Enjoy this brand new fantasy epic RPG in the spirit of Baldur's Gate! Fight the darkspawn and the ever advancing blight! Try to unite the fickle warring world together to defeat the darkspawn! Evil Logain must be stopped! Seriously, all the parallels don't even end there. When children show signs of being able to do magic they are taken away to a tower and not allowed to leave. Practicing magic outside the tower is illegal. They are called "Wild Mages" I understand that high fantasy has been beat to death so much that some things have to overlap, but it's still funny to notice the parallels.
In other news, this game is fantastic. The best RPG since Baldur's Gate, I can confidently say. I haven't been so absorbed in a long time. What do you fellow think of the game/the WoT parallels? I'm most amused at how they have the same names (darkspawn, blight, Logan).
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
In the process of downloading it now. Hopefully it turns out to be as good as everyone is saying.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
enjoying it so far (once I got past some video driver issues which were causing problems with the cutscenes and conversations).
Since I'm one of those few who hasn't read WoT, I'm missing out on those parallels, but so far I'm happy with it.
Only a couple hours into the game and my one complaint is that I don't have a healer, so I'm going through healing items like water, but I'm sure that will change soon.
Also, I'm very cautiously pulling out my old Kain/Yang tactics to de-equip all my temporary party members before losing them. Fun times.
Posted by LukeP (Member # 11656) on :
I cried a little bit on the opening cut scene.
Just a little bit.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm a bit torn. The dialogue is really good, but something about Bioware games I always find slightly unenjoyable - I don't think it's a flaw in the game so much as a personal preference thing. It also kinda annoys me that we don't get to hear our characters speak the way they did in Mass Effect.
Posted by LukeP (Member # 11656) on :
That kind of bothers me as well, but it makes sense. Getting each of the voice actors (how many voice choices are there between the genders/races? 8? 16?) to read thousands upon thousands of lines of dialog would have not only been expensive, but tedious.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Well, yeah, but how much more tedious than reading everyone else's lines in the first place?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Fake Edit: Okay, I guess it would be 50 times as tedious, given that for every line of dialogue currently recorded there are 3-5 responses and 10+ voices. So yeah I guess it tmakes sense.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Y'know, none of the plot devices mentioned in the opening post are unique to WoT.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
The wizard thing is slightly less common, but yeah the rest all seemed so generic as to make any comparison meaningless.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I've never read Wheel of Time or played Baldur's Gate. The closest thing I can compare it too is Neverwinter Nights. Nevertheless, I am finding this game very enjoyable, although a bit difficult at times.
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: Also, I'm very cautiously pulling out my old Kain/Yang tactics to de-equip all my temporary party members before losing them. Fun times.
From what I've experienced I gain temporary party member's equipment when they leave. I may be mistaken though.
So what did everyone choose as a starting character?
I've got a male human noble fighter that's specializing in two handed weapons.
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I'm taking an animation class (Flash) and we just did a chapter on putting movies on the web. Part of the chapter is on preloaders. So I took a special interest in the preloader on the characters page - think I'll send the link to the teacher. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I am playing as an elf mage.
mage because they are the only class that allow you to start with non-consumable healing.
elf because elves are good at magic at the cost of some stamina you don't need anyway.
The game is buggy, you are always covered in gallons of blood when you talk to people (lol), and the DLC is such an annoying and invasive cash grab that I am simply going to pirate it.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm a female dwarf thief. (For some reason I enjoy playing little people in every game I play).
I just finished the... second Act? (The series of quests after the origin section). I was feeling a little meh about the plot until I got to the Joining , where [SPOILER] let [SPOILER] [SPOILER] and then [SPOILER]. And I was like Holy crap this guy is hardcore. And I only had such a brief time to interact with [SPOILER] but was still pretty shaken by the experience.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
quote:The developers have cited 'realistic' fantasy fiction such as George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire and fantasy paintings by artists such as Frank Frazetta as inspiration for the game.
I actually heard about this game because of it being inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire. I guess it resembles Wheel of Time too? (though the creators haven't mentioned WoT at all) Regardless, I love Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, so I'll have to get this soon.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I saw the post-Joining twist coming, but still thought it was executed extremely well.
Samp, I don't think pirating the DLC because you're annoyed with it is the right answer. The DLC is a pretty obvious attempt to reduce the impact of the secondary market on sales of new copies.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm not currently sure what the deal is with the downloadable content. How much does it cost and how much "game" does it contain?
Frankly I'm impressed enough with the game that I think it probably is worth paying additional money for whatever they've done beyond the basic game, assuming the basic game has a proper ending.
The only thing that really bothers me so far is the arbitrary collider-walls they put up everywhere. I can't climb down a pile of rocks - I have to walk all the way around through camp to talk to a guy 10 feet away. Nor can I walk through shallow water. If I can't swim, that's fine, it's the middle ages, but I should be able to walk through a 2 foot deep pond. Even if I'm a dwarf. Grrr.
[Spoilertalk] (Don't read till you've hit the third chapter)
-
-
quote:I saw the post-Joining twist coming, but still thought it was executed extremely well.
Are you referring to the events OF the Joining or those that follow shortly afterwards? I foresaw the latter, didn't really foresee the former. I was expecting the one guy to die (he was obviously an unlikeable twit), but I didn't expect the archer-rogue to go out like that. I waited for a few seconds, still thinking "wait, he's gonna get up, right?" And then TOTALLY was not expecting the recruiter to go all hardcore on the cowardly dude. That was really disturbing to watch, since he's so brutal and dispassionate about it, but keeps that sad wise face on the whole time.
I really like Alister (sp?). I hope he and my dwarf chick hook up later. (And I hope they don't kill him off shortly afterwards)
[ November 06, 2009, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I'm not currently sure what the deal is with the downloadable content. How much does it cost and how much "game" does it contain?
There's a $15 piece that provides some significant additional game play but a code for it is bundled with the retail disc. The only people that will have to buy this are those who pick up the game second-hand. (and renters)
There's also a $7 piece that includes some extra quests and abilities, but the controversial bit is that it includes a storage chest thingy that gives you somewhere to store extra loot. A lot of people object to paying for bag space.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I purchased the game last night through Steam, and it was almost midnight when it finally finished downloading and installing, so I haven't played it much, or rooted around much in the install directory - but I don't see that it came with a User Manual. Most games I've purchased off Steam usually provide a user manual in pdf. Does anyone know if a pdf user manual is available?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Are you referring to the events OF the Joining or those that follow shortly afterwards? I foresaw the latter, didn't really foresee the former.
The latter, yeah. I agree with you on the former. That was awesome.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: There's a $15 piece that provides some significant additional game play but a code for it is bundled with the retail disc. The only people that will have to buy this are those who pick up the game second-hand. (and renters)
Really? I ordered mine through Amazon and all I've seen was a code for some armor that I've got to lug around for 20 levels before I can wear it. Is this really supposed to come with all retail copies or am I just blind and missing it somewhere?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
D&%$ you ALL, I can't afford a new game now. Not because of cost, but because graduation is around the corner.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: Really? I ordered mine through Amazon and all I've seen was a code for some armor that I've got to lug around for 20 levels before I can wear it. Is this really supposed to come with all retail copies or am I just blind and missing it somewhere?
If you got the dragon armor code off a card, The $15 Shale quest should be on the opposite side of the card.
I kind of expected what happened during the joining, although that didn't stop it from being interesting to watch.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
So far pretty awesome, like playing Neverwinter Knights 2, crastacular though in the Ostagan camp.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
There's a patch out to make the normal and easy difficulties more in line with what they are supposed to be, although some people are reporting problems after installation, so try at your own risk.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
JANEWAY! ITS CAPTAIN JANEWAY!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you pick the right dialogue options, Blayne, you can make her cackle. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILER-ish question
Has anyone been able to survive the undead attack on Redcliffe with Mayor Murdock alive? I've tried multiple times without success.
SPOILER-ish question Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm actually having trouble getting the fight to actually HAPPEN. I killed a few waves of them, and then they appear to stop coming.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm guessing you're referring to the first wave, up by the mill? I noticed a delay, but they didn't stop-it just took a good while.
Funny thing, the first playthrough they came by pairs and it was no problem. The second playthrough, though, I loaded an autosave that started right at the beginning of the fight, with the green mist wafting down the hill. That time they all came down at once. Much more exciting.
But the fight I'm referring to is the second one, down in the town by the bonfire, where you're fighting alongside militia, not nights.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
It's been like 10 minutes and nobody's showed up yet. I'm still with the knights.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If you pick the right dialogue options, Blayne, you can make her cackle.
I got her to cackle twice!
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: It's been like 10 minutes and nobody's showed up yet. I'm still with the knights.
I had a similar situation so I headed over toward the source of the attackers and found one "stuck" undead corpse guy just standing there. After killing him things got going again.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Eventually I got it to work. (I had searched everywhere I could think of for "stuck" creatures. Another forum suggested that, but to no avail). I think the issue is there's some kind of bug if you go up to the source of the undead when they're in the middle of spawning - the game doesn't want to spawn them when you're standing right next to them, and then it just stops spawning them period.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Heh, how strange. We've got three distinctly different outcomes to that one little scenario.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Evidently.
BTW, is there some kind of achievement for getting through the whole game without Morrigan getting pissed at you? (And achievement that evidently hinges on you avoiding every single side quest)
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I've only finished one quest post-Ostagar, and Morrigan is pretty into me. Sure, she was a little grumpy when I told her we were going to help the Circle mages, but she was thrilled when I found her mother's black grimoire and gave it to her.
Ideally I think I'd want my party to be Morrigan, Alistair, and Rufus (my dog), because Alistair has great banter with both Morrigan and Rufus. However, since I'm mainly an entropy mage, that leaves us with too much on the debuff front and too little on the non-consumable healing front, especially since I want to become a blood mage. Right now I have Alistair, Rufus, and Wynne, but even though Wynne is an outstanding healer and buffer, I really feel like my party has lost something on the banter front without Morrigan.
Added: Although I did really enjoy listening to Alistair rant at Wynne about my entanglement with Morrigan. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Right now, I'm in Redcliffe. My party consists of myself, Human Noble rogue, Morrigan, Alistair, and Sten, a 'qunari warrior', whatever that is-it's not exactly clear yet. That gives me some serious combat power, but I also go through healing poultices in any extended fight.
On the roster is also Smithy, my mabari wardog, and a human rogue whose name I don't recall right now, because I, well, never use her being a rogue myself, heh.
I remember Wynne from Ostagar, but I haven't seen her again. I wonder, is she someone who becomes available if you head to the Circle Mages, as opposed to Redcliffe?
ETA: Strangely, this game has made me even hungrier for Mass Effect 2, heh. I think the trigger for that was the banter-moments, apparently triggered often by bridges. It reminded me of the elevators in ME1. Man, that whole sci-fi geo-political shooter RPG angle was awesome:)
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You might want to keep an eye on Alpha Protocol -- an espionage shooter RPG by Obsidian, the KotOR 2 and NWN 2 guys who mostly used to be in Black Isle.
