Long story short my father appears to have a network program that either shows what I am doing or show my screens without asking for my permission, either he installed something on my computer when I was away. I'm assuming for now that its merely a program being used over the network, so I need to find ways of making sure he can't use it to look at my computer again.
So far I've changed my workgroup, turned off network discovery. Any other suggestions?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
All honesty: I suggest talking to your Dad about it.
Hobbes Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Think this is what interferes with your browsing? (Seems not unlikely.)
His house, his internet connection...right?
If you paid for your own computer then it's not right for him to install programs on it without your permission, but monitoring the network activity seems like it's within his rights. I can certainly understand and sympathize with you if you're finding this cause for embarrassment, though.
You could always stop doing whatever it is you don't want your Dad to see, and move out again ASAP.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
It didnt go very well. Hes refusing to drive me to my College if I keep asking about it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Yeah: stop doing whatever it is you don't want your Dad to see, and move out again ASAP.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Can he see this thread?
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
I never understood these type of programs. What kind of relationship can you have with a father doing that to you.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Well, it is a good thing we're not talking about your 500$ a month pot habit in a place where he can see it.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Kirk Cameron knows how you can keep your dad from spying.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
The only thing I know that might work is using a boot-disk to load a new OS
Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed: Kirk Cameron knows how you can keep your dad from spying.
That has waaaaaaaaay too much similarity to the Chareidi/Jewish Ultra-Orthodox way of viewing the world. Are there Christian groups that do not allow members to own or have access to computers/the internet and TV?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Yeah, like the Amish.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm surprised you don't have at least a password prompt before being able to log onto your computer.
Little late now, but if you get your computer unenmeshed, that might be a good idea.
If he's paying for the internet service though, I don't think you really have a decent argument against him, though if he tampered with a computer you bought, that's out of bounds (under some circumstances).
I agree with others; time to move out again.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I know this has been told to you before on many different threads. Live under his roof, live by his rules. And that includes a limited or nonexistent expectation of privacy. If you don't like it, get out.
And yes, I did abide by that law when I was living with my parents as well, including when the kids and I moved back home because I couldn't afford to live on our own. Curfew, check-in phone calls, required to run errands for parents, etc. If I were to move back in tomorrow - which is a very real possibility with this economy and my being unemployed - I would still have that same expectation. Even at double your age.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by adenam:
quote:Originally posted by Speed: Kirk Cameron knows how you can keep your dad from spying.
That has waaaaaaaaay too much similarity to the Chareidi/Jewish Ultra-Orthodox way of viewing the world. Are there Christian groups that do not allow members to own or have access to computers/the internet and TV?
I actually am noheg hilchos yichud with the internet. I have a buddy who gets a weekly report on my internet activity. He can't read chats and emails but he can see where I've been. Covenanteyes.com
Posted by adenam (Member # 11902) on :
Covenanteyes actually seems like a sane way to deal with the dangers of the internet.
Hurrah for not going crazy!
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
He teases me for spending so much time on Hatrack! ;-)
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
If your father has some software installed on your computer, it is not that hard to stop or uninstall it. I'm not going to tell you how, but anyone with even a basic knowledge of computers should be able to do it.
However, if the software is on your home network, rather than your personal computer, there is not much you can do about it, other than not use that network.
If you have your own phone line, you can get your own Internet account that doesn't use the home network. In many cases, there are ways to use your cell phone connected to your computer to access the internet.
But, if it is his house, his network, his phone line, his internet account, and he is paying the bills, including college, then he does have some right to know what is happening.
You may no like it, but you are deluded if you think the world exists for the sole purpose of pleasing you. We all deal with things we don't like out here in this thing we refer to as 'Real Life'.
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Personally, I don't think it's acceptable of him to be spying on your personal life in that way, if indeed he is, even though it is his pipes and all. Unless of course there have been some major related breaches of trust in the past.
But the proper response to this sort of violation is to move the hell out. Even if he doesn't have the moral right (a subjective matter) he certainly has the capability and willingness to use it. Again, excepting some major trust issues (which would put you on a sort of parole situation), you simply shouldn't be willing to tolerate it, and act accordingly.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'll second Rakeesh's post.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Personally, I don't think it's acceptable of him to be spying on your personal life in that way, if indeed he is, even though it is his pipes and all. Unless of course there have been some major related breaches of trust in the past.
I have a rather strong suspicion that Blayne's dad has legitimate concerns about his son's internet and computer addiction. With Blayne, you never really see the full picture. His parents sound like they suck, but on the other hand, how much confidence has he inspired in his decision making abilities here?
And you have to remember, Blayne is now back with his parents after having been unable to sustain himself in his other living situation. I don't know Blayne's parents, but I think any parent would be right to be concerned about his activities, especially considering his age and maturity level.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Not quite sustain, I moved out because there was an unacceptable risk of my stuff getting stolen, I actually had the full ability to continue paying my rent I just could not find a decent place at the time.
As for trust issues does sneaking food during a diet count as breaking trust? Thats essentially the crux of the matter I've actually been getting decent grades this semester so he doesnt have the "Your doing terrible in school" argument. The way they act its like I was caught peddling drugs, to preschool to children, on a sunday, to catholics, for inflating prices.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes, it's awful. You should move out.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Blayne, someday, I hope you will know why your father acts the way he does.
In the mean time, to help you get that perspective (too me a few years of living away from my mom to get it) I advise what everyone else has: move out.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Living in a situation that isn't safe, and not being able to find another place or pay for it.
