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Posted by roxy (Member # 3416) on :
 
It's been quite a while since I've seen a thread pertaining to this series. Are there any fans left out there? Or am I the only one ...
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
I thought the latest book was something of an improvement; otherwise I've not been thrilled by the last few books. And Crossroads of twilight was an absolute travesty. I'll read the last book when it comes, but I'm not holding my breath, especially with Jordan being ill and all.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I guess you could still call me a fan—a somewhat disillusioned fan. Book 11 was a huge improvement over the last few, so that does give me hope for the final volume.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
I guess I count as a fan, although the last book I read was #9. I think I've decided to wait until Jordan's finished, start back over from book 1, and read them through. When I tried to pick up book 10 a while back, I didn't know who anyone was or what was going on anymore.

My husband's read all of them. He tells me book 10 was unforgivably bad and that it was essentially a recap of book 9 told from different points of view with maybe 75 pages of forward action. He did indicate that the most recent book was better and Jordan has indicated that the next book will be the last so....here's hoping.
 

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Posted by Lamarque (Member # 10825) on :
 
I could also perhaps be counted as a fan. I really enjoyed the first 7 or so books at which point they went into a steep decline. I read half of book 10 before giving it up as a bad thing and I never got around to reading book 11. I have heard slightly better things about book 11 and I will probably read it and book 12 once book 12 comes out.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
I was once a fan. Then books 7,8,9 happened. I bought book 10 and gave up partway through. I have recently decided, however, that since I read so much of it, I can't just give it up altogether. I am now rereading the entire thing (currently on book 2) in the hopes that somehow the ending of it all will make me feel better.

Though at times like this, I think that rereading 10 books because I invested too much time in those ten books in the first place could be considered somewhat insane.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Why not wait until the last book is out and then reread them all?
 

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Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
 
Honest questions.

How did any of you manage to read beyond the first few pages of "The Eye of the World?" (my book is a freebie - part 1 of that first book)

Secondly, just how many pages do you have to get through before the writing doesn't suck any more?

note - I am admitting that I haven't read more than a few pages, but have a strong opinion on those pages. I am assuming the writing does get better and would love a clue in regard to how much of the same I have to plod through before it gets decent.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
"The Eye of the World" remains the best book.

Robert Jordan has a detail-rich writing style that can be a burden to some, but, IMHO, it's worth it for a number of reasons:

1. The story is very good -- epic, even.
2. The characters are distinctive and realistic -- they create the conflict with their real differences.
3. The world is the most complete I have ever read. Those details can be burdensome, but they help to create a full and believable world with different cultures, different governments, many separate wars and conflicts.


I don't recommend starting until all the books are out (mostly because I'm going to have to start over when that happens or I might fail to remember something) but I do recommend reading them. The world and the story is as full and complex as real life. It is also incredibly well planned. Everywhere you look you see foreshadowing, especially in those seemingly meaningless poems. Things in the first book do have meaning, if not then, then eventually.

Of course, not everyone is going to be able to get past the grandiose writing style. Maybe they'll make it into a movie -- or a series of movies, more like -- and you can appreciate the story that way. Although I don't think you'll get into characters' heads and motivations as much that way.

P.S. I do seem to recall that "The Eye of the World" took a bit of time to get into -- I started to Enjoy it as Rand dragged his father through the woods and into the village and then even more when he took off with his friends on their journey. I seem to recall, although it's been a while, that there is a prologue that is meaningless until you've read more of the series and then some grinding startup.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tristan:
I thought the latest book was something of an improvement; otherwise I've not been thrilled by the last few books. And Crossroads of twilight was an absolute travesty. I'll read the last book when it comes, but I'm not holding my breath, especially with Jordan being ill and all.

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Originally posted by Sterling:

Riiiiiight. I'm going to re-read more than three thousand pages on your say-so that this over-extended cash cow becomes great literature. You do realize there are books- good books- on the Roman Empire that clock in at much less? And it's not because the Roman Empire was poorly imagined? (Perhaps because the Roman Empire didn't spend so much time pulling at braids and folding its arms under its breasts...)

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Jordan does seem to have a thing for breasts.

Of course, no book on the Roman Empire is as complete as Jordan's world. It isn't as complete because of the one thing fiction can do that non-fiction usually can't -- it can imagine what's going on inside people's heads and show us the motivations of key players that make empires rise and fall.

I'm not saying it's perfect but, IMHO, it IS great literature.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I thought Eye of the World was fantastic.

The nadir of the series for me was the book that didn't even have Rand in it until the final chapter.

