Hi I'm doing a "themes" study on the "Ender" and "Shadow" series books and was wondering if any of you guys could help me with some questions I have? I'm focusing more on the books after "Ender's Game" e.g Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind. 1. What are some recurring themes in the "Ender" and "Shadow"series? 2. What symbols and Motifs does OSC use to portray these themes? 3. Why does he use these symbols and Motifs?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
That reads like homework you need to do yourself.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
You probably won't find many people here willing to answer those general questions. One of the "rules" we have adopted is to not do homework for each other, but we can help. You may want to start by showing us you have made some effort. Try: "Would you consider [possible theme] a good theme of EG?" You explain your reasons for your theme choice and we can discuss them with you.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I know that I'd love to talk about this if you gave us something to discuss.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Any help would be greatly appreciated
What do I get for doing your homework? Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Valentine014: You probably won't find many people here willing to answer those general questions. One of the "rules" we have adopted is to not do homework for each other, but we can help. You may want to start by showing us you have made some effort. Try: "Would you consider [possible theme] a good theme of EG?" You explain your reasons for your theme choice and we can discuss them with you.
You can tell by the language that this is probably someone who already knows that, and still wants us to do his HW for him.
I'll add for the benefit of the OP that most universities and high schools would consider this type of request to be a violation of their policies on academic integrity. It certainly is not something you would ever want your assessors, at any institution, to know about.
In regards to this, I would like to suggest that perhaps this "rule" as Val puts it, should be adopted into the Hatrack terms and conditions- along with a stipulation that discourages posters from seeking academic help when it may be in violation of their school's policies, or when it may encourage plagiarism.
Any thoughts PJ? For all I know, that's already official.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I would also like the rules for a "good" Dobie to be inserted in the terms of service, along with the rules for becoming "real", an official recognition of the period of 2001 - 2003 as the Golden Age, and an exhaustive list of what and is not considered pornographic.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Things that ARE pornographic: ... 36. This list. ...
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Locke, any themes you come up with yourself will be, I guarantee you, just as good as those suggested by Hatrackians. You may just have to think a little harder.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
One theme that no one seems to talk about in Ender's Game is the interplay of the various armies in the context of their names' relationship to Egyptian and Chinese mythology. You would certainly have a novel paper if you focused on that.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
If you look on Hatrack itself then you'll find an area dedicated to research on OSC books.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Any bets that Locke3000 will never post here again?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
1. What are some recurring themes in the "Ender" and "Shadow"series?
Friends don't let friends commit genocide.
Children are brilliant, while adults are just around to follow their orders.
Viruses are people too.
Adversaries (especially grade school bullies) are best dealt with by killing them in a brutal surprise attacks.
Near omniscient computer viruses are handy to have around in a pinch.
2. What symbols and Motifs does OSC use to portray these themes?
The most commonly used symbols, in my opinion, are those pulled from the latin alphabet. In fact, I'd say these various symbols are used thousands of times during the novels. Specifically, he uses a lot of 'e' symbols.
3. Why does he use these symbols and Motifs?
Because his publishers told him to do so, I'd imagine.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Xavier, perhaps you missed this, we Hatrackers have standards to uphold and one of those standards is to not do other people's homework, no matter how good of an analysis of EG you can do.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Xavier!
Posted by Trent Destian (Member # 11653) on :
Valentine I think you misunderstood Xavier's post. There's no substance there, at least in terms of a school paper. I think X was just having a lark.
Or perhaps I in turn have misunderstood your post and you already know this.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It's likely. Val and X are married. Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Shenanigans! Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You forgot to mention his motif on the word "the" and its importance. If you were to do a line by line, word by word count of all the words Mr. Card uses, you will discover that his works contain the word "the" a shockingly large number of times.
Now I won't do your homework, but a simple spread sheet, listing each word and the number of times its used, will be conclusive evidence.
Other words used frequently--"of" "a" and "Bean".
