With the start of the new school year, I keep running into parents whose children are five but who have decided not to send them to kindergarten this year. It seems to be the new vogue thing to do -- holding your kids back. And I'm not just talking about kids who barely made the cutoff and just aren't ready -- I mean any child with a birthday between March and August whose parents decided they wanted their kid to be older than everyone else. Many, if not most of these parents made the decision to hold their kids back before their children could walk or talk, some as soon as they knew they would deliver a baby in summer or late spring.
Before I became a parent I kind of thought the practice was silly and doing a bit of a disservice to the kids being held back since they would have to be in school longer. I personally hoped for a summer baby so they would start school as soon as possible (I missed wildly with my first, who is a November baby, and marginally with my second, who is a May baby).
At one point in my life I would have been hugely annoyed at having a child who just missed the cutoff and had to wait a whole year to go to school. Now, I think, I've accepted the idea that you have to put the cutoff somewhere. You don't want children of too wildly different ages and maturity levels in the same grade together.
But the problem is they're not enforcing this idea both ways. A child born on September 1st in my school district (and I think my state, for that matter), must wait until the year they turn 6 to go to school. A child born on August 31st may go to school the year they turn 5 OR else they can wait until the next year. Worse, we've got parents with children born as early as March and April who decide to wait until their children are fully 6 years old to go to school.
So now what we have is a situation in which any given grade may have children as far apart as a year and half in age -- not just a year. This is particularly unfair to summer babies who were already to be the youngest in the class.
And there is such a huge difference between 5 and 6. I mean, they've lived 20% longer.
Just the other day I talked to a mom whose child turned 4 in August who has pre-determined that he will not go to kindergarten next year. In this case, I'm familiar with the kid and I can't think of any reason he shouldn't go to school with his age group next year. She just wants him to have that extra edge -- be the biggest (for athletics) and the most mature (for academics). It came up the other day when I mentioned my son wouldn't go to kindergarten for another 2 years because his birthday is in November, and she said her son would be going the same year. And compared to my son, that's only a 3 month difference, no big deal. But my May daughter is going to be measured against children not just 9 months older than she is, but also against children who are 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 months older!
So that's my complaint. I cannot get it through to people why I dislike this practice -- they all think I should just be grateful that I had a boy in November (people are much more inclined to hold their boys back) and that it's ok for a girl to be born in May (although I've had people question me about holding her back -- almost certainly not and if I did, I wouldn't prejudge her at the age of 15 months!) I have probably failed to explain myself again today, but I wanted to get this off my chest. With the start of school I feel like I'm being immersed in it again.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It doesn't work. I wish I could remember where I read the article and the studies it cites, but basically, holding your kid back to give them an edge doesn't work. If there is any edge at all in the first couple of years, it dissapears by third grade.
If a kid is ready, waiting until a year after they are of age doesn't put them ahead a year. It just means they were bored and unchalleged for a year and now might be 19 or almost 20 before they graduate from high school. And it isn't like the kids themselves think they are super-sized 5 year olds - they know they are a year older. They aren't dumb. "Being held back" still holds the stigma that they can't keep up with kids their own age. Not a good message.
No long term advantage to them, and no long term disadvantage to your kids for being with them. Except, of course, your kids are less likely to get bored and they will graduate from high school while still teenagers.
So, I agree it's not fair, but I wouldn't worry a whole lot about it.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I was the second youngest student in my graduating class, with a birth-date of October 1st. My best friend was older than me, but in the grade below me.
I was pretty awkward socially in high school, and I wonder if another year of maturity would have done me some good.
I also played on the hockey team. I got some playing time as a junior and was pretty good as a senior. Another year and I believe I'd have excelled.
On the whole though, I'm not sure these things would have been worth graduating a year later. I was very happy to get out of high school when I did.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I read an article about this a year ago which actually said that the differences don't disappear entirely until grade 8, although I think they are largely gone much sooner than that (possibly by grade 3, but I can't remember). The article did spin this to sound like a negligible difference and in the grand scheme of things, I imagine they were right.
They further pointed out a number of problems with the decision to hold a child back -- the stigma of having been held back was way up there and I imagine that would be huge. I remember one parent telling me that her son, who started kindergarten at 6, was telling a bunch of people why he was held back a year and she was trying to correct his impression that he hadn't been good enough to start kindergarten.
But for the younger children in the class, the article did suggest there was a problem: that an increasing number of younger kids are being diagnosed with behavior and learning problems early in their academic careers because they are being compared to much older students.
Posted by Fractal Fraggle (Member # 9803) on :
Elementary school and high school are just the jump-off points for your life. I wouldn't want my kid to have to spend extra time there unnecessarily. Being better than the other kids at academics or sports might get you some scholarships for college but then you actually have to be better than the other kids at academics or sports, not just older than the other kids. Being bigger or older doesn't actually give you talent.
I'm with you, Christine. I always wondered why they don't enforce the cutoff in both directions. Our cutoff here is Sept. 1. And I can easily see a situation where a kid is born Sept. 2 but is ready for school (both mentally and socially) but can't go, no exceptions. Why should somebody whose kid is born in June get the option to keep him out? (Unless, of course, there is some documented disability where another year really would help)
Posted by Traceria (Member # 11820) on :
As a kid who started kindergarten at age 4, graduated at 17 and had to have their parents sign forms for college because she wasn't technically an adult... I don't know, I guess it bugs me that they started enforcing the cutoff (my birthday is in November, but they weren't strict about it in 1984, I guess) but yet allow people to manipulate the system like this. For a kid whose birthday is within days to a week of the cut off, if people agree the child is mature enough in more than one facet or just the opposite, be a little lenient by evaluating the kid (edit) by request, but to allow parents to hold back kids months and months out for no good reason is just...words fail me.
