Im writing a paper for my sociology class. For part of it I need to know what (in general) are the autostereotypes of US citizens (that is to say, what do you think about yourselves) and stereotypes about my nation (Polish). Dont worry, I am aware what they are gonna be... . I would be very grateful if you could write some of them. So- what Americans think abouth themsevles, and what do they think about Poles?
As an example, my friend's been doing the same about the Japanese. Japanese consider themselves hardworking, not caring about themselves, but about groups they belong to, they think they are more "western" than the chinese, and so on. Poles think about Japanese as most civilised in Asia, high- developed, precise and travelling all around Poland with cameras. Japanese think about Poles that we are very hospitable, drinking a lot and hot-headed.
So that's about something I'd like to know. Thank you in advance.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
We think poles are very useful. Firemen can slide down them, you can dance with them, hang flags from them, etc. etc.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
I am being serious, please.Although you helped already Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
We think we are awesome!
There are so many different Americans with so many self-perceptions that it is hard to say. If pressed, however, I think individualistic, freedom-loving, and egalitarian would be among the self-described characteristics. We don't like admitting that there are different classes in America but rather prefer thinking that there are the desperately poor, middle class, and fabulously wealthy, with 95% of everyone fitting into the middle class. I think there is a perception that we are innovative.
For Poles, well...there used to exist something called Polish jokes. They are about the level of most racial jokes - maybe less inflammatory because there aren't a consistent population of people of Polish descent across the U.S. so maybe they are about the level of "blonde" jokes. I would venture that for a lot of Americans, Polish jokes is about their only exposure to Poles at all. I know that a lot of Polish jokes were passed around my school precisely because no one knew anyone of Polish background.
Beyond that, I think Poland is lumped with all of the other Eastern bloc, former Soviet countries. Had a rough deal after World War II, now part of Europe, economy and general infrastructure not quite up to Western Europe levels but doing all right.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I think Americans (USA) are very geo-politically self-centered. And, of course, very personally self-centered. Since were are the center of the universe, we assume that everyone will accommodate us, and that whatever the problem is, we have the answer.
If I go to France, of course, they should speak English for my convenience, which, for the most part they do, but God forbid that I should have to learn French or Italian even on a primitive 'just get by' level. Though many Europeans are functional at a basic 'get by' level in many languages, most speak at least two or three at a reasonably conversational level. Americans barely speak English.
I also think we are a little LOUD. I don't think teenagers and young people in other parts of the world feel the need to constantly shout 'WOOO!', and generally yell and scream just to get noticed. That makes the world a little more dignified and the USA substantially less dignified.
While I am familiar with a wide range of Polish jokes and do laugh at them, I find that they are typically jokes you level at a culture you know nothing about, or alternately, a culture you are familiar with.
For example, here is a Norwegian joke that only Norwegians think is funny (I have Norwegian ancestry, by the way) - Did you hear the one about the Norwegian who love his wife so much he almost told her?
Most Polish jokes, are universally interchangeable, you can substitute any country for 'Polish' and it still works.
How many Poles does it take to screw in a light bulb? Seven, one to hold the bulb, and six to turn the ladder.
How many Englishmen does it take to screw in a light bulb? Seven, one to hold the bulb, and six to turn the ladder.
Though my knowledge of Poland is not that great, I do know this is a country that has struggled under great oppression. I also know that it has produced excellences in math, science, art, and music.
Having seen several travel logs of Poland, I would hope to go there someday.
So, my USA stereotype is that we are loud, self-centered, and wasteful.
My stereotypes of Poland are related to its struggle against oppression and tyranny, and of it excellence in arts and sciences.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
During the year my class had a Polish math teacher, we'd "Polandize" the class by adding "owski" to everyone's last name. That's really the most stereotypical thing about Poles I've seen in the States.
Steve/bluewizard: Cool! You're of Norwegian descent too?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
When I was in Poland last summer, I was surprised to find how beautiful the polish women are. There are few places I've traveled where I've seen so many really beautiful women and girls.
When I was young, there was a popular stereotype that Poles were slow and a bit lazy -- but that one seems to have largely disappeared. Now I think the most prevalent stereotype of Poles involves, beer, sausage, hard to pronounce names and rosary beads.
There is also a stereotype that is associated with all the former communist countries, people are poor, expect the government to take care of them, aren't innovative, live in dingy grey apartments and frown alot.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I would like to state ahead of time that I do not hold any of the following stereotypes as my personal beliefs or opinions, just that they're ones I've encountered.
Polish people are often characterized in jokes as stupid and flatulent and hairy (I'm not sure why, none of those have particularly applied to Poles I've known, although I'm sure they have their share as much as we do.) Poor is a definite stereotype of Polish people. And possibly "backward" as well (as in, a whole country full of hick farmers with no clue about social graces.)
American autostereotypes: we're overconsumers. We're wasteful, arrogant, fat and lazy (or else thin and overconcerned with our looks); we are loud and uneducated and uncouth; we are years behind Europe in many ways but have a delusion we are better than them. We're snobbish, or else rednecks. We are superficial. That's all I can think of right now...
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
KQ, That's certainly a stereotype that is widely held of Americans outside America but isn't an autostereotype a stereotype Americans have of themselves?
Americans think of themselves as the hero wearing the white hat. Since we are "the good guys", we can't understand why anyone wouldn't love us unless they are just evil.
Americans believe that the world is a meritocracy. Americans believe that we have more than other people because we work harder and do things right.
Americans think pride and greed are virtues.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I must run in different circles than you. Those ARE autostereotypes where I come from.
Though even within that same group, most of the people I grew up listening to on this subject still think we're the greatest country in the world. And that we welcome everyone. And the reason they would harp on those other things is because they love America and want it to be more like their ideal of what it should be. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
OK, KQ I run in those circles too but then I'm living outside the US right now.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Which brings up an interesting point; American autostereotypes may differ with political and religious affiliation, region of residence/rearing, etc. I'm not sure how much more or less autostereotypes would differ in other countries. Which brings up yet another-- we tend to see other countries as more culturally homogenous than us, and us as more tolerant and mixed, except for what we consider a "fringe element" of intolerant people-- even thought they may not be the fringe or even the minority at all.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: OK, KQ I run in those circles too but then I'm living outside the US right now.
