Yes, it is me. Now a long time has passed and I'm 11 years old. Huh.
Why is it that age decides what films, books, people, music, and other forms of things you're exposed to? Why must old, crusty men sit in their rotted lawn chairs and mutter derisively, "I remember innocence..." while pouring Tums into their mouths? I honestly don't care how many years I've been breathing oxygen. Why does this decide how I should act? I understand how children who shout profanity at other children across the room within the earshot of others is obnoxious. But why can't I know certain things even if I never use them in future situations? So what if I know about /b/? You don't see me prancing about the Internet throwing out the most obscene things that have ever existed upon this planet. I've actually ran into people who believe children should do everything their parents do until the age of 18. Just because they're your parents doesn't mean they're good role models. They told me I was too smart for my age and that I should be more dumb. These are the kind of people who raise idiotic, mumbling, pompous, angst-filled, sorry excuses for human beings that walk the Earth and then die, contributing barely anything to society. They grow up only to fill the niche of a hollow, boring shell of a child in the classroom. Just a personality-drained robot that follows the lead of the trend-setters. Then they become a deskmonkey, filing papers for money and coming home with migraines and stress. The only thing to greet them is 1 or 2 clones of them. The only positive thing they have left in their life is to watch American Idol and embrace the lives of other humans who, unlike them, grew a personality and became something. I simply think we're here for no reason, but we tried to make the best of it. One day when we're perfect androids with no flaws, we will have nothing left to do but watch other civilizations rise and fall. Soon we'll grow bored of that as well and have nothing else to do but die. And then we will be laughed at by a civilization not unlike what we once were. We'll be forgotten and washed away in the billions and billions of galaxies that will one day see the same fate as ours did. Not an "OHAMJAY EMO ANGSTAY POAM DE-AH LOAD", just what I believe will be the outcome of our fabulous, wonderful race we've got here.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
We choose arbitrary lines for lots of things, in order to protect the majority. Knowing full well, as we do so, that it's not a terribly fair or equitable way to restrict or allow certain things.
When I was young I was filled with righteous indignation about this.
C'est la vie.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Save a copy of this. Put it in a scrapbook, and read it again when you're 30. Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
quote:Why is it that age decides what films, books, people, music, and other forms of things you're exposed to?
In some cases, because it's demonstrably harmful to enough people under that age to have a lot of exposure. I think that often, it's harmful only because it leads to non-normative behavior with somewhat artificial social consequences. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to abandon the rule.
For instance, movies with a lot of profanity might teach kids to swear. Is swearing harmful, in itself? Not at all. But kids who swear too much can face disapproval and perhaps even some level of shunning; it can limit opportunities and help frame a pattern of social exclusion that can ultimately be detrimental to mental/emotional health.
While I don't think it's good to impose those kinds of consequences for using profanity, I also recognize that it will probably benefit my kids to avoid those consequences, since they exist. So I try not to swear a lot around them, and try to avoid exposing them to too much swearing. And this is, I believe, a good thing for me to do, even though the social framework which makes it necessary is stupid.
The same goes for exposure to sexually explicit materials, to some extent. If our society was actually good at protecting children from getting abused or exploited, or even just being active sexually at too young an age, then the heightened curiosity or the intense emotional experience of viewing sexually explicit materials might not be harmful - kids would have a chance to process the experience in non-harmful ways, without bringing on huge consequences. But the fact is, we too often suck at protecting children from abuse and exploitation, and certainly there's too much sexual activity at ages where kids aren't prepared for the consequences (or are generally terrible and avoiding them). So we try to shield and limit the exposure to sexually explicit information because, in this context, it can lead to acting out or emotionally compromised states that bring on huge consequences.
Anyway, save some surprises for later. Don't use them all up now.
(Oh, and tell your dad to use a dang filter. /b/, really? *shudder*)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Ah to be young and comically outraged by the sheeple
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Wait. I am young.
UGH SILENCE THE WORLD'S CHOKING CONFORMITY
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
The world is a vampire. Come to drain.
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
My littlest sister is your age, Luna, and I wouldn't want her to see /b/ or violent films (heck, I don't really want to see these things. And I don't believe she would want to, either. Believe me, there's almost nothing there to take with you.)
However, there is plenty that you-- with access to the internet and libraries-- can indulge in that will give you access to higher, adult thinking and experiences that does not delve into the muck.
I never understood that obsession with the violence and the swearing and the pornography. Is it simply because it is grown up that people want to experience it? I always found ample stimulation in other forms of grown-up culture: books (classic and modern), science fiction and fantasy, older movies (try the Marx Bros. if you don't know them already), offbeat and classical music.
These are things that challenge our brains. They are not innocent. They are full of battles nad blood and love-- think of Shakespeare. They are simply not as explicit. Explicit things that "crusty old men" and teachers don't want you to watch are usually-- although not wholly-- that way because they are trying to entertain really stupid people who can't feel anything unless they're watching a dismemberment. You are not one of these people.
I don't know what reading level you're at, Luna, but I imagine it is quite astronomical. Don't waste your time or your obvious brainpower on violent films out of Hollywood or the delightful human beings who inhabit /b/. There is so much more out there at which no teacher or "crusty old man" will blink an eye (or they will be impressed). Be sneaky. Challenge yourself.
You want recommendations? I'm sure Hatrack will be happy to oblige.
Congratulations on being 11!
