Next week I start a lesson on Judaism followed by a week on the history of Islam and Islamic empires. Throughout the year I teach about Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity.
I know the question from my students is coming. What religion am I?
Last year I told my students that I do not discuss my religion or politics, because I want them to think for themselves.
Is this the right stance to take? Should I tell them I am an atheist if they ask? Should I bring up my Jewish mother and Catholic father?
They are 7th graders.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I've seen both approaches work. My philosophy teacher would mention exposure he'd had to many different religions, but he would politely decline to state what religion he was personally. I think he helped that we didn't try to color what he said by what we thought his religion would lead him to believe.
I also had a constitutional law professor who shared my religion, and it didn't hinder the classes ability in the least to discuss all sides of an issue. If anything when he told us to not try and take just his side, it was alittle easier to guess what that side might be based on his religion.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wouldn't tell them. Maybe at the end, but not at the beginning. It will color everything they hear from you.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I wouldn't tell them. Maybe at the end, but not at the beginning. It will color everything they hear from you.
I'm leaning that way for that reason. But it is very hard not to make connections with my own life, because I almost always do.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I'm very hesitant to talk about my religion with students. I don't hide it from them, but I think there are certain ethical responsibilities you have as a teacher. As a teacher, you have a position of authority and I think it would be unethical to use that authority to influence students religious interests and beliefs -- even if its unintentional. Students might perceive that it could improve their grades or the recommendations you might right or just your opinion of them if they show they share or appear to share you religious biases or they might simply give more credence to your beliefs because they respect you as a teacher. Its not a clear cut line and maybe I'm too hesitant to talk religion with students. Still I think there are ethical reasons to avoid discussing your personal religious beliefs with your students.
Perhaps you could make a game out of it with the students. Write down a synopsis of your religious background and beliefs and seal it in an envelope. Show the students the sealed envelope and tell them "At the end of the semester we'll open this envelope, anyone who is interested can try to guess what I've written." You could then have a prize for the person who comes closest.
It might end up being an interesting experiment on how well you are able to conceal your biases while teaching this subject.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:As a teacher, you have a position of authority and I think it would be unethical to use that authority to influence students religious interests and beliefs -- even if its unintentional.
This is an interesting thought - why do you think this is unethical?
I'd be inclined to think that, except perhaps in government-sponsored public schools (where freedom of religion legal issues come into play), teachers have an ethical responsibility to serve as role models to students. Part of that means modeling the difference between right and wrong, which inherently touches on religion, especially when religions are being studied. For instance, a teacher that teaches students to respect different religions is going to have a very different influence than a teacher that techers students that foreign religions are bizarre and absurd.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I would tell them that's not their business. Americans are way too hung up on the religions of their neighbours anyway; set a good example and teach some manners.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'd need a diagram to explain all the ways that post was both wrong and rude.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I'd be tempted to tell them that you don't know, and you do the lesson every year in order to hopefully find out, but you never get any answers and are starting to spiral into a depression... that might get them to not ask you any more personal questions.
Edit: Just to be clear, this post is a parody of KOM's comment.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:I'd be inclined to think that, except perhaps in government-sponsored public schools (where freedom of religion legal issues come into play), teachers have an ethical responsibility to serve as role models to students. Part of that means modeling the difference between right and wrong, which inherently touches on religion, especially when religions are being studied. For instance, a teacher that teaches students to respect different religions is going to have a very different influence than a teacher that techers students that foreign religions are bizarre and absurd.
I'm confused by your post. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the example that you ended with, but a teacher is at least marginally MORE likely to disparage other religions, even if only by implication, if he openly espouses his own, than he would be if he kept his own religion private. In other words, I can't see how talking about his own religion is likely to help a teacher with the goal of teaching students to respect other religions.
I also think that a teacher's ethical responsibility is to model ethical responsibility, not right & wrong as defined by any particular religion.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I might note that the goal of the class may influence the approach you take.
If the goal of the class is indeed to teach students to "respect" other religions, then thats a very different goal and may entail a different approach than if the goal of the class is merely to teach the historical background of other religions and what they believe.
In other words, the idea that religions (other or not) should be respected is in and of itself a judgement about right and wrong as defined by particular religions.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:I'm confused by your post. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the example that you ended with, but a teacher is at least marginally MORE likely to disparage other religions, even if only by implication, if he openly espouses his own, than he would be if he kept his own religion private. In other words, I can't see how talking about his own religion is likely to help a teacher with the goal of teaching students to respect other religions.
My example was intended to illustrate that in either case, the teacher is influencing their students' religious beliefs.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'd need a diagram to explain all the ways that post was both wrong and rude.
Then I suggest you get drawing. Your habit of crying "Wrong! Wrong!" without stating how is seriously annoying. Put up or shut up.
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
I just ignore the hall monitor...she has no authority here.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
1. It's a class on religion. Religion is a natural topic. Asking about religion in a class about religion is not rude. Saying that it is is wrong. Mistake number one.
2. Interested in not the same thing as "hung up." "Hung up" is pejorative phrase that fails to account for the varied reasons and levels of interest that exist. So, it's both wrong and rude. Mistakes number 2 and 3.