I just live in L.A. and grew up surrounded by liberal hippie types.
Oh, got another one-- we're politically uneducated and unaware of the rest of the world until they infringe on our lives in some way.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Here is an interesting quote from today's "Trinidad News".
quote:Most of the rest of the world knows only too well the ugly America, the deployer of big bombs and brutally arm-twisting diplomats abroad, with its bewilderingly ignorant, guns-and-churches masses at home. But America as an Idea of Possibility without parallel in world history, America the Wonderful-after seven years of the Bush Administration's systematic debasement of that country, the world-and even more so, perhaps, Americans themselves-needed nothing less than a miracle to reaffirm that America. And last Tuesday they and we got it. Enter Barack Obama.
I think it really highlights the two radically different stereotypes of America that exist in the world.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
The problem with sterotypes is that 1) they simplify things, because we are unable to know everything and 2) they are emotionaly involved- so fact that you say you've never met a single Pole doesnt matter. When you hear Polish, first thing you see is a poor, hairy man, who is lazy. Am I right?
When in the US I was outraged (I was very, very young) that you dont know where Poland is! Then I stopped being outraged, for my fellow american kids didnt even know where Europe is exactly. Apart from that, I learned some marvelous things: you dont close your cars! This is unbelivable! I close my car even when I go to pay on a petrol station or paying for parkometer (thats how its called?). You are always saying: hi, how are you, and answering: how are you, wich is bizzare. Every day I went to school there was a policeman (it was in boston) who stopped the whole traffic, and it was quite a big crossing, to let me go just thru the middle of the street, so I wouldnt miss my bus. Thats what I remember, and its nice. Ahh, and you sell ice- creams in size, not number of "balls". Strange Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Thats what I remember, and its nice. Ahh, and you sell ice- creams in size, not number of "balls". Strange
Well we call them "scoops" not balls and it all depends on how and where you buy the ice cream. At a supermarket, it will come in 1 pint, 1 quart and 2 quart containers (sometimes larger as well) but if you go to an ice cream store (say Haagen Daas or Ben and Jerry's), they will sell it in 1, 2 or 3 scoop servings.
I'm not sure what you mean about closing our cars. Are you talking about locking the doors or turning off the engine. I think you would find that except in very small towns pretty much all Americans lock their cars these days.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I think you would find that except in very small towns pretty much all Americans lock their cars these days.
You see there is no difference in Polish between closing and locking, so my mistake (you always lock ). Yeah, I mean locking. For what I remember my host father didnt ever lock his car. And I remember sizes- small, regular and large...
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ice cream...well, it depends on the place. A lot of ice cream places in the US serve soft-serve ice cream, and that doesn't come in scoops.
Some of the places here do both....they have a size, but then under the size is a descriptions of how many scoops there are in the size. It isn't an American thing as much as it is dependent on the place you get it, and maybe a geographic location within the US.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
The vast majority of people I know stereotype most of their fellow Americans in the same way that KQ listed. And I can guarantee you, if you asked them, they would say that most Americans (you know, the ones they're stereotyping) would list the stereotypes Rabbit mentioned.
That is to say, the autostereotypes Rabbit listed are actually the stereotyped perception of what an accurate autostereotype would be, from the sort of Americans who believe they're above stereotyping.
I hope that was less confusing to read than it was to write.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Polish joke Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:When you hear Polish, first thing you see is a poor, hairy man, who is lazy. Am I right?
No. Oddly enough, I think of a middle-aged female deli owner.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: The vast majority of people I know stereotype most of their fellow Americans in the same way that KQ listed. And I can guarantee you, if you asked them, they would say that most Americans (you know, the ones they're stereotyping) would list the stereotypes Rabbit mentioned.
That is to say, the autostereotypes Rabbit listed are actually the stereotyped perception of what an accurate autostereotype would be, from the sort of Americans who believe they're above stereotyping.
I hope that was less confusing to read than it was to write.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
Hmmm, well i can only think of one polish sterotype, they like sausage, right?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:How many Poles does it take to screw in a light bulb? Seven, one to hold the bulb, and six to turn the ladder.
How many Poles does it take to change a lightbulb? You idiot. Don't change a lightbulb with a pole, just use your hands!
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
Hey, I like Polish Sausage even better that Brats.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xann.: Hmmm, well i can only think of one polish sterotype, they like sausage, right?
Sausage used to be main part of our meal (I dont remember that) in PRP (Peoples Republic of Poland). Now its used only for barbecue, campfires and such. It can be really tasty. It can be really awful. I recently buy kielbasa, for thats how its called in Poland, from my neighbor, who is a hunter. He makes it from venison and so on. Really nice.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Kielbasa is what we call Polish-style sausage here, too.
I think pierogies are my favorite Polish food. That, or stuffed cabbage leaves. We have a wonderful Polish restaurant nearby. Mmmm.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I made the most thoughtful and detailed post I have ever written on this forum here in this very thread. Spent at least an hour on it. And had it eaten, apparently.
Oh well, whatever. Maybe tomorrow the cliffs notes.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: The vast majority of people I know stereotype most of their fellow Americans in the same way that KQ listed. And I can guarantee you, if you asked them, they would say that most Americans (you know, the ones they're stereotyping) would list the stereotypes Rabbit mentioned.
That is to say, the autostereotypes Rabbit listed are actually the stereotyped perception of what an accurate autostereotype would be, from the sort of Americans who believe they're above stereotyping.
I hope that was less confusing to read than it was to write.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
I'm still not sure that this qualifies as an autostereotype. I haven't been able to find a definition on line, but it is my understanding that an autostereotype is a stereotype you hold of a group with which you self identify.
