Just wondering. I'd like to find a girl that I don't have to spend more than $10 a week on (on average), but I feel that that's not realistic. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Depends on the girl.
Depends on what you're spending the $10 on.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Depends on your race, her race, your culture, her culture, your age, her age, your jobs, your geographical locations, your personal finances ...
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
You could Rent-to-own a RealDoll I suppose...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What they said. It all depends on your circumstances, expectations, and activities.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Folks should date me. I'm so low maintainence, though I want the Ultimate Sandman and the Ultimate Watchmen though.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am not low maintenance. I think the guy should pay for dinner and movies and things. I'll buy the movie snacks and theatre tickets for shows I wants to see and make dinner sometimes, though.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
If you love her, you won't care...
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I'm just saying that if you personally spend, say, $10 a week on average on books, CDs, DVDs, games, etc., you have something to show for it at the end. I really don't like spending money on going out to dinner, shows, vacations, etc. because once they're over you have nothing to show for them.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think I'd just go to matanee movies. No way a person should pay more than 7 bucks for a movie! But if the guy is po and I'm making more money than him (which is not likely, considering) should he have to pay? I am so super undemanding. I wonder why I haven't been snapped up yet. It could be due to my shyness and looking 15 years younger than I am.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I don't agree that money should play no roll, but if you really see it as an investment out of which you'd like quantifiable, identifiable rewards I think you should be looking for a very specific kind of girl...
Hobbes Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I am not low maintenance. I think the guy should pay for dinner and movies and things. I'll buy the movie snacks and theatre tickets for shows I wants to see and make dinner sometimes, though.
I buy into the chivalry/courtship ritual of a guy paying, but I don't think that should continue once a couple becomes exclusive.
As time passes, I become less and less enamored with the idea of the guy paying, especially as I see more and more women who just like one off dates for free food and entertainment. I think it made sense before the era of casual dating. Now I think it's unfair. But I was still brought up with those values, and they're hard to shake, so continue to pay, for the first few dates anyway, I shall.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Hubby and I go to the movie on saturday mornings. No big crowds, manatee prices. It's wonderful.
If you fret about spending money on your date, you will fail to impress. Save the cheapness till you already have her hooked in.
Syn: I'm super laid back and casual too (and I look younger than I am) and I still didn't find someone to love me back till I was 30.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Hehehehe. Manatee.
Good, there's hope for me yet. I really would like a boyfriend, but I am sooooooooooooo shy and have no idea how to go about meeting one. But I want one THIS YEAR DANG IT!
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Folks should date me. I'm so low maintainence, though I want the Ultimate Sandman and the Ultimate Watchmen though.
I'm fine with spending more on birthday and Christmas presents. If you get things from other people that you wanted to buy anyway, it's as if you bought those things on your own and didn't buy anyone any presents.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
syn: find a stereotypically male hobby that you enjoy.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Hubby and I go to the movie on saturday mornings. No big crowds, manatee prices. It's wonderful.
How much are they charging manatees now anyway? I would think there's a surcharge for the inevitable messes.
I'm done dating/courting so it's easy for me to say, but I think it's wrong to expect the man to pay for most of it. It's selfish for women to expect to get nice meals and entertainment at someone else's expense. Unless, of course, you are offering repayment by other means, but I think most women (and a lot of men) would object to characterizing dating as a venal business arrangement.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: syn: find a stereotypically male hobby that you enjoy.
Hmmm. Anime, heavy metal... There's lots of stereotypical male things I like.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think women do spend that much - when I am dating someone steadily, I spend as much every month on my hair, makeup, and clothes as he spends on dinner and a movie.
That division of cost makes dating expensive to both sexes. Going dutch makes it very expensive for only one.
If guys weren't so visually fixated, then it wouldn't cost so much to look hot on dates. That's part of why it's okay to get more equitable as the relationship endures: I don't have to get as dressed up every time.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
sci: Uh... I dunno.. hubby pays =) Like $8? I'm in the SF Bay Area though so everything costs more here.
When I was dating, I'd usually insist on going dutch (regardless of what sex I was dating) until I decided the person was a keeper.
Syn: Do you hang out with Otaku and metal-heads? Go to their conventions? Stand too close when you discuss said topics?
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
My now hubby and I started dating where we went dutch for everything. Once we started dating exclusive, he paid for everything. I thought it was a little backwards, but it made sense at the time. As a wife, I am pretty low maintainence. However, I do really want this specific pair of earrings for $200. In May, there is Mother's Day, my birthday, my anniversary and I will turn in my master's thesis and be done with that. Plus hubby has that nice new job. I think one pair of earrings isn't too demanding considering.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
I think women do spend that much - when I am dating someone steadily, I spend as much every month on my hair, makeup, and clothes as he spends on dinner and a movie.
I'm fine with girls not wearing any makeup or special clothes when they're out with me. In fact, I want to be with a girl whom I find pretty no matter what, because she won't be made up and dressed like that all the time. How do I tell a girl that? Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think women do spend that much - when I am dating someone steadily, I spend as much every month on my hair, makeup, and clothes as he spends on dinner and a movie.
That division of cost makes dating expensive to both sexes. Going dutch makes it very expensive for only one.
If guys weren't so visually fixated, then it wouldn't cost so much to look hot on dates. That's part of why it's okay to get more equitable as the relationship endures: I don't have to get as dressed up every time.
See, I don't do any of that stuff. No dressing up, unless I've got to go to work, I hate wearing make-up, and spending hours getting all frou froued up... With song birds male birds have got to dance around and go, Look at me and my sexy pretty plumage, don't you want me? Where-as human woman have to be like baboons with their red butts sticking out going, aren't I hot? Run off with me. Or something like that.
Hmm. I must find otaku and metal heads. Maybe I need to get around to going to the MIT anime thing I haven't gone to yet.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I make a lot of money while my boyfriend is on health benefits. Obviously I spend more Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
katharina, I see what you're saying, but would you agree that in a hypothetical perfect world, it'd be better if you could just invest exactly as much in your appearance as you want to, and remove that from the dating equation?
It seems like it'd be an overall improvement if women just looked like whatever version of themselves they plan to maintain, and men got to know what women really look like early in the relationship instead of finding out later.
And, to be honest, I doubt that men attach as much importance to the results of your investment as you do. (If they did, it'd be a lot harder to get away with reverting to a lower amount of effort/cost later in the relationship.)
But to the extent that some men WANT their women to have expensive looks, and that you want to date those same men, I can see that the expense might balance out.
It's just that as I think over all the dates I've been on - and it's not that many, really, but still - I've never really paid attention to the subtleties of the artificial hair color or the gloss on the fingernails of my dates, but I certainly have enjoyed the movie or food or minigolf or whatever it is that we're doing together. I assume that my dates got as much enjoyment from those things as I did.
So, from my point of view, whatever extra money my dates spent on their appearance *for me* really didn't do anything for me, while the cost of the meal or whatever certainly benefited both of us. (That is, I'd not have been bothered or less attracted if they maintained their baseline beauty routine instead of doing something special/expensive for the date.)
On the other hand, I get a great deal of enjoyment from physical attention, and would happily pay for everything in return for affectionate favors. But I don't think you'd like to put your dating in those terms, would you?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tara: If you love her, you won't care...
Conversely, if she loves you, she does care
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I'm just saying that if you personally spend, say, $10 a week on average on books, CDs, DVDs, games, etc., you have something to show for it at the end. I really don't like spending money on going out to dinner, shows, vacations, etc. because once they're over you have nothing to show for them.
Depends on your priorities really. In some sense, yes, you may physically have something if you buy a travel book or a CD vs. going travelling or going to a musical. But many people value the actual experience (and surrounding things that may not necessarily be captured in physical form), so that can vary.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Who said anything about paying for affection? No, I don't think you should treat your date like a whore. I can't believe you had to ask.
*shrug* I'd be thrilled beyond words if what mattered what not the style of my hair but the content of my character. Till then, if I have to dress up and he only pays attention when I do, then he has to pay for dinner, dammit.
quote: It seems like it'd be an overall improvement if women just looked like whatever version of themselves they plan to maintain, and men got to know what women really look like early in the relationship instead of finding out later. ... their baseline beauty routine
Don't you think that gets affected by the desire to date?
I don't think it's a bad thing that people play the best versions of themselves while dating. Once you love someone, it is amazing the mental gymnastics you'll go through to justify that investment of affection, mental gymnastics that someone is rarely willing to do for someone they are not attached to yet.
I think that mental gymnastics is a good thing, generally. Certainly it wouldn't do much for relationship stability if every day you had to convince your sweetheart you are worth their time again - the point of life is that sometimes you don't have that time. That mental gymnastics is the reason sometimes people stay in bad relationships, but it's also the reason people stay in good ones as well, since nothing is great 100% of the time.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Just wondering. I'd like to find a girl that I don't have to spend more than $10 a week on (on average), but I feel that that's not realistic.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Till then, if I have to dress up and he only pays attention when I do, then he has to pay for dinner, dammit.
You don't have to. Maybe you only like dating guys who only pay attention when you do, but there are tons of guys whom this is not true for. I'm pretty sure I've had contact with a guy on Hatrack who you've dated whom I'd be very surprised if this was true for.
Speaking for myself and for many guys I know, a lot of the effort and money that women spend on how they look (shoes is a great example of this) isn't something that makes women more attractive to us and we don't regard it as being done for us. By and large, it seems like women dress up for each other and because they like to do it (or feel insecure if they don't).
If you choose to date guys who care more about how you look in the specific, expensive way that women's fashion magazines sell that you are supposed to look than about the content of your character, I think that's your choice and that you do a great disservice to the much wider world of men out there who don't do this by assigning this to the entire gender.
Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
I guess that by some of the standards listed here, I'm high maintenance. It works out, however, because my husband likes it when I look nice and dress up for him. He also dresses up and looks nice and smells nice for me. We have been together for some 10 years now, and it hasn't changed at all, so it's not like we were doing it just for the sake of dating.
I love to go out to the movies or on dates, which is especially important for us now that we have a child and our alone time is few and far between.
What's funny about it is that I still want to feel doted upon, even though our finances are combined. Right now I'm a stay-at-home-mom, but when I worked I made more than he did and he still paid for dates and entertainment. Since our finances are combined, it all came out in the wash. I think it's important for your significant other to make you feel like you're special, even if it's in small ways. It's the same in reverse, however-you should do your best to make your significant other feel like they're special, too.
My family has observed that my DH would pretty much do anything for me and one member said that they thought I was lucky because I had a husband who worshipped me. I was surprised that they didn't have the same in their relationships. I really feel like you get out of your relationship what you put into it. Even if it's small things like getting them a drink from the other room (something that costs almost nothing other than your energy and the cost of the drink), you should do your best to make them feel good.
I do think that it's possible to date someone and only spend $10 a week on them. If you really care about them though, you won't be keeping tabs on who spends what and you'll find that if you have the expendable income that it won't bother you as much to spend it on someone you care for.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am not discussing this with you, Squick.
----
Exactly, Belladonna.
I think it's pretty important in terms of Mormon dating as well, because it is often, in the early stages, the only way to tell it's a date, since physical affection often isn't part of the equation in the beginning. Rather than thinking every outing with a guy I have is a date, I prefer it that I can tell and he can tell it is because he's paying and I tried to look pretty.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Omega, If I recall your past postings correctly, you seem to me to have a strange view of what a girlfriend is for.
Why do you want a girlfriend?
---
I've gone through different financial and relationship situations throughout my life. There were times where I was making tons of money and I paid for most of the date expenses. There was a period where I was working on my start up and didn't have any income coming it where I made it clear that if she wanted to do something expensive, she'd have to pay.