Yep....that's pretty much the definition of being "unable to sustain" living away from home.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
If Blayne is using his dad's network, then it is reasonable for him to expect to keep an eye on how Blayne is using it - particularly if there is some concern about excessive internet use. My impression is that this sort of "spying" is not completely unusual among parents and employers. Having said that, he definitely should have told Blayne beforehand rather than do it secretly, and it sounds like the method Blayne is describing is overly intrusive and goes needlessly beyond "keeping an eye on".
I'd think the solution is... use the computer less, and only for things you are okay with your dad being aware of. I'd also complain, which it sounds like you did, and suggest a less intrusive way of his keeping tabs on you - depending on what sort of reasons he's given for needing to do it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Blayne: I agree with those saying to move out. This time why not actually do some research beforehand? Look up student housing and private apartments, it can actually be fun finding a fantastic location with a reasonable price. Perhaps you would prefer your own studio apartment, if you can't summon some friends to go in on a shared apartment with.
I love my parents to death, but even I have to admit that were I living with them there would be things like chores, less privacy, less freedom, that I would have to accept. It sounds like you do not wish to put up with your father looking in on what you do. If you can't handle it, then you need to get back out on your own. I know it's frustrating that your last foray out into the real world ended with alot of your stuff getting taken. Not every neighborhood is going to be like that though.
Do some research, find a complex near your school that looks like a good package and find rooms with contract vacancies. When you've got a few written down why not visit the apartment and get to know your potential roommates. You might find one where the guys are nice but never home, or you might luck out and find a group of 4 guys who play D&D together and they need one more. You never know what sorts of awesome people you might meet in college.
I was fairly certain when you said you were moving back in with your parents that you'd be unhappy, I don't think that's going to change, I'd bet that you'd be much happier finding your own place, finding a solid part time job so you have some money of your own, and paying your own bills. I know it helped me a whole lot.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I know as per my Concordia thread im looking into student housing this weekend. I need to live eitherf Layola campus or the downtown one.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I actually am noheg hilchos yichud with the internet. I have a buddy who gets a weekly report on my internet activity. He can't read chats and emails but he can see where I've been. Covenanteyes.com
Are you implying that you want me to email you some pornography? Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Not quite sustain, I moved out because there was an unacceptable risk of my stuff getting stolen, I actually had the full ability to continue paying my rent I just could not find a decent place at the time.
Tomato, Tomahto. You couldn't handle living on your own.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think he could, but that it didn't work out last time. At least he was smart enough to get out of a bad situation rather than sticking with it because of pride.
I know that if I had been able to accept the help my parents had offered me when I got out of the Army, I'd already have my nursing degree and would probably be working on my Masters in Nursing by now. Sometimes taking a sept back IS the right thing to do, even though it woulds your pride.
I don't regret my choices, even though they made my road a lot tougher.....I needed to do it that way to become the person I am today. However, I also needed to be able to learn to ask for help, because there are a lot of things in this world, some of which are very important, that you cannot do all alone.
It can be a delicate balance.......asking for help but not demanding it. My parents offered to help me when I lost my job so I could go back to school, and I accepted....but when I qualified for financial aid I offered to pay them back right away too.
As hard as it was to accept their help, I think I'd have been a lot more of a failure if I had NOT accepted it and then not been able to register for classes.
Blayne, not every roommate is an idiot like your last one. But YOU have to lock your gear up, and make sure YOU take responsibility for things going missing if you don't. If you expect a different result this time around, do things differently yourself.
The rest will follow.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
quote:Originally posted by Armoth: I actually am noheg hilchos yichud with the internet. I have a buddy who gets a weekly report on my internet activity. He can't read chats and emails but he can see where I've been. Covenanteyes.com
Are you implying that you want me to email you some pornography?
Done! Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Tomato, Tomahto. You couldn't handle living on your own.
It seems pretty strange, bordering on ridiculous, to assert that someone can't 'handle living on their own' because they get away from a situation where their stuff is getting stolen.
Granted, I don't know how much of what Blayne is saying is accurate, but as described I can't fault him for it.
Having a half-dozen threads up on the top of the front page, though...
Anyway, Orincoro, do you post anything other than personal insults towards other posters, or is it just a coincidence of the threads I'm participating in?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
It's a coincidence... jackass.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wow, zing! Unfortunately, you're just as wrong after that very clever zing as you were before it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I was just trying to be funny- and besides, I'm right in this situation anyway. Blayne couldn't handle living on his own, in that living on your own means choosing reliable people to live with, a livable neighborhood, etc. Living on your own also means getting out of bad situations when you find yourself in them, but running back to the parents' house indicates a certain lack of planning, foresight, and flexibility. It's sometimes the best choice for sure, but to stop living on your own for lack of choice indicates to me that you are not handling living on your own. Could still be a good decision to move home, but clearly Blayne didn't really have it together in the first place, or perhaps this wouldn't have happened. Given the particulars of Blayne's situation, I think this is (from the perspective of his parents certainly) mostly his fault. From his perspective, he's a victim, and I sympathize with him for that, because I've been in bad situations too, but I also know that I was responsible for putting myself in them, and I learned from them, and became better able to fend for myself. You don't do him any favors by pretending he's not who he is. He's not really mature enough to handle living on his own- he'll get there, but let's not ignore the obvious.
Feel free to disagree with me on this, I'm just looking at the total Blayne picture I've gotten over the last few years: posts about abusive parents and friends, the need to have his own computer, the posts about paying for the computer, the military, the jobs, school, the accidental damage caused to the computer, moving into a new place, being robbed in strange circumstances, continuing to live in the same place, and being robbed again, and being shocked by it, the latest computer troubles, moving back with the parents, the posts about intrusive parents... it has had a kind of a circular quality to it over time. Blayne wants something, he obsesses about it, he demands the perfect execution of his vision, he refuses to compromise despite advice that his plans are too ambitious, or crazy, he works out rationalizations of every detail of a situation so that it will look like he should get what he wants, he screws something up, he tries to shift the blame, he accepts it, and then he moves on to the next plan. He's actually not much different from any of us, except for his incredible willingness to share the process with others.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I was just trying to be funny- and besides, I'm right in every situation anyway.