I too thought book eleven was an improvement.

I can't imagine rereading it, though. Sure, I'm a little lost at first, but I pick it up soon enough, and it's just too much to reread, and not good enough on the whole to be worth it.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
I used to read them but gave up. I loved the initial characters but once they started disappearing and the story became about other characters I wasn't emotionally tied to I lost interest. Toooo long and tedious to get those few snippets of the characters I cared about.
 

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Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
 
[It's been quite a while since I've seen a post by roxy ]

I'm not a fan -- too many people have told me not to bother starting the series.

--j_k
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I like it, but not much. I think The Great Hunt was the best, IMO.


After that it seemed to lose a bit each book.
 

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Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
Ummm ...
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
I disagree that the books were all that well planned out. One of the main complaints I have heard about the series, in fact THE main underlying complaint, is that Jordan somehow lost where he was going at some point and floundered around trying to remember it. This was one of the first epic fantasy series I ever started,and after reading others (in particular A Song Of Ice And Fire), I can see just how poorly the foreshadowing was handled. Peppering your book with images and prophecies that may or may not ever be mentioned again is not what I call excellent planning.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

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Originally posted by prolixshore:
I disagree that the books were all that well planned out. One of the main complaints I have heard about the series, in fact THE main underlying complaint, is that Jordan somehow lost where he was going at some point and floundered around trying to remember it. This was one of the first epic fantasy series I ever started,and after reading others (in particular A Song Of Ice And Fire), I can see just how poorly the foreshadowing was handled. Peppering your book with images and prophecies that may or may not ever be mentioned again is not what I call excellent planning.

--ApostleRadio

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Originally posted by Wendybird:
And its the side projects and minor characters that lose his readers. He should have kept them for a separate series. It would have made for a better book. For example I love the Ender's Shadow series - but if OSC had tried to include all of those stories in his original series it would have been way too much.

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Originally posted by Timoty:

While we're on topic of series that go on forever, what does everyone think of the Sword of Truth series (Goodkind)

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
It sounds like I gave up and decided that I was done with Jordan at the exact wrong time -- after reading book 10.

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It's ok, I gave up at book 8.

"I'm better than Tolkien, look! More pages!"

I know that's not what he said, but imo, there is tons of stuff that happens and is cool I guess, but not really relevant, nor an economic use of "story".
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Timoty:
While we're on topic of series that go on forever, what does everyone think of the Sword of Truth series (Goodkind)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Timoty:
While we're on topic of series that go on forever, what does everyone think of the Sword of Truth series (Goodkind)

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Pure unadulterated crap.

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As someone who stopped at Book Two, I gotta ask: did Goodkind ever write any books in the series that couldn't be outlined "Richard struggles with losing his freedom, Kahlan is in danger of being sexually assaulted"?
 

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Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
According to the Wiki article on the series...no.
 

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Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
 
I might read book 12 when it comes out (if it comes out).

I thought the first three books were entertaining, ever since then I've felt as if I were being held hostage. Just tell me what happens to these characters so I can move on with my life. No, no I don't want to know about new characters. Keep your far-flung empires to yourself. Just get to the end of the story.

And the other effect of drawing it out across 10,000 pages is that characters that felt fresh and interesting for about 1000 pages become hopelessly caricatured thereafter. So with each book, my motivation to finish the series dwindles, because I care less and less about the original characters, which is the only reason I'm still reading.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sterling:

quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Timoty:
While we're on topic of series that go on forever, what does everyone think of the Sword of Truth series (Goodkind)

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Pure unadulterated crap.

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As someone who stopped at Book Two, I gotta ask: did Goodkind ever write any books in the series that couldn't be outlined "Richard struggles with losing his freedom, Kahlan is in danger of being sexually assaulted"?

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For some reason, I read through book 4 or 5...I got to the one where Richard demonstrated the merits of libertarianism in the heart of enemy territory. Anyway, no, that's a pretty good summary of the series.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I read the first three Sword of Truth books and was at the library, about to pick up the fourth, when I snapped out of it and realized that I hadn't actually enjoyed any of them. The first one seemed alright as I was reading it (even though it seemed worse and worse the more I thought about it), but the next couple were completely derivative, poorly written piles of crap (in my oh-so-humble opinion).
 

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Posted by Fractal Fraggle (Member # 9803) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
As someone who stopped at Book Two, I gotta ask: did Goodkind ever write any books in the series that couldn't be outlined "Richard struggles with losing his freedom, Kahlan is in danger of being sexually assaulted"?

