote:I think the reason Kreacher didn't apparate Regulus out of there was because he was following his orders to a T, and couldn't have known if Regulus would want him to interfere or not.
Yeah, you are probably right. I guess I would have thought Regulus would have asked more questions of Kreacher about his experience in the cave so he would have known what to expect, and would have been able to tell Kreacher specifically what he needed to do. House elves are awesome, I was wondering who had gone with Regulus to cave because he obviously could not have done it by himself and I had guessed that Kreacher was probably keeping it safe, but I had no idea it was Kreacher who had helped him get the necklace. So cool.
[ July 22, 2007, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: heifertipper ]
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Well, I expected to take until mid-week to finish but I'm done. I'm exhausted. What a roller coaster! I gasped and shouted and cheered and cried...what a powerful book. I'm still letting it all sink in.
She took her gloves off for this one. It did not feel at all childish, and it wasn't just the death, although there was a lot of that.
I'm left with just a few things...
1. The blood Voldemort took from Harry and somehow it saved him in the end...I don't get it. I'm going to reread it after I get a good night's sleep and see if I can't make more sense of the explanation, but right now it just sounds like so much gibberish.
2. Who was the person who would do magic late in life under extraordinary circumstances? I swore this was something Rowling herself put out there but as it didn't happen (that I noticed...and I thought I read every word) I'm wondering if I got tricked into thinking a rumor was the truth.
3. I was a bit let down by the epilogue. We didn't learn anything about the futures of the characters, really. We knew Harry would marry Ginny and have children, but what did he end up doing? I also found myself missing a sense of how the dramatic last scene affected the Potter-mystique.
Anyway, the rest will have to wait until I get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow I'm getting a copy on audio CD and listening to it again. (My husband read it to me this weekend.)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by firebird: Also : The bit that filled me with dread was the idea that Snape was shown to be the hero he was and that Harry would die without having passed that info on .... I was sooooooo worried.
I know. That would have sucked! I really wish she'd write a book about Snape because he's soooooooo fascinating. I just love the way she shapes these characters, the way they are imperfect, the way the good guys have a bit of bad in them, the bad characters some strains of good. I think that's what makes me like her books so much.
Also, I like the way the book ended all sweet and innocent because that's how it began! Harry was abused, lost his parents, but he still was good natured and hopeful. It makes sense for the book to end the same way, with a new generation of kids who don't have to live with the evil of Voldermort hanging over their heads.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote: While I'm getting my flame proof armor ready, did anyone else feel this book was at least 200 pages too long? I mean, truly it should have been condensed some.
Not even a little bit! Actually, I wouldn't have minded another 50 pages tying up a couple of additional lose ends. I thought that almost every moment swept me up and I can't even see how they'll condense it to fit into a movie. Yeah, it was a *little* slow during their forest wandering, but even that seemed necessary to me.
As to the Harry living or dying thing...I never expected him to die. To me, the prophecy was clear...ONE of them would die. Plus, while it was clear that she put the fear in us that she could kill him, the dramatic tension was all in the possibility, not in the fulfillment. As Harry walked to his death, I knew there would be a reprieve -- although I didn't expect the form. I actually thought after Hermione read about Horcruxes, that maybe he would somehow use their connection to make Voldy feel remorse. Oh well, it was a thought. Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Voldster didn't seem to be very surprised when Harry wasn't dead again.. I suppose he got use to being a failure in that area..
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Boy, it was a field day with the people that work at the EB around the corner.
I've never read any books and saw only the first movie, but there was one girl there that was such an easy target, and the store manager and one other guy were torturing her so...
Guy in store: "Well... I don't want to reveal more than you already know. But I do think Voldemont's make out scene wasn't necessary."
Manager: "You kidding? It establishes Hermione's state of mind! She wouldn't have... er... did what she did hadn't she enjoyed him so. Caught Harry by surprise when he wasn't looking, didn't it? By the way... that must have hurt... 'til the end, of course..."
Girl: "STOP! STOP IT! STOP!"
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Question: The HP series is over. If Rowling were to write another book/series, would you prefer:
1: A book centering around other charcters in the HP universe that: a) Knew Harry and/or played a central role in the HP heptalogy. b) Played very minor roles in the Harry potter books. c) Have nothing or little to do with HP, and take place in the same universe but in a different time a/o place.
2: A fantasy book/series centered in a completely new universe completely seperate from the HP series.
3: Non fantasy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
FToaS, maybe start another thread for that question? It's a good one, and I think it might get buried in this thread.
I finished the book, I've mostly stopped crying, I've read the thread. Now to write a post! Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
I thought it was obvious that Harry and Ginny raised Teddy Lupin- Harry's the godfather, and didn't they say, "OUR Teddy?!" when someone caught him making out with someone else?
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: FToaS, maybe start another thread for that question? It's a good one, and I think it might get buried in this thread.
Right, because we need another HP thread.
*does what rivka says, sulkily*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
[Warning: Long, and because y'all had a 20(+)-hour headstart on me, much of it is agreeing or disagreeing and not much more.]
Yup! I even remember thinking, "Who was it who predicted that?"
quote:Originally posted by Fyfe: And I was very surprised that Harry didn't end up raising baby Teddy. I thought it was so fitting, what with him being the godfather and with Teddy being Lupin's kid - so I was kind of bummed that didn't pan out.
Agreed! I completely expected him to have been raised by Harry and Ginny, and NO, coming round for dinner four times a week and snogging Victoire (whose daughter was she, btw?) does NOT do the trick.
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: did anyone expect to find out Dumbledore had so many skeletons in his closet?
No! And that was marvelous -- made him a far more 3-d character.
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I cried a bunch of other times. I'm such a baby.
Me too!
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: My major complaint - I want to know what the three did in those 19 years! Apparently none of them are at Hogwarts, so what do they do?
Agreed!
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I'd like to think that Harry became a Quidditch star and then worked as an unofficial Auror.
Works for me. What we know he didn't do is become a teacher at Hogwarts -- or if he did, he had left the post by the time his kids were students there.
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: When Voldemort goes into Gregorovitch's memories to find out what happened to the wand, Gregorovitch comes down the hall, opens the door, and sees Grindelwald going out the window. They never fought, and Grindelwald is referred to as "the young thief" or "the blonde thief" until they find out who he is from Skeeter's book.
I don't see any statement that they DID fight in the book, and it certainly strongly implies they didn't.
Maybe that's why Dumbledore was able to defeat him? Because Grindelwald indeed had not mastered the wand?
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet: Some theories that I thought were bunk, like the Horcrux!Harry, turned out to be correct, but it was well-executed enough that I didn't care.
Exactly! I went, "No!?! Really!?" but by a few sentences later, it was ok.
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: I was amazed at some of the correct theories:
Snape in love with Lily. Snape and Lily were BFFs before Hogwarts. Harry is a Horcrux.
The first I had no trouble believing beforehand. The second I thought was possible but unlikely, but was perfectly happy to be proven wrong. The third . . . well. No one but Rowling could have sold me on that one, and I barely bought it from her.
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: Lupin and Tonks. Holy crap. He just mentioned that he saw them laid out there with the dead and I had to read it three times before I would believe it. I thought of their little son and cried the most of all. It was just that little paragraph, but it slayed me, and still brings tears to my eyes when I think of it now.
Yes! Poor little baby boy, ANOTHER baby left without either parent. And while I accept Lupin’s death (it made a lot of sense, in several different ways), there was no point to Dora’s. She didn’t have that close a relationship with Harry (as evidenced by her not showing up with the other Dead People), and it’s not like it was an excuse for Harry to raise Teddy, because he didn’t! I’m not a big fan of the “women stay at home with the kiddies” thing in general, but she really SHOULD have. Poor Teddy!
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: I cried during the scene where Harry used the Resurrection Stone to talk to his parents, Sirius, and Lupin before he went to his own death.
*nod nod sniffle*
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: The Battle of Hogwarts. I think it's one of the best written climax sequences I've ever read. I love seeing McGonagal charging around the corner with all of those desks.
Yes! They’d better have that in the movie!
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: Boo to Ginny. SERVES NO PURPOSE. GO AWAY.
*hiss*
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: Luna still rocks. The bit near the end where she understands that Harry needs to get away from all the post-Voldy-Boom attention was adorable.
Agreed! Luna was marvelous, and her yellow-loving (*snicker*) dad was pretty good too.
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I really loved that Neville played such a heroic role, and him winding up a Professor at Hogwarts - perfect.
Agreed!
I disagree with you on the ending, though. If he really had died, THAT would have been the overdone cliche. Having to come back and deal with life -- messy and painful though it often is -- was much better.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: So the more time Rowling spent talking about Harry's impending death, the more I became convinced that Harry would live.
Agreed.
quote:Originally posted by heifertipper: I knew it was coming, because Snape loving Lily would have been the only reason Dumbledore would have believed Snape was trustworthy.
Yup, definitely.
quote:Originally posted by heifertipper: I loved Kreacher's transformation, it was nice to see what happens when he felt wanted.
*nod nod*
quote:Originally posted by heifertipper: The only thing I would have wanted was a little more back ground information on what happened afterward. Did the trio go back to school the next year? What do they do for a living? Where is Luna and the rest of the Weasly's.
YES!
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: One thing that I would liked to see in the epilogue was Uncle Dudley showing up to help send his favorite nephew off to Hogwarts.
That would've been nice, but I'm not sure how believable. Having Dudders turn out to have some cousinly feelings was awesome -- but I'm not convinced it would have led to a relationship of any real depth.
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Harry is shown getting those rewards in the end, but only because he was willing to give up everything for the love that made them possible.
That works for me. And, as I said, I think it fits the series better than if he died.
Well put. I agree.
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I thought it was obvious that Harry and Ginny raised Teddy Lupin- Harry's the godfather, and didn't they say, "OUR Teddy?!" when someone caught him making out with someone else?
In that case, why is it clear that Teddy does not live with them, nor has he in the past?
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick: Right, because we need another HP thread.
*LAUGH* Well, true. But I was only looking out for you, no need to sulk. Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Under 'Scenes that made me emotional', Pretty much everybody has listed everything that came to mind...
Except for when Harry got the Gold watch from Mrs. Weasly for his 17th birthday.
That was my one real qualm with Rowling... There should have been an extra chapter at the end. There may have been, and she decided to cut it out and put in the epilogue... I don't know. But I would have liked a broader denounment. Please excuse my spelling.
PS: Does this thread mean that the other HP thread isn't official?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Effin' brilliant.
I could find dozens of little things to pick at, but it seems churlish to do so.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Effin' brilliant.
I could find dozens of little things to pick at, but it seems churlish to do so.
That's my opinion as well.
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
quote: Agreed! I completely expected him to have been raised by Harry and Ginny, and NO, coming round for dinner four times a week and snogging Victoire (whose daughter was she, btw?) does NOT do the trick.
I'm going to assume she is Bill and Fleur's daughter because the name is French.
That being said I thought the ending was great. I just hope Albus Severus ended up in Slytherin.
Posted by heifertipper (Member # 10612) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fyfe: [QB] I so called it.
I just read your theory from May, that was friggin (or as JK would say "effing") ingenious. I specifically remember that conversation with Petunia from the book and knew it was important but automatically assumed she was referring to James. Of course I hadn't read Snape's worst memory yet, so I didn't know he was in love with Lily, but I should have reread that part. That was a great allusion, I wish I would have picked up on it. I think JK was writing #5, trying to determine how many clues she should pop in about Snape before the end. I love how, if you read closely you could tell Snape's worst memory was only talking about his calling Lily a mudblood and had nothing to do with the underpants display. She is really good at giving you key info, if you know how to look.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I think the biggest thing that bothered me about the epilogue is that we didn't find out anything IMPORTANT. Chiefly among these is what the heck are Harry, Hermione, Ginny, and Ron DOING with their lives? Do they all just sit at home and raise their children? The only profession we get any info on is Neville who, strangely enough, is the only one of them employed at Hogwarts. Hermione didn't become a teacher? So they had kids, who still think in terms of houses (so clearly that little prejudicial thinking hasn't been squashed) and who have no idea why every kid on the train is staring at their family? Have they been in hiding all these years?
I also think both Remus' and Tonks' deaths were gratuitous. Rowling had had Harry rail at Remus for abandoning his child to fight, then act annoyed that Tonks is at the battle and not with her son, and then kills them BOTH? And Harry doesn't say one further word about it? At least Harry's parents died trying to protect him, but let me get this straight: no one had a problem with both of little Ted Lupin's parents going to fight in the huge battle, possibly (and in actuality) leaving him orphaned, but Ginny isn't allowed to fight because she's 16?
The wizarding world's priorities are seriously mixed up.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheBlueShadow: I'm going to assume she is Bill and Fleur's daughter because the name is French.
D'OH! Of course! And they could have a daughter in her last year at Hogwarts, while it seemed unlikely of any of the others.
quote:Originally posted by TheBlueShadow: That being said I thought the ending was great. I just hope Albus Severus ended up in Slytherin.
I rather do too.
Oh! And I forgot! My favoritest line(s) in the whole book, and probably in the whole series:
quote:But he was home. Hogwarts was the first and best home he had known. He and Voldemort and Snape, the abandoned boys, had all found home here . . .
That was the point at which I started crying so hard I couldn't read, and therefore started talking to the book. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: and snogging Victoire (whose daughter was she, btw?)
Bill and Fleur. French name.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Harry and Ginny did raise Teddy.
By the time the epilogue took place, he was nineteen years old, a graduate of Hogwarts, and probably living on his own. He probably didn't adjust well considering he was eating four meals a week at Harry and Ginny's house.
That's my theory.
The thing everybody should be mad at is the fact that we don't know whether or not Teddy is a werewolf.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Oh oh oh!!!! Yeah, another thing!
Imagine what kind of life Harry and Ginny led in that long, hard, 19 years raising a Godson at such a young age!
I'm sure the Weasly's came as a great help, especially before Ginny and Harry were married.
Ron and Hermione, of course, helped out, but what kind of Auror would Harry be, what with his Godson at home? And let's face it, he was probably tired of fighting evil, considering he spent the whole of his youth doing so.
So, Harry became a stay at home dad, while Ginny became a famous auror/quiditch player.
At first they didn't make much money (The ministry lacked the power to tax the general wizard population at first, and Ginny wasn't racking in much as an auror), and Harry didn't deem it responsible to spend what savings his parents left him on rent, so, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, and Harry all shared a small apartment for a time, before eventually seperating ways. This was after both couples had their first children, who would not be jealous of their younger sibblings when they came along, for they were used to the presence of another child.
But soon, with a good word from Krum, Ginny found her break and joined the UK Brittish Quiditch team, the very same team that won the Gold Cup twice in a row.
Luna Lovegood married Neville, and while Neville took on teaching Herbology, she taught Care of Magical Teachers. She speciallized in Nargle care.
Draco Malfoy could never quite stop himself from resenting Potter, but he never went out of his way to antagonize him. He married Pansy Parkinson.
Soon, after an Elf rebellion, Hermione Granger negotiated a treaty giving elves the right to use magic, and study at Hogwarts. This bolstered her in the public eye.
Kreacher became the teacher of Elf studies.
Ron followed in his father's footsteps, working alongside his father. Hermione eventually became the first female minister of magic. Percy was her campaign manager.
Harry was often called in to lecture students at Hogwarts, and while he remained actively involved, he never did become a teacher, or headmaster of Hogwarts, although he was offered both positions several times.
George, mourning the loss of his twin, found solace in Cho Chang, and they soon married. With the many funds George's prank business earned him, he and Cho financed the memorial of the Order of the Pheonix, celebrating all of those who had given their lives.
Snape's statue and epitaph in the memorial was right beside Dumbledore's.
Yikes. I got carried away. Honestly, I only meant to write one paragraph.
Oh well. You all may now enjoy my genious.
No need to thank me.
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
Andromeda Tonks probably raised Teddy because at the end of the battle Harry wouldn't have been capable of raising a child. Harry was a big part of his life though and Teddy probably spent a large portion of time with Harry. Hence dinner four nights a week.
We do know that Teddy's a metamorphmagus, right? Wasn't he changing his hair color in his baby photos?
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Meh. I liked the part about Snape, that was about it. The rest was good, it just didn't tickle my fancy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheBlueShadow: Andromeda Tonks probably raised Teddy because at the end of the battle Harry wouldn't have been capable of raising a child.
Very reasonable, if somewhat unsatisfying.
quote:Originally posted by TheBlueShadow: We do know that Teddy's a metamorphmagus, right? Wasn't he changing his hair color in his baby photos?
Yep.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Oh, by the way, did anybody else notice that ALL of James original group died? Sirius, Lupin, James, and Pettigrew?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I put stickies in the book as I went, to remind myself what I wanted to comment on. It's not in front of me right now, so I have a relatively few comments.
I liked Dudley. There's no explanation for his change of heart, given that he was sure Harry had cast a spell on him in book 5, except perhaps Harry's repeated attempts to get them safe in book 7. But I liked it.
Snape. DUH. OF COURSE he was good. It would have been against every narrative convention for him to have been a bad guy all along. The bit about Lily was a nice touch, however. Sad he died so ignominiously.
The afterward. GEEZ. One tiny chapter to tell us what we already knew?! Gah. GAH. WHAT HAPPENED TO EVERYONE ELSE? Did George continue the prank shop, or did he spiral into a deep depression and die a lonely death drowning in a vat of butterbeer? Who was the new Headmaster? WHAT does Harry DO for a living? Does he actually have a job somewhere, or does he rest on his laurels and the lucrative sponsorship contracts? How long does it take to sort out the imperius-cursed Voldy supporters from actual Death Eaters? HOW ON EARTH did Draco escape life in Azkaban? And who guards Azkaban these days, anyway? All the young folks who fought and killed for the first time, how many ended up in St. Mungo's with PTSD? So many questions. Rowling should have taken a page from Eddings, and devoted half a book to wrapping up the loose ends.
One of Harry, Ron, or Hermione (at LEAST one) should have died. Epics don't have happy, cheery endings. The world has been picked up and shaken and some bits have broken and no matter what you do, it's never the same after. The Dark is Rising series had an appropriate ending. It was sad and I hated it, but it was RIGHT.
Posted by heifertipper (Member # 10612) on :
I actually do not think that Ginny and Harry raised Teddy for a couple of reasons. First they were incredibly young and putting that kind of responsibility on a teenager is hard, even if he did agree to be his godfather. Second, I believe it would have been incredibly cruel to take Teddy away from Tonk's mother. She just lost her husband and daughter to the war, he was the only family she had left, and I do not believe Harry would have insisted he raise the child when Teddy had a perfectly capable grandmother to do so.
I was wondering about Luna and Neville for awhile there, but now I kinda think JK was gravitating towards Luna and Dean. There were a couple hints at the end that seemed like it would have gone that way instead. I also think JK would have mentioned Luna, if she was married to Neville. But then again, I find it incredibly strange that she didn't mention Luna in the epilogue. Ehh, that is just my opinion, who knows for sure. Man I wish she would have written a more detailed epilogue.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Duh. Adromeda didn't die.
Another duh for not realizing that a metamorphagus could easily change back into human form, even if it was a werewolf.
This is what you get for typing while the words bypass your brain.
And I call myself a Harry Potter fan.
I'm so ashamed. <Sob> Don't look at me.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Don't forget that people aren't themselves and can't control themselves when they're werewolves.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I think it is possible Harry might have tried raising Teddy. He has a huge house in London and a loyal house-elf to help him, so why not? He would see it as his duty as godfather.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Don't forget that people aren't themselves and can't control themselves when they're werewolves.
But he's not full werewolf, and it isn't clear if werewolves pass on their traits to children.
It is awesome to think of a half werewolf, half metemorphamagi. Maybe he's the first wizard to become an animagus (of a sort) from birth?
Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
I had the craziest HP dream after seeing the movie and re-reading HBP:
Instead of trying to take over the Ministry, Voldemort and the Death Eaters formed a Magical Artists Industry Association and started cracking down on wizards who used the spells other wizards had created, demanding gold every time a copyrighted spell was used. They started pursuing Harry because he had used Snape's spells illegally.
There were doing this whole advertising thing, too, like the RIAA: "Curses aren't the only things that are unforgivable" and "Use a spell illegally, go to Azkaban". Weird.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Well, no offense, but with a name like MoonRabbit, somehow I'm not surprised.
All in good fun. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: Did George continue the prank shop, or did he spiral into a deep depression and die a lonely death drowning in a vat of butterbeer? Who was the new Headmaster? WHAT does Harry DO for a living? Does he actually have a job somewhere, or does he rest on his laurels and the lucrative sponsorship contracts?
quote:Originally posted by MoonRabbit: I had the craziest HP dream after seeing the movie and re-reading HBP:
Instead of trying to take over the Ministry, Voldemort and the Death Eaters formed a Magical Artists Industry Association and started cracking down on wizards who used the spells other wizards had created, demanding gold every time a copyrighted spell was used. They started pursuing Harry because he had used Snape's spells illegally.
There were doing this whole advertising thing, too, like the RIAA: "Curses aren't the only things that are unforgivable" and "Use a spell illegally, go to Azkaban". Weird.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Is there a thread for Deathly Hallow Errors yet?
I was sure in a previous book, Ginny was described as having green eyes, but were referred to as brown in this book.
Collin Creevy wouldn't have been with the Gryffindor's in the great hall and then stayed behind to fight. He would have been gone long before (like Dean) because he was Muggle Born. He'd have had to run for it.