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Even though you didn't ask, here's a recommendation! Try www.ted.com for videos of really interesting people sharing really interesting ideas. It's certainly not dumbed down. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it!
btw, interesting post! When I was eleven I was no where as informed of the world as you obviously are. As a soon-to-be teacher of fifth graders (which can include some eleven year olds) (just got promoted up from four years in fourth grade), its a good reminder to me that I need to be more mindful of just what they can know and understand these days.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Speaking as a parent, Luna....You have to keep in mind that kids are always attracted to the fringes of what they know, the things that seem very slightly edgy or dangerous or risque. The problem is that once you've partaken enough of that very slightly edgy thing, the next edge is just a little farther down that path, and your sense of what is "normal" has now moved very slightly towards what was once the edge. This is perfectly natural, but it also means that it can be very hard for a parent to protect his child from influences which he believes might harm her development; you actually have to draw the line well short of demonstrably harmful just so she, when she pushes the envelope, has some envelope left to push.
Consider /b/. Knowing it exists now presents the possibility that you might visit. Visiting means that you are, at any random moment, being exposed to not only truly ridiculous, over-the-top vulgarity and blatantly offensive drivel but also more insidious memes: the idea that "offense" is something which should never be taken seriously (and, in fact, the idea that taking offense is a character flaw); the idea that there is and should be nothing sacred; the idea that things like spelling and grammar are completely unimportant; the idea that women really are just objects of amusement insofar as they're female at all. Back when I was in college, there was a TV show called "Beavis & Butthead" which was a pretty cutting satire of a certain sort of shallow, empty-headed consumerist sensibility; sadly, the people who were the target of the joke completely failed to get the joke and saw the show as a celebration of that mindset, and took comfort in its exaggerations: they weren't quite as dumb as Beavis, so they could laugh at and glory in his misadventures without realizing that they were meant to be holding the mirror up to themselves. As a parent, I can't be sure that my daughter, visiting /b/, is going to understand all the anti-Semite jokes.
Heck, right now my eldest daughter -- who's six and very bright, herself -- really wants to watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit." And I'm very conflicted about that. On one hand, I know that at least half the jokes require a knowledge of pop culture that she doesn't have yet. She's never seen a noir film, and doesn't know that balding detectives were all ex-cops with a drinking problem and a dead relative; she has no idea what the phrase "on the lam" means, and I'm certainly not going to explain to her what a "casting couch" is. Heck, she's only seen a very few Warner Brothers cartoons, since they're not regularly aired on television anymore, so even moments like when someone runs out into empty space and doesn't fall until he looks down are new to her; she laughed when she saw the bit, but then seriously asked me why that happened. Let me drive that home: she knew it was supposed to be funny, laughed at it because she knew she was supposed to, and still wanted me to explain to her why she should find it funny. This is problematic. There are plenty of jokes in "Roger Rabbit" that are mild and harmless if you know enough to put them in the right framework, but are somewhat tetchy if you don't. Do I really want to have to explain to my daughter what "patty-cake" is meant to be in that context? When a baby is smoking a cigar and looking up "Toots'" skirt, is my daughter old enough to recognize that this behavior isn't actually intended to be modeled but is simply meant to confound expectation?
Kids are born mimics and born learners. Parents live in somewhat justifiable fear that their kids will mimic and learn as many bad things as good, and this complicates their own desire to produce children that are in some way sympathetic to -- or at least understanding of -- their own viewpoints and moral codes. I don't want my kid doing the Butthead laugh, or giving somebody a wedgie, or making a gay Jew joke on /b/ -- and if that means I don't let her watch "Beavis and Butthead," or shows where people get wedgies, or visit certain sites on the Internet, maybe it's worth it.
In a nutshell: it's hard. We do want you to grow up to be a free thinker, to be challenged, to be able to look at the wide diversity of the world and absorb what you find useful and reject the things that will hurt you. But it's a slow process, and we might not be proceeding at the same speed you are -- or, for that matter, you might not be as far along as you think.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I am a mom to a daughter. She is quite a bit younger than you. I want her to be a free thinker and not a follower. I want her to challenge herself and have lots of experiences. I will censor things for her when she is 11. Depending on her maturity level exactly what will be censored will vary. But regardless of maturity there are somethings that would be a no for me.
The obvious one is anything I would consider pornographic or meant to incite sexual interest. This would include shows like True Blood and romance novels. It would not necessarily include any novel with sex in it as long as it didn't feel like the sex was the point of the novel and I felt she was mature enough. The reason I would censor this category is I just don't think encouraging sexuality in an 11 year old is wise. I have never met an 11 year old that was ready for a sexual relationship and I see plenty of reason from pushing her in that direction.
I would also censor anything that falls into my broad category of "offensive". To me, this does not mean swearing. It is more along the lines of degrading. I wouldn't let her watch anything that I find to degrade, women, minorities, or a vast array of other groups. I simply don't believe in supporting this sort of dreck at any age. If I would turn it off because it offends me, I am certainly not going to be exposing a child to it. A lot but not all horror movies would fall into this category for me.
At 11 I would also consider censoring things that would be overly violent or scary. This category would vary greatly on the child. I would consider her as an individual and if I thought these things would disturb her. I am not opposed to them universally. If my child loves a good scare, I would not prevent them from watching a movie like the Sixth Sense or the Ring. If it I didn't think it would be too hard on her emotionally, I would let her watch a war movie. Some kids can handle this some can't.
