This is topic Spaces after a period in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
My brother called me last night, just before 10. He said, "I have a question for you." He sounded a little irked, so I didn't respond, "I have an answer", like I usually do.

"How many spaces are you supposed to put after a period?"

I paused, because I've had this issue come up myself. I said, "Well, it used to be two."

He paused, and then erupted with, "That's the stupidest thing in the world to change! Everyo-"

"Well," I tried to explain, "on web pag-"

"HTML is no reason to change something like this!"

I could tell he was on a roll, so I just said, "For what it's worth, I think it's dumb, and I still use two spaces."

He thought about that, and said, "Okay. But it is dumb."

Having reached an agreement on this important issue, we ended the conversation.

So. Does anyone want to weigh in here? I'm 44 years old, and I was taught (in high school typing, probably, in which I got a C, or maybe a C+), that you put one space after commas and semicolons, and two after periods and colons. And also, I think, that you capitalize after a colon. I don't capitalize after colons, and I don't use two spaces after them, either, because it looks weird to me. But I do put two spaces after a period. And it was only relatively recently that I was told (by the editor of the anthology where my story "The Last Minute" appeared) that the rule is now to use only one space.

Reading between the lines of my brother's rant, it sounded an awful lot like his kids are being taught the one-space rule in school.

Does anyone know why this rule has been changed? And what the source is for said rule? Is there some dark cabal, lurking in the halls outside of grammar school classes, cackling madly as they think about what rules they can change to drive parents crazy?
 
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
 
I'm 18, and I was taught the two-space rule. I never use it though.
 
Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
 
It's mostly due to the fact that word processors these days increase the size of the space after a period automatically. However I don't know anything specific about when the switch occurred.

Edit: Upon typing this out I decided I had best measure to make sure, and it really doesn't look like the space is any bigger. So my new position is going to be, *shrug*
 
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I was also taught two spaces after the end of a sentence and one space after punctuation within a sentence. Capitalization only on proper names and the first letter of a sentence (and by extension, defined terms in a legal document because by defining, you've given that term a proper name for the purposes of the document). Capitalization of quotes depend upon the context and extent of the quote.

My teenager says that they weren't officially taught one way or the other, but that the commonly accepted method in her school is single space regardless of usage.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
There've always been stylistic schools that held one space was better. I've usually heard typographic reasons, and I tend to agree that it is more readable. Two spaces breaks things up too much.
 
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 
I use the two space rule. It's what I was taught as a child, and now I follow it. Just seems natural. *shrug*
 
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
WHAT? They can change that?! I have always used the two space rule, was taught the two space rule, and never ever heard of it decreasing. Weird. Sad, that was perhaps the only grammar rule I actually knew by the book, as opposed to knowing it instinctually.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
The rule apparently appeared largely because of typewriters (and their monospaced fonts), and is disappearing as their memory recedes.

Btw, whether or not two spaces are put after a sentence has nothing to do with grammar.
 
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
 
I've always done two spaces after a period, one after any colon. But I write for the school paper, and they recently requested that everyone only use one space after a period. I thought it was weird, but they do that weird formating where the letters fill the space, whatever that's called, so I guess it makes sense.

Since my habit is two spaces after a period, I see no reason to change it, unless specifically requested.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
As I understand it, back in the days of typesetting by hand, end-of-sentence punctuation was followed by a space that was about one and a half times larger than a regular space. But since typewriters were monospace, it was decided to use two full spaces instead.

But then came electronic typesetting and word processing, which have much better spacing and kerning, so the two-space rule became obsolete. There is no dark cabal—just editors and publishers who decide what they think looks best and then write it down in style guides. The two-space rule was never more than a kluge put in place because of the limitations of typewriters.

Edit: fugu also makes a good point. This is not an issue of grammar but of style, which is far more arbitrary.
 
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
Heh. I've ignored the two space rule for as long as I can remember. I think it's what's dumb.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
If you look at a print out of a page typed on a computer using modern fonts and someone has followed the two space rule, you can see cascades of extra spaces throughout the page. On a typewriter, the period was in the middle of the space alloted for each character. In computer fonts, it's right beside the preceding character. This eliminates the need for two spaces. On a typewriter, if you only used one space it looked like the period was equidistant from the last letter of the old sentence and the first letter of the new one.

It's a hard habit to break, for those of us who learned how to type on typewriters. But there really is no need for it anymore, and it does in fact look bad when you print out a full page of text. I usually don't notice it on a monitor, only on paper. But kids learning to type in school today certainly should not be taught to use two spaces.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
I always use two spaces between sentences. For one, it makes things much more readable. In fact that's one of my (many) gripes with HTML — you have to use " " if you don't want your spaces to be collapsed into one. So even if you do put two spaces after a period it won't show up correctly on the web. Well, without a fancy stylesheet anyway.