3. It's a classroom dedicated to exploring a topic. Encouraging students to keep silent rather than to ask questions is the antithesis of a liberal arts education and goes completely against the point of education, so far against the point that I can only assume that you have abandoned educational ideals due to your zealousness in tamping any religious inquiry. Both wrong and rude (to the students - why should they not ask questions?) again. Mistakes 4 and 5.
4. Manners is a broad topic that includes both the kinds of questions and the way they are asked. Just as it is possible to discuss political in a political science class politely, it is possible for people to discuss religion in a religious studies class politely. Mistake number 6.
I believe that YOU don't believe it is possible to discuss religion politely, but you are wrong to extrapolate your personal failures to the population in general.
-----
I think it is better to not tell them, for all the reasons non-KoM people have said, but all of KoM's reasons were wrong.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Stephan, if you explain that you are Atheist, the next question will be "why?". You will then find yourself in a position of having to defend Atheism. There is little between defending one's beliefs and espousing those beliefs to others. I would find that as inappropriate as a teacher spending class time on an evangelical recruitment spree.
The class is not there to convert them to any one religion, or to no religion. That is obvious. Stating a preference can be seen as promoting a choice, and that is not what this particular class is about.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Stephan, if you explain that you are Atheist, the next question will be "why?". You will then find yourself in a position of having to defend Atheism. There is little between defending one's beliefs and espousing those beliefs to others. I would find that as inappropriate as a teacher spending class time on an evangelical recruitment spree.
This is why I believe a teacher should not discuss their personal religious beliefs in a classroom setting. By stating one's religious affiliation, one is implicitly stating their position on several matters ranging from who is and isn't going to spend an eternity in fiery torment to who may or may not again see their dead siblings or parents in the next life.
[ September 30, 2008, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
You should tell them your religion will be written on the board at the end of the last day of class. Leave without speaking a word immediately at the end of that day. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
If you're not going to tell them your religion, I wouldn't tell them -- not on the first or last day. If you tell them on the last day of class, then someone is going to tell the students in your next class. If you tell them, you may as well be up front about it, although I lean towards not telling them for reasons already stated.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
What I did when I taught World Religions was tell the students that, for arguments sake, I would always take the other side. For the most part then, being an atheist like I am was easy because most of the students were religious and so taking the other side meant that I would argue my beliefs most of the time. I think you are correct to worry about coloring their perception of religion because it is so difficult to appear unbiased with such a controversial and sometimes emotional topic, and so, I think not telling them is the best path to take.
ETA: I told them on the last day about my own religious beliefs, and one my students called me and asked if he could try to proselytize me.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Maybe you should just wait until *if* the students bring the issue up.
In my experience in grade school, especially in grade 7, I can't remember a single teacher that the I knew the religion of nor did I hear anyone ask about it, even when we were covering religion in social studies class or history.
Maybe you can just wait until it really becomes an issue.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Maybe you should just wait until *if* the students bring the issue up.
In my experience in grade school, especially in grade 7, I can't remember a single teacher that the I knew the religion of nor did I hear anyone ask about it, even when we were covering religion in social studies class or history.
Maybe you can just wait until it really becomes an issue.
That's a great idea - you don't know they are going to ask so you should be as unprepared as possible to answer if they do. The possible waste of effort in figuring out the right thing to do ahead of time isn't worth the risk - you're better off just winging it later and hoping for the best...
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I don't know, I don't think saying that your mom was one thing (Jewish), and your dad another (Catholic) and you not very religious is a very big deal. Especially because there are plenty of Christmas/Easter churchgoers who DO believe in God.
As a seventh grader, I would be pretty curious about your family combining two different religious traditions, whether there was friction between sides of the family, and how that reflects itself in your own beliefs. Was "no" religion a compromise your parents decided on? I think it's almost easier to mention your family because of the two different religions. You aren't converting anyone, in fact, you are already on at least two sides, and wouldn't be a teacher of history and religion if you didn't find the subject interesting.
My ninth grade history teacher. who was (I think) the son of Chinese immigrants, who married a Catholic-Italian woman with whom he attended the College of the Holy Cross. Perhaps we were told a bit too much about his personal life. We knew he was an agnostic, but had nothing but respect for the Holy Cross Jesuits, as they were known for making students question everything, even Catholicism. He recommended HC to everyone. This being nearly 8 years ago, I don't remember exactly what he said, but he made some comment about his wife's family being confused by the Chinese concept of ancestor worship, and contrasted it with praying to Saints, which he found just as weird. Anyway, the point I took home was that the concept of ancestor worship, which I had never heard of outside of Mulan, was not so foreign. In fact, his class was my only exposure to world religions, and what I got out of WAS that they weren't so foreign.
Now I have no idea whether your school is tolerant, diverse or filled with the deeply religious, but mentioning that your parents had two different religions is always useful to horny little squirts and their 48 hour relationships.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
My seventh grade World History teacher was a Muslim, my seventh grade math teacher was an Atheist, my seventh grade French teacher was a Catholic by birth, my seventh grade English teacher was a Christian, and my seventh grade science teacher was a Jew. I went to a public school.