Edit: According to the Harry Potter Lexicon, Ginny's eyes are bright brown. (i.e. I was wrong)
edit for clarity
[ July 23, 2007, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: mimsies ]
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I find myself simultaneously hating and loving the idea of Rowling writing more Harry Potter books.
No need to have any conflict or anything. Just tell us everything that happened after Voldy died, and charm us with the characters' witty banter. Is that to much to ask?
Yes it is.
No it's not.
Yes it is.
Shut up.
You shut up.
You're crazy.
No you're crazy.
*** Edit***
This is my 300th post. Yay me.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Love the Banter. Great idea. You're crazy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm positive that Ginny and Harry raised Ted, because when he was making out with Victoire, who has to be the child of Bill and Fleur, they thought it was gross because they were "cousins," and they would be, though not by blood, because they would be the kids of Bill and Ginny, and thus cousins, but they wouldn't actually be related by blood, so the only reason to call them cousins would be Ted had been raised in the Potter household. I imagine the ages would have matched up nicely too if Victoire had been born not too long after the Battle of Hogwarts.
As for the happy ending, I have zero problem with it, though I too could have done with another 20 pages of explanation, if it meant 20 less pages somewhere else of somewhat lengthy exposition at times.
Maybe the fact that happy endings are so rare in these type of epic works is why it was fulfilling enough. Besides, could anyone really say that Harry DIDN'T pay the price for his eventual happiness? Frodo's life afterwards wasn't all hugs and kisses, but the Shire was rebuilt, his friends went on to lead happy lives, and he left to go over the sea with the Elves, which wasn't an unhappy thing. He suffered throughout his journey, just as Harry did (drastically differently, but still suffering). He led an unhappy life for 17 years before getting what he wanted, though forever robbed of those 17 years. Frodo lived 35 carefree years, suffered one really, really horrible year, and then lived on his life too. I guess the differences in the happy ending just don't seem that far apart to me.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
I have just been on a looong weekend recuperating from my sleepless Potter-filled night, and now I think I've processed things enough to actually type them semi-coherently.
On the most recent subject, I think that at some point, Harry and Ginny do raise Teddy Lupin. Maybe not at first, because they're obviously rather young to do so, but maybe later on. Rowling does point out Harry-as-godfather, and James saying "OUR Teddy", so I think it might have been a bit more than just dinners--Teddy just probably began doing that sometime after he came of age.
The ending was okay. I don't know if the epilogue was necessary, the final chapter would have been a fine ending for me. I think the epilogue was actually rather mature (I had recently reread the series, and comparing it to the earliest books...well. Let's just say there was a reason it took me three months to actually start reading Book 1!) and was an uplifting way to end the series. I do feel, however, that something else is needed. I hope Rowling gets around to compiling a "Potter-pedia" or whatever simply so we find out the fates of the other characters. I didn't really want any more exposition after the climax, but some supplimental material would be nice.
All in all, this book is certainly in my top three favorite Potters. #3 holds a special place in my heart, and I think for me it may always be my favorite. Although I liked #6, I think this one surpassed it. After all, I was finally the same age as book-Harry, 17, and felt a connection more than in any of the previous ones. Sort of made me look over my own life and see it through different eyes. Book 7 is really the end of an era for me that began back when I was eight.
And now I'm all teary-eyed and nostalgic, and I feel ridiculous. Happy, but devastated. And now I'm going to read it for a third time.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Does anyone else find it odd that the sorting hat is the medium for the sword?
Maybe the sorting hat was Godric's? and when they needed a way to sort the incoming students, he enchanted the hat with that ability, passing it down to the headmaster when he left.
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pepek: Does anyone else find it odd that the sorting hat is the medium for the sword?
Maybe the sorting hat was Godric's? and when they needed a way to sort the incoming students, he enchanted the hat with that ability, passing it down to the headmaster when he left.
The Sorting Hat's song from GoF actually says that.
A thousand years or more ago, When I was newly sewn, There lived four wizards of renown, Whose names are still well known: Bold Gryffindor, from wild moor, Fair Ravenclaw, from glen, Sweet Hufflepuff, from valley broad, Shrewd Slytherin, from fen. They shared a wish, a hope, a dream, They hatched a daring plan To educate young sorcerers Thus Hogwarts School began. Now each of these four founders Formed their own house, for each Did value different virtues In the ones they had to teach. By Gryffindor, the bravest were Prized far beyond the rest; For Ravenclaw, the cleverest Would always be the best; For Hufflepuff, hard workers were Most worthy of admission; And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition. While still alive they did divide Their favourites from the throng, Yet how to pick the worthy ones When they were dead and gone? 'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead! Now slip me snug about your ears, I've never yet been wrong, I'll have a look inside your mind And tell where you belong!
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Isn't Ted over 19 years old in the epilogue? Why is he still at Hogwarts?
-----
A few random thoughts, when Harry was walking towards his death and looked at Hagrid's cabin and reminisced a little, that was the saddest moment of the book for me. I wish he thought of his adventures a little more while he was walking. It really put the series in perspective for me.
I loved the scene where Voldemort went to find Grindelwald and Grindelwald mocked him and told him "There's so much you don't understand" just made Voldemort a thousand times better character to me. Hearing those words come from another Dark Wizard just seemed so perfect.
I didn't like all of the times when Harry found out information or found some object that was extremely important to the plot through the luckiest chances. Ted Tonks and Dean walking with two goblins in the middle of nowhere and just happen to mention about the fake sword in Gringotts. Harry tapping into Voldemort's thoughts just as he thinks to himself that the last Horcrux is hidden in Hogwarts. Voldemort hiding the horcrux in the Room of Requirement is also kind of ridiculous. That was Hogwarts deepest secret that he alone had discovered? A random room that anyone can get into? And not a single enchanment protecting the diadem?
Those are nitpicks though. Great story. It's 5 AM, now I'm going to try to go to sleep.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
well then..
that's confirmation if i've ever heard it.
----
and now we await a new epic..
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ted isn't still at Hogwarts, he was at King's Cross. Perhaps Victoire is a couple years younger than him and he was seeing her off to school? Or maybe both of them had graduated and were only there to see other people.
If Harry hadn't of been able to see into Voldemort's mind, or if those happenstance moments had never happened, I can't imagine how they would have advanced the plot.
The Room of Requirement thing seemed a bit goofy. I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier? And there was a crapload of stuff in the Room of Requirement. Considering that school had been around for hundreds of years, and with all the stuff in there, I can't imagine Riddle opens the door, tosses the tiara in there and thinks "Hm, all that stuff must just come with the room as a sort of camouflage." Surely a flag must have gone off in his head somewhere wondering where all that stuff came from, because I don't believe for a moment that it all appears in the 15 or so years since he dropped off the tiara.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Gaal, you're right. Did Voldemort know nothing of Draco's plan in book 6? Draco brought all the death eaters in through the room of requirement.. in the exact same room as the 'die-dum'.
Posted by Scorpio (Member # 9502) on :
I just finished the Prince's Tale. I swear to god, Rowling must have seen the musical "Secret Garden". How else do you explain how the song "Lily's Eyes" was running through my head through the whole chapter?
It is a song about a woman named Lily who died, the two men who loved her (her husband, and his brother Neville whose love was never returned), and how they see that her niece, Mary, has her eyes.
Those eyes that never saw me, Never knew I longed To hold her close, To live at last in Lily's Eyes.
Listen to the song, and you'll see what I mean (although I wish you could hear the version my college choir recorded; I won't say that it's better quality, but it is far less schmaltzy than any broadway version I've heard).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was thinking this morning that it would be interesting to see if Ted and Victoire had some kind of werewolf baby. Sorry if that was already mentioned. Victoire's father was somewhat bitten, and Teddy's father was full-on werewolf.
I'd be sad if Draco married Pansy Parkinson. She was such an unmentionable, and the Malfoys really did have a redemption of sorts. I wouldn't be surprised if Narcissa and Andromeda (Teddy's grandmother) became civil again. The Malfoys clearly were tied to the dark side out of concern for what they thought would be best for their family.
[ July 23, 2007, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*applauds wildly* It was wonderful! She did it! JKR is a fantabulous and I loved every bit of it. I knew, I just knew my trust in her as a writer was right. *still clapping*
quote:snogging Victoire (whose daughter was she, btw?)
Bill and Fleur's daughter, I'll bet. That would make her their cousin.
Potter is a Christ figure. Of course there was a resurrection. I thought it was wonderful.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
On the subject of epilogue -- after sleeping on it last night I have come to the conclusion that the book/series would have been better without it. Since it went 19 years in the future but told us so little, it left gaping holes in the story and in our hearts. If it had just ended with chapter 36 (or whatever) it would have left us free to imagine what happened next, but the story would have been over. It was all leading up to that battle and that really was the end. The aftermath of a battle like that, while fascinating, only became necessary when she skipped us ahead 19 years.
Maybe I'll just skip that part in the future and pretend Harry becomes the new DADA teacher (which I still can't believe didn't happen...I can't htink of any other job he'd be suited to do after what he went through).
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Without the epilogue, Harry would have had to really die in order to give closure to the series. I mean, I guess I can just rip everything after "King's Cross" out of my book and pretend Harry trusted Neville to finish off Nagini.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Ted isn't still at Hogwarts, he was at King's Cross. Perhaps Victoire is a couple years younger than him and he was seeing her off to school?
Indeed. That was stated explicitly.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
quote:snogging Victoire (whose daughter was she, btw?)
Bill and Fleur's daughter, I'll bet. That would make her their cousin.
Thanks. Now that 3 (4?) people have cleared that up, I really feel dumb.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Potter is a Christ figure.
He really wasn't until this book, and it annoyed me greatly. What, is there a RULE that the seventh book of a series I love must have sufficient Christian imagery for me to notice and be disturbed by?
But it was not a huge deal in this book, at least.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Potter is a Christ figure. Of course there was a resurrection. [Smile] I thought it was wonderful.
This doesn't bother you? It does me. I thought about it all day yesterday, and the prophecy of false Christs in the last days deceiving even the elect. What makes it different from Narnia, though, or as I always said, Alvin Maker? Well, for one thing, we've been told Alvin Maker will die die die at the end of the 7th book.
I just wish she hadn't used the word "savior" in that last chapter chapter (not the epilogue.) I don't know, though, I can buy Lily making the Abrahamic sacrifice. I just wish we hadn't gone down this route.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Never mind that last bit. I'm all confused.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Was there any specific Christian imagery? I didn't see it. Is any instance of a hero sacrificing himself and then coming back from it necessarily a reference to Christ? This mythological theme far predates Christianity and here it was established from the first book at part of the rules without any Christian referents.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If you think it is completely coincidence that his Near Death Experience is called "King's Cross", I suppose so.
P.S. Something I keep meaning to discuss is the motif of "treasure". I know there was the inscription on Ariana's grave, and the Ravenclaw motto. Was there a third one, or am I just recalling the first iteration of Ravenclaw's motto with Mr. Lovegood? Xenophilos. I think Rowling might owe Chris Carter a quarter for that one.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Does the Christ imagery bother me? Not at all, and it makes perfect sense. Rowling has been retelling an old tale from the beginning, and there is a long tradition of Christ figures in stories. A modernist ending would have been more surprising - she has never been telling stories Stephen Crane-style.
I certainly don't think she meant it the way C.S. Lewis meant it. It is simply a very old story-telling technique, and she is firmly within that tradition and did a beautiful job of it.
And I am incredibly grateful that she had the guts to actually tell a story. The reason The Sopranos ending was so lame and why the Buffy ending was only okay was because there were so many very important elements "left up to the audience." Come on, David Chase, suck it up, be a man, and actually tell a story that runs the risk of not being the one some people want.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Potter is a Christ figure. Of course there was a resurrection.
I never felt like Potter was a Christ figure. His parents were the Christ figures, if anyone was. Harry was merely a disciple, saved because someone had died for him, following Dumbledore with near-blind faith, only questioning him at moments of deep turmoil. He resurrected because that's what is promised to the faithful. Eternal life. That it was eternal life in the flesh is due to the fact that it's a young adult's book.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Coincidence? The major London train station that was the place where his life with the Dursley's and that at Hogwarts transitioned?
I think if you think that was for the Christ allusion, you're kind of missing the point.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Was there any specific Christian imagery?
I'm not sure. I was REALLY tired by the time I got to the last few chapters. I just remember thinking, "Not again! Not another Aslan!" and resisting throwing the book. A few minutes later I was past that part, and too busy inhaling the remainder.
Maybe when I read it for the second time (probably not for a week or two) I will notice what exactly it was that indicated that to me.
Maybe not. I prefer to ignore small details I dislike in books that I do. Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
He willingly gave his life at the instruction of his father figure for the people he loved. I'm puzzled as to how he wasn't.
I'm not saying it's a perfect one-for-one match - there is more story going on here. However, not dying fit the story and the tradition in which the story is told.\
Mr. Squicky, it is not appropriate to berate fellow posters for not interpreting the story the same way you do. I don't think there's a subject out there more likely to have more than one valid answer than literary interpretation.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Yes, I think that helps explain it a bit better. I agree with :
quote: And I am incredibly grateful that she had the guts to actually tell a story.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Oh, and I really thought the epilogue was perfect, if not deeply satisfying. The reason is because the epilogue is really just the fulfillment of something that was touched on in OotP, when Harry muses about how his life would have been if Neville had been attacked by Voldemort instead of himself. He thinks about a normal life, one where his parents would have brought him to King's Cross. Notice, please, that the epilogue was not focused on James, the older Potter son, but on Albus, Harry's doppelganger. It was there to let us feel and see what Harry's life could have been. It's a gift to Harry, most of all. There's a reason Ginny so resembles Lily and Harry, his father, and Albus, Harry.
Forgot to add: I think that's why their professions aren't mentioned; they don't matter. Neville's is mentioned as an aside in the same way a small child might discuss a professor that he already knows from outside school. You could easily replace "Neville/Professor Longbottom" with "Albus/Professor Dumbledore" or "Remus/Professor Lupin" for a young, unscarred Harry.
[ July 23, 2007, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
JKR was pretty blatant about populating her world with pre/non-Christian mythological elements. It would seem odd to me that she would be consciously trying to create a Christ figure as opposed to tapping into the rich sacrifice/ressurrection motifs that exist outside of Christianity. It's a story that was told in many, many cultures specifically because it resonates deeply with people and carries meaning like that which she was trying to get across.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
His death did not save anyone who was not himself, unless you count Voldemort, who was his greatest enemy and that's very nice except he defends himself from Voldemort in a fatal way shortly thereafter.
I think Harry Potter makes a better Everyman than Christ figure.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Mr. Squicky, it is not appropriate to berate fellow posters for not interpreting the story the same way you do. I don't think there's a subject out there more likely to have more than one valid answer than literary interpretation.
What the crap are you talking about? Berate fellow posters? THe only one I see doing that is you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: Oh, and I really thought the epilogue was perfect, if not deeply satisfying. The reason is because the epilogue is really just the fulfillment of something that was touched on in OotP, when Harry muses about how his life would have been if Neville had been attacked by Voldemort instead of himself. He thinks about a normal life, one where his parents would have brought him to King's Cross. Notice, please, that the epilogue was not focused on James, the older Potter son, but on Albus, Harry's doppelganger. It was there to let us feel and see what Harry's life could have been. It's a gift to Harry, most of all. There's a reason Ginny so resembles Lily and Harry, his father, and Albus, Harry.
Excellent point.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think people consider it to be "Christ-related" because Rowling specifically said that she was a Christian, but she didn't go harping on it because if she did, nearly every reader would be able to figure out the end.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I have never seen that quote - I didn't think Harry was a Christ figure until he willingly walked to his death out of love for his people.
That was actually my first clue that Harry would almost certainly survive.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Coincidence? The major London train station that was the place where his life with the Dursley's and that at Hogwarts transitioned?
She wrote the last chapter first, so it was with the ending in mind that she chose that train station. Just sayin'. I don't think he's an effective Christ figure, but I think there are enough indications there if someone wanted to argue it.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- ''not at all.'' Is she a Christian?
''Yes, I am,'' she says. ''Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.''
Oh, here's the quote for my last comment, just in case.
-Wyman, Max. " 'You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think': Author has frank words for the religious right," The Vancouver Sun (British Columbia), October 26, 2000
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
To me the best indicators of what would happen are the ones that seemed to give opposite impressions to everyone else. When Lupin came in and named Harry godfather, I thought, "Lupin and Tonks die, and Harry lives," and I almost threw down the book because it seemed so obvious. And when Harry found out he had to die, I just ignored it, waiting for the revelation that he would live. I was concerned about my theory when Lupin said Tonks was home with the baby, but I should have known that Tonks wouldn't be able to stay behind. But as far as Harry dying was concerned, I figured the only was Harry could truly die was if he realized that he had to in the midst of the duel, right at the end of the book. He learned about it way too early for it to be real.
I was very happy with the end. I went back and forth, unable to decide if Harry should live or die, and I feel both ideas were satisfied. I felt that Harry HAD to die to fill in the literary picture that Rowling had painted, but I just couldn't figure out how Rowling would pull that off when her hero was in the third-person limited view!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Harry is a Christian too. That's one of the things that brought me around about reading these books, because I used to very much think that the witchcraft made them irredeemable. When they bury Madeye's eye (which can see through the ultimate invisibility cloak, by the way, what the?) they carve a cross over his grave. Black was at his Christening, he has a Godfather. He offers the same sort of vague prayers I would have at his age.
It's a story about courage and love and snogging and getting the Quidditch cup. Why does it have to be more than that? Okay, it's not just that. It's about the desires of our hearts, and our freedom of choice, the power of rememberance, the boundary between heart and mind, the danger of violence, and what binds us to this life. And snogging.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Harry did NOT die...therefore he did NOT come back from the dead...therefore he is NOT a Christ figure.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Not exactly "specific Christian imagery" but the inscriptions on the Dumbledores and Potters graves are both Christian scripture quotes.
I was wondering if some of the non-Christians would be disturbed by what I saw as a sudden and obvious increase of Christian overtones. I did, however, greatly appreciate that Harry's reaction to the aformentioned scriptures was "what's that supposed to mean?"
I do think the idea of Harry dying for his friends making him "the master of death" is sufficiently Christian to be identified and discussed as such.
And, Pooka, Harry specifically tells Voldemort that his spells are lacking effect now precisely because he killed Harry and that Harry's death protected the people he was fighting.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm tending more to think of King's Cross as a dream. But then Harry would not be master of death. Also, why was the flayed huddle in the dream? Was that really Voldemort or not? I think he went to a place where he had a choice whether to die or go back to life. I don't read a lot of near death stuff, but I believe a choice is involved for a fair number of people. I believe the idea was he could choose to go on the journey to where Dumbledore was or go back. The symbolism of King's Cross (apart from the name) is that he'd always thought of Hogwarts as truly his home, but so did Tom Riddle.
The whole thing of being raised by the Dursleys, though... that was troubling. I mean, I guess it was their choice not to love him, or as Dumbledore would have it, damage him with their interpretation of love.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I'm sorry some people severely dislike the "Christ" literary figure, I personally think Jesus was an OK kinda guy.
I didn't mind the Harry "as a Christ" figure motif. I wouldn't call Harry an allegory of Christ, but there were certainly some similarities that cannot be ignored.
1: Harry by dying sets up the ultimate demise of his enemy.
2: Harry comes back ressurected, completely immune to anything Voldemort can throw at him.
3: Harry after dying is at "King's Cross" station. King's Cross hrmm......now perhaps because the actual station is named King's Cross that makes it null and void but why there in the first place?
4: Harry's body is mutilated so as to verify that he was indeed dead.
Mr S:
quote:Is any instance of a hero sacrificing himself and then coming back from it necessarily a reference to Christ? This mythological theme far predates Christianity and here it was established from the first book at part of the rules without any Christian referents.
Do you have any example of this theme predating Christianity? Bear in mind several stories from the Old Testament were specifically told as "types" of Christ's coming.
Also I'll honestly try to abstain from turning this thread into a religious doctrine debate.
edit: People ask why can't Harry Potter just be a story. Well it can, and like all good stories it borrows ideas and reintroduces them diguised in the garb of characters we've never met, yet seem vaguly familiar.
I don't think Harry Potter was written to bring folks to Christianity. But I don't think that elements derived from Christianity corrupt books and make them worse.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:And, Pooka, Harry specifically tells Voldemort that his spells are lacking effect now precisely because he killed Harry and that Harry's death protected the people he was fighting.
Seriously? Seems like they still had to fight pretty hard. I was kind of confused by that point. Did Harry still retain extraordinary powers after Voldemort goes? I don't question something transcendant happened. But I don't know if it was a transcendance meant for only one chosen person.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Umbridgesaur!
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I had actually never read any of these books before two weeks ago, but I've read all seven now, and I am very pleased I did. DH was incredible... I haven't been that enthralled by a book in ages.
I agree that Rowling is probably not only drawing on the Christ story, but on earlier iterations of the Hero's Journey/Monomyth. Those frustrated by coincidences ought to remember that heroes in myth always get some assistence from providential luck...
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Seriously? Seems like they still had to fight pretty hard. I was kind of confused by that point.
He says it as he is in the final duel with Voldemort. No one else knew about it, so they kept fighting as if their lives depended on it. Plus, he only saved them from Voldy, not the Death Eaters.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:I'm sorry some people severely dislike the "Christ" literary figure, I personally think Jesus was an OK kinda guy.