I pay for dates, gifts, etc. because I want to, generally. Relationships where I felt I had to spend when I didn't want to, I walked away from pretty quickly. But it should be noted that, to me, the purpose of excess money is pretty much to make other people - usually ones I like - happy.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I'm just saying that if you personally spend, say, $10 a week on average on books, CDs, DVDs, games, etc., you have something to show for it at the end. I really don't like spending money on going out to dinner, shows, vacations, etc. because once they're over you have nothing to show for them.
Are you sure you're ready to be dating? What do you hope to accomplish through dating? Is it something you want to do or something you think you have to do?
This is all just one big mating/courtship ritual. If you're not interested in the potential outcomes of such a ritual, then no, it's not worth it to spend any money on girls. It's also not worth it to date.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: ... a lot of the effort and money that women spend on how they look (shoes is a great example of this) isn't something that makes women more attractive to us and we don't regard it as being done for us. By and large, it seems like women dress up for each other and because they like to do it (or feel insecure if they don't) ...
Hand-bags are another glaring example.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Who said anything about paying for affection? No, I don't think you should treat your date like a whore. I can't believe you had to ask.
well, some women "put out" out of a sense of obligation related to the cost of dates. I don't think it's always a healthy or smart thing to do, but it's another way to balance the cost equation (and, I think, demonstrates that some women aren't balancing it the way that you are). For some couples it could be fine, I think. (I mean, as long as nobody's doing anything unpleasant without any reciprocal enjoyment.)
I wasn't suggesting that you would do such a thing, and wasn't asking if you do.
quote:I don't think it's a bad thing that people play the best versions of themselves while dating. Once you love someone, it is amazing the mental gymnastics you'll go through to justify that investment of affection, mental gymnastics that someone is rarely willing to do for someone they are not attached to yet.
I think that mental gymnastics is a good thing, generally. Certainly it wouldn't do much for relationship stability if every day you had to convince your sweetheart you are worth their time again - the point of life is that sometimes you don't have that time. That mental gymnastics is the reason sometimes people stay in bad relationships, but it's also the reason people stay in good ones as well, since nothing is great 100% of the time.
Do you think mental gymnastics are always required, or do you think they might tend to be more necessary when a certain degree of illusion was integral to the relationship in the first place?
But this is getting a bit confused, since we were talking about makeup/hair/clothes, and I don't think such things play much of a role in determining whether a relationship is good or bad, or tend to require mental gymnastics to overlook. Exercise is probably a bit closer to something that helps define the quality of a relationship - body shape is one aspect, but health and activity are also connected to exercise and I can easily imagine that a fit person who became unfit later in the relationship might thereby introduce stresses. (But, fitness isn't really expensive so I'm not sure how well it fits the discussion so far.)
quote:I'd be thrilled beyond words if what mattered what not the style of my hair but the content of my character.
Glad we could agree on something. I certainly don't blame you for playing the game by the rules you perceive in it. As long as your potential mates view the game the same way, it works out for everybody.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am not including handbags or shoes in the cost.
I wonder sometimes if guys really realize how much makeup and date clothes in general cost. If not always in money (Forever 21 is a blessing from heaven) then in time and effort.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: But, fitness isn't really expensive
*blink*
Is that a joke?
Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
In addition, I wanted to add that I don't feel like going on dates to movies, dinner or going on vacation are things that once they are over you have nothing to show for it. Maybe nothing material, but even if you don't end up staying with that person long term, you have built some lovely memories with them. Memories are to me just as important as material items that you can look at and feel. The difference is that you look at them with your mind and feel them with the emotions they invoke.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, geez, yeah - I didn't even consider the cost of a healthy diet and gym fees and sometimes a trainer.
Add in those, and it's easily an extra hundred to two hundred dollars a month.
He can pay for dinner.
quote:Do you think mental gymnastics are always required
Yes, actually. Maybe not always of the contortionist kind, but I think that part of being safe in a relationship comes from knowing that your darling will understand and forgive the times when you need support and understanding, and they'll understand and forgive more because it's you than they would for someone they didn't care about.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I don't wear a lot of makeup and tend to wear tennis shoes. I've been using the same handbag (I got at Target) for the past 10 years.
My "get a stereotypically male hobby" method is what worked for me. Further, now that I'm old and my meager looks have faded anyway, we have something in common.
My method is also cheaper and less frustrating for those of us that will never be a beauty no matter how much lipstick we put on and expensive clothes we wear.
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
What, guys don't work out?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I do not like handbags. Someone tried to give me one and I left it at home and found out when I was at Target. I had to walk all the way home having been given a ride, get the purse, have a good breakfast and I had to try to go out again by walking all the way to the train station. I like backpacks.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm right at the middle stage - I'm lovely if/when I spend the effort, and I'm plain if/when I don't. You know that moment in the movie when the plain girl walks in and she's gorgeous and everyone gasps and the mean girls ask her where she got her clothes/shoes/glasses or something and she has to beat the cute guy away with a stick? That's happened to me at least a dozen times in my life.
It's like a light switch. If I don't want to be plagued by male attention, I stop trying. When I do and put in the not-inconsiderable effort, I get all the attention I want.
This has surely affected my views on it all. I also find...I mean, if he thinks buying me dinner so we can have a conversation is a waste of money, that's a pretty good indicator of what he thinks about dating in general or dating me in particular.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
<----loves,loves,loves shoes & handbags
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm right at the middle stage - I'm lovely if/when I spend the effort, and I'm plain if/when I don't. You know that moment in the movie when the plain girl walks in and she's gorgeous and everyone gasps and the mean girls ask her where she got her clothes/shoes/glasses or something and she has to beat the cute guy away with a stick? That's happened to me at least a dozen times in my life.
I have to say "wow" girl...you've got quite the opinion of yourself. It's nice to have someone say that about you, it's entirely different when you say it about yourself.
go kat! Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Hmm So what are my odds of getting a guy if I am an unconventional girl again?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, I can say that right now. I got my heart broken a little while ago and so have spent the last while expending no effort at all, with predictable results.
I do expect this to happen less often as I get older, which is another reason I'm kind of cynical about how much guys care about appearance in general - it's so transient. But they do. A lot. *shrug* Thus goes the world.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Syn, the odds are good, very, very good.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
katharina, I think, for the first time ever, I agree with you.
I like girls all prettied up, and I'm happy to pay for them on dates.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
rivka, not a joke, no. You can certainly spend a lot of money on it, and I'm well aware that poor people tend to be fatter in rich modern nations, but *how* you maintain your fitness, and the amount of money you spend on it, are entirely personal decisions. (katharina itemized the expensive way.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:It's like a light switch. If I don't want to be plagued by male attention, I stop trying. When I do and put in the not-inconsiderable effort, I get all the attention I want.
Have you tried just being friendly and open when you want attention? Sorry that sounds snarky, but I have to wonder whether the light switch is in your demeanor and interactions as much as it's in your temporary shine.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*gasp* I never thought of that!!
I've been dating for fifteen years. I know what my own experiences have been.
Are you saying that the way a girl looks doesn't affect the amount of attention she gets? You can speak for your own experiences, but you cannot speak for mine.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
No, I'm saying that you indicated that you don't try to keep your appearance to the same degree when you aren't interested in attention. It seems *possible* that your level of interest is reflected in other ways.
Just frinstance. I don't suppose you go out of your way to smile at guys when you're not feeling interested in male attention. Do you start smiling before you hit the hair salon and put on the dress, is what I'm asking.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't see anything wrong with a woman working to make herself look nice. I personally don't do it with makeup, because I find that when I use makeup, it causes lasting damage to my skin. (And I don't care what anyone who is trying to sell me makeup says to the contrary.) But I do like to wear nice clothes and fix up my hair for my husband. I really should do it more often, but I'm at that stage where I mostly run around a baby and pre-schooler.
In my dating years, I was a pretty cheap date. I did most of my dating in college and the culture there was to be frugal and mostly do inexpensive activities. Looking back, I probably should have had higher standards, especially with one particular boyfriend who was frankly swimming in money and never saw fit to spend it on me.
My husband ended up spending a bit of money courting me, but that was largely because we were long distance for a while and plane tickets are expensive. He says it was a good investment.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
scifibum, you'll have to accept my account of my life at face value. I know what my experiences have been, and treating me like I'm stupid isn't going to convince me otherwise.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I'm sure there are men who don't care what a woman is wearing, but I haven't met many of them.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I actually have an easier time interacting with people when I'm all "done up".
I feel like I can melt into the background easier, and go about my business in a very mysterious, incognito way, when I'm without makeup and wearing sweats and flip-flops.
Yes, I'm famous and shallow.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
When did I treat you like you were stupid? I'm asking a question.
Have you tried being deliberately outgoing and friendly without all the expense and effort you've said goes into looking hot? Was it a big flub?
(What you're saying makes sense if you want to pick up a date in some kind of singles scene, but I assume you occasionally date people who you have contact with in other contexts. Is that a false assumption?)
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kama: I'm sure there are men who don't care what a woman is wearing, but I haven't met many of them.
It's not as if women are happy if men turn up looking like bums, though.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Asking me that question assumes that I am stupid and have never noticed the difference an attitude makes.
Yes, I have taken that into account. My account of my life still stands.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: So what are my odds of getting a guy if I am an unconventional girl again?
Depends on your race, his race, your culture, his culture, your age, his age, your jobs, your geographical locations, your personal finances ... Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
@katharina: OK. Sorry the question was offensive. I obviously don't have a lot of insight into how some women develop their dating leads.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"I'm sure there are men who don't care what a woman is wearing, but I haven't met many of them. "
Women are at LEAST as picky about what men wear as men are about what women wear. My experience is that they are much pickier.
Saying that a girl shouldn't have to pay for dinner because she pays to make herself look nice is to express complete naivete about how much money men spend to make themselves attractive to women.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:It's not as if women are happy if men turn up looking like bums, though.
of course.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thanks.
--
I know exactly how much my ex-boyfriends spent on their appearance: a haircut every two months. It's not even comparable - guys aren't expected to wear makeup, for one. Even at grocery store prices, that almost makes up the difference by itself.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Just wondering. I'd like to find a girl that I don't have to spend more than $10 a week on (on average), but I feel that that's not realistic.
1) Pay all your expenses and necessary bills.
2) Anything you have left over, whatever that may be, expect to spend it on your girlfriend.
And, man, wait 'til you get married. It's the same thing but without the semi-complex math.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
I'll try for a straight answer. . . .
Can you date someone for $10 a week? Sure--it's just going to take more effort, just like entertaining -yourself- for $10 a week would. Instead of taking her out to dinner and the movies, figure out when they're doing free Shakespeare or movie screenings in a local park and pack a picnic. Find out when her favorite author is in town and go to a book reading together, then stop for ice cream afterward. Go hiking. Cook a meal for her and invite her over for dinner. In short: learn what she likes (that doesn't cost money) and do it. Show her you care by paying attention to her interests, rather than just by paying.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
From my perspective, the expectation to wear makeup is more likely to be your own or from your female peers... not from men you might end up marrying. Without exception, my friends, male and female, who are married, met when the woman was not wearing makeup. In most cases, she wore makeup during the courtship only to formal events. And the men I know all tell me they'd rather she didn't wear makeup, even to those.
My girlfriend of 18 months has not worn makeup once since I've known her. So that pattern is holding with me, too.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I know that TMG pays way more for his clothes than I do. He has considerably more money than I do. He also likes very expensive restaurants. He would have no problem paying for everything, but we have worked out a system so I feel comfortable and not like a hooker.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: ... And, man, wait 'til you get married. It's the same thing but without the semi-complex math.
It always gets confusing when one starts spending in amounts that include i.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Thanks.
