Body mods, for those of you who don't know, is short for "body modification", a blanket term referring to any outward changing of the body through surgical or other means, ie., piercings, tattoos, scarification, gauging, etc.
However, for the purpose of this subject, I will be referring mainly to piercings [particularly facial ones] and tattoos.
I am a female still in high school, living with my father, and recently celebrated my seventeenth birthday.
I've had rebellious tendencies just like any other kid, but generally I've always been a good kid-never do drugs [referred to as "straight edge"], have generally hung out with good people, always brought home decent grades, had high morals, things like that.
I, however, have always been somewhat unconventional in dress and manner-I'm a proud pagan, listen to death metal, dress like your average "rocker" in that I like heavy makeup, corsets, boots, leather jackets, skinny jeans, etc.
I was very fortunate in that my parents always supported my expressing myself through my dress and words, and were generous in not stifling me [within reason, of course.]
So whenever I asked my father if I could get a simple, tastefully-done eyebrow piercing for my birthday I was surprised when he rejected my offer.
He said that he thought that doing that could give people the wrong impression of me and close up many doors for me. He said that he knew what that felt like, him having worn long hair and a long beard his whole life, and that he wanted the best possible opportunities for me.
He said he didn't like that the world was that way, he didn't agree with it, but he said there was plenty of chance for me to succeed and change the world from the inside later on in life. He went on to explain how I would always have the choice to do what I want when I was eighteen, but while still with him he would do his best to protect me.
I stated my displeasure by explaining that I would have the common sense to take out the piercing during work, appropriate functions etc., just like I have the common sense and general decorum to wear a nice dress or blouse and dress pants during a formal event, instead of a Children of Bodom shirt and Chucks.
He said that even when the piercings were out you could still tell that they were there, because of the holes. I said I wasn't going to gauge a two-inch hole in my eyebrow, just a small piercing, and he still refused.
[FYI, on a side note, although I do agree with my father to some extent and respect his decision, IMO it's more important to be up-front about how you choose to express yourself, because later in life I don't want to have the regret that I didn't stand up for my right to self-expression when I had the chance, even if it might meant certain things lost.]
So, my question is, coming from learned adults, does society still have the general impression that piercings and/or tattoos=degenerate druggie?
Honestly, do many of the older generation still have the notion of "those darn kids with their 8-track players, their Sega Genesis; why, in my day..."
Obviously, someone with swastikas and vile words tattooed on their forehead and fifteen piercings per *ear* might not be the best candidate, but do several small piercings, even when taken out,or easily-covered tattoos, change your perception of people?
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I am a male 19 year-old college student. Weigh my response accordingly.
In my book lip piercings are not very good. Eyebrow piercings are generally not good, but I'd say smaller the better. Ears are reasonable until you have a bajillion. nose is reasonable if it's subtle (large rings/etc are off-putting to me) belly button is fine. Anything else (like multiple back piercings to be able to lifted by helicopter... (I've seen it on the internets..)) is just too freakin' weird.
Easily covered tattoos are reasonable, but I'm generally against them due to the permanence
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus: So, my question is, coming from learned adults, does society still have the general impression that piercings and/or tattoos=degenerate druggie?
Society is not a homogeneous mass. But yes, many do.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
It's not just older generations who have a stigma about it; I'm only 19 and I harbor negative views about "body mods". It probably doesn't help that my brother decided to get a few tattoos and piercings: he dropped out of college, works at a gas station, and smokes marijuana all day.
Edit: "[FYI, on a side note, although I do agree with my father to some extent and respect his decision, IMO it's more important to be up-front about how you choose to express yourself, because later in life I don't want to have the regret that I didn't stand up for my right to self-expression when I had the chance, even if it might meant certain things lost.]"
I think it should be noted that there's a difference between rebelling because you think that your cause is right, and rebelling for its own sake.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
Starsnuffer-Everyone has a general opinion on what they thing looks good. Do you think that these are merely aesthetically pleasing, or are they ones that you find acceptable?
I've personally always subscribed that anyone can get anything done, so long as they don't go overboard in number, it's a safe piercing done by a trained professional and properly taken care of, and it's looks good with their face. [Except septums-I've only ever seen two people it looked good on, and they were both male.]
Rivka-I'm glad society is not a homogeneous mass. That would make both travel and mating rather awkward, although I suppose both would be unnecessary in such a society.
Do you find, however, that such a thing could inhibit somebody?
Edit: Jon Hecht: Although I try to keep a control on my wilder teenage instincts, I feel that this is about more than just piercings, personally. Although many would argue that, yes, for most, it's just about piercings.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I'm not saying that it's just about piercings; what I am saying is that this is where these negative stereotypes come from, and (regardless of whether or not you are party to them) they exist.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
" it's more important to be up-front about how you choose to express yourself, because later in life I don't want to have the regret that I didn't stand up for my right to self-expression when I had the chance,"
So, your "expressing" yourself, by getting body piercings just like every other "different" punkgoth rocker? Your conforming no matter which way you look at it.
I don't consider that expression. Stupidity perhaps. Not expression.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Lanfear, perhaps that is a bit harsh, not to mention counterproductive.
Vyrus, it seems that you're searching for validation, not opinions.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I can't speak for society as a whole. Personally, I would have a negative initial reaction to seeing piercings beyond one or two ear holes. Stretched ears, septums, nose, tongue... these all actively and strongly gross me out. Eyebrows and lips create a less severe reaction but I still react negatively. I'm less affected by tattoos and hair coloring. I could probably be friends with someone who had mods if I was given enough time to adjust my own thinking, but I definitely could not date someone with "abnormal" piercings.
I can tell you that my last several employers have rejected potential applicants based on physical appearance alone. Also by the way an applicant speaks, but that's not relevant to the discussion at hand.
And I'm likely among the "older generation" in your eyes as my eldest daughter is almost your age.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I'm a stuffy adult, so probably just the demographic you're looking for. And I will admit that when I see anything more than a couple of ear piercings, I look upon that person with ... reservations. It gives me the impression that they're trying to get attention, possibly by shocking people; and I wonder why they would want to shock people. I try to leave my mind open that they might be perfectly nice and respectable people; but yes, as far as first impressions go, facial piercings and body modifications cause me to wonder what other extreme stuff they like to do.
That said, I have one sister with a pierced navel and a couple tattoos, and one sister with a pierced tongue. I can get over my first impressions. But in situations where first impressions are all you get - yes, they're going to be affected by body modifications, and probably not in a good way.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I don't know that all that many people in society feel that way privately, but piercings and tattoos still have a major impact on public life and career. Even if a manager or business owner might feel that tattoos or piercings are reasonable and do not reflect irresponsibility, he/she may not employ someone with them for fear that his/her customers do not feel the same. Some school districts and many companies have dress codes (for teachers, staff, & employees) that expressly forbid any visible tattoos or piercings.
