quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
tears the size of waterfalls coming from the characters eyes and all things like it are a BLIGHT on the world.

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See, I'm no student of anime, but from my limited exposure, it seems like the entire art form depends on deliberate exaggeration.
 

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Posted by Zhil (Member # 10504) on :
 
Monster - Genius surgeon saves psycho kid from death, psycho kid grows up to be psycho serial killer, genius surgeon becomes less-than-sane vigilante. Has an awesome detective chasing their asses all around europe. Awesome character development.

Saikano - Devestating war makes Japan have the bright idea of transforming a high school girl into an abominable war machine. She and her boyfriend try to run away and live together as long as they can. Depressing.

Code Geass - High school comedy/political thriller/military tactic/mecha. Awesome character development. The protagonist is tragic, Machiavellian, ruthless, probably evil, and yet he is most definitely the good guy. Unlike a lot of mecha anime I've watched, this one is less about overpowering mechs that can mow down the bad guys like Rambo, and more about the protagonist's tactical genius. Some of the things that he plans is unbelievable and awesome. WARNING: character design is by CLAMP. Everyone looks anorexic.

Gundam 00 - I personally think it's better than Gundam Wing. Also harps on the "war is bad" theme, but this time they sometimes showcase the hypocrisy of trying to stop war by fighting in gigantic war machines.

I also recommend Gunslinger Girl, Noir, Paranoia Agent and Cowboy Bebop.
 

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Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
 
I definitely second Black Lagoon. Monster was good, but be warned, it's ~75 episodes long (I think 43 minute long episodes too, though I may be mistaken on that).

The most recent one that I've watched that REALLY sticks out is Bokurano. It may very well be the best anime that I've seen to date.

I was also a very huge fan of Elfen Lied. It contains some nudity, and lots of violence, but it has a solid story and characters that I liked. It contains one or two cliches, but nothing deal breaking.

All of the above are definitely serious Animes not suitable for children.

Edit: Bokurano is technically a giant robot Anime, which is a HUGE cliche, BUT it doesn't really focus on it. In fact, I would almost consider it nothing more than a catalyst to bring the characters together to give them an excuse to tell their stories, which are FANTASTIC.
 

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Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
 
The first anime I saw that actually made me look deeper into the style... that showed me that anime can be made lacking even the barest trace of the traditional anime tropes (sweatdrops, nosebleeds, etc.)... was Berserk.

I watched fansubs and Hong Kong subs, and I have never seen the dub, so I can't speak to the quality of that. Also, in my opinion, the first episode is pretty lousy. But overall I think it's a truly spectacular show. And probably right up your alley.

I'll also second Cowboy Bebop.
 

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Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
 
The problem with Berserk is that they didn't finish it... the ending just kinda fades away. Apparently, you have to read the Manga to get the rest of the story.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I like G Gundam. It's less about war than it is about one on one tournament style combat, but it also gets a little wacky with the subplot stuff.

You MIGHT like Blue Gender. I don't remember what the twist at the end was, but it's somethinga long the lines of Earth being taken over by aliens and they send gundam type mechs down to fight them or something. I remember liking it.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Berserk is a pretty dark manga, now I wish I had watched past the first episode of the anime.

I'll third Cowboy Bebop.

You might consider trying Orphen. Freelance magician with a haunted past, who is still developing his powers, who travels with an apprentice and a girl who wants to ditch her boring life. I watched about 5 episodes and found it to be quite enjoyable. Blockbuster only had one DVD which is why I stopped watching.

I also recommend Hellsing, not to be confused with the movie Van Helsing. It's yet another good vampire versus bad vampires show with the good guy even being named Alucard. But Seras Victoria and Hellsing himself sold me on the show, especially when they finally show Hellsing get down to business.
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I second Blue Gender, I've only seen parts of the first season, But I really enjoyed what I saw.

I really like Wolf's Rain, it's a post-apocalyptic story where the main protagonists are a group of wolves who blend in with human society as they search for paradise.

Ghost in the shell is pretty good, Cyberpunk story of a team of nine special agents.