I don't want to censor more than I have to and the line would constantly be moving with age and maturity in a lot of cases. I don't think learning a bit about sex and sexuality through novels and movies is all bad. At 11, it is too early for me. At 15, I would consider it.
The one think I hope my daughter understands some day is that I want her to experience as much of the world as possible. I don't keep her from things just because. I want her to have sex one day. My job is to help her make choices that lead to these things being positive experiences for her. I feel if I let her be exposed to these situations at too young of an age it decreases the probability that they will be positive things in her life. I bet a lot of the censorship you feel has good intentions even if it doesn't fully succeed at every turn.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Luna 9, my son is also 11. You remind me (from what I know by reading your posts) of him.
Take my word for it that I don't make decisions about R-rated movies or M-rated videogames lightly (and for the most part he never gets access to either).
Take comfort in this: youth is a condition which is always cured by the passage of time.
And by the way, I love that image of "perfect androids with no flaws/ watching other civilizations rise and fall"
I'll bet that you could turn that into a science-fiction poem and send it out for publication somewhere.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I wouldn't base my child's readiness for anything on a specific concrete age. I wouldn't say "oh, she's 14, so now she's ready" — the age is abstract and useful only for general cases and law. If, hypothetically, I have a kid who's ready to laugh at /b/ memes with me, then, ha ha. the odds of this being the actual case at age 11, though, is very very small. Whether they would know it or not, /b/ is a perfect stewing ground to culture positive reinforcement and mimicry of psychopathic* ideals
*yeah, yeah. psychopathic is such a florid term. Let's just put it in terms of criterion 7 for antisocial personality disorders: "lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another."
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but if you go read about brain development, there is a lot of evidence that your brain is not fully developed until mid-20s. At 11, you are physiologically inacapable of making the same long range decisions, examining all possible consequences, seeing subtle distinctions adults are. At 11, you should be practicing these skills, but it will be in a safe and controlled way. A different example- gymnastics. Some of the moves might look way cool, but until your muscles have developed appropriately, it could be very dangerous to you to do them (part of why the Olympics has minimum ages is to prevent that).
Also, car seats for children- a four year old might want to sit on the normal seat, he might be able to hold still and not wiggle and behave, but he still doesn't have the bone strength, weight, etc to survive impact. His body is too young.
Or a personal, mental one. I used to want to be a writer (I still do). I wrote a novel in jr high and I thought it was awesome and I should so be published. Now, I look back and realize how much better I can write. Heck, even stories from 5 years ago, I feel that way. I have learned and grown and my work with it. And I am glad no one published that novel when I was a kid, because I am so much better than that.
Your brain right now is growing, but it is still too young to handle certain important decisions and concepts. Sucks, but it is the way life is. But hey, just think, you are going to get even smarter and even better as you get older. You haven't peaked yet so just imagine what your capabilities will be in a few years.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Know that there are things which cannot be unseen. Don't try to fill your brain with garbage you'll have to think about later.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Well, I've learned something new. I didn't realize what /b/ was that Luna was referring to. After reading a few more posts, I realized that what I thought it was must not be what it really way, and so I looked it up.
Wow.
quote: Why is it that age decides what films, books, people, music, and other forms of things you're exposed to?
It's not age that should decide what someone is exposed to. After just a quick look I decided that /b/ decided that age has nothing to do with it. In this case, the mere fact that it degrades everyone on it makes it something not worth being exposed to. I'm glad to have been educated about /b/ because if I hear kids in my class talk about it I can respond with knowledge of why it isn't worth exposing yourself to.
I hope you'll reconsider your desire to have exposure to things that really have no worth whatsoever.
Posted by Luna 9 (Member # 11326) on :
Why is it that some people think because I KNOW about /b/ means that I visit it? Good Cthuhlu, no. I hang out on /x/, one of the less soul-scarring boards.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
Oh, good. Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Are you saying that the human race will become nothing because of bad parenting? Or are the choices made by the children as they become adults the cause?
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Why is it that some people think because I KNOW about /b/ means that I visit it? Good Cthuhlu, no. I hang out on /x/, one of the less soul-scarring boards.
It did seem rather implied in the original post that you went there (at least) on occasion. I don't know anyone who thinks you'd be remotely affected by /b/ just by KNOWING about it, unless you were actively participating or at least looking.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: The world is a vampire. Come to drain.
Meant to drain.
Never mis-quote a rock god, my friend.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I didn't.
PUMPKIN BURN!
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Why is it that some people think because I KNOW about /b/ means that I visit it? Good Cthuhlu, no. I hang out on /x/, one of the less soul-scarring boards.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Pay more attention to those boring saps watching American Idol, the fact that they go with the flow is not their only personality trait.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
Nice generalization, T:man. What about those phonies wearing t-shirts of your favorite underground musician?
Posted by August (Member # 12307) on :
Bias based on age is the pits. I hate people that talk down to their youngers, or try to deny them opportunities. It shows a lack of perspective (unless, of course, in the case of the parents who have posted their arguments above). Well, I'm barely older than you in the eyes of most Hatrackers! But both our brains are developing differently than everybody else's. You've realized this, right? It's the reason why you write using your intellect, use correct grammar and hang out on Hatrack. Congratulations on demonstrating supreme maturity for your age! I don't believe in subjecting myself to things that can damage that developmental process; I know all too well that things that happen in childhood can haunt us forever. While I think that filters against /b/ are probably a good idea, you're obviously capable of maneuvering the interweb with a clear head, and a good sense of judgement. It's always important to keep an open mind. That being said, don't go out looking for potentially damaging sites! Psychology is a tender thing; we must always tread carefully no matter what our age. If you're looking for a challenge, make sure it's something that you consider worthwhile, not just a 'learning experience'. Life is a learning experience, but you want to make sure that the content you fill it with is meaningful. For now, it seems like you're already doing that, and I wish you only the best as you explore.