Christ figures in literature are ones who sacrifice themselves. It's the resurrection bit that makes it different. Some folks say every story has a Christ (or Gilgamesh, if you will) figure. To give one's life is the essence of Heroism.
I think it's of more value reflected on a teaching which happens to be Christian of "whosoever would save his life shall lose it" in terms of Voldemort's obsession with not dying. The scene where Harry is digging the grave and the ideas of Horcruxes and Hallows flow back and forth in his mind like the waves was very interesting to me.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Potterchu!
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't mind seeing Christian symbolism in books, but I think it is a mistake to attribute intent to authors. You can find your own meaning in books and that's all right -- that's what's true for you. Personally, I found that this book transcended specific religious dogma but instead idealized the most important elements of many -- love as a conqueror. I suppose to Christians this is Jesus, but I do not believe for a minute that Rowling intended it to be that way or that if she did, that it matters. She created a book that has meaning for many people. In a way, it's about the things that unite us no matter what our specific beliefs may be.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Pooka, I don't have my copy here at work to look it up, but I'm pretty sure he says it when he's explaining everything. I noted it as a strikingly Christian idea and that was precisely the point at which I began to wonder if Rowling wasn't hitting the theme a bit too hard for her non-Christian fans.
DB, Is it possible to write a Christian allegory without calling to mind other variants on the Dying God to those who are aware of them? Rowling is herself a Christian and just by being raised in Common Era Western Society is enough to make Christ almost certainly the foremost figure of that type in her thoughts.
BlackBlade, Frazer's The Golden Bough is probably a good place to learn about non-Christian ideas of the Dying God and Chesterton's The Everlasting Man is the strongest Christian response to it that I have read.
Edit to add: Christine, I disagree in part-- I think Rowling intentionally added the Christian ideas, as well as, I think, some nods to Lewis and Tolkien both-- but I absolutely agree that it shouldn't matter. It's a story... anyone should be able to enjoy it. I certainly don't think the Wachowski Brothers intended to tell a specifically Christian story with The Matrix, but Neo is certainly a Christ Figure and it does very well as a Christian story-- just as you say: people can find their own meanings.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
Man, so many people including myself are so attached to these books and these characters, if our worlds were connected I think we'd be under Harry's sacrificial protection too.
And since we believed in him we'd all get to go to heaven. (jay kay.. jk..)
-el pep
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
quote:Christ figures in literature are ones who sacrifice themselves. It's the resurrection bit that makes it different.
Actually, the resurrection bit is what makes it just like the previous ones (Osiris, Dionysus, etc.) that predate the Christ story. Of course, this is counting mythology as literature. You may have simply meant that in modern literature, the Christ figure is seldom resurrected, in which case, yeah.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
BB, The dying/rising god is one of the most common shared stories in mythology. David's already referenced a couple of examples.
It was often tied to the winter/spring cycle, with the deity/hero dying to provide light or food or warmth for his people and rising again with the return of spring.
Persephone is a famous example of this sort.
Another variation is death and ressurrection with the return being accompanied with a transfiguration and or enlightenment. Dionysus is a famous example of this.
I've used Greek myths as examples because they are most familar with many in western audiences, but these myths can be found in msot mythologies.
---
I'm not upset about the Christ figure, but I find that often, like in this case, its shorthand simplicity takes away from potential deeper meanings - the symbolism of the King's Cross Harry and Dumbledore scene, for example.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
I like how Harry put his old wand together with the Elder Wand, only wanting it for that.
I don't like how there wasn't much of a 'reaction' factor for Harry after watching Snape's memories. -Nor did he throw the bottle of Snape juice at a wall after having been given it.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Lest I seem too caught up in arguing, I do want to say that I thoroughly loved the book... a very fitting finish to the series and vying with PoA as my favorite.
I was especially gratified that Neville got to play such a critical and leaderly role and I nearly cheered aloud when he cut off Nagini's head. I was a "Snape is Good" man, and got totally suckered in... I spent the first 3/4 of the book thinking "oh well... guess I was wrong about him... maybe she was too busy wiht other plot twists and couldn't find the time to write him a little more complexity... pity." Then he gave Harry his memories and... wow, what a great chapter that was. Also loved that Dudley finally came to respect Harry and, as others have said, the Chapter where Harry realizes he has to die was truly wrenching. Despite that Lupin and Tonks where a couple of my favorites, I think Fred's death hit me the hardest, because it was like he and Percy had just discovered that they really were brothers and then it was taken away from them. I am so glad that they got that moment, though.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Voldemort drew his wand and pointed it at Harry. Harry spread his arms without reaching for his wand.
"Avada Kadavra!"
Green light shot out of Voldemort's wand; Harry's body fell to the ground.
"Avada Kadavra! Avada Kadavra! Avada Kadavra!"
Voldemort paused and looked down on "The Boy Who Lived." The wind russled through Harry's ruffled hair.
"Avada Kadavra!" screamed Voldemort one last time. Harry's lifeless body bounced.
"Narcissa, dismember the corpse, I'd like Harry's head on a poll as we march back to Hogwarts proper."
The End.
--
It should have been called "Harry Potter and The Butcher's Bill." But then, we knew there would be a lot of death.
I thought the scenes in the woods were way too long. I think Ms Rowling looked at her "book per year" formula and wondered "How am I going to stretch this out for a whole year? I know, I'll have them meander through the woods on the lamb for 9 months getting nothing done."
I knew Tonks and Lupin were Avada-fodder as soon as they made Harry Teddy's godfather.
I would have enjoyed a little more denument. I wanted answers to what people did with their lives, not just "Oh, ya, they had wizarding kids that went to hogwarts."
I hope Prof. McGonagal is head mistress.
There's so much more to say, but I don't think it's sunk in all the way yet. I read it so quickly on Saturday (So no one would have a chance to spoil it for me) that I think I need to read it again...
Pix
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
And Dumbledore's firm insistence (warning, perhaps? did anyone else feel it was fairly ominous?) that nothing could be done for it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mr S: Thanks, I can see how you might believe this. Bear in mind that there are those who believe that from the time of Adam, Christ's story was understood in detail, and since the story was told from the beginning, its very possible that mythologies from Greece to China may reflect influence from Christ's story not the other way around.
But your point is taken.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
that part really really worried me. I don't like the idea of even the evilest man who ever lived being a flayed baby eternally.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
I feel sorry for the people that grab at the pathetic phantom power they feel from posting the spoilers in horribly rude places. I hate the Crabbes and Goyles of the world.. I was watching some lego video on you tube, and low and behold, down in the comments is every spoiler possible along with all their page numbers.
Why??
Why????
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I definitely want to read it again.
I read it in Palmyra, New York, waiting for the Hill Cumorah pageant to start. The last 100 pages were a vicious race against the sun because I didn't bring a flashlight. I didn't make it - much of the battle was read by the light of the fires onstage. I read the epilogue in the parking lot, waiting for the crowd to disperse so I could find my car, covering my ears to drown out the "You're going to hell" rants of the anti-Mormon protesters.
There were hundreds of Harry Potter books in the crowd. Every third person waiting was reading it, and I had several strangers come up to me, all excited about the book. Some cast members came by to ask how many people were dead yet and express envy that I could read at the time. It was so cool.
That was pretty fun. I would have preferred to read it with my friends, but my Harry Potter friends all live far away and I'd promised to be a driver for the Palmyra trip weeks ago.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Hee hee. I thought about going to Palmyra, but the 21st of July was "booked" on my calendar. Now you see why I have to examine myself for "false Christ" conflicts.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Heh. That did occur to me as I attempted to read the Deathly Hallows by the light of the fire that was consuming Abinadi, but I figured that I was at least there - that has to count for something, and the action doesn't move really fast in the pageant anyway. I could glance up every 20 seconds and be fine.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I made a parallel between the "bored in the woods" part of the book and "slogging through Mordor" in Tolkein.
In other words even though it was boring and hard and annoying to read, without it the rest of the book wouldn't hold up. I suspect that the "woods" section of the book is what is going to make the entire thing stand up and last over time.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I didn't notice such a bad "bored in the woods" thing. I mean, I think there had to be some grieving over Ron's departure. Or do you mean after? We had to feel the weight of Ron being gone, and knowing Hermione wouldn't shift affections to Harry. It added weight to Ron's struggle with his demons. Plus it made the appearance of the doe such an extraordinary act of grace. How did you all react to that? I wondered if it was Lily, I couldn't imagine how it could be Snape, because I was a Snape detractor, but no one else made sense.
P.S. I wonder why Dumbledore never married. Were any of the house heads or teachers? What's with that?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:P.S. I wonder why Dumbledore never married. Were any of the house heads or teachers? What's with that?
You clearly did not read Ms. Skeeter's book.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Oh I was bored before Ron left for the same reasons he was. I was also bored reading through all those stupid newspaper clippings on Dumbledore's life, knowing they weren't the entire truth and she'd have to tell us the real story later in the book.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I wonder how much of Snape's memories Alan Rickman will be able to play. I guess he wears quite a bit of makeup anyway.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: I do think the idea of Harry dying for his friends making him "the master of death" is sufficiently Christian to be identified and discussed as such.
Aha! That's what it was. The whole, "I died for them and now your spells don't stick, neener neener!" bit was what annoyed me. Not solely for the Christian reference, but that didn't help.
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: I had actually never read any of these books before two weeks ago, but I've read all seven now, and I am very pleased I did.
Didn't your family miss you?
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
quote: Seriously? Seems like they still had to fight pretty hard. I was kind of confused by that point.
He says it as he is in the final duel with Voldemort. No one else knew about it, so they kept fighting as if their lives depended on it. Plus, he only saved them from Voldy, not the Death Eaters.
They thought he was dead, remember. Also, I don't think he realized at first what was happening either.
quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me:
quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: The coolest thing about the King's Cross chapter, btw, is Voldemort's nearly sluglike soul crawling about and mewling weakly.
And Dumbledore's firm insistence (warning, perhaps? did anyone else feel it was fairly ominous?) that nothing could be done for it.
Oh, it was definitely a warning. Along the lines of, "If you try, you will undo all the good you just did."
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:P.S. I wonder why Dumbledore never married. Were any of the house heads or teachers? What's with that?
You clearly did not read Ms. Skeeter's book.
Agreed. As Harry said, Dumbledore was never free. He was tied to his guilt and shame -- and doing his best to do penance for his mistakes as a young adult.
I could see there being a Mrs. Flitwick or a Mr. Sprout, but most of the other teachers are clearly never-married.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
Thought the book was great. I am kind of upset I read everyone’s theories ahead of time so once I realized which ones were right the actual book seemed a little anti-climatic.
I'll agree the only part I didn't care for was the camping in the woods for 9 months.
Did anyone else feel like the diadem felt rushed. “Let’s see; book, ring, locket, cup, snake, Harry….Oh yeah I need to add one more horecrux.” It was a little too easy to find and to easy to destroy.
I loved Neville got to pull out the sword and kill the snake. I wanted him to be the one to kill Bellatrix, but Mrs. Weasley was really cool also.
I guess it was appropriate that she would find a way to kill Voldy without Harry having to actually do the killing him. Interesting it was OK for many other good characters to kill in battle, but not for Harry.
I wish the Snape story arch could have been told throughout the book instead of all at once. I’m not sure how it could have been done, but after book 6 I figured he would play a much more central roll in book 7.
These last two books are going to be very difficult to make into good movies. Unlike OotP which had a lot of fluff that I didn’t miss in the movie at all* books 6 & 7 will have to include many of the subplots and storylines. There is so much to background to explain it will be a challenge to make them interesting in the movie. The Kings Cross scene will be very hard to do well. I guess they will have to do some streamlining and we will all be mad at the parts they left out.
*I’ll go out on a limb and say the movie OotP was better than the book. (I know that’s another thread.)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Did anyone else feel like the diadem felt rushed. “Let’s see; book, ring, locket, cup, snake, Harry….Oh yeah I need to add one more horecrux.” It was a little too easy to find and to easy to destroy.
No, it built from when Xenophilus mentions it, through Bellatrix's vault, and of course being foreshadowed from book 6. I thought the last horcrux might be the potions book, but 2 horcrux books both hidden at Hogwarts seemed improbable. I was just really shocked that Nagini turned out to really be one after all.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Agreed. As Harry said, Dumbledore was never free. He was tied to his guilt and shame -- and doing his best to do penance for his mistakes as a young adult
*cough* *cough* yes this is PRECISELY what I meant! Leave it to Rivka to bring it to my attention that something I said in jest actually has some substance to it!
I was suggesting that in Rita Skeeters biography of Dumbledore some sort of secret love or vile liaison would likely be hinted at, if not outright stated.
But yes I think the truth of it is that Dumbledore had skeletons and not pretty ones. He spent his life trying to pay reparations for his actions when he was younger.
How odd that both Snape and Dumbledore are identical in this regard but both approach this duty so differently.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
They're NOT identical. Dumbledore regretted his actions almost immediately, and tried to ensure there was never any similar incident -- even to the degree of not accepting the Minister job because he knew real power was not a good thing for him to have.
Snape only regretted his actions when they led to Lily's death. Where is the remorse for all the other deaths that occurred at his hands or because of information he gave Voldemort when he really was working for him? Not until he was dead / about to die do we see real remorse.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Sooo...any theories on who the 2 additional deaths were? And who the 1 person she saved was? I'm hoping this comes out in an interview soon.
My theories:
Lupin and Tonks weren't slated for death until this book.
I'm not sure who the reprieve would be. There are a lot more choices, there, but I'm wondering if it's tied to the person who was supposed to do magic late in life but didn't -- seems at least one scene got cut entirely.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I prefer to read without looking for any "Christian Imagery." It feels too much like I'm stuck in high school English class again. I'm just going to enjoy the story.
"The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." That was probably the best line in the whole book, for me. It was creepy and the necessary abbreviation of the message unerlined its urgency and seriousness. Alos, I keep hearing "They are coming" in the voice of Gandalf in Moria.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think the reprieve may have been Hagrid. My only other guess would be McGonagall.
That bit about "magic late in life" was already answered by someone. It was Merope.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I think the reprieve was Hagrid - there were so many chances for him to die. I think he was kept alive so he could carry Harry's body into Hogwarts.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I think the reprieve may have been Hagrid. My only other guess would be McGonagall.
That bit about "magic late in life" was already answered by someone. It was Merope.
Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
This is to all the people who are unsatisfied with the ending. To people who want to know the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Hogwarts.
Did they repair the School?
Did they weed out the Ministry?
Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did they bury and mourn their dead?
Naturally the answer is, of course they did. What else could the do?
Certainly they repaired the school, what else could the do? Certainly they buried and mourned their dead, what else could they do? Certainly Umbridge paid some price for her actions. It may not have been high enough to satisfy us, but she paid. What happened to Draco? Well, certainly something happened, but he got over it, got past it, and moved on.
Do you really want to hear about all this mundane and fairly obvious stuff? When it seems fairly obvious that, one way or another, all this issues were indeed dealt with as they must be.
You don't end a story with the readers completely satisfied and knowing everything. You leave them with their minds and imaginations on fire, speculating about the future and what happened next. You don't leave them hanging, but you do leave them wanting more; that is what keeps the story alive even when it is over.
There is tons that we don't know, but this we do know ... life went on. Of that, I'm glad.
Just passing it along.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
BlueWizard -- it's not the answers to the questions that is important, 5t's the completion of an emotional journey with the characters. I don't have to see them burying the dead and rebuilding the school to know they did it but it remains a powerful thing for me to be able to share with them rather than having to logic it out in my own head. When it comes to satisfaction from a book you need more than a logical conclusion, you need an emotional one. We've lived with these characters for years now and have quite an emotional investment in them by now. Many of us wanted to live through at least some of the aftermath.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Was I the only one who thought it a little creepy that Snape's last act was to show Harry "Hey I've always had the hots for YOUR MOM! I was stalking her when we were both 9!"
I liked getting the backstory on Snape, especially the realization that the whole time he was begging to find Potter for V was following Dumbledore's instructions about when Nagini is kept protected, and of course he needed to pass on that info... but finding out your least favorite teacher's been carrying a torch for your mother his whole life is not the kind of thing a 17-year-old boy would be entirely comfortable with, IMO.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Do you really want to hear about all this mundane and fairly obvious stuff?
YES.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I've decided Harry was not master of Death itself (Not even Xenophilus thought Death was personified) but he had grasped a magic greater than the Avada Kedevara spell. He could withstand the imperius curse too, and I suppose... was he withstanding the cruciatus curse in book V? I'm mixed up between what happened in the book vs. the movie. Basically, when it comes right down to it, it's the Alvin Maker/Wicca school of harm none.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
McGonagall was the stuff.
Dobby was also...the stuff. It was really sad when he bit it.
I thought the whole Snape thing was fascinating.
The robbery of Gringotts--that was awesome.
I thought Neville's role at the end was great. I kind of wonder what Rowling was trying to say by having the "other" boy (neville) participate in killing the last Horcrux.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that steven.
Was anyone else wondering why destroying the horcruxes didn't fry people's hands off like the ring apparently had for Dumbledore? I mean, it got resolved, I just wondered if anyone else got confused by that in the course of things.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I thought that he burned his hand off putting on the ring, not by trying to destroy it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I thought that he burned his hand off putting on the ring, not by trying to destroy it.
Yup. It was the desire for the Hallows that caused the curse -- which burned his hand, and caused his death.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: "The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." That was probably the best line in the whole book, for me. It was creepy and the necessary abbreviation of the message unerlined its urgency and seriousness. Alos, I keep hearing "They are coming" in the voice of Gandalf in Moria.
Easily it was the most exciting line of the book for me. I had a huge shiver roll up and down my spine when I read that. And also, I totally thought of Gandalf when I read it to. I had lines from the Book of Marzabul running through my head for a few minutes after that, which I think only made it more exciting.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Aha! That's what it was. The whole, "I died for them and now your spells don't stick, neener neener!" bit was what annoyed me. Not solely for the Christian reference, but that didn't help.
Did you hate that element way back when it was originally introduced as the reason why Lily's sacrifice made Harry "The Boy Who Lived"?
And is rebirth and redemption giving power really solely a Christian reference?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Nope. Harry's attitude has never gone over well with me.
Anyway, there is a difference between a mother's love protecting her child and My Sacrifice Will Save You All!
Why does it have to be solely anything?
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
JKR can do no wrong in my eyes. The book could have been positively filled to the seams with fluff and I wouldn't have minded. I've loved every book, and found no error with any of them. Of course, I haven't re-read any of them either, and I find that it's the re-read that opens my eyes to literary misteps.
I was never bored during the reading of DH. I'm actually a little surprised others were. I was completely into it, and, let's face it, we needed a little Ron time. Let him leave and come back. I thought it was needed.
Also, the entire series is told through Harry's POV, with the exception of the phantam prologues masqurading as 'Chapter One's. I'm surprised we learned as much as we did through one POV. But, Rowling always surprises me. I didn't mind the exposition of Dumbledore's theories. I would have been angry if they were trimmed in any way.
Rowling's a Christian? Wow. I know people who are convinced she's a die-hard satanist. (I was never in the group, thankfully.) I never really thought about it... Her religous beliefs, I mean.
As somebody who hates preachy books (Especially Christian preachy books), I have to say I didn't detect any discernable Christian symbology that didn't blend well with the story, or that was artificially inserted by Rowling.
I really didn't see it as a Christian messege at all. The book was true to the series. This was the kind of ending that befitted the Harry Potter series, and I felt that it completed and complimented a lot of ideas from the earlier books.
I did see similarities, but you see similarities to Christianity all the time. I account it to the fact that Christianity is one of the most superficially understood religions there are. I mean, Most Christian sterotypes are due to the exaggeration of beliefs that do, in fact, exist -- as opposed to other religons that are misunderstood alltogether. So, a lot of people, at least people in the US and the UK, probably have a remedial understanding of Christianity. We're everywhere, everywhere!
I find it odd that anybody would think that the book is in any way dirtied because of the similarities, or that it would in any way affect one's enjoyment of the book.
Lighten up.
Okay, Hermione (Goblet, Hufflepuff), Ron (Locket, Slytherin), Harry (Harry, Griffindor), Neville (Nagini), Dumbledore (Ring), and Goyle (Die-dum, Ravenclaw) have all destroyed horocruxes. I forgot the seventh, and the person who took care of the seventh one. Sorry. Oh, and was the Ring Gryffindor's?
I was just interested in how many different got to kill a Horocrux. I call next! My turn!
*** Edited for missing Italics, and i's in brackets ***
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did anybody but me assume that leaving her unconscious in a room full of Dementors resulted in her recieving the "kiss?"
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Tom Riddle's diary, destroyed by Harry, is the one you're missing.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Ah. That makes sense.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: Was I the only one who thought it a little creepy that Snape's last act was to show Harry "Hey I've always had the hots for YOUR MOM! I was stalking her when we were both 9!"
I liked getting the backstory on Snape, especially the realization that the whole time he was begging to find Potter for V was following Dumbledore's instructions about when Nagini is kept protected, and of course he needed to pass on that info... but finding out your least favorite teacher's been carrying a torch for your mother his whole life is not the kind of thing a 17-year-old boy would be entirely comfortable with, IMO.
--Enigmatic
It's even squickier when you realize that his actual dying act was to stare into Harry's eyes, perhaps thinking of Lily's, since they were alike.