Two spaces and a capital letter after a colon, though? That's just wrong.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Two spaces after a period does not make things more readable. At least, I assume you haven't been having problems reading books, lately [Smile] .
 
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.

This can be set to 1, 2, or don't check. The english teachers I worked with all require the spell checker to be set for 2 spaces, which is still the standard, as far as they were concerned. Microsoft Word does not automatically put two spaces after a period. I'd still recommend using two spaces on your resume and cover letter.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
Two spaces after a period does not make things more readable. At least, I assume you haven't been having problems reading books, lately [Smile] .

I suppose we'd have to look at a study, wouldn't we? Perhaps I went overboard when I used the word "much", but I strongly suspect there is a difference in readability.
 
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
I've always used two spaces...though when formatting my masters thesis they wanted one space. Though, they had a bunch of stupid rules for the formating of my thesis. I found it annoying because I had to have it in APA format for my department, and then a different format for the college. Which is why I hired an editor to format it for the college. [Smile]
 
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
 
I've never in my life seen a professionally published book or article that used 2-spaces, and I've never heard of the rule.

Though I do see many people who do it in discussion groups, much to my annoyance. When I respond to one of these 2-space posts, I always remove the extra spaces. As far as I'm concerned, it's just wasted space.

For the record, I took Typing and English in the (cringing at my ever increasing age) 60's. Back when English teachers were firm but fair, grading was strict, and test questions were always 'essay'.

Steve/BlueWizard
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I strongly suspect that if readability was even somewhat improved by using two spaces, publishers might have caught on at some point.
 
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 
Mavis Beacon taught one space if I recall, but I was 8 at the time. [Wink]
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I use one. I probably learned to put two at some point, but it just flows better for me to only use one.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
I strongly suspect that if readability was even somewhat improved by using two spaces, publishers might have caught on at some point.

Perhaps. I did a little googling, and it appears that much of the objection comes from the swaths of whitespace you get when text is justified, as in books and newspapers. That makes some sense, and I'll concede on that point. Then again, almost nothing I write is ever justified (um, yeah).

ElJay had a good point that I missed earlier, that in modern fonts the period is positioned to the left of center. When that is the case, I have no objection to using a single space. But it appears not to be the case for the font used on hatrack, nor indeed for the handful of fonts I just checked in TextEdit, with the possible exception of Helvetica (indeed, in Times the period is slightly to the right of center).

In any case, the links I read (most of which mentioned something about monospace versus proportional fonts, which should have no bearing whatsoever on this issue) simply say you should use one space but provide no justification for it other than that graphic designers say it looks bad to use two spaces. I have yet to be convinced.

So, has there been a study for readability?
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
No idea. It is a relatively hard topic to google for. Also, it would be moderately hard to put together a good study: you'd really have to do one for each of several contexts, you'd need to control in the population for various effects (which they were taught, which they use, what they typically read), et cetera.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
How many spaces after a period? Depends on the Birth Control you are using I think.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I space mine about every 28 days.
 
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I've always used two, and I do think it's more readable. It just seems to help me in parsing where the sentence ends to have more clues there than a single period which is all but invisible. I think it looks better, not worse. And also I usually choose "justified" mode in my documents, so that both edges of the text are aligned. Occasionally if you have a long word starting a line, the line before will look weird and stretched but then I will fix it by rewording the text. [Smile]

Here on hatrack, I think all whitespace is reduced to one, isn't it?
 
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
All rules, whether stylistic or grammatical, are arbitrary.
 
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
 
I've never used two spaces and the idea has never been mentioned in my high school.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
No, they usually aren't arbitrary. Some are more based in culture, and some were developed through more explicit processes, but very few were just decided with no reason to go one way more than another. Or if you mean the other semi-plausible definition of arbitrary for your usage, that's only true up to a point, and the point can be very limited in certain contexts. For instance, if preparing a manuscript for publication, what you do with grammar is typically not very decidable by personal preference.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
The doctor told me I was lucky since I usually go well over 30 days, but I usually just wonder what's wrong with me for a week. I wish the number wouldn't vary so much. It's all about consistency.
 
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
 
At the publishing company I used to work for, we needed manuscripts to be submitted with one space after the period because our typesetting software would automatically stretch out the space at the end of a sentence (to around one and a half spaces)--having two spaces in the raw manuscript would result in double that.
 