I say this as someone who was not only one of the youngest in her class each year but who ended up being in what were called GT (gifted and talented) level classes by the end of elementary school. What about those kids?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
We had to think about this ourselves. The cut-off here is the first week of December (4th maybe?), and Superstation's birthday is mid-November. If he were two weeks younger he couldn't have gone into kindergarten last year, but as it was we had to choose.
I saw kids in Mooselet's kindergarten class who weren't ready for kindergarten. I've seen them continue to struggle through first and second grade. I didn't want Superstation to have to go through that. And part of the difficulty choosing for us is that the decision had to be made in March whether or not we wanted to register him for pre-K. At that point there was no way he would have been ready for kindergarten, but who knows what six more months would do?
So we put him in pre-K. He excelled, and was definitely ready for kindergarten this year -- maybe too ready? He still has a lot of basic skills to refine -- fine motor control and not getting upset too easily. If we'd put him in kindergarten a year earlier, he might be a little better at those things now, but the trade-off wouldn't have been good for anyone -- including other kids in his class.
I recognize that there's a difference between what we decided and what you (Christine) are talking about. But for kids on the cusp, it's not always an easy decision.
Of course, I'm not too fond of the comparing my kid against other kids thing, either (though when they do well I'm less not-fond of it -- the curse of a proud parent). And my encouragement for them is not that they do best in their class, but that they do their best. I don't like that we're trained from infancy to value ourselves based on comparison with others, but I recognize it as a reality of adult life, and so my kids need to learn how to deal with it.
Dude, I honestly wonder sometimes if I don't have some form of adult-onset ADD, because I rarely remember by the end of a post what I intended to talk about when I started.
Posted by Fractal Fraggle (Member # 9803) on :
I'm not against the parents having a say in whether their kid is ready to go to school or not. I think it just bugs me that the cutoff date is only applied one way.
It might help with kids on the cusp if maybe there was a range of dates (Say August 1 - Oct. 31 or whatever) where the parents could choose one way or the other depending on their kid's particular situation. And if you want to hold back or push ahead beyond those dates you'd have to really fight it.
I have a summer baby who makes the cutoff so I don't really have to worry about it (although I think it's weird that he might be in class with a bunch of kids who are a year older than him or even more!).
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
My nephew (who will turn 5 at the end of October) just started kindergarten. I think it must be a private school or a co-op or something, because apparently there are only 7 kids in his class. I wonder how much of a difference that might have made in our decision.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
My brother and I were both summer babies and my parents to this day are glad that they held my brother back. He was the end of june and his maturity level was very low. I doubt based on his maturity any teachers realized he was a bit older. And even at graduation, he really was not ready to be an adult. Of course, the decision was based on his personality, not some attempt to get an advantage.
One thing that annoys me is the pressure on kids to perform. Parents seem to be trying to get an advantage, to have their kids reading at the youngest age, etc. I have trouble because there is a very competitive side to me. Keeping in mind that kids should have time to be kids and grow up can be hard. My preschool is more based on play time and social skills, while their is another one that is considered more academic. I spend a lot of time defending my choice to send her to the one I did. People assume I just couldn't get in the "good" school. It has a long waiting list.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Papa Moose -- that is the latest cut-off I have ever heard! I can see why you would struggle with a decision about whether or not to have a 4-year-old who won't turn 5 for months start kindergarten. The latest cut-off I ever heard was the first week of October.
I'm curious what criteria educators use to establish these cut-offs. August 31st seems like a natural one to me -- essentially the kids need to be 5 by the day they start classes. (Although actually classes start a week or two before the end of August so there may be a couple still 4...but the start day varies from year to year and it's probably best to keep the cut-off date firm.)
But actually, if the cut-off here were the first week in December and my son beat it by about 2 weeks, I would send him to kindergarten next year at the age of 4. And he's currently on an IEP in pre-school for speech delays. I just know that in a few years it will all even out and it will be best for him to be with his closest age-mates. And he really surprised me when he started pre-school last year, two days after his 3rd birthday. I think that cinched it for me. It was my worries and fears that he wasn't ready to get on a bus and go to school. He did great!
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I will admit that I have not even the slightest idea why this matters. Probably half of my friends in high school were held back a year, and neither they nor the rest of us cared.
Our public school system also sorted kids by calendar year, not by academic year: January to January was one grade.
Posted by malanthrop (Member # 11992) on :
There are two things to consider mental and physical development. My birthday is late July and as such, I graduated at 17. Academically and socially I did fine but as an athlete my senior year I realized I was competing against kids as old as 19. Two years of physical development into adulthood is a significant advantage.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
The cutoff here is the end of February. My own kids were born in September and October so it wasn't an issue for us. I have two nieces born in February and one of them started Kindergarten at 4 and she was totally ready for it and has done very well. The parents of the other niece decided not to put her in Kindergarten this year and I'm not sure why exactly but she's close enough to the cutoff that I totally respect her parents decision. They know her better than I do and I know it has nothing to do with getting an edge on her classmates. I've actually never heard of people doing that before.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My brother and I were both summer babies. I don't think my mom could have held me back if she had wanted to. She said I pestered her on a daily basis when I was four about signing me up for school, and she was thrilled when I finally got to go as it finally shut me up.
My brother on the other hand was held back in kindergarten because he didn't play well with others. I was 17 when I graduated, and he was 19 when he graduated. He was really good in all the sports he played, but I'm not sure how much his age was a factor. He wasn't any bigger than the other guys. Academically it wasn't an advantage. He's smart but extremely lazy, and did the bare minimum to graduate (a trend he has continued in college, despite my protests and offers of studying help).
Comparing the two of us is hard. We're like night and day when it comes to a great deal of things, and I don't think it had that much to do with when we entered school, but it really skews any sort of comparison.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
We held our kid back a year. He was old enough by three weeks to attend when 5, but we didn't think he was ready. He had been going to preschool and had a lot of trouble participating and following instructions. He had known his ABCs and numbers for a long time already...it was all about his behavior. So we worked with him for a year and this year it's going great, as far as I can tell. He loves it and he brings home evidence of his participation every day. (I guess I'll know for sure when we meet with the teacher, or start getting notes sent home.)