Surprisingly infrequent are the uses of the words "Genocide" "interstellar" and "avocado".
What you make from these statistics is up to you.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I want to know where Dagonee's quote came from . . .
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
You forgot the accusations of his having anti Mormon rhetoric in his books, particularly in the Alvin Maker series.
And that interview where he suggested that the whole Latter-Day Saints phrase was part of a plot to take over the world.
I'm just saying, no paper on OSC would be complete without those facts.
PS: we can be snarky at times...but if you come back with a more serious request...perhaps part of an actual paper for use to critique...and give suggestions on, people will be far more willing to help you.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I would also like the rules for a "good" Dobie to be inserted in the terms of service, along with the rules for becoming "real", an official recognition of the period of 2001 - 2003 as the Golden Age, and an exhaustive list of what and is not considered pornographic.
I think appropriate use of irony and satire should be accounted for in the TOS as well.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: One theme that no one seems to talk about in Ender's Game is the interplay of the various armies in the context of their names' relationship to Egyptian and Chinese mythology. You would certainly have a novel paper if you focused on that.
I wrote my dissertation on this subject. Biter.
Posted by Locke3000 (Member # 11713) on :
Sorry guys, didn't know the "no doing other peoples homework rule". I thought you guys would be able to provide some feedback. The themes I've come up with so far: Accept fellow man no matter what their differences, Fear of the unknown, negotiation not conflict, and people trying to play god. The symbols and/or motifs so far are: Ender as a Jesus figure (accepts people for what they could be e.g Piggies aren't dangerous as previously thought. He heals and brings people together rather than pushing them apart e.g Novinha's family) (in shadow series) Achilles is a symbol for the devil e.g he manipulates people, betrays them, turns them against each other and uses them for his own devices
I would assume Mr Card uses these themes and/or motifs because (is he?) a devout christian. I will hunt some more around the web to see if I can find any others. Is this good so far?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I would assume Mr Card uses these themes and/or motifs because (is he?) a devout christian.
There are some themes and motifs that Card uses because he is a devout Mormon; there are others he uses for other reasons. However, I wouldn't say that any of the ones you just mentioned are among them. Achilles isn't a symbol for the devil; he is a devilish antagonist. The conflict between Bean and Achilles is not meant to represent a battle between Jesus and Satan.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Locke3k:
quote:The themes I've come up with so far: Accept fellow man no matter what their differences, Fear of the unknown, negotiation not conflict, and people trying to play god.
Why do you think those are themes in Card's work?
If you're going to try to tie Card's religion into his writing, then you need to have an understanding of both literary devices and Mormonism.
How much do you know about Mormonism and its differences with traditional Christianity? (For example, Mormons don't believe in creation ex nullo; we believe in the existence of the soul prior to God's creation-- both of which are alluded to in Xenocide.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I thought you guys would be able to provide some feedback.
As you can see, there are people here able and willing to provide feedback. However, you gave us nothing to give feedback on in your first post. Now that you've said something, feedback can occur.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
By the way, it's creation ex nihilo, not nullo. Also, be careful researching it, because creation ex nihilo is often discussed in the context of transducianism, which holds generally that human souls are derived from the souls of the parents, with only the first human soul being created ex nihilo. This is not the belief that Scott referenced above, so be vigilant in your research.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
My Italian is corrupting my latin.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Isn't that pretty much how we lost Latin in the first place?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think it's behind the couch.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*snort*
Ahhh -- I can always count on Hatcrack for a good Friday night laugh.
This is especially important as I don't have TV.
Thanks, folks, for providing my Friday night entertainment. *beatific smiles all around*
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Who in the world is doing homework at the beginning of August??? That's SO wrong!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Locke3000: Sorry guys, didn't know the "no doing other peoples homework rule". I thought you guys would be able to provide some feedback.
More properly what you were requesting was not "feedback," but "feed," which is what we told you we don't do. You write the paper, maybe someone will read it and then you get "feedback."