Thus, I believe your father is right in denying this request. You may feel that this self expression is worth the opportunities it may cost you, but at 17 you don't really have the perspective to understand those costs. I was a bit of an idealistic young rebel myself, though my rebellion took a slightly different form. In the end, I've come to find that my rebellion cost me more than it was worth in many ways.
But, as your dad says - you'll be 18 soon, and can decide for yourself. At least you're being reasonable, and often times small piercing holes will heal up and be virtually unnoticeable if you later realize that particular form of self expression is closing a few too many doors. I'm glad you're not considering tattooing "rebel for life" across your forehead - that might justify more serious intervention!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Eyebrow piercings won't be a problem for you, because you can take them out for job interviews. (Note: wearing them to a job interview would be a mistake.) What you don't want to do is something that you can't remove.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
JonHecht-Okay, I understand what you're saying now, and I agree. It's horrible.
Lanfear-there's nothing I can possibly do in my life that hasn't been done or said before.
So, yes, looking at conformity that way, you're right.
I don't choose to do things because other people have. I choose to do things because that's what I enjoy.
I choose to get piercings because I appreciate the way that they look. I choose to wear the clothing I do because I like the way that it fits, that it looks. I listen to my music because I like the way that it sounds. That's the same reason I read the books I do, the same reason that you read the books that you do.
I am undoubtedly not the first person to dress the way that I do, but I do not, however, do things exactly the way that every other stereotypical child my age does.
Yes, it's natural to be influenced by friends, by family, people you admire. That's human nature. [Emulation is the highest form of flattery, after all.] However, there is a large difference between choosing to be similar to somebody because you enjoy that particular trait, and seeking to be a perfect reflection of them.
I refuse to believe that I'm a carbon copy of everyone else that dresses "punkgoth".
When you read a book that other people like, are you attempting to imitate them for imitation's sake?
You, good sir [or ma'dame] have called me a poser, have insinuated that I do things merely for social acceptance, because I feel the need to live up to other people's standards, or to rebel to tell other people to "shoot those standards to hell."
Neither of these things are true.
I was only seeking to ask a general question from people whose opinions I understand to be learned, and I did not set out to put anyone out, and if I did so, I apologize.
But I do feel you are wrong in this situation.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
Thank you all for your opinions.
I try to remind myself that I won't be seventeen forever, and that what's important to me now may not be as important in twenty years.
I also know to take things out before I go to a job interview.
Honestly, if I saw someone with an unnecessary amount of facial tattoos, I'd find it someone offputting as well.
Yeah, some of the more extreme mods freak me out. [gauging and lip discs make me cringe XO.]
Posted by The Genuine (Member # 11446) on :
Body mods are exciting in the short term, but are not worth it in the long term.
That's what I'd tell my daughter. Don't do it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Honestly, my impression from the people I know and interact with in person is that body modification isn't some form of pure self expression, but rather a form of interaction with other people.
It's a form of saying to people with similar piercings, we're alike.
It's a form of saying to old/stuffy people, I don't like your rules, man.
Emphasis on the latter, honestly. In other words, I don't think most people who choose multiple body piercings or tattoos or whatever would be attracted to those forms of expression if they weren't offensive to some ideologically-opposed segment of the population.
But to be honest, hair style and color can be as jarring and as opportunity-limiting as an eyebrow piercing, easily. And it's marginally harder to change or hide for a brief period of time like going to a job interview.
I would not worry too much about looking back later with regret on unexploited opportunities for self expression, when those opportunities amounted to superficial decoration. What meaning does an eyebrow piercing have, after all? What can you say with a ring in your forehead that you can't say more meaningfully in art, or in your choice of career? Only those things, I suspect, that render the question of stigma moot.
Don't bother fighting your dad on this. A year is not long to wait for anything. In a year you'll at least know whether your current desire will have proved to be fleeting.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
What a great dad. Not for saying no--for explaining in such detail why he's saying no. He's showing a lot of respect for you--he sounds like a wonderful person.
When you turn 18 (which will happen really quickly), don't do anything irreversible or un-cover-upable.
Oh, and as a stodgy older person: Facial piercings and body tattoos don't really say to me that someone is unreliable--just that they're, well, young.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm more likely to be put off by your heavy makeup than a tasteful eyebrow piercing alone.
And by "put off" I mean not judging your intellectual capabilities or your propensity towards doing drugs. I mean being highly distracted by it and wondering where your face has gone and why you look bizarre.
All in all, I believe in being presented nicely and expressing yourself by what you do, rather than in how bizarre you look.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't know if piercings and tattoos really mean "degenerate druggie," especially tattoos. I think excessive piercings, especially less common ones are generally associated with goth culture, which I also think by extension can be ridiculed amongst OTHER young people as emo.
I'm in my mid 20's, so, maybe I grew up in the culture more but I don't make a whole lot of assumptions about people with piercings. I might be a little taken aback sometimes, and personally I think most piercings are very unattractive, but I'm not going to prejudge you and not talk to you because of it. That opinion might be different if I was an employer, not because I'd assume you're a degenerate, but because I think it's unprofessional.
I don't think tattoos are a problem so long as they aren't freakishly excessive, and as far as your job goes, so long as they are in a place that can be hidden when you're in a professional environment. Several of my friends either have them, or are soon getting them, and all of them are college graduates, none of whom do drugs. Tattoos cut across the social strata, and lots of different kinds of people have tattoos in various shapes and sizes for various reasons. I might get one some day, but it's not a high priority.
Belly button piercings and ear piercings are about the only kinds I personally find visually appealing. Everything else I'm not a fan of, aesthetically.
Lanfear -
I think that's pretty over the top. In that respect, almost anything you do that puts you into some sort of social stereotype isn't you expressing yourself, it's you conforming. I think that's both condescending and wrong. First off, I don't think that expression and conformity are mutually exclusive. If she chooses to act in a way that results in society and people like you placing her into a defined group, even if she is intentionally emulating them, she's still expressing herself. Just because several people decide to express themselves together and in similar ways doesn't negate the expression itself.
scifibum -
quote:Honestly, my impression from the people I know and interact with in person is that body modification isn't some form of pure self expression, but rather a form of interaction with other people.