I was torn about the decision. We eventually decided whatever stigma came with being the oldest kid in the class would probably be less bad that struggling and becoming convinced that he belonged in that niche.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
(Just found out my nephew is indeed doing private kindergarten this year, and will be going into public kindergarten next year, so it seems like a more advanced preschool.)
I think if Superstation had already been in preschool for a year we might have put him in kindergarten, but going from full-time at-home to full-day kinder seemed like a huge jump. When Mooselet went to kindergarten it was only half-day.
I haven't yet been concerned about the academic readiness of the kids. It was the social and emotional readiness that was a bigger deal, and Mooselet (at 5-1/4) was ready, where Superstation (at 4-3/4) was not. In our opinion, of course. And while Superstation probably could have caught up in time, we had always been looking at it from the "pushing him ahead" standpoint rather than the "holding him back" standpoint. If it becomes clear that he's ready, they can always have him skip a year. I think that's a better choice/rechoice than going the earlier year and having him repeat a grade (no, I'm not saying one would happen -- just saying the side toward which we'd tend to err).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
We didn't hold back my youngest (end of September birthday; Dec. 1 cut-off), and later regretted it. She eventually ended up repeating the year, and still has issues with her reading, which I think are largely because she was not ready for it when it was pushed on her.
No, I'm not bitter. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I started kindergarten when I was 5 but just about a month into 2nd grade my parents didn't feel I was ready for it so they put me back in 1st grade. It seemed to work well for me, I was alot more confident in 2nd grade the second time around and I meet some fantastic people in my grade throughout the years that I would have missed had I been a year ahead. But then again, who know who I failed to meet?
I think it was the right decision for me, but kids are vary greatly.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I have a daughter whose birthday is early August. This meant she was just 4 when she started Pre-K. Her teachers said all year long that she was keeping up with the work but lacked in her maturity. At the end of the year, the sent her on because she mastered all the Pre-K skills. They said she may have a problem in K.
Well, she did. Again, she was doing the work, but not at the right maturity level. We held her back this year and she is repeating K. At first she was bothered by it, but her best friend stayed behind too (same situation).
I had a bigger problem with it than she did.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
This if a very current topic for me and my wife. We have a 5 year old whose birthday is in July, the cut off date is September first. We are so glad he was born before September because he would be so bored now. He is ready for Kindergarten.
We have a daughter who turns two this month (September). She missed the cut off and will have to wait until she is 6! I can't imagine the horror for her. She will be so bored that last year.
We wanted our kids to start at 5 as we think they are more then enough ready. Our third child was due August 31st. It is the 3rd and she still isn't born--be expecting a Hatrack announcement soon tho!
Because my wife was 7 days and 4 days late with our two other children, we scheduled our third to be induced August 28 to make sure our baby could start at age 5. I can't imagine intentionally waiting a year. Different strokes I guess.
We don't have a baby yet because after some thought and internet study we decided that the risks of inducement far outweighed the benefit of our daughter starting school at 5 instead of 6. Here we have a post about parents intentionally holding kids back. Strange.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
lem: I would be tempted to induce too rather than have a baby miss the cut-off by a week or two. It's really unfair that they enforce the cut-off one way and not the other....on day late and your choices disappear.
That said, and I don't know what the rules are in your state, but I found a loophole in my state. (Kansas) I don't plan to use it because I'm ok with my son going to kindergarten at 5, 6 the following November, but here's what I could do if I wanted: If a child transfers in from another school, they take that child in their current grade, regardless of birth date. So if you enrolled your child in an out-of-state home school curriculum for kindergarten at the age of 5, you could then transfer them into a first grade near you at the age of (nearly) 6.
Also, there are often private schools that will work with you.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I have a mid October birthday and I think my mother could've chosen to hold me back if she wanted, but it was a small private school, and I was already in their nursery program and I don't think she ever seriously considered the option. Especially because I had already been in "class" with the same group of people for 2 years coming into kindergarten.
So like others, I graduated high school at 17(and entered college at 17) and was almost always the youngest student in my class. I never felt like I struggled with class work or had any adverse affects from being younger than everyone though.
Looking back now the only thing I can say is that it probably would've been nice to have an extra year of physical development for sports competition. I was one of the top runners in my state senior year and it would've felt great to have my 18 year old self still able to compete at the same level.
Still, I wouldn't trade it. Holding a kid back solely for a hypothetical advantage 10 years later in sports competition seems unnecessary.
edit - an interesting related story is that in 3rd grade I lost the ability to get to my school and had to transfer to a public school in the area. They wanted to move me up a grade and my mom pulled me out and worked out a way to get me to my other school because she didn't want me THAT much younger than everyone else. Thanks Mom!
Posted by Vincent1 (Member # 11729) on :
This reminds me of the new teach you baby to read videos. I know parents want to give their children every advantage possible, but at some point are your really doing what is best for your child or what you want to brag about. I'm guessing you could give your baby an advantage by having them memorize words off a video, but I've heard they forget it if you don't keep doing it. Is a child who is not ready to be potty trained ready to really ready to start learning abstract concepts? Who does this benefit? I would say the parents who get to go around bragging about how smart their baby is.
It's the same thing with holding kids back. If the child is not ready then hold your child back, but if you are holding them back so your kid can be the biggest or smartest kid in their class so you can brag about it shame on you. Everyone has different talents and abilities. One more year is not going to make them smarter or more athletic. If they are going to be a genius they will be, if they are the next Jordan or Woods they will be regardless which class they are in.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I wasn't actually held back, my mom just taught me at home until I was old enough to go straight to grade 1. I guess that's not such a big deal though. In any case, I don't understand why anyone would want their kind to start, and therefore finish school a year late. Don't you want them to be with kids their own age?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I started my son at six and elected to have him repeat grade K a second time. Socially and emotionally he was not ready for the next step. Health issues and multiple hospitalizations played some role in my decision, but I would have been inclined to a slower pace anyhow.
