Couldn't remember if there was a thread for this and the search function takes forever. I wasn't a fan of last season (it was hard to match the tension of season 2), but I'm liking this one - it's adding a whole different kind of tension as Dexter struggles to adapt to a new social environment.
I loved the moment in last episode when he's trying to figure out how to talk to his now teenage daughter, and can't wait to see the fallout of the ending, where his wife sees him smash the lamp.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm not thrilled to see Lundy come back, although I can hope it is going to be a brief visit (haven't watched ep3 yet; probably silly to hope it is THAT brief). That character just annoys me in ways that I think are unintended.
I'm hoping they give an honest treatment to the "working long hours all the time" excuse that Dexter is currently giving to Rita; by rights she should be deeply suspicious about how he spends his time at this point. I'll try not to get too hung up on it but it would be annoying if they ignore all the backstory with his fake addiction and the mistrust that should have created.
Lithgow is so far quite creepy. I'm wondering whether this turns into yet another kindred spirit gambit or if Dexter will be trying to kill him sooner than later (it seems awfully likely that Dexter will end up killing him).
As someone else pointed out somewhere, the opening episode employed a rather weak premise. Of all people, Dexter Morgan is one who would take sleepless nights with a newborn in stride.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm not annoyed by Lundy at all, not sure what about him bothers you. I didn't have too much trouble swallowing the "Dexter is tired" issue. I haven't been responsible for a baby and maybe they're not as bad as they're often characterized as, but I can see a big difference between "takes a long night a few days a month" and "continuously isn't getting enough sleep for month(s) at a time, on top of being stressed out from not being able to get his fix."
This episode definitely builds the "Rita is getting suspicious of Dexter" thing, although not for quite the reasons you'd expect.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Oh, man, I don't know how Dex is going to get out of this. Rita is going to go ballistic!
What I don't get... you know, Dexter could have gone out like a regular guy, with the headlamp and all, and busted the vandal. Instead, he had to do it the creepy way.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I think (and I probably would have been too in his situation) that he was a little confused about how to catch the vandal in a "normal" way without seeming creepy or drawing attention to himself, coupled with the fact that he had tried a few times to be "one of the guys" and failed, and figured it was easier to do it in a way where no one would know it was him.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I'm not annoyed by Lundy at all, not sure what about him bothers you. I didn't have too much trouble swallowing the "Dexter is tired" issue. I haven't been responsible for a baby and maybe they're not as bad as they're often characterized as, but I can see a big difference between "takes a long night a few days a month" and "continuously isn't getting enough sleep for month(s) at a time, on top of being stressed out from not being able to get his fix."
This episode definitely builds the "Rita is getting suspicious of Dexter" thing, although not for quite the reasons you'd expect.
I'm not sure I can pin down anything about Lundy in particular. Although, when I think about the impression of him I have, I picture his facial expressions...something about them seems sort of forced, maybe. *shrug*
I suppose chronic lack of sleep might be a fair reason for Dexter to be more tired than he'd get from frequent but intermittent lack of sleep.
Anyway I'm glad it's back on.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
[This is Xavier on Niki's laptop]
Dexter, this is your dead adopted father. I'm here to point out things the audience already knows, and not advance the plot or drama in any way. We're going to do this 10 times an episode from now on, not because it adds anything to the show, but because the actor who plays me has kids to feed.
Niki and I have started fast forwarding through the dead father dialogs. The first season had relevant and interesting flashbacks to Dexter's childhood. The last two seasons have this stupid dead father conversation trope that we were hoping would finally be abandoned. Michael C Hall is probably used to talking to dead people on Six Feet Under, but there it was usually interesting and relevant.
Anyway, while this season is probably better than the last one so far, but it still is a pale shadow of the first two seasons. I didn't really buy the tired Dexter thing either. We don't need (or want) an incompetent Dexter.
I have a Soprano's collector book I was reading last week where David Chase says something along the lines of "we'll follow any character, no matter how much of a monster, so long as he's good at it." To me that is a pretty brilliant observation. I think Dexter is most interesting to me when he does his thing with skill and efficiency. When a character starts to do poorly at their "job" for the sake of drama, I start losing interest.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I havent seen the latest episode, but i still dont like that there is no explanation for the fact that he still has his apartment. Is it still furnished? does Rita know? if so how does he get away with such a creepy and useless spending of money?