I agree and disagree with you. I think it's a form of self-expression AND a form of interaction with other people. It's not necessarily "hey let's have tattoos together" and it's not sticking it to the man. I think it could easily be someone deciding to say "this is important to me and I want others to know it." Or it could just as easily be "this is important to me NOW and I want people to see it," which is subtly different but important I think.
At the end of the day though, I'd reiterate what Tom said about not getting piercings that can't be removed, or that can't be removed without noticeable marks leftover. Eventually you'll have to look professional, and you should weigh your current desires against the possibility that you might change your mind in the future. Find a balance.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
What I think looks good, broadly: ear piercing, nose(not septum) (if it's small/discrete), belly button piercing.
I think what it boils down to is not having piercings is obviously ok, and having piercings is at least potentially not ok. I'd say the less you do to yourself the better, because hey, who can argue with what is standard.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
The whole eyebrow-piercing, ear-gauging thing is just a fad thats gonna blow over in a couple of years. I'm pretty sure your dad wants to make sure that you won't get something you'll be embarassed of a few years later. You're a rocker now, but who knows what you'll be ten years from now. You're seventeen and you've got a lot of your life to live up. I'm your age too, and I'm putting those types of things off until I'm dead positive I want them, and I may never be.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
( Damnit, not a Bioshock thread ... )
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
quote:Originally posted by Liz B: What a great dad. Not for saying no--for explaining in such detail why he's saying no. He's showing a lot of respect for you--he sounds like a wonderful person.
Thank you, I've always felt very fortunate to have such a good father, and I hope to be as accepting and wise and caring if I ever have children one day. My sister is like that with her child-she's an occasional hatracker; if I could remember her name, I'd post it [it's been a while since she's been on, however.]
I've gone into great detail mentally about what tattoos and/or piercings I plan to have-all cover-up able, except for a tattoo on my forearm, that is largely writing and tastefully done, so there should be little problems--just wear long sleeves for a while.
I do, indeed, believe that actions speak far louder than image, but I nonetheless feel strongly for giving off the visual aesthetic that you feel most encapsulates you, whether that be a certain hair color, a certain religious symbol [such as a cross], or, even, piercings or tattoos. [although tattoos are often much more expressive than piercings as far as meaning goes, unless that piercing has obvious religious, philosophical, or political significance, such as a gay person getting an ear piercing to reflect that.]
Lyrhawn-I think your synopsis of bodymods as a form of self-expression is as close to my own as can be approximated, as you spake it well.
I meant "degenerate druggie" in a more loose, metaphorical sense to represent unpleasant things in people's minds-whatever thoughts they may have.
I do in some part respect the goth subculture, although I am not a dedicated "goth".
It upsets me that most people don't realize that emo is a type of music, originally evolving from emotic hardcore, a subgenre of punk. It does not strictly exist in terms of a subculture, but it does have many adherents.
I don't particularly appreciate stereotypes, or classifications placed on people, but there is nothing I can do about what labels people will place on me, as all people, especially youths, are wont to place things into known classifications and attribute particular behaviors to those classifications. It helps us make sense of the world-it's biological. For instance, if you saw an alligator, you would more than likely be wary of that gator because all your mental signals are telling you "That gator is dangerous and could cause me great pain or even death", and not decide to try and make friends with that alligator on the premise that "Just because some alligators do it, doesn't necessarily mean this one does it."
Obviously, a nose ring might not equate these same feelings, but nonetheless you respond with what you are culturally conditioned to expect.
SoaPiNuReYe-Yes, fads come and go. While I may indeed be completely different in ten years, such a thing does not always happen, as it did not happen with my father or my older sister. And, I don't think I should completely forget who I am now for who I may *possibly* be in a couple of years, although your words of warning are wisely placed.
Edit: Sorry for the misconception, Mucus. *Hands Mucus a cookie.*
Is that better?
Okay, that cookie will be $2.50
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus: there is nothing I can do about what labels people will place on me
Not entirely true. You can encourage or discourage certain impressions/labels by how you dress, amount/type of makeup, and such things as piercings and tattoos.
Was that not the point of this thread to begin with?
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I agree with rivka. I try to teach my kids simultaneously a) not to judge people by their appearance and b) that people WILL judge them by their appearance and they should keep that in mind when they decide how they want to present themselves. All the labels may not be pleasant, but if you know that a certain look will garner a certain label and you don't want people to think that of you, then you can choose not to look that way.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
Yes, I can change my visual aesthetic to get people to change their opinions of me, I fully agree.
But that all stems from how much I'm willing to change how I look; which at this point, is not much.
And, while I do care what people think of me insofar as how it may affect my ability to one day succeed in the business world, I don't particularly care what a few close-minded people's first impressions are of me. Yes, we all seek to be socially accepted, but I tend to find the ones that accept me for who I am is much better than having a large number of people for whom I have to compromise myself.
I've managed to stay away from the far-left--nothing too far out there.
Unconventional, certainly, but children do not scream and run in terror in my wake, and, as far as I know, I have as of yet to have a clergymen attempt to perform an exorcism on me.
Like you said, it's making a decision upon how I wish to present myself.
I like the straightforwardness of your replies. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus: But that all stems from how much I'm willing to change how I look; which at this point, is not much.
That's ok. You won't be 17 forever.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Things have gotten better for people with body mods but they're not necessarily acceptable.
My concern is your age. I'm not picking on you. I'm only 23 years old so I get it. But you're at a difficult age. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a job where you can wear all your piercings and tattoos. Or maybe you'll get stuck in a conservative office. Piercings aren't much fun when you spend most of your time at a job where you can't wear it.
I've started considering some visible tattoos (possible the beginnings of a sleeve) but as much as I want to go out and get it tomorrow, I have to be mature and wait. Right now with this economy, I have to be thankful for my job and one of the rules is no visible tattoos. I could wear long sleeves everyday in Louisiana heat and never even be able to push them up, but right now I can wait to get more tattoos.
That's part of what it means to grow up...knowing when to wait.
Posted by Xann. (Member # 11482) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus: if I could get a simple, tastefully-done eyebrow piercing for my
I found your problem, there is no such thing as a tastefully-done eyebrow piercing. I don't care if someone has facial piercings, but i have alot of respect for those who can be comfortable without having to change themselves. Watching some of the people around me who are trying to "make a point" by dyeing thier hair and getting more peircings than the next are just annoying. Some people are going to extremes that are just silly (I know a girl whos clevage piercing got infected and was green and pussing)
Sorry, got on a bit of a rant, I'm sixteen by the way, the person i mentioned is to. By all means get a eye brow piercing if you want, but don't feel like you have to get any more. Just buy a flesh cap for any professional setting.
there's nothing I can possibly do in my life that hasn't been done or said before.