So, his least favorite teacher dies while staring lovingly into his eyes while probably thinking about his mom.
Poor Snape. I love Snape. Perhaps more now that he's basically Alan Rickman in my mind. Snape rocks.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Snape has always rocked. Totally my favorite character since the first book.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
So...did anyone else notice that there were 8 Horcruxes, in the end. Or at least, 8 pieces of Voldemort's soul?
1. The piece in Voldemort. 2. the diary 3. the ring 4. the locket 5. the cup 6. the diadem 7. Nagini 8. inside Harry
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I still want to know more about Snape.
Sacricing yourself and being reborn is one of the oldest stories in the world. Perhaps one of the best. Stories are sacred.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
Christine, Voldemort didn't know that he had put part of himself in Harry as a horcrux, did he? So in his mind, he had made 7 horcruxes, which was for him the proper number.
There's probably something in there about making 8 instead of the magical 7 horcruxes made him weaker, but I don't think that particular aspect really matters all that much.
And Eaquae Legit, you are right. That line was the moment I knew that this was my favorite book. It all had come to this. All of the elements could only be understood by someone who has read and been enthralled in the books.
If you go up and tell someone who hasn't read or seen Harry Potter (probably hard to do) and told them "The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming." They would have no clue what you were talking about. They probably would back away, thinking you were nuts.
And that's why I loved it so much. I knew everything that had happened. I knew that the fact that the Ministry has fallen was bad. Not necessarily bad because the Ministry had fallen, but bad because the Death Eaters had finally taken over. I knew that Scrimgeour's death was bad, not because he was a great man, but because he wasn't evil. He was the Minister of Magic, needing to be somewhere in the middle of all of the politics. I knew that the warning "They are coming" meant everyone's worst nightmares had been realized. That there was no more denying the rumors, the accusations. It was time to truly take action.
At that moment, all of the time and thought-power and emotions I have felt over the past 10 years were about to come to an end, a potentially glorious, satisfying, and moving end. From that moment on, I actually did not stop reading the book. I read all day, and all the way until 1:30 in the AM, even though I had to get up at 6 for work. It didn't matter. This was it.
I love JKR.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Christine, Voldemort didn't know that he had put part of himself in Harry as a horcrux, did he? So in his mind, he had made 7 horcruxes, which was for him the proper number.
Actually, he intended to make 6 Horcruxes, which would yield 7 pieces. Harry was the mistaken 8th fragment. And yes, it probably did weaken him.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA. Based on various discussions, I appear to be alone in this consideration.
Thoughts?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Wonderful book and as far as I'm concerned a durn near perfect ending to the series. I liked that Harry lived but was not only willing to die, but followed through and would have died were it not for his opportunity to choose to go back. I could have done without the epilogue, but figured that it was probably necessary to keep some people from screaming for 'the end of the story'.
The only part that seemed contrived at all was when Voldemort called for the Sorting Hat. Which just happened to yeild exactly what Neville needed to kill Nagini.
Other than that, it was pretty much a perfect end to the series, which is better than I expected, honestly. I expected to be a little disappointed, because of all the build up. How could it possibly measure up to the expectations built for it? But Rowling did it, and did it beautifully. I'm looking forward to whatever she writes in the future.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA.
What else would it be?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Carrie, I figured that the hand reacted as it did because Pettigrew was acting contrary to Voldemort's interests. The life debt was paid with the decision and act to let Harry go rather than alert the Death Eaters of his escape. Pettigrew died because he followed a sadistic, cruel leader, IMO, not because he had to 'pay' the life debt.
Posted by otterk10 (Member # 10463) on :
Was it just me, or was anyone else scared that Rowling was gonna pull a Wizard of Oz when Harry wakes up after getting killed?
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
otterk10, I would burn the books if that happened.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I'm glad I'm not the only one who heard "...they are coming." in Gandalf's voice.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: I find it odd that anybody would think that the book is in any way dirtied because of the similarities, or that it would in any way affect one's enjoyment of the book.
Lighten up.
Geeez. Who said "dirtied"? I found it annoying because I consider it a cliche. And it's an emphatically-not-mine cliche to boot. But it didn't "dirty" anything. You're reading a lot into what I and others said, I think. Perhaps you should lighten up?
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did anybody but me assume that leaving her unconscious in a room full of Dementors resulted in her receiving the "kiss?"
One can only hope.
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: So, his least favorite teacher dies while staring lovingly into his eyes while probably thinking about his mom.
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Poor Snape. I love Snape. Perhaps more now that he's basically Alan Rickman in my mind. Snape rocks.
Agreed 100%!
quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: Actually, he intended to make 6 Horcruxes, which would yield 7 pieces. Harry was the mistaken 8th fragment. And yes, it probably did weaken him.
My impression was that it was circular. The damage he had done to his soul weakened it so much that the shock of the rebounding curse caused an additional tear/horcrux. Additionally, since each tear/horcrux weakened his soul, this had the effect of weakening him even more than the 6 he had intended.
Also, it meant that Rowling could cheat.
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA. Based on various discussions, I appear to be alone in this consideration.
That was my take as well.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I don't know....I think the people finding Christian elements are off. Harry's 17, not 33. Also, his parents are murdered, and he is raised by people who hate him.
OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
Hmmm...yeah, no, I don't see it.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
Sorry Christine, just got back to the computer. Yes, she was a witch, but she didn't do magic until she went after Tom Riddle, Sr. They thought she might have been a squib. It seems like it may have been related to her depression/piteous existence. Remember how Tonks started to suck at magic when she got all depressed?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm not willing to believe Merope was a squib just because her father said so. I know way back when JK did say she was including that, and mugglenet assumed that it hadn't happened, though that might be what Rowling meant. It's very hard to tell.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Wait...JKR said who-hey-and-a-what now?
edit: I'm not contending that Merope was a squib who suddenly sprouted magic. I'm saying she clearly wasn't a squib, but for reasons not fully comprehended by us, she didn't do any magic until she was an adult.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
This is what I get for not enough sleep. JK Rowling did say that someone would perform magic, Christine didn't get caught up in a rumor.
I think lots of people assumed that it was Merope because her father called her a filthy squib. I do think it's possible that Marvalo decided not to send his kids to Hogwarts and thus she'd never done magic. It's so hard to tell. I figure she'll be in an interview within the next week or two saying who the two extras she killed and the person she saved were.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Maybe incest causes delayed magical ability. Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
I think he ment the Jewish Community in Biblical times. The pharisees.
Posted by Liaison (Member # 6873) on :
Previous to love potion-ing Tom Riddle, or whatever she did, Merope made a cooking pot shoot across a room causing it to split in half. Bottom of page 205 in Half-Blood Prince. It's entirely possible that squibs are capable of doing that sort of thing, but if that's the case I'd say it's cutting a pretty fine line between who is truly magical and who is not.
With that said, I still don't doubt that she was the one who discovered magic later in life...that is, if Rowling didn't cut out the character in question.
My thoughts on Deathly Hallows, etc:
For whatever reason, I have had an affinity for Snape since book one, which had added gravity to every scene/event involving him since then. Every mean thing he did seemed rather petty and superficial while every good thing he did was quietly heroic. To me, that implied he was hiding something much deeper, tortured even, in his personality. After book six I felt convinced that Lily had been the object of his affection. I couldn't think of anything else that completed the puzzle more smoothly.
I'm not much of a crier, but all the Snape stuff in the latter half of the book made me bawl. None of the other deaths affected me nearly as much as his did. I can understand how the desire to look at Harry's eyes in the end could be creepy, but I don't see it that way. He had sacrificed most of his time, energy, life, towards helping and protecting Harry. He died with the knowledge that Dumbledore had used him, Harry was meant to die young anyway, and Harry could choose to never look at those memories. I don't find it repulsive that he requested of Harry one last small comfort. I tend to think his 'hots' for Lily was largely intellectual and genial. They were childhood friends, both academically focused, and brilliant at Potions. And once she was dead and gone he never pursued any other relationship even though he was still quite young at the time. He was a selfish guy, yes, but selfish for moderately honorable reasons.
Nearly half my life has been spent as part of 'Potterdom', liking Snape, so I suppose I'm biased. But the Lily and Snape story is what leaves the most powerfully resounding memory for me when it comes to the complete arc of all the books. Maybe because I've lost childhood friends. I don't know. *shrug*
All in all, I loved the final installment. I had no qualms whatsoever with anything. Even the lightness and brevity of the epilogue didn't bother me. As an afterthought I almost think Rowling added it so that she could have Harry make a more personal statement about Snape. Someone had mentioned previously in the thread about Harry's reaction to Snape's memories being less than impactful. His acknowledgement of Snape in the final discussion with Voldy was to an audience...dramatic. Speaking quietly to his son after 19 years about Snape probably being the bravest man he ever knew seems a much stronger and heartfelt recognition.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Lily's letter was the first bit I cried heavily for. Cried heavily as in uncontrollable sobbing. Yeesh. That was hard to read.
[ July 24, 2007, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Liaison ]
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I, too, thought the epilogue was mostly there to show how much of an impact Snape's death really had on Harry. It was understated previously, but I teared up when I read the line when Harry told Albus that Snape was possibly the bravest man he ever knew.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Geez guys. Why ya gotta go and have all the good discussions before I'm finished reading?
I loved it. Definitely my favorite of the seven. Snape, Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny and Harry, Hermione and Ron, the Hallows, the horcruxes, the epilogue - I loved it all. I just can't believe it's actually over.
There is one thing I'm a bit confused about. I'm going to read back over it again, but maybe someone else can explain in the meantime. Okay, so I get how ownership of the Elder Wand transferred from Draco to Harry, but I think I missed how it got to Draco in the first place. Is it simply because it was Draco's intention to kill Dumbledore?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Nope. Draco disarmed Dumbledore, so the wand was his. Apparently, nobody had disarmed Dumbledore prior to this.
Lucky him.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Ahh...
Thanks.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
[This is a repost from Tatania's thread]
I haven't read that far yet (and have skipped most of this thread) but I just want to say I'm up to the point of the fall of the Government. This is getting great! I'm totally wondering what this will mean for not just the magic using people but also Humanity at large. With the coup successful, the Minister dead, and his ruling Cabinet replaced or under mind control that means the military might of the Ministry is now lost and in fact turned against the forces of good. I think the fall of the Ministry is more horrible than any fall of Hogwarts could be, as Hogwarts might stand as a fortress it does not have the access to all the wizarding community nor the power to track the entire population like the Government. The Order of the Pheonix and other Hogwart's people should have allied themselves with the Ministry, even with its corruption, since the alternative is so much more horrible.
What we have now is the Dark Lord in command of all the powers of the Ministry and the people who can resist will be trapped in small bubbles around their homes that cannot keep out the Death Eaters for long.
Anyway, I'm off to read some more!
Posted by Liaison (Member # 6873) on :
I've had a thought. I'm confusing myself and going in circles when I try to work through the Elder wand possession thing. Could someone tell me what I'm missing?
As I understand it the Elder wand is not one specific object, but its power can manifest in another wand if the 'defeated' original Elder wand is lost.
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder wand. Draco disarms Dumbledore, whose wand goes flying off the tower. Draco's wand is the Elder wand. Harry nabs Draco's wand. Harry's wand is the Elder wand, which is still the same actual wand. Harry's wand deflects the AK and Voldy goes boom.
But then... Harry uses the Elder wand to repair his old wand and decides he doesn't want to use the Elder wand. How does that work? Is that possible? Wouldn't the power of the Elder wand re-manifest in whatever wand Harry picked up? Can you will your wand to not be the Elder wand?
I'm thinking I've totally mixed something up with the Elder wand concept. Can anyone enlighten me?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The Elder Wand is a physical wand, it's not a power that transfers from wand to wand.
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder Wand. Draco disarms Dumbledore, whose wand goes flying off the tower. Snape kills Dumbledore, but it's a planned death, so he doesn't take possession. Elder Wand is buried with Dumbledore, but Draco still has control. Later Draco is disarmed by Harry and Harry has control over the Elder Wand, which is now possessed by Voldemort who stole it from Dumbledore's tomb. Harry's wand deflects the AK from the Elder Wand that Voldemort is holding because the Elder Wand cannot kill its true master.
So Harry uses the Elder Wand to repair his old phoenix core wand, then plans to put the Elder Wand in a drawer until he dies, so the power of the wand will die with him, as no one can claim it from him.
Posted by xtownaga (Member # 7187) on :
Liaison I'm pretty sure the Elder Wand is one physical wand, not a power that jumps around. So...
Dumbledore's wand is the Elder Wand Draco disarms DD, and the elder wand goes flying off the tower, though Draco is now it's master. It is later recovered and entombed with DD Harry disarms Draco of Draco's original wand, however because he has been disarmed by Harry, Harry is now the master of both Draco's original wand AND the Elder Wand, which is still in DD's tomb. Meanwhile, Voldy grabs the Elder Wand out of DD's tomb, and finds that he isn't the master of it. He figures Snape killed DD, so Snape must be the wand's master, so he kills Snape, and finds that he STILL isn't the master (Harry is, even though he doesn't realize it and doesn't have the wand)
When he fights Voldy in the end, Harry finally gets the wand that's been loyal to him since he disarmed Malfoy back at Malfoy Manner. Because it's so powerful when used by it's master, it is able to repair Harry's original Wand, which was never special except for it's connection to Voldy/Voldy's wand, and once this is done, he ditches the Elder Wand (which is still, and has always been, the same stick of wood that DD used).
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Okay, here's my question: As soon as Harry disarms Draco, he technically becomes master of the Elder Wand, correct, having defeated Draco? (Skip over a few chapters of plot.) Voldemort then kills Harry. I thought that counted as defeat...wouldn't that make Voldemort master of the Elder Wand at that point? So the whole finale shouldn't have worked?
I don't know, just seemed a little odd to me. I guess you could call it a nonissue, since Harry was only "mostly dead" and does come back...still smells fishy, somehow.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
One thing I'd be curious about...did the Wand know that the AK wouldn't kill him? If the whole premise of Harry's victory is that the Elder Wand in the Great Hall wouldn't kill him because he is the true master, then why would the wand allow Voldemort to shoot an AK at him in the forest? Or did Harry have to have a spell on hand to deflect the shot? The whole thing seems like a grey area to me, but I'm satisfied with the way it turned out.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: I don't know....I think the people finding Christian elements are off. Harry's 17, not 33. Also, his parents are murdered, and he is raised by people who hate him.
OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
Hmmm...yeah, no, I don't see it.
You are making the mistake of suggesting that for Harry Potter to have ANY Christian elements it must become an allegory for the story of Christ.
Take The Matrix which the creators have openly admitted has some Christ/Messianic themes in it. Neo didn't have 12 buddies who followed him around and did his bidding, he blew people away with guns instead of healing them, the words of Neo were never written down and passed around as truth.
But Neo did have a Judas, he did die, resurrect, and in resurrecting obtained the power to conquer everything in the matrix. Actually he died twice and went into some sort of coma once.
Again, maybe the elements are there, and perhaps they are not, I personally see some. But that does not mean I think that the whole series needs to be read in light of the events of Christ's life.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Voldemort then kills Harry. I thought that counted as defeat.
There's actually a line in the book that explains this. Because Harry went willingly to his death and did not attempt to fight, it didn't count as a defeat.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory.
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
You're assuming that the conversation took a long time to those on the outside. The dreams we have at night can seem to take hours but in reality they last a few short minutes.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
And now on to happier things...
We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Re: the magic late in life
I thought it was the wands. The wands seemed to be tools the whole time, but we find out in this book that they have magic of their own and can do magic on their own. Harry's wand defends him from Voldemort without Harry doing anything about it, and the Elder Wand enabled Harry to win, and all wands choose their owners. There is magic-by-choice there, and we didn't really know about it before. I was certainly floored when Harry's wand saved him without Harry's instigation.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
If she's going to go all the way, she needs to lock her door.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: And now on to happier things...
We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Oh I dunno, perhaps we would have seen little James Potter a few weeks prior to Voldemort's defeat.
Bao Chicka WAO WAO!
With how useless Ginny got to be in the last book, her being pregnant would not have been a hindrance.
------
I honestly can't see Ginny going much further then a few minutes of passionate kissing.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:Did Umbridge pay a price?
Did anybody but me assume that leaving her unconscious in a room full of Dementors resulted in her recieving the "kiss?"
There's gonna be some hungry dementors, then. Because she had no soul to suck.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Christine: And now on to happier things...
We can nitpick all we want, but this was a good book and alongside some holes we want filled are holes that are perfectly fine and we can imagine filling. For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Oh I dunno, perhaps we would have seen little James Potter a few weeks prior to Voldemort's defeat.
Bao Chicka WAO WAO!
With how useless Ginny got to be in the last book, her being pregnant would not have been a hindrance.
------
I honestly can't see Ginny going much further then a few minutes of passionate kissing.
Oh...under any normal circumstance I would agree with you. She certainly wasn't a loose girl nor would she intentionally bring shame upon herself or her family. But dark times tend to do a few things and, well, she knew she may never see him again and that he may very well be going off to die. It could be that she wasn't thinking clearly or even that she was -- and that she wanted little James just in case it was all she'd ever have of him.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I think the reprieve may have been Hagrid. My only other guess would be McGonagall.
That bit about "magic late in life" was already answered by someone. It was Merope.
Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
She was more or less a Squib. But she used a potion to make Tom Riddle Sr. fall in love with her.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: For example...when Ginny gave Harry his "birthday present," how far was she going to go if Ron hadn't interrupted them? I have my theories...but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: Snape has always rocked. Totally my favorite character since the first book.
What's weird is that Rowling had no idea that she was telegraphing Snape's redemption. She was shocked when a fan asked her about it at a talk she gave.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: "I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
Fifty years. Not 15.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I think the reprieve may have been Hagrid. My only other guess would be McGonagall.
That bit about "magic late in life" was already answered by someone. It was Merope.
Huh? Isn't Merope Voldemort's mom? She was a witch.
She was more or less a Squib. But she used a potion to make Tom Riddle Sr. fall in love with her.
I don't believe she was a squib. When Dumbledore and Harry talked of her in HBP, Dumbledore specifically said she was a witch. Being bad at magic for whatever reason (nervousness or depression) is NOT the same thing as "doing magic late in life under extraordinary circumstances." I prefer to believe that Rowling cut the scene.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: "I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
Tom went to Hogwarts 15 years before Harry to apply for the DADA job/plant the Diadem in the Room of Requirement. He attended Hogwarts waay before that.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think Harry was ever totally dead at all. Look at the timeline of events, when Harry awoke from his conversation with Dumbledore, no time had passed at all. He was hit, he fell, then he could have gotten right back up if he had chosen to. I don't think he was ever dead, just a stopped moment in time for him to have his conversation with disembodied Dumbledore, so Voldemort never had his victory. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Voldemort and his followers celebrated the ENTIRE time that Harry had that long conversation and then just as Harry came back somebody thought to check if he was really dead?
Voldemort was knocked "unconscious" at the same moment Harry was. That is why Harry doesn't awake to cheers, rather stunned silence and Bellatrix's piteous supplication of Voldemort. The portion of his soul that was in Harry went to King's Cross when Harry did. When Harry chose to go back to finish Voldy off, the disfigured-baby part of Voldy's soul remained defeated, and Harry needed to face Voldemort himself. I also am under the impression that the whole King's Cross chapter happened almost instantaniously, from the POV of the witnesses.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: "I mean, Tom Riddle had been at Hogwarts himself what, maybe 15 years earlier?"
15 years? Before Harry???
I'm pretty sure he was there 50-60 years before Harry.
As for DH, wow. It changes everything. I don't think I can read the other 6 the same way again.
Stuff I loved: McGonagal leading the desks into battle Ron/Hermione's kiss Kreacher changing and when he tells Harry to wash his hands before dinner Dobby and the escape from the Malfoy's The way they left 4 Privet Drive Neville Snape's history
I'm sure there's more, but it might be a bit much to list half the book.
I thought the amount of time they spent in the woods seemed a bit long. The only questions I really have pertain to what happened between the end of the book and the epilogue. What are they all doing? Did George continue the joke shop by himself? Who became Minister of Magic after the temp Kingsley (or did he just remain there)? Who became head of Hogwarts?
Someone mentioned somewhere that they would like a version of the book from Neville/Luna/Ginny's perspective and I think that would be awesome.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Does anyone else think a book from Neville's perspective of his year as a rebel leader at Hogwarts would be pretty good? It would only have to synch up with the DH plot at a few points (mostly the end).
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Does anyone else think a book from Neville's perspective of his year as a rebel leader at Hogwarts would be pretty good? It would only have to synch up with the DH plot at a few points (mostly the end).
I mentioned that in the "What next JK Rowling" (not the actual thread title) thread. I think it would be great if she wrote this story.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by steven: OTOH, Voldemort's hatred of Mudbloods could be construed as comparable to certain tendencies in teh Jewish community.
However, Voldemort was a major rule breaker/maverick/outsider, whereas the Jewish priesthood ruled without question.
I think he ment the Jewish Community in Biblical times. The pharisees.
I don't care if he meant that. It's untrue and slanderous in either case. Steven should apologize.
Posted by trip9 (Member # 8498) on :
The whole time I was waiting for the 7th book to come out I was convinced the only way for the story to truly end would be with Harry dying but after thinking about it a lot I realized that it was much better this way.
2 quick things about Harry's death/rebirth:
Did the fact that Harry woke up at The King's Cross instantly remind anyone of Neo and the train station?