My character is an elf mage.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Right now I'm at Redcliffe and I'm using myself (melee specced Dwarf Rogue), Morrigan, Allistar and Leliana (who I'm range speccing so there's not so much overlap).
My main character actually feels pretty useless a lot of the time. Somehow she always seems to be running around instead of actually stabbing people. (It particularly bothers me that if someone is charging me, I can't seem to interrupt them with a Dirty Fighting stun - they just keep running past while the character takes a few seconds to prepare the attack.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Wynne is at the Circle, yes. And I actually strongly recommend going there before Redcliffe, in general.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Too late for that now, I think-I'm neck deep in Redcliffe, having survived the night's attack. I'm not sure if I can just leave without there being some serious repurcussions.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Do the encounters scale automatically as you level so you can take them in whatever order?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Heh, I've got no idea. I suspect they do, though, if the game is anything like Mass Effect (and I think it might be;))
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't think it's all that much like Mass Effect, actually. IIRC, Dragon Age development started first, and I know that ME and DA used different engines. ME uses Unreal Engine 3, while DA uses an in-house engine (Eclipse, I think, the successor to the Aurora engine from NWN).
I went to the Circle first, but that was because I was a mage and wanted to go back. Now I'm in the forest with the Dalish elves.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, I didn't mean a lot like Mass Effect, just some little things. The murkiness of some choices is evocative of ME for me, though early on in this game, the choices are a lot murkier. The little banter-trigger spots being another.
Of course it's possible it's not like ME at all and I'm only saying that because I know it, heh. But I'm surprised to hear Dragon Age started before ME, considering ME came out so much earlier that Dragon Age is now close to ME2.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
I'm not sure if the encounters scale, and it's actually one of my main gripes with the game.
I have to assume that the encounters do scale, but if they do it's not super smooth in my opinion. i.e. I had a tough time with some of the Elf side-quest, but have been breezing through Redcliffe and The Circle Tower with hardly a health potion used... Also, The loot distribution started pretty shaky with things like the Juggernaut armor which I managed to get at like lvl 5-6, but which I won't be able to wear until ~lvl 13 with Alistair pumping everything into str.
On a side note: I'm assuming the map location in the NW is an entrance to the Dwarf City? I haven't been there yet since the description just says something about being the stepping stone to Orlais, which I don't currently have any interest in visiting (assuming you ever can).
Additionally, my Dalish dual-wielding rogue is rediculously powerful as of lvl 10 or so... It's also impressive that while I appreciated having Wynne in the party for the circle tower, my party of Alistair, Morrigan and Liliana does quite well with no non-consumable healing (now that I have a decent stash of pots)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You all suck. Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Does anyone else have a really hard time switching out party members after playing for a while. I get a few people I like early on in the game, get them leveled and outfitted how I like them, and then I just can't bring myself to swap them out for someone else. I keep sending prospective party members to camp to rot. I seem to have this problem with every party-based RPG that I play.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Yeah I'm frustrated by the RPGs that continuously introduce new characters in that manner. I liked the beginning of Dragon Age where party members rotated in and out based on storyline, as opposed to "Okay, I'm gonna make Morrigan magically disappear now so I don't have to listen to her glower every time I offer some random guy help, and now Leliana is magically here."
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Oh, by the way: is Dog really a viable party member? For a while I used him in place of Alistar but I seemed to do worse. I did the first fight in Redcliffe with him instead of Morrigan and I guess I did okay but the fight felt pretty easy to me period.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
OFFICIAL GAME BALANCE REPORT:
mages are op
archery sucks
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
well, come on...
One can harness the powers of the elements, call upon the strength of demons, turn enemies against each other with visions of terror and confusion.
The other can shoot some arrows, occasionally causing those arrows to explode and rain splinters down into nearby enemies...
Did you expect anything different?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: Does anyone else have a really hard time switching out party members after playing for a while. I get a few people I like early on in the game, get them leveled and outfitted how I like them, and then I just can't bring myself to swap them out for someone else. I keep sending prospective party members to camp to rot. I seem to have this problem with every party-based RPG that I play.
Yeah, though I did wind up switching a couple out anyways. At the moment, my party is Alistair, Wynne, and Zevran, with my character being an arcane warrior. So far, it's been a pretty good mix for me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Archery's not bad, but you need to have real tanks drawing aggro for it to be viable. I find that archers do okay if they're also able to use poisons and bombs. It's probably better to go with the dual-wield rogue for DPS, except that I hear daggers are currently slightly broken on the PC version (i.e. DEX doesn't contribute to damage like it should.)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: well, come on...
One can harness the powers of the elements, call upon the strength of demons, turn enemies against each other with visions of terror and confusion.
The other can shoot some arrows, occasionally causing those arrows to explode and rain splinters down into nearby enemies...
Did you expect anything different?
class balance
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Archery's not bad, but you need to have real tanks drawing aggro for it to be viable. I find that archers do okay if they're also able to use poisons and bombs. It's probably better to go with the dual-wield rogue for DPS, except that I hear daggers are currently slightly broken on the PC version (i.e. DEX doesn't contribute to damage like it should.)
You realize that in a PC game when discussing balance, saying something is "broken" usually means it's over powered right? Gimped works better for what you are trying to say. There should be words other than Gimped but for some reason they are all escaping me.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
nerfed?
There should never be balance between a mage and a mundane. EVER except the X^2 variant of them being squishy in the beginning.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:There should never be balance between a mage and a mundane. EVER except the X^2 variant of them being squishy in the beginning.
Pft, nonsense. I realize arguing anything other than, "OMG wizards are TEH AWESOME!" with you is doomed to failure, but there are plenty of perfectly plausible, enjoyable systems where mundane and arcane are balanced-for example systems which involve mages needing to take actual time to cast spells, even the ones that root an enemy solid, and being able to be actually interrupted by damage, as opposed to an easily-dealt-with chance of interruption.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Nerfed" implies that it is something that has been done after the fact, to deliberately power down some class feature. "Gimped" is what you're looking for.
In my case, however, despite how the MMOers have mangled the language, I specifically meant "broken," in the sense that the daggers, which were supposed to be coded so that DEX added to damage, are not behaving that way. I suppose, if I were talking to a twelve-year-old who'd only learned English from WoW, I'd say "bugged" instead.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:There should never be balance between a mage and a mundane. EVER except the X^2 variant of them being squishy in the beginning.
Pft, nonsense. I realize arguing anything other than, "OMG wizards are TEH AWESOME!" with you is doomed to failure, but there are plenty of perfectly plausible, enjoyable systems where mundane and arcane are balanced-for example systems which involve mages needing to take actual time to cast spells, even the ones that root an enemy solid, and being able to be actually interrupted by damage, as opposed to an easily-dealt-with chance of interruption.
There can be systems where both classes can be fun to play but never should there ever be a system where going head to head should there be a situation where the fighter has a 50/50 chance of beating the wizard/mage if the mage is prepared for it at higher levels.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
First of all, the term "Broken" comes from Magic: The Gathering. It predates MMOs. It means something is so powerful that it breaks the game. Second of all, I think BlackBlade's (I think you may have assumed it was Blayne's) comment wasn't intended to be critical so much as informative. We knew what you meant, but right now, you ARE discussing a game with other gamers, and in that context I think it makes sense to at least be aware of the lexicon that has accumulated around gaming culture. Comparisons to 12 year olds are unnecessary.
As for mages: I'm a bit torn on this. I do think it's fine for a game to enforce game balance for the sake of game balance because that's ultimately what matters. (Or rather, "Fun" matters and an important part of fun is variety and an important part of variety is balanced options).
But I think for magic to actually be meaningful as *magic* it DOES need to be able to do amazing things that normal objects can't accomplish. I think there are legitimate ways to balance it (Magic that takes a long time to prepare, Magic that drains years of your life, Magic that can only be used during the Full Moon, Magic requires you to spend levels 1-6 feeling completely useless until you finally master your power). But those things don't translate well to a game of balanced classes, where a wizard alternates from feeling useless to making everyone else feel useless.
The wizards here aren't intentionally overpowered for flavor reasons to my knowledge - Bioware just did the math wrong, and I'm fine with them fixing it. But I would like to see more games that capture magic's feel of being awe inspiring instead of just a slightly flashier way of dealing X DPS.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, the term "broken" predates both Magic and MMOs. It means "something that does not work."
quote:I think it makes sense to at least be aware of the lexicon that has accumulated around gaming culture. Comparisons to 12 year olds are unnecessary.
If gamers as a population have regressed to the point that they are now incapable of actually determining which of a word's meanings is being intended from context, comparisons to 12-year-olds are absolutely necessary.
Believe me, I know the lingo. However, I'll be d**ned if I let Hatrack fill up with threads about how they've nerfed pallies. *grin*
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
In the case of DAO though unless I'm not putting enough points into mana or something arent "that" strong unless theres some combination of skills I am overlooking as generally in any given fight I empty my mana pool after 3 spells (with about half of it reserved for the persistant buffs) and forced to use my staff to do anything after that and constantly drain mana potions.
Maybe this changes past level 6 but right now I'm feeling the burn.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The main complaint: Because of their high armor penetration and range, mage staffs seem to be better ranged weapons than bows. Given that a mage's spells are generally more useful and varied than an archer's talents, and that a mage will -- due to a high Willpower -- be able to cast those spells more often than an archer will be able to use his talents, a mage is almost always going to be better than an archer. Since you can only have four people in your party, it doesn't appear to make a lot of sense to make one of them a specialized archer.
I actually think the four-member limit is the game's biggest weakness at this point. If they'd permit five party members, I think a lot of interesting options would open up.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:If gamers as a population have regressed to the point that they are now incapable of actually determining which of a word's meanings is being intended from context, comparisons to 12-year-olds are absolutely necessary.
Forgive us twelve year olds for having a hard time telling which old people are being ironic and which are being clueless. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I do see one major benefit to playing as a mage: not having to slot up for tactics.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* Morrigan in particular is proving a tad hard to manage without constantly pausing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Now that I've got Heal, a group stun, a target stun, a debuffing hex spell, it is awkward.
Especially since the often most useful spell, the group stunning spell, involves running her up into the action to get some effectiveness, using the spell, and running her away.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, I just found a quest that by all appearances is impossible. It's to investigate an attacked caravan, from the chanter's board. I arrive and there are four refugees being attacked by at least a dozen darkspawn, melee and ranged both and an orange emissary. Even if I cranked down the difficulty and kept Morrigan entirely on healing the refugees, I can't see any way to actually save even one or two of the refugees.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:As for mages: I'm a bit torn on this. I do think it's fine for a game to enforce game balance for the sake of game balance because that's ultimately what matters. (Or rather, "Fun" matters and an important part of fun is variety and an important part of variety is balanced options).
All that matters is that when you release the game, each of the classes is comparable to each other as an equally valid tactical option for playing the game. There's too many games where the choice of classes or class options is less an expression of how you want to play the game and more a minigame where if you make the wrong choice, your character or party is gimped.