Of those, only my World History and French teachers made a point about it, and the others let it slip indirectly in response to student questioning. Though the attitude among those that let it slip was generally "I'm a public school teacher, I'm not here to convert you to my religion."
Maybe you didn't ask the right questions, Mucus.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by just_me:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Maybe you should just wait until *if* the students bring the issue up.
In my experience in grade school, especially in grade 7, I can't remember a single teacher that the I knew the religion of nor did I hear anyone ask about it, even when we were covering religion in social studies class or history.
Maybe you can just wait until it really becomes an issue.
That's a great idea - you don't know they are going to ask so you should be as unprepared as possible to answer if they do. The possible waste of effort in figuring out the right thing to do ahead of time isn't worth the risk - you're better off just winging it later and hoping for the best...
Mucus never said anything about not preparing for the question. He just said to wait until a student asks the question.
EDIT: Though his post is actually ambiguous. I could be wrong.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I wouldn't tell them. Maybe at the end, but not at the beginning. It will color everything they hear from you.
Just be aware that this approach won't work in the long run unless you're not planning on teaching the course again at the same school. Kids talk. If you tell them at the end the next group you teach will come in already knowing.
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:As a teacher, you have a position of authority and I think it would be unethical to use that authority to influence students religious interests and beliefs -- even if its unintentional.
This is an interesting thought - why do you think this is unethical?
I'd be inclined to think that, except perhaps in government-sponsored public schools (where freedom of religion legal issues come into play), teachers have an ethical responsibility to serve as role models to students.
There's a famous Canadian case that I studied once in high school and then again in university. A guy named James Keegstra was a public high school teacher cira 1984. He was also an outspoken anti-Semite. He taught that Jews are evil and the Holocaust didn't actually happen. He also expected students to reproduce these ideas on tests.
Long story short: he was convicted of hate speech and lost his teaching credentials.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Speech like that isn't illegal in the United States. There's no such thing as "hate speech."
Although he'd almost surely still lose his teaching credentials.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I wasn't a law major or anything, but one fundamental difference that I've learned between jurisprudence in the States and here in Canada is that Canadian law makers are much more willing to make and enforce laws that Americans would call violations of personal rights in order to protect society as a whole. That being said, the ruling against Keegstra was first overturned on appeal as a violation of his personal rights, and then reinstated by the Supreme Court on the basis that his exercising of those personal rights was harmful to society.
Americans tend to see this sort of thing as the first step towards fascism. Canadians tend to trust the government to know where to draw the line. At least, that's my totally unbiased view. Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
In regards to not worrying about it until it comes up, well it already has. I still stick to my response, I do not discuss me personal politics or religion.
It will be hard not to bring up my familiarity with Judaism when I teach it in two weeks. I am constantly trying to connect what I teach to either my life or theirs. Especially when I address the holocaust at the end of the year, having my grandfather escaping Germany and losing his parents in the process.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Speech like that isn't illegal in the United States. There's no such thing as "hate speech."
Although he'd almost surely still lose his teaching credentials.
That pretty much sums it up. I could get up tomorrow in front of my class and use every derogatory term I can think of. I would lose my job, but not go to jail.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The first step towards fascism isn't quite the right characterization; it isn't a slippery slope argument, but that such restriction is actively wrong in its own right.
And the argument that forbidding such cases of speech actively betters society is extraordinarily flimsy. I'd love to see examples of any particular harm to society beyond a few people being rather annoyed that would have been prevented in the US if someone had been prosecuted for speech crimes, and I can point to numerous instances over the course of history where speech laws have been used in attempts to shut down political and religious speech.
And, given cases like Maher Arar, I think the general notion of muzzling gov't restrictions as much as possible is pretty well supported.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:If you're not going to tell them your religion, I wouldn't tell them -- not on the first or last day. If you tell them on the last day of class, then someone is going to tell the students in your next class. If you tell them, you may as well be up front about it, although I lean towards not telling them for reasons already stated.
I agree with this. And I wouldn't tell them I was an atheist. I've had some success in the past when people demand to know my religion is to respond with a question: "Why must I have a religion at all?"
This could imply atheism, but it can also imply an unwillingness to adhere to a particular ideology, or a dislike for organized religion. In any case, answering with a question generally stimulates thought.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I disagree, teaching the difference of right and wrong does not require to touch upon religion at all but can be self consistently explained entirely through ethical theory.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I agree that you should not say what religion or lack of religion you are. Worst case, they dismiss what you say because of your religion.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: In regards to not worrying about it until it comes up, well it already has. I still stick to my response, I do not discuss me personal politics or religion. ...
And I happen to think thats sufficient.
As an explanation, honestly (and this is for Just_me), I'm not trying to be provocative here, but it really just didn't come up in my area.
C3PO: Its true. I didn't ask questions about my teacher's religions. But that would also be true of the other people in my class, at least during class time. Maybe its a Canadian thing, maybe its even an Ontario thing, but in class we generally didn't ask personal questions about religion. I'm not saying thats a good or bad thing, but I can't remember even having to defend my choice of faith (or lack thereof) even to schoolmates in grade school, beyond simple curiosity.
*shrug*
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: It will be hard not to bring up my familiarity with Judaism when I teach it in two weeks. I am constantly trying to connect what I teach to either my life or theirs. Especially when I address the holocaust at the end of the year, having my grandfather escaping Germany and losing his parents in the process.