Fixed that for you. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Orincoro,
I didn't think you were being serious.
quote:Blayne couldn't handle living on his own, in that living on your own means choosing reliable people to live with, a livable neighborhood, etc. Living on your own also means getting out of bad situations when you find yourself in them, but running back to the parents' house indicates a certain lack of planning, foresight, and flexibility.
Well, look, if a person can be judged by their posting style and by the content of their posts on an Internet discussion board, I tend to think you're probably more right about Blayne than wrong in this discussion. But I don't think it's very productive to judge people on that basis on anything other than their opinions.
Anyway, I'll take this one at a time:
1. Living on your own means choosing reliable people to live with.
Well, sometimes folks aren't nearly as reliable later as they appeared at first, even to thoroughly prepared, intelligent, and mature people. Sometimes people are really good liars, for example.
2. A livable neighborhood.
Not everyone, unfortunately, has the means to choose a gated well-policed community.
3. 'running back to the parents' house'
How many moves is a person supposed to be prepared and capable of making if the first one goes sour, exactly?
quote:From his perspective, he's a victim, and I sympathize with him for that...
You do? Coulda fooled me, and I suspect others.
quote:...but I also know that I was responsible for putting myself in them, and I learned from them, and became better able to fend for myself. You don't do him any favors by pretending he's not who he is. He's not really mature enough to handle living on his own- he'll get there, but let's not ignore the obvious.
First off, 'do him any favors'? Let's be real here: few things random strangers online say are going to have any significant impact, for better or worse, with most people. And it's just my personal opinion, but it seems to me few people have made much of an impact on Blayne anyway-so your suggestion that you're harsh to do some good rings a little false to me.
Second, I don't know how Blayne feels with regards to how things ended up in his first move. And to be honest, I'm not really interested in knowing either. But my question for you is: do you know? Maybe he does recognize mistakes he made in his first situation. I dunno. Have you asked?
Long story short, your tone in this thread - speaking strictly for myself - doesn't really resonate with firm-but-helpful altruistic impulse. Others are free to agree or disagree as they like, but that tone more than anything is what I was taking the most issue with.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I was just trying to be funny- and besides, I'm right in every situation anyway.
Fixed that for you.
Exactly. Finally, someone understands me.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote: Long story short, your tone in this thread - speaking strictly for myself - doesn't really resonate with firm-but-helpful altruistic impulse. Others are free to agree or disagree as they like, but that tone more than anything is what I was taking the most issue with.
First, yes I really do sympathize. I've been there, though I've probably made better choices and had more supportive parents than Blayne does. I think, though he doesn't often admit it, that he does recognize his mistakes, and his constant self-justify and hair splitting in countless similar situations shows that he's working hard to avoid the blame he knows is his. Just my opinion from the cheap seats.
Second, never did I suggest that I believed I was helping Blayne. I just said you're not doing him any favors. I am fully aware he rarely if ever takes to heart, or learns from what people here have to say in any given situation. And yet, though maybe for the sake of pride he doesn't do what we think he should today, the next time he might do it differently. I have no faith in that idea, but I consider it a possibility.
I could give a crap what you think about my tone. You're not on the top of my list of people to impress. But I do get a little annoyed at having words put in my mouth- I have never believed that anything I could say would make Blayne change his mind about anything. If you want to carp about the uselessness of interacting with anyone online about anything, then I'm a little surprised you would bother trying to correct my behavior, since you are clearly unable to change it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: Second, never did I suggest that I believed I was helping Blayne. I just said you're not doing him any favors.
*shrug* Guess it's just my own interpretation of the phrase 'not doing any favors'. To me it implies a criticism, not just a statement of things as they are.
quote:I could give a crap what you think about my tone. You're not on the top of my list of people to impress.
Burn!
I never imagined I was, or even that I should be. I was responding to a (mistaken) belief that you were being harsh out of a helpful impulse, as I described above.
But it seems you're just being critical, unhelpful, and insulting because it's Blayne. Well, that's of course up to you, and goodness knows I've been that way towards him as well in the past. Though I hope I at least attempted to offer helpful advice as opposed to well-merited criticism and scorn, which in this thread at least boils down to, "Look folks, this is Blayne we're talking about here."
ETA:
quote:But I do get a little annoyed at having words put in my mouth- I have never believed that anything I could say would make Blayne change his mind about anything.
I addressed this above. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was addressing a mistaken belief based on my interpretation of a phrase 'doing him favors'.
quote:If you want to carp about the uselessness of interacting with anyone online about anything, then I'm a little surprised you would bother trying to correct my behavior, since you are clearly unable to change it.
I wasn't 'carping about the uselessness' of anything. Though I do wonder, if you're so certain what you say won't be helpful...why did you post at all?
Anyway, do you have a response to any of the other points I made, or would you rather just reiterate independent you are?
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
Maybe your dad just doesn't where to find good porn and is counting on your help.
No, but seriously, is he really such a prude that he cares what you're doing online? Is he a politician? Do you have a history or something? If you're old enough to be in college, then he needs to treat you like a man. I don't care if it's his house and internet or not; this is about respect, not privacy.
If it were me, I would put something up on that screen to REALLY get his attention, and I would do it constantly, and I would make sure he knows that I'm doing it just because he's watching. I'm actually not altogether sure what my retribution would be, but it would be caustic and immediate.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote: But it seems you're just being critical, unhelpful, and insulting because it's Blayne.