The Americans who hold these stereotypes are largely either counter-culture (hippies) or intelligentsia (college students, professors). The stereotype is one they hold of "mainstream America" a group they don't self identify with. It is a stereotype they have of "the other", a heterostereotype not an autostereotype.
I think to be an autostereotype we need to ask Americans who see themselves as "mainstream" how they see Americans.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
In the past I don't think I would have had any opinion of Poland at all. I was aware of Polish jokes but never thought there was any basis for them. Now, do to a hobby of mine, when I think of Poland, I think of the 1944 Warsaw uprising and the Grey Ranks.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:'m still not sure that this qualifies as an autostereotype. I haven't been able to find a definition on line, but it is my understanding that an autostereotype is a stereotype you hold of a group with which you self identify.
The Americans who hold these stereotypes are largely either counter-culture (hippies) or intelligentsia (college students, professors). The stereotype is one they hold of "mainstream America" a group they don't self identify with. It is a stereotype they have of "the other", a heterostereotype not an autostereotype.
This is exactly what I was thinking. It isn't an autostereotype if it only belongs to the "other." I doubt those who hold such a poor opinion of most Americans consider themselves to be one of "most Americans."
Posted by paigereader (Member # 2274) on :
ahhh... but how many americans does it take to screw in a light bulb??? 1 to screw in the light bulb and 1 to tell the rest of the world how america saved the world from darkness... that sums it up!
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:When you hear Polish, first thing you see is a poor, hairy man, who is lazy. Am I right?
No. Oddly enough, I think of a middle-aged female deli owner.
And I think of a physicist in his 30's. I guess he was kinda hairy now that I think about it Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I think of a paranoid bald homely engineering professor in his early 50s with really thick glasses and his beautiful 20 year old daughter.
I hadn't ever though about it before, but this family pretty well matched what I saw in poland. A lot of very beautiful women and at best average looking men.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
See, I grew up in the era of Lech Walesa. When I think of Pole I see shipyard worker sand miners first in line to stand up against the tyranny of communism. I picture a people of strong faith, and perhaps the greatest pope of the past century.
I read Michener's "Poland", and I see a history where brave people endured and brought nobility to the heart of Europe.
During the years that America's democracy was just beginning to bloom, the republic and the elected king of the Polish/Lithuanian Commonwealth, the largest country in Europe at that time, was disappearing.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:KQ, That's certainly a stereotype that is widely held of Americans outside America but isn't an autostereotype a stereotype Americans have of themselves?
I think most Americans do autostereotype Americans as wasteful, fat, uneducated, uncouth, etc. BUT I think Americans also tend to believe in a sort of common sense held by the average person, which trumps all of those negatives, and which Americans are more in touch with than counterparts who are more educated or more cultured. In fact, I think there is some sense that Americans have greater common sense precisely because of our flaws. We are the hero in the white hat AND the average flawed joe.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: That, or stuffed cabbage leaves. We have a wonderful Polish restaurant nearby. Mmmm.
We call them "golabki" which literally means- pidgeons . As a kid I really thought theyre birds.
As to autosterotypes- when posting that comment I wondered if I should ask one more question- is there something like american nation? You are all so mixed up, Mexicans, Afro-Americans, the English, the Irish and son on. So is it possible, that Americans dont make a nation? Sociology, in general, claims that nation has two indispencible elements: self- awareness of a group (nation) and ability to think- "we" and "them". So do you think, as white Americans- "we", including spanish-speaking and Afro-americans? Do you Afro-americans think "they" when thinking about white? So maybe this is the problem? Not being able to find a "mainstream" meaning- we are not a nation, at least not one like the English, French, Polish or German? For me, with all do respect to those I dont mention- Americans are either white: english-speaking, divided into two groups- northerns, more left-winged, democratic, social, rat-racing and so on, and southerns- conservatists, CSA supporters, chauvinists (do I spell it correctly?), and afroamericans-haters. Or afro-american- east coast, living only in cities, ghettos, poor, violent, family- loving, gangsta, listening to rap, creating a alternative culture. I am aware of great generalization, but thats what stereotypes are about, arent they? Spanish speaking dont fit into americans culture as I imagine it. I dunno why...
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
And is it really an insult to say "black"? "Afro- Americans" is soooo long...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That's a very good question.
I think we do make up a nation, but isn't homogenous at all. There's a dream of a melting pot, but it is more like a salad bowl where all different kinds of people exist together and touch but often bear no resemblance to one another.
If you are talking about what are Americans are like when abroad, then you are only talking about the 5% of Americans that can afford to and are interested in travelling abroad enough to actually do it. You can find some broad trends about Americans, but it will not apply to all. Most Americans are Christian; most Americans believe in democracy; most Americans believe in a meritocracy; most Americans are capitalists; most Americans think quite highly of the ideals that spurred the nation's creation. That isn't everyone, though, not by a long shot.
There are so few things that I would say even 90% of Americans believe in or think is endemic to being an American, and I think a belief that everyone has a chance to change their station in life is one of them. It is often not true, but there's a belief that it is, and that belief can be and often is self-fulfilling.
This is fascinating to me in terms of Europe, because what does it mean to be Polish? Is there a Platonic Poland that can be achieved even without the racial heritage? In other words, is it possible for, say, immigrants from Africa to become Polish? If so, how? If not, does that mean "Polish" is irrevocably connected to blood?
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I want to add a little side note about something that has enhanced my view of Poland, and of course, that is the Polish Pope.
I saw a biography of him on PBS-TV, and I was as deeply impressed by the country as I was by the man.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
quote:So is it possible, that Americans dont make a nation? Sociology, in general, claims that nation has two indispencible elements: self- awareness of a group (nation) and ability to think- "we" and "them"
I think that's one of the major elements in American Politics today: there are so many groups right now, who are all trying define America's national identity. You have Christian groups on one hand, claiming something like, "the majority of Americans are Christian," therefore, America should be a Christian Nation (in one form or another,) you also have those that want America to be the world's police force, etc.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: The vast majority of people I know stereotype most of their fellow Americans in the same way that KQ listed. And I can guarantee you, if you asked them, they would say that most Americans (you know, the ones they're stereotyping) would list the stereotypes Rabbit mentioned.