I agree with the general consensus to not share your personal belief system, but this sounds like an experience worth sharing. I don't see why you couldn't talk about your Jewish grandfather. If questions get asked, you can say that you have family within several religious traditions.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:In regards to not worrying about it until it comes up, well it already has. I still stick to my response, I do not discuss me personal politics or religion.
It will be hard not to bring up my familiarity with Judaism when I teach it in two weeks. I am constantly trying to connect what I teach to either my life or theirs. Especially when I address the holocaust at the end of the year, having my grandfather escaping Germany and losing his parents in the process.
Being familiar with religions is a good thing, though, since you are teaching about religions. I don't think revealing that you have relatives who are Jewish is quite the same as saying which religion you personally believe in.
quote:I disagree, teaching the difference of right and wrong does not require to touch upon religion at all but can be self consistently explained entirely through ethical theory.
In doing so, you are necessarily touching on religion. For instance, if you come up with an ethical theory that explains right and wrong entirely without referring to God, you contradict all those religions that say one cannot understand right and wrong without first accepting God.
Ethics and religion are directly tied together, because right and wrong is always one of the primary concerns of religion. So as a society we have a choice: we can either teach children to be good people and accept that in doing so we may influence their religious views and values, or we can take character education out of schools and leave the teaching of right and wrong entirely to families. As of right now, our compromise solution to this tends to be that our schools teach a broad version of right and wrong that doesn't refer to religion directly but also doesn't contradict the majority of religious views, while allowing the minority of parents on the extremes to homeschool or attend private schools if they feel their child needs religion to be a bigger part of their school life.
But that is all a tangent from the main thread topic.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:In my experience in grade school, especially in grade 7, I can't remember a single teacher that the I knew the religion of nor did I hear anyone ask about it, even when we were covering religion in social studies class or history.
That is so not the case here, where it's more likely that teachers will be asked "What church do you go to?"
Of course, this is the Bible belt. It's also pretty expected that you will not assign homework on Wednesday because so many kids are in church on Wednesday night, and in fact a teacher who does assign homework on Wednesday will probably have a complaint filed about him/her with the principal.
A friend of mine teaches at the local middle school, where one teacher is an atheist, she has said so publicly, and in fact my husband did some work at her house and she told him, so I'm not getting this solely through rumor mill (admitting, of course, I did not hear it from her own lips, but I trust my husband.) Regardless, even if she ISN'T atheist, the point is the community THINKS she is.
Anyway, at our school system you cannot request a specific teacher, but you do have the option to send a letter to the principal opting out of a teacher, in other words, you could send a letter that said "Do not put my child in Mrs. X's class" and the principal would do it. At this particular middle school, the principal usually receives about 50-75 letters a year from parents requesting that this teacher not teach their child.
Now, I myself would never send such a letter based solely on the fact that this woman had publicly declared herself an atheist. I do not believe religious affiliation or lack thereof has any effect on a person's capability of being a good teacher. But this is the Bible belt, as I said already, and down here at least, announcing to the class that you were an atheist would cause a pretty strong reaction from parents, even if the teacher did nothing wrong.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
That's... sad.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I tell my physics students my religion. Of course, I don't REALLY have a choice since my district has school on rosh hashanah and yom kippur, and I'm not there those days. But its easy enough to tell high school students "I'm Jewish." "Why?" "Thats personal."
Actually, with 16-18 year olds, the strategy I usually use when kids ask about my personal life or politics (or whatever) is "If you really want to talk about it, come see me after school." So far, i've had one student come once.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Wait.
If you say "I'm Jewish", a high schooler says "why?" Outside the context of a sit down and talk-about it after school discussion?
That's also sad.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Well, its not as sad when you realize they ask me "why" about any bit of personal information i let slip, accidentally or otherwise. They're mostly just curious about the people who have power over them.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I was going to say, that doesn't surprise me in the least. I've noticed even when I go in as a student teacher, I get the third degree.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: I tell my physics students my religion. Of course, I don't REALLY have a choice since my district has school on rosh hashanah and yom kippur, and I'm not there those days. But its easy enough to tell high school students "I'm Jewish." "Why?" "Thats personal."
Actually, with 16-18 year olds, the strategy I usually use when kids ask about my personal life or politics (or whatever) is "If you really want to talk about it, come see me after school." So far, i've had one student come once.
I was shocked my students did not figure it out yesterday. I always start my lesson with something significant about that day. It could be a holiday, it could be the day the stapler was patented. On Monday I talked about Rosh Hashanah starting at sunset, and explained a bit about the holiday. I guess they just did not notice my absence yesterday. I know, I'm an atheist, but I still spend the day with my mother each year now.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
My beloved philosophy of religion professor said, at the beginning of the term, something like this: "And by the way, I am not going to discuss my personal beliefs about religion. This class isn't about testimony but about understanding and critically analyzing ideas in historical and cultural contexts. Testifying about your or my individual beliefs is not going to help that analysis."