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Originally posted by MightyCow:
Jordan's world is so complete he'll sometimes give you 20 pages describing the clothing of a room full of people you'll never see again.

I don't need that kind of completeness in my books.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fractal Fraggle:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sterling:
As someone who stopped at Book Two, I gotta ask: did Goodkind ever write any books in the series that couldn't be outlined "Richard struggles with losing his freedom, Kahlan is in danger of being sexually assaulted"?

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The last several I read (before I finally gave up) were more like: Richard struggles to lecture the reader about libertarianism. Kahlan may be in danger of being sexually assaulted, but that's not important. Her real part in the plot (like all the other good guy characters) is to listen carefully to what Richard has to say about libertarianism. Reader flips through pages at a time, looking for forward action in the plot or at least some entertainment.

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Hehe. I'm surrently slogging through Phantom. Richard struggles with metaphorically losing his freedom, Kahlan gets sexually harassed by the one guy who sees her, and they spend, I kid you not, 133 pages on a single conversation. 133 pages on just how evil the Commun--er, the libera--I mean, the Empire is.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Joe, you've got to learn how to stop reading a series.

Just because you started a series, the author doesn't own your soul!
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I'm trying to convince myself that I don't have to read sequels written by other authors. Like Kevin J. Anderson.
 

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Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
 
I rather felt I was giving Goodkind the benefit of the doubt reading Book 2. The hundreds of pages it took the hero to recognize why his brother was- of all things- outlawing fire truly took my breath away. Not in a good way.

Erm, sorry. I realize some people are trying to discuss Robert Jordan, here.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Fire bad!
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Beer good!
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
See I read about 2 chapters of Book 1 of TWOT and I was seized with this intense dread that I was going to sift through an ocean of coal just to see diamond dust.

My brother assured me that that would not be the case but I decided to not ignore my feelings. I am SO glad I listened this time. I know I would have been one of those suckers who read through everything, and left the series angry. Fortunately I had so many readers tell me that it's all for naught.

Incidentally I give Mr. Card about 2 chapters to snag me or else I put the book down. Magic Street is the only book by him that has failed this test, and I actually gave it 4 chapters and two seperate attempts.
 

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Posted by DSH (Member # 741) on :
 
I think Jordan could have done the entire series in 3 books if he had left out the endless and unnecessary details. A few pertinant details are OK (I have an imagination after all ) but does each characters nervous tics and every mundane detail need to be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over again?

Somebody (who probably can't be trusted) told me once that Jordan intended to keep writing the WOT until he died. I gave up at that point (book #9 or 10, not sure which)
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
I found Wizard's First Rule to be the most painful of all Goodkind's books. I stopped after the sixth or seventh, I think, and they were getting pretty bad.

But Wizard's First Rule is just rife with virtually every fantasy cliche out there! It's amazing!

1) There was one a powerful wizard who vanished without a trace. The hero has been raised by a strange, wise old hermit. I wonder where this goes...

2) The hero is a simple woodsman who's never seen magic. 'Nuff said.

3) The hero is given a powerful sword and never trained in its use. He kills many things with ease.

4) There is a tribe of people who can provide a great help to the world, but they don't like helping outsiders. Of course, there is a way, a very difficult way, outsiders can become a member of their tribe. I wonder what the hero does?

5) And finally, my favorite. The arch-villain turns out to have a special connection to the hero. A familial connection. I know, I know, I'm being totally obscure. The arch-villain turns out to be related to the hero a very specific way. One that's totally new and refreshing, and never been done before...
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Oh, and I have avoided Wheel of Time on the advisement of many friends and good people like you folks.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Joe, you've got to learn how to stop reading a series.

Just because you started a series, the author doesn't own your soul!

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quote:

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
When reading Tolkien, I get the feeling that I'm just seeing a tiny bit of a huge and complex world.

With Jordan, I don't get the feeling that there's that much out there that we don't see.

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I love the character quirks and the fact that they don't go away. Tugging braves, crossing arms....

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Except that, like in the poorer sort of movie, each main character only has two identifying quirks that get dragged out over and over again.
 

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Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
 
"Tugging braves..."
I think those native Americans might then react by scalping you...
I'm sure you meant tugging braids.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I agree with Christine about everything except Wizard's First Rule. There I agree entirely with Dan.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

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I love the character quirks and the fact that they don't go away. Tugging braves, crossing arms....

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Except that, like in the poorer sort of movie, each main character only has two identifying quirks that get dragged out over and over again.