Is anyone else a bit dissapointed in Angel and Maria? I thought they were married to thier jobs more than that. Angel has really become my favorite character, because he really is just a good guy, but boning the boss and taking things personally is not who I thought he was.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I thought they were married to thier jobs more than that. Angel has really become my favorite character, because he really is just a good guy, but boning the boss and taking things personally is not who I thought he was.
His record for romance so far:
1) Divorced from his wife (season 1). 2) Framed for date rape because he went after Lila even after being warned by Dexter (season 2). 3) Gets caught soliciting prostitution from a cop, and then dates the cop (season 3). 4) Hooks up with his boss (season 4).
Out of these, I'd say the last one is the healthiest of his romantic subplots .
Posted by manji (Member # 11600) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Is anyone else a bit dissapointed in Angel and Maria? I thought they were married to thier jobs more than that. Angel has really become my favorite character, because he really is just a good guy, but boning the boss and taking things personally is not who I thought he was.
Are you kidding? With the way Angel's marriage ended up and his fling with that officer in Vice, it seems to me this is entirely in character. Also, remember how Maria had a bit of a weird crush on Dexter in season 1? How she used sex to drive a wedge between her boss and her boss's fiancé? I don't have any trouble believing this about either of the characters.
[ October 13, 2009, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: manji ]
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Okay fine, I just hoped that he would stop having unhealthy relationships for one frakking season, and I dont know.... he still does have a kid right? she didnt die or anything so why not have him be a dad for once. I should be happy that they still let him wear the hats, he has some awesome hats.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Oh my.
Posted by J-Put (Member # 11752) on :
It's like they're in my head. I want it to happen...and then it does.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
So... he's definitely dead. Is she?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
For a moment I thought they were going to be gutsy enough to kill both of them, but I'm guessing no based on the last second or so.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Deb has to live so that she can carry on Lundy's quest for the trinity killer.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Well, Dex can do that. But yeah, she's probably still alive.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by J-Put: It's like they're in my head. I want it to happen...and then it does.
Heh. Yeah.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yesterday's was pretty intense. I was wondering how they were gonna deal with the fact that Arthur was too pathetic for a satisfying kill.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Or that she's his daughter. I didn't see that coming. I thought he was going for another bathtub victim.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I was actually glad she turned out to be his daughter, in particular after learning she shot Deb, because otherwise she was just way to random.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I had her pegged a couple of episodes ago as Lundy's killer. I did not see the daughter thing coming, though.
She knows both Dexter and Trinity. I wonder if this will lead to some tension. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I have to say I think the way the series is unpacking the Arthur Mitchell family is pretty great. First he's a variation on the lone psychopath, then he's a man with a happy family life and a pillar of the community. Dexter develops a crush. Then he needs to avenge Deb, but still has his crush. Then layer after layer of Arthur's veneer peels off, the truth about his family life starts to come out, and now we know his elder daughter is something profoundly twisted as well. And now Dexter's having another crisis of conscience over how he's going to affect his own family.
I just didn't see how involved the Trinity storyline would get, and I'm starting to think this will match season 2.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I had her pegged a couple of episodes ago as Lundy's killer. I did not see the daughter thing coming, though.
So why did you think she killed Lundy before you knew she was Trinity's daughter?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Because like Raymond I thought she was too random to be there so often as a reporter/love interest, even if she sort of continued as an antagonist whose stories interfered with investigations. And the fact that we didn't see the shooting meant they were most likely planning a twist. So I decided the most likely reason for the odd character and that particular mystery was that she would end up being the killer.
I didn't, however, think of a motive. I'm still not sure where they are going with that. Daddy/daughter team? Her initiation? Trying to protect her father?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Because like Raymond I thought she was too random to be there so often as a reporter/love interest, even if she sort of continued as an antagonist whose stories interfered with investigations. And the fact that we didn't see the shooting meant they were most likely planning a twist. So I decided the most likely reason for the odd character and that particular mystery was that she would end up being the killer.
I didn't, however, think of a motive. I'm still not sure where they are going with that. Daddy/daughter team? Her initiation? Trying to protect her father?
Maybe she thinks that'll make Daddy love her. Too bad for her, if so.
See, I just thought she was going to turn into a stalker nightmare for Quinn, and maybe kill him. This is why I don't write for TV.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:See, I just thought she was going to turn into a stalker nightmare for Quinn, and maybe kill him.