I have known him for almost 20 years now, and we haven't had that particular discussion yet. As we call one another by our first names now, I bet I could ask, though. But for the class? Not relevant, possibly obfuscatory. As a student, I came to very much appreciate and rely on that.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:In doing so, you are necessarily touching on religion. For instance, if you come up with an ethical theory that explains right and wrong entirely without referring to God, you contradict all those religions that say one cannot understand right and wrong without first accepting God.
This is like telling an artist that they can't draw a candlestick without drawing two faces in the negative space around it. The artist didn't draw the faces, and an ethical theory that doesn't touch on religion doesn't touch on religion. The fact that it can be perceived as a contradiction of a religious belief doesn't make it a contradiction until the context is supplied by someone other than the person explaining the theory.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:As a teacher, you have a position of authority and I think it would be unethical to use that authority to influence students religious interests and beliefs -- even if its unintentional.
This is an interesting thought - why do you think this is unethical?
I'd be inclined to think that, except perhaps in government-sponsored public schools (where freedom of religion legal issues come into play), teachers have an ethical responsibility to serve as role models to students. Part of that means modeling the difference between right and wrong, which inherently touches on religion, especially when religions are being studied. For instance, a teacher that teaches students to respect different religions is going to have a very different influence than a teacher that techers students that foreign religions are bizarre and absurd.
The issue is one of professional ethics. As an educator I feel it is my obligation to model good professional ethics for my students. The profession of teaching puts one in a position of authority. It would be unethical of me to misuse that authority even if the misuse is unintentional.
A teacher has two distinctly different types of authority. The first is the authority to assign grades and assess students. I'm pretty sure you'd agree that it would be unethical for me to, for example, offer extra credit to anyone who converted to Mormonism or even extra credit for listening to the Mormon Missionaries.
The second type of authority a teacher holds is more etherial, it is the authority that comes with being a recognized expert. When one is recognized as an expert because of ones profession or title, one is ethically obligate to use that authority only when it is justified. It is unethical to imply that your degree, title, or position makes you an expert in something when it does not.
The classic example of this are medical doctors who endorse products. Very frequently these doctors have no more expertise in the product the average Joe who tried it once, but their endorsement is considered to be more authoritative than average Joe's because of the the initials M.D. behind their name.
My PhD wasn't awarded because of my Testimony of Jesus Christ. I do not hold the position of Professor because I am more spiritually adept than other people and more able to discern divine truths. In fact I sincerely doubt that I have any other than average abilities in these areas. Yet because of the relationships that often exists between teacher and student, there is a very real possibility that some students would consider my religious opinions to be more authoritative and might give more weight to my testimony of Jesus Christ because of the position that I hold. For this reason, I feel ethically obliged to be very circumspect about my religious beliefs around my students. I don't hide my beliefs but I don't advertise my religion with art and posters, I don't hand out tracts or bear my testimony to my students. If asked, which rarely happens, I answer honestly but briefly.
I should add that I don't teach religion but I think the same principles apply. If I taught religion at any place other than a religious institution, I would likely refuse to discuss my personal religious beliefs with my students for the reasons best articulated by CT earlier in this thread.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The second type of authority a teacher holds is more etherial, it is the authority that comes with being a recognized expert. When one is recognized as an expert because of ones profession or title, one is ethically obligate to use that authority only when it is justified. It is unethical to imply that your degree, title, or position makes you an expert in something when it does not.
I agree. But would you agree that telling students your religion is only unethical insofar as they might think your position makes you an expert on which religion is true?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I agree. But would you agree that telling students your religion is only unethical insofar as they might think your position makes you an expert on which religion is true?
No, the issue is much more nuanced than that. Since I don't teach religion, I don't see an ethical problem with revealing my religion to a student if the subject arises, I am simply extremely cautious about any interaction I might have with my students which could be remotely construed as proselytizing.
I'd definitely have a problem with using class time or official student contact hours to say anything about my religion.
If I were teaching an ethics class or a philosophy of religion class at an institution other than my own church, I'd be extremely reticent to reveal any information about my persona religious beliefs for the reason CT explained earlier. As a teacher, I also have a professional ethical responsibility to teach objectively and sometimes that means hiding my personal opinions when I think they will interfere with the students abilities to objectively assess the material.
That doesn't mean I avoid sharing any of my opinions with my students. I've taught engineering ethics and I am more than willing to share my opinions on professional ethics. I'm also willing to tell my students what I think of GW Bush, the WTO and numerous other controversial issues.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [QUOTE] I'm also willing to tell my students what I think of GW Bush, the WTO and numerous other controversial issues.
That is another issue that will come up shortly. As a social studies teacher I don't share my political views because I teach current events, and again want them to think for themselves.
However we are doing a school wide mock election, and I am worried about other teachers sharing their views a little too much.
My wife is a 5th grade teacher, and held a mock election in 2004. She did a wonderful job teaching views of both Bush and Kerry. Then along comes the music teacher slamming Bush on a daily basis. Only one or two students ended up voting for him.
Now of course there is a huge difference in the power to think for themselves between college students and 5th or 7th graders.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yes, there is a huge difference, but it doesn't matter. A teacher should not discuss their political views if in so doing, they are seeking to influence others. Regardless of whether the students are 5th graders or college grad students.