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
When using a typewriter (monospaced fonts), use two spaces after a period. When using a word processor (with proportional fonts), only one is needed and two looks unprofessional. The rule changed because the technology changed.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Don't most word processors now automatically correct whether you use one or two?

(I use two, and I've never seen it mess up my page and look "unprofessional.")
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
All rules, whether stylistic or grammatical, are arbitrary.

Yes, but there's a world of difference between the arbitrariness of syntactical rules and the arbitrariness of stylistic rules.
 
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I know that my version of Microsoft Office puts a squiggly green line if there are too many spaces, but it doesn't automatically correct it, I don't think. I have a background in typesetting and two spaces after a period bugs me in the same way that an errant apostrophe does.

I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>

[ September 23, 2007, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: maui babe ]
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
If I remember right, I'm about the same age as kq, and we had a typewriter when I was a kid. My typing class in junior high also used typewriters, and my teacher insisted on two spaces. I balked at being forced to go along with such an outdated rule, but I went along with it anyway. I'm honestly surprised that anyone still teaches it.

And all I've found so far is that there haven't been any direct studies on the matter. This link and this one go into a little more detail.
 
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
 
I'm younger than KQ, and was taught to use two spaces. I have used a typewriter, but that was long before I learned the two-space rule. Just a few years after learning it, I was told to use one space. *shrug*
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor?
LOL! My teachers required typed papers by 4th grade, and we didn't own a computer until I was in 6th. So yes, I typed my first papers on the same machine my mom used through college!

We were taught the "two space" rule in typing class in HS, where we used word processors most of the time-- but had to individually take turns cycling through on the electric typewriters "so we would know how to use them if we ever encountered them in the business world." (The electrics were a dream after the manual I first typed on!)
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.

That only helps if disabling the abomination of grammar checking isn't the very first thing you do when you install a new instance of Microsoft Word.
 
Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
 
Wow, I cannot believe that this is a recent topic [Smile] What's even more alarming to me, is that I just remembered that I was INDEED taught the two-space rule a long, long time ago. Since I'm only 19, it must've been around 1st or 2nd grade, when we began those type-to-learn thingies in the computer lab.

Somewhere down the river of time, the rule changed to one-space, and I adapted right away without missing a space...er, beat [Razz]

Wow, I can't believe I forgot that I used to indeed type with two-spaces...I even remember when it changed and I was reprimanded for "doing it wrong." I KNEW it wasn't my fault after all! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Liaison (Member # 6873) on :
 
I learned the two-space rule in 5th grade. We had weekly typing classes, which was a new thing for the whole school at the time. I have used two spaces ever since then thinking it was just the proper way to go about it. I'm 21 now and taking a computer keyboarding class in college for one more filler unit that I needed. The program we are using started off with a prompt saying that the one-space rule is now correct and should be implemented for the class. I had never heard of using one space before. It has made using the program somewhat frustrating. I keep catching myself using two-spaces. Outside of the class, when I'm typing quickly for an essay or a post online, I can't help but put two spaces. It's too instinctual to even think about it when I'm more concerned with what I'm trying to say.

I'm curious as to why I was taught the two-space rule in the first place. It was only about 10 years ago and we were practicing typing with programs on PCs. I've never used a typewriter. That seems very strange to me. I don't know if I'll ever be able to re-program my brain to use only one space...or if I should really even bother.
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
I use two spaces. They just took away hyphens, your not taking the second space away also. What next, fewer commas? (that's a joke, I always put too many commas)
 
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
 
I'm 23. The first I ever heard of "two-spaces after the period" was a little over a year ago, in my last year of college. I had always put one space, and I continue to do so now.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I'm older than at least two-thirds of the people in this thread. I took typing class on IBM Selectric typewriters, and at home I had a manual typewriter. I heard of the two space rule at some point in high school, decided it was asinine, and ignored it. Just like I ignored the no-comma-before-"and"-when-using-nouns-in-a-series rule. I don't think anybody every marked me off on either "mistake."
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by maui babe:
I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>

I'm younger than Kqueen (though not much) and was taught the two space rule in elementary school, middle school and again in high school. I never had it commented on while I was in college. It wasn't until I started writing manuscripts that I was told it was no longer correct - much to my shock, as I'd never heard of it being wrong previously.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
When I edited my college's newspaper, I edited out duplicate spaces. But our style manual was "whatever Joe says."
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
Finally, a style manual I can get behind!
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
...this one...

This was one of the sites I ran across in my earlier googling. You gotta wonder about taking typesetting advice from someone who uses Arial over Helvetica.