Dragon Age isn't so bad, but still, mages need to be toned down and they need to make archers actually compelling.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I suspect that'll happen, Samp. Games often tweak like that after all, and it hasn't been out long:)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah we have the advantage of living in an age of online updates, even for consoles.
Also I am going to mention that "delayed gratification" classes — that start sucky and then grow overpowered — are emblematic of bad game design and are a big part of why 3rd edition D&D vanished abnormally fast in the wake of the unambiguously superior4th edition. We should not be 'purposefully' designing mages that way, and Bioware knows it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm managing much better now that I'm using tactics a bit more intelligently. Though at the rate we would suck down healing poultices without Morrigan's one healing spell, I'm seriously considering ditching her and going to grab the other caster, the dedicated healer, in spite of how fun she (Morrigan) is.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: "Nerfed" implies that it is something that has been done after the fact, to deliberately power down some class feature. "Gimped" is what you're looking for.
In my case, however, despite how the MMOers have mangled the language, I specifically meant "broken," in the sense that the daggers, which were supposed to be coded so that DEX added to damage, are not behaving that way. I suppose, if I were talking to a twelve-year-old who'd only learned English from WoW, I'd say "bugged" instead.
But Tom, computer gamers are just as specialized a group as, veterinarians, gardeners, model builders, and lawyers. It's common for those groups to take words that mean one thing to most people and use it repeatedly in a specialized scenario so that the word takes on a new meaning germane to the group.
I guessed you knew the word "broken" could have been used, but I wasn't certain. The phrase "nerf pallies" by itself is kinda childish, but talking about class mechanics and then summing up with "In summation, I think they overnerfed the class" isn't childish.
I guess I just felt that while I understood what you were saying, the word broken having the exact opposite meaning in a conversation regarding PC games, might lead less vigorous readers to gloss over the context and see the word broken and start arguing with you.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Yeah we have the advantage of living in an age of online updates, even for consoles.
Also I am going to mention that "delayed gratification" classes — that start sucky and then grow overpowered — are emblematic of bad game design and are a big part of why 3rd edition D&D vanished abnormally fast in the wake of the unambiguously superior4th edition. We should not be 'purposefully' designing mages that way, and Bioware knows it.
Not disagreeing with you, but you're the first person I've heard say that 4th edition is better than 3rd or 3.5.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I went back and forth on whether to wade into a serious argument over gaming terminology. On one hand, it's really not that big a deal one way or another. On the other hand, I don't think there's anything noble about refusing to use terminology that has become widespread in specific contexts (and more importantly, ridiculing those who do or offer a perfectly polite correction). Yes, we knew what he meant because no, we're not idiotic 12 year olds. We could also probably ascertain the meaning of a 3 year old just learning how to talk. That doesn't mean said child shouldn't make an effort to learn how the language really works and use it accordingly.
On the third hand (evidently I'm from Beeblebrox) I have all kinds of language misuse pet peeves myself (In particularly I hate the use of "Osmosis" to mean "Diffusion." No, you didn't absorb the information via Osmosis because there was no water involved in the absorption of said information. Also, woot is correctly spelled w00t). So it's a bit hypocritical of me to call someone else on it. But when I do flip out about such things I know perfectly well it's really my problem, not theirs, and I usually manage to avoid deliberately insulting them.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I thought they fixed the "Wizards over/underpowered at certain levels" IN 3rd edition. It was in 1st and second edition that Wizards actually had to earn more XP to advance than fighters did (which made "sense" insofar as Wizarding is supposed to be harder than learning to swing a sword). Maybe it still wasn't perfect in 3rd edition but I think that was a situation similar to Dragon Age - a miscalculation as opposed to a deliberate intent.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Boy, I should definitely have taken your advice about getting Wynne sooner, Tom. Heh. I'm sitting here wondering, "How much money could you have made selling off unused healing poultices?" Because so far, within the Tower at least, Wynne the Spirit Healer, two warriors, and the rogue (me) are entirely adequate.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I thought they fixed the "Wizards over/underpowered at certain levels" IN 3rd edition. It was in 1st and second edition that Wizards actually had to earn more XP to advance than fighters did (which made "sense" insofar as Wizarding is supposed to be harder than learning to swing a sword). Maybe it still wasn't perfect in 3rd edition but I think that was a situation similar to Dragon Age - a miscalculation as opposed to a deliberate intent.
Trust me, there was no deliberate intent for 3e to have had such blatantly poor class balance. It was just a fundamental failure of the game system.
The real difference is that Dragon Age's class imbalance is a fairly minor issue, easily managed with a patch. All the classes are roughly equivalent without any gaussian differences in tactical utility, so it's little more than a quirk. In D&D Third Edition, the class balance was disconcertingly egregious and overwhelmingly ingrained into the system to a point where it was impossible to excise.
Here's the guts of 3e's class balance failure.
1. In third edition, casters v. physicals was a contrast between the 'spellcaster strength' provided by the Vancian spellcasting system of text-interpretive effects versus the 'physical strength' of other classses being represented by superior progression in the numerical bonus effects represented by mechanics such as hit point pools, base attack bonuses and attack per round bonuses per level.
2. As levels progress, the text-interpretive effects of spells as well as the numerical pool of available spells expands the realistic potential capacity of a spellcaster in an exponential fashion, while the physical classes experience a mechanically-strictured and linear advancement. In addition to the problematic curve, the two systems are nearly impossible to balance against each other, and in fact seem to have been poorly balanced against each other even in light of that fact.
3. The designers knew that the spellcasters would get wildly more powerful than the physical classes, so they attempted to 'compensate' for the exponential power growth by having them start much weaker than the physical classes. This is terrible class balance design, through and through. It's as if they said "We know our classes end up overpowered, so we want the tradeoff to be that they start underpowered." It's fighting frustrating imbalance by adding frustrating imbalance.
5. By the double-digit levels, the physical classes are effectively D.O.A. and provide minimal impact on a party's effective capacity. Sure, they get double the mage's plusses to numbers relevant to the generic weapon attack (ooh, aah,) but by this time the wizard can be a) invisible, b) flying, c) have damage reduction 15, d) be casting fireballs at 600 yards, etc.
5. Even with this crude 'spellcasters start weak' compensation, there were certain spellcasters whose power progression was effectively not subject to the "delayed gratification" model, as though they were just missed! — they were just as good as physical classes in the beginning, and then rocketed up exponentially past that point like the 'pure' spellcasters. Chief in this category are the Clerics and Druids, who with few splatbook exceptions (various combinations of Sorceror-exclusive prestige classes, etc) start strong and end up demonstrably the most mechanically effective character. The Cleric in particular has the best 'progression curve,' being at all points significantly mechanically superior to all non-casting classes, with the pure spellcasters finally catching up to them.
6. All in all, terrible game design from a mechanical standpoint. Not a game-busting issue, but certainly mockable, and actually deleterious to the quality of gameplay when picking your class is less an expression of individual preference so much as it is a quiz with 'right' and 'wrong' answers. 4e is a demonstration of them learning their lesson: it was designed from the ground up to try to keep all classes roughly equivalent in usefulness and power within their class role when compared to all other classes. No classes that 'start weak but grow imba later as compensation.' It's one of the reasons why 3e has faded away so quickly after the release of 4e.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
True, but I don't think it's fair to criticize 3rd edition without recognizing the baggage they were dealing with. The Vancian magic system has existed since the beginning of D&D (and by extension, roleplaying in general) and while other games may have come up with solutions in the meantime, each edition of D&D can only change so much without alienating the player base. The notion finding mechanics that somehow balance epic level spellcasting against any kind of non-supernatural power is, well, HARD. I don't blame for taking 30 years to figure it out and implement it. I know when I design game mechanics I benefit enormously from the huge variety of work that has come before me.
I don't actually know how 4th edition handles it - regardless of how good the system is I have a hard time following the new layout of the books and I usually give up after looking through a few random abilities. What DID they give to warriors that lets them compete with an epic mage? Or did they just get rid of some of the more ridiculous things an epic mage can do?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:True, but I don't think it's fair to criticize 3rd edition without recognizing the baggage they were dealing with. The Vancian magic system has existed since the beginning of D&D (and by extension, roleplaying in general) and while other games may have come up with solutions in the meantime, each edition of D&D can only change so much without alienating the player base.
Not so true, apparently. 4e discarded the old system entirely and is a massive success for it!
quote:I don't actually know how 4th edition handles it - regardless of how good the system is I have a hard time following the new layout of the books and I usually give up after looking through a few random abilities. What DID they give to warriors that lets them compete with an epic mage? Or did they just get rid of some of the more ridiculous things an epic mage can do?
They ended the schism between caster progression and BAB progression by essentially homogenizing the mechanism of power progression between classes. It makes the most sense to think of each class as a suite of cards you can pick from. Everyone has two or three cards they can use infinitely, at certain levels everyone gets a more powerful type of card they can use once per encounter, and at certain levels they get an even more powerful type of card they can use once per day. Warriors advance primarily through the acquisition of cards, casters advance the same way. There are also feats and prestige classes, but everyone utilizes them in the exact same manner (everyone gets the same number of feats, everyone gets a paragon class at the same level, everyone gets an epic class at the same level).
This mechanism allows them to avoid a problem of abnormal progression scales. Each class can be balanced at every level against any other class at that level. There's few hiccups with the mechanism and it has more or less ended the ridiculous class imbalance of third edition.
More important than bringing wizards, clerics, druids and the like back down to earth, the new system also changes gameplay so that being a warrior-type class is no longer so phenomenally boring. You don't just walk up to the target and repeat your generic attack over and over. You utilize your combat skills with variety and manage their use strategically and conservatively, and play to different roles (for instance, a warrior's role is as a 'defender' while the wizard's role is 'controller') as opposed to having any one class be able to grow in power to fill ALL roles.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Aaaaa, 4e's success is because of marketing as "Dungeons and Dragons but dumbed down so anyone can play it!" its bland, samey no variation there is no point to it for 3.5 players and only benefit to its existance is to get potential players interested in DnD as a whole who will hopefully migrate to 3.5
4th edition is an abomination who horribly chained wizards down to a class of nothing of note to distinguish the class from any other class.
There is a LARGE amount of criticism leveled against 4th edition that you apparently decided to selectively ignore.
Next your going to say Ars Magica was a terrible system for right out stating that they discard the very notion of balance and designed the system from the get go to focus on spellcasters.
Wizards have magic and fighters have big clumsy swords, there is no logical reason why ever in the higher levels a fighter should be more powerful or verstile or only equally so on par with a wizard, a fighters job is to hit things, a wizards job is to kick ass.
We are dealing with people who can on one side, tell the laws of reality to shut up and sit down, and on the other hand people who spend all day waving a stick around.
WHY should it be balanced? By level 20's your fighting the very Gods themselves and Archdemons that a fighter alone without magical support is preposterous.
