I can't stand people who, with everything they say, indicate that they think they're so funny or clever. I was always taught that it wasn't polite to show off, so I get internally angry when other people "get away" with doing so. I wish I could just not let it get me down, but it seems to be easier said than done for me.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I just remember I'm infinitely superior to them in every conceivable way, then I put on shades, say 'peace' and kickflip away.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I probably fall into that category from time to time. (I'm not sure if your issue is with people who do it on occasion or people who are always like that). Also not sure whether you asking for a way to privately deal with it, or a way to politely ask them to stop.
I don't think of it as anything "inherently" rude, but I think there are circumstances where it is not appropriate, and if you're dominating every conversation then there's a problem. If you're in one of those circumstances I think "hey, could you tone it down" is a perfectly valid thing to say. If not... well, basically you either grin and bear it or you go ahead and say something that might come across as rude (depending on the social norms at the time) but will get most people to ease up on it.
Posted by Flying Fish (Member # 12032) on :
Lots of people -- many of whom are beneath me -- think I'm arrogant. I don't even deign to notice them.
But seriously, an internal shrug reflex is useful. You can't change them, but you might be able to change how you feel about them.
If that doesn't work, think of irritating people the same way you think of the weather. Nothing personal, but just some of the background of your daily life.
Another tack: remember that to somebody else, even if only to themselves, some of these are genuinely funny or clever, so they're brightening somebody's day.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
If you played basketball in highschool ... yeah.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It isn't arrogance that bothers me. It's misplaced arrogance. Penn Gillette is arrogant, but he's got the intelligence to back it up, so it doesn't irk me.
When people call me arrogant (and oddly enough, it happens less frequently than you'd think), I usually just say, "You say that like it's a bad thing."
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I define arrogance as either "thinking you're BETTER that other people" (as opposed to smarter, or stronger, or whatever, because those are actual traits you can measure and denying it is just as silly as emphasizing it) or "thinking you're (stronger/smarter/faster) than you really are."
Anything else is Pride, which is perfectly healthy IMO.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Omega: In all honest, and I say this kindly, you might consider working on your self confidence. Nobody can make you feel below them.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 5938) on :
Take away their credit cards.
No, wait, that's how you keep a herd of elephants from charging.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Nobody can make you feel below them.
This. If you don't want to think they're as great as they think they are, that's your prerogative.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I read the initial post not as "they make me feel inferior" so much as "they're acting rude and its annoying."
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
If you've got any questions about arrogant people, you've come to the right place. Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote: Anything else is Pride, which is perfectly healthy IMO.
Ehh. I'd say it's usually okay in moderation, and only as a means, not an end.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
eh.... okay we're into silly semantic territory by this point, but basically my definitions are "if it's unhealthy, it's arrogance, if it's healthy, it's pride."
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Well, Ray, you're just wrong. I'd elaborate, but it's not like you'd understand anyway.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
*kickflips out of thread*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I was always taught that it wasn't polite to show off, so I get internally angry when other people "get away" with doing so.
Do you wish you could do the same, or do you feel like the world is a little more unfair because they are not being punished for what you consider to be rude behavior?
If you wish you could do the same, you probably could.
If you wish them to be punished to keep justice in the world, I suggest picking your battles. And not picking this one. There are all sorts of horrible things people get away with, and excessive bravado won't even make the top twenty.
If you feel like their confidence takes away something from you, I suggest, as others have above, in increasing your self confidence. It isn't a zero sum game. Someone else's swagger doesn't take anything from you.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Samprimary went offroad and did backflips and landed on back wheels but kept going too.
edit to include reward of 10 e-cookies for anyone who gets the reference. (Please, someone get the reference so I can feel a bit more nerdish rather than dorkish).
[ July 15, 2010, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: rollainm ]
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Dude, you forgot your shades.
EDIT-timing = ruined
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I thought it was funny regardless.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: [QUOTE] Someone else's swagger doesn't take anything from you.
Yes, this.
I recall in early high school walking through the mall with a group including my brother. Looking across the walkway at a stranger who was exhibiting arrogance, my brother became indignant: "Look at that guy. I hate people like that."
Then someone in our group replied to my brother, "Looks like you're the one with the problem."
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anthonie:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: [QUOTE] Someone else's swagger doesn't take anything from you.
Yes, this.
I recall in early high school walking through the mall with a group including my brother. Looking across the walkway at a stranger who was exhibiting arrogance, my brother became indignant: "Look at that guy. I hate people like that."
Then someone in our group replied to my brother, "Looks like you're the one with the problem."
I do agree with kat. But your brother expressing his distaste with the way another carries himself doesn't necessarily mean he has a problem. You don't have to feel inferior or intimidated by his arrogance to know you find his behavior off-putting.
If someone expresses their distaste with bigotry or willful ignorance or violent behavior, do you think "Looks like you're the one with the problem" is an appropriate response?
Posted by T:man (Member # 11614) on :
Is it arrogance if I just think I'm better, not actually say it regularly?