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I don't see the comparison. In the poorer sort of movie you're talking about, a character is ONLY defined by one or two quirks that keep coming out again and again. In WOT, the characters have personalities, motivations, desires, drives, and yes - quirks. It's the whole picture that works for me, and quirks are a part of that. I mean, I have quirks. I happen to cross my arms under my breasts. (It's a nervous habit.) Just because I keep doing it again and again, it doesn't make me a B-movie character. (At least, I don't *think* it does.)

Of course, I've come to accept that for something to be loved, it must be hated in equal measure. My greatest ambition in life, therefore, is to get one of my novels on a banned books list.
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
I think most of the criticisms of Robert Jordan and the WOT are valid.

-He's gets bogged down in meaningless details, like descriptions of baths or clothing (though occasionally, they will give clues- just not enough to make it worth the effort to decipher.)

-The number of characters and subplots has spiraled out of control, to the point that you have to wonder if you've seen this person before, what they're doing, and how it all relates. A brief mention in book one, followed by a scene in book 6 can be tough to catch (though sometimes cool). But the thing is, I want to see the main characters move to resolution.

-Caricature qualities, especially male/female relationships. Remember how awesome Perrin was by book 4 (the Battle for the Two Rivers). Now he is a panty-waist. Seriously, 3 books with him getting his wife back. Why? What great plot movement did we see here? What characterization? Was he trying to show Perrin's descent into darkness and obsession? Cause it wasn't that dark and his obsession seemed pathetic at best. There was no heart-breaking scenes of Perrin becoming the very thing he has hated. He was whipped, that's all. And all the Galina-Therava stuff? Bleh. In fact, Mat (and Tuon) remain the freshest and funniest part of the series.

I think Jordan's problems stem from a number of things.

The belief that whatever he writes will be ok and vigorously defended by his fans (wrong, as he has been criticized by the very same fans).

His attempt to convey every nuance and even major plot pots through indirection, innuendo and even (occasionally) hands gripping skirts (perhaps in an attempt to imitate Frank Herbert- though, to be honest, I got tired of trying to decipher raised eyebrows and long, obscure truisms or aporisms or essays in order to pull out the one sentence relevent to the plot in his stuff too. But I am rereading God Emperor, so obviously, it didn't bother me too bad).

His attempt to 'model' the real world in relation to plot in such detail that he gives valuable time (and interest) to show what one minor lord or some functionary is doing, simply because it may or may not impinge upon the main story. In fact, this begins to take over the story, without any hint of 'payoff' or how it will relate to main story in any way. Case in point, the Domani General Ituralde and his fighting the Seanchan. Sure, we get hints of how Graendal has manipulated the Domani. But we already knew that. And probably he will figure as important in the end. But you have make me care about his story in relation to the main plot based on information IN THE TEXT, not based on authorial meta-data, the knowledge that if he was brought up and is continually brought up, he must be important in the end. That is irritating. It's like figuring out the end of an movie or episode because its almost over or because there is only one suspect left. Cheap.

That said, I still love the series, despite its flaws. It's fun, still has its thrilling moments, and I do like the people (most of them) despite what I said. For me, the series peaked in book 6/7. I loved the denseness and plot movement. After book 7, it became positively glacial, though with a number moments in book 9 and 11 (including, hopefully, the end of the Elayne-Andor plot. Dear lord, how boring was that?) that greatly helped.

It's been 15 years and 11 books. I gotta see this through.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Christine:
IMHO, for epic fantasy, Jordan has no current equal...quirks and all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Primal Curve:

quote:

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Originally posted by Christine:
IMHO, for epic fantasy, Jordan has no current equal...quirks and all.

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Have you ever read George R.R. Martin? He blows Jordan out of the water. He even does some of the same stuff (obsessive world-building, pointing out clothing and character quirks), but he's immensely more talented and actually has three-dimensional characters with real problems.

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LOL...I just brought up how much I detested Martin in another thread. My husband and I disagree on that one -- one of the few disagreements we have with books. Yes, I've read Martin. In a way, I even appreciate some of the things he's done (gutsy killing off every likable character) but I stopped reading his series halfway through book 2 because I couldn't stand his characters. Yeah, they were real -- maybe a little too real, if you know what i mean. Didn't like 'em and didn't want to spend thousands of pages with them.