That is to say, the autostereotypes Rabbit listed are actually the stereotyped perception of what an accurate autostereotype would be, from the sort of Americans who believe they're above stereotyping.
I hope that was less confusing to read than it was to write.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
I'm still not sure that this qualifies as an autostereotype. I haven't been able to find a definition on line, but it is my understanding that an autostereotype is a stereotype you hold of a group with which you self identify.
The Americans who hold these stereotypes are largely either counter-culture (hippies) or intelligentsia (college students, professors). The stereotype is one they hold of "mainstream America" a group they don't self identify with. It is a stereotype they have of "the other", a heterostereotype not an autostereotype.
I think to be an autostereotype we need to ask Americans who see themselves as "mainstream" how they see Americans.
The people I have known who held these stereotypes always included themselves in them.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: This is fascinating to me in terms of Europe, because what does it mean to be Polish? Is there a Platonic Poland that can be achieved even without the racial heritage? In other words, is it possible for, say, immigrants from Africa to become Polish? If so, how? If not, does that mean "Polish" is irrevocably connected to blood?
This is so so so much complicated. But Ill give it a shot. -We speak one language. There is no other nation in the world to speak it. It is a very rare situation. You speak Polish- it means you're Polish. - When nations began to appear (18th, 19th) there was no Poland on a world map, even though a hundred years before we were the largest country in Europe. So we were politcally divided into three (Russian, Prussian (German) and Austrian Partiotions). Language and catholic faith united us, because borders couldnt from 1795 until 1918. Short period of blossoming, being the "Paris of the east" (about our capital), then german occupation, then soviet. We became a closed country. There were no immigrants. Just Poles. This is so different from USA. There are more and more foreigners in Poland now, but it is a very new thing. We have plenty of vietnamese. We dont like them. The truth is, that to be a Pole, you just need to be born in a Polish family. Speaking Polish makes you Polish, as I said. We dont really think someone is polish if they dont or speak funny. Thats the main thing, I suppose. I have a friend who is Polish and black (quite rare). I consider her fully Polish, because her language is fluent, even though she's part Cuban. And we still have a complex of being diminished to a minor role. We used to be the most important state in Europe. We hate it when Germans laugh at us, that we are thieves. We hate it to be considered poor. We crave to be noticed, looked up to.(check OSC's "A boy from Poland"- very true)
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: The vast majority of people I know stereotype most of their fellow Americans in the same way that KQ listed. And I can guarantee you, if you asked them, they would say that most Americans (you know, the ones they're stereotyping) would list the stereotypes Rabbit mentioned.
That is to say, the autostereotypes Rabbit listed are actually the stereotyped perception of what an accurate autostereotype would be, from the sort of Americans who believe they're above stereotyping.
I hope that was less confusing to read than it was to write.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
I'm still not sure that this qualifies as an autostereotype. I haven't been able to find a definition on line, but it is my understanding that an autostereotype is a stereotype you hold of a group with which you self identify.
The Americans who hold these stereotypes are largely either counter-culture (hippies) or intelligentsia (college students, professors). The stereotype is one they hold of "mainstream America" a group they don't self identify with. It is a stereotype they have of "the other", a heterostereotype not an autostereotype.
I think we understand each other relatively well. My point was that I have never seen an American for whom that was an autostereotype ("that" being America as the Good Guys, the way you described it). I think it's a common stereotype of "mainstream America" by elitists, such as the two groups you specified.
The group so quick to lump "Mainstream America" into such an ignorant stereotype is also the type not to self-identify with very many stereotypes, from what I've seen. As a matter of fact, I think they're the kind of people who think stereotyping is bad.
... You know, I think I should add a disclaimer to my bitterness. I grew up in Berkeley. So, yeah. There is that.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
I like Rabbit's autostereotypes.
In fact, I was considering calling into an NPR talk show to ask a member of the Iraqi government if he thought that the average Iraqi understood that the average American had no designs on Iraqi resources -- that the average American thought that the US was still in Iraq to help, not exploit.
Before you all go yelling at me about how I don't really understand what the average American thinks about the war in Iraq -- I am using this example to describe MY autostereotypes. I'm not saying I'm right -- I'm saying it is my autostereotype.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I think we understand each other relatively well. My point was that I have never seen an American for whom that was an autostereotype ("that" being America as the Good Guys, the way you described it). I think it's a common stereotype of "mainstream America" by elitists, such as the two groups you specified.
This is where our experience differs. I've known hundreds of Americans who embrace that stereotype of America. I'm not talking about an impression I've gathered from the media. I'm talking about personal experience with friends, family, church members, people I've canvased on the street, school teachers and students.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rubble: I was considering calling into an NPR talk show to ask a member of the Iraqi government if he thought that the average Iraqi understood that the average American had no designs on Iraqi resources -- that the average American thought that the US was still in Iraq to help, not exploit.
Before you all go yelling at me about how I don't really understand what the average American thinks about the war in Iraq -- I am using this example to describe MY autostereotypes. I'm not saying I'm right -- I'm saying it is my autostereotype.
I can add to your stereotype, my experience. I've spent a many hours over the past few years in peace rallies talking literally to the men and women on the street about the Iraq war. They fall roughly into to camps, those who oppose the war because they think its all about resources and those who support the war because they sincerely believe we are helping the Iraqi people. I've never yet met one who admitted to supporting the war and believed we were there to take their resources.