From the article:

quote:
One of the next things I realized is that, in general, the spacing after a period will be irrelevant since most fonts used today are proportional. That is, each character is not the same size.
and

quote:
Like Amy Gahran, Kathy Gill told me that the current typographic standard for a single space after the period is a reflection of the power of proportionally spaced fonts.

"The only reason that two spaces were used after a period during the 'typewriter' age was because original typewriters had monospaced fonts -- the extra space was needed for the eye to pick up on the beginning of a new sentence. That need is negated w/proportional space type, hence [it is] the typographic standard."

And yet there is no explanation of why this should be the case. If we needed extra space between sentences back in the days of monospace fonts, why don't we now with proportional fonts? What is it exactly about proportional fonts that fixes this problem?
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
Monospace fonts, without the double space, make it difficult to visually pinpoint the beginnings and ends of sentences.

This is supposedly not an issue with proportional fonts, but I strongly disagree.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Two spaces. I'm old. And I learned to type on a manual typewriter - that's what the school had, so that's what we used. Computers didn't happen in schools in those days.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
I am reading Guns, Germs, and Steel. I just ran across this sentence (or is it two sentences?) at the very end of chapter 16:

quote:
Korea and Japan adopted rice from China in the second millennium B.C., bronze metallurgy by the first millennium B.C., and writing in the first millennium A.D. China also transmitted West Asian wheat and barley to Korea and Japan.
It took three readings for me to parse it correctly. If it had been like this, I'd have read it right the first time:

quote:
Korea and Japan adopted rice from China in the second millennium B.C., bronze metallurgy by the first millennium B.C., and writing in the first millennium A.D.  China also transmitted West Asian wheat and barley to Korea and Japan.

 
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
All rules, whether stylistic or grammatical, are arbitrary.

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
quote:
I'm surprised KQ that you learned to use 2 spaces, as young as you are. Have you ever even USED a typewriter, as opposed to a word processor? I have at least two daughters who are older than you that learned to "type" exclusively on computers. This problem should be self correcting as those of us who learned the monospaced version are getting older and out of the work force (okay, it'll be a couple more decades, but still...) Instead, the old rules seem to be perpetuating instead of going away.<sigh>
I'm slightly younger than KQ, and I did my first typing on a typwriter (4th grade typed papers Anne? Jeez!). We didn't get our first computer until I was in I think 7th grade, and I didn't really get decent access to it until after my older brother got his own computer when I got into high school. So I did my initial learning on a typewriter but didn't get proficient until I had more time on a computer.

I always learned one period, until high school I heard about two periods but it was never enforced. In college two periods was never mentioned either. Personally I don't see the point of two periods. I don't think it does anything other than make paragraphs look funny.
 
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
In Microsoft Word, go to Tools/Preferences/Spelling & Grammar/Settings/Spaces between sentences.

That only helps if disabling the abomination of grammar checking isn't the very first thing you do when you install a new instance of Microsoft Word.
It's not a matter of helping, I was simply pointing out that Word has settings for either preference. And yes, there are still teachers and hiring managers who will expect two spaces after a period.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Mike, that's an excellent example of why two spaces after a period ending a sentence makes more sense. Clarity.

It's also why I use a comma at the end of a list before the "and". Clarity.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
You gotta wonder about taking typesetting advice from someone who uses Arial over Helvetica.

Frankly, I think they're both terrible fonts.

quote:
And yet there is no explanation of why this should be the case. If we needed extra space between sentences back in the days of monospace fonts, why don't we now with proportional fonts? What is it exactly about proportional fonts that fixes this problem?
Do you know what the difference is between monospace and proportional fonts? In a monospace font, like Courier, every character is the same width, so a period takes up as much space as a W. But with proportional fonts, each character takes up a more appropriate amount of space, and any halfway decent font will have different kerning values for different characters, so a period will be tucked closer to the character it follows. This means it doesn't look like it's hanging out somewhere in the middle between the sentences.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
(4th grade typed papers Anne? Jeez!)
Yeah. I think we were the only family in my grade who didn't have a computer. My mom worked really hard and we ate a lot of beans to live in the school district we lived in. We took computer classes in school starting in kindergarten, so they assumed either you knew how to type or someone in your family could type it for you by 4th grade.

quote:
It's also why I use a comma at the end of a list before the "and". Clarity.
Precisely.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Frankly, I think they're both terrible fonts.