We push kids too hard too early on -- parents are on the money to give it a bit more time, I think. And it's different for diffeent kids, of course. some are super ready for that wee bit more challenge -- let's definitely give it to them!
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I wish I had considered holding my older daughter back or having her repeat kindergarten. She has struggled with school all along.
She's 16 and has a July birthday, so if she had been held back she would be 18 when she graduated. As it is, she refused to attend school this year and said her dad (who didn't gratuate from high school) would homeschool her. Of course, I can't allow that so I'm adding homeschooling an unmotivated teen to my full-time job and 12 hours of college classes. (One of my classes is flexnet, so I have to motivate myself as well.)
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: We push kids too hard too early on -- parents are on the money to give it a bit more time, I think. And it's different for diffeent kids, of course. some are super ready for that wee bit more challenge -- let's definitely give it to them!
I have to disagree with this. I think what is happening is that parents are projecting their own desires, beliefs, and prejudices on their kids instead of letting their children take the lead and show them what they need. For example, a friend of mine held her son back because her husband wished he had been held back, not because the little boy in question needed to be held back. As if that could make up for a wrong choice made a generation ago.
On the flipside, there are parents desperate to get their babies to say the alphabet on their first birthday with programs like, "Your Baby Can Read!" What nonsense. Pushing kids like that may get you some early bragging rights but long run it is likely to backfire because your children are following your agenda rather than you following theirs. When children are ready to learn the alphabet, they'll let you know, and in the long run it doesn't mean a thing if they could say it at 18 months or 5 years. IMO, it's far more important that they enjoy reading than that they learn to do it young.
But when it comes to starting children in kindergarten at the age of 5 with their peer group, I still think that most of the time the right choice is to go for it. Worst case, you hold them back and have them repeat kindergarten. But if you hold them back and that turns out to have been a mistake there is almost no way to undo it.
Posted by DSH (Member # 741) on :
Homeschoolers never have these "start 'em now or hold 'em back" conversations. Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by DSH: Homeschoolers never have these "start 'em now or hold 'em back" conversations.
Well from the studies I have seen, I think it is clear homeschooled kids do not pay any attention to grade level. (To clarify, the studies showed that the homeschool kids were scoring 2 grade levels above their age).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Worst case, you hold them back and have them repeat kindergarten. But if you hold them back and that turns out to have been a mistake there is almost no way to undo it.
I was with you until this.
First of all, holding back a kid and having them repeat kindergarten IS A BIG DEAL. Not as big a deal as repeating 1st or second, but nonetheless.
And if a kid is too advanced for their grade, skipping is often an option. While it has some drawbacks too (I missed several things, although that was partly because I switched schools at the same time), it is not as detrimental to a kid's self-esteem or social position as being held back.
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
I've read this thread with great interest as this is a decision I'll be facing soon.
My little boy turned 4 in late July, so technically he should be starting K next year.
He's in a twice a week preschool right now and academically he is doing great. He's great at memorization and grasps concepts quickly.
However, he is tiny, 10% for weight for his age. He potty-trained pretty late, and sometimes rejects social interaction. And while his vocabulary and grammar are awesome, he still has trouble saying his r's, which I think sometimes makes others perceive him as younger than he is.
I'm torn because I think if I wait he'll be academically bored, but if I send him he might struggle socially/physically.
At this point we are using how he does in preschool as a guage, but I think if I had to make the decision right now I'd wait a year.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by DaisyMae: However, he is tiny, 10% for weight for his age. He potty-trained pretty late, and sometimes rejects social interaction. And while his vocabulary and grammar are awesome, he still has trouble saying his r's, which I think sometimes makes others perceive him as younger than he is.
A great many pre-school aged kids are still not pronouncing words perfectly. There is a noticed improvement once they start school. As one speech and language person told me (my son is getting speech services), once they start school a lot of kids go from talking so only mom and dad can understand to talking so everyone can. So I personally wouldn't worry about r's. Although if you are worried, you can always get a speech therapist to work with him on his r's.
My son is also skinny (below 10th percentile) and it seems like a pretty cruel reason to hold him back, to be honest. Maybe I'm just getting a bit defensive about my skinny boy! (Mommy thing.) I have to think, though, that if he's academically ready that it would hurt a child to be told they aren't physically big enough to go to school.
If he's potty trained now, he didn't potty train that late. A lot of boys don't potty train until 3-4. In fact, 3 is *average* for a boy. (2.5 is average for a girl.)
As far as socialization goes...I don't know. I had socialization problems in school but it never once even remotely occurred to me as a tiny possibility that holding me back a year would have helped. (I have a June b-day.) I can think of a few things that would have helped, but waiting a year to go to school would probably have made things worse...I had self-esteem issues as it was. The painful shyness didn't help matters, either, and that didn't go away the next year, or the year after that, or the year after that...
Anyway, I have no idea if any of that is relevant in your case but that's my experience.
[ September 04, 2009, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Worst case, you hold them back and have them repeat kindergarten. But if you hold them back and that turns out to have been a mistake there is almost no way to undo it.
I was with you until this.
First of all, holding back a kid and having them repeat kindergarten IS A BIG DEAL. Not as big a deal as repeating 1st or second, but nonetheless.
And if a kid is too advanced for their grade, skipping is often an option. While it has some drawbacks too (I missed several things, although that was partly because I switched schools at the same time), it is not as detrimental to a kid's self-esteem or social position as being held back.
I've never known a single child who was given the option to skip a grade. I've known plenty who could have benefited from it, but as far as I can tell, schools do not accept this as a real possibility. It sounds like you were given the option, which is rare...but I just haven't had or seen this experience.