Now that you mention it, I think it's quite likely to play out this way. Quinn is the new Doakes, after all. If you're right, are you going to go into TV writing?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
<grin> Who knows, maybe.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: ...however careful Dexter is, he's eventually going to kill someone who doesn't deserve it (after all, our justice system does that while demanding a higher standard of proof than Dexter does).
Hey! I was right.
He brooded about that but only briefly and they dropped it in the next episode. I'm not very satisfied with that. He shouldn't be able to shrug it off.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I don't think he's shrugged it off. He's just busy with other things right now.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
He gives it at least some thought in the last episode. And to be fair, there's a LOT of stuff going on right now to be distracting.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
just started watching Dexter, its pretty awesome its like Death Note without magic but with all the intellectual mind games.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I'm wondering if we'll get more of the backstory with Christine. Different mother? If she didn't spend that much time with Arthur how could she get so messed up over him? Just longing to have more of the attention he cruelly withheld for so long?
I keep wondering when/if Dexter will conclude that outing Arthur to the police will be a better idea than continuing to fail to stop him personally.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Huh. Still no real backstory with Christine, and it's not looking like we're getting more (I don't see Arthur taking time to explain it next episode).
I knew how the episode was going to end the whole time, but didn't expect it to be so casually face to face the way it was. Gah.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Dexter looked so small and vulnerable when Arthur was walking up to him.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah, I really liked that shot.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
It was a good episode. Looking forward to the next one.
I think I'm OK not really knowing Christine better. I doubt they could fill in the blanks in a way that I'd find satisfying. It's kind of weird saying that I appreciate a character for not being well developed, but I think in this case that's what I'm saying. She's meant to be a satellite to Arthur (albeit in an eccentric orbit).
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I didn't like that Dexter killed someone in this last episode based off what sounded like one line in a police report. I'd think after killing an innocent he'd try to be 100% sure on his next kill.
Anyway, finally caught up with this thread. Niki and I have been one week behind on our DVR with Dexter every week, so haven't been able to open the thread until now.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I actually kinda liked that kill. While they didn't make it that explicit, I'm willing to assume Dexter did enough homework, and it was a, um, "nice" reminder that when he's not going up against someone like Arthur, he's pretty damn good at what he does.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Wow. Wow. Wow.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
That ending scene was incredible. I felt blown away.
I LOVE that they've taken a risk. The show was starting to run a little flat for me. I'm annoyed that Debra didn't connect more pieces about the Ice Truck Killer and Dexter- why *did* Dexter know where he had taken her, etc, etc. I really hope that they take that angle further than where it currently is.
I'm curious what's going to happen with the kids now. Surely Dexter gets Harrison, but what about Cody and Astor? I'm guessing they'll go to Rita or Paul's parents. I hope the police investigation gets at least a little tough for Dexter. Where was he when it all happened? Maybe a mention of this "Kyle Butler" that Arthur's family would surely have talked about to the police. He's been getting off far too easily lately, but with this risk I feel a renewed hope for the show.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
God damn. Another 9 months before we can even BEGIN to get resolution on this?
A TV guide interview mentioned they were doing something pretty crazy with the finale, and this was one of the possibilities I considered. I actually had expected Dexter to have to kill Arthur in front of Rita, showing her the monster at point blank range. I'm not sure whether this is better or worse (at least in terms of potential plot).
The baby in the blood is clever symmetry, but honestly feels a little gimmicky. Flashing back and forth between baby Dexter and baby Harrison felt excessive - it's not like I needed help to make the connection.
In the original books I heard that Astor and Cody saw Rita beaten and raped by Paul, and that later on they start showing psycopathic tendencies and eventual become Dexter's prodigies. In the show the kids were way too well adjusted for that to be an issue. I guess they didn't want to deal with it initially and having the kids be all glum for multiple seasons before finally doing something with it would telegraph the plot. I assume they're trying to do something similar here, although if Harrison ages in real time I'm not sure how.
@Amanecer - I don't know what custody laws state about this sort of thing, but I'd have thought that having been married to their mother and presumably a legal guardian for a year, there's no reason to take Astor and Cody away from Dexter at this point. I can't see it being good for the kids and if Dexter WASN'T a psycopath who's going to have a lot of problems of his own, it wouldn't have been good for him either.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
This is what they would call a "Wham Episode" I think. I'm in shock right now, noooooo! Not Rita!
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I suspect he will, but it'll be a series finale kind of thing.