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
I keep thinking about my children. Two we are in the process of adopting from foster care (ages 6 and 3), one we adopted at birth (age 4). I did not let the six year old cross the street without holding my hand until she was six. This is because she had only known me a short time and did not trust my instructions. If I said, "Stop!" she would keep going to spite me (she has had a very hard life). Once she was ready, I let her go. The four year old got the same privilege about two weeks after the six year old (honestly I would have given it much sooner for him, but I was trying to stop jealousies). At this point I feel like I will be holding the three year old's hand until he is sixty-five. In his case, he has NO sense of personal safety. He hates that he has to hold my hand, but he has run in front of moving trucks to be funny. The line moves, but there is a line.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
When I was in my early college years, I dared to do some crazy stunts. I shimmied underneath the school buildings in the steam tunnels and I walked onto rooftops.
I don't have the guts to do those things now. My sense of self-preservation is much much stronger now than it was just 10 years ago. But I wouldn't necessarily tell my younger version to stop doing it.
Luna, I think you've shown that you're introspective and thoughtful. Sounds like a good method for handling the world. I think as long as you keep looking at the reasons you want to experience different parts of the world, and be aware of the consequences (not in the 'Parents Say' way, but by taking the responsibility to understand the consequences on your own) you'll do great.
Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Nice generalization, T:man. What about those phonies wearing t-shirts of your favorite underground musician?
Noooo I do this all of the time I don't want to be a phony! My best shirt s my Black Moth Super Rainbow one!
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Nice generalization, T:man. What about those phonies wearing t-shirts of your favorite underground musician?
Shoot I don't even know any underground musicians and yet I'm sure I have lots of their t-shirts.
The point I was trying to make is that, and I'm sure you know this, there is more than a single defining trait to a person. You cannot describe anyone in a single sentence. Just because someone took the easy route in school, trying to stay 'normal' doesn't make them boring. And it certainly doesn't mean they will contribute nothing to society.
I'm not sure I understood what you were trying to say Reader, but whatever.
And Luna, sorry for not addressing the main point of your essay whatsoever.
(Heehee whatsoever is a word )
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I don't think I understand what you are trying to say either, now.
Actually, it would probably help me to read some more posts in the thread. I might get it then. I apologize.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: Actually, it would probably help me to read some more posts in the thread.
O irony! Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
This is why kids should be taught a little philosophy. That and I think one of the problems that kids have, I certainly did when I was that age, was having the tools to both verify what was good information and what biases I was picking up from my environment.
Example Luna, you talk about deskmonkeys that work 9-5 with nothing to show for their efforts but an ungrateful family. I certainly know some people that could fit into that category, but I also know dozens that do not. Those same people went through the "cookie-cutter" of society. Some of the most radical thinkers I know look rather plain from the outside.
Nihilism also has more than a few flaws in and of itself. I think we tend to really devalue subjectivity in our society and go towards some objectivity that I feel really doesn't exist anywhere. That being as everything is interconnected, therefore it is all subjective. That being the case there is nothing wrong with the meaning for humanity coming from itself in the first place.
Not to mention a android without flaws that grows disinterested with the universe seems to have a rather grand flaw in the first place. Really what I'm saying is that to be truly critical you must be critical of the very critical thoughts that you're having. It is an endless loop of sorts that can be very satisfying in itself. Such as saying that everything has no meaning, yet some ways of living it our pitiful. Those certainly come across as mutually exclusive ideas, certainly in the objective.
I know that if you had told me as a teenager where I am today I would have scoffed and laughed at you. Not to mention have looked forward to all the good things and dreaded the bad.
Totally should study philosophy, just saying.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Luna, if you're already bored of everything at eleven then you are taking life way to fast. Slow down a bit.
I assure if you just observe slowly everything will be infinetely more interesting.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Not an "OHAMJAY EMO ANGSTAY POAM DE-AH LOAD",
I have no idea what that means -- care to explain it to an old person?
Are there seriously people who have told you you are too smart and that you should be more dumb? Or, perhaps, is that your interpretation of their message? I'd be interested to hear of some examples. Was it because they did not want to hear your opinions on certain subjects because they perceived you as too young or immature? Or were these people who were trying to deny you access to information based on your age?
I'd also be interested to read your response to Tresopax's question above.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
luna, you should get into like, I dunno, slam poetry or something. Ranting about cultural normatism before a crowd of posthipster counterculturals mixed with a straight-edge sheen, perhaps throwing in references to things Frank Zappa said many decades ago? Tops.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
There is a bit of uh, cynicism and bitterness in the post. While angsty youth are a bit of a cliche, some of the be young longer might come from that. There is plenty of time for bitterness and cynicism after life has kicked you good and hard repeatedly.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
There is never time for bitterness and cynicism. Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: There is never time for bitterness and cynicism.
