I just found a video of James Randi doing a talk for Authors@Google. It's about an hour long, and it's a little slow in the beginning, but all in all a really entertaining discussion.
For those of you who don't know, James Randi was the magician known as The Amazing Randi. Now he has a foundation that offers $1,000,000 to anyone who can demonstrate anything psychic, supernatural or occult under test conditions.
He's also one of my heroes.
So can anybody here win the million? If so, I want a finder's fee!
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I knew you were going to post this.
Now give me my money.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I saw a clip of him disabusing the audience of a magician who magically made pages in a book turn. I thought the trick was really freaky, but his explanation worked and the magician failed.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: I knew you were going to post this.
Now give me my money.
Prove it!
Oh...and it's not my money, sorry.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Define "supernatural, psychic, or occult."
'Cause I think I can prove the occult pretty easily.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Pretty much anything that cannot be attributed to known, measurable, naturalistic forces.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
From Randi's website:
quote: At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
I imagine occult might be something along the lines of using a spell, or crystals for healing, or voodoo dolls...something like that.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Randi considers chiropractic to be paranormal, supernatural or occult, apparently. I sent him an email asking if I had a disc pressing on my sciatic nerve, and was unable to support weight on that leg, and then was able to support weight on that leg after an adjustment, would it qualify for the prize. His one word answer was "yes."
I guess it's a shame that I'm not in terrible pain anymore, because at my worst, every time I coughed it threw my back out so bad that the pain down my left leg made me unable to walk. In one visit to the chiropractor, they had to lift me out of the car and drag me to the table, but I could walk after the adjustment... until I coughed again, and threw my back out, again. After 5 adjustments (the experiment was definitely repeatable) the chiropractor told me to get some codeine and stop coughing, because there wasn't anything he could do for that. I had surgery after that.
I've got a lot of respect for Randi, and what he's doing, but I really wonder if he even bothered to read my email past the word "Chiropractic."
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I think, Glenn, that Randi would argue that the chiropractor failed because he didn't cure your overall problem. He did what could be done, arguably, by a trained masseuse, and then sent you to a real doctor.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
It sounds like the chiropractor didn't actually heal you, as much as very temporarily fixed the problem and then just told you to stop making it worse.
If your arm kept falling off, and he just kept picking it up and smooshing it back on, it's not really the same as healing the arm.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Oh. Well, then. I thought it might just be showing that the occult existed, not that it was actually functional.
There goes my easy money.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
And in what way would chiropractics be considered occult? It physically removes pressure on nerves and shifts bones around and such right? nothing too paranormal about that...
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
It's not occult. I think Randi just thinks it's bunk and junk medicine, and so is confident enough to let people who do it try for the prize.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Some chiropractors claim that by adjusting your back they can diagnose and treat ailments of the organs.
I went to a chiropractor visit with a friend, and the chiropractor told her that her liver was "clogged up" based on how her spine was, and said that his adjustment would clear up her liver and make her feel better.
I imagine that's the sort of BS Randi's talking about.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Hmm... what does he think about accupuncture?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Scott, check out the video, he actually addresses acupuncture toward the end.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
If you don't want to watch, suffice it to say, he thinks it's bunk too.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Not really. The guy he was copying was amazing, though.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by brojack17: I knew you were going to post this.
Now give me my money.
Prove it!
Oh...and it's not my money, sorry.
I was the first one who posted a reply. I couldn't reply before the thread was created so I had to wait until the thread was created.
How 'bout that?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: If you don't want to watch, suffice it to say, he thinks it's bunk too.
If he thinks that it's bunk, how does he account for the results of studies like this one?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: If you don't want to watch, suffice it to say, he thinks it's bunk too.
If he thinks that it's bunk, how does he account for the results of studies like this one?
I don't know, you'd have to ask him.
I think Randi would point out that acupuncture, like many new age healing techniques, may very well be good for depression. You are brought into a soothing environment, made the center of attention, and pampered for sometimes as long as hours. These are all wonderful things! It would certainly, I imagine, provide at least a temporary cure to depression.
What I would argue is that acupuncturists sometimes claim they can cure diseases and things like that, which there is no good evidence for. At least not yet.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: If your arm kept falling off, and he just kept picking it up and smooshing it back on, it's not really the same as healing the arm.
If my arm kept falling off and someone smooshed it back on so well that it stopped falling off, I'd consider it healed.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: If you don't want to watch, suffice it to say, he thinks it's bunk too.
If he thinks that it's bunk, how does he account for the results of studies like this one?
I don't know, you'd have to ask him.
Oh, I don't really care about Randi's opinion enough to bother doing that.
quote:I think Randi would point out that acupuncture, like many new age healing techniques, may very well be good for depression. You are brought into a soothing environment, made the center of attention, and pampered for sometimes as long as hours. These are all wonderful things! It would certainly, I imagine, provide at least a temporary cure to depression.