Another one of those love-hate things, I think.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Jordan's books took a steep turn for the worse when he got powerful enough to throw off the shackles of an editor. I imagine that one of the reasons that book 11 is so much better than the last several is that he had an editor foisted back on him.
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
Well, technically, he's always had and editor..........but, when that editor is your wife and has become more of a collaborator.....well, you can see how the work suffers. She's not reading as an outsider. She's reading as the author, her husband does (to say nothing of actually letting her loyalties to him outshine her editorial responsibilities). To the point that, when he reached that power (after book 7, when he decided to do the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of time, and the Legend:New Spring short story- later expanded into a novel), the only good book he had, with his wife as sole editor was Winter's Heart (9). 2 of 3 sucky books is not a good thing. Honestly, Crossroads of Twilight (10) was the straw that broke the camel's back. Patho of Daggers (8) may have been an abberation, especially in view of 9. But 10 was such a slap in the face. 'Hey suckers, you waited 2 years. Here's 600 pages of nothing happening, except for this one minor thing.' It was blatent and disrespectful. Add to that that wait for each books puts the expectations rightfully higher. We waited 2 years for that?

I have relatively high hopes for 12, though.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Christine:

Wizard's First Rule (Goodkind) may have been full of cliches but it was entertaining. At some future point, I may even have to challenge Dan's definition of cliche...I'll have to give that some more thought...but if those things are cliche then I wonder what fantasy series isn't cliche? They area all derivatives of Tokien, after all.

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Bah! And double bah to the italicized part.

To call every fantasy series a derivative of Tolkien requires a bit of a stretch, I think. Certainly, Tolkien breathed life into the genre that other old-timers like Fritz Lieber never could. And certainly, he wrote the first modern fantasy epic (modern as in written in the modern age, not 'modern-fantasy' as in Magic Street). But the cliches in Wizard's First Rule go way beyond just the vague "This is a fantasy epic focusing on multiple characters and spanning multiple books".

Personally, I don't think that the Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time (this one I'm judging based on vague bits I've heard, as I haven't read it. So I freely admit I could be wrong), or Song of Ice and Fire are 'derivative' of Tolkien in any meaningful way.

As for the cliches in Wizard's First Rule... I mean... Wizard's First Rule isn't particularly derivative of Tolkien, as I said. But it does trot out every big fantasy stereotype out there! Not the ones started by Tolkien, but ones started by other, lesser authors. It's like he doesn't even think he can handle ripping off Tolkien, so he rips off lesser authors instead. Including Star Wars, which I'd call Fantasy in Space and not Sci-Fi.

Gah, I have to go to work now. I'm sure we can pick this up again later.

Edited for a typo.

[ August 14, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Dan_Frank ]
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Actually, I was pretty sick of the Matt and Tuon storyline. That one is so repetitive. It was the main downside of the last book for me. Egwene's is the storyline I'm most interested in. I'm enjoying Elayne's just fine, come to think of it.
 

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Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
 
I like the Mat/Tuon storyline. Egwene's I am iffy on. I think the next book her storyline could be pretty awesome, but I skimmed a lot of hers. I also found Elayne's a bit dull. Perrin's was good in the last book, but I wouldn't have minded cutting him from the three before then. Also, didn't care about his wife's story.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
I like Mat but loathe Tuon. Perrin is just boring by this point. Egwene is the most itneresting one (well, along with Rand, not that we've heard much from him). Elayne I could take or leave; Rand could settle that in three minutes with a good subtle plague in the besiegers' camp, so it's all a bit pointless. I mean, duh, just because the Lord Dragon can't be [i]seen[i] to interfere doesn't mean he can't do it. Hell, just Gate in some Trollocs to the tent of whatsherface, the chief rebel. Make sure to let Elayne's gaurds kill a couple at the same time so it looks like the Dark Lord is going for all the leadership of the kingdom. Done.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
I guess the problem I have with the term "cliche" is that it requires not only that something have been done before, bu that is be tired or worn out. And that is largely a matter of opinion. I'm not sure I'll ever get tired of the ordinary person going on to do something extraordinary thing. I'm even fond of the one where they were born special or with a destiny and are now off to fulfill it. You can think that's done to death if you want, but it's my favorite and it's still selling stories. Heck, that's the basis for Harry Potter. And it is probably the biggest reason why I enjoyed the first (and only the first) of the Good kind novels.

As for the wizard going into hiding thing....I'm not sure when that's been done to death. Certainly, it's been done, but I can't think of anything particularly over done about it. Then again, I haven't read a ton of otherworld fantasy, as I like to call it. I tend to enjoy modern fantasy and science fantasy more.

I wasn't thrilled with the tribal stuff, either. Never am.

And the familial relationship was also pretty bad, but keep in mind it came up at the very end and was mostly the basis for the rest of the series, which got increasingly painful.