Never think that, everything you ever done has never been done like your doing it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Not entirely true. You can encourage or discourage certain impressions/labels by how you dress, amount/type of makeup, and such things as piercings and tattoos.
I think she may have meant more that she has no control over the content of the stereotypes that her appearance choices convey.
But regardless I agree with you. Every now and then we have a discussion on Hatrack about free speech whenever someone says something and gets punished for it. Free speech means you get to say pretty much anything you want and the law will allow it, but society might not respond the same way. That rule is pretty much identical to freedom of expression.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I don't have a negative impression of a person with body mods, but I do tend to think that many of the more extreme body mods are unattractive.
Some body mods can look really good, depending on the modification and the person. Many look disfiguring, or make the person look less attractive, which I think is sometimes the point.
I don't think it makes someone a bad person, or a druggie, or a dropout to have body modification. I do think that some modifications may indicate something strongly about a person's mental and emotional state, just like the way someone dresses or how they speak tells us about them.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I think piercings just look painful. Especially eyebrow piercings. I see them and I want to cringe. Ouch! Having a hole there is a wound in a sensitive spot, not a fashion statement!
I have a harder time taking people with facial piercings seriously. As in they're forcing me to consider them at face value, along with any other attributes. When they're revealed to be warm, friendly people underneath all the metal, wonderful, but the piercings are incredibly difficult to ignore.
However, if there was a choice between non-disfiguring piercings and facial or other visible tattoos, I would choose the piercings. They can eventually be removed and healed when whatever need that inspired them is past; tattoos are pretty much permanent disfigurements once the impulse that put them there is gone. And tattoos look terrible on old people, IMO. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus:
[FYI, on a side note, although I do agree with my father to some extent and respect his decision, IMO it's more important to be up-front about how you choose to express yourself, because later in life I don't want to have the regret that I didn't stand up for my right to self-expression when I had the chance, even if it might meant certain things lost.
Wow, that's so backwards sounding. I've never met an older person who said, "boy, I sure regret not getting a tattoo or piercing when I was younger". If there are any regrets one way or the other about it, usually it's just the opposite.
I think that by the time most people reach late adulthood they realize that they express (and always have expressed) their individuality through their actions.
I personally have nothing against "body mods" that aren't too outrageous, but there are two things to keep in mind. First, depending on the type of workplace you end up in certain things might not be regarded as appropriate. Second, doing anything drastic and permanent in your teens probably isn't a great idea, because the things that appeal to you are probably going to change a lot in the next 5-10 years and beyond. Maybe wait a few years until your brain is fully developed .
(that last part wasn't meant to be insulting in any way)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I'm the mother of a 17 year old, and I'm not surprised that your father refused to give you the gift of a piercing for your birthday. I wouldn't get one for my kid, either, no matter how much he begged, no matter how important it was to him.
If he wants it that badly, then he'd just have to fund it himself.
Kind of like porn. I'm not delighted with the thought of my kid looking at smutty magazines, but if he wants to do so, there is little that I'm going to be able to do to stop it. But he shouldn't expect me to go and buy it for him.
Be rebellious on your own dime, sweetie. Otherwise it hardly counts as rebellion, and where's the fun there?
Posted by Loren (Member # 9539) on :
I'm in grad school at a university with an undergraduate student body that tends to be affluent and perhaps slightly more conservative than other universities'. Body mods are consequently fairly uncommon and, when found, usually pretty understated.
That said, piercings and tattoos are pretty common among my fellow grad students. My guess is that that sort of thing is a little more common in leftist academic circles like mine.
I don't have any tattoos because I know that I'm a changeable person. It would drive me nuts to have something that permanent on/in me.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I've seen nose studs done very tastefully, though I knew someone who gave hers up within a year because it was completely inappropriate for her job. She had a scab for a while, but I can't see it in any of her facebook photos (which are far off and low res), so whether it's still there is inconclusive. I don't know enough about eyebrow scabs. I know enough tiny nose stud people that it generates less of a semi-conscious prejudice for me.
Eyebrow piercings I'm more used to than most other piercings, but so many of them make people squirm. I don't think a lot of people are beyond the eyebrow thing yet.
I have a friend with dreadlocks (they're several years old), an eyebrow piercing, and giant earring holes. He's 24. He talked about getting a lot of glares and prejudice from the other people who were aiming to work in a counseling program to tell kids not to do drugs and drink. He is, as you are, completely straight-edge, has not had a drop of alcohol in his life. Yet, he saw a lot of subconscious reactions from the people in his program. He was pretty angry about that because he suspected he was the cleanest guy in the program.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I depends. I know from being a hiring manager that I couldn't, and wouldn't have if I could have, hire people with obvious tattoos or piercings. The fact of the matter is that I was selling upscale jewelry, and most people don't view people whith those types of body mods as trustworthy or dependable.
I know that there are a lot of people who have mods who ARE dependable, honest, and hardworking, but selling is about perception......perception gets people in the door. I know that it is hard to get a lot of jobs with those mods, and that limits your choices, which isn't a good thing.
Also, in the health profession there are many peircings that simply safe arond other people. I am not saying tongue pericings make you drool like a feind, but tehy DO increase the droplets coming out of your mouth even if you are not aware of it, and that can place a patient in danger, making you a vector for infection and/or the spread of disease.
And some are more likely to become infected, and cost people days off of work. Don't tell me it doesn't happen, I can't tell you how many people I have seen with lip, ear or nose piercings who have MAJOR issues with them.
I have no issue with them personally, but most of the time it isn't a good ting to put them where everyone knows you have them.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Before getting a facial piecing, its worth considering how they will affect different people and whether or not that's the affect you want. Its not just about stereotypes. A piercing draw attention to a particular feature and not necessarily in a favorable way.
For example, my husband is really squeamish about eyes. He has a hard time looking people in the eye who have eyebrow rings for that reason. I have a similar issue with lip rings and tongue rings. I know someone who got a lip ring caught on something and ripped open his lip. When I'm talking to someone with a iip ring or a tongue it brings really awful images to mind. When I'm talking to someone with a nose ring, I tend to end up thinking about whether or not it gets in the way when they need to blow their nose. I've discussed it with enough people to know that I'm not alone in this.
I'm not suggesting that these are necessarily reasons not to get a facial piercing. But you really should recognize that some people will respond this way and ask yourself if you really want to do something that makes a lot of people think about boogers or gruesome accidents when they are talking to you.