It would be an easier decision to make if I thought skipping ahead were an option. Then erring on the side of holding them back makes sense, because if they needed to be held back then you've slightly shielded their self-esteem and if they end up needing to go forward, that may even be a self-esteem boost.
I don't know...sometimes I think warning signs look bigger in hindsight. All we can do is make the best decisions we can at the time.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I've never known a single child who was given the option to skip a grade.
I skipped several.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Whether skipping is an option is definitely school- and/or district-dependent. Anecdotally, it is also more common in private schools. I attended private schools, as did my siblings, two of whom also skipped grades. (At a different school than I did.)
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
One of my friends has decided to home school recently. Her son was extremely bored and this was beginning to cause problems (nothing serious, but enough that she figured the situation could not continue). Her first choice was to skip a grade, however the school was not happy about that and made everything very difficult- for example, they required tests, but they would tell her nothing about the tests- like general subject matter. Her plan is to homeschool for a year (during which time they are planning to move) and then enroll in a new school district listing his grade as one higher. For home schooling, she is teaching the higher grade level, so this makes a lot of sense. But, yeah, a lot of kids are not given the option of skipping ahead and the schools seem to dislike the idea. My parents would never skip me ahead because they didn't want my brother and I to be in the same class- they thought having his little sister (by 2 years) in the same grade would hurt his self esteem.
Posted by Fractal Fraggle (Member # 9803) on :
Are schools getting back to letting kids skip grades? I know when I went through, my school district absolutely forbade kids from skipping grades because it was felt that it would ruin their socialization. Smart kids could go in to the GATE program but they had to stay with their age-mates. But that was a long time ago. I have no idea whether skipping ahead is still forbidden in that district.
I would have a very hard time holding my kid back for social reasons unless I had the option to later bring him back to his age-mates, (if/when he surmounted his social issues and was ahead academically). I'm not saying I wouldn't do it or that other people shouldn't, but just that I would have to be convinced that whatever socialization issue he was having would be cured by waiting another year, and that he wouldn't end up bored out of his mind academically.
edit: It took me so long to finish this post that it looks like my initial question was answered.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
Posted by Fractal Fraggle (Member # 9803) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
I can't tell if this is a general "you" to the forum that just happens to follow my post or if it was aimed at my post in particular. It's hard to tell when you can't rely on the tone or body language.
For myself: It's really none of my business how other people raise their kids. And while (in real life) I don't butt in unless there's a danger to the kid, I do have opinions on all sorts of topics. In my post I was trying to make sure that I was only stating my opinion and not what other people should have to do, sorry if it came off otherwise.
The only real problem I have with this topic is that the cutoff date isn't allowed to slide both ways. It doesn't seem fair. As others have pointed out (and which had never occurred to me), there are loopholes such as enrolling your kid in private school or homeschooling.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
I can understand it in that, as mentioned in the first post, ". . . my May daughter is going to be measured against children . . . who are 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 months older!" It's the comparative aspect that can be "unfair," and a concern. However, in my experience thus far, there doesn't seem to be all that much comparative nature (gradewise) with other students, but in comparison to past performance and predetermined grade-level standards. Methinks that will change in later years, but at this point it doesn't affect academic standing. Quite possible that it makes a difference depending on the teacher, principal, district, state, etc. And it's very possible that it affects things subconsciously -- that's a possibility in nearly everything.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
See, that's always been my experience with schools-- they compare each student to their own work/performance, not to other students. It's part and parcel of being in a public school to have students of varying abilities in a class. Every study I've read about says that benefits and detriments to kids going to school early or late compared to their peers disappears by 8th grade or so, and it's not until high school that kids really start to compete against each other, grade-wise, if my experience is anything to go by.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I guess I first became concerned when I read an article that suggested to me that younger students are increasingly being diagnosed with learning and behavior disorders because they are being compared with children so much older. In an ideal world of course teachers would compare each student only to his/her past work, but I'm not sure that's what happens in real life.
The thread has since wandered quite a bit, but that was my initial concern.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
quote: So now what we have is a situation in which any given grade may have children as far apart as a year and half in age -- not just a year.
With different states having different cut-off dates for starting school, and with the retention of students who don't pass the state test in third grade (in Georgia "mandatory" retention for those who don't pass reading in 3rd grade, reading and math in 5th and 8th . . . mandatory in quotes because if the school teacher/parent/admin team decides it's in the best interest of the student to not retain, then it isn't done) then you can end up, as I did last year with my fourth grade class, with kids ranging in age from 8 to 11 at the start of the year, and 9 to 12 at the end of the year. It isn't comparison of child to child, but rather, as Papa Moose said, "comparison to past performance and predetermined grade-level standards." Some of my oldest kids were just as immature as some of my youngest, and some of my younger ones were more mature than the rest of the class. Every child is so individualistic, it's difficult to compare with others as to whether to hold them back or not. Some of the littlest ones in my class have done very well, while others might have benefited from an extra year of growth.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine:
I've never known a single child who was given the option to skip a grade.
I don't know if they do it anymore but I did, back in the dark ages. The school wanted to skip my sister too, but my mother wouldn't let them cuz she had an Oct birthday and would have graduated at 16 if she'd skipped.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I guess I first became concerned when I read an article that suggested to me that younger students are increasingly being diagnosed with learning and behavior disorders because they are being compared with children so much older. In an ideal world of course teachers would compare each student only to his/her past work, but I'm not sure that's what happens in real life.
The thread has since wandered quite a bit, but that was my initial concern.
Well, I work in the early learning field, and from what I can tell, the learning and behavior disorders have more to do with what we are requiring at these young ages, than the age at which a child "enters" formal schooling.