And throughout the whole "second coming" of Harry all I could think of was 'Lookout for Harry the White'
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I don't get the diadem part. Voldemort went to hogwarts to apply for DADA before he got very popular, probably more than 15 years earlier (though maybe not). But he didnt' have the diadem until he went to Albania which whas the time from when Lilly and James died until Quirrell picked him up.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
cont.
that and I don't think Voldy would be stupid enough to think the hiding room of requirement would be 'unknown' to others when there's clearly a lot of crap in that room people have hidden..
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think he went to Albania to get the Diadem before he went after the Potters. He went to Albania after he was reduced because he knew it from that trip and knew it would be easy to hide there.
What was the object that would have been the Horocrux had Voldemort killed Harry in Godric's Hollow?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Could he have been looking for the invisibility cloak?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I don't get the diadem part. Voldemort went to hogwarts to apply for DADA before he got very popular, probably more than 15 years earlier (though maybe not). But he didnt' have the diadem until he went to Albania which whas the time from when Lilly and James died until Quirrell picked him up.
I'm sure he went to Albania well before that. He went to work for the dark arts shop until he killed the woman with the cup and the locket...then he disappeared for 10 years that no one can account for. I'm sure that's when he got the diadem. After that disappearance, he went to ask Dumbledore for a job, and that's when he planted the diadem in the room of requirement.
quote:Originally posted by Pepek: cont.
that and I don't think Voldy would be stupid enough to think the hiding room of requirement would be 'unknown' to others when there's clearly a lot of crap in that room people have hidden..
Who said it had all that crap in there when Voldemort found it? The room turns into exactly what you need, and whether consciously or not, part of what Voldemort needed was to think that no one else had found the room. I'd bet that for him, the room was empty.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
quote: part of what Voldemort needed was to think that no one else had found the room. I'd bet that for him, the room was empty.
curious. that gives me some comfort. still though, wouldn't that version of the room for him not be fullfilling the requirements? The room having been found.. He also placed it on the bust, maybily.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I don't think he was intending the make a Horocrux when he killed Harry, my read was that it happened accidentally because his soul was so fragmented already, that when the curse bounced off Lily's protection, it caused an unplanned splintering.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pepek:
quote: part of what Voldemort needed was to think that no one else had found the room. I'd bet that for him, the room was empty.
curious. that gives me some comfort. still though, wouldn't that version of the room for him not be fullfilling the requirements? The room having been found.. He also placed it on the bust, maybily.
I didn't say the explanation was perfect, but it was something that I thought of. The DA members needed a place that they couldn't be found and yet they were found, so it's not like there's no precedent for that.
The other explanation is that Voldemort that the room had filled itself up with junk to make it harder to find the Diadem, even if someone did stumble upon the room in the future. There is also a precedent for Voldemort being cocky beyond reason and completely assured that he was special.
Not sure which it is...may never know...may even be something else. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Who said it had all that crap in there when Voldemort found it? The room turns into exactly what you need, and whether consciously or not, part of what Voldemort needed was to think that no one else had found the room. I'd bet that for him, the room was empty.
But then it clearly was not giving Voldemort what he "needed" as his needs were circumvented by other people's need to find it....and clearly I cannot take the glass in front of you!
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
maybe Voldy was a clepto and /allll/ the stuff in there was put there by him.
Voldemort is such a perfect villain name. Snape too.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Didn't Hagrid say in book 1 that there was no safer place to keep something than Gringot's? Cept maybe Hogwarts. And it was echoed in book 7.
Obviously a horcrux had to be hidden in Hogwarts. That was building from book 1.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pepek: maybe Voldy was a clepto and /allll/ the stuff in there was put there by him.
Voldemort is such a perfect villain name. Snape too.
Hey....I'm not sure if you're joking or not but actually, that's not such a bad idea. Remember, when Dumbledore found him at the orphanage, he had a box full of stuff that wasn't his. Maybe at Hogwarts he has a room full!
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
oh yah! . wow. that'd be cool.
---
If I was Voldmunch, I would've picked up a random rock and horcruxed it. Toss it into a volcano or drop it off somewhere in the arctics.. middle of an ocean.. into another pile of rocks.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I like that he didn't - it was his fatal flaw.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I don't think he was intending the make a Horocrux when he killed Harry, my read was that it happened accidentally because his soul was so fragmented already, that when the curse bounced off Lily's protection, it caused an unplanned splintering.
I get that Harry becoming a Horocrux was both unplanned and unknown to Voldemort.
Dumbledore said that V. intended to make a Horocrux when he killed Harry as a baby. V. made Nagina a Horocrux after he returned (when he killed the old Muggle in GoF) because he didn't think he had made one when he attacked the Potters.
If D. was correct, then there should have been an object to become the Horocrux there, unless the object can be far away (which wouldn't contradict anything in the books, but seems unlikely).
It could have been the invisibility cloak, but there's no indication that V. knew it's special nature.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ah, okay.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Dumbledore made a big deal though, that Harry thinking Voldemort just made his horcruxes out of trash was thinking about it like a portkey, which was wrong. The thing held a part of his soul, for crying out loud.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
the goblet being a portkey was genius..
:: retrospects ::
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: It could have been the invisibility cloak, but there's no indication that V. knew it's special nature.
Except that the cloak wasn't there. Dumbledore had it.
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
quote:Except that the cloak wasn't there. Dumbledore had it.
convenient timing..
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I know that, but V. didn't.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
But you'd think he'd want to have it when it was time to make the Horcrux, ie, kill Harry. Surely some looking around would have concerned him, even delayed his timing of the murder, if he couldn't have found it.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
" don't care if he meant that. It's untrue and slanderous in either case. Steven should apologize."
I wasn't arguing from a religious perspective. I was discussing the use of a literary device from Rowling's possible Christian perspective. I was raised Christian, but that's it.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I'm guessing that when Voldy hid the diadem he was looking for a room that Dumbledore wouldn't find it in. Dumbledore's the only one he was actually afraid of - he was waaay to cocky, especially before his failure at the Potters, to worry about anyone else. All the students who were looking for a hiding place were probably specifying "where the teachers/Filch can't find this" as well. And in that case, his arrogance was his undoing, never thinking that mere children would know about horcruxes, figure out which was his, and be able to destroy it.
Posted by Liaison (Member # 6873) on :
Aha! Thank you Lyrhawn and xtownaga! I figured I was really biffing something up and you guys made it crystal clear. Thank you.
There will be a live chat with Rowling in a week and Bloomsbury is taking submitted questions. Bloomsbury Page
That's promising. Certainly we'll get a few answers to lingering questions. I'll hope for a definitive answer of who the magic-later-in-life person is and how James finally won over Lily.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I submitted a question. I hope I can remember to attend the chat. Let's see, BST, if it's Greenwich time, is... 9 a.m. our time. That's probably not likely to work well for me, but one never knows.
My question was quite rambling and had to do with the Peverell brothers and whether in her mind Death was based on a being of some kind or represented the power behind the 3 unforgiveable curses, and also why Madeye Moody's eye could see through the cloak. I guess maybe the idea there is that magic doesn't necessarily branch toward greater and greater power like a tree. It's probably like rock, scissors, paper.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
His eye can see through anything though. He can even see bogarts's real forms and no one can do that.
I hope i have a job by then.
See, if Harry decended from the Peverells, that means he's related to Voldermort.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
The only obvious WW2 thing I see is that Grindelwald was from Continental Europe, and had a German name. Also, the duel between Dumbledore and Grindelwald takes place in 1945.
Edit: whoops, never mind. That was meant for the Potter thread on Ornery, which makes sense, come to think of it.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Yeah, but he decended from a different Peverell, the one that was considered good.
I'm still upset we found out so little about James's homelife.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Yeah, we never found out what James did for a living.
Can someone tell me what chapter Lupin dies in? I can't find it and I don't remember when it says it first.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Lupin died in the final battle before Harry "dies". that's either the last or the next-to-last chapter, I don't have my copy here at the house.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Yeah, we never found out what James did for a living.
Can someone tell me what chapter Lupin dies in? I can't find it and I don't remember when it says it first.
Dood He had rich parents. He didn't know the meaning of the word "work" I think.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I didn't mean what he did for a living, though that would be interesting. I meant what his parents were like, why they were dead, what they did possibly. I'm not entirely convinced they were rich, they were rich by the standards of an 11 year old boy judging in money that he knew nothing about, and didn't really have to live off of. For hogwarts he needed money for supplies and for the train those first three years. Maybe they were rich, maybe he just didn't understand.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie: I'm curious as to thoughts on Pettigrew's death. For me, it was blatantly obvious that it was a result of the life debt owed to Harry via Harry's refusal to let Wormtail be killed in PoA. Based on various discussions, I appear to be alone in this consideration.
Thoughts?
I know the discussion has long since moved on, but I am fascinated by the severed hand motif. It is our hands that do things; they are how we shape the world. But when our hands are severed from our bodies, we can no longer control our circumstances. The severed hand makes for a powerful image of powerlessness. Watch for it, it is everywhere, from traffic signs to pop culture to Shakespeare and the Bible to ancient mythologies.
Harry Potter has several severed hand references, but the most blatant is Wormtail. In the beginning, when he is only serving Voldemort out of fear and is not yet ready to yield quite all of his choices to the Dark Lord, he cuts off one of his fingers. But by the end of Goblet of Fire, he is ready to surrender all of his will to Voldemort. He cuts off not just a single finger, but his whole hand.* Voldemort in return gives him a silver hand. Wormtail's hand is now Voldemort's hand; Wormtail's will is now Voldemort's will.
In Deathly Hallows, Pettigrew's brief flicker of remorse, his slight attempt to resist Voldemort's will is too little too late. His hand is still Voldemort's hand, and when he attempts to use that hand for his own purposes, the hand turns on him and chokes everything out of him.
Everything played out just so abso-positively-lutely perfectly that I have to admit that scene is one of my very favorite in the whole book.
*I am still majorly POed that the movie makers cut off the Wrong Hand!!!! Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Yeah, we never found out what James did for a living.
Can someone tell me what chapter Lupin dies in? I can't find it and I don't remember when it says it first.
Dood He had rich parents. He didn't know the meaning of the word "work" I think.
James' parents were rich? Where does it say that?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It was an old wizarding family, and they left Harry a considerable amount of money, but that doesn't mean they were rich per se, especially not rich enough to live solely off James' inheritance.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
As far as I know the only mentions of James's parents were that harry recieved money and when Sirius says he stayed with them after he left Grimauld place.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I know, but if I understood Syn correctly she was saying that James never worked because he received a huge inheritance from his parents. I was wondering where this was mentioned, I don't remember at all reading that Harry's grandparents were rich.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I feel like Rowling has said before that James was the only son of two very rich parents who had him late in life and spoiled him rotten. So that's his deal.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I got the impression that the amount of gold left, while sufficient for him to get through school without having to take shortcuts, buy used, or cut corners, was not enough for him to just go crazy or last him forever. This was due to a reference in book 3 to Harry's longing to buy the firebolt while he was staying in the Leaky Cauldron...something about (sorry, this is from memory) he had to remind himself how it would feel to ask the Dursleys for money for robes and potions materials to keep himself from buying....[insert several things]...but the biggest temptation came in the window of "Quality Quiddish Supplies"..."
Anyway, that was why I got the impression that he had enough to very comfortably last him through school and get him started in life but not enough to live off of forever.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
It also entirely likely that the money left to him was not entirely from James... if your community had a suddenly orphaned child, wouldn't you take up a collection for him? It also sat in Gringotts for 10 years, presumably gathering interest.
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
quote:MA: What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?
JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.
Wow. I'm all...shaky.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Scott, what did you think of Snape's exposition chapter?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I've heard a small amount of grumbling (here and in real life) about the dialogue between Harry and Voldemort at the end. I just wanted to say for the record that I loved it. I often don't buy that kind of talk right before the kill but I did in this book and I cheered Harry along as he called Voldemort, "Tom Riddle." I had kind of hoped that would happen. I bought it from Harry's point of view because he was trying to give Voldemort the chance to feel some remorse -- to explain what had happened and show him he was wrong. I bought Voldemort listening to it because he was flummoxed. He had just hit Harry squarely with the second killing curse and for the second time, had failed to actually kill him. I think he was frightened and trying to work things out. In part, Harry may have been playing on that, too -- psyching him out a bit with his talk.
Anyway, just wanted to say that for the record.
[ July 25, 2007, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I liked it, too. It was so nice to see Harry have the upper hand for once!
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"flu maxed"
I believe that's spelled "flummoxed".
Your spelling was entertaining though. Did you have a little internal explanation worked out for your spelling?
Posted by heifertipper (Member # 10612) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I submitted a question. I hope I can remember to attend the chat. Let's see, BST, if it's Greenwich time, is... 9 a.m. our time. That's probably not likely to work well for me, but one never knows.
I also submitted a question to JK, but I wondered if anyone else could answer it just in case it gets overlooked.
I am really confused about the whole Fidelius charm and why Snape couldn't lead the other death eaters into Grimuald's Place. Now Mad Eye put a tongue tying curse on anyone who entered the house but the Fidelius charm spread out onto the porch step and Hermione was able to show Yaxley where Grimuald's place was just by showing him the door as they were disapperating. Doesn't that mean that Snape could have side-apperated anyone onto the porch and revealed the secret and therefore allowing anyone in? Snape was just as much a secret keeper as anyone else and the tongue binding charm didn't come into play until you walked through the door. Now it makes sense that the death eaters couldn't get it because we all know Snape would not have let them in, but the trio would not have trusted that. The death eaters probably did not know that Dumbledore was the secret keeper so they wouldn't have assumed Snape would now be one of the 20 new secret keepers, but if Snape had been actually an enemy, he could have led them in without a problem. He got in quite easily after the charms were in place because we know he took the last part of Lily's letter after he killed Dumbledore. It just doesn't make sense why they thought they were safe.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
never mind
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Noemon--
I thought that it was a little forced. All this battle going on, Voldemort says you have one hour, and Harry runs away to instinctively stick his head in the Pensieve? I'm okay with him doing that, I just didn't buy his reasons for doing so. (He didn't have a reason...in fact much of the last half of the book was Harry relying on instinct, which annoyed me a bit).
I wasn't thrilled about the memories-of-Snape chapter; I'd pretty much figured that Snape was in love with Lilly back in book...I guess two or three. But I didn't find that chapter as dull as the King's Cross chapter.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Something that occurred to me about King's Cross today is whether Dumbledore waited there to talk to Harry, if he hadn't quite died yet himself. He also didn't appear from the resurrection stone, while Lupin did. But his portrait appeared, which was always the proof that he was really dead.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We've had Hogwarts students disarmed left and right since book two. Why do y'all think that their wands never change allegiances and became less useful to the owner? Because the original owners kept using them? If Dumbledore had stayed alive after being defeated by Draco, would he have remained the master of the Elder Wand?
----
Why does everybody assume that the Kings Cross scene was a dream/imaginary? I'm assuming that the stuff that Dumbledore told Harry was true and came from Dumbledore himself, and not just something that Harry made up.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: We've had Hogwarts students disarmed left and right since book two. Why do y'all think that their wands never change allegiances and became less useful to the owner?
What makes you think any other wand has this property? It appears to be unique to the Elder Wand. Other wands "choose their owners."
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Why does everybody assume that the Kings Cross scene was a dream/imaginary? I'm assuming that the stuff that Dumbledore told Harry was true and came from Dumbledore himself, and not just something that Harry made up.
I agree. In fact, Dumbledore said as much!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What makes you think any other wand has this property?
Because Harry and Hermione weren't able to effectively use other people's wands that they hadn't won (the blackthorn wand and Bellatrix's wand), but Harry was able to effectively use Draco's normal wand after he defeated him.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Just wanted to check in and say that I finished. Great ending! I'd participate but I can't slog through 7 pages right now. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Does anyone else think a book from Neville's perspective of his year as a rebel leader at Hogwarts would be pretty good? It would only have to synch up with the DH plot at a few points (mostly the end).
I would love to read Potter's Shadow. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:What makes you think any other wand has this property?
Because Harry and Hermione weren't able to effectively use other people's wands that they hadn't won (the blackthorn wand and Bellatrix's wand), but Harry was able to effectively use Draco's normal wand after he defeated him.
Actually, Harry did much better with the blackthorn than the other. It seemed to me a question of incompatible personalities much more than anything else.
Much as Harry hates it, he and Draco are actually alike in many ways.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How did he do better with the blackthorn wand? He used Draco's wand very effectively through all the action chapters at the end of the book. What did he do with the blackthorn wand?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok, I take it back. I re-read some significant passages (most notably Ollivander on p.493), and it is the taking that is significant. He specifies that "when a wand has been won, its allegiance may change." However, he also qualifies that with "de4pends on the manner of taking" and "depends on the wand itself." So, any wand in the past that was taken by Expelliarmus may or may not have switched allegiance.
I expect that if it were part of a classroom exercise, it wouldn't. Also, much was made of the fact that Harry tends to use this particular spell much more than others, who prefer stunning or killing.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Also, allegiance switching doesn't mean the wand is useless... just that it's not at it's full functionality. Voldemort uses the Elder wand effectively but finds that it's no different than any other wand for him. Harry just has particular problems with the one which leads them to delve into the question of wand allegiance.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I actually had to think about the whole wand switching allegiance thing a bit too. I mean, any practice session in school might put you in danger of losing your wand! But I think that wands are a bit more intelligent about it than that and even -- that if you are disarmed but manage to get your wand *back* that it knows and prefers its original master. Like they said, it depends upon the manner of the disarming. When Harry took Draco's wand it was completely against Draco's will in a battle situation and Harry was grabbing for keeps. The blackthorn wand, on the other hand, probably would have worked for Ron (who bested its owner to get it) but for Harry, it couldn't work.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Can someone tell me how Draco Malfoy ended up?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
A lot of what was happening with Harry and the Blackthorn wand was his belief that his phoenix feather wand was exceptional and had allowed him to survive the duel at the end of book 4. He worried that a lot of his "talent" lay in that wand.
I'm still not sure what happened when his wand attacked Voldemort on its own in the first battle. I know it was explained. I just didn't quite understand it. Seizing Draco's wand mattered because Draco was master of the Elder Wand, I think.
quote:Why does everybody assume that the Kings Cross scene was a dream/imaginary? I'm assuming that the stuff that Dumbledore told Harry was true and came from Dumbledore himself, and not just something that Harry made up.
Because Rowling said people can't come back from the dead. I don't mean it was a dream in the sense that it was a figment of his imagination. He went to a metaphysical location where he was able to talk to someone who was dead. As I mentioned before, I don't think he was the master of all death, just that he posessed an escape from Avada Kedavara. Otherwise this is Harry Potter and The Green Mile, no?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Can someone tell me how Draco Malfoy ended up?
Balding.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Big haired boys make very good friends but they cannot compare to bald headed men... Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
But some people are simply unable to play; they have lost the faculty; it has atrophied, or stiffened up with age. I used to be able to bend my back so far I could touch the back of my head with my toes. I can't do that now. So I understand those who take no delight in fairy tales or fantasies. I pity you, but in truth, Harry Potter is not for you. Go back to reading stock reports or instruction manuals or whatever you do with your unfantastical mind.
You tell 'em!
[ July 26, 2007, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: He also reads female voices – or at least young female voices – with a sort of lingering whine at the ends of sentences.
The combination means that whenever he reads Hermione saying, "Harry!" – which she says a lot – it comes out like baby talk: "Hawweeeeee." This is really unfortunate. In fact, I daresay Dale's reading of young women is the weakest part of his performance.
YES! Thanks, Mr. Card. I complained about this for weeks after listening to PoA and GoF on a long car trip. My best friend and I still call each other "Hawwee" when we're whining about something.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Beverly and I do the same thing.
Truth to tell, I don't care for Stephen Fry's reading (in the UK version of the audio books) reading of girls any better.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Good, makes excellent points, but he bothers me so much when he goes on about elitists because I really don't understand what that means! You do have cynical people who say, "No, I won't read it, it's a children's book" But I think most of the books intended for children are the best books ever. Way better than these frustratingly bitter adult novels that are dark and cynical and have too many descriptions of bodily functions.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Warning: Long post ahead! I read the whole thread and assembled responses all in one post.
quote:I wish someone would have offed Umbridge. I think I would have killed her myself for mounting Moody's eye on her door. She has to be evilest character in the book save Voldemort.
In some ways, I find Umbridge to be far more evil than Voldemort. I think I say that because for me Voldemort had become a very flat sort of character—appropriate for a being who had shattered his soul into 7 pieces. It was like he was just an echo if the hate and rage of the original Tom Riddle and nothing more. It was almost an animalistic, instinctive sort of evil. Umbridge—she was fully human. I hold her more responsible for understanding how evil she was, therefore more accountable for it, therefore more evil.
quote:The only thing I would have wanted was a little more back ground information on what happened afterward. Did the trio go back to school the next year?
Heh. I saw this, and I wondered to myself if anyone was going to accuse Rowling of being anti-school. You've got Fred and George who left early to go on to a glorious career as entrepreneurs, Harry, Ron and Hermione skipping out on their last year, and the school was horribly controlling under both Umbridge and (I can't say Snape) who were those two again? Seeing as I am about to embark on a homeschooling journey myself, I can't help chuckling a little. But Hogwarts overall was portrayed as a wonderfully fun, exciting place to be.
quote:I think the reason Kreacher didn't apparate Regulus out of there was because he was following his orders to a T, and couldn't have known if Regulus would want him to interfere or not.