I'm sorry, is there no dimmer switch on intent here? I clearly said I thought it was possible that something I said might change Blayne's thinking in the future. I said that it was not an idea I have faith in, but a possibility. That's what I said. I gave you exactly the reasoning I use when posting anything to Blayne. I spelled it out very, very clearly.
(Edited The last two sentences. I'll email them to you if you like- you can be assured they were not friendly )
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
[Hi Orincoro ]
And while I'm here again: best of luck whatever you end up doing Blayne.
Hobbes Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: If it were me, I would put something up on that screen to REALLY get his attention, and I would do it constantly, and I would make sure he knows that I'm doing it just because he's watching. I'm actually not altogether sure what my retribution would be, but it would be caustic and immediate.
So your plan would be to find a passive-aggressive way of agitating the man who owns the house Blayne's living in. So you're one of these people who leave snippy notes in the office kitchen addressed to: "whoever has been using my mustard...?" What's it like to be that way? More importantly, does it actually yield good results?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:who leave snippy notes in the office kitchen addressed to: "whoever has been using my mustard...?"
"..I hate little notes on my pillow. 'We're all out of Corn Flakes - FU', it took me three hours to realize 'FU' stood for Felix Unger".
Hobbes Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
:snort:
I really despise the practice of leaving snippy notes. It's probably one of the easiest/most cowardly things you can do in your normal day-to-day life, and of course, it never accomplishes the goal it supposedly intends without sacrificing mutual respect. But then, I've often thought that the real purpose of a passive aggressive note was to make sure that the conflict doesn't ever go away.
(I realize the irony of that statement, btw. I think posting here is slightly different though.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You know, it;s not like I am Blayne's biggest fan, but even I thought your comments weren't exactaly fair, Ori.
Blayne is young, and part of that is making mistakes. If he learns from them they were worth it.....even if 100 strangers on the internet told him how wrong he was BEFORE he did these things.
I thin that rather than being a mistake, his moving back into his parents house was the right thing to do DESPITE the fact that some people would call it quitting or taking the easy way out. It allowed him to save some cash and try again, hopefully learning from his mistakes.
If he doesn't it's all good to me as well.....he isn't MY kid, or someone I have to deal with except by chioce. But while he doesn't come across well often, I think that he DID learn some things this time around, and that it will be better the next time though for him. I made different mistakes than he did, but I needed to make them mself to learn anything. Maybe YOU did,'t make these same mistakes, but as you said you had to learn for experience as well.
We ALL do, one way or another.
I'm STILL not signing up for EvE though. Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: So your plan would be to find a passive-aggressive way of agitating the man who owns the house Blayne's living in. So you're one of these people who leave snippy notes in the office kitchen addressed to: "whoever has been using my mustard...?" What's it like to be that way? More importantly, does it actually yield good results?
Oh, I don't resort to the passive-aggressive attacks until talking it out has already failed, which in this case, it has. When someone is unwilling to disclose their reasoning behind an action against me, it tells me that they don't think I'm capable of comprehending their motives, or that they know their motives are unreasonable.
If the former, then my typical course of action is to force a dialog by any means necessary, even if it starts as a confrontation. This at least might give me an opening to put my point of view into context. If the latter, then once again, dialog is necessary to prevent future incidents.
In any case, someone attempting to micro manage my life without explaining themselves because they think they know better is not acceptable. Not after 18 at least. If said person is unwilling to discuss the matter, then you have to do something. Running away from the problem by moving out and basically writing off your parents is not a good option IMO. I would prefer to make my point to them any way I have to so that, in the long run, I could maintain some sort of non-resentful relationship with them.
Does that explain it well enough?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Rakeesh,
quote: I clearly said I thought it was possible that something I said might change Blayne's thinking in the future.
Saying that you have no faith in something and then saying, "But it's possible," doesn't lend much credence to the suggestion that you're angling for the possibility rather than the near-certainty. I think you were pretty clear...but not the way you describe after the post, that's all. I just read it differently. And I don't think that's entirely the fault of my communication skills, either. Though you probably will disagree.
quote:(Edited The last two sentences. I'll email them to you if you like- you can be assured they were not friendly [Wink] )
Why not just say `em? It wouldn't exactly be out of left field, would it?
*wink!*
-------
quote:You know, it;s not like I am Blayne's biggest fan, but even I thought your comments weren't exactaly fair, Ori.
I should make clear that the same can be said of me. Hell, I'm sure Blayne would tell you himself that I'm not his biggest fan either.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:In any case, someone attempting to micro manage my life without explaining themselves because they think they know better is not acceptable. Not after 18 at least.
I would say that age is far less relevant to this determination than, say, whether or not you're living in your parents' house without paying rent.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
If one lives for free in someone else's home and use a service they provide, then they have a right to monitor usage of that service.
It's only reasonable.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Rakeesh,
quote: I clearly said I thought it was possible that something I said might change Blayne's thinking in the future.
Saying that you have no faith in something and then saying, "But it's possible," doesn't lend much credence to the suggestion that you're angling for the possibility rather than the near-certainty. I think you were pretty clear...but not the way you describe after the post, that's all. I just read it differently. And I don't think that's entirely the fault of my communication skills, either. Though you probably will disagree.
quote:(Edited The last two sentences. I'll email them to you if you like- you can be assured they were not friendly [Wink] )
Why not just say `em? It wouldn't exactly be out of left field, would it?
*wink!*
-------
quote:You know, it;s not like I am Blayne's biggest fan, but even I thought your comments weren't exactaly fair, Ori.
I should make clear that the same can be said of me. Hell, I'm sure Blayne would tell you himself that I'm not his biggest fan either.