IMHO, you can see many stories as a series of cliches if you oversimplify the plot elements and take them one at a time rather than as a whole. The epic journey itself is cliche by now -- at least, if you're tired of it...and I'm not.
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
For me, up until the last book, Egwene had become a royal chore. She was so arrogant. Let me get this straight. Rand is the Creator's proxy, his chosen one, the rebirth of the Creator's tool throughout time. She is a woman elected by other women. And Rand should recognize her? Rand should obey her, the Amyrlin seat? What kind of thinking is that? Yet all the women in the series believe this, even Nynaeve (and don't get me started on her.)

But you know, that made me realize something. In the last few books (excluding 11) the characters had all become cliches. This is what Rand does. This is what Perrin does. This is what Egwene does. This is what Nynaeve (or Elayne) does. It was only in the last book that some of the characters revealed something new.

Overall, Egwene's story in the last book made me like her immensely again. That was just so cool, the way she behaved in captivity. I look forward to the the resolution. Faile? I have liked her character. But I thought she betrayed the Aiel who was rescuing her pretty harshly. Perrin just bashed his head in and she didn't try to stop him or anything.

I found the Mat and Tuon storyline refreshing, entertaining, and funny. I love how modest Mat is, and then, when pressed, displaying some amazing abilities no one suspected him as having. Just very cool.

Now, I'm all for political intrigue in books. In enjoy political machinations. But the Elayne/Andor (and don't get me started on the Birgitte and Dyelin rift) storyline was so...very...tired. Maybe because there was nothing really invested in the whole thing. You know Elayne is gonna get the throne. And even if she doesn't, so what? How does that affect the main plot (beyond vague difficulties between Rand and the new ruler, or Rand and Elayne, or whatever)? It seemed such artificial tension, kind of like the last few season finales of Smallville. All this great stuff happens. Ooooo, everyone is in danger or dead. But we know the producers are too chicken to actually follow through. Too many times, this has happened, only to have things return to the status quo by the 3rd new episode of a season. That's how this felt. Artificial tension. And a waste of time, considering where we are in the series, how small the books have been of late (have you seen the font size? Huge!!!!), how long a wait it is between books, and the myriad subplots churning. In the last book he began to prune heavily. But I'm not sure he can take care of everything. He may retcon and say, well that's life. But you can't just bring up plot points and ignore them later, when you had a ton of time to do it earlier, but didn't because you were too busy explaining dresses and baths.

Take, for example, the i'pod'angreal (the library from the age of legends that Aviendha found.) Truth is, this library could hold all kinds of keys to defeating the dark one, or building up rand-land technology/infrastructure (including one power tech) to give them a real edge. None of the forsaken or Dark One would be expecting it, so it would completely take them by surprise. Plus, those in this new age use old things in surprisingly new ways. I'm sure this could be used legitimately to give them a fighting chance. But RJ has stated he wants everyone to see that there is no way the light can win, as it stands. None. His cards are so close to his vest, to give this illusion. Thing is, though, you can't just introduce a deus ex machina in the last book (or second to last) and act like you always had it planned. Whatever should help them win should already be out there, though maybe downplayed. And should have been out in the story for a while. (And I doubt it's just the male sangreal in Cairhien). But my hunch is that this device will be dropped completely.

I just wonder if he'll be able to conclude the series and myriad plots in the last book in a satisfying way. But I do hope. And closure is closure.
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I got part of the way through book 2 before I stopped. Somewhere when Rand is wandering through that other world and he's so whiny. I couldn't stand it.

As for Martin, I've read the first book of the series, started the second and then stopped because of classwork. I have full intention of reading the rest of them at some point. Currently I'm reading the Kushiel series (on book 2) which I think is awesome.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
Christine, I think you raise a very good point.

Things are really only "cliche" if they don't work. And that was my problem with Wizard's First Rule. It didn't feel like any of the old fantasy tropes were really working for the story. Even ones that weren't horribly overused felt so predictable and lame that it was hard to enjoy.

I actually liked the first few sequels much more than Wizard's First Rule, as it felt to me like he had run through all the essential stereotypes and was starting to actually invent some of his own work. ... Then he decided that instead of ripping off classic fantasy, he'd rip off Ayn Rand. I actually like Ayn Rand quite a bit, and consider myself a libertarian, but it still felt so absurd and tacked on that I quickly lost interest.