Now my experience doesn't not qualify as a study, its just a collection of anecdotes. Its entirely possible that most Americans want to take Iraq's resources they just won't talk to peace activists on the street about it.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Szymon, when you mentioned language as the determining a factor in being Polish, I was reminded of my own personal "Polish" joke. I was in Basic Training for the US Air Force in August of 1969. The Viet-Nam war was in full play, and the training facility was operating at full capacity. New Airmen were being processed in batches that often were regional. My cohorts included a large group from Hamtramik Michigan. Many persons there are of Polish descent. One day a large group, perhaps 70, were taken to an auditorium for testing. We were told that we all had told our recruter that we were bi-lingual and now were to be tested. If we passed the test, it would be a positive note in our service record and could result in a desirable assignment. If we failed, it would indicate that we had lied to the recruter and would be a negative note in the service record and could result in an undesireable assignment. Then they brought out the tests. We were all sitting at strict attention, I was on the front row. I heard a rustle behind me, but did not turn to look. I remember there were 2 Russian tests, 5 German tests, about 20 Spanish tests. They were all called out and handed to persons who raised their hand. The rest of the tests were Polish. They called "POLISH" several times with no response. I then looked behind me. The room was almost empty.
By the way, where I come from, a majority speak at least some Spanish. Spanish speaking is certainly within mainstream "American Culture" as I know it.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Isn't there an episode of the Simpsons where they join the Model UN, and Milhouse represents Poland?
Skinner: Poland, let's hear your nation's accomplishments. Milhouse: Well....I heard they sent a rocket to the sun once....at night. And there was that submarine....with the screen doors...
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:I think we understand each other relatively well. My point was that I have never seen an American for whom that was an autostereotype ("that" being America as the Good Guys, the way you described it). I think it's a common stereotype of "mainstream America" by elitists, such as the two groups you specified.
This is where our experience differs. I've known hundreds of Americans who embrace that stereotype of America. I'm not talking about an impression I've gathered from the media. I'm talking about personal experience with friends, family, church members, people I've canvased on the street, school teachers and students.
A lot of this definitely depends on where you grew up and where you now live. A lot of New Orleanians are not too happy about America because they feel it didn't take care of them while the government threw tons of money at Iraq instead. I haven't been in Baton Rouge long enough to really hang out with a lot of people from here.
In Florida, we were all, um, Floridians, and we loved the space program. "Yay America" applied to Fourth of July parades and fireworks.
-pH
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Heh heh heh when i think polnd i see the hot blonde girl that sits in front of me.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: Hey, I like Polish Sausage even better that Brats.
Blasphemy!
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:I think we understand each other relatively well. My point was that I have never seen an American for whom that was an autostereotype ("that" being America as the Good Guys, the way you described it). I think it's a common stereotype of "mainstream America" by elitists, such as the two groups you specified.
This is where our experience differs. I've known hundreds of Americans who embrace that stereotype of America. I'm not talking about an impression I've gathered from the media. I'm talking about personal experience with friends, family, church members, people I've canvased on the street, school teachers and students.
A lot of this definitely depends on where you grew up and where you now live. A lot of New Orleanians are not too happy about America because they feel it didn't take care of them while the government threw tons of money at Iraq instead. I haven't been in Baton Rouge long enough to really hang out with a lot of people from here.
In Florida, we were all, um, Floridians, and we loved the space program. "Yay America" applied to Fourth of July parades and fireworks.
-pH
I think that's true. Where you live has a lot to do with it. In Berkeley, it's hard to find anyone who thinks America represents anything other than naked greed and imperialism.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
When I was an American exchange student in Russia, I had a conversation with a Russian friend in which we decided that Americans' greatest flaw AND greatest virtue was impatience. Americans aren't very good at patiently enduring things; we seek to change them instead. This is often a virtue; many things NEED to be changed, many problems need to be fixed, many injustices need to be stopped. (Where the problem comes in, is when we CAN'T fix something and HAVE to endure it.)
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
:::polish joke:::
Did you hear what happened to the Polish gangster? They made him an offer he couldn't understand.
:::armenian analog:::
Did you hear about the Armenian gangster? They made him an offer, and he refused.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
How to sink a Polish Navy Ship? Launch it
About Americans- one of my favourite journalists wrote once that he likes Americans, because they are the only nation with a vision. There is some truth in that... This is complementary, I think, with Yozhik's impatience...
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote: We have plenty of vietnamese. We dont like them.
Aww. Sad day...
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
We as Poles. I dont mind Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Auto-stereotypes:
American autos are stereotypically enormous gas guzzlers. They aren't particularly reliable and wear out fast.
Polish Autos: Are there any autos made in poland? I'd expect them to be small, boxy, slow, rusty and held together with bailing wire.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Here is one more autostereotype of Americans, I even include myself in this one.
Americans love a bargain. We are suckers for anything marked 40% off. Hence the proliferation of outlet stores, bargain basements, big box stores and yard sales. This isn't something that is limited to any particular class or race in America. It certainly isn't limited to the poor. Even the wealthy can't resist a two for one sale.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Maybe it is not exactly a post for this thread, but I dont want to start a new one. I was planning to make a trip to the USA with my sister next year. We both speak English quite well so its not a problem. The problem, obviously, is money. We wanted to make a trip for 3 maybe 4 weeks with a car. So- 1. Is it better (cheaper) to buy an old one (what about insurance) or to rent one? 2. How expesive is life, I mean, if we lived in motels? How much does a night cost? 30$? 40$? How much does a bottle of milk cost, and a loaf of... no, you dont have bread in America A pizza? 3. Is it better to visit east or west? Or middle, maybe? What is worth visiting (Except for the cities?)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
How much do you want to see?
If you're only driving, I suggest picking a section of the country - for instance, the West coast or the East coast. If I were only driving for three weeks, I'd consider the East coast and parts of the South for number of cities and history, or else the West coast and parts of the Rocky mountains for the scenery and wilderness. Considering you're from Europe, I'd go for the West coast and the Rockies - there's nothinglikeUtah in Europe, I don't think.
Don't visit the middle. There's good stuff in the middle - especially Texas - but it is too far apart to try and enjoy all in one trip. You'll spend more time traveling than doing anything else.
For two people, the hotel price is skewing low unless you stay in the absolute cheapest flophouses. Especially in California or on the East coast, it will be more - at least $25 more unless you do some insane planning ahead of time.