--
I know exactly how much my ex-boyfriends spent on their appearance: a haircut every two months. It's not even comparable - guys aren't expected to wear makeup, for one. Even at grocery store prices, that almost makes up the difference by itself.
Gel, wax, cologne, nice clothes, condoms. Not comparable to what women do, but not nothing either.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
...I don't think I've dated anyone who wore any of the above, except for the clothes, which were never fancy.
Hm...maybe cologne. I think one wore cologne.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
You need more metrosexual men, kat. Wanna go out sometime?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
And also you should probably practice safer sex.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
Seeing this thread makes me so grateful I am not in the dating scene anymore.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Sure, I'd love to.
I'm not married. I don't have sex.
Still wanna go out? Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Oh, ooooh, yah, don't forget the cost of condoms.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
You can get condoms for free at health centers. They have whole jars of them.
Though it's embarrassing to have them fly out of your pocket at the wrong time. Like on a train.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: From my perspective, the expectation to wear makeup is more likely to be your own or from your female peers... not from men you might end up marrying. Without exception, my friends, male and female, who are married, met when the woman was not wearing makeup. In most cases, she wore makeup during the courtship only to formal events. And the men I know all tell me they'd rather she didn't wear makeup, even to those.
My girlfriend of 18 months has not worn makeup once since I've known her. So that pattern is holding with me, too.
FWIW, I've heard women make remarks about other women's makeup, but I've never heard a man remark on it. And I think my wife looks great without makeup and would be just as happy if she never wore it (but at least she uses it judiciously when she does use it).
But if people actually find that they get more or more favorable reactions from the opposite sex when they wear makeup, I guess it might reflect a different social circle (with its own set of priorities and rules - having never pursued or given extra attention to "hot" looking women, I'm seemingly outside that circle, however it's defined).
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
I think getting "dolled up" makes you attractive to the wrong sort of men...
I am sorry that you have had to date for 15 years.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Sure, I'd love to.
I'm not married. I don't have sex.
Still wanna go out?
I'm gonna assume you also don't drink and conclude that we are completely incompatible. Best of luck though!
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
So, if she drank, had sex and was married, you'd date her?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love my life, and considering that the quality of men I have met has gone up the older I get, I'm not sorry at all.
Not only are there worse things than being happily single, I think most things are worse. Just about everything else you can change - job, location, avocation - but being unhappily married has to be the lowest circle of hell.
But some people hate being by themselves, and some people would rather be in a relationship that can tolerate than look for one that they are happy with. Not saying that you are, but that being single isn't a disaster for everyone. Certainly most relationships I know of make me grateful I'm not married.
Considering I have met only a handful of men I thought I could stand long-term and it didn't work out, I definitely prefer the present option to being married to someone I don't want.
----
Jebus: I don't, and I think you're right. Best of luck for yourself. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:It always gets confusing when one starts spending in amounts that include i.
The math gets even harder when your employer starts paying you in imaginary bills.
Hobbes Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
What do you hope to accomplish through dating? Is it something you want to do or something you think you have to do?
I want someone with whom I can be physically affectionate and talk about my concerns---and who wants the same things from me, of course. I don't see why either of those things requires continual outlays of money.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
What do you hope to accomplish through dating? Is it something you want to do or something you think you have to do?
I want someone with whom I can be physically affectionate and talk about my concerns---and who wants the same things from me, of course. I don't see why either of those things requires continual outlays of money.
They don't, or at least they shouldn't.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Since my mind cannot really accept that jebus is out of high school, the whole talk of dating, sex and drinking is highly disturbing.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
That view doesn't hold well for the future I had imagined for us, Kama.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
My husband never spent much money on me, not when we were dating and not now that we are married. We mostly do things together that don't cost much money (hiking, biking, talking and such). I'm very happy with that. I'd much rather have him spend time with me than spend money on me.
I've never spent much time and money on grooming. I know I can go from looking OK to looking great with some effort, but I'd rather put my effort in to more interesting things. My husband actually prefers the way I look without makeup.
I'm sure I would have got more attention from guys back when I was single if I'd spent more time and money on how I looked. But I'd rather have one husband who loves the way I look naturally than have dated a hundred guys who liked what the beauticians could do with me.
If you spend a lot effort trying to be something you aren't in order to draw the attention of men or women, you are likely to end up with someone you don't really want to be with and who doesn't really want to be with you.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think there are many ways to be happy, and one person's way doesn't fit everyone.
There are lots of things that I'd never find acceptable, but that doesn't mean that I pity those who do. I don't like dating gamers and I'd never marry a nonmember, but I don't think what is best for me is best for everyone.
Someone else's dating life is the last place on earth it is okay to be judgmental.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:If you spend a lot effort trying to be something you aren't in order to draw the attention of men or women, you are likely to end up with someone you don't really want to be with and who doesn't really want to be with you.
I agree with that in general, but there's a difference between trying to show the best part of yourself (physically and otherwise) and trying to actually be someone else, and I don't think the dividing line can be drawn with a price tag but has to be determined by each person for themselves. Some women never spend much time r money on their grooming and some do; just as some men will never spend much money or time on grooming or dating. In that same vein some men may try to buy the love of the women they're courting where as other just wish to make them happy by giving their dates what they think will be enjoyable time. Again it's hard to draw the line with a dollar amount we just recognize that it's different for all people. If a guy doesn't want to spend much on dating than his prerogative, so long as he's willing to accept that some girls will think he's cheap and doesn't care about them. I find it hard to believe that there's a right and wrong to it, though there are certainly levels on either side of the issue (and for both genders) that when exceeded, make it rare to find someone who agrees with your ... level of determination so to speak.
I'm not sure how I feel about the argument that guys should pay because girls spend equivalent amounts on appearance, partially because I'm uncomfortable with the feeling of a date as a trade (which to me is what that feels like) but also because I wouldn't be comfortable having a girl pay even if I was sure I'd spent more than her. As an example, some guys buy very expensive cars to impress women. Seems pretty stupid to me but I don't think there's many women out there who really spend more on their appearance over the life time of a car than the cost of a fancy, new car.
Hobbes Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
Kat: If you expect guys to pay for dinner, I assume that you also expect them to drive you to the restaurant. If so, which do you think costs more, makeup or a really nice car every couple years.
You might think a guy isn't obligated to buy a car for you. But guys who like to date high-maintenance girls would probably feel as uncomfortable picking you up in an '85 Pinto as you would going out in sweats and a dirty T-shirt.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
Wow, and I thought *I* was asking personal questions.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
How is that unusual?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed: Kat: If you expect guys to pay for dinner, I assume that you also expect them to drive you to the restaurant.
I wouldn't assume that. She lives in one of the few parts of this country with fairly decent public transportation.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
I could list at least a dozen of my friends that fit that bill.
(I wouldn't. But I could.)
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
In my experience, guys claim not to care about looks, not want someone to get fixed up, spend money and effort on their looks, but those same guys always end up dating the girls who do. I've seen this happen at least two dozen times with guys I'm friends with, over 3 decades. So my opinion is that guys may not realize it at the time, but they're unaware of their own selection criteria.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Speed: I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
People take the subway in NYC.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
I could list at least a dozen of my friends that fit that bill.
Excellent! Wonderful! I can see I shall have to rephrase, though: "Unusual in my experience".
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
kat -
I'm confused as to the assumption that men pay for food and women pay for pretty.
Are you dating guys in ripped jeans and t-shirts splattered with paint?
When I go out, and for that matter, when my guy friends go out on dates, they're wearing moderate to somewhat expensive clothes, cologne, maybe gel depending on the guy and spend plenty of time making sure they look their best.
Are you buying new clothes for every date? If so, that's pretty ridiculous. And for that matter, to repeat someone else, guys don't go to the gym? I'm there several days a week (well, less lately since I've been busy) and I'd say the genders are almost equally balanced. The only difference is that the women tend to dominate the cardio area and the men dominate the free weights, generally.
Maybe this is just a generational thing since you're a decade or so older than me?
From my perspective, I have to look nice, in much the same way that girls do, and then on top I have to pay for the evening. I like a girl to show up looking nice, but not "I spent hundreds of dollars just for this date" nice.
I think you're vastly underbalancing this equation.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Guess what they all have in common?
Three guesses. And the first two don't count. Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: Saying that a girl shouldn't have to pay for dinner because she pays to make herself look nice is to express complete naivete about how much money men spend to make themselves attractive to women.
QFT I don't mind paying, but I decide what my motivations are for that, not the women I date. (i.e. paying to make herself look nice)
What about the money of gym memberships? If you assume(not saying you are in this specific instance katharina) all men only date women who spend the time to make themselves attractive, you would also have to take into account that men have to put in the money and effort men put into gyms. We have to make ourselves attractive too! So YOU should pay then. EDIT: Dang, lyrhawn beat me to it.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Guess what they all have in common?
Three guesses. And the first two don't count.
*Don't ask if they're ugly. Don't ask if they're ugly. Don't ask if they're ugly.*
Are they ugly?
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Speed: I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
People take the subway in NYC.
Kat's profile says she lives in Dallas. Do they have a subway there?
If so, do they meet at the restaurant? Or does the guy take the subway to the girl's house and then go back to the subway to get to the restaurant?
I'm really curious how people do this in general, and how Kat does it in particular. I can't imagine her spending a few hundred dollars on hair, clothes and makeup and then waiting at a bus stop or a subway station to get to a restaurant.
Of course, I've never lived in a city with a subway, so I'm prepared to be surprised by some cultural differences.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
By the way, I'm with lem. I've been married for 10 years, and I've never once seriously wished I was dating again.
I never dated anyone too high-maintenance, though. Not that I never paid for a dinner, or kept track of exactly who paid more for dates over the course of a relationship. But even when I had the spare cash, after a date or two I started letting the girl pay for some things, just because I wanted to know if she valued my company as much as I valued hers.
There are some that wouldn't do it. That was a pretty good indication that they weren't for me, so I moved on. It was an efficient way for me to find the best wife I could have imagined.
She doesn't wear much (if any) makeup either, which I found very attractive. Some guys didn't, but I guess that helped her weed out the chumps and find me, too. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I care about looks, but not in the usual way, and I have severe quirks. I don't like make-up, and it took me a while to realize that I consider chubbiness as a sign of moral weakness, akin to smoking. I have a WONDERFUL girlfriend(and, yes, striking to boot), but she puts up with a lot. This weekend, we bicycled from Chicago to Indiana for an overnight camping trip at the Indiana Dunes. She has come to enjoy our trips, but the first time she came to know that part of being in a relationship with me was exercising together-- just as naturally as cooking together-- she was horrified. She, thankfully, has converted with gusto. I've come to believe and appreciate that women in good health look better without makeup and in sensible shoes. Eating well, exercising, and moisturizing, it seems to me, becomes the women I date more than any cover-up. I also don't have money, and anyone who spends more than five minutes with me knows that I probably won't ever have money, and I hate talking about money. I'm not terribly good-looking. I'm saying all this as a way to say Yes, you can retain a girlfriend for under 10 dollars a week, but I think it'll only work if you steer her to activities in your budget, and if it comes up, say your piece once and clearly. Few classes of people are more tiresome than cheap people who can't stop talking about money.
quote:There are some that wouldn't do it. That was a pretty good indication that they weren't for me, so I moved on. It was an efficient way for me to find the best wife I could have imagined.
She doesn't wear much (if any) makeup either, which I found very attractive. Some guys didn't, but I guess that helped her weed out the chumps and find me, too.
Yep.
quote:I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
Yep.
[ April 20, 2009, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202:
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Guess what they all have in common?
Three guesses. And the first two don't count.
*Don't ask if they're ugly. Don't ask if they're ugly. Don't ask if they're ugly.*
Are they ugly?