A lot of people on the official Dexter forum really hated Rita and were happy she died. I don't get what's particularly annoying about her. I mean, she does do some things that bug Dexter, but A) all married couples have some degree of that, B) a lot of those things are perfectly normal things that happen to bug Dexter because he really wants to go out and stab somebody in the jugular at the time.
She's not a particularly interesting character, but that was kinda the point.
Posted by swbarnes2 (Member # 10225) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
This probably isn't the intent of the show, and probably wasn't in the book, but the framing device of having Dexter's dad talk to him about how to keep on killing without being detected makes it feel like Harry's the "dark passenger". Like if Harry would stop pestering him about how all he should ever be is a killer, he might not be a killer any more. Which clearly isn't right, but that's how it often comes across.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think what I found annoying about the Rita character was her general lack of acumen combined with her insistence on maintaining certain norms of happy married life. Clueless yet demanding.
I'm not happy that she died, in fact I was cringing as soon as I heard that she forgot her ID. The detached voiceover rumination that immediately ensued made me sadder than any sympathy I would have felt, though - it makes Dexter seem inhuman.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
That's what I've been thinking. And I think it may very well be intentional. Especially this season, when we've learned that Harry was corrupt in life and he's talking increasingly creepily in Dexter's head.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by swbarnes2:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
This probably isn't the intent of the show, and probably wasn't in the book, but the framing device of having Dexter's dad talk to him about how to keep on killing without being detected makes it feel like Harry's the "dark passenger". Like if Harry would stop pestering him about how all he should ever be is a killer, he might not be a killer any more. Which clearly isn't right, but that's how it often comes across.
Yes. I've been getting the sense since at least the second season that Harry essentially "made" Dexter. That without Harry's dread - and the training he imposed as a result of his despair and fear - that Dexter might have been essentially normal.
The way the apparition continues to urge Dexter to draw plans around the premise that he will never be able to change is pretty much in line with this.
Whether Harry was right or not is the question, but I've felt there's a deliberate tension around the question of whether Harry is responsible for steering Dexter into killing, instead of merely limiting the fallout.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by swbarnes2:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
This probably isn't the intent of the show, and probably wasn't in the book, but the framing device of having Dexter's dad talk to him about how to keep on killing without being detected makes it feel like Harry's the "dark passenger". Like if Harry would stop pestering him about how all he should ever be is a killer, he might not be a killer any more. Which clearly isn't right, but that's how it often comes across.
I agree with scifibum. If Harry had tried to get rid of the darkness from the get-go instead of deciding on his own that Dexter would never be able to be normal, Dexter could have been normal. He didn't become a serial killer because of what happened in the boxcar, regardless of how Brian turned out. He became a serial killer because his father convinced him he was a monster.
Harry was a horrible, horrible, abusive s**t of a father, and I hope he's rotting in hell.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
Thing was Rita grew on me as she gained her 'center' as a character, she grew spunk and guts and made me happy when she flipped the bird to her mother.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
That's probably got a tvtropes page: making someone likable by having them stand up to a domineering mother.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Irony sense tingling.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
On the subject of Harry: bear in mind that we DO have a control subject for Dexter. His brother didn't have a father figure teaching him how to kill, and things turned out pretty bad anyway. I also think there was plenty evidence for Harry to assume that there WAS something wrong with Dexter.
I do think it's legitimate to say Harry probably made things worse, and that teaching your son to be a serial killer is a generally wrong way to "help" him. The show has definitely been laying groundwork for Harry (both the real and psychological versions of him) to end up being the ultimate bad guy, but I don't think he is utterly terrible.
[ December 14, 2009, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
A similar notion is called "Rescued from the Scrappy Heap" if she was particularity unlikable at start.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: On the subject of Harry: bear in mind that we DO have a control subject for Dexter. His brother didn't have a father figure teaching him how to kill, and things turned out pretty bad anyway. I also think there was plenty evidence for Harry to assume that there WAS something wrong with Dexter.
I disagree. Note that Deb was told that he didn't adopt Brian because he was too damaged. For that to have been so obvious so quickly means there was something up with him to begin with. Remember, Harry was boinking their mother. He must have seen them prior to the shipping container.
Plus, I still think Harry is Dexter's biological father, and that that's the real reason he adopted him. And the fact that he let Dexter continue to believe he wasn't his son is just more of Harry's mind games.