Agreed! We have to remember that these elves don't think the way we do, as was made clear when Kreacher embraced evil ideologies that were held by his masters because they were kind to him, and rejected ideologies of the family member who was unkind. While Dobby's efforts to save Harry in a previous book (don't remember which) were made of his own “free” will, Kreacher may have been so beside himself with grief that coming up with alternate solutions would have been completely beyond him. As for Kreacher being prepared ahead of time, if he was anticipating anything it was probably having to drink the potion again himself. Just as it wouldn't occur to him to disapperate to save himself the first time, it wouldn't occur to him to bring water for himself the second time.
quote:One thing that I would liked to see in the epilogue was Uncle Dudley showing up to help send his favorite nephew off to Hogwarts.
That would have been a nice touch.
quote:Who was the person who would do magic late in life under extraordinary circumstances?
I would've liked to have seen this person be Petunia. She was bitter and jealous that she did not have powers of her own.
quote:I was a bit let down by the epilogue. We didn't learn anything about the futures of the characters, really. We knew Harry would marry Ginny and have children, but what did he end up doing?
I have thought about this myself, and I like that it comes away with the message that family is what is lastingly important—the things wisdom and confidence Harry passes on to his son, that is what matters most.
quote:I think the biggest thing that bothered me about the epilogue is that we didn't find out anything IMPORTANT. Chiefly among these is what the heck are Harry, Hermione, Ginny, and Ron DOING with their lives? Do they all just sit at home and raise their children?
I happen to think that raising one's children is the more important than one's profession. Rowling doesn't seem nearly as interested in telling us what her characters end up doing as setting up the next generation. Not that I think she is setting up for a new series, but that this is important to completing her storytelling. I'm OK with Rowling deciding what is and is not important on this matter.
(from the Epilogue thread)
quote:The reason for the off-camera wedding, deaths, discoveries, and the lightweight epilogue is obvious: J.K clearly left huge wide-open areas for fanficcers to leap merrily into. I anticipate lengthy, conflicting explanations of each of these scenes and lots of "Harry Potter: The Missing Years" stories to keep those fan sites active for years to come.
Ha!
quote:Voldster didn't seem to be very surprised when Harry wasn't dead again.. I suppose he got use to being a failure in that area.
Yeesh. The boy who lived, indeed! Survived the killing curse from the most powerful of dark wizards three times, all without raising a hand to defend himself.
quote:I don't like how there wasn't much of a 'reaction' factor for Harry after watching Snape's memories.
Amen! For that reason, I was deeply touched when I learned he'd named a son after him and told his son what a courageous person he was. :sniff:
quote:I was a "Snape is Good" man, and got totally suckered in... I spent the first 3/4 of the book thinking "oh well... guess I was wrong about him... maybe she was too busy wiht other plot twists and couldn't find the time to write him a little more complexity... pity." Then he gave Harry his memories and... wow, what a great chapter that was.
Me too, me too! :grin:
You know, I was so certain that the silver doe was from Ginny. Just as Tonks' petronus turned into a wolf after she fell in love with Lupin, it made sense to me that regardless of any previous mention of Ginny's petronus (if there had been any) it could easily have turned into the natural mate of a stag.
I must declare, I was very disappointed that Ginny didn't have her amazing moment of heroism or crucial roll to play. All we hear of her doing is trying to steal the fake sword of Griffondor—and even that failed. -_- I am hoping that just as the fifth HP movie slipped in some precious moments between Harry and Sirius, the seventh movie will give us a little more gratifying Ginnyness.
quote:I wonder how much of Snape's memories Alan Rickman will be able to play. I guess he wears quite a bit of makeup anyway.
My guess is they will use the same young actor they used in the fifth movie's flashbacks.
quote: I wish the Snape story arch could have been told throughout the book instead of all at once. I’m not sure how it could have been done, but after book 6 I figured he would play a much more central roll in book 7.
I'm not exactly sure what I think, but this did cause me much consternation! Because I was a firm “Snape is Good” believer, I was having a really hard time with them leaving that so long to the end. Now that I know, I imagine it will just enrich the whole experience when I reread the books.
quote:Snape only regretted his actions when they led to Lily's death. Where is the remorse for all the other deaths that occurred at his hands or because of information he gave Voldemort when he really was working for him? Not until he was dead / about to die do we see real remorse.
I agree with you, Snape was not a large-hearted man, to be sure! But my heart aches for him all the same. When people grow up so tortured, often their ability to love is stunted for life.
quote:For whatever reason, I have had an affinity for Snape since book one, which had added gravity to every scene/event involving him since then. Every mean thing he did seemed rather petty and superficial while every good thing he did was quietly heroic. To me, that implied he was hiding something much deeper, tortured even, in his personality. After book six I felt convinced that Lily had been the object of his affection. I couldn't think of anything else that completed the puzzle more smoothly.
Well said.
I thought Snape's last statement: “Look at me” was giving Harry unlimited permission to see and understand who Snape really was, rather than just to know that he was supposed to die. I thought it was a last, overt sign of the affection he had developed for the more grown-up, ennobled Harry Potter.
quote:As an afterthought I almost think Rowling added it so that she could have Harry make a more personal statement about Snape.
Quite possible. And appealing to those of us who think this epic tale was as much Snape's as Harry's.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly:
quote:Who was the person who would do magic late in life under extraordinary circumstances?
I would've liked to have seen this person be Petunia. She was bitter and jealous that she did not have powers of her own.
That would have made Dumbledore either a liar or a fool for telling her that she didn't have any magical abilities when she wrote to him.
When Snape said "look at me" I half expected him to say "take off my helmet".
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:In some ways, I find Umbridge to be far more evil than Voldemort. I think I say that because for me Voldemort had become a very flat sort of character—appropriate for a being who had shattered his soul into 7 pieces. It was like he was just an echo if the hate and rage of the original Tom Riddle and nothing more. It was almost an animalistic, instinctive sort of evil. Umbridge—she was fully human. I hold her more responsible for understanding how evil she was, therefore more accountable for it, therefore more evil
So totally agree.
And I loved the epilogue.
(I got home last night, ripped open the book, read for three hours despite being exhausted, and was able to finish it this afternoon while Bridey took a nap.)
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:That would have made Dumbledore either a liar or a fool for telling her that she didn't have any magical abilities when she wrote to him.
I was allowing for the possibility that she didn't have them when they corresponded and developed them later. The statement from Rowling seemed to suggest a "late bloomer" under unusual circumstances.
quote:This is really unfortunate. In fact, I daresay Dale's reading of young women is the weakest part of his performance.
Ugh. Agreed. But I also find some of his acting off the mark. Sometimes he just "gets it wrong." But he is so charismatic, so entertaining, that I enjoy his reading in spite of these flaws. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We've never seen anything like that in any of the books. Either a person is a witch/wizard, a squib, a muggle, or non-human. There really isn't any grey area.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Does anyone else find it oddly presumptuous that OSC is making such detailed predictions about Rowling's future actions?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Anyone want to bet on whether we'll get another Harry Potter story before we get another Lord of the Rings book?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly: Does anyone else find it oddly presumptuous that OSC is making such detailed predictions about Rowling's future actions?
No more presumptuous than when I've made predictions about what she'll do next.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I enjoyed reading his predictions. I'm thinking there is a bit of OSC's own experiences after writing his first bestseller (Ender's Game) projected onto JK.
Edit:
For example:
quote: that Harry Potter was somehow of a lesser breed because it was written in such a way as to include children in its audience)
Sub Ender's Game for HP, and maybe OSC once read a review criticizing EG for being accessible to children and these were his thoughts.
He then goes on a rant about how if she chooses to go back to HP world, she shouldn't feel like she's retreating and that it is a mark of failure. Ender sequels and Shadow series, maybe?
----- I kind of came up with this whole idea as I'm writing this post.
Edit again:
quote: In fact, she will write an inventive new children's novel – a standalone book, and not a very thick one – and take delight in inventing new worlds and exploring new characters. She will also write children's books that have no fantasy in them.
Heh. Sub political thriller for new children's novel. Sub "books with no science fiction in them" for "children's books with no fantasy in them". I think I'm onto something here.
[ July 27, 2007, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: GaalDornick ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Ah man, I finally finished the book, its 5 AM now, but just so we all know, that last 19 years later seen, David Tennant as Potter and Chris Ellericson as Ron, I know Tennant was Crouch Junior in book 4, but damnit it would seem so perfect for me, sine I am not sure if special effects are good enough to visibly age Potter to 36 years old.
Amazing how when enough people are together we could call all these endings, amazing, the book was great and a fitting end to the series, I would love to have more Potterverse books, maybe as wide ranging and all encompasing as Forgotten Realms is? Dozens of books by different authors?
Also who else imagine themselves as a recurring character when they read books?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I re-read King's Cross, Prince's Tale, and the last actual chapter last night and some things became clear for me that weren't at the end of the marathon reading. Most of these are things people have said at one point or other. Harry doesn't die. Dumbledore says "I think not" in response to his direct question.
The tormented baby thing was what used to be the horcrux of Voldemort in Harry, but as Harry later tells Voldemort, the soul still in him is like that, if not less. Dumbledore indicates that in describing the creation of the horcrux in Harry.
Harry is healed of the connection between him and Voldemort when Voldemort AK's him. Whether he would know parselmouth at that point is a question.
Harry's motivation for looking at Snape's memories was Snape looking into his eyes. I felt less that Snape's death had been ironically pointless.
The problem is now I have to go back and read the story of the 3 brothers. Much more hazardous in terms of not being able to stop
Oh, yeah, I was going to say Lily probably changed her mind about James when he saved Snape from Sirius' prank. She began to find him not reprehensible then, except when he inverted Severus, but at that point Severus blew it, and James started being humble.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I now see that the Snape chapter was the heart of the book, which was about remorse. It is immediately preceded by Voldemort saying "I regret it." which I take to me he is sorry to have lost a valued lieutenant. He only has concern for what his action has cost him, none for what it cost his victim.
In reading the final showdown, I wondered if Harry couldn't have done a better job in encouraging Tom's remorse than to say "arise from the dust and become a man" (as it were). He could have called on the regret over killing Snape. Well, catching the elder wand will be a classic cinematic moment, so I guess I can overlook it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote: that Harry Potter was somehow of a lesser breed because it was written in such a way as to include children in its audience)
Sub Ender's Game for HP, and maybe OSC once read a review criticizing EG for being accessible to children and these were his thoughts.
But OSC didn't write EG for children.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
This makes me so angry. I dont understand how anyone could be so unbelieveably cruel.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Does anyone else find it oddly presumptuous that OSC is making such detailed predictions about Rowling's future actions?
I mean, yes, but wouldn't you agree that OSC has a sort of uncanny way of extrapolating the development of human character? I think that's why I like his books so much. (Not that Rowling is a "character" but that she has character.)
Plus, did you read his Snape essay? I thought it was spot-on. There was even more presumption in there.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I am borrowing a comment from someone on another forum. I really liked it and want to share it with y'all:
quote:After many losses, I was very glad that there was such a resounding victory on the side of good. One of my main complaints (although they are few) about LOTR is the way that good always seems the poor cousin of evil. Just barely surviving being wiped out... just barely snatching certain death from the jaws of victory.
I have often thought this--many stories make evil so much more powerful than good. That has always bothered me a little. At first I was annoyed by the overwhelming power Harry had over Voldemort. I thought to myself, was Harry ever really in danger from Voldemort? Was there ever really a danger?
But the more I think of it, the more I like the way she tells the story. His triumph was in becoming the sort of person Dumbledore was hoping, trying for. But Harry chose it, in spite of the many, many times he was tempted and almost chose otherwise. He chose to be truly, and resoundingly GOOD. And in that choice, he dispelled evil, it had no power over him, and that protection even spread to those he loved. Beautiful, just beautiful!
quote:Plus, did you read his Snape essay? I thought it was spot-on. There was even more presumption in there.
You know, I started reading it, but I never finished it. I imagine if Card is spot-on with his thoughts on Rowling, I'd be amazed and impressed rather than annoyed. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Except this protection everyone was talking about wasn't all that obvious. He was still dueling 3 wizards at once, Neville escaped the hat, Hagrid appeared at times to be under the imperius curse. There were a couple of hints about his muffliato not sticking. I think Rowling didn't really choose as she should have whether Harry was protecting them or not. It points for me to the possibility that she changed her mind late in the game about Harry not dying. I definitely see where he says it, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Except this protection everyone was talking about wasn't all that obvious. He was still dueling 3 wizards at once, Neville escaped the hat, Hagrid appeared at times to be under the imperius curse. There were a couple of hints about his muffliato not sticking. I think Rowling didn't really choose as she should have whether Harry was protecting them or not. It points for me to the possibility that she changed her mind late in the game about Harry not dying. I definitely see where he says it, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Why was it supposed to be obvious? In the case of Harry as a baby, he used the killing curse and the protection had to work its magic, but Voldemort never tried a killing curse (as far as I could tell). It seems obvious to me that it wasn't just some silly "none of your spells will work on me" protection. I mean, silencing the crowd isn't really hurting them. On the other hand, when the crowd grew outraged they were able to break the silence with the help of the protection.
Personally, I'm glad it wasn't just a bold line in the sand kind of protection or it would have made the rest of the book kinda boring. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Except when Voldemort blast three dudes off their feet... what was that, psychosomatic on their part? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. Then again, I could see where it's supposed to be the whole big point. I don't know. I wish I understood how it fit in with the creation of the Deathly Hallows.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That actually reminds me of one of my favorite lines from the book: Voldemort, grumbling about how his new wand hasn't been exhibiting particularly powerful magic, observes "I am exceptional, of course. But..."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Except when Voldemort blast three dudes off their feet... what was that, psychosomatic on their part?
Voldemort used Cruciatus on Harry even when he was protected. It's not as though the protection makes people invulnerable.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
So I bought it on impulse last night, even though I could've just waited another day to borrow it from a friend. But I bought it, got home around ... 10ish, started reading around 11 (PM), finished at 5:50 AM. 6 hours isn't that bad, is it? Anyone keeping track of who read it the fastest?
I haven't read this whole thread yet (I'm a wee bit tired ), but my initial thought is that I liked the 6th one better. It seemed like the big climactic battle and all that jazz was really ... congested. I will say I liked it. Definitely wasn't disappointed. I really liked Snape's memories, I sort of liked the whole "Deathly Hallows" plot, I loved Neville being so freaking cool ... I liked a lot of it. I'm disappointed that neither of the big 3 died (Ron, Hermione, or Harry). Well, technically Harry died, but not really. And Hagrid didn't die either. Or Ginny. I mean, come on ... Mad Eye, Fred, Remus, and Tonks? That's the best she could do?
The main part I'm still undecided about is whether or not I enjoyed the questing nature of the book. I mean, I enjoyed it immensely, but I'm not sure I appreciate it. The other 6 really weren't as quest oriented. I don't know the right words to describe it, but this one, with the Ministry of Magic, the Gringott's incident, Malfoy's house, Godric's Hollow, Gryffindor's sword, etc etc ... It was different. I will say I kept thinking "This will make one freaking awesome movie. Or two."
Last thing - Did the Ministry of Magic part strike anyone else like a computer game? I kept on picture Ron, Harry, and Hermione as blockish little figures on a screen jumping to the different levels of the ministry, with dialog bubbles popping up whenever they thought or said something, and dramatic type music every time the objective changed. Maybe it was just me though.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Well, technically Harry died, but not really
Technically, he never did.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Well, technically Harry died, but not really
Technically, he never did.
It's hard to say either way. Dumbledore specifically said that Harry could choose to move on to the next life or go back and defeat Voldemort.
He was not dead, but I wouldn't say he was alive just as he'd always been the rest of the books. Had Harry opted to move on to the next life what difference would have taken place in his body?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:He was not dead
If he was not dead, then it's pretty easy to say he hadn't died. Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I think he died. Mostly.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*searches for loose change*
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Reports of Harry Potter's death have been greatly exaggerated.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It was a near-death experience.
Whether he fully died and came back or was just in a coma for a while seems a bit irrelevant to me.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"That actually reminds me of one of my favorite lines from the book: Voldemort, grumbling about how his new wand hasn't been exhibiting particularly powerful magic, observes "I am exceptional, of course. But...""
Tom, it sounds like you're training to be Voldemort. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think he would have had to choose whether or not he wanted to "go back" if he hadn't "gone" in the first place.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: I don't think he would have had to choose whether or not he wanted to "go back" if he hadn't "gone" in the first place.
Actually, I did not get the impression that his choice was to go back or not...I got the impression that it was to go ON or not. In this case, I think it's more than a half full/half empty distinction. He was alive, but in a position to choose to end it all right then or to stay and fight. Or maybe I'm reading it weird. Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly
But the more I think of it, the more I like the way she tells the story. His triumph was in becoming the sort of person Dumbledore was hoping, trying for. But Harry chose it, in spite of the many, many times he was tempted and almost chose otherwise. He chose to be truly, and resoundingly GOOD. And in that choice, he dispelled evil, it had no power over him, and that protection even spread to those he loved. Beautiful, just beautiful!
My favorite HP theory is the alchemy theory. I personally can't explain it very well, so I would like to quote a few paragraphs from an essay written just before HBP came out by a HP friend (Elanor on the HP Lexicon forum).
quote:There is not only one definition of alchemy but several. First, alchemists were searching for the Philosopher’s Stone, a transformational object used to transform base metals into silver and gold and also to provide universal medical cure for illnesses, “the Elixir of Life,” made thanks to the stone. But alchemy didn’t consist of laboratory work alone. It was also a personal quest as the Alchemists’ main aim was the ennoblement of the soul, symbolized by the ennoblement of the matter.
So, the Philosopher’s stone is not only an object but also the symbol of the journey the alchemist made to obtain it. This journey was the true reward because it gave him knowledge (he was supposed to have understood the mysteries of Nature), hence wisdom, and made him a better human being. This is what the alchemists called “the philosophical gold”: their own spiritual transformation was the true gold sought, the real Philosopher’s Stone. The symbol of this alchemical journey can be very rich when applied to Harry’s, and to other characters’, transformation in the books.
This last book was the red book, the gold book, the book where Harry's spiritual transformation was complete.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I've skipped a bunch of posts, and now I have to go to bed (It's way too late as it is), so I'll be lazy.
Did any of you watch Rowling's interviews on the 'Today Show'?
She named the character she 'saved', and the two unexpected deaths.
There's also going to be a big interview on 'Dateline' this coming Sunday night. I'm pretty sure somebody's posted all of this already. But, oh well. I'd rather have it posted twice, than risk not posting it at all.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nathan2006: I've skipped a bunch of posts, and now I have to go to bed (It's way too late as it is), so I'll be lazy.
Did any of you watch Rowling's interviews on the 'Today Show'?
She named the character she 'saved', and the two unexpected deaths.
There's also going to be a big interview on 'Dateline' this coming Sunday night. I'm pretty sure somebody's posted all of this already. But, oh well. I'd rather have it posted twice, than risk not posting it at all.
Yeah, I watched it. I had already figured out who the 2 additional deaths were, although not the one she'd saved because she saved that person in a previous book. After watching the interview, I thought that in all 3 cases she should have stuck to the outline. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Heh heh, spacepook is reading it now, and just read that Snape is the new headmaster.
[/Do Not Want!]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hey now. What's with the lack of info? This is a spoiler thread, after all!
Tell me straight out, who wasn't she gonna kill and who was she gonna kill originally?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly: Hey now. What's with the lack of info? This is a spoiler thread, after all!
Tell me straight out, who wasn't she gonna kill and who was she gonna kill originally?
If you don't want to know who Rowling was going to kill/not going to kill, stop reading. (Just in case)
... ... ...
She was going to kill Arthur Weasley back in book 5. She wasn't planning to kill Lupin and Tonks. Personally, after reading how Snape died especially, I find it a bit unrealistic that Arthur didn't die in book 5.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Oh wow! The saving was from a previous book!
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
quote:Originally posted by beverly: Hey now. What's with the lack of info? This is a spoiler thread, after all!
Tell me straight out, who wasn't she gonna kill and who was she gonna kill originally?
Hehe.
I just wanted to hear people beg for it. <Evil laugh>
quote:Originally Posted by Christine: She was going to kill Arthur Weasley back in book 5. She wasn't planning to kill Lupin and Tonks.
Gee thanks, Christine. Thunder stealer!
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
First of all, thank you Hatrack for allowing me to finish reading the book spoiler free!
I've finally read through this whole thread. I don't want to duplicate a lot of previous discussion--you have already covered most of my thoughts.
However, many of you early on said the long scenes in the woods were too long. I thought precisely the opposite. I loved that they were just stumped and didn't know what to do to fulfill the mission they'd committed themselves to. That is so like life: confusing, frustrating, often boring and uncomfortable. I was an LDS missionary, and I sure had plenty of "I know I'm supposed to be doing something really important but I just am not sure how" moments.
I loved that the Horcrux that was torturing Ron contained his doubts in the form of Harry and Hermione. Self-doubt is one of the hugest of obstacles to overcome. I loved that they were getting on each others' nerves. Sure, it was hard to read, but it was real to me. (At one point I sent a HARRY IS SUCH AN IDIOT! email to a friend of mine when I couldn't stand his obsession to go after the hallows when Ron and Hermione were obviously right.)