That's fair.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted:
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Not an "OHAMJAY EMO ANGSTAY POAM DE-AH LOAD",
I have no idea what that means -- care to explain it to an old person?
I'm curious too. I lose track starting with POAM
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Free verse angst?
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: There is never time for bitterness and cynicism.
Agreed. As the great Coco once said, "It's my least favorite personal trait."
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted:
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Not an "OHAMJAY EMO ANGSTAY POAM DE-AH LOAD",
I have no idea what that means -- care to explain it to an old person?
I'm curious too. I lose track starting with POAM
"Oh my god! Emo(tional) angsty poem. Dear lord!"
OMG and Emo are sort of youngish hip phrases, but honestly if you just read it in a sort of... old timey southern accent it comes together pretty clearly.
Not sure if old-timey southern is what Luna was going for, but that's how it sounds in my head.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I read the thread, T:man. I know what you mean now.
Luna, I used to have the same fears and resentments just a few short years ago, and I'm 26. A lot of "deskmonkeys" like their jobs, so who am I to criticize them if it provides a basic fulfillment? Many do not, but recognize that they are providing for their families.
People are dynamic, and everyone has something fascinating to say, or an interesting story to tell. That is a cliche, but I have found that it's true as well.
The only "crusty old guy" that you described that I know is my grandpa. In my experience, old people tell great stories because they have lived for so long. Not all of them have any particular wisdom about Life, but as for living they have that covered well!
I think age limits suck too. I wish I could collect social security now! Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
First off, I'm totally projecting my personal experiences on to your post. If this is completely off base, or unhelpful, ignore it.
Luna, you're right. Sort of. People discriminate against you because of your age. I would assume a great deal of it is unwarranted and unfair. You are smarter than many of the people around you; this probably makes some of them dislike you, which is all the more infuriating because they're stupid. In my case (I won't claim your intelligence, just what might be a series of similar experiences), it was all the more infuriating because I shouldn't care whether or not the stupider kids, teachers, in my case, parents and family, thought of me. (Excuse that sentence; I realize it's convoluted) But I did care that they didn't like me, and the fact that I cared frustrated me to no end. I convinced myself it was because justice was affronted. That it was an insult to all of humanity that somebody stupid should be popular, and that somebody smart like me, misunderstood. But, it wasn't an affront to justice as much to me. I wanted to be liked, was smart enough to realize that I deserved to be liked, but wasn't liked by my peers or a great many people I looked up to. It sucked.
But. They actually weren't stupid. Some were fantastically uninformed when it came to a great deal of things I was interested in, and would never become a great world shaker, but they were not stupid. And I find now that my life was enriched because they were there (Later, when we established tenuous friendships). I suggest learning to tolerate those people whom annoy you; they will surprise you upon occasion. Even the ones who watch American Idol.
And they'll always be around, so you might as well get used to it. And get used to explaining yourself, and making yourself heard. It won't always work; some of these people will steadfastly believe that they know more than you and cut you off, and commit the nearly-unforgivable crime of not letting you explain yourself. And this disbelief and invalidation of your experience and knowledge by some who are not as intelligent as you are will continue throughout your entire life. Your age is bringing this about in a lot more force now, but it's not something that you'll grow out of. People, of whom it's tempting to think stupidity, will be with you for your entire life.
If you get to deal with it now, it's all the better. Einstein said, I believe, that nobody really understands anything until they can explain it to their grandmother. So, start 'splainin. And when people don't listen, don't respond with cynisism and anger. Shake the dust off your boots and leave.
I guess what I'm trying to say is:
1. Your intelligence will ensure that this is an annoyance that will follow you for all of your life. It's a hell of a lot worse now with you being so young, but it's not going to dissolve. Not ever. Even if you win prizes and become a world-famous whatever-it-is you'd like to be. Some kind of coping mechanism is needed. I can't really define what worked for me, I don't know.
And...
2. Those annoying sycophants are real people, a lot of whom have things of value to contribute, and they will enrich your life. Even if you believe, or truly are, more intelligent than they are (Which is a great allowance, by the way). If they are hurtful, that is another matter. But if they're only crime is not being able to understand you, or appreciate the value of what you say, you do them an injustice by ranking them all as 'deskmonkeys'.
[ June 30, 2010, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Emreecheek ]
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
Also, I'd just like to say: I don't believe at all that your being intelligent *should* be a reason for people to treat you badly, or make you feel like you need to dumb yourself down. That's entirely their problem. I don't think I really iterated that enough in the last post. Your intelligence and wit are things to be proud of, and people *should* like you better for it. In many cases, when people responded with hostility to me (Again, this is just my personal experience), it was unwarrented, and not my fault; I would assume it's much the same for you.
And, in case my last post sounded bleak, I do belive there are people out there you will appreciate you for who you are, and you will have people who appreciate all of the wonderful things you bring to the table. I just meant there will always be at least one person in your life who won't. That person certainly pales in importance in comparison to people who love you for the awesome person that you are.
Also, having to explain yourself to others is criminally unfair. I don't believe the necesitty is any less true because it's unfair, but I will say that it is not cool at all that somebody who is gifted, as you are, has things harder in some ways.
Sorry. I tend to ramble. In any case, I thought I was harsh in the last post, and may have come accross more critical than I meant to. If that is the case, I apologize.
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
I am unsure if I accidentally deleted this bit, or if a moderator took it off. I think it's the former, which is why I'm reposting it. If it was the latter, I'm sorry.