Between buying and renting...depends on how much planning you have to do and how much time you're willing to spend with it, or whether you have someone in the States to take care of things for you. Unless you want to spend at least three-four days of your vacation looking for and getting rid of the car, renting will be cheaper. You don't want to spend your vacation running around getting things registered and transferred - add in all the hotel and time and insurance and registration fees and probable complications, and renting would be easier. Use Priceline or Hotwire to get a cheap tiny rental. Buying is either hassle-free or it is cheap, but it is not both.
Also, are you sure you could drive legally? I've never looked into it, but I don't think a European driver's license is transferable to the States - you may not be legal to drive at all unless you do some stuff beforehand.
You're probably better off all the way around getting a bus pass - I think you can a Greyhound pass for a month that gives you unlimited rides.
---
General advice for Europeans: things are farther apart than you think. It is farther from Seattle to Los Angeles than it is from London to Warsaw. Texas is farther across than France is. You could drive from Warsaw to Paris faster than you could drive from Boston to Atlanta.
What kinds of things are looking to see/do?
[ June 11, 2008, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
You know its always been my dream to go in my own car and listen to "Are you going to San Francisco" and so on, if you know what I mean. That's why I want to rent a car (I see it's seems to be too much trouble to buy one). That is also a reason we changed our mind and dont want to travel east-west or the other way around.
What I'd like to see? I want to have a clear mind, that when I come back I wont hear: You've been to the west coast and havent seen...?! Id like to do some travelling as well, always wanted that.
How much would I need? Presuming we'll but some souvenirs, not the cheapest, but not fancy food either? 5000$ apiece? I have no-one in the US to help me with anything...
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
The timing is so good for travelling these days, you know. Dollar in Poland costs 2,2, it used to cost 4,0 about 5 years ago. You have very cheap petrol. Now or never Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Does the $5000 include air fare? Then that should be enough for four weeks on the West Coast with enough to spare that you can get some cool souvenirs.
There are many, many Hatrackers in California, Oregon and Utah. If you're planning a West coast/Rocky mountain trip and have an idea of what you want to see, I'd start a thread, ask for suggestions, and start planning. They'll probably even organize a party or two for you, especially in Los Angeles.
Scenery, history, cultural things, all of the above?
For the West coast/Rocky mountains trip: Los Angeles Disneyland - just a day will do San Francisco - at least two and maybe three days minimum Monterey Bay Aquarium and nearby tidal pools Las Vegas Redwood forest Zion's National park Grand Canyon Portland, Oregon Seattle with the ferry boats and the Experience Music Project
I have to throw in: Salt Lake City Mesa Verde near the Four Corners An Indian reservation in New Mexico or Arizona where you can buy overpriced native jewelry and possibly see some dancing
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
If you are interested in seeing nature, go west and hit as many national parks as you can. You can buy an annual pass for ~$50 that will get you into all the parks. While there are many scenic places that aren't in the parks, the park system is a great start for someone who doesn't know there way around. Most of the best places are in the parks, they are all on the maps and they have great staff who can direct you to what to see.
Its usually possible to find inexpensive hotels (motel 6, super 8 etc.) near the parks but they may be crowded in summer if you don't have reservations. Americans may scowl at motel 6 but its not bad by European standards, you will have a large room with a private bath and clean sheets. Hostels and budget hotels with shared bathrooms are very uncommon in the US. If you want to go budget, bring a tent and sleeping bags and camp which is usually under $10 per group. If you are adventurous, they are many places where you can legally camp for free.
The greyhound option isn't a good one if you choose the national park tour since the greyhound buses generally don't go into the national parks and most of the parks have no public transportation. If you make reservations ahead of time you can rent a car for a month for as little as $500 (insurance not included). Car rentals prices are much higher if you don't pick it up and drop it off in the same place. So if you were to pick up a car in New York and try to drop it off in LA after crossing the country, you'd pay a much higher price. I'm told that if you rent prepaid from Europe you can get insurance bundled with the car for cheap. If you add insurance in the US it will double the price of renting (or more). Be sure to factor in the cost of gas which is no longer negligible in the states.
If you want to see cities, do the east coast. In that case greyhound is a good option. Rental may actually be cheaper than two bus passes but if you add in gas, parking in the cities and such its likely to be far more expensive. Hotels near the downtown of most major US cities are very expensive. You will be hard pressed to find anything for under $100/night unless you are willing to stay quite far from downtown.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: You have very cheap petrol. Now or never
Out of curiosity, how much does it cost in Poland?
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
For the Indian jewelry, I have heard that you can buy it in New Mexico and sell it for double in Europe. So, it might not be so overpriced. Buying on the reservation is usually a lot cheaper. I saw a piece similar to mine at a mall and it was like 3 times more then what I had paid on the reservation and mine was better quality. Also, you have to watch out for fake Indian jewelry. There is a town in some third world country that renamed themselved Zuni, so they can legally put "Made in Zuni" on their pieces. For me, the big issue is that they don't use the metals they claim to, but still charge as though they are.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
In answer to your question about food prices, it varies quite a bit depending in what region of the country you're in, I think. In SW Ohio, a gallon of milk is currently around $3, I think (but I don't buy a lot of milk, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if someone were to correct me). The price of pizza varies quite a bit, even within a particular city. The cheapest place with edible pizza that I've found in Dayton is $4 for a 10 inch cheese pizza, but my favorite place is more in the neighborhood of $15 for the same thing, and there are certainly more expensive places. When I go out for lunch, I generally end up spending about $10.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
I have to start collecting money then. To be honest I thought that food is a bit cheaper, but I see its the same as it is in Poland.
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by Szymon: You have very cheap petrol. Now or never
Out of curiosity, how much does it cost in Poland?
A gallon of petrol in Poland costs exactly 7,8 dollars if I counted correctly, and I belive I did. How much is it in the US?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Four dollars and going up.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:They'll probably even organize a party or two for you, especially in Los Angeles.
Any excuse for a shinda!
And you can too get bread here-- we have several European-style bakeries in my area. (French, German, and several Armenian bakeries in a 10-minute radius from my house, off the top of my head.) You just have to know where to look. (Trader Joe's also has some pretty darned good bread.)