Oh, and JKR wrote "sycophantically" again (as in "Ron said, sycophantically"). I can't remember if it was GoF or OotP, but she used that adverb once before and it leaped off the page and made me roll my eyes the first time. When I saw it again in this book, I just thought, "oh, please, no." /nitpick
Overall, I thought it was a great end to a great series.
[ July 29, 2007, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Uprooted ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What's wrong with the word 'sycophantically'?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If you have to ask, I can't explain it to you.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If you don't explain it to me, I have to ask.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote: "Good, good," said Umbridge, watching Ginny's struggles. "Well, it looks as though Hogwarts will shortly be a Weasley-free zone, doesn't it?" Malfoy laughed loudly and sycophantically.
Hmm, how do I explain how bad that sounds to me? It's like it just leaps off the page and yells "I am a silly, made up adverb!" Part of it is that it's a violation of the "show, don't tell" school of writing--if you want to get across that Malfoy is acting like a sycophant, then work on describing the behavior to the reader, don't name it. The use of the word totally distracted me both times I read it.
Like I said, it's a nitpick. I can't tell a story nearly as well as JKR does.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I guess I really am a nitpicker, because I expected to google the word "sycophantically" and find a ton of hits making fun of her use of the word. I didn't. When I narrowed the search terms to sycophantically and Rowling, I was surprised that the two major types of comments that I found were: "Hooray for Rowling's refusal to dumb down her vocabulary for children!" or "You shouldn't use big words like 'sycophantically' in a book for children!" (I would definitely fall into the former camp if vocabulary alone were the issue here.)
Anyway, I did find a couple of reviews that included comments explaining more or less what I was trying to say:
quote: The action scenes make "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" a page-turner, but the expository dialogue makes it a doorstop. Rowling's gotten better at writing action scenes, but her habit of using unnecessary adverbs is almost terminal. In a 30-page stretch, people say something earnestly, sycophantically, dogmatically, pedantically and cautiously. Screaming "Just say it!" won't work. Rowling loves adverbs as much as she loves ellipses and dashes and italics, and almost as much as she loves having two characters face off and fill each other in on the plot.
link (I must to confess to some of the the same addictions--case in point, it's practically impossible for me to write w/o dashes, ellipses, and italics. Oh, and parentheses. And fragments.)
quote: Ravenous fans and higher-than-ever stakes aside, the book has its flaws. Rowling still discounts the ability of her audience to read between the lines and leaves no subtlety to the imagination (to a righteously angry Hermione, “‘Yeah,’ said Ron sycophantically”);
Anyway, I'm not sure why that particular adverb rubbed me the wrong way above all the others. But it did.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Rowling does overuse adverbs. It is her greatest stylistic weakness and at times has made me cringe. She doesn't have enough confidence in her own dialogue and feels the need to qualify the manner of the speaking. Well-written dialogue speaks for itself most of the time and adverbs become redundant.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That said, I don't mind most excessive adverb use. It's not like it makes the book appreciably longer to read or anything. *shrug*
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
It never bugged me until OSC and later Stephen King complained about it. Now I notice it.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
If it's a good story, and if the writing is decent, I generally won't notice most writing tics like that on a first read. I'm reading for story, and the words don't get in the way unless they get in the way.
I don't remember whether I started being bugged by JKR's adverb overuse because I noticed them on my own, or, like steven, I read a review or comment on a forum that pointed it out.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
This reminds me of when I first read Book 6. The first time it said "surreptitiously," I had to look it up. Then I found the word being used several more times throughout the book, which startled me as I hadn't really known this obsession with that particular adverb to be in any previous books. When I read the book through the second time, my bookmark was a Post-It note that I tallied every time I saw the word "surreptitiously." I counted five.
In Book 7, there was only one time that adverb was used.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't really care, but she says "indeed" a lot. This could be because she's British.
I like the word surreptitiously. Then there is osentatious to consider and various word from high school like assuage and commisserate and also enervate that are spiffy too. Some of them are mispelled, but it's too early in the morning to spell correctly.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
It's never to earley to spel correctly.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
"Breathlessly" is my least favorite word in the series. They all tend to lose their breath a lot....especially Hermione.
I noticed the adverb usage before anyone pointed it out to me, although it annoyed me *more* after people started talking about it. The truth is that a good story can overcome so-so writing and Harry Potter is the most positive proof of that I've ever seen. The writing isn't bad -- bad writing will get in the way of a story -- but it's not good, either. In this case, better writing wouldn't have improved the story but I do think it would have improved the reader's experience reading the story. There are a number of times when I'm reading the books that I only experience events in my head rather than my heart. Good writing strikes an emotional chord when, for example, a boy's godfather and father figure dies. I never felt that death. I never felt we got enough of Harry's internal reactions to the things that happened to him. I often think this is why book 5 didn't work for people, because we saw his external reactions (anger) without enough of what was going on inside. Even though I like that book, it took a second read and my own head filling in a lot of the internal struggle in order for me to really get it.
She also didn't do a good job in the romance department. The "monster inside Harry's chest" thing in book 6 made me cringe to read. But that's what I mean about not really getting inside him to show us what's going on -- she used a childish metaphor to keep us at arm's length.
Edited to ad: On the other hand, there are times when she does a terrific job with the emotion and the experience of it all -- such as Harry marching to his death. That was her best bit of writing ever, IMHO.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
oops double post
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I never really noticed the use of adverbs. I guess it wasn't obvious enough for me to see it without having it pointed out. I get engrossed in the story when I'm reading, and only read each book once.
But I do feel the presence of the author in all the stories. We never forget that she is behind the scenes pulling all the strings, giving us hints sometimes, and teasing us with red herrings other times. I think that's my one complaint about the writing in the series. The very best books usually cause me to forget all about the author and just be totally lost in the story itself, which seems to exist outside the bounds of anyone's imagination, in some eternally true form. I never could do this with the HP books.
That's why reading the history of middle earth disturbed me, I think. It showed the earlier (quite bad) versions of the LotR story and put the whole thing back into context in the author's imagination. While to me, it's realer than that, or something. Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
"I never felt that death. I never felt we got enough of Harry's internal reactions to the things that happened to him."
I'm not sure I could have tolerated any more of Harry's angst.
I liked the monster in the chest thing and didn't think it was childish at all. It seems like an accurate description to me.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The monster worked okay for me. I only notice the adverbs in the book on tape. I think when the adverb has been expressed in the reading, he should have artistic license to skip it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
anyone notice or was it my copy only that was riddled with spelling mistakes?
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I never noticed; honestly, I skim over them most of the time. Just like said, exclaimed, screamed, yelled, whispered, asked, and answered.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I think I actually noticed one spelling error. It was something like substituting "too" for "to", although that wasn't it exactly.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: "I never felt that death. I never felt we got enough of Harry's internal reactions to the things that happened to him."
I'm not sure I could have tolerated any more of Harry's angst.
I think you completely missed my point. The angst was present because we didn't get enough of what was really going inside Harry's head. Oh, she told us all about how angry he was feeling -- that's the angst -- but she never filled in the picture properly. Giving us more of what was really going on inside Harry's head would have, ironically, created less angst because we would have felt the anger FOR HIM rather than watching him shoot off at the mouth.
But I desist.
There have been a ton of spelling errors in the last few books. I think they went to press to quickly and without a proper copy edit.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
You'd kind of think that, with the best-selling book in the WORLD....but whatever.
I get so sick of seeing misspellings on TV commercials and on permanent 50-foot-high signs, never mind in multi-million-selling novels.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
"You'd kind of think that, with the best-selling book in the WORLD....but whatever."
I thought that was the Bible.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Christine,
Good point.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
You mean HP books 1-7 ISN'T the Bible? Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Ive noticed not only spelling errors, but grammar errors, and also sentences that had been repeated.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
"and also sentences that had been repeated."
Where?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
various pages, im wanna give it a week though before rereading to find it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Writing style is something I almost never consciously notice, for good nor ill. I am an uncultured swine.
------
quote:Part of it is that it's a violation of the "show, don't tell" school of writing
Here's an interesting quote of OSC's about that school (he said something about it again recently, IIRC, but I can't find it. This is from his Uncle Orson's Writing Class):
quote:Motivation is unshowable. It must be told. (In fact, most things must be told.) The advice "show don't tell" is applicable in only a few situations -- most times, most things, you tell-don't-show. I get so impatient with this idiotic advice that has been plaguing writers for generations.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Well, you got me there, Porter. I think he has a point when it comes to motivation. I certainly am not willing to take on OSC on how to be a good writer of fiction, having made only the lamest attempts myself!
But Draco laughing loudly at Umbridge's joke already illustrates sycophantic behavior. We know Draco well enough to know that he's kissing up to her, and we know Ron well enough to know that he's trying to get back in Hermione's good graces. I don't think the adverb was needed, at all, in either case.
This will give me some food for thought on "show, don't tell." I still think it has its uses, but I can't say I have a lot of experience to back that up. From what I recall of OSC's use of dialogue, he lets the conversation itself do the work, without getting in the way with a lot of extra descriptive words.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That said, I think there are places where it would have benefited OSC's novels to show instead of choosing to tell. Then again, I like not always explicitly knowing the motivations of the characters, even given a first- or close third-person narrator.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"I like not always explicitly knowing the motivations of the characters..."
Yeah. I figured I was secretly evil for feeling this way.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
The more I write and the more I read, the more I have to disagree with oSC -- "show don't tell" is applicable very often. I agree to a point, because some take the advice overboard (some take any rule of thumb overboard), but when dealing with human emotions in particular the advice is apt. Showing rather than telling is a very good way of getting us to feel with the character rather than just knowing what the character feels.
And of course, what Rowling often does with her adverbs is show and then tell us what we already knew because she just showed it to us. (as Uprooted demonstrated)
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I am going to stop reading this thread now. I accidentally gave away a major plot point to Xavier (Moody's death), who has not read it yet. I got so excited and forgot that it was in this book, not the last, that he died. I wanted to discuss a post from this thread and it really slipped my mind.
I just finished it last night at the end of a business trip and I am so excited to talk about it that I have found I can barely contain myself.
I'm so ashamed.
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
Has anybody seen the Dateline interview tonight? She tells what happens with Harry/Ron/Hermy/Luna/Neville that wasn't in the epilogue? Also found here:
I don't recall anybody having posted the link yet, so I figured I might as well. Sorry if it's already been included!
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I watched it last night with my husband.
At one point, she talks about the death of Fred and her choice of him over George. She says that she picked Fred because he was the ringleader and George was the meeker twin. My husband and I just kind of looked at one another and at the same time both said variations on, "She didn't put that in the books!" Did anyone else feel that there was any distinction at all between Fred and George? I always thought they were the same character?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Which was the twin that actually went after the French girls at the wedding?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Actually, Fred usually was the twin who'd say something, and George was usually the twin who'd agree.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Actually, Fred usually was the twin who'd say something, and George was usually the twin who'd agree.
Bit of a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern moment, over here...
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
You can find the full transcript of the live chat with JK Rowling on Muggle Net now....here's a couple of things I thought I'd bring up:
quote:
J.K. Rowling: Thank you! I’ve already answered about Hermione. Kingsley became permanent Minister for Magic, and naturally he wanted Harry to head up his new Auror department.
J.K. Rowling: Harry did so (just because Voldemort was gone, it didn’t mean that there would not be other Dark witches and wizards in the coming years).
J.K. Rowling: Ron joined George at Weasleys’ Wizarding Wheezes, which became an enormous money-spinner..
J.K. Rowling: After a few years as a celebrated player for the Holyhead Harpies, Ginny retired to have her family and to become the Senior Quidditch correspondent at the Daily Prophet!
<cringe> Ginny became a rock star? Puh-lease!!
And for those who were wondering, here's what she says about the person who was to do magic...
quote:J.K. Rowling: My very earliest plan for the story involved somebody managing to get to Hogwarts when they had never done magic before, but I had changed my mind by the time I'd written the third book. J.K. Rowling: I'm sorry about this, but I changed my mind! Snapedinhalf: You promised that someone will do magic late in life in book 7. I've now read it three times but cant work out who it might have been! Please help!!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The Holyhead Harpies is the all-witch quiddich team, not a musical group. She was, presumably, a seeker, not a rock star.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Not a rock star - she became a professional Quidditch player. The Holyhead Harpies is a quidditch team.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
My bad. I guess that makes a bit more sense. Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Aha! I knew it. Ginny was destined for Quiditch.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Casey Kunze: Who killed remus and tonks I think if I knew this, I would get some closure over the very sad, but understandable, death of two of my favorite characters J.K. Rowling: I'm so sorry! I met a couple on launch night who had come dressed as Lupin and Tonks, and I felt dreadfully guilty as I signed their books! J.K. Rowling: Remus was killed by Dolohov and Tonks by Bellatrix.
I'm glad to hear she was a little bothered by that.
quote: Cornersoul: So what happens to all the dementors where will they go will they be destroyed if so, how J.K. Rowling: You cannot destroy Dementors, though you can limit their numbers if you eradicate the conditions in which they multiply, ie, despair and degradation. As I've already said, though, J.K. Rowling: the Ministry no longer used them to torment its opponents.
Yikes! Good thing this is pretend!
There's a funny bit where she explains patronuses often take the form of a loved one (but who gets to pick?) and later someone asks what hers would be. At first she says otter, because Hermione was based on her, but then she said maybe a large dog. Rowling has the hots for Sirius Black, you heard it here first!
[ July 30, 2007, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Dementors will engulf the Earth and never cease to exist. Then, as there is about a dementor every ten meters, they will combine into the beast. Then our Savior will descend from heaven and send us all to King's Cross Station, to board the train.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Rowling has the hots for Sirius Black, you heard it here first!
No, she has the hots for Gary Oldman.
But then, who doesn't?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: You can find the full transcript of the live chat with JK Rowling on Muggle Net now
I see she answered the Colin Creavey question. And finally revealed the Secret of the Socks.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: No, she has the hots for Gary Oldman.
But then, who doesn't?
Meh.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Just finished the book. Wow. The battle of Hogwarts, Snape vindicated, Harry walking to his death, and the final dues of the Dark Lord and his lieutenants... very impressed.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I have about seven odd points to make, three on new topics and four on old topics that fill up most of this thread. I loved the book and am reading it a second time just to see what I missed.
1) Hedgwig and the Broom 2) The Secret of Horcruxes (horcruxi?) 3) Alternate solution 1A old 4) Christianity in HP 5) The Wands 6) Harrily ever after. 7) Hagrid's missing.
Its gonna be quite a post. here goes.
1) Nobody seems to mourn the loss of Hedwig. He died early and first in that rush from the house. Here was a good clue that death and destruction would run rampant. His death was very meaningless, as he was trapped in a cage and couldn't fight or run.
Harry also lost his broom, which I am suprised he didn't mourn since it was his first true gift from Sirius. Yet it gets one line and then is forgotten.
Can you say obvious plot device. Why doesn't Harry just send an owl for help when needed, or fly away on his broom stick with his great, much discussed broom skills? Oh, lets get rid of the owl and broomstick quickly so we don't have to worry about them.
2) Secret of the Horcrux. I think I am missing something but why was it so important to keep the Horcruxes a secret from everyone, including the Order of the Phoenix?
The only way to stop Vold is to destroy the Horcrux.
The only people who know this are Ron, Herm, and HP.
The mission is risky. It is likely that they will die. Then nobody will know how to end Volde.
I can understand that Horcrux, the idea, is so evil that nobody should know about them, but you could still tell people, "Hey, there are these things that if destroyed will weaken Volde."
If it were me, I'd jump on the underground radio network and tell the world.
Even after Dumbledore tells him that all his secrets were a mistake, HP still barely allows himself to tell Neville part of it. And sharing that secret brings success.
#@$#@@#$ I have to go to work. More to follow tonight.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: 1) Nobody seems to mourn the loss of Hedwig. He died early and first in that rush from the house. Here was a good clue that death and destruction would run rampant. His death was very meaningless, as he was trapped in a cage and couldn't fight or run.
Harry also lost his broom, which I am suprised he didn't mourn since it was his first true gift from Sirius. Yet it gets one line and then is forgotten.
Can you say obvious plot device. Why doesn't Harry just send an owl for help when needed, or fly away on his broom stick with his great, much discussed broom skills? Oh, lets get rid of the owl and broomstick quickly so we don't have to worry about them.
Ummmm...who would he have sent the owl to? If an owl had been useful, Ron had one too. But Pig was back with Hermione's cat with Ron's parents. And when, exactly, would the broom have helped him get out of any of the things he got into?
I did notice and mourn the loss of the owl. Save Dobby, it was the saddest death. I think it was a bit of loss of innocence for Harry when that happened.
As to the broom...what did you want, a funeral? It was a broom. More important people and creatures (Mad Eye and Hedwig) were dead. When disasters strike we care, in order, about the following: Human deaths (especially children), animal deaths (especially cute ones), and THEN property. I'm glad he didn't mourn overlong about the firebolt. It showed maturity.
quote: 2) Secret of the Horcrux. I think I am missing something but why was it so important to keep the Horcruxes a secret from everyone, including the Order of the Phoenix?
The only way to stop Vold is to destroy the Horcrux.
The only people who know this are Ron, Herm, and HP.
The mission is risky. It is likely that they will die. Then nobody will know how to end Volde.
I can understand that Horcrux, the idea, is so evil that nobody should know about them, but you could still tell people, "Hey, there are these things that if destroyed will weaken Volde."
If it were me, I'd jump on the underground radio network and tell the world.
Even after Dumbledore tells him that all his secrets were a mistake, HP still barely allows himself to tell Neville part of it. And sharing that secret brings success.
The secret of the horcruxes was critical -- as was demonstrated when Voldemort found out that Harry knew about them and was destroying them. As soon as he knew he went to check on them. Had he found one, he would have moved it to a place no one would have ever discovered and then what would they do? The entire horcrux plan worked because Voldemort didn't think anyone knew about them. He hid them in sentimental objects and places that a person who knew Voldemort well (and very few did) could reason out.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Even Moldy Voldy did not know that Harry himself was a horcrux, containing a part of his soul. But if the Dark Lard knew that others knew about the horcruxes in general, like Christine said, he would have hidden better the ones that he knew about.
But I would speculate that Harry, since he himself contained a part of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Tamed, would have the ability to find all the other horcruxes, since presumably there would be some kind of link among all of the horcuxes. After all, look how often he found himself thinking the thoughts of Voldy and seeing and hearing what Voldy was seeing and hearing. Didn't he once or twice find himself seeing through the eyes of the snake, Nagini, too--another horcrux?
Telperion, isn't it fair to say that Harry did not really die?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If there were a link amongst the different parts of Riddle's soul, I would expect Riddle to feel it when one of them was destroyed.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
"...you were past feeling..."
That was explained - Voldy was so evil and so gone that he couldn't feel the difference between emptiness of soul and absense of soul.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Christine, I am unconvinced. One was in Gringrotts, one in a trapped cavern with poison and enough undead to conquer a small country, etc, etc. I don't think there were more difficult places for them to be hid.
If more good guys know to destroy the Horcruxes then there is a better chance they will be destroyed. If the bad guys know that they are a key to Volde's power, then evil will do what evil does best and turn upon itself. Some, like the Malfoys may seek what revenge they could get on Voldermort. Others like Bettrix may pull her item out of Grigrotts in order to use at as a tool for power with Voldemort, which would result in some nasty thinning of the death eaters. My imagination could run wild with these scenarios.
However, it isn't worth arguing about.
The Owl could have been used to communicate between the Weasley's or the Order and our campers to let them know all was well and get updates. That may not have been possible for magic reasons, but once Hedwick was killed, Ron and Hermonie's owls went the way of most D&D Familiars--forgotten by their owners.
3) The Alternative Solutions. It is clear throughout the books that while muggles are totally clueless about the power of magic, the Magicians in general and Death Eaters in particular are totally clueless about the power of human technology.
Mudbloods and Harry--raised by muggles--are more familiar with such mundane power. Combining the two would be much more powerful than Magic or Muggledom alone.
Apparate into a Special Forces Barracks. Throw up a few quick Imperators, and suddenly you have a group of heavily armed marksmen trained in camouflage on your side. Call Volde out for a face to face duel, then when he and his crew show up to ambush you--your troops sniper at them from 1/4 of a mile away. Wands are fast, but a Sniper bullet is faster. Just saying.
4) Christianity in HP should not come as a surprise. Most of the Christian holidays are well represented each year. In fact, it can be argued that each book, besides being a school year long, follows a Christian year--with the evil being present by All Hollows Eve, the turning point coming at Christmas, and the ending beginning at Easter. Thats a bit of a stretch.
The wedding, while not given by a formal clergyman, and not a Church of England ceremony, still has signs of a Christian wedding. The religious words were just skipped over by RK.
Or you can look at the Christ similarities of HP totally backwards.
What if Jesus was just an early skilled young magician with a good soul. Some evil Horcrux producing Wizard was bent on world domination and living for ever. We can call him Herodimus, for example. His Horcruxes might even have been in similar items to Volde's--say a tiara of thorns, a gold cup or Grail, instead of a scar on a boys head, the actual head of the wise bearded mentor of the young hero--John something. Etc. etc. When his Imperator'd friend Judas brings the hero to meet this master magician, he willing goes to his death, and by doing such, does not truly die.
I am having way to much fun with this.