Dungeons and Dragons is ultimately about PvE and wizards are balanced sufficiently enough by having only a limited number of spells each day, 4th editional underpowers wizards to ineffective irrelevence.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I understand the basic mechanics behind 4th edition. What I don't understand is what kind of per Day or per Encounter Powers a fighter could get at level 20 that can (or should) be comparable to what a wizard can get. (I have a suspicion that it has something to do with the truly godlike stuff wizards could do getting put under the category of "Rituals" which from what I gather are individually balanced and generally more difficult to accomplish than "once per day.")
In my system (which is point based), while non-mages can get a wide variety of abilities to be interesting at any level, what ultimately balances them against mages is having a lot more points left over at high levels to spend on material goods (which will either need to be magical or high-technology to compete with a mage's arsenal).
My biggest complaint about 4th edition is that the homogenization of power-mechanics makes everyone feel the same. I understand that it does wonders for making game balance achievable, but it is not without massive losses in the flavor department.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Is 4E really a huge hit, compared to 3E? It might well be more profitable for WotC, but 3E managed to keep a whole cottage industry afloat for a few years -- which is, as far as I can tell, not something that 4E is doing.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
I am so in love with this game. I am having severe altitis with it lol. My two most played characters are a Human Blood Mage and a City Elf Rogue. I have also created a gay human noble who's new boyfriend spoiler
died in the origin story. I was kind of sad that there was no way to save
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: well, come on...
One can harness the powers of the elements, call upon the strength of demons, turn enemies against each other with visions of terror and confusion.
The other can shoot some arrows, occasionally causing those arrows to explode and rain splinters down into nearby enemies...
Did you expect anything different?
class balance
Complaining about class balance is almost a silly concept in MMO's it's absolutely ridiculous in a single player game
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
*spoilers*
Has anyone gotten past the duel with Loghain in the landsmeet yet? I keep getting destroyed regardless of which character I choose or what tactics I try. I tried going with the battle option instead of a duel, but then I just wound up being forced into a one on one fight anyways.
Is there something I'm missing here? This seems like a nastily difficult fight, but I didn't see much mention of it online when I searched.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: Complaining about class balance is almost a silly concept in MMO's it's absolutely ridiculous in a single player game
Not at all. The reason I know such a ridiculous amount of the subject matter pertaining to the mechanics of these games is because of my involvement in the design theory of these products, and the simple fact of the matter is that choice balance is one of the most vital and elusive quality control issues facing both MMO's and single player games. Lack of class balance utterly kills games. It undercuts the intent of designers to have class choice represent personal aesthetic and taste. It's the same with single player games as it is with MMO's, except where it makes the stakes higher for the medium-term viability of online games.
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I understand the basic mechanics behind 4th edition. What I don't understand is what kind of per Day or per Encounter Powers a fighter could get at level 20 that can (or should) be comparable to what a wizard can get.
The progression theory in D&D is that the characters play heroically imbued characters. They are all more than your average mortal. They are able to progress in strength using, essentially, a supernatural mechanism. By Epic tier, any character of any class has almost assuredly acquired a form of immortality (there may be some Epic Destinies that vary from this, I don't recall) and you are already essentially apotheosizing into a supernatural being already on par with a demigod. The books make sure to mention that a Fighter who counts for the hero class is as rare as a Wizard who counts for the hero class. Through different mechanisms, they have departed from the standard limitations of a mundane being.
Now, when you ask me what powers a fighter would have at 20th level, I assume you're asking me what powers they would have at max level (D&D 4e has 30 levels). A top-level example baseline power for Fighter itself (not part of your Paragon Path, which you integrate into your class after level 10, or your Epic Destiny, which you integrate into your class after level 20) is Force the Battle, a 29th level Daily technique defined here:
quote:You deal an extra 1[W] damage with your at-will and encounter fighter powers. If an enemy starts its turn adjacent to you, you can use an at-will fighter power against it as a free action at the start of its turn, as long as you are able to make opportunity attacks.
Pretty brutal power, and it's extraordinarily helpful for a Defender (since hits on targets allow you to mark them and impose penalties on their actions if they don't subsequently focus you as a target).
The comparable Wizard spell is an ice storm which Immobilizes on hit, slows and does half damage on miss, and creates an area of difficult terrain for the remainder of the encounter. It compares against the Fighter power perfectly, as an area-of-effect controller effect designed to impose status effects and command the battlefield.
quote:My biggest complaint about 4th edition is that the homogenization of power-mechanics makes everyone feel the same.
In actuality, the classes in fourth edition really do have a remarkable amount of differentiation. The homogenization is merely in the means by which power progression occurs. In every other way, it's actually increased the differentiation of gameplay for D&D classes overall and spiced up gameplay significantly (compare to 3.x: "repeat basic attack four times, end turn.").
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Dungeons and Dragons is ultimately about PvE and wizards are balanced sufficiently enough by having only a limited number of spells each day, 4th editional underpowers wizards to ineffective irrelevence.
I'm confused. You spent most of your post telling me that wizards should not be balanced with the other classes, then you offer the idea that they are balanced as a defense. Which they aren't; they render other non-caster classes irrelevant and useless after 9 levels or so. I don't understand why you're mad that they've "underpowers wizards to ineffective irrelevence (sp)" but you're totally okay with 3rd edition underpowering non-wizards to ineffective irrelevance. I feel that you've fairly straightforwardly undermined your own position with this double standard.
In addition, if you think that a 4e wizard is relegated to 'ineffective irrelevance,' you obviously have no clue what they are capable of. Alongside invokers, they make the game's most terrifying controllers. They start out at first level already wielding some of the game's most absurd area-of-effect conditional modifier spells. Orb controller wizards in particular tend to have inescapable effects that leave other classes crying foul.
Sorry that 4e apparently stepped on your dog or something, but if you really want to champion 3.5 over it, you best not do so from a position of ignorance.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Is 4E really a huge hit, compared to 3E? It might well be more profitable for WotC, but 3E managed to keep a whole cottage industry afloat for a few years -- which is, as far as I can tell, not something that 4E is doing.
I can't say I know what you're talking about. Is there any point in the past two years during which the prominence of tabletop roleplay games hasn't increased?
As for the total consumption of 4e (the sales are good on their own, but total consumption is much higher; PDF torrenting is rampant), it's advanced the popularity of RPGA events to a startling level; it's also kept D&D vitalized in a market that's increasingly filled with competitive offerings.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Is there any point in the past two years during which the prominence of tabletop roleplay games hasn't increased?
Question: when did you start playing tabletop games? I know very few pen-and-paper gamers who would say that the cultural prominence of tabletop gaming has increased over the last five years. Heck, I'm pretty sure RPGA membership is down from the '90s, too, although I suppose it is "startling" that it's still around. (The continued existence of the Camarilla fan club still amazes me, too.)
quote:it's also kept D&D vitalized in a market that's increasingly filled with competitive offerings
You mean the dessicated shell of the tabletop RPG market?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm trying to look specifically at the timeframe after 4e's release. I only know that wotc claims robust sales, but specifics are hard to nail down.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, yeah, the release of any new edition is going to awaken new interest in a game system; that's what we're seeing here, I suspect. But the original release of Third Edition not only got people playing D&D again, but inspired people to start companies to produce ancillary and supplementary materials. That wasn't an unambiguous good, mind you, but certainly it had a far larger effect on the industry. 3E was in a lot of ways fairly transformative -- not least because of the SRD. In comparison, 4E feels largely reactive, like it's an attempt to anticipate the complaints and expectations of MMO players.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
What 4e was reactive to, according to the primary designers of the game, who've been interviewed about what they felt necessary for the next ieteration, was that the old vancian sword & sorcery thing was pretty much cashed out. The industry had evolved beyond being tolerant of systems like that. It's the same sort of pinch that the Elder Scrolls series began feeling; they can't get away with the same mechanics that worked for them before, since the expectations on the genre have evolved.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yes, I know. I know a lot of people at WotC (and people who were with WotC at one point or another, which is a much larger pool). I'm practically a Mearls fanboy. I argued in favor of many of the changes brought to the game in the latest edition, actually, when they first manifested in Iron Heroes and the Book of Nine Swords. *laugh* Although I'm still galled by the elimination of facing and the addition of weapon sizes in 3.5.
The fact remains, however, that 4E D&D is a "Hail Mary" pass aimed at MMO players who have become annoyed by fetch quests. It's received considerably less press and has so far sold considerably fewer copies than Third Edition. If it does in fact manage to capture a new, younger audience, it'll have acheived its goals. But it's a bit early to say that it's done that. It certainly hasn't changed the market the way 3E did, and without the OGL probably won't.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Well, given the whole "expectations on the genre have evolved" thing, they couldn't just go with the update-that-sticks-with-the-old-flaws unless they wanted to simply peter out slowly.
As far as attempts to keep relevant go, this is a pretty admirable way to do so, especially when most long-time players will admit that it is a mechanical improvement.
At any rate, we'll see how things are going about the time 4e has been out for six years.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I am saying that Wizards do not need to be balanced in regards to pvp situations between different classes that "might" arise from bad players and that they only need to be balanced insofar that magic is considered a vancian system which by being a system has its own set of checks and balances that should not be concerned with the complaints of players who feel their mundane class underpowered in comparison.
I have read and experianced enough of 3.5 to like it as it is and any changes to occur should only be from the additional of additional source books and house rules and read enough of 4th edition to know I do not like it for its raping of wizards to appeal to the beer drinking frat boy demographic.
To elaborate on my knee jerk position is that the only balance required is the balance to make the game enjoyable and long lasting, wizards are powerful at the end as a reward to symbolize their quest for ultimate arcane power it is consistent with the background lore, magic shouldn't be a linear progression, quadratic makes perfect sense in this regard. Obviously a wizard shouldn't be able to single handedly win every CR equal encounter in a given day without tiring the system is thus inherently self balancing without needing to remove spells or nerf the power potential and versatility of wizards via the singular notion that Magic is not a toy! and that spells should have material components, the most powerful spells take time to cast and a wizard can only cast a certain number of spells per day before tiring and that short of being a VERY clever player (Divination!) cannot be capable of handling any and every problem a DM might throw at you.
As such to be specific a Wizard class is ALREADY balanced in such a way that by starting weak and ending strong requiring cautious and intelligent play to stay alive until the end, a situation compounded by Tom's low magic settings makes the situation even more clear. Magic as used by wizards is MEANT to be an alpha class but should be extraordinarily difficult to master in play but not unplayably so.
All of this from the assumption that D&D is a PVE game and that considerations of class balance between the classes in a competitive sense should ever never or only minimally effect decisions on the matter, ie a wizard is more interesting to play then a fighter most of the time from a powergaming approch, so lets add the Book of 9 Swords to make them more interesting etc.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Aha Order of the Stick forums to the rescue! Auxillery opinions here:
quote: I have read and experianced enough of 3.5 to like it as it is and any changes to occur should only be from the additional of additional source books and house rules and read enough of 4th edition to know I do not like it for its raping of wizards to appeal to the beer drinking frat boy demographic.