Yes, well, yes. My point stands.

quote:
Do you know what the difference is between monospace and proportional fonts? In a monospace font, like Courier, every character is the same width, so a period takes up as much space as a W. But with proportional fonts, each character takes up a more appropriate amount of space, and any halfway decent font will have different kerning values for different characters, so a period will be tucked closer to the character it follows. This means it doesn't look like it's hanging out somewhere in the middle between the sentences.
Yeah, I don't buy it. You either need extra indication of sentence demarcation or you don't. I mean, I get that proportional fonts make it so that letters in words are more tightly grouped together so it's easier to make out individual words, but it's not like we used to use two spaces between all words. Or between words that end or begin with thin letters like 'l' or 'i'. After all it kinda looks like the 'i' in the following is hanging out somewhere in the middle:

code:
Hawaii rocks

Maybe it is more likely that the two-space rule was introduced to separate sentences from each other almost as if each sentence could stand on its own as a "complete thought". Or to distinguish between period-as-abbreviation-mark and period-as-end-of-sentence as in my example at the top of the page.

Incidentally, how much space do you (general you) usually put between words and sentences when you write with pen and paper? I tend to put quite a bit of space between words, more than an em, and more (though not typically double the amount) between sentences.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Helvetica is a wonderful font. Judging from the amount it still gets used by designers, it's a font that's stood the test of time. I haven't met a graphic designer who doesn't like Helvetica and doesn't use it consistently. Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me ends up being based on Helvetica.

As far as double spaces, I don't use them and have been editing them out of copy for years. One of the first things I do to a chunk of copy I get from someone else is Find and Replace the double spaces. They wreak havoc with copy layout. They're worse than unnecessary when you're designing an article layout and trying to tighten the copy to save space.

As far as the serial comma, I'm all for including it. I think omitting it causes too many clarity snafus. I know the editing world is divided here, though.
 
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 
Helvetica is awesome.

One space. Two spaces were a cobbled workaround for back when monospaced fonts demanded it.

We could always return to the glory days of classical Rome and TYPEALLSENTENCESINCAPITALLETTERSWITHOUTPUNCTUATIONORSPACESBETWEENSENTENCESATALL
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me...
There have been many nerdy things said on Hatrack. This is among the nerdiest.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
[Big Grin] And yet, what joy it brings into the world. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I'm also old. Back in the late 70s when I was in high school typing class, etc., we were also always told TWO. And that was how I learned.

Then in the early 80's I began working for a newspaper, and we were told to UNLEARN that, because two spaces would cause "guttering" (a line of spaces) in justified set type.

It would really screw me up in job interviews for awhile, because I had "unlearned" two spaces, for one space for the AP world of newspapers. So when I would take a typing test for a secretary job, the test would count me wrong for every missed "2 space". [Frown]

I think as eventually everything went to word processors, the one space became the norm. I don't know when they stopped teaching two space, since I was out of school by then.

FG
 
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
huh, that's the first time I've ever heard of the two space thing. In fact, in the EU legislative documents, all double spaces are an error, we need to do a quality check and it tells you to fix the spaces, no matter where they are.
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
Microsoft Word doesn't care if it is one space or two.
 
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
 
I think in email it's best to use just one space after everything, because otherwise a space might appear at the beginning of a line on the recipient's end. I was taught that when typing with a program for which this will not be a problem to put two spaces after a period, a question mark, or an exclamation point, but just one space after a colon.

Ideally, though, I think you want a little extra space after a comma; a little more extra space than that after a semicolon; a little more extra space than that after a colon; and somewhat more extra space than that after a period, question mark, or exclamation point (same amount for all three). Presumably the space amounts have this relative ordering because a semicolon marks a greater break in thought than a comma, etc. The exact amounts of extra space should be chosen differently for different fonts. Of course, you wouldn't bother with all of these distinctions unless your word processing program could make them automatically and justify everything. And I've almost never seen a book in which the spacing is done in this "ideal" way.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Maybe that's not actually ideal.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Omega M.:
I think in email it's best to use just one space after everything, because otherwise a space might appear at the beginning of a line on the recipient's end. I was taught that when typing with a program for which this will not be a problem to put two spaces after a period, a question mark, or an exclamation point, but just one space after a colon.

Ideally, though, I think you want a little extra space after a comma; a little more extra space than that after a semicolon; a little more extra space than that after a colon; and somewhat more extra space than that after a period, question mark, or exclamation point (same amount for all three). Presumably the space amounts have this relative ordering because a semicolon marks a greater break in thought than a comma, etc. The exact amounts of extra space should be chosen differently for different fonts. Of course, you wouldn't bother with all of these distinctions unless your word processing program could make them automatically and justify everything. And I've almost never seen a book in which the spacing is done in this "ideal" way.