Food prices, as mentioned, will vary with the region. They are also going up. You're going to want to hit Farmer's Markets if you can for produce, I know you European types aren't particularly used to or fond of our anemic genetically engineered fruits and veggies.
And yeah, the cheapest motel I've EVER met in SoCal is $45/night. That's before taxes and such. I usually count on a BARE MINIMUM of $70/night average including taxes and such. Of course, Jatraqueros are often willing to provide lodging if they like you. (I'd offer our couch but, well, it's in use-- our four-year-old took our bedroom and we're sleeping on the couch next to the baby.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, and renting a car will be significantly cheaper than buying. If you buy you're not only paying the price of the car, but also title and registration fees (which will be tricky without a permanent U.S. address), etc., etc.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Hey you should come to Chicago! Here motels are pretty cheap.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Plus, there's a really nice hostel in downtown Chicago that's only about $30 a night (or that's what it was when I stayed there in 2005).
KQ's right about bread, farmer's markets, and Trader Joe's (though in many parts of the country farmer's markets are seasonal affairs). She's also right about forum-folk likely being willing to put you up. If by some mischance you end up in Southwestern Ohio, I've got a couch and an air mattress that you guys would be welcome to crash on for a couple of nights.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If you come to Washington D.C. and are willing to sleep on mattresses in the living room, you're welcome to stay with me.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Chicago is lame.
Visit the east coast and the South.
-pH
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Chicago is cool, but it's too far away from other stuff.
Pick a coast. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Chicago is cool, but it's too far away from other stuff.
Pick a coast.
Yep.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They have mountains near the east coast, too. And Disney World. And the Fountain of Youth...and, um, whatever they have up in them thar cold New England states.
Also, awesome beaches.
-pH
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you visit the coasts, keep in mind that the coasts are where we send all the crazies.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
A subscriber to the "tilted contenent" theory of population drift are we? Anything that is loose and rattling around will eventually end up in Los Angeles.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*raises hand*
Works for me. Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
I luvs teh Amerikas.
Personally I'd recommend a trip to Boston and environs. I had a blast being reminded of the shortcomings of my imperial ancestors
Cali-forn-I-A is wierd but fun. I only wish I'd been a Jatraquero when I was there, I'm sure it would have been even more fun.
A friend of mine did a fly-drive holiday up the west coast of the the US over two weeks and had a great time. She even made some spending money from the balckjack tables in Las Vegas, but she *is* part cylon calculating machine.
Have a great time in the US - despite the image you may have from the media, 100% of the Americans I have met on my travels have been friendly, helpful and only too eager to join in the adventure.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: They have mountains near the east coast, too. And Disney World. And the Fountain of Youth...and, um, whatever they have up in them thar cold New England states.
Also, awesome beaches.
-pH
The things they call mountains in the east, barely qualify as hills in the west.
Here is my recommendation. Take a train to Berlin and then fly airberlin direct to San Francisco. Spend a couple days in San Francisco (easily the most interesting city west of the Mississippi) then rent a car and head north up the Pacific Coast highway. Stop in Redwood National Park. Make your way up the coast to Seattle. Definitely stop at Mt. Rainier. The Olympic National Park is terrific too, especially the rain forest but you really need to hike to see it. From Seattle head west to Glacier National Park and then swing south through Yellowstone and Grand Teton. Continue heading south through Salt Lake, which isn't really worth seeing but there are a bunch of jatraqueros there and its on the way to spectacular National Parks to the south. Bryce Canyon, Zion National Park and the north rim of the Grand Canyon are must see locations. There are many other parks in the area and all are worth visiting, Mesa Verda and Rocky Mountain National parks are great but they are a bit of a detour if you are trying to loop back the SF. From north rim of the Grand Canyon, head on to Las Vegas.
From Las Vegas you swing south to the LA area, spend a day at Disney Land, go to the beach, and see KQ and rivka, or you could turn north and go through Sequoia, Kings Canyon and Yosemite National Parks. I'd definitely do the parks but then I find Disneyland in midsummer is a form of inhuman torture (really long lines). You might be able to squeeze in both but before getting back to SF for your flight but it would be very rushed.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Thanks Rabbit, that is quite a plan. I got a year, but with so many plans of yours (Hatrackers) I need to start choosing the best one right now or I wont make it in time. Are KQ and rivka on the beach all the time?
And by the way- how do you pronounce Yosemite? Is it Yos-eh-might or Yos-eh-mitty or else?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
LOL! I wish I lived on the beach! (Well, not really. I'm a mountain lover more than a beach lover-- my dad's a beach lover. But I like the beach.)
No, rivka and I (and my family) are just the ones that are usually able to make ourselves available to Jatraqueros passing through. You may or may not, depending on their schedules, also manage to get hold of the Meeses (Papa Moose, Mama Squirrel, and their adorable children), LadyDove, and assorted other people who live within a two hours' drive.
Yosemite is usually pronounced either Yoh-ZEH-mit-ee or Yo-ZEH-mit-ay.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I do not wish I lived on the beach. Sand everywhere! All the time! >_<
I like visiting the beach. Don't do it nearly often enough.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That's true. And storms flooding your house.
I actually meant "I wish I had the kind of lifestyle where I could AFFORD to live on the beach."
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Yeah, but then you'd have all sorts of snotty celebrity riffraff for neighbors.
I agree on the western US being a good choice.
When I lived near San Francisco, my Japanese relations came out to visit from Nagoya, and we wished that we could have shown them around where we had been living in Omaha. Just about every Japanese tourist, when seeing the US, will croon in amazement, "Soooo....Biiiiiiig!"
When I've gone to Yellowstone, Arches, Yosemite, etc., the places were choc-a-bloc with Euro tourists, so they must appeal.
About stereotypes--from what I can tell, most Americans agree that the country was founded primarily on Judeo-Christian principles, by primarily Judeo-Christian people. The split is in how people feel about that.