[ January 26, 2009, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
That reminds me that where I practiced Karate we couldn't have any jewelry/piercings/watches on ourselves during the training session. Imagine a piercing getting caught by a punch or a kick... o_O Not that anyone had piercings anyway.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
yep....it happens all the time, and people end up scarred because they thought " it wouldn't happen to ME". Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
And even if it doesn't happen to you, people will think about it when they talk to you.
It seems strange to do something deliberately to your face that will trigger a lot of people to think about boogers when they're talking to you. If that's what you want, then go ahead and get a nose ring but its silly to think that's just their problem and you can't do anything about it. Unless your parents had your face pierced while you were a baby, there is something you can do about, don't get a facial piercing.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Our teacher reminded us frequently to remove watches, rings, etc. and after a couple of years spent there most of us would advise others to take them off if we saw them. Thankfully, there were no accidents in the four years I was there.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I saw a lot of infected ones as a medic/EMT 15 years ago...I imagine it's worse now
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Nothing says "I wove you" like an infected tongue piercing. Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
To state some biases upfront, I'm in my late 20s, a psychiatry resident, and I used to frequent goth clubs.
I don't know how long you can take out an eyebrow piercing early on, or later on. I know that many workplaces won't let you wear it on the job. Some places are more forgiving of course. Personally I try not to have many preconceived notions before I meet someone. Part of my training. I feel that the more permanent and more obvious the body mod, the more you have to consider how much it limits your future options. Also consider how much flack you're willing to endure. I don't consider a single piercing particularly obvious or permanent in the spectrum of body mods.
Some body mods backfire, of course. I'm sure you're a careful person and you're much less likely to get an infection or bad scarring than another. You also know the possibilities going into it. People make decisions to do optional things all day long that have possible negative consequences. It's a part of life.
I'd like to 2nd the earlier comment about your dad. It sounds like you two have a very respectful relationship in both directions and that's pretty awesome. I wish more families worked like yours seems to.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: And even if it doesn't happen to you, people will think about it when they talk to you.
It seems strange to do something deliberately to your face that will trigger a lot of people to think about boogers when they're talking to you. If that's what you want, then go ahead and get a nose ring but its silly to think that's just their problem and you can't do anything about it. Unless your parents had your face pierced while you were a baby, there is something you can do about, don't get a facial piercing.
This really reminds me of the modesty discussion.
If all you can think about when talking to someone with a piercing is the piercing, then maybe you should work on changing that.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:If all you can think about when talking to someone with a piercing is the piercing, then maybe you should work on changing that.
That's all well and good until the person who "should work on changing that." is a prospective employer or client, police officer, judge, jury, review board, admissions board etc.
For your own interest, you may need to avoid changes to your appearance which are known to make a sizable portion of the population uncomfortable, regardless of whether those people should feel uncomfortable.
[ January 26, 2009, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Consider it in cost/benefit terms.
If you get an unusual face piercing, you get all the things out of it that you wish to. You also create strikes against you in the minds of people whom you might want something from. The more likely you are to want something from them, the greater the probability that your choice in appearance is a liability.
If you want the benefits of a more piercing more than you whatever other people can get for you (jobs, mostly), then go for it.
However, in my mind, you can't then complain about not getting jobs, etc. You already decided that you wanted the piercing more.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I read something awhile back about recent advances in tattoo ink. Currently to get a tattoo removed I think you basically have to burn it off with multiple laser treatments. A guy at work who is trying to get a better job than a restaurant worker is having his initials removed from his neck in a very long and painful process.
But a new type of ink is becoming standard in the industry that is designed to be removeable. I'm not sure entirely how it works, but the ink reacts to a laser differently and will absorb into the skin and leave no lasting marks behind. If I was on the fence between getting and not getting, that would remove the issue of permanance, which I think is the biggest sticking point to a lot of people.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: This really reminds me of the modesty discussion.
If all you can think about when talking to someone with a piercing is the piercing, then maybe you should work on changing that.
When "someone" is a person with a facial piercing, and "you" is someone interviewing for a job "someone" wants, I don't think they "have" to do anything. When you're conducting interviews and several, possibly even dozens of applicants are vying for the same job, a bad first impression can kill your chances. In non-work related public situations, human beings tend to be polite and not stare or try think that it's a big deal, but those situations don't seem to be what very many in this thread is referring to. Vyrus's father specifically referred to missed opportunities (academic, employment, etc) that would come with a facial piercing. Wrong or right, whoever has the power to open doors or give out opportunities has the power to dictate what they want in a candidate. If what they want is someone without stigmatized body mods, that's their prerogative. If it's wrong, then YOU build a successful business/university where you hire/admit whoever you want, but saying that *they* should just change their biases is silly and a little bit naive.
I remember hearing when I was about 17 that someone got an eyebrow piercing and ended up with a permanent facial twitch. Probably an urban legend, but I can't help thinking about it whenever someone talks about it.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I don't know how much that removable ink caught on. It's contrary to the idea that most people have on inking - the permanence. Giving yourself an out isn't the intention of many people getting inked.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think a great many people who either A. Don't get tattoos specifically because they're afraid about the permanence issue and B. Want a tattoo as something purely decorative rather than something specifically that lasts forever, will have no problem with it.
Besides, tattoos have never been permanent. You can remove them now, it's just expensive and painful. This just makes it cheaper, faster and more complete. And even if it IS the intention of many or most people getting tattoos, what about the people who don't specifically because of the permanence issue?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by dabbler: I don't know how much that removable ink caught on. It's contrary to the idea that most people have on inking - the permanence.
If a tattoo is a (relatively) indelible thing, the vast majority of people who are willing to get one are going to be people who are specifically after the permanence of it.
I would guess that if there were a marketing push made to let the general public know that relatively painlessly, inexpensively removable tattoos were available, you'd see a lot of people who would previously have been turned off by the permanence start getting tattoos.
I've never seriously considered getting any tattoos, personally. When I was in my teens I was aware that what, say, 14 year old Jake considered important enough (or actually, funny enough) to have inked onto my body wouldn't necessarily be something that later iterations of myself would appreciate being saddled with.
Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.
[ January 26, 2009, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Those would have been legendary! Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Be rebellious on your own dime, sweetie. Otherwise it hardly counts as rebellion, and where's the fun there?
He didn't not allow me to do it because of money-as I stated. Money, here, is hardly the issue. Eyebrows are relatively inexpensive-with maintenance and upkeep the price of an expensive video game.
I'd hoped to have made it clear that my parents are very accepting, that I'm relatively happy with my life, so I don't see why I would spite them with something rather petty, that generally wouldn't even really be upsetting anyway. And, while, like all teenagers, I have qualms with society, I hardly would ever do it to be rebellious in that sense. More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards, and less "I'm going to make you suffer by sticking piercings in my face, and possibly jeopardizing your chance of hiring me. That'll show you!"