Wow! And I don't think you've gone far enough. I think we should have different numbers of spaces after nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs and other parts of speech. Think of how much easier it'd be to diagram sentences!
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
I think I am about the same age as KQ and I was using computers as early as kindergarten. I definately used a word processor by 2nd if not 3rd grade and I was always told to put two spaces after a period. I had no idea it was considered wrong by anyone until this thread.

Learn something new everyday it seems.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Maybe you should put every single word in a different font. That would make it very easy to distinguish each word from every other word.
 
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
 
I have been typing almost every day for over 50 years. I have never heard of not using two spaces after a period. The "accomodations" that the word processing systems are evidently making without my knowledge perhaps explain why I can't seem to get columns with numbers to line up in Word. You learn something every day!
 
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
 
I'm sixteen and when I was in 1st and 2nd grade they were still teaching us two spaces after a period. In my case the teachers never said it was wrong, they just simply stopped telling us to do it.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
*wince*

You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.
 
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
 
When I had my first typing assignment, someone asked how many spaces to use. The librarian said it is recommended to "double space." I thought this meant that I needed to put two spaces after a period, but about four years later, I learned what "double spacing" meant, and when I recalled the situation, I realized the student who asked about spacing was grimacing at how close the words were together.

After I learned this, I asked my father how he did it, and he said he put one space after periods, so I worked long and hard to get out of the habit of putting two spaces after periods. Then, more than five years later, I was told by an English teacher that assignments handed in that didn't have two spaces after periods would not be accepted. I griped about how it took me two weeks to get into the habit in first grade, and five months to get out of it in fourth grade.

I'm still in the habit of placing one space after periods. Whenever I had to hand something in in high school, I just did CTRL+H once I finished the document.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
<--- uses monospace fonts most of the time
 
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
 
quote:
*wince*

You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.

Yah! I knew how to hit the decmil tab key on my IBM Executive. But, I haven't found one on this darn computer thing.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Just google "Microsoft Word tabs" and you should find plenty of tips and instructions.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
If you're using Word, go to Format|Tabs and select the sort of tab you want. You can then insert the appropriate tabs with the Tab key.
 
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
One space. And learn how to use en-dashes and em-dashes. And only use serial commas when they are needed for clarity.

Punctuation and spacing interfere with reading speed. That's why they exist. But they shouldn't call undue attention to themselves.
 
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
May I just point out that through this discussion I have been examining the look of posts who's posters claim that they use two spaces because it is more readable, or whatever.

I've been laughing the whole time because I can't see ANY difference between the posts which ostensibly have two spaces after the periods and those that don't. Something here on the website, I suspect, is fixing the difference for you anyway. You're just wasting your energy with hitting the space bar twice.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
This sentence has seven spaces before it, and fifteen spaces after the comma.
The forum software (actually, I'd assume it's just straight up html that's causing it) ignores more than one space, and leading spaces.
 
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
 
Thanks Tom and Jon. But, that presuposes that I can remember that until I need it again. We'll see.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
You don't have to remember it, since it's written down right here.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I just click on the ruler to set tabs.
 
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
 
I was told to use two spaces in school. I thought it was stupid, so I refused to do it.
 
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
 
FWIW, I always did the two space thing. For me, it is easier to read my own work. It makes little or no difference if I am reading for enjoyment/leisure. If I'm proofing, however, it inexplicably makes it much easier on me.

I imagine that double-space-barring is very similar in purpose to double-spacing lines in a scholarly work. It allows more room for notes to be written by the examiner in the blank spaces of the page. Just my 2c.
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
*wince*

You should NEVER use spaces to line up columns. It works fine with monospace fonts, but not with proportional fonts. Customize your tab stops instead. It actually saves time in the long run, too.

I line things up with spaces all the time. But it's always in monospace font, and I use a text editor (not a word processor) that is designed to do it efficiently.

quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
May I just point out that through this discussion I have been examining the look of posts who's posters claim that they use two spaces because it is more readable, or whatever.

I've been laughing the whole time because I can't see ANY difference between the posts which ostensibly have two spaces after the periods and those that don't. Something here on the website, I suspect, is fixing the difference for you anyway. You're just wasting your energy with hitting the space bar twice.

It is the html. Or more precisely it's the way your browser renders the html. You can view the source if you want, and you'll see that the number of spaces is preserved.

And, no, I'm not wasting my energy. One, it takes a negligible amount of extra time or effort to hit the spacebar twice (I spend much more time thinking than typing). And two, it makes it easier for me to look over what I've written. Now if I really cared how it looked to others I'd use two &nbsp; entities between every sentence. That would be a waste. Plus it would do weird things with line breaks.
 