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Locke3000: I would assume Mr Card uses these themes and/or motifs because (is he?) a devout christian.
That is a sweeping generalization that will, in virtually any imaginable case dealing with material of this magnitude, get you not only unclear results, but wrongheaded ones. Forget that he's a Christian and deal with his books on their own terms. If you could boil things down to what church people belonged to, we wouldn't need to write books- the interesting parts are the ones that are unique to the individual writer, or shared for a specific purpose.
quote: I will hunt some more around the web to see if I can find any others.
Once again, please don't a) do this, or b) share themes you've gathered around the internet for us to discuss. We've done a fair bit (or a massive amount) of that already, and it's all there for you to see on the other side of the board. And again, this is your project, and looking up a thesis statement or a thematic "cheat sheet" on the internet, intending to use that work as the basis for your own, even if it's from somewhere like sparksnotes, is still unethical and academically dishonest.
Please, for the sake of my sanity, inform this board when and if you are using material which is not your own, and I will then cease in assisting you, just as many others may. Again, do your own homework.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
How much do you know about Mormonism and its differences with traditional Christianity? (For example, Mormons don't believe in creation ex nullo; we believe in the existence of the soul prior to God's creation-- both of which are alluded to in Xenocide.)
Oh really? I didn't know that. What parts of the physics of Xenocide and Children of the Mind do you think are informed by the Mormon worldview? I suppose I tend to think less, hmmm linearly (?) than you do on questions such as this- for instance, I would look for the motivation to create this plot device in the context of the story, rather than supposing that Card draws directly on his religious values to incorporate it, but that could easily be argued against.
My feeling would be though, that even a C.S. Lewis, not to mention an OSC, sees the needs of the narrative and structure/function of the story outside of any attempts to allegorize institutional beliefs. For instance, I am constantly uneasy with all the focus on the tales of Narnia as "Christian Allegory," because though they are undeniably so, there had to be a reason *more* than this to inspire C.S. Lewis to write them. If not, they're just books with the names changed, right? I would think that by using those stories or alluding to them, or as with OSC, incorporating a Mormonish worldview into the mechanics of his novel would be used to flesh out some greater point, beyond just showing what Mormons believe.
Coming to the end of this, I realize that my point is fairly obvious... and maybe I'm just asking if its even important.
Posted by Locke3000 (Member # 11713) on :
I shall just note that all work up to this stage has been my own. Also it just a high school research project and not a "thesis". Any help or ideas raised in discussion from you guys must be fully cited and linked back to this website.
There are many, many reasons OSC uses the symbols and themes he uses in these particular books. Possibly he is trying to make a general statement about society. Like how much we now depend on the web for everything now. Information, communication. Possibly also the fact that although there are plenty of good people out there e.g Ender Wiggin there are plenty of people who are corrupt self preserving monsters who just want to get into a position of power and keep it that way e.g 100 world leaders who altered the genes of Qing Jao's people. He could be trying to say unless good people who can see both sides of a situation and make a decision based on their even sightings get into a position of power then we're doomed for things like that to happen. Mr Card may also have just written the books and used these characters. Maybe nothing was implied from his books. Maybe they're just amazing books. However my english teacher won't accept that as an answer.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
The aiua as described in Xenocide coincide with some Mormons' thinking about intelligence before creation.
(The same thing is done in Alvin Journeyman when Al re-makes Arthur.)
quote:even a C.S. Lewis, not to mention an OSC, sees the needs of the narrative and structure/function of the story outside of any attempts to allegorize institutional beliefs.
Yes-- he isn't proselyting.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think comparing Ender or Bean to Christ and Achilles to Satan will lead you down the path of lousy papers. A more useful question would be to ask yourself, "If Ender and Bean are seen as ultimately good, and Achilles and various people (like the Starways Congress in later books) are seen as mostly bad, how and why are they categorized that way." There is more than enough room to write dozens of papers on the definition of good and evil in these books. Depending on the length of the paper required, a good place to start may be to make a list of major characters/entities and write down actions of theirs that the author either justifies/excuses or condemns.