For example -- you can pull out my grade K report card from 1973. The focus was on socialization (taking turns, sharing, cleaning up after oneself); developing good work habits (following directions, completing assigned tasks, turning them in, etc) and a smidgeon of "cognitive" -- i.e., writing one's full name using block printing, reciting and writing the alphabet, counting sequentially, learning to handle the tools of learning (pencils, crayons, scissors, folding, drawing, etc).
Nowadays, in grade K we are forcing the issue of reading, writing in pre-cursive, adding and subtracting -- stuff that frankly was 1st grade curriculum.
I hear over and over from preschool and grade K teachers that the trickle-down of upper level testing has intensely and in many ways negatively impacted our early learners.
It's an interesting conundrum -- and no one answer or approach works for all families or children, by any means.
Anyway -- I don't think it's the "comparison" -- it's being submerged in skill development and learning that really is not age or developmentally appropriate.
IMHO.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Shan: You may have a point. I recently took a look, out of curiosity (since my son starts in 2 years and I want to know what he needs in prep), at my school district's curriculum goals for kindergarteners. I was pretty surprised that by the end of the year, they will apparently be writing stories and journal entries. I pretty much remember learning the alphabet in kindergarten, how to write my name, and a few simple sight words. We didn't really start learning to read and write until first grade.
I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not. I imagine that for some kids it is, and for others it's a disaster. It certainly makes pre-school more important, though, because that's where you need to get intro to socialization and following directions.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
And that really gets my goat, personally. I don't think it's good for kids, frankly.
Hence our decision to homeschool. Posted by Zamphyr (Member # 6213) on :
This is an interesting article, though I don't see how it really helps anything. It suggests that the youngest kids in the class are at a disadvantage but someone has to be the youngest. If you back up the kindergarten cut-off to needing to be 5 by May 31st, then suddenly March-May babies are the youngest and at a disadvantage.
It does heavily suggest that there is quite a bit of comparison that goes on between kids, which I really couldn't see any way around. It's human nature to make comparisons.
What I find interesting is that I would guess the differences really fade away to nothing by the end of elementary school -- but early encouragement/discouragement still weighs heavily on a child's self-concept.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: And that really gets my goat, personally. I don't think it's good for kids, frankly.
Hence our decision to homeschool.
Are you homeschooling now? (I wasn't sure if any of your kids were old enough yet.)
I played with this idea because of a few problems I had with schools, although going too fast was not on the list. I was always bored in school, so I tend to think from that perspective, but either way I guess it's two sides of the same coin: the schools can't individualize education as well as a parent could at home.
I also hate teaching to the tests, the sheer number of hours spent in the classroom instead of out playing (especially for elementary school), and the availability of junk food, just to name a few.
But I'm a lousy teacher. I spend months trying to teach my son his colors. He went to pre-school for a couple of weeks and just knew them all. When I visited his classroom and saw how capable they were, it really cinched my decision that he needed to be at school and I needed to take a backseat roll in his education -- as a supporter and in the future, I hope an enricher.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
I don't know what Christine's answer to this question would be, but I know mine. We've been over this before so I'm not sure why I bother. Your children's education affects the entire community, not just you and them. As a member of the community, I have a moral obligation toward education of all the children in the community. I know you don't believe that but you are dead wrong. Children aren't the property of their parents and parents don't have the right to do what ever they choose with their children. Children have rights and it is the moral obligation of a community to protect the rights of the child as well as the rights of parents.
If children enter school late, it has an impact on other children and teachers in the classroom. If they are a year older when they graduate from High School, it has an impact on colleges and universities and ultimately on the work force, productivity, tax revenues and so forth.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by DaisyMae: I've read this thread with great interest as this is a decision I'll be facing soon.
My little boy turned 4 in late July, so technically he should be starting K next year.
He's in a twice a week preschool right now and academically he is doing great. He's great at memorization and grasps concepts quickly.
However, he is tiny, 10% for weight for his age. He potty-trained pretty late, and sometimes rejects social interaction. And while his vocabulary and grammar are awesome, he still has trouble saying his r's, which I think sometimes makes others perceive him as younger than he is.
I'm torn because I think if I wait he'll be academically bored, but if I send him he might struggle socially/physically.
At this point we are using how he does in preschool as a guage, but I think if I had to make the decision right now I'd wait a year.
In many respects, you could be describing my younger brother. Except that his birthday was in October not July so he didn't have the option of starting school when he was four even though he was reading at age four. Although he was one of the oldest in his class, he was still among the smallest and still had to have speech therapy to learn to says his r's properly so don't assume that holding him back will solve those problems. My brother has always wished he could have started school a year earlier. Even now that he has successful completed a graduate degree at a top school and has a great career, he still thinks he wishes he could have started kindergarten a year earlier.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: But I'm a lousy teacher. I spend months trying to teach my son his colors. He went to pre-school for a couple of weeks and just knew them all.
I don't know if that's your only example to back up your claim that you're a lousy teacher, but let me say that kids frequently learn in the way you described. They plateau. You spend months trying to teach them something, and then all of the sudden something clicks and they get it. It's very possible that your son just reached that plateau in preschool, or having what you'd taught him reinforced by another adult and peer pressure really brought the knowledge home.
I'm just saying, don't take it personally. I did the same thing with my son. I home school him, and we spent his entire first grade year drilling basic addition facts that he couldn't remember for the life of him, giving me the impression that I sucked at teaching. But during the first week of his second grade year, he suddenly knew every single fact, and, not only that, he learned how to add with carrying to the hundred-thousandth place all in one afternoon. It's just what kids do. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
quote: But I'm a lousy teacher. I spend months trying to teach my son his colors. He went to pre-school for a couple of weeks and just knew them all.
I don't know if that's your only example to back up your claim that you're a lousy teacher, but let me say that kids frequently learn in the way you described. They plateau. You spend months trying to teach them something, and then all of the sudden something clicks and they get it. It's very possible that your son just reached that plateau in preschool, or having what you'd taught him reinforced by another adult and peer pressure really brought the knowledge home.