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
Double Spacing: So Dumb And Outdated, Even The Internet Corrects It For You™
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I double space. It's a habit, and I'm not sure I could change it. I don't think I want to, either. I am fairly sure that the word processors I use (usually Microsoft Word) fixes it if the extra space happens to land at the beginning of a line. I think I'll continue to use the double space because it acts as a sort of mental end point for my thoughts. If I ever find that I need to submit something with only one space between sentences, I'll just type as usual and use find and replace to fix it later.

I had a keyboarding class in high school, but it was one of the last years those typewriters were used. They were replaced by computers while I was still there. I don't remember why I was taught the two-space rule--it was just what I was taught and have never heard anything different since then.
 
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
How bizarre. I read this thread, exclaimed to Tony "but why wouldn't you use double spaces?" and it turns out.... he's always used single spaces.

I've always been taught double spaces, he's been taught single - and he got taught typing ten years before I did.

He also always types single spacing after full stops for his manuscripts - and that's how they get published too.

Huh. Guess I got taught wrong.
 
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
In a collaborative writing project earlier this year, I had to go into two pages of type from one member of the group and edit out all the double spaces after the sentences because his section looked different from the rest of the 12 page paper. He was indignant. He was the only one of 6 people who had done it.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
I line things up with spaces all the time. But it's always in monospace font, and I use a text editor (not a word processor) that is designed to do it efficiently.

It sounds like you're talking about writing code, which is entirely different from creating documents which are intended to be read.
 
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me...
There have been many nerdy things said on Hatrack. This is among the nerdiest.
Thanks for justifing the surge of pride I had for agreeing with Tom.

*cringes at the idea of using monospacing on purpose*

Even today's "propotional" fonts are do not give perfect letter spacing & kerning. In my work as a signmaker, I will type out some copy, and frequently have to manually adjust the spacing in the words. Windows true-type fonts are the worst offenders The specially designed typefaces for our sign software are mostly ok, but still need the occasional nudge.

My order of priority when it come to displaying written copy for others to read is:
Clarity.
Smoothness. That is, not having one single thing cause the reader to stop and notice that it is out of place.

...just my thoughts
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
A signmaker?

Okay: you do know that quotation marks are not used for emphasis, right?

Okay, just checking!

[Wink]
 
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I've never heard of using only one space after periods. Never.

And now it's going to bug me. But I won't stop! You can't make me!
 
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
A signmaker?

Okay: you do know that quotation marks are not used for emphasis, right?

Okay, just checking!

[Wink]

Yeah, I guess I mostly used 'em because I know that the word proportional is not the correct term, and I couldn't think of the right one.

Signmaker I am, English major I am not. [Smile]

I use the term signmaker because signpainter is becoming increasingly outdated.

My apologies for going OT.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Oh, nonono! You used 'em correctly! I was just poking fun at a tendency I've noticed in the past among printers to make signs that say things like:

quote:
"Absolutely" no Checks!
Sorry for being unclear!
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
"Proportional" is indeed the correct term.
 
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
 
Hah! I think I have seen things like that. Stems from no imagination I guess.

[Razz]
 
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
"Proportional" is indeed the correct term.

Yes, after some digging in the Wiki, I see that proportional is the generally accepted term. I hadn't heard of it before. Thanks for teaching me something new!
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
I asked my Technical Writing professor. Her response is below. I mentioned many of the "older folks" here on Hatrack use double space and the "whipper snappers" use singel space.

quote:
Okay, the term "older folks" has me up in arms! Yes, us older folks did learn to space twice after the periods. Recently, within the past five years, maybe longer, us older folks have memory problems sometimes, publishers began spacing only once after periods. I imagine the publishers think they are saving space! For the same reason, saving space, publishers use fewer commas. Sometimes the missing comma can cause a problem of understanding. I suppose publishers feel that is the readers' problem. I certainly don't count spaces unless students put way too much space in a document. Now, you know the whole story.

 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I had to write my first ever APA style paper for a class I'm in. I let the teacher know it was my first, so it might not be perfect. It wasn't, and she was helpful in her reply. The last thing she said was to only single space after sentences. *sigh*

I bet that's not specifically an APA thing, though, and depends on whether the teacher is up on all the new fads.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
Now, you know the whole story.
This is an example of when I think it's okay to use fewer commas.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
nobody uses commas and periods anymore anyway lol jk jk [Smile]
 
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
isnt that lol jk jk [Wink] ?
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
I line things up with spaces all the time. But it's always in monospace font, and I use a text editor (not a word processor) that is designed to do it efficiently.