An example from later books (spoiler included) would be to compare the martyrdom of Quim with the life of service led by Quing-Jao after the spread of the cure. Both gave their lives for their gods, both were true people of faith, but one is viewed in a far more positive light. Why? And how does the author show approval or disapproval?
Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
quote:Also it just a high school research project and not a "thesis"
I remember back when I used to think thesis was only a mammoth paper doctoral students in literature did.
A thesis statement is the concise encapsulation of the argument you will make in the paper.
the five paragraph essay's you're dutifully trained to write for high school (and immediately told to never write in college, once you get there) contain thesis statements too. though they are often unfocused, watered down and not especially helpful to the writer or the reader/grader.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:the five paragraph essay's you're dutifully trained to write for high school (and immediately told to never write in college, once you get there) contain thesis statements too.
Depends on the teacher and the circumstances. I'm an English major, and I find the 5-paragraph structure works extremely well for in-class essays on midterm or final exams. It's also very easy - take the topic, formulate a thesis, find three examples from the text to back up your thesis, write an introduction, 3 body paragraphs on your textual evidence, and a conclusion. Boom! Instant A.
Seriously, I use five paragraph essays in every midterm and final and I haven't made less than an A yet.
Now, term papers and research papers - that's a different ball game. Naturally the five paragraph essay won't work there.
Posted by Locke3000 (Member # 11713) on :
If Orson Scott Card is using the symbols as "christian" symbols, would it be fair to assume that Jane is God? The bible says the spirit of God is within us all. It would make sense for Jane to be God because she can do otherworldly things. E.g Transport the "box" in and out of the "outside space" The spirit of Jane is the computers and networks of the hundred worlds. Most people would have computers. Therefore the spirit of "God" is within us all. Maybe Ender isn't a Jesus figure, but maybe a "disciple like" figure, for Jane reveals herself to Ender before anyone else.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think insofar as there's any religious allegory happening at all, Jane could very well said to be a God. But I think that's meant in a very literal way: Jane is a god, in that she is capable of holding in her mind a pattern that is adopted by matter.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Five paragraph,my english teacher doesnt accept anything under 11 from me.
why does she make me work for my A. (though she isnt my english teacher anymore)
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
awwwwwwww I wish my teachers let me do studies on the EG books or the shadow series.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Locke3000: If Orson Scott Card is using the symbols as "christian" symbols, would it be fair to assume that Jane is God? The bible says the spirit of God is within us all. It would make sense for Jane to be God because she can do otherworldly things. E.g Transport the "box" in and out of the "outside space" The spirit of Jane is the computers and networks of the hundred worlds. Most people would have computers. Therefore the spirit of "God" is within us all. Maybe Ender isn't a Jesus figure, but maybe a "disciple like" figure, for Jane reveals herself to Ender before anyone else.
Again, you do what I did when I was 17, wanting to make every literary device into a neatly fitting and cute allegory that reveals... well actually not very much other than my ability to recognize common themes.
Go down this path, and you'll be saying that the Valentine-Peter-Ender trio are the holy trinity and that the Descoladores are the gentiles and that Peter is also Saint Peter and that the piggies are the 12 tribes of Israel, etc etc. You can sandwich two images together easily enough, but you can't "borrow" significance from simply saying that Ender is a "disciple like" figure. The disciples are "disciple like" too, but what about them is ultimately revealing of human nature? What do each of the disciples mean or accomplish, or come to symbolize? What bearing do their actions have, in the context of the bible, on our view of them as human beings- what do they reveal about our own nature?
You talk about that with Ender, and you don't need to say that he's a "disciple like figure," because you can do one better and actually say what he is, not just what he is like.
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Xavier!
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