I have the memory of a goldfish. So I'm not always positive of who is may or may not be my "biggest fan", I recall ClaudiaTheresa, Strangelove, Tante as supportive regardless.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't hate you or anything. I do get tired of rarely being able to read your posts, and the number of them at times.
But you have gotten better, at least some of the time. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I thin that rather than being a mistake, his moving back into his parents house was the right thing to do DESPITE the fact that some people would call it quitting or taking the easy way out. It allowed him to save some cash and try again, hopefully learning from his mistakes.
If he doesn't it's all good to me as well.....he isn't MY kid, or someone I have to deal with except by chioce. But while he doesn't come across well often, I think that he DID learn some things this time around, and that it will be better the next time though for him. I made different mistakes than he did, but I needed to make them mself to learn anything. Maybe YOU did,'t make these same mistakes, but as you said you had to learn for experience as well.
No, I agree with you- moving home was the right thing. I think moving out the way he did was probably a mistake, but then I don't know that he has had a lot of good choices to make in that regard. I have had similar experiences, and actually probably worse, and I've just been lucky enough to not have to run home yet, although I definitely did start living on my own before I was really ready to handle it. I'm just not a big fan of Blayne's rationalizations, when anyone here can see that a lot of what goes on in his life happens because he either ignores a problem intentionally, (idealistically believing that if something is not his direct responsibility, it should by rights have no effect on him whatsoever) or is not vigilant enough to preempt things before they happen.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't agree you should move out. It's just rearranging furniture (Not quite rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.) Whether it's your father or conditions in an apartment, you need to understand that your choices involve consequences and that other people have the same freedom to act as you do. You are not the one technicolor person in a world of black and white. I say this because I used to see the world somewhat like you do. Understanding that you are a special and unique human being can only really come when you understand that everyone is, including your father and any potential roommates you have.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It could be good, it could be bad.
Blayne, have you asked your dad about this yet? If you approach him respectfully you might be surprised.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I've noticed that nobody has asked Blayne if he has looked at sites that his father would not approve of under his roof in the past. Has trust even been established? Before anybody says it, I know "inappropriate sites" can have a wide definition, but it's the father's definition that matters.
Blayne, it seems that your father has a reason for this(logical or not), but have you ever given him cause for such actions?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I've noticed that nobody has asked Blayne if he has looked at sites that his father would not approve of under his roof in the past.
Dude's a young male Communist. It's inconceivable that he hasn't.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
From Blayne's professed interests, I'd wager that his father may have a right to be concerned merely at the amount of time he is spending online, or at the computer. Everyone has heard the scare stories about people addicted to the internet getting wrapped up in strange worlds of fantasy, getting in contact with cult leaders or criminal conspiracies- who knows what he thinks?
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:In any case, someone attempting to micro manage my life without explaining themselves because they think they know better is not acceptable. Not after 18 at least.
I would say that age is far less relevant to this determination than, say, whether or not you're living in your parents' house without paying rent.
I'm actually trying to argue two separate points here. The one you quoted is one of them, and quite possibly the less important.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: It didnt go very well. Hes refusing to drive me to my College if I keep asking about it.
This, I think, is the more important issue. It would appear that his father isn't even willing to discuss it. Granted, I don't know how Blayne approached the subject or what exactly was said, but if my parents treated me the way it appears (albeit, with very limited insight of the actual occurrence), it would almost certainly cause some sort of long term resentment.
Maybe this kind of relationship is normal with most people and their parents, but not me or mine. My parents give advice and give context to it. They don't just take charge and brush off my questions as though I'm a child continuously asking "Why?".
I would say it has to do with trust, both having it and helping to establish it further. At the same time, perhaps none of this applies to Blayne's situation, I'm just making assumptions based on the very little information I have.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The exact situation was that I was multitasking watching/listening the Daily Show and studying for my Windows Server 2003 exam,my father took issue with my multitasking and considered me listening to music during any kind of studying or homework alone "a grand gesture of compromise". I was using my headphones so its impossible he could have heard it, but he came down "hopping mad" at seemingly at random, even knowing which of my dual monitors it was playing on, and even said that my other monitor had virtually nothing happening on it.
Sure, I should have been focusing on my Windows Server book and the practice exam on my screen, but I find it extremely difficult to focus on anything non interactive for more then a few minutes at a time, so I watch/listen to something say the Daily Show to provide something as I'm studying, otherwise I end up fidgeting, getting suddenly sleepy and tired, to hungry/bored or bored/hungry and do a snack run, or end up pacing my room. Normal people I understand can focus on something for a few hours, I have great difficulty doing so.
It is to my mind understandable of a normal parent to take issue at first glance with me "not focusing 100%", but I am furious that without asking or informing me that he either on my computer (when I'm at school, as I have a corrupted bootloader so sometimes it wont start unless I repair my bootloader etc so its on 24/7) or on the network without informing me as it seems like he has something that is intrusive and is taking screenshots or recording or something of my computer (which I paid for) all in an effort to monitor my studying habits, which is another thing I take issue with as I'm not a drunkard drug addict who is failing, my grades this semester have been consistently decent.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Has he considered simply restricting the IPs to which your MAC is granted access? That'd solve a lot of his problems.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I could give a crap what you think about my tone. You're not on the top of my list of people to impress.
That's some stone cold not caring, orincoro.
stone cold. Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I could give a crap what you think about my tone. You're not on the top of my list of people to impress.
That's some stone cold not caring, orincoro.
stone cold.
Not so! You are apparently still SOMEWHERE on the list, which is saying SOMETHING!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I could give a crap what you think about my tone. You're not on the top of my list of people to impress.
That's some stone cold not caring, orincoro.
stone cold.