It sounds like you're talking about writing code, which is entirely different from creating documents which are intended to be read.
Yes and no. Maybe it's a stretch to say that what I write is intended to be read, but at the very least I intend my code to be readable. The difference is that the person reading my code can read it using whatever editor they want, with syntax highlighting and font of their choice (even proportional!).

In my opinion monospace fonts can be beautiful. Don't be hatin'!

Oh, and when I write documents of the kind you're talking about I do tend to compose in a monospace font, but the final product comes out differently. I haven't used LaTeX in a while, though.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
quote:
isnt that lol jk jk [Wink] ?
i will have to check my IMSpeak style manual...
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Now, you know the whole story.
This is an example of when I think it's okay to use fewer commas.
I always over-comma. I would have written it the same way she did. I was always horrible at English.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
On an unrelated note, does punctuation precede or succeed graemlins/emoticons?
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
In the case of quotation marks, I think the graemlins and emoticons should go with whoever owns the action/emotion.

I smile: I thought it was funny when Joe said, "I'm just a little turtle." [Smile]

Joe smiled: I thought it was funny when Joe said, "I"m just a little turtle. [Smile] "
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
brojack: Your professor is wrong about at least a couple of things. First off, it's been far longer than the past five years or so. Like I said earlier, I hated having to go by the old two-space rule when I learned to type 13 years ago. And anyway, the two-space rule was something employed for typewritten documents, not typeset and published works.

Also, using fewer spaces and fewer commas has nothing to do with an effort to save space. Using less puncutation is an effort to streamline the text and improve readability, because puncutation is an interrruption. If the goal were to save space, there are far more efficient ways of doing so, like choosing a narrower font.

And yes, that comma is entirely misplaced and ruins her intended meaning. But I suppose that's the reader's problem. [Wink]
 
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
 
It is partly to save space. Several of the conventions in AP style is to save space. The lack of a final serial comma is one of them.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Mike: I mean that code is a very different animal from regular text. With text, the goal is to have someone read from beginning to end. With code, you certainly want it to be readable, but obviously you're not going to read it like a book.

And anyway, my original point was that using spaces to line up columns is a bad idea because people learned it on typewriters (where you can get away with it) and carried over to word processors (where you can't).
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
When I started as a proofreader 19 years ago at National Geographic (yes, I'm old), I had to unlearn the two spaces between sentences habit.

Anyone here remember Atex?
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
It is partly to save space. Several of the conventions in AP style is to save space. The lack of a final serial comma is one of them.

Does it actually say that in the style guide? I'll admit I'm not very familiar with AP. I guess space is much more of an issue in newspapers than in books.
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
This is why I like engineering. We have national standards that specify what everyone should use. I guess I need to ask each professor at the beginning of term single space our double, hyphens or no hyphens.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I managed to get through college and four years of graduate school without a professor ever once caring whether I put one or two spaces after a period. I suspect most people's experience is similar.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Much of the typographic treatment that rings true to me...
There have been many nerdy things said on Hatrack. This is among the nerdiest.
Wow, I just went from nerd wannabe to über-nerd with one push of Tom's Reply button. [Smile] In this context, it's flattering.

As one who sees my copy worked into layouts and artwork on a daily basis, I appreciate designers who pay attention to typographic treatment. Some just plunk in the text and leave it; some know how to incorporate it into the design and bring out the meaning effectively. You can imagine which designers I prefer working with.

Check out Harley-Davidson's annual reports, especially 2002 and 2003, for examples of really good typographic treatment. These guys are sensitive to type.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
I managed to get through college and four years of graduate school without a professor ever once caring whether I put one or two spaces after a period. I suspect most people's experience is similar.

It's really a design/publication issue--I think that any teacher who marks off for it on a paper is being ridiculous. I never had to worry about it in school.
 
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
quote:
I think that any teacher who marks off for it on a paper is being ridiculous.
I think it's entirely fair for a teacher to demand adherence to a typographic standard especially in things like comp classes so I don't agree. At all.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Your prerogative. [Wink]
 
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I not only had professors give me grief about it in college, I still have a supervisor who tries to put the extra space in my writing today.

I don't have a problem with a teacher insisting on the correct typographic standard, but I have a SERIOUS problem with one insisting on enforcing an outdated one.
 
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I'm 21. I've never in my life been told to use a double space after periods and I've never in my life heard it said to someone else or mentioned in any form until this thread. To me, it seems odd and completely unnecessary.

If I were marked down for it by a Prof, I would think it was a joke.

EDIT: Oh, this is my 7000th post [Smile] .
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Mazel Tov.
 


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