Nope. Several are seriously stunning, and all are at least moderately attractive.
quote:Originally posted by Speed:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Speed: I've never lived in a place like that. Do people really take the bus on a date?
People take the subway in NYC.
Kat's profile says she lives in Dallas.
Kat's profile is seriously out of date. If she wishes to elaborate, I'm sure she will. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Strict religions? My excuse is the opportunity hasn't presented itself but I'm trying to figure out how to get it to do that!!!! As I am a heathen.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I pay for dates, gifts, etc. because I want to, generally. Relationships where I felt I had to spend when I didn't want to, I walked away from pretty quickly. But it should be noted that, to me, the purpose of excess money is pretty much to make other people - usually ones I like - happy.
Exactly. I've been dating casually since my last relationship, and with the fun of being single comes my expectation that I'd pay for drinks and covers and so on. Now that I'm starting a new relationship, she and I are splitting costs about evenly.
Dates where I'm paying for most of it is, pretty expressly, a way of picking up a girl. If I like one enough to commit to a relationship, it'd better be on equal terms -- otherwise, I might as well be having fun playing the field.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I'm not married. I don't have sex.
:blinks: Am I reading this correctly that you are still a virgin at thirty-something? I entirely approve, you understand, it's just rather unusual and I'm wondering if I misunderstood you.
I could list at least a dozen of my friends that fit that bill.
Excellent! Wonderful! I can see I shall have to rephrase, though: "Unusual in my experience".
This seems pretty unusual to me as well. I did know a couple back when I was frequenting a rather charismatic bible-thumping church, but even there most of the thirty-somethings weren't virgins. Mostly, they just felt bad about that fact.
And for the record, their appearance did not correlate. This is also my personal experience, but it seems to me that people who want sex can find it, whatever they look like.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: In my experience, guys claim not to care about looks, not want someone to get fixed up, spend money and effort on their looks, but those same guys always end up dating the girls who do. I've seen this happen at least two dozen times with guys I'm friends with, over 3 decades. So my opinion is that guys may not realize it at the time, but they're unaware of their own selection criteria.
I've known guys like that as well. I've also known quite a few, including my husband, who really don't like makeup.
Like some others here, the idea that the guy should pay for the date because the woman is paying to doll her self up really disturbs me. I'm not sure why but the idea that this is some sort of fair trade really strikes me as an incredibly unhealthy attitude.
I do sometimes get really dolled up for a special event. It can be fun. But I don't do it to pay my husband for treating me to dinner. I don't do it so men will find me attractive. I do it because sometimes I enjoy being glamorously beautiful. I do it for me, because sometimes its nice to be Cinderella.
And if I felt I had to get really dolled up to be worth someone's attention, I wouldn't find it fun in the least. I really detest the idea that I might have to spend tons of money on my makeup, clothes and hair to be a desirable companion on a date. Anyone that is so shallow they wouldn't enjoy my company unless I'd put hours into improving how I look, isn't someone I'd ever want to date in the first place.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Ten dollars is entirely appropriate to budget for dating a girlfriend, if you're both in junior high.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
I believe that when you take a girl out to dinner you aught to pay for it. Going to the movies, ice skating, going to a concert, or seeing a play is different, the girl should pay for her own ticket.
I do like it when my girlfriend gets all "dolled up", but she rarely does and shes one of those people who looks stunning without make-up. I am very poor, and my current girlfriend is cool with doing cheap things, tho I do take her to the movies all the time....
BTW I'm an ugly person Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Omega M, Can I ask how old you are and what you are currently doing? It makes a difference. If you are a relatively young, going to school full time, have little income and are dating women in a similar situation you can get away with spending a lot less without being seen as cheap.
If you are young and poor but can come up with interesting stuff to do with a girl that doesn't cost money (besides sex), there are plenty of young girls who would be happy to be your girl friend.
If on the other hand you are an established professional with a decent salary its quite a bit different.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I like a certain amount of kohl on the eyes and a nice, flouncy skirt. It doesn't matter to me how much time was spent or how much the skirt cost; in fact, knowing that much time or money was spent is an active turnoff.
What I do want is someone who is bright and engaging. If they can't be bright and engaging without dressing up to give themselves confidence, fine. But I'd prefer otherwise.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Nope. Pretty women are more attractive, I agree, but it really doesn't matter what guys look like. So long as you have charisma and personality, you're good to go. I know plenty of knockouts dating fat dudes who can make them laugh.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
T:man -- you're absolutely not ugly. I know that just from reading your post. You're chivalrous because you feel you should provide for your date. You have good judgement because you feel your girlfriend looks stunning without makeup. You appreciate beauty because you like it when she get's "dolled up." You are not materialistic or shallow because you are comfortable with being "poor" and you have the good sense to spend the most precious gift of all -- your time on Earth -- with a woman who is cool with you the way you are. You're not ugly in the least. You may be homely (as am I) but if you were ugly you would be on here saying hurtful or defensive or phoney things.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: [qb] In my experience, guys claim not to care about looks, not want someone to get fixed up, spend money and effort on their looks, but those same guys always end up dating the girls who do. I've seen this happen at least two dozen times with guys I'm friends with, over 3 decades. So my opinion is that guys may not realize it at the time, but they're unaware of their own selection criteria.
I've known guys like that as well. I've also known quite a few, including my husband, who really don't like makeup.
Yeah. I do know guys who are attracted to the heavily made up look, some of whom are aware of it and some of whom aren't. I also know guys (and I'm one of them) who generally prefers how people look without makeup. I'm delighted that my girlfriend rarely wears the stuff.
quote:Like some others here, the idea that the guy should pay for the date because the woman is paying to doll her self up really disturbs me.
It doesn't disturb me, exactly, but I laughed aloud when I read kat's initial post about it, and was surprised when I realized that she wasn't kidding. It's a pretty foreign concept for me.
As for the whole question of paying on dates, I'm absolutely fine with picking up the tab. I'm also absolutely fine with my date doing so. I think that my ideal would be trading off, with one person picking up the tab on one date, and the other person picking it up on the other.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Omega M, Can I ask how old you are and what you are currently doing? It makes a difference. If you are a relatively young, going to school full time, have little income and are dating women in a similar situation you can get away with spending a lot less without being seen as cheap.
If you are young and poor but can come up with interesting stuff to do with a girl that doesn't cost money (besides sex), there are plenty of young girls who would be happy to be your girl friend.
If on the other hand you are an established professional with a decent salary its quite a bit different.
I don't know, that seems kind of soulless. I AM still a student, but even once I'm rich and powerful, the kind of things I like to do simply don't cost much. I like to think that won't change as I grow older... and I like to think the bright and fun girls I date now won't become expensive and boring women come middle age.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I like to think that won't change as I grow older...
Wait 'til you slow down and have kids. The expensive stuff can sneak up on you.
Ballet lessons for a toddler are $200 for two months.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think setting a money limit is a disaster waiting to happen. It isn't a $10 a week type of thing, but it doesn't have to be a $100 a date type of thing either.
When my wife and I started dating, we were both pretty poor and working at restaurants, so while I payed when I could, she carried a bit of it as well. Otherwise we wouldn't have gone out as much.
That being said, she offered to pay for her ticket to the movie the first night out, and I told her I'd pay so there wouldn't be any question if it was a date or as friends. We had known each other for about 9 months as friends/co-workers, and I wanted to be very specific about the fact that I was interested in her. She blushed, then said in a real small voice " O.K.".
If I had been insistent about paying for each date we would have seen a lot less of each other. We found a lot of things to do together that weren't expensive, and I payed when I could.
When she had something specific SHE really wanted to do, she'd make a point of saying " Let's go do xxx, my treat!", and it was cool.
It all depends on the people involved. I know that if she had taken issue with who payed I wouldn't have been interested in her, let alone interested in marrying her. I sure wouldn't expect her to include makeup, fitness, personal trainers or anything else like that as a "cost" of dating me, as I never asked her to do any of that at all. That would all be on her, just like my costs of nice clothes, shoes, and personal hygiene was for me.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I like to think that won't change as I grow older...
Wait 'til you slow down and have kids. The expensive stuff can sneak up on you.
Ballet lessons for a toddler are $200 for two months.
But a pile of dirt with sticks is free, and WAY more intellectually stimulating to a kid that age.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, let me tell you, I am going to laugh and laugh when you have girls. *grin*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Ballet lessons for a toddler are $200 for two months.
That's almost a hundred dollars a month!
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Ha. I'll spend my days cleaning my shotguns.
My condolences btw, are you the only dude in the house? Feel free to come crash in my pad if the estrogen gets overwhelming.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo:
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Nope. Pretty women are more attractive, I agree, but it really doesn't matter what guys look like. So long as you have charisma and personality, you're good to go. I know plenty of knockouts dating fat dudes who can make them laugh.
::snort::
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Flying Fish, you seriously made my day Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
One aspect of ritualized dating is that adults get to spend time around people of the opposite sex and get ideas about marriage. You see what aspects of people such as neuroses, morals, hygiene, values, likes and dislikes you want in a prospective mate, and which ones are deal-breakers. Even if an adult male is a full time student with big debt and a tight budget, $10 a week doesn't get two movie tickets and two happy meals. Dude, you better look like Brad Pitt and be as witty as Jerry Seinfeld to expect a woman to be happy with $10 a week. Or else, you're just a placeholder. She may date someone like that until something better comes along, or she may really like being with you and may be she's convinced your condition is very temporary. Eventually she or her friends or her parents will say, "Why doesn't that guy bus tables or deliver pizza or mow lawns or carry river rocks or something for 8 hours every Saturday so he can have a whopping 50$ a week with which to 'date'? You know, he doesn't seem very organized, or ambitious, or responsible."
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
Omega: You pay for experience. You pay because it presents an opportunity for a common experience with someone who may find you attractive in an environment that isn't threatening.
And, whether it's fair or not, you pay because to many women the ability to provide rings the same bells that physical attractiveness does for many men.
I understand the temptation to think of money you spend on a significant other as money that could have been spent on fun, physically material things (like the aforementioned CDs), especially in the wake of a break-up or rejection. But it's losing the battle before it's even started.
Are you such a splendid catch, so charming and courteous and dashing, that a girl should be willing to spend her own money in the process of spending time with you? Especially just when you're getting to know one another?
Enough so to compete with men who are willing to pick up the check?...
Alternatively, are you good enough at planning that you can find things to do together that won't strain your budget and show your significant other that she has your attention and affection even if you didn't put money into the endeavor?
These are not rhetorical questions.
Synesthesia: Based on what you've said alone, I knew a fair number of men in college who would have been thrilled to meet someone like you.
(Whether you would have found any of them attractive is another question, of course.)
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Just to be clear, I think it's really creepy to talk about any sort of trade off in money spent, as well.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
I'm glad I made your day. I hope I didn't just ruin someone else's.....
But seriously, the thing I said to you at 8:10 and the thing I said to anyone who would listen at 8:42 are the exact same things I would say to a son or a brother....
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: One aspect of ritualized dating is that adults get to spend time around people of the opposite sex and get ideas about marriage. You see what aspects of people such as neuroses, morals, hygiene, values, likes and dislikes you want in a prospective mate, and which ones are deal-breakers. Even if an adult male is a full time student with big debt and a tight budget, $10 a week doesn't get two movie tickets and two happy meals. Dude, you better look like Brad Pitt and be as witty as Jerry Seinfeld to expect a woman to be happy with $10 a week. Or else, you're just a placeholder. She may date someone like that until something better comes along, or she may really like being with you and may be she's convinced your condition is very temporary. Eventually she or her friends or her parents will say, "Why doesn't that guy bus tables or deliver pizza or mow lawns or carry river rocks or something for 8 hours every Saturday so he can have a whopping 50$ a week with which to 'date'? You know, he doesn't seem very organized, or ambitious, or responsible."