It sounds rather stupid to me.
Not a very logical argument, just saying. But I do understand that "Phuck Yew" idea is pretty standard with a large number of teenagers.
And I hardly think an eyebrow piercing can be compared to porn, no offense.
Sarcastimuppet-Many facial piercings do do wonky things, but,as I already stated, I think it's important to get it done by a respected professional in an up-scale shop with safe instruments, and to take proper care of it. As opposed to, say, shoving a safety pin in your brow. [I've had friends who have done it, never been a good idea.] While I can't completely eliminate the chance of infection, I can greatly reduce it, as one takes chances with all sorts of hazards in life both great and small.
I didn't expect to directly change people's perceptions immediately-such a thing can be quite challenging. I merely hoped to express to them an example of what people they traditionally thought as lesser could do, and try to show them that looks don't dictate anything about a person's personality. That's about as much as I can do, and make sure to never discriminate against people myself-yes, obviously, there are business practices merely good for business, but I largely don't believe in them, and I never expected to be in such a field anyway.
More like an author, who can be eccentric, as well as a commentator/journalist. I'm aware this is traditionally considered a rather professional scene, but considering it's for the field of professional wrestling I think I'll be fine.
In the meantime, I'll be sure to take it out for interviews and while at work-it's not like it's dermal.
Noemon XD I'm glad they don't give tattoos to fourteen-year-olds for this very reason.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
Hi dabbler!
-----
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.
I lol'd, srsly.
-----
Regarding the original topic, I think it depends a lot on where you live. I've been living in San Francisco for the last three and a half years, and body mods have gotten much more normal to my eyes. The girl I'm dating has a couple of visible tattoos, which would've been a big deal before I moved here, but now isn't at all. I used to work for a startup (I'm, uh, between assignments now) and there was little if any correlation between how professional my coworkers looked and whether they had visible tattoos or gauged ears. In other words, in an environment where body mods are fairly common, the appearance of professionalism and respectability depend primarily on other cues (good grooming, good posture, assertiveness, etc.). Of course, if you're in a more conservative place or profession, it can still be very limiting.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Reading this thread makes me think that some people just need to get out more.
Its just some metal and ink. In a way, it just scars. Lots of people have scars or differences in their appearance and we don't discriminate against them. But because its a choice, its perfectly acceptable to declare it negative or gross or unappealing.
I just don't understand. I used to feel cautious around piercings or tattoos. Then I made the effort to talk to some people with body mods. I love my part-time job because we're allowed to have weird hair color, forearm tattoos, facial piercings, or dress as we like as long as we wear closed-toe shoes and cover all the important bits. Its nice to work in an environment, especially such a big chain, where we're judged on the service we provide not our appearance. And its nice that our diverse appearances make it a comfortable environment for all people and perhaps challenges those who judge people negatively for piercings and tattoos.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: But because its a choice, its perfectly acceptable to declare it negative or gross or unappealing.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
No one is going to say, "You know, you should have avoided getting sliced with that knife. What an ugly scar!" or, "Why would you go and get burned like that? Colloid scars are so unattractive!" But when it's a choice, why shouldn't people consider it unappealing? Especially if someone asked for feedback.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
And some people choose to get bad dye jobs, wear excessive facial hair, become overweight for reasons excluding medical, etc.
Personally, I don't have a problem with people finding certain chosen physical trait unattractive. But you don't find too many people who can control the negative thought in their head and it often spills over into discriminatory behavior. People can be as close-minded as as judgmental as they want, but I don't understand why this mindset and discrimination is acceptable. There are few things in this world that AREN'T under our control and it seems like a waste of time ranking which modifications are bigger offenses.
Why can't people just get over it? Everyone's got something about them that make them unattractive in someone's eye.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: There are few things in this world that AREN'T under our control
If you think most things in your life are under your control, there is little I can do to shatter that illusion.
No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight. Excessive facial hair is a matter of taste, but (outside of academia ) I would expect it to limit job opportunities as well.
Permanent bodily mutilation will as well.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Lots of people have scars or differences in their appearance and we don't discriminate against them.
Sure we do. Pretty people/tall people/thin people get better, higher paying jobs than ugly, short, or fat people. Happens all the time.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: This really reminds me of the modesty discussion.
If all you can think about when talking to someone with a piercing is the piercing, then maybe you should work on changing that.
When "someone" is a person with a facial piercing, and "you" is someone interviewing for a job "someone" wants, I don't think they "have" to do anything. When you're conducting interviews and several, possibly even dozens of applicants are vying for the same job, a bad first impression can kill your chances. In non-work related public situations, human beings tend to be polite and not stare or try think that it's a big deal, but those situations don't seem to be what very many in this thread is referring to. Vyrus's father specifically referred to missed opportunities (academic, employment, etc) that would come with a facial piercing. Wrong or right, whoever has the power to open doors or give out opportunities has the power to dictate what they want in a candidate. If what they want is someone without stigmatized body mods, that's their prerogative. If it's wrong, then YOU build a successful business/university where you hire/admit whoever you want, but saying that *they* should just change their biases is silly and a little bit naive.
I remember hearing when I was about 17 that someone got an eyebrow piercing and ended up with a permanent facial twitch. Probably an urban legend, but I can't help thinking about it whenever someone talks about it.
I think it's funny that you're responding to something I didn't actually say. Obviously going to job interviews with a facial piercing is a bad idea because you don't know what prejudices or biases or appearance requirements the interviewer is going to have. I do think that people should work to change their biases against body piercings, though. And I don't mean thinking their unattractive. I mean assuming negative personality traits based on the fact that a person has a nose or eyebrow piercing.
I think that because of the demographics on Hatrack, people here are more inclined to feel negatively about piercings than the general population in at the places I've been. Nose piercings are practically mainstream now, and earlier today I was waited on by a girl at Papa John's with two lip piercings.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"Nose piercings are practically mainstream now, and earlier today I was waited on by a girl at Papa John's with two lip piercings."
Let us know when she's servicing investment accounts. Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was. I've still met people who say long hair limits job options, but I've had long hair since I was a kid and it's never hindered me in the slightest.
It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy. Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
"More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards,"
It sounds to me like your already assuming the worst of people, and deciding to go against the "standards" in some kind of rebellion.
Oh goodness, I'm only nineteen and I feel like your trying to dress up your teenage rebellion with big words and philosophies, when in reality all it is is that you want to be different.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Looks like you're assuming more than she is.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:If you think most things in your life are under your control, there is little I can do to shatter that illusion.