You, however, are slightly higher up on my list of people to impress.
If anyone wants the list, just ask.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: ...I find it extremely difficult to focus on anything non interactive for more then a few minutes at a time...
Out of curiosity, have you been evaluated for ADD? If so, is medication not an option for some reason?
Please don't think I'm going with the knee-jerk "Kid's got a problem, get him on Ritalin," response. I think we overuse the term to a frightening degree in America. But between your posting style and your study habits, I think you might have a legitimate chemical imbalance.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
How techy is your dad? Maybe he just has a nanny cam in your room. That sure would be a lot easier than a spy program.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It's also entirely possible that, given that this is Blayne we're talking about, he just came down at random expecting to find that his son was not concentrating on what he was supposed to be.
The solution to this seems pretty simple to me, Blayne. Get your head down and do your work. Have you taken the Windows Server exam yet? If you put the work in this time and pass it soon, I think you'll find your parents will be less intrusive.
Look, you're a frustrating guy. The picture I get from your descriptions of your home life is not that your parents are villains bent on controlling you, but that they are trying, maybe not as wisely or well as they could, to get you off the pretty bad path you've got yourself on.
If you grew up a lot and stopped looking to be the victim in every situation and instead started taking responsibility for your life, I think you'd have a much different and much more pleasant relationship with your parents.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Has he considered simply restricting the IPs to which your MAC is granted access? That'd solve a lot of his problems.
Considering the router is located approximately 5 feet from my computer I don't think that's an option tbh.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Why not? It's his router, right? He could put a password on it and lock you down immediately. That'd solve the problem instantly, and he wouldn't feel the need to monitor you anymore.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
What does the physical location of the router have to do with whether or not its possible to restrict your access?
Your parents seem to be genuinely concerned about you. Their methods may be flawed but I can't really fault their intent. They really should have established some clear rules when you moved back in the house. They should have said, you can move back in but we will monitor your computer activity, force you to stay on your diet, etc.
You are living in their house so they have the right to monitor you -- but they should be up front about it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Firstly, I'm more or less the network administrator, whenever things go wrong I'm the one they generally ask for help so it'ld be counter productive to lock out the NA from the router.
Secondly, all I need is a paper clip and a hairpin and I can reset the router to factory default settings which includes the password.
Thirdly, this isn't about what "sites" I may or may not be watching/reading/listening to when I'm studying, I could just as easily distract myself with the 9 seasons of Top Gear I haven't finished watching yet etc etc.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Blayne, have you actually listened to anyone in this thread? Not just read their posts, but considered what they were saying?
Your parent's don't OWE you ANYTHING. They are ALLOWING you to live off of them, and the fact that they are willing to do this despite their frustrations with you shows they not only care, but have thicker skins then most of us do.
Stop blaming them, even if they have issues they need to work on. Worry about yourself, and how to get by in THEIR house, under THEIR rules, until you move out.
Or even better...ask yourself why they are worried? Maybe they have reason to be, since what you INSIST works for you hasn't worked out that well.
Maybe they know what they are talking about, just a little. Most parents arent' complete morons, and they have a house, careers, and are supporting YOU, for heaven's sake! Maye THEIR way actually WORKS?
Fair is fair. Considering how much YOU owe THEM for allowing you back in their house, I'd say they are being more than fair.
[ April 20, 2009, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Thirdly, this isn't about what "sites" I may or may not be watching/reading/listening to when I'm studying, I could just as easily distract myself with the 9 seasons of Top Gear...
Read that again. Doesn't it disappoint you that you sound proud of that?
Dude, you need to learn to focus. Your parents are trying to force you to learn, and you're pushing back against it even as you admit that, yes, you can't do it on your own.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
To an extent you are right, however, nothing gives them the right to actually spy on what is actually transpiring on my screens, its one thing to monitor network activity, its quite another to behind my back spy on me, and for that matter absolutely refuse to even answer in what way they were spying, "are you actually seeing whats on my screen?", "what program are you using", "which computer is it on", "how do you know its actually safe and not a virus?", he refused to answer any of these, at the very least as the network admin I have the right to know what is being used to ascertain how much of a security risk it is. I keep my bank and financial information on my computer.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Thirdly, this isn't about what "sites" I may or may not be watching/reading/listening to when I'm studying, I could just as easily distract myself with the 9 seasons of Top Gear...
Read that again. Doesn't it disappoint you that you sound proud of that?
Dude, you need to learn to focus. Your parents are trying to force you to learn, and you're pushing back against it even as you admit that, yes, you can't do it on your own.
Nowhere did I say I was proud, I am saying I find it hard or next to impossible to focus on my work unless I have something, anything in the background to reduce my fidget factor.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Blayne: Tom said you sound proud not that you declared that you are proud. Distractions designed to reduce you being distracted are a double edged sword. If your distraction is too good you end up ignoring what needs to be done so that you can commit to it and enjoy it more, (hatrack ironically can be that way for me).
Music is good for me because I'm not gonna stop writing just to listen more intently, but I might suddenly hear something I like and go off on the internet and try to find more of a certain band. TV is OK sometimes depending on the show, The Daily Show would not work for me as I care too much about the material. A documentary usually serves me pretty well.
Only you can decide what works and what doesn't but you have to own up to what doesn't work and deny yourself certain pleasures because they get in the way of what your long term objectives are.
I'll be honest Blayne and I am guilty of this to so don't feel angered by it, you don't strike me as the type who is particularly good at reigning in leisure for the sake of productivity.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Thirdly, this isn't about what "sites" I may or may not be watching/reading/listening to when I'm studying, I could just as easily distract myself with the 9 seasons of Top Gear...