I've been watching Bleach as well, I like the weapon fighting, but recently it feels like it's becoming more like DBZ sometimes (No, I do not like DBZ). I liked the earlier episodes that seemed more episodic than having an arc format.

On the subject of Death Note, I absolutely loved the ending. It seemed very fitting.

[ July 06, 2008, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
 
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, yes, is a definite must.

So I second that one.

As for the teardrops and so forth... come on. That's not cliche! That's just the convention of the medium, for crying out loud.

Now, by cliche, I thought you meant things like "loser boy ends up with harem of incredibly beautiful women" or "young girl gets cute item, plays dress up with superpowers, and travels around gathering items for a monster-of-the-week format." (Granted, CCS is good, being a CLAMP work, but the copycats are too common.)

Anyway, I'd also recommend Trigun. Early on, the show is instead "The Wacky Adventures of Vash and Friends" but as time goes on, things get dark, serious, and heart breaking.

Hmm. Serious anime all seems to be terribly depressing, ne?

Also: Which ending of Death Note was meant? The manga ending was truly lovely. The anime ending... not so much.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
There should just be a freestanding list of recommendations for Anime somewhere on this board that we can point people to. Seems like whenever someone asks for anime recommendations, regardless of the criteria offered, the same core group of animes is recommended, and then a few others are tossed on top depending on the specific criteria someone asks for. Seems like most people just toss out their favorites over and over again.

Oh, and I have to second Megabyte on the difference between cliche and medium. It's the format dude, it's not a cliche. Cliches are all the damned series that involve giant fighting robots. That's done to death, even though yes, you CAN find some great animes among those, so cliches aren't automatically bad. But saying you don't like the teardrops or what not is like saying you don't like the giant eyes they have. It's just the artistic style.

Besides, if not for the giant eyed main characters and the tiny black dotted throwaway characters, how would you know who to pay attention to?

(And as for Trigun, I agree there too, the early episodes ARE the wacky adventures of Vash and friends, but they're hilarious! It gets a lot more serious later on, and less funny, but I think what it trades off in comedy it gains in dramatic quality)
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Also: Which ending of Death Note was meant? The manga ending was truly lovely. The anime ending... not so much.

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quote:

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I really like Ghost in the Shell. Never finished the Second Season, but the first was fantastic. Along with both movies.

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quote:

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by Lyrhawn:But saying you don't like the teardrops or what not is like saying you don't like the giant eyes they have. It's just the artistic style.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Among my group of friends when it comes to anime we call what you consider an "artistic style" a cliche, which me and a friend of mine absolutely hate as they're utterly pointless, distract from the story, gimmicky, not funny once you turn 16 and taint what was until then a good anime. Me and a friend of mine agree that Full Metal Alchemist would have been better without it. Anime directors don't seem to understand what makes something funny for young adult audiences and how adding those "cliches" detracts from the experience in my humble opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Juxtapose:

quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Among my group of friends when it comes to anime we call what you consider an "artistic style" a cliche, which me and a friend of mine absolutely hate as they're utterly pointless, distract from the story, gimmicky, not funny once you turn 16 and taint what was until then a good anime. Me and a friend of mine agree that Full Metal Alchemist would have been better without it. Anime directors don't seem to understand what makes something funny for young adult audiences and how adding those "cliches" detracts from the experience in my humble opinion.

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A) Most shows that use those stylizations are intended for children or younger teenagers, not young adults.

B) In FMA, they serve to remind us that the characters fit into that age group. The childish comedy accentuates the tragedy that surrounds the character by reminding us that these events are happening to children.

C) You don't seem to understand that other cultures have different standards for humor than you do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
You would be right if you weren't wrong. The best way to describe anime's targeted age group is schizophrenic and further accentuates my point. Some animes even the serious ones obviously by "our" standards meant for an older audience will have what I consider to be a stupid "cliche".