I used to have this terrible fixation on doing what I was supposed to. Every other verb out of my mouth was "should" or "must" or "have to." I have a couple of close people who know how to wrangle me in with a game of "what if."
Me: I HAVE to go to work. Them: What if you didn't? Me: I would lose my job? Them: What if you did? Me: I wouldn't be able to pay my bills? Them: What if you didn't? Me: I'd have to live in a cardboard box and eat garbage.
And so on and so forth. The point was that you could probably survive but maybe not to the standard that you want. Everything is a choice. I choose not to live in a cardboard box. I can choose whether or not I hate my job. Etc.
People have so many choices, opportunities, and control over their lives. Most people I see have some form of body modification be it dyed hair or suntans.
quote:No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight. Excessive facial hair is a matter of taste, but (outside of academia [Wink] ) I would expect it to limit job opportunities as well.
Lots of people think their hair looks great but I know I'm not a fan of artificial highlights. Should I just assume that what I think is a poor hair style choice means that they aren't responsible, hard-working people? I spent most of last week listening to several coworkers who have health conditions that require that they lose weight and yet they flat out said they don't want to diet and exercise. Its their choice. Should I judge them as have poor priorities? If someone knew this about them and chose not to hire them, they'd be missing out on some incredible workers.
quote:Permanent bodily mutilation will as well.
Not if they don't show off their mods. Personally, it seems like a waste to get a major piercing that constantly has to be removed but the point is they are removable and can still be enjoyed on weekends. With the exception of face tattoos, all others can be hid with clothing.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was...
It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy.
QFT.
You'd be fine in most jobs in NorCal - any startup worth working for wouldn't blink twice. Really, any startup anywhere worth working for wouldn't care much. I'm rather surprised at the hostility expressed here, since you wouldn't be blinked at in the metro areas I've lived in on either coast. Really, the only jobs (in the areas where I've lived) where having a discrete eyebrow piercings would hurt you are the ones where you have to wear a suit or serve stuffy customers. I see it as a very "normal" mod - it's pretty common. No more odd than a streak of pink or purple hair.
And I'd be surprised if most of the people hear expressing disapproval would even notice the holes if you removed the piercing, unless your eyebrows are rather sparse. It's a good choice for a discrete piercing. And it can be quite attractive on the right face (totally not mine though).
Personal history (for biases): I work as an analyst at a mid-sized consulting firm with a bunch of engineers & economists in metro DC. My husband works in product management at a large tech firm. We both have coworkers with visible tattoos or piercings. At the startup he last worked for there was a developer with many facial piercings - and he was valued as one of their best programmers.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
I have no problem with her getting any body piercings and wouldn't think twice about it. I have a problem with the motivation she has chosen to identify as her reasoning for doing it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: People have so many choices, opportunities, and control over their lives.
Yup.
Until they are: laid off; hit by a careless driver; caught in a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, wildfire, flood, or other "act of God"; affected by the depressed stock market; killed by salmonella-laden peanut butter . . .
quote: I spent most of last week listening to several coworkers who have health conditions that require that they lose weight and yet they flat out said they don't want to diet and exercise. Its their choice. Should I judge them as have poor priorities?
I think you just made it pretty clear that is exactly what you're doing.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Or not. I was just reporting the conversation and offering one interpretation. But I know these women and I know about their lives and their devotion to their families (most of whom are single bread-winners for disabled or laid-off husbands.) Maybe they should exercise because that's what their doctors told them. I care about them and wish they could have perfect lives where diet and exercise would be easy and they could live long, healthy lives. But that just doesn't happen. I'm sure many of them look at me and wish I didn't have tattoos but they don't know my story and the comfort that my tattoos give me in moments of crisis.
I don't assume lazy because they're overweight. And I wouldn't want someone to look at my tattoos and think slacker or rebel.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Shanna, for what it's worth, I agree with everything you've said in this thread. Especially the things about choices. Yes, you can't always control what life throws at you - although I'm with Seneca & Jefferson on luck - but you can control how you react to what you get, and that's what ends up mattering in the end.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Nose studs can be pretty great. Small eyebrow piercings are okay. Lip rings are meh and get in the way. Light amounts of body mods that work with your facial structure are fine. Intense body mods (e.g. anything close to idolizing the bme pain olympics) are as far as I'm concerned a sign of one being crazy.
I live in a place where people could honestly care less if you have some tasteful piercings in your face. I also tend to think they can be shway and I've gone on several dates with girls that had face piercings I liked. My own advice (purely on aesthetic matters) is to keep them small and avoid rings in favor of studs and stuff.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Meanwhile, I have a friend who does computer security for the state whose boss aproved his request for an eyebrow piercing (they're not specifically covered by state dress code) because it would make him less able to get a job elsewhere.
It comes back to choices. If getting the eyebrow ring is worth more to you than having the option of interviewing somewhere that doesn't allow them during the initial healing phase when you can't take it out, then get one for your birthday. Just don't assume that the only place you could ever be happy working is somewhere that lets you have piercings. Keep your options open.
Posted by Vyrus (Member # 10525) on :
quote:originally posted by rivka: No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight.
Bad dye job, I agree with-but people can choose to get haircuts with colors/styles that one normally would equate with "normalcy".
Yes, there are people with thyroid problems. There are people with other genetic disorders and ones that are biologically inclined to be larger.
However, being fat is just as much a choice as any other-now, don't get me wrong, I doubt people set out and think "How much weight can I gain today?" But if they lead a lifestyle that fosters this, like never working out ad burying their feelings into a box of chocolates, they're living just as much as a choice as anyone who ever watched their weight, or put on make up, or got a tattoo, or put on a pair of clothes.
Still don't think they should be discriminated against by any means, but body image, to a certain extent is a personal choice.
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was. I've still met people who say long hair limits job options, but I've had long hair since I was a kid and it's never hindered me in the slightest.
It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy.
I've been wanting to use that smiley for a very long time.
quote:Originally posted by Lanfear: "More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards,"
It sounds to me like your already assuming the worst of people, and deciding to go against the "standards" in some kind of rebellion.
Oh goodness, I'm only nineteen and I feel like your trying to dress up your teenage rebellion with big words and philosophies, when in reality all it is is that you want to be different.
I'm not trying to dress up anything-I'm just trying to put a reason behind my actions so as to make more sense than the average "rebellious teenager."
And, so we're on the same page, how do you define rebellion?
And I didn't want to be *different*, I wanted to be *me*.
And I'm unique in my own way, just like everyone here is different from everybody else.