Two years ago, I had a professor pushing voter registration in a class. Wonderful idea, I think everyone old enough to vote should be registered.
But then he made the comment "I only want you to register if you're going to vote Democrat."
Totally inappropriate, and shouldn't be done. I also had a linguistics professor whose made-up sentences on the board were always political and trashing Bush.
Now, I don't have a problem with these professors being Democrat or liberal, or hating Bush. I'm not terribly bothered by the sentences, either, because it's not as if we had to agree with the sentences in order to get a good grade in the class. I'm more bothered by a professor only wanting students who were going to vote Democrat to register - that one did disturb me (and I reported it to the dean of his department, in fact.)
It's election time, and I know for a fact who my professors are voting for because they've all brought it up one way or another. Again, they can have views, I'm not saying they shouldn't. But, when they try to tell a student who that student should vote for, I think it's crossing the line. Even if you're 19, 20 years old when someone who is authority over you tells you what you "should do" you might feel inclined to listen to them. Especially if no alternative view is presented or allowed to be discussed. I actually heard a classroom discussion on politics where the professor said something akin to "and if you're conservative, just keep quiet, we don't want to hear from you."
If the academic setting allowed for open discussion and all viewpoints to be heard, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the shutting down of other opinions that upsets me.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:As a teacher, I also have a professional ethical responsibility to teach objectively and sometimes that means hiding my personal opinions when I think they will interfere with the students abilities to objectively assess the material.
I work in a private school affiliated with the Episcopal Church - although I should add that I'm not a teacher and not a member of the Episcopal Church. Most of our students are not members of that church either; most are members of other Christian religions, but some have non-Christian backgrounds such as Judaism or atheism.
At our chapel services, starting in the middle school grades, faculty members are encouraged to get up to speak openly about their experiences with religion. This is considered a part of the students' education and for their benefit. Yet you seem to be asserting that teachers, by their profession, have an ethical responsibility not to throw the weight of their position behind a religious viewpoint because they are not experts on which religion is right. So do you think this practice is unethical? Do you think it undermines their ability to teach objectively in the classroom?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think, Tres, that it depends on the setting.
It isn't unethical when the students and their guardians have an expectation that such opinions may be expressed-- for example, at a private school. Presumably, students attend there BECAUSE of a certain mindset that that setting cultivates, so it makes sense that religious experiences would be shared there.
But the public school setting has a different set of expectations.
ETA: Obviously, I don't think that the mere presentation of religious or political beliefs by someone in authority to his subordinates is always unethical; I think that it CAN be, when the expression breaks trust with what the subordinates expectations are.
[ October 02, 2008, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"I tell my physics students my religion. Of course, I don't REALLY have a choice since my district has school on rosh hashanah and yom kippur, and I'm not there those days."
Ev, why did I think you were an atheist? Was I just not paying attention to your posts?
Also, after reading Belle's posts, I'm proud to say that, although I'm from rural North Carolina, there certainly is no prohibition here of any kind, formal or not, against giving students Wednesday night homework. Truthfully, I'm a little surprised at Belle's post, though. I thought I myself was from the dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks. I guess it's all relative.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:So do you think this practice is unethical?
I think it is, if a stated goal of the school is to produce free thinkers. If the goal of the school is to indoctrinate, there's nothing wrong with their current approach.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
The stated goal is to produce graduates who are good and knowledgable people.
Why do you think that hearing from faculty about their religious experiences would discourage free thinking? Do you think that, for instance, having a faculty member stand up and speak about his or her experiences fighting off cancer would inherently discourage free thinking about the topic of cancer?
The intention, as I understand it, is to encourage students to think about the topic.
[ October 03, 2008, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Faculty have power over students minds, tres. we are in a position where it is assumed by our listeners that everything we say carries great weight. When we express our opinion, it encourages students to endorse our particular opinion.
When there are legitimate differences of opinion, faculty can promote free thinking by NOT taking sides.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
You are assuming that encouraging students to enorse a particular view automatically discourages free thought.
When I was in high school I was encouraged to consider Shakespeare a great author, to accept the scientific method to be valid, to understand why the Civil War was about more than simply slavery, etc. But the fact that the faculty took those positions, and wanted us to take those positions, did not discourage us students from thinking freely. In fact, it usually encouraged us to think freely, because (1) teachers explained to us what reasoning led to those positions thus modeling for us how to reason, and (2) it encouraged us to think about things that we otherwise wouldn't bother thinking about. The same thing was true in college... I studied philosophy, and if ever there is a discipline that encourages thinking freely it is philosophy. Yet every single professor that I had, except one, was very specific on where they stood on the issues we discussed in class. But they were always very careful to explain not only why they thought that way but also why others disagree.
I've definitely had classes that discouraged free thought during my education, but the difference in those classes was the way they were taught. Instead of being given reasons for facts, we were just given facts and told they were true. Instead of being asked to explain why they were true, we were just tested on if we remembered them. The teachers did not endorse the things they were teaching us any more in those particular classes; the teachers just taught it all in a far more authoritative way.