Dude, there are so many silly things in this paragraph I'll just boil it down: you liked 3.5 because it catered to many of your push-button issues, so to speak, with D&D. Spellcasters in general and wizards/sorcerers in particular are much more powerful than other classes, except for at low levels. They're either substantially more powerful, after the first few levels, or out-of-the-park more powerful, once you get into the teens.
4e, apparently, changes that to the extent that spellcasters aren't drastically more powerful at nearly every stage of the game. You enjoy playing spellcasters, thus you don't like that as much. There's no need to be defensive about it, it's all a matter of tastes. There's also no need to speak as though there were some non-arbitrary reasoning for your dissatisfaction, either:)
-----
One thing I don't get about Morrigan: the mission is, apparently, to use diplomacy and favor-currying to spur many separate groups to unite under a Grey Warden banner and fight against the Blight. Given that hearts-and-minds aspect, why is she so consistently against helping people out as though it were contrary to 'the mission's' interests?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Well, somehow in the transition to Windows 7 my character got lost. Which is particularly bizarre since I specifically installed Steam on an external hard drive for just such a reason.
I started over as a Mage. So far the plot seems a lot more generic than the dwarf commoner. People were oohing and aahing about the Harrowing so I assume something cool happens later (unless they were seriously impressed with the "twist" in the intro section), but for I've kinda lost my momentum.
Which is probably a good thing, cause I have work to do and sleep to get.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:4e, apparently, changes that to the extent that spellcasters aren't drastically more powerful at nearly every stage of the game. You enjoy playing spellcasters, thus you don't like that as much.
Well, I can actually come up with a number of arguments for why someone who enjoyed playing spellcasters in earlier versions of D&D, all questions of relative power aside, might still find 4E off-putting. The play style is very different now, both in and out of combat.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I have read and experianced enough of 3.5 to like it as it is and any changes to occur should only be from the additional of additional source books and house rules and read enough of 4th edition to know I do not like it for its raping of wizards to appeal to the beer drinking frat boy demographic.
The silliness of that quote aside (wizard: altered to appeal to the frat boy demographic. Special "Wizards: They Dope!" marketing campaign soon to be released in conjunction with Coors Lite), they 'raped' wizards to put them in line with the other classes. You exhibit a blatant double standard where you demand that wizards be an imbalanced class, and this drives your somewhat obsessive complaints.
quote:To elaborate on my knee jerk position is that the only balance required is the balance to make the game enjoyable and long lasting, wizards are powerful at the end as a reward to symbolize their quest for ultimate arcane power it is consistent with the background lore, magic shouldn't be a linear progression, quadratic makes perfect sense in this regard. Obviously a wizard shouldn't be able to single handedly win every CR equal encounter in a given day without tiring the system is thus inherently self balancing
Already handled this. Your 'self balancing' comment is absolutely false, for the reasons already mentioned as well as the fact that physical classes 'tire' effectively as fast due to the hit point mechanic, and their greater susceptibility to save v. death mechanics, which they lack special defenses towards (being struck completely dead is indeed a form of tiring in 3.5).
quote:All of this from the assumption that D&D is a PVE game and that considerations of class balance between the classes in a competitive sense should ever never or only minimally effect decisions on the matter
The notion that class balance considerations should only impact game design decisions in the event of multiplayer is one that is pretty much cut-and-dried absolutely false. Not even Skip Williams and Monte Cook would agree with that; they agree that the class imbalance was regretful even in thy cherished 3.x.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Are people playing this on PC or on console? Are there a lot of differences between them?
I ask because I have a laptop, an old PC, and am considering very seriously buying a PS3 for Christmas.
Any suggestions, as this game seems tailored for me. Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm playing it on a MacBook Pro. I don't own a console and haven't the slightest idea how the two would compare, but PC is working fine for me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Get the PC version. The console versions do not allow you to zoom out or pause, which is a handicap in a tactical RPG.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Holy cow, you can't pause in the console version? Man, I'd be screwed!
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Gamespot has a video review in which they state the console versions are inferior to the PC version, though off the top of head I can't remember why. (I think for the same reasons that Tom mentioned.)
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Um, I can pause on the Xbox. Presumably Tom is talking about the console version having an inferior in-battle pause experience, which is a bit different than not having a pause at all. Though this hasn't really been a problem for me. I have so far not really needed to pause in battle all that often. I usually do fine controlling my character and the other party members do pretty well on their own.
As far as a recommendation, I'd also say that all things being equal I'd get the PC version. For me all is not equal as my consoles are hooked up to a large screen TV with surround sound and I don't have a game-spec'd PC so I went with the console version.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
So, has anyone discovered any Spell Combos or Secret Achievements yet?
<minor spoilers>
I've only found one Spell Combo so far: Improved Drain = Vulnerability Hex + Drain Life.
</minor spoilers>
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:So, has anyone discovered any Spell Combos or Secret Achievements yet?
I've found the same single Spell Combo as you. I'm not sure about secret achievements as they aren't marked secret once you get them and I haven't made a point of memorizing the non-secret achievements ahead of time.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: So, has anyone discovered any Spell Combos or Secret Achievements yet?
<minor spoilers>
I've only found one Spell Combo so far: Improved Drain = Vulnerability Hex + Drain Life.
</minor spoilers>
I've found a couple.
**spoiler**
If you hit an enemy that is frozen or petrified with spells that do physical damage (stonefist and crushing prison, at least) there is a chance that they will outright shatter regardless of health. Strong enough melee criticals can also do it.
Also, when you place a glyph of repulsion overlapping a glyph of paralysis, it causes a large AOE paralysis effect.
***endspoiler***
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm holding off playing the game anymore until it's been ironed out a bit. It's okay, though, it's absolutely a great game, I just want a GOTY edition and easy access to all the DLC.
My current estimation is that if they do actually tone down the mages (and they should) a large part of that will involve nerfing Cone of Cold.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
*makes a note to try Cone of Cold*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I just want a GOTY edition and easy access to all the DLC.
If you're using a real computer, the Digital Deluxe Edition (which is the version I bought) has all of the above.
Cone of Cold + Stone Fist (i.e. Morrigan + Wynne) = Victory
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: So, has anyone discovered any Spell Combos or Secret Achievements yet?
<minor spoilers>
I've only found one Spell Combo so far: Improved Drain = Vulnerability Hex + Drain Life.
</minor spoilers>
Glyph of Repulsion and glyph of paralysis create a paralyzingly explosion. Inferno plus Blizzard plus that lightning storm spell create storm of the century. Sleep plus horror creates nightmare
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I just want a GOTY edition and easy access to all the DLC.
If you're using a real computer, the Digital Deluxe Edition (which is the version I bought) has all of the above.
Cone of Cold + Stone Fist (i.e. Morrigan + Wynne) = Victory
You can't have a GOTY style edition when the game's first been released. It doesn't exist yet.
Also, by that time, it will be easy to pirate the initial DLC.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, yes. I was providing an option to, y'know, not be a criminal.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Listen: The reason why I want a celebratory re-release type of version (that's what a GOTY edition is) is because all the bugs will be hammered out by then and they will have included a lot of the initial DLC in it since the market will have been saturated with that stuff anyway.
A Digital Deluxe Edition isn't that. It's just a premium release, still a release edition.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ah! Cheaper and post-bug! I understand. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Damn you all.........I am buying it this weekend now. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILER
You know, I completely forgot what it might mean that Flemeth is a master shapeshifter, and how that little factoid might affect my character and the party...
SPOILER
[ November 12, 2009, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*grin*
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Rakeesh, that sounds like the sort of thing you might want in major spoiler brackets. Now I'm gonna spend the rest of the game looking for what is probably supposed to be a surprise.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Err, sorry Raymond. I specifically phrased it so that I thought it wouldn't be a spoiler. I thought I was pretty vague, except to hint that Flemeth will play a role in the game beyond the initial stages, which I guess to me was a given.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I had a similar reaction to Raymond's. Bringing to the forefront a plot point, even if we've all seen it, is definitely spoilerish. I'm also going to obsess a bit about this now, possibly not getting to enjoy the "gee whiz" experience that prompted you to comment on it in the first place.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sorry about that, folks. It was a 'sheesh, that was a silly oversight of mine' sort of thing in my head. It never really occurred to me that it'd be spoilerish. I was anticipating reactions like Tom's actually.
Can't un-say it, but stilly, sorry.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
It's OK. I added my comment mostly to make sure Raymond didn't feel like he was being an oversensitive idiot (or at least not the *only* oversensitive idiot), not to pile on.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: SPOILER-ish question
Has anyone been able to survive the undead attack on Redcliffe with Mayor Murdock alive? I've tried multiple times without success.
SPOILER-ish question
I'm at this point now, and having difficulty. For those who have completed this successfully, can I ask what level you were and what your lineup was?
I'm currently a level 7 elf mage. (I had only just now seen Tom's suggestion to go to the Circle first - Redcliffe was my first stop.)
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Are you having difficulty with the battle itself or just with keeping the mayor alive? I'm not sure if that latter is possible based on my experience.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
The battle itself. I have no problem with the part up by the windmill, but down in front of the Chantry, it's not long before the NPCs get overwhelmed, then I get overwhelmed.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Huh. I didn't have too much trouble with it with a level 7/8-ish party that includes two mages (myself, Morrigan), Alistair, and the rogue Leliana.
There are a couple side quests in the town that I think beef up the resistance from the locals but I don't know how much difference those might make. You can read about them in this IGN preview of the game (minor spoilers): http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/102/1026605p1.html Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I managed barely to keep the Mayor alive with a party of myself (rogue), Morrigan, Sten, and Alistair. It took repeated attempts.
I managed almost without difficulty at all to keep everyone except for two or three militiamen alive with the same party except for replacing Morrigan with Wynne. Had to keep a careful eye on the characters not in the party and target heals to them, but other than that there wasn't any problem.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: Huh. I didn't have too much trouble with it with a level 7/8-ish party that includes two mages (myself, Morrigan), Alistair, and the rogue Leliana.
There are a couple side quests in the town that I think beef up the resistance from the locals but I don't know how much difference those might make. You can read about them in this IGN preview of the game (minor spoilers): http://au.pc.ign.com/articles/102/1026605p1.html
I have done all the side quests, and my lineup is almost the same as yours, except that I have Sten in for Alistair. Also, I'm playing on Hard difficulty. (Up until now, I had been thinking that it was still too easy.) Though I'm embarrassed to admit that until Rakeesh said it, it never occurred to me to throw heals to the NPCs.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, you probably shouldn't do it unless you've got Wynne who has two other healing spells at her disposal for when the cooldown is ticking and (if I'm not mistaken) as a Spirit Healer gets a bonus to healing spells anyway.
I tried healing the non-party NPCs with Morrigan, but it didn't work.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Dang it! I'm trying to avoid the reason that Occam insists upon: I suck. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I bought it today, and am installing it now.