I'm just saying, don't take it personally. I did the same thing with my son. I home school him, and we spent his entire first grade year drilling basic addition facts that he couldn't remember for the life of him, giving me the impression that I sucked at teaching. But during the first week of his second grade year, he suddenly knew every single fact, and, not only that, he learned how to add with carrying to the hundred-thousandth place all in one afternoon. It's just what kids do.
I have noticed my son doing this -- the plateau. This is largely how his speech development worked (he's still receiving special services but it's much better). I remember reading books that suggested what skills to work with at different ages and I'd work and work with him to no avail. Then I'd give up and a month or two later notice that he was doing it with no effort -- stacking blocks, putting together basic puzzles, drinking out of a cup...just a few that I can think of off the top of my head. Recently, it's the alphabet. I tried to work with him on this a year ago (he was showing interest...I wasn't being pushy) but nothing. Now, all of a sudden, he knows all his lower and upper case letters by sight, the sounds they make (well, he's confused about the letters that make more than one sound), and is starting to be able to write them. (Oddly enough, though, he can't sing the alphabet song.)
So you may have a point, but I also think school has been good for him and I know I'm pretty impatient. It's easier for me to be his champion for a few hours a day than it would be for me to encourage him all day, every day, through negligible progress when all I'd want to say is, "Come on, already!" Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I wasn't homeschooled, but most of what I learned in elementary school was seeded at home. My mother basically taught me to read and write, even though I was also taught it at school. Trips to museums were never just running about distractions, but informal stop-and-look history or science lessons.
I say this because I think that you don't have to Homeschool your child to homeschool them. You can be a "small h" homeschooler and do reading and writing and colours and math etc. with them.
I'm not a Homeschool fan. I would not have wanted to spend all time at home with the same person and miss out on my time at school for the world. However, my education-at-home has been vital in helping me be as capable as I am.
So keep teaching your kid at home. Although-- I know, I know, I'm no expert at all-- but I was never quizzed. You mention your kid doesn't know all the sounds of all the letters, Christine... maybe it's time for simple words to get some of those different sounds in context?
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
I don't know what Christine's answer to this question would be, but I know mine. We've been over this before so I'm not sure why I bother. Your children's education affects the entire community, not just you and them. As a member of the community, I have a moral obligation toward education of all the children in the community. I know you don't believe that but you are dead wrong. Children aren't the property of their parents and parents don't have the right to do what ever they choose with their children. Children have rights and it is the moral obligation of a community to protect the rights of the child as well as the rights of parents.
If children enter school late, it has an impact on other children and teachers in the classroom. If they are a year older when they graduate from High School, it has an impact on colleges and universities and ultimately on the work force, productivity, tax revenues and so forth.
Exaggerate much?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: I have a mid October birthday and I think my mother could've chosen to hold me back if she wanted, but it was a small private school, and I was already in their nursery program and I don't think she ever seriously considered the option. Especially because I had already been in "class" with the same group of people for 2 years coming into kindergarten.
So like others, I graduated high school at 17(and entered college at 17) and was almost always the youngest student in my class. I never felt like I struggled with class work or had any adverse affects from being younger than everyone though.
Looking back now the only thing I can say is that it probably would've been nice to have an extra year of physical development for sports competition. I was one of the top runners in my state senior year and it would've felt great to have my 18 year old self still able to compete at the same level.
Still, I wouldn't trade it. Holding a kid back solely for a hypothetical advantage 10 years later in sports competition seems unnecessary.
edit - an interesting related story is that in 3rd grade I lost the ability to get to my school and had to transfer to a public school in the area. They wanted to move me up a grade and my mom pulled me out and worked out a way to get me to my other school because she didn't want me THAT much younger than everyone else. Thanks Mom!
I have a friend who is a PhD student starting his fourth year. He turned 18 this summer. People say that cases like his never work, but knowing him, this actually does.
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
Christine and Rabbit - Your arguments are both clearly in favor of not waiting another year, which complicates my feelings on the subject. My husband who has an August birthday and was held back lauds the decision made my his parents and likes the idea of having our son wait as well.
But you make some good points...
This will definitely garner a lot of discussion in our household.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
I have an August birthday, and I was held back from kindergarten.
This was actually because we knew we would be moving out of the state the very next summer, and I might as well get introduced to all my classmates the same time as everyone else, without having the burden of adjusting to a new school that every other student is already familiar with.
The decision was a good one. My kindergarten teacher was the greatest in the land.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by HollowEarth:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Honestly I don't understand why exactly other parents doing this bothers you.
I don't know what Christine's answer to this question would be, but I know mine. We've been over this before so I'm not sure why I bother. Your children's education affects the entire community, not just you and them. As a member of the community, I have a moral obligation toward education of all the children in the community. I know you don't believe that but you are dead wrong. Children aren't the property of their parents and parents don't have the right to do what ever they choose with their children. Children have rights and it is the moral obligation of a community to protect the rights of the child as well as the rights of parents.
If children enter school late, it has an impact on other children and teachers in the classroom. If they are a year older when they graduate from High School, it has an impact on colleges and universities and ultimately on the work force, productivity, tax revenues and so forth.
Exaggerate much?
Not from my perspective. What do you think is an exaggeration?
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
Specifically this part of your reply:
quote:If they are a year older when they graduate from High School, it has an impact on colleges and universities and ultimately on the work force, productivity, tax revenues and so forth.
You really think that this effect is big enough, averaged over the US workforce to be meaningful and this isn't just wild extrapolation? We're not talking about shuttering education for a period of years here. Even if there was some real impact, the idea that this shouldn't be allowed due to the possible loss of future tax revenues is laughable.
I also think that while you have a point, you come across a little overly strong with the rest of it. The borders of the communities interests are a somewhat ill defined in practice. Even if we probably could find some agreed upon subset (ie, the 3 R's).