So, I don't believe faculty endorsing a position automatically discourages free thought. I think it depends almost entirely on HOW faculty endorse the position. If a teacher says "X is true, period - remember that because you'll be tested on it" then it probably discourages free thought. If a teacher says "I believe X for this reason, but others believe Y - what do you think and why?" then, although it probably still encourages students to agree with the teacher, it also teaches free thought.
Anecdotally... Once they get to ninth grade or above, the students themselves are asked to speak about their own religious experiences. According to the chaplain, the overwhelming favorite topic they choose to discuss is skepticism - why they aren't sure if God exists or that their particular religion is true.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"You are assuming that encouraging students to enorse a particular view automatically discourages free thought. "
Yes. The teacher has coercive power. There may be specfic students who are exceptions to the rule (I doubt it), but teachers can't express an opinion without pushing students either towards or away from that opinion. Neither is acceptable in a public school format.
To clarify, neither is acceptable when discussing religion.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:, I'm a little surprised at Belle's post, though. I thought I myself was from the dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks.
Insulting the area where I live, raise my children, and hope to work does not endear you to me. Probably you don't care. But, perhaps you might consider that the informal practice of no homework on Wednesday is a recognition that many families in this area are protestant, and attend church on Wednesdays, and there is no need to unnecessarily burden those kids and families with the stress of homework on a night when they plan to worship.
In other words, in stead of being dumb hicks, maybe the teachers grasp that learning does not suffer if homework is not assigned on Wednesdays and in fact it might benefit all concerned if kids don't come into school bleary eyed on Thursday morning because they had to stay up late to finish homework after church.
I'd much rather live in an area where teachers are aware that kids' lives don't end when they leave the school building, and where it serves to be cognizant of what affects their students outside the school walls. In other words, it pays for me, as a teacher, to understand something of the culture of the overwhelming majority of my students. Not only that, it fosters a good relationship with their parents, and with the community as a whole. That, I would think, should be a goal of teachers. YOu do after all, teach people - not automatons who shut down when they leave school. You teach kids, and you impact families and communities, and you should be cognizant of that.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
*agrees with belle*
All my homework is 3-4 day homework, for just that reason. If a kid is busy one night, he does it the next. The homework is slightly longer then if it were for just one night, but you got a track meet that day? Fine. You can run in your track meet and do the homework the next day.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I have no problem with it. Not assigning homework on Wednesdays is no different than not assigning tests on Yom Kippur.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
What's so special about Wednesday nights? At my high school not even Thanksgiving was sacred....
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
I think you should tell them, because your basic views will color your class whether you tell them explicitly or not.
I do this with my classes, on topics like this: I tell them, so they can be aware of my bias and discount it, rather than have it work on them unawares. The point of telling them is not to make my viewpoint the center of discussion, but to *prevent* it from being, by getting it out of the way. (I present it that way, too, which makes it clear I'm not looking for converts.) I'm teaching college classes, so it's different, but I still cringe to think that junior high students might be swayed by bias like the music teacher's rather than learn to deal with it up front.
In essence, I present them with 2 Qaz's: the biased one, and the moderator, so they can know they have to pay attention to the moderator but not the biased one.
[ October 03, 2008, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Qaz ]
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Insulting the area where I live, raise my children, and hope to work does not endear you to me. Probably you don't care."
So are all the school buses in your county short?
LOL
OK, seriously, Belle, the behavior of those around you isn't your fault. I don't blame you for being from there, much, just like I hope people wouldn't make absolute judgments about me, either, for being from rural NC. They often did, in college...finding out that someone with my accent was a National Merit Scholar and a fine orchestral musician was and is a shock for some folks. But, more to the point, I think it helps to know where you stand in the world. Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
------
Edited for spelling, etc..
[ October 03, 2008, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: steven ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
What makes you think I need to "know" this? Do you seriously believe I am NOT aware that the conservative Bible belt in which I live is not the same as every other community in America? Do you honestly think I don't understand that the area I am from has a higher concentration of church-going, conversative Protestants than anywhere else? That is why they call it the Bible belt, after all. Unless you weren't aware of that. I can assure you, I was.
quote:So are all the school buses in your county short?
With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all. That type of insensitivity is very unbecoming in a teacher, and rather than unnecessarily educating me on my own community, maybe you should spend time examining yourself and whether or not someone with your attitude and prejudices should be in charge of educating young people at all.
Putting LOL after an incredibly demeaning comment does not make it okay. I would not expect a teacher to stoop to such lows as making "short-bus" jokes. There are people in this online community who have children with special needs and who spend their lives in advocacy for the disabled. This type of crass humor has no place here.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: But, more to the point, I think it helps to know where you stand in the world. Your school system is close to one extreme, compared to many others in this country, right? Now you know. I thought you might find that information to be useful.
Why is it that your attempts to "help" others so often involve insulting people?
You didn't just identify an "extreme," you also gave a profoundly ignorant characterization of that extreme. You're fooling no one here.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all.
Note that Stephan, who started this thread, and Steven, who you are responding to here, are not the same poster. It reads to me like you might have them conflated.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Good catch, dkw. I am fairly certain that steven is not a teacher.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Yup, different person here. My name is pronounced differently to.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"With a comment like that, I think the function of this thread shouldn't be what you should tell your students, but maybe whether or not you should be teaching at all. That type of insensitivity is very unbecoming in a teacher, and rather than unnecessarily educating me on my own community, maybe you should spend time examining yourself and whether or not someone with your attitude and prejudices should be in charge of educating young people at all."