Falling down in an exaggerated manner, huge tear rivers, faces changing from "normal" to absurd based on emotions, these are not artistic styles in my view they are gimmicky cliches designed to test how much we the audience are willing to tolerate slog, they are a cheap attempt at humor when the writers can't figure out some other way to be funny. I visibly cringe whenever a cliche is shown and my enjoyment level drops like a stone until the show stops distracting me from what is actually good about whatever I am currently watching.

Full Metal Alchemist was a good show it had a serious tone, a strong plot its story telling was well paced and top notch and I genuinely liked the characters and as an added bonus no 10 year old girls casting ultima without having to sacrifice her soul to Atropus.

But every time a "cliche" appeared my stomach churned in disgust. I want to be entertained and given thought provoking substance not forced to fast forward past the immaturity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
Neon Genesis Evangelion is probably the best anime EVER. Some might quibble at that title, but they will admit it's one of the best. It starts off like a cliche anime...but transforms over the episodes into one of the darkest and emotional shows out there, as the characters are stripped bare as the world comes to an end. The stakes cannot be higher...the fate of God and Man.

The show seriously changed anime forever. Many shows tried to copy it... very few succeeded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Blayne -

I don't know. It seems your complaint boils down to "why can't Japanese animation be more like American animation?"

Also I think you are confusing style with cliche.

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I would like to see you find a single american cartoon with the same animation style as Deathnote.
 

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Posted by Femellanovis (Member # 11642) on :
 
Have you seen Samurai Champloo? Also try Samurai Jack, it's not technically Anime, but the artistic style is very appealing. Finally, I would recommend the Aeon Flux shorts; not the actual series as the words mess things up in my opinion, plus there is something poetic in the way she dies in every single one.
 

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Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 
I nth Ghost in the Shell anything, Cowboy Bebop, and Wolf's Rain.

Full Metal Alchemist started out good, but once the producers reached the end of the manga plot, they made up the rest and thus after episode 23ish the series just goes downhill.

I saw End of Eva, haven't seen the series, so I'm probably not qualified to comment just yet.

Death Note is interesting, but like a lot of animes seems to suffer from "great mid-act climax in the middle of the series, then slowly collapses into poo by the end". Both FMA, Death Note, and a few others have done that so far.


Blayne, it's a visual shorthand to convey emotions, yes. So what? It's not in every anime, and obviously there's a large audience who don't mind the visual shorthand. You do, therefore don't watch animes with those visual shorthands, although it may be hard to completely avoid. It's part of a long history of the development of Japanese animation.

All the animes listed above (in my post), barring fullmetal alchemist and death note, do not use this visual shorthand because of the subject and content of the story and characters. They are appealing to an older demographic I suppose, or it's a style choice because the story is not light-hearted or whimsical.

I guess that's why you started this thread, to find animes that don't use this visual-emotional symbolism/shorthand. Great. You can go on about how poopy the shorthand/cliche is, but um...what's the point?

It's anime. And a very large percentage of anime is aimed at a young market. Having to be "forced past the immaturity"...maybe, but FMA is probably not the best example of "well crafted anime" to begin with. There's a lot of filler material, characters who make the weirdest decisions on a dime, and a cliche "it's a parallel universe" ending.

Death Note is only slightly better, but again suffers from some of the shortest character introductions in history, bad plotting, and "filler" episodes. (SPOILER WARNING)You really have to turn your brain down a notch to accept a story where the main protagonist(antagonist, depending on who's side you're on) is killed halfway through the series, and then two new characters who get 1.7 minutes of backstory, come on to the scene as the story continues haphazardly onward using whatever attention grabbing plot contrivances it can to keep you until the end.
(END SPOILER)

Both series, as well as others, appear to suffer from producers who prioritize money over craft. Nothing has to make that much sense, just a threads-width of sense, some story gimmicks to hook the viewer for the next episode. What will happen next???

But this is just because I'm older, and while I like rolling back the clock, the fact of the matter is a large portion of anime is meant for a young audience and is immature.

It is what it is.

[ July 07, 2008, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Earendil18 ]
 

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Posted by Femellanovis (Member # 11642) on :
 
If you want to see the best use of that visual shorthand check out Dragon Half. It's only two episodes, but those episodes are a magical break during a long night of "serious" Anime viewing (about 3 disks of Evangelion for example).