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
My thoughts are this - the reason alot of kids are not getting held back that weren't in the past is because Kindergarten is now 1st grade. See, the government thought it would be all smart by mandating K for everyone and forcing advance concepts down, but it ended up making it so that Kindergarten was extremely difficult for alot of children. In fact, if you look at psychological/developmental texts, many of the skills now considered to be K are not expected to be truly "developed" in the brain until age 6 or 7. Therefor, it's not surprising that parents are saying "my kid isn't ready!".
My perspective is this. I have an August 19 birthday (cutoff here is Aug 31st). I would have KILLED my parents had they held me back because I was chomping at the bit to go, and would love to have even been skipped. That wasn't an option for me, mainly because I was the youngest in my grade, tiny for my age, and while I excelled academically I was developmentally delayed physically. In the end though, I ended up skipping grade 10 of high school, and graduating college at 19.
On the other hand, there was 1 boy in our grade (July birthday) who started K with us because his mother voluntarily held him back. We had a variety of others "fail in" later on. I never had a problem being more than a year behind my classmates. It didn't bug me. What DID bug me was ALWAYS turning the 'new age' last - but that was my own darn birthday's fault, not anyone else's.
That being said, I was a far different child than others. The boy in our class who entered K @ 6 with us probably really wasn't ready the year before. He still had alot of separation anxiety that year, and the year before I remember his mother trying to peel him off of her at bible school and it truly not working. He just wasn't ready, and that's the truth.
My son has a December birthday, so I never thought about holding him back for K. When it came right down to it though, I almost did. My son, though academically fine (even ahead of the other kids) is showing ALOT of the signs of not being developmentally ready for school. His teacher even asked me if she'd read his birthday right, because his behavior is so much more indicative of a child several months younger than himself. If he hadn't been a December birthday, but was perhaps a May birthday, there is NO WAY he would be anywhere near ready. As many times as he has to be "redirected" these days, if he'd entered K 6 months ago, it would have been an utter disaster!
Now, my son did have alot of issues as an infant that affected his development. He spend several days with up and down oxygen numbers when he was only a few weeks old, and was on and off a bunch of steroids and other medication for his entire first year of life. Yet, who is to say that this didn't happen to some of the other kids who are 6-year-old K's? I know for a fact that one of the girls in his class who started at 6 (Early summer b-day) was a preemie and has a blood disorder that has required hospitalization multiple times. Who would I be to judge and say she should have started a year ago.
Now, there is a child in Azriel's Kindergarten who is just barely 5. His birthday is August 18 and his parents agonized over whether to send him. Then ended up deciding to let him go. He's doing great! He isn't as academically advanced as my son, but his behavior is more developmentally appropriate. In their case, it seems they made the right call.
I do agree with you, however, that it is unfair that the cut offs only work one way. I think it would be great if a parent could have their child evaluated for early K entry. I think the issue with this is a matter of funding, however, not school system stubbornness. After all, private schools have been allowing advanced 4-year-olds into Kindergarten for YEARS. State's, on the other hand, don't seem to want to fork out money for a child any earlier than they have to, even if it means having to continue to fork out money for a longer time. It stinks, but it's going to be a really hard battle to win. Until then, there are work arounds for parents who think their child is ready for K. Most of them involve doing the first year or two in a private school (or in a state with a later cut off). They have to jump through many more hoops than parents who hold their kids back, but at least they do have the option.
What would be interesting to see is the ACLU take the case of parents suiting the state for reimbursement of this K cost on the basis that the cut offs are, after all, flexible in the backwards direction. That's the only thing I can see that will have any chance in changing the legislation.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: It's easier for me to be his champion for a few hours a day than it would be for me to encourage him all day, every day, through negligible progress when all I'd want to say is, "Come on, already!"
See, and I agree with this. Even though I strongly support homeschooling for any parent that's interested, I think what really matters, in the end, is being an interested, supportive parent. I mean, if you're involved in how he's doing at school and you can tell he progressing well, and staying mentally healthy, then you're making the right choice.
quote: I say this because I think that you don't have to Homeschool your child to homeschool them. You can be a "small h" homeschooler and do reading and writing and colours and math etc. with them.
Exactly. Every parent is a teacher, whether or not they try. You can teach disinterest and selfishness by actively teaching nothing. But most parents teach their kids instinctively, and those who take an active role in their children's education in the younger years are certainly giving their kids an advantage.
That said:
quote: I'm not a Homeschool fan. I would not have wanted to spend all time at home with the same person and miss out on my time at school for the world.
This is probably the least understood facet of homeschooling. Home schooled kids are not forced to stay home all day with one person, nor is it even necessarily encouraged. My kids take Japanese, play basketball, and attend Sunday school, all outside of the home and all with no interference from me. They have plenty of classroom experiences and have made many friends/acquaintances, even though they don't spend an entire day with those acquaintances.
Just an example.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
My daughter is starting Kindergarten tomorrow. We decided to start her early. Heb birthday is in October so she missed the cut off here by 23 days. She is ready. Her preschool teachers and I both see that she is ready. She'd be bored in another year of preschool. We're putting her in a private Kindergarten and she'll be able to go to the public school up the street for 1st grade. I am trying to get her involved with the Girl Scout program there this year so the transition next year will be smoother. I hope she is happy with my choice when she gets older. It's so hard knowing the choices you make for them now will have repercussions the rest of their lives, but I have decided I'd rather do now then regret what I didn't do later. We'll see how I feel about that tomorrow when I drop her off for what feels like the longest day ever!
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
:-) I hope your daughter has fun! My son started K about two weeks ago. Let us know how it goes.
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so I'm adding homeschooling an unmotivated teen to my full-time job and 12 hours of college classes. (One of my classes is flexnet, so I have to motivate myself as well.)
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