Does anyone remember me ever saying I'm a teacher? I'm not.
Belle, I'm sorry I've upset you. Honestly. It really surprises me that there's somewhere in the U.S. that is that much more religiously conservative than where I grew up and live. You talked about the Bible Belt. That's where I thought I lived...now I'm wondering if I'm even on the Bible suspenders.
In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted. There are plenty of known lynchers alive today, who have never been brought to trial.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted.
That's holding yourself to a high standard: "I'm insulting, but I didn't beat and lynch you."
Seriously, steven, admit you were being boorish and drop it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It really surprises me that there's somewhere in the U.S. that is that much more religiously conservative than where I grew up and live.
Do you even understand that what was objectionable about your post was that you characterized a region where a significant portion of the population goes to Wednesday night church as the "dumb-as-a-country-rock sticks"? I'm not sure how being surprised about the religious practices of those in a region you've never lived in is supposed to be an excuse for such rudeness.
quote:In a general sense, my comments are no more insensitive than the beatings and lynchings of civil rights activists in Alabama, etc., many of which have never been prosecuted. There are plenty of known lynchers alive today, who have never been brought to trial.
They're actually much less insensitive. That doesn't mean they're not rude as hell. I honestly can't tell if you actually mean this crap or if you honestly don't see how crazy it sounds.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Seriously, steven, admit you were being boorish and drop it."
Sure.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Yes. The teacher has coercive power. There may be specfic students who are exceptions to the rule (I doubt it), but teachers can't express an opinion without pushing students either towards or away from that opinion. Neither is acceptable in a public school format.
To clarify, neither is acceptable when discussing religion.
It is unacceptable in public schools for reasons having to do with the First Amendment. I was talking about a private school, though. More generally, I was asking whether hearing a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint would be harmful or helpful for the students, in terms of their learning.
I agree that a teacher giving an opinion can likely influence the students in some way, but I disagree that that necessarily discourages free thinking or that it is harmful for students' ability to learn. It depends on what exactly the teacher is saying, how he or she goes about saying it, and to which age group he or she is saying it - depending on those details, it does not need to be coercive. If a college professor says "I was brought up personally believing in atheism" then it is not coercive. If an elementary school teacher says "You should know that God doesn't exist!" to third graders then it is coercive.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Oh my goodness, thanks dkw for pointing that out.
I did indeed conflate the two - Stephan, you have my apologies for presuming you made the comment Steven made.
I'm very sorry.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"More generally, I was asking whether hearing a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint would be harmful or helpful for the students, in terms of their learning. "
Generally speaking, a teacher expressing a religious viewpoint is probably harmful in the same way that expressing a political view point is harmful. The teacher isn't an authority on the subject, but carries the aura of authority, and so the opinion is treated as being spoken by an authority.
Some few kids will take the opinion and research it carefully. but most won't... they'll either take it as obviously correct because the teacher said it, or obviously wrong because the teacher said it.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
See, my problem is not that a teacher has a certain belief.
My problem is not that the teacher convinces the students of that belief, possibly saving souls or doing good along the way.
My problem is that if you say, "I believe X" some students are going to think, "If I don't believe X, or if I don't pretend to believe X, or worse, if I let my belief in Y come out in class, then the teacher will punish me."
I don't think you will punish people of faith in your class, even though you disagree with them.
But I do think that your announced Atheism will force others to hide their faith, talk less in class, and participate and learn less.
Unfortunately there are teachers that would grade on a faith-based curve.
Someone mentioned that teachers gave their opinions in class that "Shakespeare was a great writer." This did not mean that they had to agree, and that they were open to dissenting opinions. However, if you dissented on a Shakespeare final, your grade would suffer.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That last paragraph? They should. Shakespeare was fantastic.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It would be foolish to dissent that Shakespeare was a great writer. One cannot deny the impact he has had on Western literature, and by any definition I can come up with for "great" - Shakespeare was great.
Now, that's not to say that everyone will enjoy reading Shakespeare. Some will not. Some just plain don't enjoy reading dramatic texts. Some dislike reading things written in an older form of English. Some dislike tragic story lines and will not like the tragedies, or don't relate to the humor and so discount the comedies.
Our job as English lit teachers is to expose kids to literature they might otherwise not pick up on their own, and if all goes well, to open their minds and help them see a world they didn't see before. All students will not fall in love with the literature we read in class, no matter how good of a teacher you are. But, you have to make the attempt.
My job is not to teach students WHAT to think, but rather how, and then how to express what they feel. If they don't like a particular work, that's fine - but they've got to be able to articulate why they don't like it and back it up. "It's boring" is not good enough. Neither is "It's stupid." But if on a final they wrote an essay detailing why they thought Romeo and Juliet was an unrealistic portrayal of teenage romance and where they felt the plot was weak - and that essay was supported with textual evidence and was well-written - full marks.
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As we call one another by our first names now, I bet I could ask, though. But for the class? Not relevant, possibly obfuscatory. As a student, I came to very much appreciate and rely on that.