I don't buy that Brian's madness was born in the shipping container, though it certainly may have exacerbated it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
For the sake of argument Harry might have seen something in Brian right away and been looking out for it in Dexter, and when he began to see it he handled it badly: seeing it as incurable, and indulging a twisted version of the sports dad syndrome, hoping to make Dexter more successful at what Harry really wanted to do: waste the bad guys.
(Actually I kind of like thinking of it as the same thing as the dad who lives out his dreams of star athleticism through his kid.)
If this is what happened, then what Harry saw could have been entirely real - maybe Dexter was going to be like Brian. In that case Harry's code was better than a less mitigated pattern of killing. Or it could have been something relatively mild - think Peter Wiggin - that Dexter would have grown out of. Or it could have been something in the middle, that maybe could have been contained or directed in even more benign ways, leaving Dexter more of a chance at a normal life. Medication, therapy...there were many things that could have been tried.
No matter whether Harry's perceptions were accurate, though, I think the case has been made that the choice Harry made was ultimately harmful. Doakes, the photographer, now Rita - the innocent (more or less) body count is piling up. If Harry had done his best to give Dexter normality, it might have been better to have him institutionalized as a last resort rather than pushed toward a lifetime of entitled vigilante compulsive killings. Dexter himself might have had a happier life (considering recent developments) had he been blocked from acting on his compulsions.
I think my desire to see Dexter redeemed from monsterhood might be a little Pollyannish, since the whole point of the character is that he is a serial killer, someone who kills without remorse...but without a little glimmer of hope for an escape from his hell, the whole thing is just a little too depressing. Obviously the show is trying to keep that question open, as well, so at least I'm not entirely in denial about the whole thing.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:For the sake of argument Harry might have seen something in Brian right away and been looking out for it in Dexter, and when he began to see it he handled it badly: seeing it as incurable, and indulging a twisted version of the sports dad syndrome, hoping to make Dexter more successful at what Harry really wanted to do: waste the bad guys.
I think this sums it up perfectly. Given that, from day 1, Dexter HASN'T felt any kind of remorse indicates that he was at least somewhat damaged. I think there's plenty of room to think Harry did a lot things that made a bad situation worse without saying he is entirely responsible for Dexter's condition.
quote:Harry didn't bother to tell Dexter he was his dad
Now that IS a good point, and I'm not sure any of the current theories on the table adequately explain it. What kind of mind games would that have actually helped with, other than hiding the fact that Harry had an affair? (That might have been reason enough)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I do think it's legitimate to say Harry probably made things worse, and that teaching your son to be a serial killer is a generally wrong way to "help" him. The show has definitely been laying groundwork for Harry (both the real and psychological versions of him) to end up being the ultimate bad guy, but I don't think he is utterly terrible.
I forgot to mention that I agree with this: Harry was not a terrible person, just someone with a complementary set of tragic flaws. Couldn't bear to betray (as he saw it) the kid whose early life was so traumatic, couldn't see past his hardened view of bad guys and the justice system, didn't understand any other way to help Dexter...a messed up guy for sure, though.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm not sure whether you were phrasing that as a disagreement with me or not, because my post was a little vague on the "is Harry actually bad or not?" I generally agree with you about him having a lot of problems but not being terrible. But that's generally the point of the show: even people who do terrible things have a lot of moral greyness. Arthur was certainly an irredeemable monster by the time Dexter got to him, but the situations that led to that weren't his fault.
When I say Harry is the ultimate bad guy I mean not that he's more of a monster than various other people on the show, merely that he'll be the final challenge Dexter needs to overcome.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think I agree with you. (Sorry for the confusing wording.)
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:Originally posted by swbarnes2:
quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Dunno what I think of it yet. Without suspension of disbelief, I'm not sad the Rita character is gone. She was annoying. But with it. Damn. I suppose they want future seasons, but I keep hoping Dexter (TV Dexter) will get to jettison the dark passenger.
This probably isn't the intent of the show, and probably wasn't in the book, but the framing device of having Dexter's dad talk to him about how to keep on killing without being detected makes it feel like Harry's the "dark passenger". Like if Harry would stop pestering him about how all he should ever be is a killer, he might not be a killer any more. Which clearly isn't right, but that's how it often comes across.
The incessant appearances by Harry lately really was one of the few downers for this season for me. I guess the writers' needed some new way to help the audience get inside Dexter's head. His external life is reaching new levels of normality and so is his ability to act appropriately despite his dark desires. But picking Harry was just the wrong approach.