Hahahaaa, her parents definetely know my situation. Most of my money is going to pay for classes, and rent (I help my mom with rent). The rest of it goes almost straight to hanging out with her, tho there isn't much left >.>
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
paying for classes = ambitious, condition temporary
pays rent before spending "date" money = organized
helps mother with rent = responsible
Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
T:man, not that you need it from me, but you have my blessings.
And also, if someone else has made the conscious decision that regardless of his circumstances he only wants to invest $10 per week in dating, that man has my blessings, too. He also has my sincere prediction that he faces much disappointment.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
On the other hand, the potential MIL's presence/neediness in everyday life can sometimes be a pretty important red flag.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: Also, the kicker: takes care of his mother. Single women, take note. How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
I've been happily married for a decade, my wife will tell you that I treat her very well, and I haven't spoken to my mother since around 2002. Don't put too much faith in rules of thumb.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Warning, I'm on the warpath tonight.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Oh, let me tell you, I am going to laugh and laugh when you have girls. *grin*
You may find Lalo laughable but as a girl I find it insulting that you think that girls as toddlers have any need to be in ridiculously expensive ballet lessons. Be the adult and set some limits for heaven's sake. The people who run the classes are ripping you off: They are the ones who are laughing-- all the way to the bank.
As for the actual topic of the thread:
I don't particularly like being paid for unless I'm paying in return. As for the fact that the men pay for food because the women pretty themselves up, I find that utterly bizarre, like an incredibly mild form of prostitution. If I make an effort to look nice, I expect the person I'm going out with to match my effort.
And I have taken the bus on a date. And the subway, in fact. And I've walked. It's called "being poor". I don't expect someone to break his bank on my behalf (if he insists on paying) and if we're paying mutually or I'm paying I don't think I would ever break mine unless I had a really good reason to (e.g. a proposal).
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Speed, scifibum -- good points.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: ... How a man treats his Mother is the single greatest predictor of how he will treat a wife.
Especially in the case of that Oedipus guy.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
I was going to qualify that by saying he should have sex with the wife more.
That's it. I banish myself.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You may find Lalo laughable but as a girl I find it insulting that you think that girls as toddlers have any need to be in ridiculously expensive ballet lessons. Be the adult and set some limits for heaven's sake. The people who run the classes are ripping you off...
*grin* Would you like me to just list the misconceptions you're running with here, or would you like to take a minute to take a deep breath, think about what you know about me and my wife and our kids, and then consider maybe whether you want to rant? Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I find unusual things attractive such as acne scars, different coloured eyes and guys with single lidded eyes and a lot of tattoos that are interesting and non-Nazi. Especially horimono.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:grin* Would you like me to just list the misconceptions you're running with here, or would you like to take a minute to take a deep breath, think about what you know about me and my wife and our kids, and then consider maybe whether you want to rant? [Wink]
1. Your daughter doesn't actually take the lessons in question, you're just saying they do offer lessons 2. She's not a toddler, but they do offer lessons for toddlers, and you pity those parents. 3. Your child is actually some kind of prodigy and you want to give her arthritis at age 25. 4. You didn't correct Lalo because Lalo can get crazy and you're ignoring him. 5. Some parents *are* like this, even if they are very intelligent. Don't even get me started. 6. I'm really tired and explodey. If I explode in the wrong place, I apologise.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
1) Sophie doesn't actually take the lessons in question, but she really, really wants to in the way little girls really, really want things like dogs, ponies, and ballet lessons. This is what I was laughing at Lalo about; the idea that Sophie would accept a dirty stick as a substitute for ballet lessons fundamentally misunderstands why she wants ballet lessons in particular. *grin*
2) Christy and I are okay, now that Sophie's old enough to remember and benefit from more structured lessons, with paying a reasonable amount for structured lessons. And believe it or not, $200 is actually a reasonable, non-ripoff price for 10 lessons around here; "ridiculously expensive" they are not, especially when compared to the actually ridiculous ones. That said, it still seems to us that the biggest advantage of a formal class at this age is just the socialization aspect; I have trouble believing that a professional instructor can teach Sophie $200 more dance steps than I can. So we've opted out so far, although the time will come -- probably in another year or so -- when we opt in.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Oh, let me tell you, I am going to laugh and laugh when you have girls. *grin*
HAH!
Karate (or kung fu) lessons are just as expensive, if not more so.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well, 1) Not all little girls want ballet lessons that way.
2) Case in point, I cried and wouldn't leave my mothers legs on my first day in Ballet class because I really, really didn't want to go. I think it depends on what you latch on to. Some of us did play with sticks and swings.
I was four or five. I guess that's pretty young. There's no video evidence of me, but there is in later years. Social is right: some kids follow some of the steps... others just sort of stand there and spin. I remember distinctly that one little girl peed on the stage. Not to put you off or anything .
As for the cost, I was assuming eight lessons in two months, which puts the cost over $20 which is more expensive than private piano lessons per hour. How do you get 10 lessons in two months?
EDIT: I had a customer say to me the other day, "Gosh, girls are so expensive, with their little dresses and everything."
I think I see a lot of parents who have more money than sense. If you think you're spending too much on your children's dresses...
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I would have gladly taken the stick over dance classes. My mom enrolled me in classes and I drove teacher nuts for weeks because I refused to participate and would spend the entire hour sitting on my own, perfectly content.
Some of my fondest memories are playing in my yard and mixing weedy flowers and hose water into a faerie potion that I would try to feed to my brothers.
Oh, and I only barely tolerated the family dogs and was terrified of all strange dogs. I also hated horses and only played with the plastic ponies during above-stated dance classes.
Lalo, just do what my mother did. Pray really hard for a girly-girl who loves baking and dance classes, and you'll get a stubborn geeky kid who loves puzzles and make-believe as long as it involves dirt instead of dolls.
Stereotypical ideas about girls is exactly why I hated most of my elementary school teachers.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
It amazed me to discover just how much dance classes cost. The city parks and rec classes here are filled within ten minutes of registration opening. The nearby gym that just opened charged around ten times as much as the city did for classes that sounded extremely similar from the descriptions.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
On a first date, I (female) always offer to split the bill out of courtesy. That said, I have a slight expectation that the guy will refuse my offer and cover the bill. When guys willingly spend money on dating me, it makes me feel better about them and about spending money on them. With relationships I've had where the guy was stingy, I found myself wanting to go out less because there was this awkwardness of who would cover the bill. With guys that spent generously, I've always been quick to reciprocate and been grateful that wasn't an issue. If they insist on covering the first bill, I'll happily insist on getting the second.
But I can not remember the last time I spent $10 on a night out. Dinner and a movie for two is generally going to be $50. I think that's a more realistic weekly budget.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Lalo, just do what my mother did. Pray really hard for a girly-girl who loves baking and dance classes, and you'll get a stubborn geeky kid who loves puzzles and make-believe as long as it involves dirt instead of dolls.
Stereotypical ideas about girls is exactly why I hated most of my elementary school teachers.
Haha, I'm actually kind of fond of the girly-girl types too. Kids in India and Italy and New York are all basically the same, flipping them around gets happy reactions. I swear I'm going to be an elementary schoolteacher if I ever tire of this whole law thing, I love chilling with little kids.
God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
Amen, halleluyah.
>_<
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
As I said earlier, I am happy to pay for a date. On first dates, I go into it expecting that I'll be picking up the tab. However, I also have a policy of not playing games with money. I really dislike the game of "'oh, no, let me pay.' 'No, I insist, let me'". If someone offers to pick up the tab, I let them.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo:
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I think anyone who says pretty girls don't get more attention is being naive. Equally anyone who says hot guys don't get more attention is also being naive. At least women have a way of faking being attractive.
Nope. Pretty women are more attractive, I agree, but it really doesn't matter what guys look like. So long as you have charisma and personality, you're good to go. I know plenty of knockouts dating fat dudes who can make them laugh.
Eh, sure, women are faster to get over the physical impression than men are, but still before personality and confidence and all that comes into account, one has to attract a person to them, which is generally based on looks.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: As I said earlier, I am happy to pay for a date. On first dates, I go into it expecting that I'll be picking up the tab. However, I also have a policy of not playing games with money. I really dislike the game of "'oh, no, let me pay.' 'No, I insist, let me'". If someone offers to pick up the tab, I let them.
Amen to that. I hate the fakeness of that game. I sometimes pay for the date, but if the girl asks to pay her part, I just say "ok" and move on.
Also, my dates/girlfriends usually wanted to know if they didn't put on too much make-up as they knew I really dislike it. If I like you when I meet you in a non-date situation, I will like you if you look the same while on the date, it's as simple as that. A cute dress? It can be a plus. Painting your face, not so much.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo:
God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
I imagine there would be trouble when she borrowed your bubble gum body wash or your Judy Blume collection without asking, but wouldn't it all be worth it to have someone with whom you could connect on an intellectual level?
[ April 21, 2009, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Again, not all teenagers are mirror-obsessed. They can care about their appearance without being vapid. It's all in how you raise them.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Teshi, nature vs. nurture is not anywhere near as clear-cut as that.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Yeah.
(It's really interesting seeing how my 13 year old sister is compared to a (much older) me at her age. Same upbringing, very different kids.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
One post a year, and that's how you spend it?
No accounting for taste.
(Hi, Frisco!)
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:Originally posted by Frisco:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo:
God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
I imagine there would be trouble when she borrowed your bubble gum body wash or your Judy Blume collection without asking, but wouldn't it all be worth it to have someone with whom you could connect on an intellectual level?
This whole conversation is so amusing.
Teenage girls? What's that about? After two boys, I had one little girl and it was on. Kingdoms came crashing to the ground. My life was never the same.
I relish every insane moment.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
A couple of thoughts:
To me, the amount one spends on a date should bear some relationship to how much one can spend on a date. If one person has a lot of money and one person has very little and the person with a lot of money wants to do expensive things and is happy and able to pay, great. The person with less cash can plan less expensive activities, cook at home whatever.
How a person reacts to your not having a lot of money is an indication of what is important to that person. Is he or she only or too interested in how much you can spend? Does that indicate how willing that person would be to be with you in bad times?
(This is a different issue than how much you are willing to spend. If you have money and don't want to spend it on dating are you being responsible or are you being cheap? Could be either. How does this reflect how you feel about the relationship?)
It can be tricky when one person has a lot more disposable income and I suggest that some carefully applied socialism is helpful here. I tend to do my best to contribute what I reasonably can afford and then try not to worry that he is contributing more. He tries to refrain from giving me handfuls of cash.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
This doesn't bear directly on the subject of how much money to spend on dating. Rather, having now been back in the dating environment for the past five years, I have been able to make some observations that have seemed to hold true for me and my experiences. For me, these have simply come to be socialogical observations (though I may ramble).
1) Biological imperatives play a role in what we find attractive. We would be stupid not to recognize that. To what extent, or how those imperatives manifest varies with each individual, though there are general tendencies both male and females seem to have (again, variations apply.) Therefore, it is fruitless to rail against the 'unfairness of it all' or to think men or women are simply shallow for being attracted to specific traits (though, in fact many are shallow when those are ALL they look at. One girl I dated was attractive...but just dull...so dull, though it wasn't readily apparant at the beginning). Rather, you must simply recognize those imperatives exists and simply decide how much you want to let those affect you, both in what you do to BE attractive, and in what you CHOOSE (to a certain extent) what is attractive to you.