You are all evil.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'll note that there are a few sections that I found a little boring where I wasn't quite sure what I was supposed to do. Given the sitaution you have described, I'd take advantage of those moments to go do homework or whatever (instead of pushing through them like I did).
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Found a little (so far minor) bug:
In the Redcliffe main quest, I took the goody-two-boots route, saving Connor and his mother by going to the Circle for help and driving the demon out directly from the Fade. Both son and mother survived.
My quest log says that, however in the Codex under Connor's entry and his mother's, it's said she sacrificed herself to save her son. Balls to that! I went to a lot of trouble, or rather, made Wynne go to a lot of trouble;)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, I can handle the revenants I've encountered as part of quests alright. Tough fights, especially if they've got friends, but do-able. But the ones that you find by stumbling across their phylacteries? I've encountered two of them so far, and been totally without success in beating them. I think if maybe I were willing to spend several gold in potions before the fight (because it would literally take that long, Wynne would run out of mana multiple times, and poultices would be needed during cooldown recharges occasionally, I could do it.
I think I'll just come back to them later. Hopefully the one I came across as a random encounter in a city will be able to be stumbled over again.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
Does anyone else have a really hard time switching out party members after playing for a while. I get a few people I like early on in the game, get them leveled and outfitted how I like them, and then I just can't bring myself to swap them out for someone else. I keep sending prospective party members to camp to rot. I seem to have this problem with every party-based RPG that I play.
Yes, it is dumb when a game does that. I recently beat Magical Starsign (Nintendo DS), and though it's easy one good thing about it is that your party can contain at one time all the characters who join you over the whole game. (You start with two and work up to six.) So no character stays too far below the others.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Does anyone else have a really hard time switching out party members after playing for a while. I get a few people I like early on in the game, get them leveled and outfitted how I like them, and then I just can't bring myself to swap them out for someone else.
Yeah, what's especially tough for me is not bringing along the attractive females my character is crushing on.
I never went anywhere without Bastilla, Handmaiden, Aerie, Liara, etc.
There is a 100% chance I am going to buy DA:O, it's just a matter of when. Might be this weekend (tonight) or I may wait a bit. Looking forward to joining the fun.
[ November 13, 2009, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Anyone know if it's viable to make a melee-mage character, focusing on the various self-buff spells?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There's actually a specialization designed to specifically support that build.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
I made a blood mage and actually felt really bad while I did it. I am impressed when a game makes me worry about the morality of the choices I am making in it
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
So I got the game today. So far I've played through the Human Noble opening to the point where I've just met the king.
I also have played the Magi opening a bit. I'm assuming that this character will eventually go to the same place that my warrior is, but that's just a guess.
I love playing these incredibly different openings so much that I may need to see the two elf and two dwarf ones before I am satisfied enough to actually play the rest of the game.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yeah, the different beginnings part is - for me, at least - a really cool not-seen-before thing. Plenty of RPG games have the same openings that can become different or even radically different depending on how you play, but I can't think of one I've played where they're all completely different.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Well, MMOs tend to have race specific openings, their storylines just aren't as interesting.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Anyone know if it's viable to make a melee-mage character, focusing on the various self-buff spells?
Plot info: go to the dalish camp forest, follow through to the ruins. Inside, you'll find a sort of a gem phylactery (not a cold 'unease' producing one, which will produce a revenant if poked) that, if interacted with, can lead you to the secret of the elven Arcane Warriors.
Talent no. 1 gives you the unbelievable benefit of being able to use your magic stat in the place of strength for the purposes of determining whether or not you can wear armor or wield weapons, and you use your spellpower stat to determine damage. Whoopee.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
That's...actually not bad from the description you've given, Samprimary.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Gah, I tried starting a new character having lost my original dwarf-chick, but couldn't stand going through the conversations without her. I'd like to make each characters' conversation choices different, but I can't bring myself to do the "mean" choices until I've gone through once with a relatively nice character. (Gretchen the dwarf had some biting sarcasm but she meant well).
I found myself slightly miffed that Alister openly flirted with the human woman I made later and not with Gretchen. What, dwarf girls aren't cute enough for you? Bah.
I ended up remaking my original character. I kept making schizophrenic conversation choices with the human mage, alternating between trying new conversation paths and then feeling guilty about my decisions afterwards. Even though the game probably doesn't care that much, I couldn't really get into the character.
I also felt like Duncan's decision to recruit me as a mage felt a lot more random than the dwarf commoner. I talked to him for 5 minutes and suddenly he has a "high opinion of me?" Dwarf commoner felt a lot more like I had to earn his respect.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I also felt like Duncan's decision to recruit me as a mage felt a lot more random than the dwarf commoner. I talked to him for 5 minutes and suddenly he has a "high opinion of me?" Dwarf commoner felt a lot more like I had to earn his respect.
For what it's worth, the mage was supposedly the "star pupil" of the first enchanter. While you might not have been aware of him before, it's plausible that he had been aware of the character for some time.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Okay, I guess. I understand the "game balance" technique of stating that "level 1" is still extraordinarily above an ordinary person, even an ordinary fighter, because players are just plain several standard deviations above the norm of "hero." But I find it hard to internalize it no matter how many NPCs say how awesome I am, until I've actually had to do something hard.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
In other news: I'm feeling weird about poison use as a rogue. Without using it, I suspect I'm missing out a lot on what makes my character actually good, but I feel like I'm wasting poison if I use it for random trash mobs. But if I don't use it, then my rogue just sits around feeling outclassed by the mages in most fights.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Starting around mid game, at least, I've found rogues to do pretty good sustained single target damage. They aren't quite as powerful overall as a caster, but in an anti caster role, they're pretty solid.
Also, attacks from stealth seem to shatter normal frozen targets roughly 1/3 of the time. So once you get up to level 3 of stealth (for in combat stealths) it's pretty deadly in combination with cone of cold. Especially since it doesn't require stamina/mana to pull off, unlike overpower/stonefist, which are my preffered fighter/mage shatterers.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't have cone of cold at all in my normal party-just didn't work out that way, and now I like my guys too much to switch:) I'm looking forward to a replay making actual use of spell combos. I'm sure there's lots of efficiency I'm missing out on.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Against mid sized groups of white labelled opponents, shattering can be devastatingly effective. I don't know of an AOE shatter, but since my other three characters have at least one shattering move, I can take out 3 for each cone of cold.
Keep playing around with mixing effects, though. I've only found a small number of combinations, but most of the ones I've found have been pretty effective in the right situation.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I feel like I'm wasting poison if I use it for random trash mobs.
You're not. Poison is very common and very cheap. You will have no difficulty finding ingredients for poison.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I wonder Tom, have you advanced to the higher levels of poison-making? I've not gotten mine past the initial stage, because I've wanted to have the awareness skill, persuasion, and weapons training. There just hasn't been any room left over.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* I don't actually use Zevran for anything, so I just pumped his poison skill up and let him make poisons in camp. Everyone else can benefit from one point in it.
I'm noticing over multiple playthroughs that all the skills really are useful, except for Pickpocket. Pickpocket is pretty much worthless, which means poor Leiliana starts out with one hand tied behind her back.
There's a mod out there which allows you to respec any one NPC. Leiliana benefits hugely from this; you can pump down her strength, get rid of her pickpocket skill and melee rogue talents, and make her into one heck of an archer.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SLIGHT SPOILER
Does anyone know if it's actually worthwhile to give money and runes to your allied supply guys in camp? I've been doing it because it's the sort of effective and goody-two-boots thing my character would do, but I am wondering. Because I've potentially flushed a lot of money down that crapper, if it is indeed a toilet. Counting runes I figure at least 50gp.
SLIGHT SPOILER Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's not worth 50gp. Basically, on the PC version, you get XP if you donate items to the chest. This is supposed to happen on the console, too, but a bug prevents this behavior (meaning that donating has no game effect on the console.)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
All it is is XP? Blegh. I thought from the conversation it would be distributed to my troops, to better equip and train them and whatnot, for the presumptive final battle.
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: *nod* I don't actually use Zevran for anything, so I just pumped his poison skill up and let him make poisons in camp. Everyone else can benefit from one point in it.
I'm noticing over multiple playthroughs that all the skills really are useful, except for Pickpocket. Pickpocket is pretty much worthless, which means poor Leiliana starts out with one hand tied behind her back.
There's a mod out there which allows you to respec any one NPC. Leiliana benefits hugely from this; you can pump down her strength, get rid of her pickpocket skill and melee rogue talents, and make her into one heck of an archer.
Pick Pocket occasionally gets a really nice item but in general it's just junk. It can also get you into a lot of trouble with the law.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SLIGHT SPOILER
I think not having the Pickpocket skill up high amongst my party may have cost me a thieving job with the guy in Denerim who gives 'Robin Hood-esque' thieving activities, Slim Coudry or somesuch, because he asked about it when I spoke to him.
SLIGHT SPOILER Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* Yeah, there's a quest line through him. Either you need a high Deft Hands or a high Stealing to work for him.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILER
The quest line working through lockpicking and stealth was extremely lucrative, so much so that I wished I'd gone to Denerim first, because apparently it's a no-strings attached sort of thing. Go there, visit him, get quest, laugh all the way to the bank.
Also, I've been looking on the boards and so far the group consensus appears to be that giving stuff to the Allied Supply Crates in camp yields (sometimes, there's some dispute over this) experience, but no actual benefits other than that. *sigh* All that gold down the crapper. With that I could've, for example, filled out my trap/poison/herbalism recipe.
SPOILER Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
Is anyone else having a hard time finding specialization trainers? My elf mage is now lvl 9 and I still haven't found a trainer for my first specialization.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I'm a bit confused; is this still a Wheel of Time game being discussed? Because I see references to dwarf commoners, and WoT doesn't have any dwarves.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
No, to me this game doesn't seem any more inspired by WoT than by several other fantasy series.
The human / elf / dwarf triumvirate is clearly LotR based.
I've noticed several ASoIaF references and inspiration (characters named Duncan, Jory, Allistar; your dog is much like a dire wolf; Loghain is very similar in feel to Bloodraven; the Grey Wardens and Night's Watch are similar, etc).
The human noble background felt very much like Paul and Jessica's escape in Dune.
The only thing, to me, that struck me as being likely inspired by WoT so far has been the mage tower. I haven't read the books in a while though, so I'm sure true fans of them see more.
Really I think it was created by fans of the genre, and has a lot of different influences.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sean,
SPOILER
You can learn specializations in two ways that I've found so far. One, you can purchase books on the subject that unlock them. They're expensive, 15gp range. The other way that I've found involves getting a companion's approval rating high enough. I think it may also involve doing their side quest. Morrigan, for example, loves me to pieces, but won't teach others to shapeshift.
SPOILER Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You can get Morrigan to teach other people to shapeshift even without finishing her quest if you pick dialogue options early on that imply that you're not suspicious of non-Circle mages.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: That's...actually not bad from the description you've given, Samprimary.