I am NO fan of the books. I find the plots unimaginative and all of the cast aside from Dexter is painfully boring. I like that the tv shows lets us enjoy characters like Batista and Masuka in a deeper way than the books describe. But one thing the novelized series is good at, is really portraying Dexter as some who is truly damaged and completely emotionally disconnected from the world around him.
This season, I feel like we've been hearing about the "Dark Passenger" alot more than in the past but we haven't been seeing It. And are we seeing fewer kills as the seasons go on? This season just felt like alot of whining about how dark and doomed Dexter is but he hasn't been doing as much killing. We've seen alot of bright and fuzzy Harry, but very little Dark Dexter. Too much talking, not enough blood.
If Rita's death doesn't send him into a complete freaking tail spin, I don't know what will. I was honestly very upset to see her go. I admit it, I teared up alittle. Yes, she was annoying and kinda dense but in her own naive way, she WAS Dexter's moral compass. She grounded him in ways his father never could and hopefully Dexter will realize this and start to give up the Daddy Issues. Its Dexter's devotion to his family that is going to save him more than Harry's Code.
The problem seems to be that Dexter thinks too highly of his "familial devotion." He feels the tiniest bit of emotion for them and thinks it enough. If he HAD thought of them more, he might not have put himself in a place that would have led to Arthur discovering his identity and going after Dexter's family. If he had been as meticulous with securing his family out of town as he is with his kills, maybe he could have protected Rita.
Its seems his motivation for going after Arthur had less to do with protecting his family, and more to do with Dexter's own dark and prideful desires. Harry's Code depends on Dexter's being alone. And Dexter can't go back no matter how many silly talks he has with Harry. But if he can embrace his family's well being above his own, that is going to be the only thing that can save him.
As long as Rita doesn't come back as some weird imaginary ghost next season, it should be a good one!
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
"As long as Rita doesn't come back as some weird imaginary ghost next season, it should be a good one!"
Oh geez, I hadn't thought of that. *Shiver*
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I dunno... Harry's voice sounds like choclate to my ears as if Liam Neeson was there.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I think this sums it up perfectly. Given that, from day 1, Dexter HASN'T felt any kind of remorse indicates that he was at least somewhat damaged. I think there's plenty of room to think Harry did a lot things that made a bad situation worse without saying he is entirely responsible for Dexter's condition.
I don't know. I don't feel the slightest bit of horror at Dexter killing those people. I think it's a good thing he's doing. But I don't go around killing people myself. Even people who really need killing.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: there's no reason to take Astor and Cody away from Dexter at this point
In the real world, I'd imagine they'd stick with Dexter. But three kids with nobody to help seems a bit unwieldy for a serial killer on a tv show.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:But three kids with nobody to help seems a bit unwieldy for a serial killer on a tv show.
Which, of course, makes things all the more dramatic. I suspect he WILL go through a period of crisis where he doesn't think he's good enough for the kids and sends them to the grandparents for their own good, but by the end of next season he'll have dealt with the intense craziness and feel balanced enough to take them back. (Meanwhile, the kids feeling abandoned by their mother AND Dexter, forcing him to earn their trust again, will likewise make for some awesome storytelling).
@Lisa:
It don't think it matters whether, in the abstract, killing those people was the right thing to do. From everything I've heard, killing another human being has significant psychological consequences for a healthy mind. Dexter should be feeling SOMETHING other than the thrill of a successful hunt.
To be fair, Harry DID sort of go through a dehumanizing process with Dexter, talking about how they deserve it, which is probably similar to what soldiers go through. But even Harry and Doakes, a cop and soldier respectively, got visibly ill when they saw Dexter do what he does.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think the grandparents were introduced late in this season specifically for them to be set up as Astor and Cody's new guardians.
There may be some drama over who gets them, but I don't think it will last more than a couple of episodes. Dexter's thoughts when taking the baby away were specifically about how he is bad for his family IIRC, so I can see him sending them to their grandparents' for their own good.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I also predict that either:
a) Deb will figure out Dexter's deal about halfway through next season, OR
b) Dex will have so much crap going on and coincidences to explain that he will tell Deb himself, at least partly, because he's feeling guilty about getting Rita killed.
Either way, I think she might end up tolerating it if there's another big serial killer upping the ante that she ends up with a personal grudge against. Although having another such killer right after Trinity might be a bit much. So a Deb/Dexter working together situation probably wouldn't happen until season 6. (In the books, I think I heard Deb actually found out in the very first novel, when she sees Dexter and Brian together arguing about her. Anyone who's read them know what their relationship ends up being?)