2) Attraction, at the beginning, has the simple purpose of keeping someone interested enough that they stay around to get to know the you on the inside, so as to decide whether you two should get together (and you them). Therefore, it is not the end-all and be-all of dating. But it is not stupid or pointless either. It's ONE WAY we sift through potential mating opportunities/partners. Again, what you choose to do about that is your business and right. But obviously what you do can affect your results. (And I don't advocate being something you're not or being purely about the external. Personally, I work out, dress well and groom myself because it's an expression of my own self-respect and dignity. But I'd be a liar not to admit that I know it obviously increases the initial attraction I might have to the opposite sex. But again I'm also not gonna fake what I am, nor will I compromise what I am looking for. I try to be the best me I can be, period.)
3) I don't believe in "the one". I believe some people fit better than others, that's all. And you will find that 'better fit' many times in your life, but it still may never happen for a number of reasons: they're already married, you're already in a relationship, you have different goals in life, different circumstances, too young, etc... So if it doesn't work out, whether they were that 'better fit' or not, it's not always a judgment on your fitness (though it might be- if you're a jerk, after all, don't be surprised when it never works) but rather simply that it wouldn't work between you. (Easier said than done. But I'm still really close with an ex-girlfriend because we both recognized we were forcing it. Heck, I have a better relationship now with my ex-wife than I ever did married, though it wasn't something I would have chosen to end.) It's like docking ships in space. A lot of things have to line up or be equal. Marriage is hard enough as it is. It should be about 2 stable individuals choosing to be with each other out of love and commitment. It should be a healthy thing. Forcing something because of desperate loneliness, fear, codependency, resignation or rampant horniness, is a recipe for a miserable marriage- and nothing is more lonely than a miserable marriage. Not by a long shot.
Anyway, those are my observations. We all try to do what we can in this...I don't like the word game, but there are rules and there are consequences/realities of our actions. Obviously my experiences are limited by my own life (only one, so far ). But we do what we must to maximize the potential we have to meet someone we click with on all the levels necessary for a stable happy marriage.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Frisco:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo:
God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
I imagine there would be trouble when she borrowed your bubble gum body wash or your Judy Blume collection without asking, but wouldn't it all be worth it to have someone with whom you could connect on an intellectual level?
If I wanted someone who'd get weepy over Twilight while curling their long hair and dreaming about boys... I'd adopt you. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I can't find girls who don't want to insist that we split the cost of dates evenly. Can not. I connect with different girls. We're both just paying our own way.
And dates are pretty damn fun the way we do them. 'date costs' are typically that of copious amounts of alcohol and a great concert to shout ourselves hoarse at.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
aaaw, the Eddie-Eddie romance... brings out the memories.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I pay for dates, gifts, etc. because I want to, generally. Relationships where I felt I had to spend when I didn't want to, I walked away from pretty quickly. But it should be noted that, to me, the purpose of excess money is pretty much to make other people - usually ones I like - happy.
I think you've got the best take on why (when financially able) a guy might want to pay for anything, ever. I've tried to pay for food, etc., when my fiance and I are out, and he would rather pay himself (this was his take before engagment, too). It doesn't seem a natural response for me to take extra time to get ready or put on extra make-up or anything fancy either (unless we're going to the orchestra again, of course, courtesy of his parents season tickets). What I do do for him kinda/sorta in response is make dinner on certain nights and other little things of that nature. I have to buy the food to make it, but I also have to put some work into preparing it. I think the more you're willing to put into a relationship, not just money but time and effort, etc., etc., the better off you both are as well as the relationship itself. As I reread that, it comes to mind that having recently accepted an engagement ring, that was a lot harder to accept not because I wanted to turn him down (I didn't!), but because I knew the expense was far greater than any other to date. He considers that an investment in US in the long run and not just in ME.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: My husband ended up spending a bit of money courting me, but that was largely because we were long distance for a while and plane tickets are expensive. He says it was a good investment.
That seems to go hand in hand with MrSquicky's take. I like it.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: This is all just one big mating/courtship ritual. If you're not interested in the potential outcomes of such a ritual, then no, it's not worth it to spend any money on girls. It's also not worth it to date.
Agreed.
KoM, it may make you even more thrilled to note that katharina isn't the only (nearly) thirty something around here who has that approach to sex and marriage.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What? I missed the part where I was talked about.
...
Oh, yep. I'm a virgin, and most of the single men and women in my acquaintance are as well. I don't know exactly who and how many, because it isn't any of my business who is and isn't. I assume that not all of them, but a very large percentage.
It's because I'm Mormon and I agree with the Lord's law of chastity, which is chastity before marriage and fidelity within.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Teshi, nature vs. nurture is not anywhere near as clear-cut as that.
Perhaps. I know I have what are perhaps unusual views about the importance of relationship between children and parents. But I presume that Lalo is talking about extreme vapidity, not fifteen minutes with a hair drier.
I'm really going off topic here but think ever since we discovered genes we've been giving them too much credit for behavioral traits.
I see quite a strong correlation between the behavior of parents and children wherever I go, whether the children are adopted or not. If you devalue vapidity, even children who may lean that way can be de-vapidized, as it were, to a fairly significant extent.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
One more question for Omega M, How much do you spend on entertainment in an average week when you don't have a girl friend? Are you talking about spending $10 more than you spend if you go out for Pizza or a movie with the guys or $10 total?
I also noticed that many of you seem to equate a date with dinner and a movie. By that definition I'm not sure my husband and I had more than half a dozen dates in the 4 years we spent dating before we got married.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Omega, In my experience, what's required in dating very much depends on what you want to get out of it.
If you're just out looking for a bit of fun (of the squelchy kind or not) you'll likely be spending effort and energy in proportion to how much the the people you want want you. Also, because you're likely to be switching around a lot, the initial costs are higher but you generally don't have to worry about presents for birthdays, Christmas, etc. This can be an awful lot of fun, but you're not really building strong emotional bonds or anything that is really going to last, so you're not really investing in anything other than a good time.
The middle ground where you have a relationship but it's one that is unlikely to end up with you two being together for the rest of your lives, honestly, I don't have much experience with. I never got much out of this one, so I tended to get out of them as soon as I realized I was in them. It sounds like this might be what you are looking for, so I don't know how much advice that is directly relevant I can give.
For a serious relationship, I've found that it's very hard to get the benefits of one of these if you are actively pursuing the benefits. These have only ever worked for me when I was intensely interested in the other person for their own sake, not for what I was getting out of it. If you do that and the other person is worthy of this trust and is looking out for you, you can get some pretty great benefits, but you just don't get there by trying to get there.
[ April 21, 2009, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:It's because I'm Mormon and I agree with the Lord's law of chastity, which is chastity before marriage and fidelity within.
Excellent! So do I, for theists that is. I am always glad to see justice being done. And self-inflicted at that! Keep on as you are doing, or rather not doing.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
On the attractiveness thing, I think there's a wide difference between being the belle of the ball who makes the other girls jealous and is flocked around by cute boys and finding people who are good for you to date.
Pursuit of the first goal I could see being pretty expensive in terms of both Cosmo-type beauty costs and effort, but the second nowhere near as much.
As I've said, it's all about the guys you are looking for. If you want the guys that are of a type that give primary importance to physical attractiveness, that's probably what you are going to find, but that's not anywhere near the story with all guys everywhere. Saying that it is sounds a lot like the guys who bemoan that all girls seem to want guys who are jerks.
---
For me, I met my fiancee through a volleyball league. She's hot enough that when she goes out, even when I'm out with her, random guys will hit on her, but for the first 9 months I knew her, I saw her in gym clothes without any makeup on and usually pretty sweaty. And, while I flirted with her a fair bit, I only really got seriously interested in her because of character-type things she did (one that sticks out is when she took an hour of her scarce free time on a Wednesday night when we were all out at a bar after our respective games to help a friend out with a legal problem).
I never did see her all dressed up until our first date. She was a knock-out, but, honestly, I've dated more attractive girls. That I walked out of that date thinking that she was probably the girl that I was going to marry had very little to do with how she looked (especially how much eye shadow, etc. she had on).
[ April 21, 2009, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Appearance is a resume'. It might get you noticed, but you still have to ace the interview.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
qft
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Appearance is a resume'. It might get you noticed, but you still have to ace the interview.
QFT
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:It's because I'm Mormon and I agree with the Lord's law of chastity, which is chastity before marriage and fidelity within.
Excellent! So do I, for theists that is. I am always glad to see justice being done. And self-inflicted at that! Keep on as you are doing, or rather not doing.
Um, does that mean you're hoping the atheists are going at it like rabbits?... Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I was a virgin until married, but that happened at twenty-nine, so I guess I don't count.
As to the original question, I think that rather than looking at how much you spend on your girlfriend in comparison to how much others do, you should look at it in comparison to what else you spend money on. If you're trying to stay at $10/week to spend on your girlfriend, but you're spending $30 a week on Starbucks for yourself, then perhaps something is out of whack.
The fourth time I saw my (now) wife wearing make-up was at our wedding (and the other three times were other weddings). It's been maybe ten times ever by now.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:It's because I'm Mormon and I agree with the Lord's law of chastity, which is chastity before marriage and fidelity within.
Excellent! So do I, for theists that is. I am always glad to see justice being done. And self-inflicted at that! Keep on as you are doing, or rather not doing.
It's a shame pompous atheists don't have a chastity rule as well, the world would be a far more polite place in a generation or so.
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: God help me if I wind up with a teenage daughter though. Kill me now.
I'll have one in ~11 years and my wife thinks I should give up cigarettes...
Posted by Godric 2.0 (Member # 11443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Papa Moose: The fourth time I saw my (now) wife wearing make-up was at our wedding (and the other three times were other weddings). It's been maybe ten times ever by now.
Do wives have a trade in program? Where can I get your model?
...
...
...
I'm kidding! I'm kidding! I love mine! Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: As for the cost, I was assuming eight lessons in two months, which puts the cost over $20 which is more expensive than private piano lessons per hour.
You think 20 bucks an hour is way more expensive than private piano lessons?!
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I could easily date for ten bucks a week.
I go on pretty much only free dates. Or dutch.
If the girl isn't happy with that then we don't date, which seems to be a system everyone can live with. I'm not cheap, even when I have money, though, so maybe the fact that I have given serious thought to why I don't pay on dates makes a difference.
I doubt it, though.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dood. Some guy should buy me MOTH COCOONS and Crysallids and find some on the ground. That would make me happy.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:It's because I'm Mormon and I agree with the Lord's law of chastity, which is chastity before marriage and fidelity within.
Excellent! So do I, for theists that is. I am always glad to see justice being done. And self-inflicted at that! Keep on as you are doing, or rather not doing.
It's a shame pompous atheists don't have a chastity rule as well, the world would be a far more polite place in a generation or so.
You don't know many Atheists do you?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:You think 20 bucks an hour is way more expensive than private piano lessons?!
I didn't say "way", but $25 (200/8) I'd put at the decent end of piano lessons, heading into the $30s for good private lessons and into the mid to late teens for cheap.
I also probably depends where you live. I suspect in California, prices are perhaps higher.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
It wouldn't be surprising if ballet lessons did cost more. There are fewer people qualified to teach ballet lessons than there are people qualified to teach piano lessons, and holding ballet lessons requires a considerable amount of space with very specific requirements. Space is expensive.
edit: the only thing bringing down costs is that multiple children can be taught at once, and in places where space is at a premium, that effect won't be sufficient.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Ballet lessons were starting to cost more and more as our daughter's age required that she start taking more and more lessons per week, and the studio was moving across town.
I honestly did not want to become one of those stories you hear about at the Olympics--where the parents drove their daughter or son to classes 300 miles each way each week for years and years and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on lessons. Or simply watching our daughter's life narrow down to one thing only.