Even if Tom and BlackBlade are completely wrong about you being or sounding proud, Blayne, the problem is still this: you're capable of being distracted from real, productive stuff by goofing off online, and it doesn't appear you recognize that that's a problem.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
Something just occurred to me, and it is very disconcerting. Perhaps it isn't on the computer or network... maybe it's just a camera behind or above you.
I recall one time when I was a teenager, I was living with my mother who was living at my Grandma's house. My uncle was also living there with my cousin. One day I stumbled upon a camera hidden in a house plant in the living room and nobody knew about. It was intended to keep an eye on my cousin whom my uncle didn't trust in the least, but I took great offense at it as he couldn't choose WHO it was spying on. Needless to say, that camera was never seen again (it was apparently unplugged when the perpetrator removed it).
It isn't outside the realm of possibility that they have a camera pointing at your computer- which is far worse than snooping software IMO. I don't wanna make you paranoid, but look around really quick.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
Also, that might explain why he isn't willing to discuss it... if the truth is worse than what you accuse him of.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Maybe you're a Cylon.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
I'm seriously thankful for my parents when reading how some of you think the relationship between parents and their adult children should go. Forcing someone to study a certain way? Possibly installing monitoring programs on someone's computer? Enforcing a diet? My parents treat me like an adult and trust and respect me enough to do none of those things. Of course there's still the fact of the parent-child relationship and the fact that they do have some authority over adult children, but the way Blayne's father is acting (if it happened as Blayne says) is ridiculous.
Blayne, I really hope you can find safe, affordable housing for when you go to Concordia because your home life sounds really unhealthy.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: Something just occurred to me, and it is very disconcerting. Perhaps it isn't on the computer or network... maybe it's just a camera behind or above you.
I said that already. Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain:
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: Something just occurred to me, and it is very disconcerting. Perhaps it isn't on the computer or network... maybe it's just a camera behind or above you.
I said that already.
>.< Sorry, I just skimmed after a certain point.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: I'm seriously thankful for my parents when reading how some of you think the relationship between parents and their adult children should go.
I don't know that anyone is talking about how things should go. If Blayne's parents are in fact spying on him, I doubt anyone thinks that this is optimal, but many people are saying that they are within their rights to do so.
Also, I don't think that Blayne really qualifies as being considered as an adult. I don't think of him as one and, reading through the lines of what he's posted here, I don't think his parents do either.
---
What it comes down to me is that regardless of what the actual truth of what is going on here, Blayne's got two choices. He can either fume about how unfair it is and how much of a victim he is or he can get his head down and do the work he is supposed to. Even if the former were justified, the latter option is by far the more productive one and the one that will actually lead to at least some, if not all, aspects of the situation getting better. I have little faith that Blayne will do this though.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
That depends on what you mean by "Better". In the short term, sure, things will probably go smoother if he just accepts this behavior and does exactly what his parents want him to do. In the long term, however, that action may just set up the precedent for his parents to continue treating him like that for a good portion, if not all, of his adult life.
I don't really know Blayne. I'm mostly just a lurker here unless a subject happens to jump out at me. As such, your view of him may indeed be more accurate than mine. It seems to me though, that even if Blayne DOES have maturity issues, it is now clear to me where he got them.
Maybe it's just me. I prefer full disclosure (as much as possible) and teaching by example. I don't think teaching someone by beating them into a path without even telling them what you're doing is a viable option for education.
As far as the (potential) A.D.D. issue goes, I relate with you completely. The only things I seem to be able to focus on effectively are Interests, and Obligations, and the latter is often put off until the last minute. One thing I can tell you is: Do not be afraid of the A.D.D. label. As cliche as it is, it is a real problem suffered by real people. Some kids may be misdiagnosed with it just because they don't do exactly what their parents or teachers tell them to, but the way I see it, when you notice the symptoms YOURSELF, then it's time to look into it. I'm actually in the process of trying to get help with this now, but it seems that my tendencies to procrastinate are working very strongly against me. I even tried asking my mother for help setting up a doctor's appointment and getting a subscription for Ritalin (or whatever they're giving people for this nowadays), but she told me to take care it myself... obviously misunderstanding the situation.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Blayne, I can sympathize with the problem of concentrating without distractions. I know the feeling of restlessness and existential angst that can set in when tasked with something boring that will last more than a few minutes. I even cope in much the same ways some of the time.
All that being said, I think you absolutely need to try avoiding distractions. I know this makes it much, much harder to study. I know it's almost physically painful to be stuck there with a Win Server book and nothing else to do. You still need to learn to do it. You won't learn if you permit yourself to indulge in the style of studying you're accustomed to. It might have worked well enough to get by in the past, but it's probably not good enough to work for you in the long term.
Thing is, you're going to end up sitting at a desk where you're paid to do boring things for hours on end with very little interruption and distraction. That's why you're in school, right? Your employer will forbid video streaming, or bringing in your library of Top Gear episodes. If you're lucky you'll be permitted to use an MP3 player.
What would be really unlucky is if you end up working for a company that doesn't control and restrict Internet and PC usage much the way your dad wants to. Because then you'll be unproductive and you'll lose your job or at least fail to advance your career. *UNLESS* you learn to control it yourself first.
Yes, you can defeat whatever mechanism your dad has to monitor or control your activity. You know how to reset the router, got it. You can probably buy a high gain antenna and use a neighbor's wifi if you have to. But that'd be pointless, and it won't help your relationship with your parents, and won't solve any of your real problems.