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Uncomfortable. "I'm supposed to arrest people like you!" There's been enough happening to Deb in the books to keep her distracting from dealing with a very painful subject for her -- how to deal with her brother being a killer.
However, in the books Harry is still the good dad and cop who never (that we know of) diddled his informants (and has not had any connection revealed with Dexter's mom), so I have a bit of a disconnect watching the show.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: @Lisa:
It don't think it matters whether, in the abstract, killing those people was the right thing to do. From everything I've heard, killing another human being has significant psychological consequences for a healthy mind. Dexter should be feeling SOMETHING other than the thrill of a successful hunt.
I don't really believe that. I think that in a society where killing another human being has such a stigma, that might be the case to someone socialized fully, but I can't imagine I'd feel any qualms if I actually thought it was necessary.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I think the grandparents were introduced late in this season specifically for them to be set up as Astor and Cody's new guardians.
I bet they'll try to get custody of Harrison, too.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:I don't really believe that. I think that in a society where killing another human being has such a stigma, that might be the case to someone socialized fully, but I can't imagine I'd feel any qualms if I actually thought it was necessary.
Regardless, Dexter's society (i.e. ours) DOES have such a stigma, for good or for ill, and the fact that Dexter manages to be completely unperturbed suggests that there are differences between his mind and the average person. And again, Harry and Doakes are both trained combatants who HAVE killed enough for it to (presumably) not bother them that much, and they still found Dexter sickening. I'm positive that the show fully intends Dexter to be a character with a damaged sense of empathy, and that Harry was not fully responsible for that.
I do think that in the hypothetical case of Dexter, killing the people he kills is not a bad thing. (Dexter has the advantage of being fictional and hyper-skilled, so that he *usually* doesn't make the mistakes that normally go along with vigilante-ism and make it something that needs outlawing). But that doesn't mean he's a healthy individual.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
It was established in the books and the shows that Harry didn't step in until after Dexter had already begun "playing" with neighborhood dogs without remorse and with more than a little interest. Harry didn't force him, he nudged an already-aimed bullet into a slightly more acceptable path.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:I bet they'll try to get custody of Harrison, too.
I can't see why they would. He wasn't their son and from the looks of it they hadn't even met Dexter yet (he didn't know anything about them and Rita had to assure him they weren't like Paul).
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:I bet they'll try to get custody of Harrison, too.
I can't see why they would. He wasn't their son and from the looks of it they hadn't even met Dexter yet (he didn't know anything about them and Rita had to assure him they weren't like Paul).
Harrison is their grandson as much as Aster and Cody are.
Wait, I'm confused. I thought the grandparents were Rita's parents, no?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
No, the grandparents were Paul's parents. So no, they have no particular relationship with Harrison.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Perhaps Rita's mother will swoop back in, and Dexter will discover she needs killin'. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
lol.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's a bit unclear to me when exactly Harry started 'training' Dexter. The impression I remember having, and I may be mistaken about this, is that Harry had been watching Dexter carefully for the kinds of signs a budding sociopath might show. If that's the case, who can say which came first, Harry's expectations or Dexter's beginning to meet them?
Anyway...wow. Holy sh@!#. I don't know how I managed to avoid this, just never got into the 4th season I suppose, probably because I stopped getting Showtime (Dexter being the only show there I ever used to watch). But, man. I was definitely not expecting that, though I really should have. I suppose I was thinking this season would end much like the 3rd, with things wrapped up more or less nicely. Gutsy, gutsy storytelling there, but it really seems like they've written themselves into a corner here.
How will Debra not connect things further about Dexter given that Rita has been murdered this way? How will the police not uncover the mysterious and formidable strange new friend in the lives of the Mitchell family when they interview them in great and extensive detail, as they're sure to? How will none of the many police in Miami Metro Homicide not recall Arthur Mitchell entering their offices and speaking for awhile with Dexter Morgan?
ETA: From a story-telling perspective, I really like the decision to kill Rita, however much it makes me sad because I thought she was great. This is about the first time since killing his brother that Dexter will be having some real, excruciating (I imagine) personal consequences for his lifestyle and more-or-less obedience to the Code of Harry.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
It's entirely possible that Season 5 will be the last season.
If it's not, my guess is that Debra finds out pretty early on, but by the end of the season ends up helping Dexter to cover it up.
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