"There is plenty of time for bitterness and cynicism after life has kicked you good and hard repeatedly."
Many young people have been kicked good and hard, repeatedly. It's presumptuous and naive to believe that time is a prerequisite to pain, or is subsequent dissilusionment. As somebody who considers himself to have "survived" his childhood, and has enough friends who are also "survivors" to surprise you, all of whom have experienced quite enough kicking to have responded with angst that was completely warranted, I think you should reconsider your statement (Almost as much as I should reconsider that run-on sentence). Angsty or "emo" teens may just be a trend to some, but it's largely an indicator of a rising trend of abuse and hardship in the lives of children. It's horrible to invalidate their feelings on the basis of their youth.
Posted by Luna 9 (Member # 11326) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: There is a bit of uh, cynicism and bitterness in the post. While angsty youth are a bit of a cliche, some of the be young longer might come from that. There is plenty of time for bitterness and cynicism after life has kicked you good and hard repeatedly.
Pfft, I wasn't even trying to be bitter. If I was trying, you all would be cowering in the corner, weeping. Anyways, I wasn't being mean. I was telling the truth. The nitty, gritty truth. Really if you look at it, life is quite pointless. Sure, we could do something to improve life for future humans, but what do we care? We shall be dead. Not saying life is sad. I'm saying there's no point to it. I'm not being depressing, I'm telling the truth. And after having analyzed that so much, I've come to accept it. I have invited it. The only reason things like this depresses people is because they let it.
Posted by Luna 9 (Member # 11326) on :
quote:Originally posted by T:man: Luna, if you're already bored of everything at eleven then you are taking life way to fast. Slow down a bit.
I assure if you just observe slowly everything will be infinetely more interesting.
I assure you I'm not bored with life. I enjoy little things. For hours at a time I'll sit and look at the skeletal structure of a leaf, just because it fascinates me so much that an organism has evolved so that it survives. I'm interested by the fact we EXIST. I know it's amazing that the electronic pulses that allow us to live are able to power us for so long. (Cue "Miracles" by Insane Clown Posse) I sit for hours asking myself questions. It often goes like this:
Hm. I wonder why women love cute things. Because the mother in them takes kindly to anything resembling an infant.
I wonder why men are so hairy. They need the extra insulation to survive while they were hunting.
And on and on and on.
My point is: I'm fascinated by life. I just hate society. I hate people and I hate what they do. I'm not bored with them. I hate them. No, hate isn't a strong word, it's the correct term. I hate people who are afraid to do what they want because of the judgement of other headcheeses their age. I hate that we have to act in a very complicated and certain way to gain social approval.
John (in sad but dreamy tone): Goodbye, Rebecca. Rebecca (in same tone): Bye, John.
John(in hurried tone because John has forums to troll): Bye, Rebecca. Rebecca: OMFG WHY DID YOU SAY IT LIKE THAT MDMIASNCDJSCJNSDNNFS
I hate tones. I hate that it matters how you say something. I seem arrogant in real life because I stare in disdain at everybody. In actuality, I'm doing this because I'm remembering past events or just circulating hatred of the location I'm at (usually school). I look angry because I don't make the same expression I'm thinking. I tend to look threatening all of the time. This is because I'm generally angry because I'm around people and I don't like the presence of others. Only those who don't care about my face and see I'm a good person are my friends. That's why I have good friends.
I'm sorry if that was barely a coherent lecture, it's 5:11 am here and my brain is having multiple strokes. I'm also hallucinating shadow figures due to sleep deprivation. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I hate people and I hate what they do.
It sounds to me like sour grapes, to be frank. You want to be liked, but haven't learned or are inconvenienced by the traditional social cues that would make it easier for people to like you.
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Pfft, I wasn't even trying to be bitter. If I was trying, you all would be cowering in the corner, weeping. Anyways, I wasn't being mean. I was telling the truth. The nitty, gritty truth. Really if you look at it, life is quite pointless. Sure, we could do something to improve life for future humans, but what do we care? We shall be dead. Not saying life is sad. I'm saying there's no point to it.
This is a post made by someone who has a lot left to experience in life. Your truth is very much shaded by your life experience. It is the post of someone who has never held their baby in their arms. I can see the point everyday in my 2 year old. The meaning of it all is overwhelming when you rock your baby to sleep. You are at an age where there is a lot of life you have left to experience. Perhaps you will find the point one day when lying in bed with your husband nestled next to your baby. Perhaps it will come to you when you are at the funeral of a beloved Grandparent who you've lost. Life is full of meaning. Part of being mature and intelligent is being able to see what you don't know yet. If there are so many things in the world that you haven't experienced, then you have to at least hold open the possibility that the meaning of life is in them.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Really if you look at it, life is quite pointless. Sure, we could do something to improve life for future humans, but what do we care? We shall be dead.
But we aren't dead yet.
What if life is as meaningful as you choose to make it while living?
So far in this thread you've been treating the problems of life as if they are unchangable facts of nature created by everybody else - by parents who don't know how to parent well, by peers who are shallow, by "society". But you have a choice too. You get to choose who you will become, and you get to choose how you look at the world. You don't have to hate the people who don't understand you. You don't have to live life as if it has no point. The ability to choose is essentially alchemy: you can take something meaningless and, by choosing to care about it, transform it into something of great value, at least to you.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:In actuality, I'm doing this because I'm remembering past events or just circulating hatred of the location I'm at (usually school). I look angry because I don't make the same expression I'm thinking. I tend to look threatening all of the time. This is because I'm generally angry because I'm around people and I don't like the presence of others.