5) The Wands. The Death Wand seems to choose only the victors to bestow its power on. Those victors are the people who win it at the end of a battle. Some people have pointed out that Grid did not win the wand in a battle, but stole it from the wandmaker. That might explain how Dumbledor was able to defeat him and his unbeatable wand in their great duel. I believe that once the last owner of the wand dies the wand will start the choice of who it belongs too again, needing at least one battle to have its master proven. That is why Dumbledor was able to claim it fully after that great battle.
6) Harry will never become an Auror, despite what RK says above. Every time Harry duels or fights he risks being dewanded, which will transfer ownership of the Uberwand to the victor. This will keep the wand alive, which is what Harry swears not to do at the end of the book. No, I think he takes to writing Muggle fairy tales which sell like hotcakes in the wizarding world, making him wealthy ever after.
7)You know who is missing at the train station at the end? Hagrid. He was always at the train station for Harry, so his absence here must mean something. This can be explained by the fact that RK was going to have him die in this book, but changed her mind, since this chapter was written at the time she wrote the first book.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
He won't keep the wand alive. It's buried and hidden and nobody knows about it now. Even if he does get defeated, he's going to leave the Elder Wand where it is, in Dumbledore's tomb.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Christine, I am unconvinced. One was in Gringrotts, one in a trapped cavern with poison and enough undead to conquer a small country, etc, etc. I don't think there were more difficult places for them to be hid.
If more good guys know to destroy the Horcruxes then there is a better chance they will be destroyed. If the bad guys know that they are a key to Volde's power, then evil will do what evil does best and turn upon itself. Some, like the Malfoys may seek what revenge they could get on Voldermort. Others like Bettrix may pull her item out of Grigrotts in order to use at as a tool for power with Voldemort, which would result in some nasty thinning of the death eaters. My imagination could run wild with these scenarios.
I don't find this at all plausible -- especially Belatrix turning aginst Voldemort. I think she was in love with him.
quote: The Owl could have been used to communicate between the Weasley's or the Order and our campers to let them know all was well and get updates. That may not have been possible for magic reasons, but once Hedwick was killed, Ron and Hermonie's owls went the way of most D&D Familiars--forgotten by their owners.
I can't disagree with this more. Harry, Ron, and Hermione could NOT have communicated with anyone, especially not with Hedwig. That was a pretty distinct owl and every order member and especially the Weasleys were being watched. Owls are not a secure means of communications, as we discovered in the fifth book. Even if they had had Hedwig, Pig would have been a better choice, but even that owl was likely to have been intercepted with the close watch the death-eater ministry was keeping on anyone they would have contacted.
quote:
3) The Alternative Solutions. It is clear throughout the books that while muggles are totally clueless about the power of magic, the Magicians in general and Death Eaters in particular are totally clueless about the power of human technology.
Mudbloods and Harry--raised by muggles--are more familiar with such mundane power. Combining the two would be much more powerful than Magic or Muggledom alone.
Agreed, but this wasn't really Rowling's world. I've played around with worlds like this...that tie magic and technology together...so have others.
quote: 6) Harry will never become an Auror, despite what RK says above. Every time Harry duels or fights he risks being dewanded, which will transfer ownership of the Uberwand to the victor. This will keep the wand alive, which is what Harry swears not to do at the end of the book. No, I think he takes to writing Muggle fairy tales which sell like hotcakes in the wizarding world, making him wealthy ever after.
Yeah, I spotted that too. It was one more reason I expected him to be a DADA teacher but whatever...once again, it's not my world or my story.
quote: 7)You know who is missing at the train station at the end? Hagrid. He was always at the train station for Harry, so his absence here must mean something. This can be explained by the fact that RK was going to have him die in this book, but changed her mind, since this chapter was written at the time she wrote the first book. [/QB]
He was never there to see Harry onto the train. He only collected him on the other side. And he was mentioned. The kids were supposed to have tea with him. Check it again. Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Rowling was never going to kill Hagrid. This was stated in a couple of interviews.
Umbridge managed to mess with the owls. It was stated several times that they are neither a safe nore secure means of communication.
[ August 01, 2007, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Mudbloods and Harry--raised by muggles--are more familiar with such mundane power. Combining the two would be much more powerful than Magic or Muggledom alone.
You could play the older Jedi Knight games to get a parallel idea of what thats like (mixing powers and weapons). For even more flexibility you could mix up light and dark powers as a lower ranked Jedi.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Near the end, after Moldywart's demise, Harry used the Elder Wand to repair his own wand, because he preferred it. No matter where he hid the Elder Wand, it would become the property of whoever might kill Harry, whether the location of the Elder Wand was known or not.
Hagrid probably ran off with Olympe Maxime, the half-giantess head mistress of Beauxbatons Academy of Magic, whom he was sweet on, and raised a family off in the Himalayas or somewhere.
Dan_Raven, I too have often marvelled that Hogwarts apparently taught no Muggle science. But maybe it is just as well that wizards and witches are not taught nuclear physics. Imagine what Moldywart might have done with that knowledge!
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Did JK ever tell us who Snape's source was when he told Voldemort the date when the Order would be moving Harry?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Mundungus, I think.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Rowling liked to keep the wizard and muggle worlds separated far more than actually makes sense. (Actually, there are a lot of things that don't really make much sense in her world, but that's OK.) If a wizard tried to start using muggle science, she'd come up with some pretense for not allowing it to work.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Oh yeah. Snape forced him to tell him right? Mundungus didn't just sell the Order out?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Yep. Confundus.
Still, he was kind of a weenie. Heart in right place, but there wasn't much of it.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
No, Mundungus didn't tell him. Snape knew from Dumbledore, because there's a scene where they're discussing it in the headmaster's office. Snape Confunded Mundungus to make him suggest to the Order that they use six decoy Harrys.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Yup. And Snape was the one who told Voldemort, at Dumbledore's instruction.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Pretty dull and depressing for most of it, with an insanely idiotic Gringotts chapter, and cheesy but admittedly entertaining ending.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Yah, Mad-Eye died and George lost an ear all to *possibly* help Snape's cover...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Snape couldn't have found out when they were moving Harry from Dumbledore, because Dumbledore didn't know. He was dead, remember? Snape was talking to his portrait in the headmaster's office, which can consult and give advice, but would have had no way of knowing information from the Order. He had to have found out from Mundungus.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.
Voldemort demonstrates several times how he feels about his minions who are no longer useful to him and/or have failed him.
I'm fairly certain he would have looked at an end to Snape's inside information as the end of his usefulness.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: That was a bad idea, IMO. Risk Harry and the rest of the Order's lives just so Snape can seem more evil to Voldemort? Why would Voldemort suspect Snape if he doesn't know when they're transferring Harry? The Order obviously no longer trusts him.
Voldemort demonstrates several times how he feels about his minions who are no longer useful to him and/or have failed him.
I'm fairly certain he would have looked at an end to Snape's inside information as the end of his usefulness.
Maybe eventually, but he had just successfully killed Dumbledore so I think that success should ride him out for a while. And he was also useful as headmaster of Hogwarts. No, he was no longer a spy but he was no longer a spy. Only an idiot would have counted on Snape being able to get any information out of the order at that point. I have to agree -- Snape giving over that information at that time wasn't all that useful. IMHO, it was Rowling making one last attempt to convince those who were on the "Snape is good" side of the debate that he was really bad before doing her big reveal.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:No, Mundungus didn't tell him. Snape knew from Dumbledore, because there's a scene where they're discussing it in the headmaster's office. Snape Confunded Mundungus to make him suggest to the Order that they use six decoy Harrys.
Actually, how was Snape in the headmaster's office at that point? It was before the ministry fell and, presumably, before Snape was headmaster at Hogwarts.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I'm pretty sure Snape was made headmaster before the ministry fell.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Did it bother anyone else that when Nagini was sent to attack Snape he just stood there and let it happen. Snape was a VERY accomplished wizard, I refuse to believe he would let fear overpower him and just let the snake get to him. Sure he might not have stood a chance against Voldemort even without the snake attacking him but why not try?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How could that have happened? Did people not believe Harry that he had murdered Dumbledore?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Not really. . . remember, the Daily Prophet was printing all those lies, questioning what had happened and implying that Harry had actually killed Dumbledore himself.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
It sounds like the Ministry was so corrupt that they didn't believe or didn't care that he did murder Dumbledore.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: How could that have happened? Did people not believe Harry that he had murdered Dumbledore?
The ministry appointed him? Remember it was on Voldemort's pocket. Also wasn't Dumbledore's death inconclusive? Some people thought Harry killed him.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Not really. . . remember, the Daily Prophet was printing all those lies, questioning what had happened and implying that Harry had actually killed Dumbledore himself.
That didn't happen until after the ministry fell, did it?
quote:The ministry appointed him? Remember it was on Voldemort's pocket.
Not until the wedding - after Harry departed the Dursleys. Only the head of law enforcement was under their control prior when Harry departed.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
There's no way Snape was headmaster before Voldemort had full control over the ministry. I think Dag made an excellent point and it seems likely to be a pretty sizable oversight. Not unforgivable, but sizable.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Didn't that conversation happen before Dumbledore died? He died at the end of the school year - I thought they were making plans for Harry for that summer before school ended.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ron & Hermononie showed Harry the headlines before the wedding, I'm pretty sure, which was before the Ministry fell. I don't have my book here to check, though.
I was under the impression that the Death Eaters had a lot of influence in the Ministry before it fell, and that the head of law enforcement was just one of the people on their side.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
That might have been when they had the conversation, but still, the actual date to move Harry couldn't have been set that early.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Ron & Hermononie showed Harry the headlines before the wedding, I'm pretty sure, which was before the Ministry fell.
The "Snape Confirmed as Headmaster" headline was seen after the wedding. I'm almost positive because I double checked. But it said "confirmed," so that doesn't mean it actually happened then.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Didn't that conversation happen before Dumbledore died? He died at the end of the school year - I thought they were making plans for Harry for that summer before school ended.
If it did, then my objection goes away. I'll have to double check.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
The conversation didn't take place before Dumbledore died for two reasons: 1. The portrait only appeared after Dumbledore died. 2. Anyone with two braincells left would have changed any plans that Snape knew about.
I'm sure that the headline came up after the wedding but I don't have a copy of the book handy. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the newspapers they stole from ministry employees when they were staking it out, making their plans to get in there and get the locket.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Right, but the headlines about Harry being untrustworthy were from before then.
--
"Confirmed" to me emans that he was acting headmaster already, but YMMV.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Maybe the plans weren't made yet with the Order, but the conversation occurred between Dumbledore and Snape. They planned what he would say, and then he confunded Mundugus later, so the Order didn't know the plans came from/were known by Snape.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Right, but that still means Dumbledore couldn't have given Snape the date of the move, which is what I was responding to.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The conversation didn't take place before Dumbledore died for two reasons: 1. The portrait only appeared after Dumbledore died. 2. Anyone with two braincells left would have changed any plans that Snape knew about.
The conversation did not require Snape to already know, just be capable of finding out.
quote:"Confirmed" to me emans that he was acting headmaster already, but YMMV.
I was thinking "confirmed" as in Senate confirmation, so it's definitely open to various interpretations.
In short, I don't care too much even if it was a glitch, and I'm willing to adopt assumptions (such as picking one of the different interpretations of "confirmed").
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
On page 688, it does in fact say that Snape was the one who told Voldemort of the correct date of Harry's departure as per Dumbledore's instructions. They did this because Voldemort believed Snape to be well informed, and in both of their opinions (Dumbledore and Snape), not giving up the information meant not only being on the outs with Voldemort but also turning Hogwarts over to the Carrows. Essentially, I think they were trying to protect both Harry and Hogwarts because Snape was already headmaster of the school and protecting the students (though Neville would have something else to say about that I guess).
Also, it was confirmed at the wedding itself that Snape was the headmaster of Hogwarts long before the wedding itself took place, which would then place the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore a little bit after his death. When Snape and Dumbledore spoke on Page 688, I believe that Thicknesse had already changed sides over to Voldemort's side, and so while the ministry had not fallen yet, its corruption allowed Thicknesse (who I believe was the Minister at that point) to place Snape in the position.
The only question that I think remains is how Snape knew of the date--it could be that the Order didn't change the date (though that is unlikely as others have said that they knew Snape was bad) or it could be that Dumbledore told Snape of the date, but more than likely, Snape used Mundungus to find the date, probably through the imperious curse or through Occlumency.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Humean316: When Snape and Dumbledore spoke on Page 688, I believe that Thicknesse had already changed sides over to Voldemort's side, and so while the ministry had not fallen yet, its corruption allowed Thicknesse (who I believe was the Minister at that point) to place Snape in the position.
Thicknesse didn't change sides, he was Imperiused. And he wasn't Minister, but he was pretty high up.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
Yeah you are right Rivka, Scrimogeour (sp?) was the minister of magic at the time, but on page 46, Mad-Eye says Thincknesse "has gone over", which I took to mean that he changed sides. Scrimogeour died when the ministry fell at the wedding, so there that is...
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Moody thought Thicknesse had gone over, but the death eaters said that they just had him under an imperius.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
The only thing that bothered me was why nineteen year old Teddy Lupin was kissing Victorie on the Hogwarts Express.
Posted by johnsonweed (Member # 8114) on :
Major Spoilers!!!
Jo Rowling answers many questions during an online chat!!
She gives sort of an Epilogue to the Epilogue!!!!
From the AP story...
Rowling said the world was a sunnier, happier place after the seventh book and the death of Voldemort.
Harry Potter, who always voiced a desire to become an Auror, or someone who fights dark wizards, was named head of the Auror Department under the new wizarding government headed by his friend and ally, Kingsley Shacklebolt.
His wife, Ginny Weasley, stuck with her athletic career, playing for the Holyhead Harpies, the all-female Quidditch team. Eventually, Ginny left the team to raise their three children - James, Albus and Lily - while writing as the senior Quidditch correspondent for the wizarding newspaper, the Daily Prophet.
Harry's best friend, Ron Weasley, joined his brother, George, as a partner at their successful joke shop, Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. Hermione Granger, Ron's wife and the third person of the series' dark wizard fighting trio, furthered the rights of subjugated creatures such as house elves in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures before joining the magical law enforcement squad. The couple had two children - Rose and Hugo.
Luna Lovegood, Harry's airily distracted friend with a love for imaginary animals who joins the fight against Voldemort in the Order of the Phoenix, becomes a famous wizarding naturalist who eventually marries the grandson of Newt Scamander, author of "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them."
And what Muggle, or non-wizard, song would have been played at the funeral of Albus Dumbledore, the most brilliant and talented wizard the world had ever known?
"Surely `I Did It My Way' by Frank Sinatra," Rowling told her fans, referring to the song "My Way," written by Paul Anka but popularized by Sinatra, among other singers.
As the chat wrapped up, Rowling thanked readers for their loyalty to the series.
"What can I say? Thank you so much for sticking with me, and with Harry, for so long. You have made this an incredible journey for Harry's author."
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I know it's a change of subject, but I was wondering if anybody else felt this way.
Was anybody else shocked at Minvera's willingness to use the imperio curse?
My jaw quite literally dropped when I read that. Remember?
Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in the Ravenclaw Common room, trying to find the 'die-dum': enter mean teachers, add Minerva and Wam! Imperio.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Damien, Rowling has said he was on the train dropping her off and saying goodbye before she left for her 7th year. She was just turning 17 and he was 19, nothing wrong with that age difference.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was surprised when Harry was so willing to use the Imperious curse, but after I got used to that, McGonnogal doing the same wasn't that big a deal.
Also, I consider everything she says happened but which isn't in the books to be fanfiction.
My Harry Potter did not become an Auror.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Porter, when she comes out with an encyclopedia book will you still consider it fanfiction?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I dunno. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
After all, I consider the idea that the Force is caused by a virus to be the work of a hack fanfic writer.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
K. I was just wondering. From my perspective it is canon if she says it and I can see where she has said it.
I have weird feelings about the imperius curse. I was upset when Harry did it, I was more upset when McGonnagal did because I think of her as an authority figure, but I am now just mad that Rowling called it Unforgivable and then let it happen with no consequences, even if the consequences would have been hard.
Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
I dunno. I was kind of upset at the use of those curses too, but then I thought "well, they're Unforgivable because the Ministry said so. And we all know how everything the Ministry says is infallible, right?"
Doesn't mean using the ol' AK isn't a terrible thing to do. But I suppose in urgent times, making the choice to use Imperio is fine by me. If it were me, and it was a choice between using it to make sure I got that Horcrux, or refusing to use an unforgivable curse, and blowing my cover and who knows what other consequences; I think I would do what Harry did.
For the Greater Good! Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I didn't like McGonical doing it partly because it was so unnecessary. I was pretty shocked, yeah.
Porter -- I think I like your attitude about stuff Rowling says happened that wasn't in the book. Usually, writers only get the book to say what went on. I think it's a bit unfair that she's out there explaining it all. The book should speak for itself. That's what we tell the new writers who come through the writers forums when they argue with feedback -- we tell them in the real world, you won't be able to explain what you meant to publishers, editors, or fans. But Rowling is doing just that and it kind of irks me.
The only trouble is that in my world, Harry would be the DADA teacher, and she did kind of nix that on the platform. I'll have to give it some thought...
I'm not even sure if I'll read the encyclopedia, let alone if it will count. IMHO, if it didn't go in the book, then it must not have been that interesting.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Christine: I think when writers make a billion dollars they can sorta do whatever they want. Giving away an afterword instead of cranking it out in a Harry Potter Tell All and making another boxcar of $100 bills is pretty innocuous.
... I'll still buy a Harry Potter Tell All so long as it's not by Rita Skeeter.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I know WHY she can do it, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the books at face value and ignore her. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's pretty much the same reason why Lucas was able to do whatever he wanted with the prequels, no matter how lame.
It's not a good enough reason for that stuff to enter my canon.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The curses are Unforgivable because 1 kills, one denies the target his or her free will, and the third causes unimaginable and agonizing pain. They're unforgivable in the context that they're horribly to deliberately use on another human being especially Aderva Kadavra since its affect of all of them are un.... un... unsomething... unretractable? You can't take it back! Bah close enough.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
"Madeye" had permission from Dumbledore to demonstrate the unforgivable curses in 4th year. So they are clearly not on the same par of illegality as, say, using an underage Patronus charm in front of Dudley. Does using Crucio tear the soul, like Ak? Probably. But maybe there are circumstances where not using it are just as awful. I mean, think about all the stuff Minerva had to stand idly by in the interest of the Greater Good that year.
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
I don't know... On the one hand, I thought it was kind of unthinkable that she would have used the imperio curse.
But, perhaps those curses weren't always unforgivable. Minerva may remember a time when she could have used the curses, and did so whenever judgement permitted. It would make it considerably easier for her to permit herself to do it again later in life.
And, none of us really know much about her. Who knows what kind of life she led before coming to Hogwarts? I mean, you have to remember, we've had less than perfect teachers teaching at Hogwarts. Snape, Slughorn. That didn't mean they weren't accomplished wizards, but we know for a fact that they don't have the greatest character. Who knows what makes Minerva tick?
She's always been a favorite character of mine. I hope her past is explained in detail if a potter-pedia comes out.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I finished the book tonight, and have no time to read this entire thread! (I've only read the first page so far.)
I'll give my thoughts here, and then go back and read it. I'm going to go ahead and assume that others have expressed similar things.
1) Overall, a very good book.
2) If Harry had died "for real" at the end, then it would have been epically good. In my mind, he went from a mythical figure, to a pretty average protagonist, simply by waking up not dead.
3) Each time a "good guy" used an unforgivable curse, a nasty taste was left in my mouth. Harry casts, what, 7 or 8 unforgivable curses in this book? McGonagall even casts one! Nobody seemed to care. If they weren't a big deal, why haven't they been using them all along?
4) I was also upset by how easy it was to ensnare someone with the Imperius Curse. Harry got a goblin and a Death Eater under his control with out even breaking a sweat. That was LAME, in my mind. A spell so insanely powerful should take effort and skill, IMHO.
Other than that, I thought it was a really strong book. I was completely right about Snape, and the Harry as a Horcrux thing.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I have a question about Voldemort and Lily. On page 344, it says this:
quote:He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.
Okay, so Snape asked Riddle to spare Lily. And he was going to do it? Did he not know that she was Muggle-born? I can't imagine him really being willing to spare her, even for Snape.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I have a question about Voldemort and Lily. On page 344, it says this:
quote:He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.
Okay, so Snape asked Riddle to spare Lily. And he was going to do it? Did he not know that she was Muggle-born? I can't imagine him really being willing to spare her, even for Snape.
And he's a half blood, so....why not? Especially if Snape had been useful to him lately. He did dole out rewards. That part wasn't highlighted as much in the books but you can't maintain a following by punishing people alone.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If he was going to kill her anyway, how was it a sacrifice for her to intercede, as it were, between Voldemort and Harry? And since her being spared was because of Snape's love for her, it's one big, creepy, circle.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Voldemort said he didn't want to kill her, that she could just step aside and be spared. The only reason he killed her was to get through to Harry.
Of course, he could have used another spell besides AK to get past her...
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She may have meant Kreacher. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Of course they do, and the epilogue I imagined would have shown exactly that. But no matter, obviously my imaginary ending is just that - imaginary, so we'll just leave it at the fact that I would not have ended the series the way Rowling did. But, I'm not Rowling, as any glance at my bank account balance will prove. I'm just a (slightly) disappointed fan.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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Didn't your family miss you? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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