Option list? I love making them. Here you go:
1) Learn to live with dad's restrictions, feel happy that it'll prepare you well for most employment opportunities. 2) Defeat and ignore dad's rules --2a)Work for strict employer, learn the hard way to concentrate. Maybe fail, maybe get fired. --2b)Work for lax employer, waste your time there, maybe get fired, maybe stagnate for years. 3) Voluntarily give up your distractions, and be well prepared to concentrate in any employment.
You get SO MUCH advice, and a lot of it is SO pointed and critical, that I can't imagine how you view yet more of it coming from me, but I mean well. I can relate, I think. And I think you need to look past your resentment of what your dad is doing to why he's doing it, which is intended to help you.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ignoring all this svada and concentrating on important stuff, how many regiments will China commit to the upcoming English campaign? For myself I am thinking in terms of 160 cav, 40 inf/art, which will be rather above my support limits, and 300 ships. Brittany has 200 ships, and I think about 160 cav in England. His African troops are a separate problem, but I suspect he'll surrender the disputed territories if we crush the English garrison and conrol the Atlantic. If not we can think about invading Morocco and blockading the Med. How's your naval range?
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
I don't know how well Blayne does at school, but in general it appears as if a lot of you are assuming that being easily distracted = bad performance. This isn't always true. I'm easily distracted but I did well in school and do well professionally because when I am fully concentrating I make up for it.
Maybe his dad is trying to "make" him learn... but this isn't the way to do it. Something like "if you get one grade less than a b next semester I'm no longer going to allow you access to the network" or "I'm going to remove the cable connection from your room" or such makes more sense to me.
If Blayne really is 18 then he isn't exactly ground-able, and the power his parents realistically have over him amounts to "live in my house live by my rules". But there's a point where you have to consider what reasonable rules are.
I guess what I'm saying is that Blayne needs the chance to prove himself or fail. The rules and consequences should be laid out, and then Blayne can try to meet expectations his way. If/when he fails there should be consequences. In my experience it's generally better to let people alter their own actions because they didn't like the consequences of those actions than to try to alter their actions yourself.
Now, it's very possible that all this has happened and Blayne has already shown himself to be incapable of being responsible... I don't know and as others have pointed out he doesn't exactly come across as the most reasoned and mature person, so we can't judge purely on his version of events.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Ignoring all this svada and concentrating on important stuff, how many regiments will China commit to the upcoming English campaign? For myself I am thinking in terms of 160 cav, 40 inf/art, which will be rather above my support limits, and 300 ships. Brittany has 200 ships, and I think about 160 cav in England. His African troops are a separate problem, but I suspect he'll surrender the disputed territories if we crush the English garrison and conrol the Atlantic. If not we can think about invading Morocco and blockading the Med. How's your naval range?
Itll take me a while to move troops over but asde from the 40 cav already in theater, 120,000 troops shouldn't be difficult, will take 3 trips however. Ireland or ion Scotland?
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:I have the memory of a goldfish. So I'm not always positive of who is may or may not be my "biggest fan", I recall ClaudiaTheresa, Strangelove, Tante as supportive regardless.
You remind me of two of my best friends, Scott and Tim. Long story short, they both struggle or have struggled with similar things as you. Scott I grew up with, and seeing everyone think I was smart and responsible while Scott was dumb and lazy infuriated me. Scott had talents I could only dream of, but his parents stifled those talents to try to get him to be more academic, to be able to take tests and memorize things, to "be responsible." It was only when he moved out that he was able to pursue his passions with energy and zeal. Tim, my neighbor right now and future roommate (he and his wife are coming to live with me and mine next semester), also doesn't fit into the mold of success which is set, and he gets pissed off because of it. Pissed because people often disrespect him and think he's incapable (which sounds like what you're feeling like your parents are doing), even though he does put in time and effort. He just does it in a different way than professors and even fellow students think is acceptable.
All that to say, yeah, I am supportive of you. Obviously, I'm not really comparing you with Scott and Tim. I don't know you as well as I know them. But I've seen the way society, even parents, can try to force people to be something they are not and I can't stomach it. Maybe it's my own youth and naivete speaking, but I would much rather see a Blayne who struggles but ultimately finds a passion, a niche, a place to be comfortable with excellence but never complacent, than to see a Blayne who is always trying to live up to some unattainable standard set by people who have never taken the time to get to know your particular set of skills and abilities. And I know the reponse: Who better to know than parents? In my experience, especially at Blayne and mine's age, even the best parents seem to struggle shifting their paradigms to see the skills and abilities and identity their child is developing as an adult.
So yeah. I'm not saying you have an excuse to not work hard, or that you're some misunderstood pariah who gets to throw pity parties. Honestly, to be happy and successful, you're probably going to have to work harder than most.
And that's not really a satisfactory ending to this post, but work calls. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Ignoring all this svada and concentrating on important stuff, how many regiments will China commit to the upcoming English campaign? For myself I am thinking in terms of 160 cav, 40 inf/art, which will be rather above my support limits, and 300 ships. Brittany has 200 ships, and I think about 160 cav in England. His African troops are a separate problem, but I suspect he'll surrender the disputed territories if we crush the English garrison and conrol the Atlantic. If not we can think about invading Morocco and blockading the Med. How's your naval range?
Itll take me a while to move troops over but aside from the 40 cav already in theater, 120,000 troops shouldn't be difficult, will take 3 trips however. Ireland or Scotland?
Scotland, I think, so we don't have to rely on your navy being able to sit about in the Irish sea. I'll put mine in Ireland and land in Cumbria, send a holding force south and we can smash his northern garrison between us. Defeat in detail ftw.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Question, won't he see us coming if he sees 200,000 Chinese troops in Scottland? Hard to defeat someone in detail without the element of surprise.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
It's a point, but we're allied at the moment; there's not really anywhere to hide if he goes looking. Still, maybe Ireland would be better.
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