To wrap up this thread hijack... I think we actually agree as to the value of calling something "cliche". In general, I shy away from the term because you can twist it around to mean virtually anything is cliche, and it's irrelevant if the story is good. I just make an exception for Wizard's First Rule.

Full Disclosure: I spent a lot of my youth reading mediocre (or downright awful) D&D novels, so my concept of what contitutes an overused fantasy cliche is in great part based on that.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
*nod* Wizard's First Rule feels like fantasy by numbers to me.

-o-

"i'pod'angreal"
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Dan, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't read a ton of D&D, medieval style, or Tokienesque fantasy. Actually, I haven't read anything that specifically claims to be a D&D novel, although I have read a few novels by unmemorable authors who wrote so much like a D&D quest that I could hear the dice rolling in the back of my head!

I get it in my head to read from that subset of fantasy about once a year, which is a good pace to keep the story from getting way too overdone in my head. Although, even reading them about once a year, I still manage to pick up some that are just so bad...a friend (who I will never listen to again) recommended David Eddings to me recently. Ugh!! I can't imagine anyone enjoying that who isn't a teenage boy or a teenage boy in a man's body (which, come to think of it, this particular fiend is).
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Hmmm, I picked up a copy of Wizard's First Rule two or three years ago and haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Perhaps I'll remove it from my "to read" list.

I've never touched Jordan's work, and after reading this thread I remain uninterested in doing so.

I read Martin's A Game of Thrones, and wondered why only the prologue grabbed me in the same way that his short Sandkings did. I could have done without a few hundred pages in the middle, and have no current plans to read the rest of the series.

I'm considering the latter two books of Bakker's The Prince of Nothing, but the first one, while interesting, didn't grab me much until the very end.

*

I think my foray into the hardest of hard SF last year may have ruined me for fantasy. Added: Though I do plan to try Glen Cook's Black Company series when the first three books come out in a compilation later this year, so maybe I'll come back to fantasy.
 

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Posted by GodSpoken (Member # 9358) on :
 
I am a Wheel of Time fan, and truly hope that the final book can be completed by Jordan.

By definition, fantasy "worlds" take on qualities distinctly of their makers' own minds, and are quite real to the maker. Therefore, they are subject to the moods and makes of the creator. It makes them alive and real and not subject to unmaking (had to) even when the readers want something else.

That is what makes them wonderful.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
It's pretty disappointing that this thread has caused some to shy away from the WOT series. I won't pretend it's perfect (nothing is, really), but it's wonderful. It's real. The only warning I've ever given about this series is to wait until the last book is out to start and I'll stick with that, but otherwise I think it should be on any fantasy lover's "to read" list.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by GodSpoken:
By definition, fantasy "worlds" take on qualities distinctly of their makers' own minds, and are quite real to the maker. Therefore, they are subject to the moods and makes of the creator. It makes them alive and real and not subject to unmaking (had to) even when the readers want something else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Christine:
I think it should be on any fantasy lover's "to read" list.

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Originally posted by kojabu:
What would you recommend then PC?

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Originally posted by Andrew W:
I have to disagree with you over Gene Wolfe though, I've only read the beginning of the Book of the New Sun, twice, and one of his short stories, and I have to say I found both of them so incredibly boring that I'm almost falling asleep right now thinking about them. Perhaps I didn't give it long enough, or was somehow missing something vital to your interest in the story, but it just didn't seem to have anything to hold me to it, or make me want to turn the next page.
I still have it lying around somewhere, so if you feel like it, try and pitch it to me, or give me some sort of explanation of why you liked it so much, and I'll have another go and see if I can see that in it.

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I don't know how long ago you gave it a shot, but you may be in a situation much like I was when I first read the Dune series.

I was a sophomore in high school, 15, and I absolutely loved Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. They were so action-packed and plot-oriented that I couldn't put them down. There was still a good level of characterization, but there were also other things to keep me going (Spaceships! Lasers! Sword Fights!).

I couldn't get past the first few pages of Heretics of Dune. God Emperor had so completely bored me, but the momentum of the first few books carried me through (and the ending wasn't bad).

I already owned Heretics and Chapterhouse, but they were so dense and I was so bored by God Emperor that I shelved them for years.

When I was in my 20's, I decided to re-read the series. I still enjoyed the first three books, but I found myself much more intrigued by some of the sub-plots and characters than I had been before. I also really enjoyed God Emperor despite finding it dull before. When I finally got to Heretics and Chapterhouse I had enough momentum that I easily got through those early pages and found the books to also be very enjoyable.