And your "different" comment contradicts your "just like every other punkgoth kid" comment.
quote:originally posted by Lanfear "I have no problem with her getting any body piercings and wouldn't think twice about it. I have a problem with the motivation she has chosen to identify as her reasoning for doing it. "
Does it matter my reasoning, if it's my choice? Besides this, many of your points I find flawed and inaccurate, based largely on assumptions.
As for others:
Eyebrows take a relatively short time to heal, and if I did get a job it wouldn't be during time of recuperation.
And there's still the matter of my father
But I'll not do anything stupid behind his back.
And there's no saying he won't change his mind-I used to be not allowed to stay up past eleven-when I'm a senior next year, or over summer, whose to say he won't lighten up? It's not like it's something I'm dying over.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vyrus: Noemon XD I'm glad they don't give tattoos to fourteen-year-olds for this very reason.
:: nods :: It's a wise move on society's part, that's for sure.
Add my voice, by the way, to those who don't think that an eyebrow piercing is likely to particularly slow you down later in life. I have no idea what you're planning to do with your life, much less what you'll actually end up doing (this from the guy with a Classics BA and an MA in Teaching ESL who has been doing computery stuff for the past decade--no slight intended), but even now a single eyebrow, nose, lip, or tongue piercing is unlikely to be an insurmountable hurdle in IT, engineering, or the arts (picked because I know people with said piercings in those fields) in SW Ohio, the area I've been living in for the past six years. As time wears on the sort of body mod you're contemplating will only become more mainstream; by the time you're out of college and diving into the job market what stigma there still is will be dramatically less severe than it is even now.
I'm curious now (and forgive me if you included it in an earlier post and I missed it; I'm reading on the job, so I occasionally get distracted by, you know, work, and pay posts less attention than they deserve)--what are you planning to do once you get out of school?
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.
I lol'd, srsly.
Looking back at who I've been over the years, I think that the only element of my personality that's been more of a constant than my love of SF has been my dedication to The Funny. I have no doubt that there are more than a few alternate universes in which other-me is running around with his ass emblazoned with twin Yosemite Sams.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:by the time you're out of college and diving into the job market what stigma there still is will be dramatically less severe than it is even now.
Assuming of course, that society continues to shift in approximately the same direction and speed that it's shifting now.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sure. But I think that that's a fairly safe assumption.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Safe as houses.
Even if something has a low chance of happening (like real estate losing value, for instance), if it could seriously affect your future, it's worth considering.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
OK, (most) everyone:
DISCREET: unobtrusive, modest
As in, for example, a discreet piercing.
DISCRETE: detached
As in discrete math.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Safe as houses.
Even if something has a low chance of happening (like real estate losing value, for instance), if it could seriously affect your future, it's worth considering.
It's always a good thing to consider the possibilities, and if she were contemplating getting her tongue bisected, or having the sclerea of her eyes tattooed, I probably wouldn't give the same advice*. What she's interested in doing, though, is something that is relatively unnoticable if the jewelry isn't in place, and which will heal if the jewelry is left out for an extended period of time. Depending on where on her eyebrow she were to get the thing, it's possible that the only sign that it was ever there would be a slight irregularity in the pattern of her eyebrow hairs.
*Note that my advice here isn't "run out and get that piercing". She respects her dad's wishes in this, and I think that that's a good thing. When she's no longer a minor, though, and has the freedom to make this choice for herself, I don't think that she'll be doing damage to her future selves by getting this piercing.
[Edited to add the asterisked bit]
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Depending on career choice, I think it could matter. I know my sister's career would have been hurt by that choice, not sure about mine (since I am still a grad student). To be fair, my sister has been in very professional jobs for a while. She once got clothing bonus. I don't think they even have casual Fridays were she is now.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Sure, Noemon. Also note that I wasn't saying she shouldn't get it or that it would ruin her life.
I guess my post was somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to the implied "If present trends continue..." of your post.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I figured as much. It's just that blathering on is my kneejerk response.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It's just that blathering on is my kneejerk response.
Shvester!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
O_o
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Eyebrow piercings won't be a problem for you, because you can take them out for job interviews. (Note: wearing them to a job interview would be a mistake.) What you don't want to do is something that you can't remove.
I was going to say something similar. In future years (and depending on your future profession) you're going to want to present a certain image. If you're planning to work in the corporate scene,for example, you won't want to have something so obvious as a pierced brow, and taking it out every day for business functions could just get annoying. At least, it'd annoy me.
I'm 28 now, but about ten years ago I was a college freshman and made it a point to go out on my 18th birthday (I was still 17 for the first two months of college) to get my cartilage pierced. My parents had refused to let me. It was half an act of rebellion and half because I'd always wanted it. Well, while I do have two piercings up there still and work as a paralegal in a fairly large law firm, I try to keep them as nonobstrusive as possible. I still want to be my own person/have my own style, but I also have to consider a professional appearance.
I can understand your desire to express yourself, and I hate to say it, but one of the things that is popular now IS the look you've described, or at least something akin to it. 'In my day' (bit of self-mocking there) the ratio of teens and those in the low 20's dressed in an edgy fashion to those sporting Gap, Abercrombie, Old Navy, etc., etc., etc. was far from balanced, and I notice a significantly greater number of teens now dressing edgy (my word choice). That said, what you wear does say something about the person you are. Perhaps instead of wearing a pencil skirt every day to work, my choice to wear a wrap skirt will give off a different (yet still professional) vibe. I've had conversations about this with coworkers who do wear a button-down shirt and slacks every day, and while we'll both agree the other looks nice and perfectly acceptable, we also accept that we wouldn't necessarily 'fit' the clothing choice of the other person. It's funny.
Anyhow, all that is to say that you've got a lot to consider, piercings or clothing or whatever. You send out signals with those things whether you like it or not. One day, you might find that your current attire doesn't work for your profession. That happened to me. I had to retire a lot of thrift store t-shirts and sweaters and such because they just wouldn't do for where life had dropped me. (I also ran out of drawer space when the new clothes moved in.) If you ever find that is the case, don't let yourself think you have to give up your individuality. Instead, let your image evolve and mature. You don't need piercings or tatoos necessarily to stay true to yourself.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Just for the record, were I the type to dobie, which I most decidedly am not, I would long since have created a thread entitled "Do body molds still hold the same stigma", which would contain a link to some site talking about candida.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
ewwwwwwww!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, dobies really are repulsive. We're all lucky I'm not the type to create them.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thank you, I've always felt very fortunate to have such a good father, and I hope to be as accepting and wise and caring if I ever have children one day. My sister is like that with her child-she's an occasional hatracker; if I could remember her name, I'd post it [it's been a while since she's been on, however.]![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
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