No sarcasm. I was actually pretty ecstatic to be able to ditch the robes.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: No sarcasm. I was actually pretty ecstatic to be able to ditch the robes.
Hmmm, I've been having some anxiety over my class / background choices. An Arcane Warrior sounds pretty awesome to me (see my swordmage over at Sakeriver).
So far Morrigan is my favorite party member, but I feel like there's too much overlap between my player character and her as far as abilities go. They even look fairly similar. Maybe I'll start over as a melee centric mage to get a bit less redundancy.
Any advice for the build, if I were to do this?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Sean,
SPOILER
You can learn specializations in two ways that I've found so far. One, you can purchase books on the subject that unlock them. They're expensive, 15gp range. The other way that I've found involves getting a companion's approval rating high enough. I think it may also involve doing their side quest. Morrigan, for example, loves me to pieces, but won't teach others to shapeshift.
SPOILER
You can also do a bit of a cheat, if you save before you buy the book, then reload to that save after you bought it, you will still have that specialization without spending any money. It has to do with unlocking the specializations across all characters once you unlock it on one.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Don't worry about mage overlap. People beating the game on hard/impossible are doing it with three mages and a tank (and would probably take a fourth mage, if they could :/)
When you make a melee-centric mage, just be sure to max the trees to get to Crushing Prison and Arcane Warrior, then pick up the easy-to-reach passives that increase defense (Mage II, Earth I, etc) and just put them on at all times. Suddenly, you're the hardest-to-damage class in the game.
This allows you to use your (now limited) mana pool to open up fights with the blatant aggro-generators like chain lightning, fireball, and the OP Cone of Cold, get all the foes to want to attack you, then you cycle between everyone's cooldowns on Force Field. The enemies are dumber than rocks and will continue to attack a force fielded person as long as they have enough threat.
Generally you want to leave the debuffs to Morrigan and Wynne. Spirit Healer tree is the most mechanically useful and makes you extraordinarily difficult to kill; Blood Mage will give you some utility in using HP to cast as well as the amazing AOE party-friendly CC spell. Shapeshifter is the most worthless spec tree in the game. Do not take it.
If you're playing on regular and casual difficulty, you can do excellently with variety and not need any other mages in the party. Some excellent spells to snag are the wisp, the heal, and some of the crueler disables (misdirection hex, etc) and the party buff auras.
All Mages All The Time is tight, though, especially given that you can pawn cleansing and Haste off on Wynne.
Myself, I was blatantly abusing AOE threat generation. With weaker encounters, I can open up with Chain Lightning, Fireball, Cone of Cold (circumstantially fire blast and shock if the enemies are lined up perfectly enough), generate impossible levels of threat, and tank away. With the harder encounters you do this and then just force field yourself while the other party members mow down the mages and ranged units.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I have to admit that too many mages in the party eventually made it very difficult for me to control friendly fire.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I have to admit that too many mages in the party eventually made it very difficult for me to control friendly fire.
The game's hardest difficulty is essentially a contest to see if you can get good enough at managing overpowered mage effects to win.
By the time you've worked out all the mage combos like "Storm of the Century" and learned how to use force field in combination with aggro management, mages upgrade from 'kinda overpowered' to 'blatantly utterly overpowered'
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: *nod* Yeah, there's a quest line through him. Either you need a high Deft Hands or a high Stealing to work for him.
If you have high stealth he will also work with you
Posted by aeolusdallas (Member # 11455) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: Is anyone else having a hard time finding specialization trainers? My elf mage is now lvl 9 and I still haven't found a trainer for my first specialization.
What training are you looking for? Only 2 (Champion and Reaver) are difficult to get the others are all pretty easy. Duelist requires talking to a lady in the capitol and all the others are either books you can buy or talking to your party members. Edit If you are making a Blood mage then you want to dump a lot of points into Con. Because you will be drawing from your hit points to power spells. If you want to make a shape shifter then put points into str. You will need it to wear armor and wield good weapons. You shape shifted forms use those items to figure out your stats. Arcane Warrior has already been given a great rundown in this thread.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Shapeshifter is the most worthless spec tree in the game. Do not take it.
Yeah, took all four abilities with Morrigan, and it's pretty underpowered. I'll occasionally use bear form when I'm out of mana, but even then it's pretty weak.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Love the game so far, but I went to the forest after hitting the mage tower, so I am having a bit of trouble wiht the end of the Forest Catacombs. I can win most of the battles, but it took almost all of the healing pots I had, and I tried it with Morrigan rather than Wynne, so I think I am screwed.
I am a mage, and I have Allister, Lianna, and Morrigan with me. I killed the big monster and got his stash, so I have some gold now, but I am miles from any town. Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
So, when I play and beat an game, I like to feel like I earned my victory. I don't like setting a game to normal unless it is going to present a real challenge for me. I'm not saying I like to die repeatedly, but I like to be forced to use my brain and skill.
So, that being said, do you recommend normal or hard for playing this? I am not an expert gamer, but I have played both Neverwinter Nights and SWKotOR, as well as several other rpgs. SWKotOR could have been a little bit more of challenge for me on the normal setting, but it wasn't always easy.
I want to try playing Dragon Age on hard, but I don't want to have to become an expert on D&D rules to be able to beat it.
FYI, my current character, who is still in the Mage's tower, is an elf mage. I am leaning toward becoming an arcane warrior. Also, given all the talk about mages being too powerful in this game, I don't want the game to be too easy for me given that I am a mage.
As I'm typing this, I realize that I don't know if you can change difficulty levels without starting a new game. I won't be at home for a couple days to play the game again and check this, so can you change difficulty levels after starting a game? I am currently set to Normal.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I want to try playing Dragon Age on hard, but I don't want to have to become an expert on D&D rules to be able to beat it.
The game's mechanics don't use D&D rules at all, so .. you're safe on that front.
Anyway, if you play the game on hard, it'll be hard, unless you're the kind of person who could wander through Baldur's Gate in his sleep. And yes, you can change the difficulty setting in-game.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Yah, I just assumed it was based on D&D due to all the talk about it earlier in the thread, though I just glanced through all the talk about updated rules. I am not familiar with the more technical aspects of the rules.
So, what is the game based on, or did they just create a unique rule system?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It isn't DnD at all, btw.
It isn;t easy or hard on normal, but it all depends on what type of gamer you are, I guess. I like puzzles, and tactics seems like a puzzle to me, at least a little bit.
I am playing on normal, and it wasn't too hard until I went to the wrong area without pots. Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I played Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and KOTOR and KOTOR2. I'm playing DA:O on hard. Overall, I find most of the trash mobs of average difficulty. On the boss fights, I seem to be just squeaking by, by the seat of my pants.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I think Normal mode is hard enough that you will feel as if you have earned your victories. It's not hard to use the right strategy most of the time, but you WILL have to use strategy or you will fail, and a lot of times the harder fights took me one or two tries to figure out what the right strategy was.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I think I am going to change to hard, and if I find myself dying too often, I will just change it back.
So, on a subject related to difficulty, do any of you have a personal philosophy on how often to save in a game that allows you to save almost anytime? I like to save often, but sometimes I feel like I am cheating to get in the habit of saving everywhere. It almost seems to minimize the impact of dying, yet I still find myself saving a lot.
I think I have OCD when it comes to saving. Even when I am typing a Word document, I find myself automatically hitting ctrl+s after every phrase I type, or every time I pause to think. I think, over the years, Microsoft has trained me to never trust my computer to remain ON beyond the next 6 seconds.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
I at least quicksave after every fight. There are way too many games that I want to play (and things outside of gaming I want to do), to waste too much time redoing sections over and over.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm finding normal to be a bit of a challenge, with a rogue (PC), two warriors, and a mage.
However, in retrospect for quite awhile there were many things I wasn't doing very efficiently, and the longer I've played the easier it's gotten. Though some of that is normal in games of course:) Getting Wynne the Spirit Healer cranked up in Cleansing Aura makes even the biggest trash-mob fight no problem at all, because with two warriors aggro-grabbing, she hardly ever gets targeted.
I think with another mage, I could handle Hard or maybe even Nightmare difficulty, though it would be...err, well harder:) That and knowing what I know now sort of thing. I'm not sure I'd pick another Rogue at all to be honest. I can't recall any extraordinary loot for example I've gotten from chests or unlocked doors, and stealth and backstab while nice are mitigated by having a character with maxxed out awareness who can see almost all the big fights coming anyway. One or especially two warriors offer all the stunning, debuffing, and knockdown capability a party would ever need in melee.
One thing that chaps my ass, though, is that my L18 Rogue with extremely high cunning and better-than-average Willpower, and maxxed out awareness (or whatever that skill is called) still gets surprised by the pre-planned stealth mobs. Even when they're lower level than I am.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I've been feeling a little iffy about the extent to which saving is necessary. I guess what I don't like is how many situations will basically automatically kill your party the first time through unless you are insanely careful about where you're going, and then the second time through I feel like cheating because I already know where to position my party.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Same here...although I don't let that stop me from doing it. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
So, after not getting two more measly corpse gall despite doing scads of side quests and everything Orzammar related, I turned in my 16 - not the extra-reward-getting-18 - galls to the Chanter.
SPOILER
I then move on to the Forest. Guess what's there?
SPOILER Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wow, Haste and Cleansing Aura makes even the toughest fights...well, pretty easy actually.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm hooking myself up with a mod community to get my ideas passed off onto a popular overhaul.
I want a mod that makes it so that you can turn off the visibility of your helm. A mod that retools dex bonuses to damage, a mod that retools what spells an arcane warrior can cast without putting his weapon away (or at least makes it so that weapon drawing is not automatic at the start of combat) and a mod that retools the major problem with mages: 2/3rds underwhelming choices, 1/3rd overwhelming choices.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't even have cone of cold, I had no idea how useful it was......I'll have to get it next level.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Amen to turning off helm visibility. I can't tell my characters apart anymore.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, for me it's helpful that one is a female mage, one a female rogue, one a male warrior with sword and shield, and the last a towering qunari man with a greatsword;)
SPOILER
I was somewhat disappointed with Arl Howe's demise. It seemed sloppy storytelling to me. For one thing, he appeared completely untroubled by coming to a showdown with my character and her party, a quartet by now that has been tearing all over Ferelden through literally hundreds of darkspawn and hundreds of other enemies. Some of those exploits have to have been known to him.
For another, his rants didn't really explain anything-he alluded to the idea that my character's father was somehow a traitor to Ferelden, but in all this time playing I'd never heard anything but good things about him from other people, to say nothing of what I saw of him in the beginning. How was he able to nurse such crazy, hateful animosity without being suspected?
I mean, guys like that-backstabbing opportunists-they don't fight the conquering heroes, or at least not as a first resort. I was expecting some pleading or some extortion or something!
SPOILER Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Gaaah!!!! Friggin Revenant! (Just spent an hour trying to beat the courtyard in Redcliffe Castle, gave up for the night)
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I've also noticed that, for now, fighting is a lot more successful when Liliana's tactics consist of "draw a lot of aggro. Then run around, keeping the boss and his friends out of the fight for as long as possible. Then die."