If he were to point that out, though, I'd ask why the same didn't hold true for the group in this study who received what is being referred to in the study as "sham-accupuncture".
quote:What I would argue is that acupuncturists sometimes claim they can cure diseases and things like that, which there is no good evidence for. At least not yet. [/qb]
I'd definitely be interested in seeing more and larger double blind studies of the efficacy of accupuncture for a variety of medical problems. A quick google search brings up a number of studies that have, when taken together, results that seem to me to be inconclusive--some report a success in treating, say, headaches, while others show a failure to treat joint pain. There don't really seem to be that many studies, though (at least in English), and the papers I've found about them online haven't been as explicit as I'd like in describing their methodology. Furthermore, the sample sizes in the studies always seem to be quite small. Still, there is enough data out there that I'd be a bit skeptical of someone who just dismissed the entire subject out of hand as "bunk".
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: If you don't want to watch, suffice it to say, he thinks it's bunk too.
If he thinks that it's bunk, how does he account for the results of studies like this one?
That one is easy. Studies have been done comparing the needling of accupuncture points and the needling of random points, which resulted in no noticible difference in results. While there remains the possibility that the effect is not purely placebo, the mechanism is not dependent on the art of accupuncture itself. Similar pain suppression is reported to occur during tattooing. And tattoos have the same history of being used to cure ills in the practice of tribal medicine.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Studies have been done comparing the needling of accupuncture points and the needling of random points, which resulted in no noticible difference in results.
That's interesting, aspectre. Do you have a link, or the names of journal articles that I could track down? I'd love to read more about this.
[Edit--you know, as I think about it a bit more, I'm curious about something--if that were the case, why would the results be any different at all for control groups who receive "sham-accupuncture"?]
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
A big issue I have, at least with homeopath and 'alternative medicine' and things of that nature, is the fact they are in use without the proper testing beforehand.
There may end up being some truth to the claims that acupuncturists make. Wonderful! They should test it so we know for sure. Then is can stop being "alternative medicine" and just be medicine.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:[Edit--you know, as I think about it a bit more, I'm curious about something--if that were the case, why would the results be any different at all for control groups who receive "sham-accupuncture"?]
That kind of study would be impossible to do double-blind, since the sham acupuncture would require that the person administering treatment know that they weren't doing it correctly.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That is a challenge, I agree. I thought that the study I linked to employed a fairly ingenious method to get around that problem, though.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I remain very unconvinced that chiropractic cures anything except a fat wallet. I know people who swear that "chiropractic" cured their kids colic. Miraculously, the child was adjusted around the age of three months. And the chiropractor said "keep bringing him back weekly until the colic goes away" and after only about four visits, the child's colic stopped! Wow!
There may well be good chiropractors out there that do help with joint injuries and such, but I get very upset when I see them charge a lot of money to "cure" things that would go away on their own. Unfortunately, there are so many out there making these outrageous type claims that it tarnishes the entire profession.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Randi on homeopathy was a hoot. I actually knew nothing about it before this, but when Randi got to Avogadro's number, I started laughing out loud. I can't believe there are really people who believe in that.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Here's the entire contents of my email to Randi, as well as his (top posted) response:
quote:Yes.
James Randi.
-----Original Message----- From: Glenn Arnold Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:53 PM To: randi@randi.org Subject: Chiropractic
I've been directed to send you an email asking whether *ANY* chiropractic claim would qualify for your challenge against paranormal claims.
The history of the argument at issue is that while some (perhaps most) chiropracters do make unfounded and ridiculous claims, that certain conditions specifically related to the spine are basic mechanics, and that in the case where a nerve is being impinged upon by a bulging disc, that manipulation of the spine can relieve pressure on that nerve.
My contention is that since this is a mechanical issue, it doesn't qualify as "paranormal"and therefore wouldn't meet your requirements.
So I really have two questions:
First: Does your challenge require a paranormal component?
And second, (assuming that there is no paranormal requirement) my claim is this: I had a herniated disc, diagnosed by MRI by a neurologist who worked with my chiropractor. The impingement of the nerve could be clearly seen in the MRI. Before I was adjusted, I was unable to stand straight up, and unable to put weight on one leg without unbearable pain. After I was adjusted, I was able to stand straight up and put weight on both legs, despite residual pain. This effect was immediate and repeatable.
If this incident had been appropriately observed, would this example qualify?
Glenn Arnold
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Randi on homeopathy was a hoot. I actually knew nothing about it before this, but when Randi got to Avogadro's number, I started laughing out loud. I can't believe there are really people who believe in that.
Why? I believe in Avogadro's number!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Randi on homeopathy was a hoot. I actually knew nothing about it before this, but when Randi got to Avogadro's number, I started laughing out loud. I can't believe there are really people who believe in that.
Why? I believe in Avogadro's number!
Heh.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I always love when he talks about Sylvia Brown.
"She said she couldn't get a hold of me.
.......
SHE TALKS TO DEAD PEOPLE, FOLKS! I'M IN THE PHONEBOOK!"
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)