We switched her to a gymnastics class that is close to home and much more low key, and are paying much less per month. She did miss ballet for a while, but now she's doing cartwheels and back walkovers all over the house.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
fugu: At many dance schools, the people teaching the very youngest kids are students themselves.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Last time I took voice lessons here they cost, at a minimum, a dollar a minute and that was years ago.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Teshi: sure, but that still requires a highly qualified head instructor, who is in some part responsible for making sure the instruction of the youngest kids goes well.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Works great for physician's assistants! [/sarcasm]
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Maybe my problem was that I always had to spend money on my girlfriend to do things I couldn't have cared less about, like going to concerts and shows. I really have no desire to go to events or on vacations or things like that. Going to movies is all right. Have I shrunk my chances of meeting someone to almost nothing?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:You think 20 bucks an hour is way more expensive than private piano lessons?!
I didn't say "way", but $25 (200/8) I'd put at the decent end of piano lessons, heading into the $30s for good private lessons and into the mid to late teens for cheap.
I also probably depends where you live. I suspect in California, prices are perhaps higher.
In California it's much higher, but it's higher than what you're quoting in both Louisiana and Montana.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: On a first date, I (female) always offer to split the bill out of courtesy. That said, I have a slight expectation that the guy will refuse my offer and cover the bill. When guys willingly spend money on dating me, it makes me feel better about them and about spending money on them. With relationships I've had where the guy was stingy, I found myself wanting to go out less because there was this awkwardness of who would cover the bill. With guys that spent generously, I've always been quick to reciprocate and been grateful that wasn't an issue. If they insist on covering the first bill, I'll happily insist on getting the second.
But I can not remember the last time I spent $10 on a night out. Dinner and a movie for two is generally going to be $50. I think that's a more realistic weekly budget.
You rock.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: katharina, I think, for the first time ever, I agree with you.
I like girls all prettied up, and I'm happy to pay for them on dates.
Yes. I agree also. I think men should pay for EVERYTHING. The house, the car, the dinners, the movies. Everything. The women should stay in the house, no jobs, no social lives. They should exist to cook me dinner and provide me with sex. Yes. This is the way things ought to be.
They say women make 71 cents on the dollar compared to men. Obviously this is the way things should be, but it really should be less- in fact, women should not be allowed to work. Yes. This is totally reasonable.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Maybe my problem was that I always had to spend money on my girlfriend to do things I couldn't have cared less about, like going to concerts and shows. I really have no desire to go to events or on vacations or things like that. Going to movies is all right. Have I shrunk my chances of meeting someone to almost nothing?
Omega, What things do you like to do? If you are trying to date women who aren't interested in doing the things you like to do, that's the problem right there.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:You think 20 bucks an hour is way more expensive than private piano lessons?!
I didn't say "way", but $25 (200/8) I'd put at the decent end of piano lessons, heading into the $30s for good private lessons and into the mid to late teens for cheap.
I also probably depends where you live. I suspect in California, prices are perhaps higher.
In California it's much higher, but it's higher than what you're quoting in both Louisiana and Montana.
My university payed my guitar instructor around 50 dollars for a half hour lesson once a week. That's not unreasonable for a very exclusive teacher. I wouldn't give guitar lessons myself for less than 25 dollars a 45 minute lesson.
I've had to work out my feelings about giving lessons to people in the past 6 months because I've been living on my income from private teaching. There is a certain kind of student that gets you to come down to the smallest fee possible, then proceeds to commit exactly that much of their attention to your lessons- you're cheap, so you can be treated as such. I frankly refuse to teach people who even ask me to teach for less than my minimum rate, which is 350 kc per 45 minutes (about 18 dollars), and I try to avoid people who try to get me to lower my price at all- I've found that people who are willing to take you at your word as to how much your time is worth, are also more dependable as students and have much more respect for you as a teacher. It's a pretty tricky business, but in my opinion, if you're unwilling to commit a meaningful amount of money to your lessons, then you are probably unwilling to make a meaningful effort when it comes to keeping your appointments, studying, etc. My biggest mistake as a new teacher was offering someone a discount because she wanted to have me teach herself and her children for a large number of hours a week. Of three appointments that we keep each week, she regularly cancels at least one, and sometimes two- that's six hours out of my week, every week, in which I am not certain I will be payed.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My brother-in-law charged $25/lesson in TX for 1-hour lessons to small children; he was an experienced player but inexperienced teacher of piano.
My kids' dance studio charges $15/lesson for walk-ins per 45 min.-1 hr. lesson; less if you pay by the month, even less if you give them a credit card on file or pre-pay 4 months in advance, plus a $25/year registration fee ($45/year for a family where more than one kid attends) and that includes a t-shirt. Recital and costume fees (and tickets) are separate. Private lessons are $30/hour.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Maybe my problem was that I always had to spend money on my girlfriend to do things I couldn't have cared less about, like going to concerts and shows. I really have no desire to go to events or on vacations or things like that. Going to movies is all right. Have I shrunk my chances of meeting someone to almost nothing?
Not at all. It sounds, instead, like you need to find a way to meet girls who are interested in the same things you are. I'm not all that into going to shows or concerts, so I know we exist. I'm kind of a homebody. I like to stay in, rent a movie, have food delivered to my door, and possibly play games. I like to go out every once in a while.
I don't know if that's the kind of thing you're into or not but if you are then here's the difficulty: The girls you're looking for are sitting at home, not sure how to connect with other people who like the same things. Sucks, doesn't it?
I managed to find someone, so it can be done. Just be patient.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Orin,
Why aren't you charging them anyway when they cancel?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm wondering that too.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
So really it may not be a matter of budget at all. It sounds like you're not into a big "social" life. One problem you're going to run into is that for a lot of young single people, dating isn't just about trying out potential mates, it's about getting out of the house and going to go do things. There's a website called meetup.com, and when you put in your zip code you can find groups interested in social activities, including TV and board games.
I am, by nature, a lot like you. My first choice of fun is usually sitting at home and being by myself. But as a practical matter, I usually force myself to go "places" and go "do things."
It is possible to go years alone in your house without a single pretty woman breaking in and forcing you to have conversation, or an unexpected friend kidnapping you and dragging you out to some activity which turns out to be more fun than you imagined.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
No, I'm really not into a big social life. I like to go to gym, though I don't go as much as I should, so I'd like to find a girl of similar fitness level that I could work out with. The movies are also okay, as I said.
Concerts and other shows are not that great because you spend way too much time waiting for them to start, finding parking, etc.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Concerts and other shows are not that great because you spend way too much time waiting for them to start, finding parking, etc.
[tangent]Only if your enjoyment is entirely dependent on the concert itself and every other event detracts from it. Assuming I'm going to a concert with friends or a girlfriend, then the ride down turns into a fun trip, getting there early and tailgating(if it's nice weather) is a fun precursor, getting in and checking out opening acts can be a real joy and surprise. In short...if I'm with people I enjoy being with, then the concert itself is just one aspect of the overall enjoyment of the experience. [/tangent]
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
I hope my tone didn't come across as snarky. The plain fact is that you're certain not to find fun and interesting people at home, you've got to get into circulation to increase your odds. And there are a lot of activities which don't involve crowds, long lines, or spending a lot of money (or any money). Volunteer activities, church activities, rec-club classes.... You may just need to think outside the box. Best of luck. Be true to yourself, trust, and take positive steps.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Orin,
Why aren't you charging them anyway when they cancel?
That's an excellent question. The answer is that for most students I do, but generally the rule is that cancellations must be made 24 hours in advance of a lesson. This particular student usually manages to cancel on time. I have had to speak to her a couple of times about the fact that my schedule is being filled with her cancellations, and I would drop her, except that when I do actually work, it's good money. It's a bit of a catch 22- she's cheap, but when she pays, it's not bad.
Other students pay me at least on lesson in advance, and understand that a late cancellation means forfeiture of that fee. The problem is that with private lessons, it's not always possible to nail students down to paying more than a few lessons in advance. They are aware of their power in the relationship, which is not good for me as a teacher, but is also inevitable. When there are people in the market charging half what I charge, I need to take care to cultivate relationships in which I appear to be flexible, but not breakable.
(Add to all that, btw, that I am not billing some of these students formally, but instead working for cash, as I don't yet have my business license. That's standard procedure here, and most teachers work for cash, but it has obvious consequences. Many students, aware of the dilemma, will actually refuse to be billed formally because they don't wish to contribute any of the cost of their lessons to taxes- their attitude is that if you bill them at 400, and pay taxes, they are paying 10% too much. You can tell me this is not a good situation, and I agree, but I'm making money doing it that I would not have otherwise.)
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
That all sounds reasonable, but I would strongly consider changing my policy to require an additional 24 hours notice for each additional cancellation beyond, say, three times.
So if she cancels on you for the fourth time she has to do it 48 hours prior, the fifth time 72 hours prior, etc.
Basically you're just forcing her to either begin showing up, paying for lessons regardless, or find another teacher. I would consider all of those results an improvement over the situation you described. But then, you're in it, so I'm sure I don't have the full picture.
Posted by Mouette (Member # 12038) on :
This might be a strange place for my first post, but oh well. I've lurked on Hatrack for... years, off and on, so I guess I'm finally uncloaking and jumping in the water.
I seem to be in the same type of boat as Synethesia, really: I like guy things or geeky things, the sort of things guys seem to say "Oh, I'd date anyone who did/liked X", but I've never dated or been asked out on a date - the only relationship I've had was online, and that didn't go very well. I play WoW, I'm a Star Wars geek, I read fantasy, I want to learn how to play D&D... typical geeky things, I guess. (I also read OSC and read forums ).
And it's not like I don't know *why* I don't date; I'm a quiet, reserved, intelligent, overweight woman. It's not a good combination for competing with outgoing, giggly, prettily made-up girls my age - perhaps the playing field will level a bit when I get older (i'm 23, and in my first semester of law school), but right now it seems there's little point in trying to find a guy to have a relationship with when there are oodles of girls my age who are, for lack of a better term, physically superior to me.
How much does weight affect dating/attractiveness? I am laid back, easy to get along with - honestly, Omega *could* date me for 10$ a week. I'd much prefer hanging out at home, watching a movie, talking, etc, honestly getting to know each other or doing simple things on a date. Dinner and a movie is fun, but it seems that you wouldn't really get to know a person if that's all you did. I know I "need to lose weight for myself", and all the other encouragements/advice for losing weight, but is it absurd to think that a guy could look past that and be interested in *me*? Or am I having unrealistic dreams by thinking that way?
I'm interested in what y'all (especially those who have dated/married) think about whether factors such as interest in things most 'normal', better-looking girls wouldn't like (WoW) can outweigh things like looks, weight, or shyness.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
So, I might be stereotyping, but when you said law school, my first thought was, well there's your problem.
ETA- I shouldn't say might be as there is no might about it.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mouette: I'm interested in what y'all (especially those who have dated/married) think about whether factors such as interest in things most 'normal', better-looking girls wouldn't like (WoW) can outweigh things like looks, weight, or shyness.
It really depends. I haven't dated a lot of girls but I managed to date a slightly plump girl and a thin as paper girl. The one with the most weight-related insecurities was the thin one, and it was those insecurities that were a turn off, not her body. The other one didn't really care and neither did I. I was more interested in how she kept her hair (loved it long), so I guess I was being shallow in my own way. I didn't even have many interests in common with this girl, it just happened that we got along well and started liking each other. The relationship did end, but I doubt that having common interests would have kept us longer together.
So I guess the biggest problem is making yourself known, getting rid of your shyness. Your looks may be a problem for some people, but if they don't *know* you there's little chance they'll fall in love with you. Saying this is a bit ironic since I'm also not doing enough to meet girls, so no matter how well I look ( ) if nobody looks at me it ain't going to help (or hinder).
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: That all sounds reasonable, but I would strongly consider changing my policy to require an additional 24 hours notice for each additional cancellation beyond, say, three times.