When I was a kid I HATED Anime, I wanted all cartoons to look like the western ones I was used to and I couldn't understand all the "weird" things the characters did. The more I watched, though the more I began to appreciate those "clinched" elements. Also learning about the short hand is a good way to start learning about the culture.
 

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Posted by Femellanovis (Member # 11642) on :
 
On, a side note when I looked back on a lot of the "American" cartoons from my childhood I realized that they were actually imported and westernized animes (a good example is the Transformers).
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Earendil18:
[Edited]

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I watched the 4 discs of Death Note available through Netflix a month or so ago. What you're referencing hadn't yet occurred at the end of the 4th disc. A spoiler warning would have been nice; might want to edit one in for other people who haven't seen the show. If you do, post mentioning it and I'll delete the spoiler from this post.

[Edited to remove spoiler]

[ July 08, 2008, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
 

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Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
 
Give it a try:
Baccano
Denno Coil
Beck (MCS)
Gun X Sword
Last Exile
Ōkiku Furikabutte

Code Geass is good for about 5 episodes, don't bother. Just Clamp doing what is does best, over and over and over again. Still bitter on how they screwed up Tsubasa.
 

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Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
 
Japanese television (animation, drama, et cetera) subscribes to its own set of cliches and tropes. It may seem fresh and new when compared to American television, but once you watch enough of it, you can begin to spot the cliches, character types, et cetera, from a mile away.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Clamp only did the character designs for Code Geass. And it is good for more than 5 episodes . But yeah, it isn't as good as it starts out, later in the series.
 

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Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by manji:
Japanese television (animation, drama, et cetera) subscribes to its own set of cliches and tropes. It may seem fresh and new when compared to American television, but once you watch enough of it, you can begin to spot the cliches, character types, et cetera, from a mile away.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Earendil18:
Noemon, I apologize for the no warning. My OP has been edited. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Juxtapose:
Blayne,
I have no objection to you voicing your opinions, though I disagree with them. I DO object to you mistaking cultural tropes that differ from your own for laziness and a lack of creativity.

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Except I do not
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I am confused how did this get bumped? I didn't post that today but like 3 weeks ago.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Weird.

Blayne, watch "Noein". Seriously. That and "Ergo Proxy".
 

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Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
 
With the exception of Akira, I've not realy seen much animé that really interested me. I have simliar feelings to Blayne, in that it all seems to be huge-mouthed silent screams and big eyed girls with big heads and little bodies.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, I shall look to being proved a philistine!
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I've seen Noein it was great.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Anyone know of any Anime's that are either

A) Borrow heavily from AD&D or 3.5 Ed D&D?

B) Similar to Avatar aside from Naruto and Bleach.
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
Try "Record of the Lodoss War". I don't know if it borrows specifically from those versions, but it reminded me of D&D quite a bit.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Neither Naruto nor Bleach is particularly similar to Avatar. Perhaps Dragonball Z? Or any anime based on the Journey to the West. And I'm not aware of any anime borrowing heavily from D&D, but there are some that have very dungeon-crawling feels to them. For one on the darker side of things, have you seen Berserk? On the lighter side, you might like Slayers (Slayers Revolution, the latest, stands reasonably well on its own).
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Oh, and check out Rurouni Kenshin if you haven't yet. It is a classic shonen series, so might fit in with your like for Naruto and Bleach.
 

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Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
 
I don't know. If you can get past the cliche's in Kenshin, you will realize it is an incredible gem, but it definitely has some of the standards of japanese animation.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fugu13:
Neither Naruto nor Bleach is particularly similar to Avatar. Perhaps Dragonball Z? Or any anime based on the Journey to the West. And I'm not aware of any anime borrowing heavily from D&D, but there are some that have very dungeon-crawling feels to them. For one on the darker side of things, have you seen Berserk? On the lighter side, you might like Slayers (Slayers Revolution, the latest, stands reasonably well on its own).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I like G Gundam. It's less about war than it is about one on one tournament style combat, but it also gets a little wacky with the subplot stuff.