The reason? I don't know, maturity was probably one thing, but I had also read a lot more SF between 15 and 21/22 (however old I was) that had developed my taste for more than just a neato laser pistol (though I still have to admit a sort of Spielburgian joy in cool gadgetry).

I also found myself enjoying words more than actions. I now enjoy not only what is going on in the story, but I enjoy the way the story is told. I can read really fast, but I deliberately choose to slow down and enjoy what I'm reading.

For me, this development has lead me to enjoy things like Wolfe, who seems to relish in putting beautiful words and images to page. I think this may also be why I enjoyed Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrel as much as I did (apart from being a huge Anglophile).

Not that I don't enjoy a good modern narrative. I do love Martin, after all, and he's a master.
 

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Posted by Cyran0 (Member # 6717) on :
 
Interesting (to me anyway), I am waiting for my copy of Book of the New Sun to arrive. I have heard high praise for the writing of Gene Wolfe, and am going to give it a try.

Other books over the years that have rewarded my efforts:

Tigana and A Song For Arbonne by Guy Gavriel Kay (both single books with a beginning, middle and end... go figure)

The Earthsea Trilogy by Ursula le Guin (sp?)... short reads and immensely satisfying

Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune by Frank Herbert... long and sometimes difficult reads (and perhaps not for everyone) but worthwhile, nonetheless... I found the themes of prophecy and god-like power (possessing it, escaping it, overcoming it, etc.) presented in a far more complex and eloquent fashion by these books than in the WOT series.

The Harry Potter series by JK Rowling - far better than I ever expected it to be... I resisted the hype for years; turns out, it actually lives up to (perhaps surpasses) the hype.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
I thought Dune was awful. (I only read the original book.) I'm not sure why it's so popular, but then again, it won't be the first thing that's made me wonder that. I found it to be utterly unbelievable. Don't remember the characters too much so can't comment on characterization, but it definitely didn't stand out.

AW -- how on earth did you skip the second book in WOT and not notice? It's all about how Rand comes to understand and accept that he is the Dragon Reborn and how the legend begins to filter through the world. That was an important book, at least as good as the first, maybe better. (I've heard some say they like it better and can't argue with their reasoning.) I mean, if you'd said you'd skipped some of the later books and never noticed I'd have some sympathy, but I'm struggling to understand the book 2 thing.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
How can you dislike a story like Dune for being "unbelievable," and yet actively defend a series of books that showcase people using unexplained, god-like magical powers on a daily basis? Reality/unreality is hardly a measure of a books enjoyment. The ability of the author to suspend disbelief may be an indicator. I'd say the number of people who have loved Dune in particular shows that Herbert hardly had a problem with that.
 

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Posted by Timoty (Member # 10389) on :
 
I don't mind Jordan's long-windedness that much. What I mind in the blatant attempt to use his books as a cash cow. I enjoy reading them, but the last 6 or so (discounting 11), didn't feel like they went anywhere. There's very little keeping the story going.

On the other hand - Goodkind's books I liked. Again, he seems to be drawing it out way too long. It looks like he's ready to end it, then BAM! - A New Problem! However, I've seen a lot of negative comments about his "preaching" in the books. I found the book where it gets the most blatant (Faith of the Fallen) to be his best one. So what if he preaches - I loved the book.

As for George R. R. Martin - I think he's got the potential to do what both of the others couldn't, finish a series. And he creates a much more original, and lively, story while doing it. Time will tell I suppose.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I'm a fan of Kay as well, though my favourite of his is the two-book Sarantine Mosaic.

Oh, I also love Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos books. Light, but extremely engaging, and with interesting character development over the course of the series so far.
 

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Posted by Andrew W (Member # 4172) on :
 

quote:

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I also found myself enjoying words more than actions. I now enjoy not only what is going on in the story, but I enjoy the way the story is told. I can read really fast, but I deliberately choose to slow down and enjoy what I'm reading.

For me, this development has lead me to enjoy things like Wolfe, who seems to relish in putting beautiful words and images to page. I think this may also be why I enjoyed Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrel as much as I did (apart from being a huge Anglophile).

Not that I don't enjoy a good modern narrative. I do love Martin, after all, and he's a master.

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quote:

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AW -- how on earth did you skip the second book in WOT and not notice? It's all about how Rand comes to understand and accept that he is the Dragon Reborn and how the legend begins to filter through the world. That was an important book, at least as good as the first, maybe better. (I've heard some say they like it better and can't argue with their reasoning.) I mean, if you'd said you'd skipped some of the later books and never noticed I'd have some sympathy, but I'm struggling to understand the book 2 thing.

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