So if she cancels on you for the fourth time she has to do it 48 hours prior, the fifth time 72 hours prior, etc.
Basically you're just forcing her to either begin showing up, paying for lessons regardless, or find another teacher. I would consider all of those results an improvement over the situation you described. But then, you're in it, so I'm sure I don't have the full picture.
I'll think about that. Something is going to have to change come july, because she has asked me to begin teacher at her house for 3 hours a day. I have put it to her in very clear terms that in order for me to live in the city during the summer, I am depending on the work she has offered me- otherwise I will have to go somewhere else. As such, I am considering asking her to pay for the whole month at once, for some nominal discount. The very last thing I want is for her to be calling me every other day to cancel if I am using her fees to pay my rent. I'm also going to be looking for additional summer work to supplement and insure my upkeep.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:How much does weight affect dating/attractiveness? I am laid back, easy to get along with - honestly, Omega *could* date me for 10$ a week.
You sound super hip, but I don't date overweight women. Other people do, but I think to myself, if she is this big now, at 40, she is going to be the size of a planet. For me, dating someone who can't keep their figure is like dating someone who doesn't read. Huge alarms go off in my head. I say, and my advice is worth as you are paying for it, if you have the foresight to spend 3 years towards a law degree, you can spend seven months to adjust your shape. Take yourself off the market for a year and a half, study and workout with equal vigor, and in a year, you'll be a 24 year old, smoking hot rising third year. The mountain will come to you.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Wow. Dude. You are missing out. Seriously. Not everyone can mainten a super skinny figure for an assortment of reasons that don't always have to do with lack of discipline. Me, I sort of lean towards skinny Asian guys (Like KAORU) But I'm open to all sorts of dudes. Squishy cuddly chubby guys, lunky muscly guys, guys of all kinds of races. As long as the guy isn't a jerk, isn't abusive and doesn't hate rabbits, I'm open.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
The issue isn't super skinny it is overweight. And the question, for me, would be how much overweight? If the weight looks unhealthy, I am not going to think about someone as a life partner. Health is important- I also would not be with someone who was superskinny and looked unhealthy that way. And of course, I want someone who can physically keep up with me. I don't do much physical stuff, but if I want to go hiking, he should be able to handle it (I guess that is connected to common interests).
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I was going to say something, but decided against it. After all, when it comes to dating, you really can be as discriminating as you wish. So if I say I won't date overweight men or men who smoke, or religious men, or black men, that's alright.
*shrug*
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I tend to crush on men who smoke... But I'd have to draw the line at strictly religious guys who think my role is to obey them. Ugh. Such guys can stay away from me. They'll tell me what to do. I don't like that.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:The answer is that for most students I do, but generally the rule is that cancellations must be made 24 hours in advance of a lesson.
My daughter had a trombone teacher who was like that. His time was too valuable to whether his plans messed up our plans, so he'd leave a message on our machine on Friday night telling us that he'd just changed the time for her lesson the next day, or that he'd canceled the lesson entirely. And he always explained that he had a concert or something that he should have known about weeks or even months in advance.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mouette: I'm interested in what y'all (especially those who have dated/married) think about whether factors such as interest in things most 'normal', better-looking girls wouldn't like (WoW) can outweigh things like looks, weight, or shyness.
Wow, isn't this a sensitive topic?
Ok, I'm going to try the blunt approach, but please take this with a grain of salt. I myself am introverted, like to stay at home, and have struggled with weight my entire life. At your age, I was about 220 pounds. I lost 80 of it, which my husband (when we started dating) said was too skinny for my frame. I'm currently 20 pounds heavier than his ideal (which I've decided is the only standard I care about), largely due to pregnancy. And today I ate about 6 cookies. Diet restarts tomorrow!
There are two things going against you, and it's hard to separate them. The weight is a problem, and so is the being in front of your computer playing W0W instead of being around eligible young bachelors. Would it be easier if you were a 5'10" 130-lb blond? Yeah, because men would hit on you if you so much as went to the grocery store. But even the blond would have some trouble finding the right guy if she didn't work at it a bit.
An outgoing girl who has a few extra pounds is likely to have a lot more options, including men who don't mind the extra weight. There are men out there who are attracted to even obese girls, and the only way to find them is to go out and be there.
Of course, dating isn't even easy for attractive, outgoing girls. It can be easy to fall for all the wrong men.
From my personal experience, the best thing I ever did was to lose the weight. I had more energy, I felt better in my clothes, I got to wear more interesting clothes, men started to look at me, and my self-esteem went up a couple of notches. And trust me, I know what the bottom of the self-esteem ladder looks like.
When I went from 220 to 140 lbs, even STRANGERS ON THE STREET started treating me better. I'd get looks, people would come up and talk to me, eevn just to ask for directions. And it wasn't just men. Women treated me better too.
It is not right and it is not fair but it is true.
Weight is about more than appearance, especially when you're dating. It is perceived (whether or not it is true) as a measure of how much you care about yourself.
Also, being in shape and having energy often leads you to doing the kinds of activities that get you out in the world and around men. WoW has it's place, but even an in-person D&D game would be around people.
I've lost track of where I was going with this. I guess I'll sum up with this: Don't let the world get you down. We all get through this sooner or later. Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
SO, it says you want to learn to play DnD. You should go out and learn. Go to your local game store and see if people play there. If you have a good game store, hanging out there would be a good use of time. Ours has some game going all the time. Lots of single males who would love to teach a new player.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
-_- Depressing I'm not into WoW but I do weight a bit extra.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I don't know about finding GOOD guys, but if you're into geeky things you shouldn't have a problem getting some attention from at least SOME equally geeky guys. Overweight is far less of an issue than just going out and talking to said guys - trust me, they want the attention just as much as you. And even if you don't talk to them, just going to hang out at comic or games store and someone should talk to you at some point.
Now, I admit that 220 lbs is getting into a range that is genuinely unhealthy. There'd still be potential for attraction there for me, but honestly, I think I'd need to see a really engaging personality shining through. Mouette didn't say exactly where she's at (which is fair enough), but if it's over the 200 mark I think it's worth trying to eat/exercise more purely for the health concerns. But if you're just a little on the chubby side I'm gonna care far more about how interesting you are than a few extra pounds.
"Shyness" isn't precisely an issue for me, because I'm usually outgoing enough for the both of us. Whenever I find myself standing or walking near someone for more then 10 seconds, I turn to them and say "Hey, are you in the mood to have a conversation with a random stranger?" If they say yes, I say "Great! What are your hopes, dreams and aspirations?" (This works about 1/4th of the time. I suspect the people it doesn't work with probably wouldn't be compatible with me anyway. I'm found I'm more attracted to girls who have a good answer to the question)
I must confess I have not ACTUALLY gotten a girlfriend this way yet (or, at all) but I've met a lot of interesting people. I also tend to this when I'm already out biking through parks and market squares, so I'm getting exercise, building confidence, getting better at holding up a conversation in general, and not spending money. All in all I'd call say it's a worthwhile strategy to try.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
My wife and my first girlfriend were both obese when we met. I am not obese (but since getting married I'm probably 10 or 15 lbs overweight now). I don't have a special attraction to heavy women, that's just the way it worked out.
I do like the softness.
I'd like my wife to lose weight for her health, and to open up more possibilities for outdoor recreation. (Long hikes aren't really an option right now.)
But I'm very attracted to her and was right at first, even though I think a healthier-looking body shape is more attractive overall.
SO don't feel like you can't get dates or have a relationship just because you're a bit bigger. You already know it'd be better in a number of ways to lose weight, but you don't *have* to be alone until you do, and size doesn't have to be the central fact of your existence.
P.S. How is it helpful to explain that you would never be with a heavy person?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
She asked a simple question.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:If they say yes, I say "Great! What are your hopes, dreams and aspirations?" (This works about 1/4th of the time. I suspect the people it doesn't work with probably wouldn't be compatible with me anyway. I'm found I'm more attracted to girls who have a good answer to the question)
People who can sum up their life's meaning in an answer?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
People who either A) have a sense of where they are going in life, or B) can make up an otherwise interesting answer on the spot.
Either case seems like a better measure of compatibility to me than whether you're a few pounds above the national average.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think that the opening is good, but asking someone to engage in conversation and then asking a question that puts the burden of the conversation entirely on them is asking a bit much. I suspect you would get a better than 25% success rate if you changed your follow up to something that didn't put them on the spot immediately. For me, even when I've had a answer, the question would seem awfully presumptuous from someone in the situation you've laid out.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
That's kind of what I was thinking -- what a presumptuous question. We've said less then a dozen words to one another and now you want me to sum up my essence in five sentences or less? No, thanks. As it happens, I've had people try to do that kind of thing to me before. From my perspective, the question itself made it abundantly clear that we were not suited for one another. Relationships are built over time on small moments of trust and revelation, not clever one-liners.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Fare enough. But as I said, this hasn't gotten me a girlfriend (although it led to some good friendships), so I'm not standing by it as a way to jumpstart a relationship, just as a way to meet people and have interesting conversations in general. The people who are obviously not impressed I say good day to and leave be.
I also DO try to use other openings when they present themselves, but that varies wildly on the situation. Generally, the "hopes, dreams aspirations" line is what I use when there's no obvious hook to start a conversation with, and so the options are either no conversation at all or a 75% chance of mild, short lived annoyance vs 25% chance of interesting conversation that could last anywhere from 10 minutes to 6 hours.
>>>From my perspective, the question itself made it abundantly clear that we were not suited for one another.
True. And I'd rather find that out sooner rather than later.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Raymond, you sound like you'd be a good salesman.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
.....thanks?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I'm not telling you to use the skill, I'm just saying that you probably have the skill.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
quote:Weight is about more than appearance, especially when you're dating. It is perceived (whether or not it is true) as a measure of how much you care about yourself.
This, I think, is the clincher. A healthy relationship should be between two people who have a relatively realistic view of their self-worth and so are not, to a huge extent, looking for a relationship as a constant means of external validation ('if I marry this type of person, then that must mean I am good enough'). That is not to say we don't all feel depressed or down on ourselves, or that we don't feel worthless at times. And friends (whether they are an SO or not) can play a huge role in helping us through this. But that should not be the bulk of the relationship, nor should that be the SO's primary role. And so, for me at least, I look for things that indicate a healthy self-respect and, to a certain extent, fearlessness to take on the world.
So in this context, then, not taking care of ones health and oneself (which, I think, is the core issue, since 'overweight', to an extent, is a very subjective thing), is an indicator of low-self esteem or passiveness that I personally don't find attractive. Even as I understand it, since I have to also be careful with food and am slightly overweight (which is why I exercise regularly).
Not to be overlooked, then, is what you do for yourself that shows you care about yourself and the way you view yourself and want others to view you. So clothes can play a role. I've known beautiful women who are a bit overweight. But they also carry themselves with confidence, dress to flatter themselves (as opposed to dressing like a skinny 18 yr old, which, Yikes!), and have amazing personalities. All of which made them very attractive to me. Of course, in general, I like realistic healthy looking women (though I am a guy, so, you know, the 'shallow' things appeal too...), so generally superskinny waifs are not my thing. And yet again, confidence, personality, etc, all can tip the scales to a direction I did not incline, as it has done in the past.
Anyway.
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
Speaking as a woman, I agree also with that statement ("Weight is more than appearance...").
It's funny, but both my fiancé and I at some point in time made it a point to lose weight long before we met, and for both of us it was about health. While that did help both of us to gain some confidence, it's not the sole source of it either. When he mentioned he'd lost weight in the past, that did, however, say to me that this guy cared enough to invest in his current and future health, which was and is attractive. What he's willing to do for himself is also what he's willing to do for those who care about him and who will get to enjoy his company longer (at least, potentially).
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)