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Gaaah!!!! Friggin Revenant! (Just spent an hour trying to beat the courtyard in Redcliffe Castle, gave up for the night)
The Gallant Knight and his tank buddies would like to remind you that they told you they would be waiting right outside the courtyard, ready to rush in the second you pull the lever to open the courtyard door.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: Gaaah!!!! Friggin Revenant! (Just spent an hour trying to beat the courtyard in Redcliffe Castle, gave up for the night)
The Gallant Knight and his tank buddies would like to remind you that they told you they would be waiting right outside the courtyard, ready to rush in the second you pull the lever to open the courtyard door.
Yeah, I busted my ass to finish that fight, only to remember that afterwards. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Stuff I've written about the game:
quote:The unfortunate issue regarding DA:O's class imbalance is that mages are overpowered in a way which is not readily fixable. The spells list is a minmaxer's dream, with any given character easily capable of filling up on all the blatantly overpowered spells (Cone of Cold, Force Field, etc) by the early to mid game and having little else to look forward to; fully two-thirds of the spells you can pick are spells you would never use even if you had them, because they aren't even worth spending your mana on when you have options like Crushing Prison.
Secondly, their specialization trees suffer from the same phenomenon. A character that goes Arcane Warrior + Blood Mage has made the "right" choice under most every circumstance, because Shapeshifter is utterly useless and Spirit Healer is a narrow-focus choice primarily for dedicated healers and doesn't mesh too well with incorporation into hybrid roles.
Other classes' specialization trees can only dream of powers as radically powerful and transformative as Combat Magic or Blood Wound.
Combat Magic is an example of a power which is ostensibly balanced by the imposition of a practical effect, but the imposition is easily sidestepped. In this case, the benefit is mostly that you get to wear armor, fight in melee, and escape the terrible itemization of mage gear, but the 'cost' you're supposed to have is that the upkeep of Combat Magic will jack your fatigue level into the 50-60% range easily, making it so that you have traded the bulk of your spell pool for the opportunity to wear armor and fight in melee. Were a character to leave Combat Magic active at all times, they would have only two or three spells per fight before they have essentially exhausted their entire mana pool.
Yet an Arcane Warrior can simply not leave Combat Magic on. They can start every battle wielding a staff, use their entire mana pool with only slightly less efficacy than a 'pure' mage, then once they've expended their mana pool, they can simply toggle on Combat Magic and all related sustainables and indulge themselves in all the benefits with few of the costs. Threat generation is simply not a concern; Arcane Warriors have the most dramatic damage reduction in the game, and most nuke-mages want to build up as much aggro as possible on themselves anyway. Their dramatic AoE threat generation plus Force Field can make them the ultimate tanks, as Dragon Age's enemy AI is silly and even the bosses will hammer impotently at invincible characters.
This leads to paradoxical tactics for people working through the game on the harder difficulties, outside of the homogenized Cone of Cold shatterfests that define 90% of all encounters.
It will be interesting to see how Bioware adjusts the game in the coming months. They may assume that with the public toolkit release and the modding community, they simply don't need to change anything for the core game. Well, that's not likely. They really do have to do a lot to bring mages down and bring rogues up.
Oh, and give people the option to turn their helms invisible.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That bordered on nerd rage, Sam. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
lol
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Spoilers about Loghain:
SPOILER
Boy, the way the whole thing with Loghain and Alistair worked out is in one way very cool. I like games with hard choices, after all. Loghain getting shunted into the Grey Wardens as punishment/chance at redemption is good storytelling.
Alistair getting outraged (justifiably) and abandoning Ferelden, on the other hand, was not. I could see him saying, "Screw you and the horse you rode in on, Elissa," and going to intense dislike, but it really just didn't fit his character for him to leave entirely.
SPOILER Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
SPOILER
*nod* I agree. In fact, my "saintly" ending was exactly that: I recruited Loghain, and allowed him to sacrifice himself instead of letting myself die. I was rather irritated that Alistair did not consider this to be a good act, because I'm convinced it's actually the win/win ending. (I set up Alistair as king sort of as an apology; I figure he'll forgive me when he's older.)
SPOILER
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I wasn't so much irritated at the character's reaction. It was, after all, very plausible if done differently. But that particular reaction, the way it was presented, felt railroaded.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: That bordered on nerd rage, Sam.
Haha. I thought I disclaimered that this is an absolutely great game. My job's to hammer pedantically at issues of game system balance adjustment and analyze how generally competently or incompetently they are managed.
Bioware's management of dao is particularly important to look at since they're ushering in the era of immediate downloadable everything. Prompt toolkit release, updates for everything, even the console releases.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
and before anyone says anything
quote:My job
literal. i get paid for it, it's pretty sweet
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
So do you find that there's a different skillset required of pros as opposed to dedicated amateurs? Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Where do you work?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILERS
So, the final dragon fight on Normal difficulty was pretty easy, though Wynne did have to suck down several potent lyrium potions what with Haste and Cleansing Aura being run nonstop. In fact the entire endgame in Denerim was easy-I never used even one of my armies until the very end, and that was more for novelty than anything else. Every single bad guy was going down literally in one shot, at least all the grunts which was most of them. I wonder if on hard difficulty the enemies change? That would be some potentially tough fighting, if instead of Hurlock grunts they were ordinary Hurlocks. They'd go down quickly, but not so quickly I'd be changing targets as quickly as I could click the mouse.
I had Flemeth & Morrigan's plan all wrong as it turns out. Didn't see that coming until there got to be hints late in the game that some additional Gray Warden sacrifices would be needed. I thought Flemeth sent Morrigan out strictly in order to have a tougher, more powerful body to take over when the time came, assuming that she actually steals their body as opposed to sacrificing it somehow to rejuvenate herself.
The way Morrigan left was very promising for sequels, but dissatisfying from my near-saintly perspective, from a storytelling point of view. I mean, every inch of the way, almost, my character has been toeing the Grey Warden/good guy line, showing no reluctance to risk or sacrifice myself. In fact the only substantive deviation was killing Loghain. But then along comes Morrigan. "Hey, buddy old pal ole friend of mine, listen, forget all that destroying the archdemon stuff. Instead, give it to me in the form of a malleable human baby! Oh, and don't ask any questions or expect to have even the slightest involvement in either raising or watching over this child-just trust me, the one who had this evil plan from the very beginning. Also, couldya get your lover to impregnate me in a dark ritual, and thus father my human infant sacrifice?
Me: Ummmm...no, Morrigan, I'm not going to do any of that.
Morrigan: Well, go to hell then! I'm leaving, screw this!
Was baffling more than distressing story-wise.
SPOILER
I'm wondering if a Mage can be effective with Coercion. My Rogue could, since it was tied to cunning and of course she had gobs of that. But it's a dump state Mage-wise.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I actually wonder what would happen if you didn't give Morrigan Flemeth's grimoire.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: So do you find that there's a different skillset required of pros as opposed to dedicated amateurs?
If you explain what you mean a little better, I probably have a good answer.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Hmmm. That's an interesting question, Tom.
On the other hand, this appears to have been a pre-arranged plan between Flemeth and Morrigan from the very start-so I suspect this ending is on rails.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I believe someone mentioned it here, but apparently specializations when unlocked are unlocked across all characters on that particular profile, because I just dinged 7 and have access to Spirit Healer, even though I only met Wynne in my origin, and Arcane Warrior, even though I never went to the place to get that, either.
I'm debating whether or not to just take it now well in advance of the time I could actually obtain it, saying to hell with it to balance, or to keep it real, hehe. It would be fun wearing all the armors, since as a Rogue I was limited too.
SPOILER
As a male mage, it was very easy to get involved with Morrigan, heh. In fact, I did so immediately after leaving Flemeth's Hut, at the 'random' encounter where you pick up the dog. This was made easier by the fact that there are already a few items at that point in the game that can be given as gifts to her.
The strange thing, though, is that while at first she said she would teach me Shapeshifting - I even got the notification that it was unlocked - when I accidentally clicked on that later, I got the same reaction as if I'd pissed her off, despite being in a relationship with her, having approval at the mid-60s, and her already having unlocked it for me. Weird.
I don't think I'll take it anyway though, because it just doesn't look that useful. Only four measly animals to change into? Pft.
Discovering spell combinations is fun:)
SPOILER Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Only four measly animals to change into? Pft.
3, the last ability just makes them stronger.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
While shapeshifter is lackluster, I have found Ranger to be quite useful. It's not a powerhouse, but it's great to have an extra meatshield.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Man, on Hard difficulty the game while playing with a mage as the PC is really not much more difficult at all than on Normal difficulty. Maybe even a bit easier, in fact. I may crank it up to nightmare during this playthrough.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Just finished the Forest section, out of order I think, and I headed to Redcliff.
I seemed to kill all of the enemies, but all of the guys near the Chantry died. Yet the game won't advance past this...I have covered all of the map, even, but can't find what I misses.
I DID forget to talk to the head of the Chantry, but I had already asked her blessing.....do I have to restart from before the fighting again?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Kwea,
There's not exactly a necessary order for the three alliances, though Alistair does if I remember correctly lean you towards Redcliffe. You won't have hurt anything by going to the Brecilian Forest first, in fact I think that's the shortest of all four stops (counting Redcliffe) by a substantial amount.
You may get quests from the Chanters' Boards and other places that take you back there, though.
As for your question about the fight, you mean the second stage of the 'defend against zombies' fight, right? I had a similar problem with the first stage - it wouldn't advance - and others have had odd non-starting problems, too. I ended up replaying it.
SUGGESTION-SPOILER
Going to the Circle of Magi first is really a good idea. I can elaborate if you like. You can even reload before the Redcliffe fight and just head to the Circle from there, disregarding the whole 'we're doomed tonight' business if you choose.
SPOILER Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I did the Tower mission first, and have Wynne in my possible group.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Oh, I see-I misread you to be saying you did the forest section first:)
If you've got Wynne in your group, you ought to consider having her heal the NPCs as well, or at least those you want saved such as possibly Murdock or Tomas. And if she's high enough to have Cleansing Aura, it works on all friendlies.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
One thing I'm not a fan of about this game is its inventory system. There are a good number of items I discover while I play that, for whatever reason, I don't want to get rid of, but you don't even get a chest in camp to store things in without an expansion. The only real option is to sell it to a vendor, but then you have to buy it back at a serious expense. That's not a problem for trivial things like gifts for characters you either don't have yet or don't need yet, but for things like an armor set that increases one form of elemental resistance, but not much else, there's nothing. Or class-specific items.
Finally in frustration I took to looking up the necessary stuff to access the console and add money-not to buy things I couldn't afford, but to buy back things I couldn't afford.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Also if you have the Warden's keep DLC there is another storage chest there.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I figured there would be add-ons, I was just gonna wait a little while - give `em time to be used by tons of people - before I snapped one up. Just got the DLC, though, and that chest not only isn't in your camp, it has a maximum capacity.
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