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I like G Gundam, too, but more because it cracks me up than for any other reason.
"MASTER ASIA!!!" "DOMON!!!" "RAIN!!" "KYOJI!!!"
Lots of shouting going on.
Let's not forget the Statue of Liberty Cannon, Hurricane (aka Windmill for my brother and I) Gundam, or Mermaid Gundam.

Besides Cowboy Bebop, which everyone should experience, I'd say Last Exile is a MUST. You've got some great suggestions up there, so I'll first, second, third or whatever the following:
Trigun
Ghost In The Shell, both seasons
Full Metal Alchemist
Paranoia Agent
Blood
Samurai 7
Outlaw Star
RahXephon
s-CRY-ed
Gundam 08th MS Team (short one, more realistic, as much as giant robots can be)
Naturo
 

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Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
 
Completely forgot about Kino's Journey! It doesn't look like much (edit -->) at first glance, but it packs an ethical punch.

That as well as Paranoia Agent and Lain (though that one's been around so long now, it seems) are good if you're looking for series that don't require a huge time commitment. These two are 13 ep series while I think Kino is even shorter.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Lain... ahh.. yes. A good one to mess with your mind. Paranoia Agent is a favy. I agree, Last Exile is a must as well.

You've seen Evangelion right?
Gunslinger Girls
Kiddy Grade
ZegaPain
Big O
Metropolis
Blue Sub 6
Full Metal Panic
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
seen Lain, nightmares for a week, seen Kino's Journey twas fun figuring her out as True Neutral, Last Exile was fun, seen scryed, seen FMA, and naruto.

Will take a look at FMP again.
 

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Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
I agree, Last Exile is a must as well.
....
You've seen Evangelion right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Will take a look at FMP again.

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It's hard trying to come up with non-cliched AND good series. I'm sure there are some out there that fall in one or the other categories, but to hit both... Anyway, my brother really liked FMP. Of course, he's in the military and so could relate to the humor more.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I tried watching it but got distracted by something and hadn't been able to finish it.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
You seriously need to finish.
The ending is what is worth the journey.
Seriously fraked up.
SERIOUSLY.

I would love to have Arch-Angel Gabriel as my lover.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
There better not be yoai in it.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
almost done watching Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi and Azumanga Daioh, I really really really liked Suzumiya, it had the right style of animation I liked, a nice gimmick, and the sort of high school group of friends stories Im addicted to.

Daioh... Eh, it has its funny moments, I really dont like the style, and it REALLY ticked me off when in a scene where someone from Canada or States of England bumped into the Gym teacher rather then actually conversing in english they just had Charliebrown-speak.

I'm pissed.

But it is moderately funny enough ill keep plodding through.


Now I think Ill watch Negima next, Im really interested in some Magic A is Magic A Vance styled magic using anime or D&D styled, anyone have suggestions for that?

**Just in, I saw the most awesome "Enemy Gate is Down" moment in Anime when the SOS Brigade fought a virtual space battle against the Computer club, just pure win.
 

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Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
 
detective conan
Doraemon
crayonshinchan
sayonara zetsubo sensei

all fun all very popular and easy to get...except maybe zetsubo

Also, read manga. is betterer
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
manga is betterer for...? Better != Radically different.
 

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Posted by Mocke (Member # 11963) on :
 
just better. More recently, anime'd mangas have been abused by pointless and stupid side-stories. Is better to read the manga to get the story.
Or the anime takes what was written in a radically different direction (as i think you are mentioning). This isn't always bad, but Manga gives a fuller story.
 

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Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
So far I read the Manga for naruto and bleach because either the anime version went off on another dumb non canon side arc filler or is simply plain taking too long.

Im interesting in reading Code Geass's manga as it doesnt have the Knightmare frames whichs makes me think bwha!? Then how the heck did Britannia succeed in invading Japan which was implied to be Great Power in its own right because of having Sakurite.
 

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Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
 
I used to be so obsessed with anime...now every time I try to get into a new one, my eyes catch a glimpse of my Berserk manga and I remember what real art is.


*reads*
 

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