Oh, Luna, that's such a shame. One of the greatest joys of life is the fact that we're not alone on this little ball of rock. You may not ever find that mythical kindred spirit but you will always learn from others, even if you believe (at first) that they do not have the same processing power as you.
If you do not try to show others that you like them, they will not like you. Don't get locked into a cycle where you will always lose.
quote:Really if you look at it, life is quite pointless. Sure, we could do something to improve life for future humans, but what do we care? We shall be dead.
That is why enjoying life is important! You control your grumpiness-- I can tell you that being up at 5:00am is not going to help that now or in ten or twenty years.
If you don't think you can be friends with anyone in your class, take the time at least to get to know some of the less-annoying ones. Think of it as a social experiment, if you want.
Some people are annoying, but they can make some things exponentially more fun.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Chances are that not everyone at your school is a braindead moron with nothing to offer the world. Have you considered that you might want to adjust your own attitude.
Your bad outlook on life is only cheating yourself. If your life seems meaningless, use your big brain to make meaning. If you think everyone around you is annoying and dumb, use all those smarts in your jumbo head to find some common ground and realize what they're good at.
Posted by deerpark27 (Member # 2787) on :
L9,
Nothing doing is too. U nowhere?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I'm fascinated by life. I just hate society. I hate people and I hate what they do. I'm not bored with them. I hate them. No, hate isn't a strong word, it's the correct term. I hate people who are afraid to do what they want because of the judgement of other headcheeses their age.
quote:I hate tones. I hate that it matters how you say something. I seem arrogant in real life because I stare in disdain at everybody. In actuality, I'm doing this because I'm remembering past events or just circulating hatred of the location I'm at (usually school). I look angry because I don't make the same expression I'm thinking. I tend to look threatening all of the time. This is because I'm generally angry because I'm around people and I don't like the presence of others.
I'm sad I don't get to be the first person to talk about how this completely screams "sour grapes!"
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
If I understand luna right, its that she can't manage her own social cues, weirds people out because she constantly glares at people, then hates society because of the expected result, gratifying herself with reactionary misanthropy.
She sounds a lot like myself at her age. It took me about a decade to understand how dumb I was.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Hm. I wonder why women love cute things. Because the mother in them takes kindly to anything resembling an infant.
I wonder why men are so hairy. They need the extra insulation to survive while they were hunting.
Luna 9,
I am impressed with your interest in issues that incorporate evolution, sociology and psychology.
I encourage you to think more deeply about this stuff, if you are truly interested. There is so much more to it, and it is so much more fascinating than simple answers could ever cover. In other words, don't stop there!
If you think there's an innate mothering instinct in human females, then try to figure out why it's there, how it could possible work (hard wired in the brain? hormonal influences? social training layered on instinctive behavior patterns?, whatever?). And then, maybe go even deeper and think about how those mechanisms might fail. Why are there mothers who kill their children - what went wrong if there really is an innate mothering instinct?
I highly recommend the same kind of thing WHENEVER you start thinking about biology. Don't stop at the simple. Don't just accept the first answer that seems to cover the surface question.
And, above all...have fun!
Posted by deerpark27 (Member # 2787) on :
You must, I emphasize -- MUST -- take into account the likelihood that L9 (or you and you (and you too!)) are living in different universes, sharing (as we've come these days to expect) physical cues (i.e."Look! There's that old moon again", "Don't you find it a little chilly?" or "Something's dug a preposterous hole beneath the shed!" though none seem the wiser. Passing through each other, as one is wont to do, even if one isn't wonting, is side-affect. See? Mere chatter. Existential friction.
I, as I've told myself over and over, know just the thing, the way to -- overcome -- the alledged friction:
Get up early. Earlier than that! I mean really early, in fact, it may still feel like yesterday it's so early. Then, go out! Yes...right out into that darkness, too dark for dawn to be of any comfort, and stand there and wait: watch: things turn into themselves: now you: begin.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Something I always tell me wife:
If you worry about what other people think of you, then you are going to live life too scared to make something of yourself.
You may be smarter than most of the kids in your school, but don't let that prevent you from making friends. Even the dumbest kid in your school will know things you don't. They may know a lot about cars, bikes, sports, or other subjects that you don't have experience with. I personally hang out somewhere where I am one of the dumb kids and I get to learn from the smart ones. That is why I frequent Hatrack. King of Men can (and does on a regular basis) school me on all things science. I may not agree with some of his views, but it does not mean I can't learn anything from him. I may know things KoM doesn't on other subjects, such as music theory. The point is you may be suprised what you learn from others, even if they have an IQ that matches their shoe size.
Life isn't pointless, it is what you make of it. Do what you can to learn everything possible, and try to make your own contribution to it.
Posted by deerpark27 (Member # 2787) on :
Life is not the point
Posted by deerpark27 (Member # 2787) on :
The appointment has already been made with the Xray technician in the basement of the Medical Arts building. He cannot speak English, so he points out where you should sit. There is a stain on his jacket. (Death is not a perfectionist)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I guess this thread is being turned into an avant-garde dadaist work or something now.