IMAO, nationality is a matter of what language your kids speak and what you eat at breakfast. Which means the US is a series of smaller nations. When I moved from Washington state to Biloxi, Mississippi, I felt like I'd moved to an entirely different country. I think Canada would have been more familiar.
I grew up military and from my personal experience (born in DC, lived in Omaha and San Francisco, then high school in the mountain states, married here in Pacific northwest)--
People in the East tend to be more like Europeans, and there are older buildings there. The West doesn't have old buildings, except for Spanish missions, the Winchester mansion, and Hopi puebloes. In the West, "antique" means "has two coats of paint". Forget about the buildings and look at the national parks.
The crazy and rich, sometimes both at once, are on the coasts. The middle is practically empty and very cheap as a result.
The East is more formal, which you may find either more polite, or just snootier. It's pretty in the fall, but don't bother in the summer, unless you're going to the beach South Carolina or something.
Florida is fun but if you go to Orlando the local drinking water is disgusting; buy bottled.
If you go to the Gulf Coast, eat shrimp.
Yellowstone is nice and crowded in the summer. I think the best bookings are in West Yellowstone, but I'm a cheapo.
California is pretty, but people there both believe heartily in tolerance and as a group don't always practice it. You'll get both ends of the stick, being both white AND foriegn.
Montana is pretty, but bulging with Californian carpetbaggers, which means the locals are grumpy because they can't buy houses, but are eating really good food now. (the best restuarants in the world, IMAO, are in CA).
The mountain states (Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Colorado) are pretty, especially if you're into mountains and deserts. Some are, some aren't.
People in the middle and in mountain states are generally very friendly. The smaller the town, and the more lost you look, the more people will take you on as a personal cause and try to help.
People will seem friendly in the South, but aren't really. Or, some are, but others aren't, and are so good at smiling anyway, that you can't tell the difference. :)If that doesn't bother you, have fun there, but don't go in summertime if you can help it. (it's really hot and muggy)
I don't know what your feelings on American religion are; my Euro friends thought I was quaint for being a "modern day Puritan" and so they had a passing interest in seeing some Amish people. If you do too, Amish Central is in Pennsylvania, but there are Amish/Mennonite/Hutterite groups all over the country.
You will find a lot of bargain-shopping in the US. Most of the bargain-shopping I've done has been in port cities like San Fran, Seattle and Orlando. I presume that it's Germans, foreign and domestic, that are searching for the best deals. (I can say that. I'm part German.)
There's my autostereotypes; hope your trip in America is fun.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Oh, and, Poland and Poles--
My brother had some Polish friends when we lived in San Francisco. They were girls, and nice, and very strong! and pretty, in a golden skinned, blue-eyed way.
Unlike some of my other European acquaintances, my Polish friends don't think that religious Americans are crazy by definition. It's hard not to think better of Poles, since they're thinking better of ME.
It's hard to characterize Americans, since a lot of us think that being American means getting to define yourself. Selecting an autostereotype is as hard as trying to organize an Anarchists' Club meeting.
In small town America, if you are honest, smile and shake hands firmly with the men, then you'll generally get by.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
When I hear "Polish" I think of Reverse Polish Notation, which is a way to write down math problems. Some calculators (notably HP's) use RPN. If I wanted to add 5 and 6, I would press 5, enter, 6, plus instead of 5, plus, 6, equals.
I also think of Poland as a country that got a raw deal in World War II and its aftermath. I know that a large percentage of its Jewish population was killed or forced out. I'm under the impression that Poland is strongly Roman Catholic, but that might just be because of Pope John Paul II.
If you'd like to see a wide range of outdoor scenery and climates, the Pacific Northwest (Oregon and Washington, on the West Coast) is a good option, in my biased opinion. We have beaches, forests, mountains, lakes, high desert, and river valleys. Granted, the beaches here are not like Hawaii or California. You probably don't want to go swimming in the ocean here without a wetsuit to keep you warm.
What sort of experience are you looking for? Cultural? Historical? Scenery? Do you want to spend your time seeing things or doing things, or some of both? Do you want to see a whole bunch of things or settle down for a few weeks and experience what it's like to live here?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ever since I got my new computer it's been driving me crazy that I don't have a RPN calculator on it.
*goes out to find one*
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: It's hard to characterize Americans, since a lot of us think that being American means getting to define yourself. Selecting an autostereotype is as hard as trying to organize an Anarchists' Club meeting.
I have to write it down somewhere. Im not mocking you, it seems like you got a point here. A strong one.
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: What sort of experience are you looking for? Cultural? Historical? Scenery? Do you want to spend your time seeing things or doing things, or some of both? Do you want to see a whole bunch of things or settle down for a few weeks and experience what it's like to live here?
I definitly dont want to settle down- our plans with my sis are to travel, see as many things as possible. I suppose it means seeing thing, not doing thing, but Im not quite sure what you mean by doing? If you mean canoe drafting- then no, we dont want to (money). I would love to see some scenery maybe Zion, Nevada NPs, but my sis probably prefers cities, so that's culture I think. And about historical- yeah, but what?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
You and your sister should be aware that most US cities don't have much to see, at least compared to European cities. Most US cities suffer from urban sprawl. The middle class has moved out to the suburbs leaving the cities centers to decay. The suburbs are a waste land of strip malls and cookie cutter neighborhoods while the city centers are a mix of business zones with high rise office buildings and decaying crime ridden ghettos. There is very little in the way of public art and architecture, museums are scarce (by European standards), and most cities have little history to explore.
There are some exceptions, in the west San Francisco is great and Seattle is alright. Some people might add Las Vegas to that list, but its more of a Disneyland for adults than a city.
In the Eastern half of the country, New York, Boston, Washington DC and Chicago are all interesting cities worth visiting. I've spent time in many of the other cities on business and at international conferences. While many of them have a few interesting spots and nice people, I can't think of any others that are really worth visiting on vacation unless you are going to see friends.
The big problem with going to see US cities, even the most interesting US cities, is expense. What the cities have to offer, museums, theater, music, restaurants, and so forth is all expensive.
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