Posted by deerpark27 (Member # 2787) on :
Let's just stick to the facts(as seen from below, beside the splatter): One child(tm); thick legs hanging over the edge of the nest. One nest, ruptured by the unexpected weight, somewhat fetid from the sweat, from the persistant pushing of the last egg over the edge. One world, perplexed by the sharp hard song chirped into the white rising sun. One question: Whowho?Whowho?Whowho?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Hi Luna!
I've been thinking for a couple of weeks about what to write to you and how to explain well how someone's thinking changes from elementary school to adulthood. You covered a lot in your post, from censorship to parents to school to jobs to the meaning of life, so it's hard to discuss opinions on any of those topics in a concise and meaningful way and give them all their due in a way that doesn't make people not want to read what I wrote.
I'm 24 and in graduate school, but I remember a lot from my childhood and the way I used to think (unlike a lot of adults), and while people my age have five-year-old kids, I'm still treated like a kid myself sometimes (it's bizarre). However, I look at people younger than me and can see patterns of thinking that are very much age-related. Even so, while I knew less, I was sharper back then than I am now, and quite frankly, the personality flaws that I noticed in me at that age still haven't gone away.
Long before you posted, I had an idle fantasy about writing a blog about what it's like to be a grown-up, and try to explain to kids how grown-ups think and why they think like they do. I can sum up a lot if by stating that we don't get enough sleep, working to make money to buy food/clothing/shelter takes up a ridiculous amount of time, and we're a rather jaded bunch.
Not to single any particular post out, but I found a lot of people's responses to your post to be patronizing. Given that you wrote off all of humanity, I think everyone forgets that every other person is a thinking person, just that people very rarely share their inner thoughts on the meaning of life.
I'll give you some advice.
1. Don't screw up school because you think you are too good for it. Saying "I'm smarter than all of those so-called smart kids, but they get better grades than me because they do their work, but I could beat them if I just bothered at all" gets you nowhere. I'm not saying that you have this attitude now (I don't actually know), I'm saying don't ever go there. Staying smart on paper will be your ticket out of town post high school. If you have the grades/SAT scores to get into any Ivy League, Top University or Liberal Arts College, the best schools in the country will discount the tuition/fees to what your family can afford. These schools have a lot of opportunities outside the classes they offer, and the kids who go to them as young adults, were like you when they were 11.
2. It's a lot harder for parents to censor reading material than it is to censor movies. They have to have heard of the book.
3. Most of the world hasn't reached the drone stage where society is pointless. Not even close. If you don't want to be really depressed, don't read anything about environmental issues, where our food comes from, or society abroad.
Have you read these?
a. Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes (the novel, not the short story). It's about a mentally handicapped man who undergoes an experiment that gradually gives him the intellect of an intelligent person. He also loses it, and knows it's happening to him.
b. The Friendship Ring books by Rachel Vail. Scholastic wanted these books to take off but the books never got that popular. Even so, they were quite good, or at least the first three that I read were good. It was interesting to see the perspective of kids who cared about what others thought of them a lot more than I ever did. The first three also take place concurrently, so you see the same events from three perspectives.
c. Half the Sky by Nicolas D. Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn. This is the last book I've read. It rather graphically details abuses that still happen to women today, and what was on my mind when I wrote above that the world was still a lousy place.
d. Books by Margaret Peterson Haddix. Leaving Fishers, Takeoffs and Landings, Running Out of Time and the House on the Gulf are the best in my opinion.
Also, if you have any more questions, keep posting. Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Pfft, I wasn't even trying to be bitter. If I was trying, you all would be cowering in the corner, weeping.
This is the cutest thing any 11 year old has said ever. It reminds me of Brain from Pinky and the Brain fame. Intelligent, angry and oh so cute.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202:
quote:Originally posted by Luna 9: Pfft, I wasn't even trying to be bitter. If I was trying, you all would be cowering in the corner, weeping.
This is the cutest thing any 11 year old has said ever.
If not typed directly.
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Luna! Instead of seeing people scowl at your angry/thinking face and hating them, just laugh at their ignorance and educate them. Don't sneer at 'dumber' people, laugh and help them refine their intelligence. You don't even need to help them just laugh and then you'll be less filled with hate.
I completely agree with TheAmeezaz if the above doesn't work just apply yourself ignore the rest and soon they'll all be gone.
But don't go and pursue all that interests you, it'll take way to long, I'm assuming you have the same problem as me: you are interested by everythin right?
(I apologize for any spelling mistakes, I'll edit them out late, I'm on my blackberry in the middle of nowhere)
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by deerpark27: Get up early. Earlier than that! I mean really early, in fact, it may still feel like yesterday it's so early. Then, go out! Yes...right out into that darkness, too dark for dawn to be of any comfort, and stand there and wait: watch: things turn into themselves: now you: begin.
Deerpark27, whoever you are m'dear, thank you. This is meaningful to me and among my favorites of your creative art. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Wow, this is good conversation and reminders about social cues, attitudes, choices and opportunities for even us jaded-older-parental unit types with the desk job we don't particularly like but keep because the income and medical benefits are needed to raise the next generation.
My next generation -- a thoughtful, fun-loving, energetic mid-teen -- accused me of trying to make him grow up too fast the other day.
I don't know what's wrong with me: how could I possibly expect him at 16 1/2 to learn to drive and get a part-time job? *grin*
Ahh, the joys of nest nudging begin now, I suppose.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
part time job, maybe. If he isn't busy already with scholastics. Driving? very yes. hardcode it in while your brain is still young!
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