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: eh.... okay we're into silly semantic territory by this point, but basically my definitions are "if it's unhealthy, it's arrogance, if it's healthy, it's pride."
You know, in all seriousness, I wonder if this might make an interesting discussion topic. The justification of pride, that is.
Posted by LargeTuna (Member # 10512) on :
what if in groups I'm humble and kind and well, put other people first just in general presence. But one on one I'm brutally honest and let people know (not always in words) that I think of myself as better than them, because I just have a super high self esteem. And one on one if I'm dissappointed with one of my friends I let them know.
Cause this is what I do, and I definately don't feel arrogant. I feel good about myself. But occasionally people get really frustrated with my attitude. And calling me arrogant because supposedly I'm only really nice to people to make myself think I'm better and then be arrogant!
I just like being good to people in public and making sure I don't put them down in front of anyone who may overhear any criticisms.
/end rant
*guess this post is kind of useless, but I've had some strange conversations lately *
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: I do agree with kat. But your brother expressing his distaste with the way another carries himself doesn't necessarily mean he has a problem. You don't have to feel inferior or intimidated by his arrogance to know you find his behavior off-putting.
If someone expresses their distaste with bigotry or willful ignorance or violent behavior, do you think "Looks like you're the one with the problem" is an appropriate response?
Hmmm, actually no I don't think that is an appropriate response in such situations. Good point. In fact, to express distaste to bigotry or willful ignorance or violent behavior I usually esteem as honorable.
Thinking back to the situation, I do recall my brother saying he hated PEOPLE like that, not the behavior. But I know my brother, and he was in high school, and he most likely didn't mean he hated the person. He was reacting to the behavior.
There is also more back-story that I should mention. My brother himself was (and sometimes still is) quite arrogant. He was always certain that he was the best, that his solutions were the only valid ones, and that most other people were incompetent. He did not like being threatened/challenged by others with similar "confidence". Considering this and looking back, the comment "Looks like you're the one with the problem" had to do with my brother's own arrogance, not with his moral opprobrium of the behavior.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
I think this post has everything to do with security and insecurity.
If someone is irked by confidence, one possible cause for the irking is insecurity - which has already been pointed out. It's worth introspection and rising above.
However, it could be possible that the person being clever and arrogant is the insecure one. Many intellectuals, or just people with above-average intelligence, are below-average in other areas. They therefore try to fill the humorous and witty niche by being condescending and my speaking in ways that are meant to illicit a reaction from other people to fulfill this need.
I try to mock people like that - I don't really care about proper grammar in proper conversation, but a lot of my friends are elitist - and so I constantly correct improper usages of who/whom. Usually helps to shrink their ego back to size
But more seriously - a "How to win friends and influence people" approach might be to stroke their ego so that they stop trying so hard. Or, if you're close with the person, to tell them, kindly and gently how they sometimes come off.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't really care about proper grammar in proper conversation, but a lot of my friends are elitist - and so I constantly correct improper usages of who/whom. Usually helps to shrink their ego back to size...
Really? I have to admit that I find this hard to believe. Most of the elitists I know would be relatively unaffected by this strategy.
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
In the context of our friendship, it makes sense. They know I'm playfully poking fun at them. As a stand-alone strategy...not so much.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow:
Omega: In all honest, and I say this kindly, you might consider working on your self confidence. Nobody can make you feel below them.
Yes, you're probably right. My main problem is that, when somebody acts arrogant or tells a bunch of dumb jokes and nobody says anything, I feel that there's "peer pressure" on me to act the same way. On a more primal level, it bugs me when they appear to enchant women by acting like that. (I am sometimes too serious around women on dates, but the people that bug me are ones I wouldn't even strive to act like.)
This is mainly a problem I have with people on the Internet. (It's not necessarily a problem with people who I think are wrong, as in the xkcd cartoon: people who I basically agree with can bug me if they try too hard to be funny, and people who I think are wrong don't really bug me if it's clear we're starting from different assumptions.) Maybe it's just a problem of tone being hard to tell in writing.
An easy solution for me would be to stop going to the sites where people bug me; but I do learn things at the sites in question, and I think it would be immature of me to stop reading a site just because some people on it are a little annoying.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I only try to be arrogant when I drive and the other person can't hear me. That way I can put them down and call them names without them even knowing. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm arrogant a large proportion of the time. It works for me on many, many levels. I was told just last weekend that I have a Kramer entrance - not that I'm loud or dramatic, but that when I walk in a room it is an entrance. This isn't always true of me, but it is true of me when I'm happy. If my swagger is gone, it means I'm miserable and just trying to get through things.
But I mean what I said above. My swagger doesn't take anything away from other people. I don't consider it a zero sum game.
For what's annoying, in real life I get really irritated with insecurity. That kind of thing feels way needier to me, like I'm supposed to prop someone up. I want to tell them to prop themselves up and stop laying out a guilt trip in order to be the center of attention. It's just as presumptious, but offers less in return.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: Samprimary went offroad and did backflips and landed on back wheels but kept going too
Ravenholm with a sign underneath it saying 'u sudn't come here'
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: For what's annoying, in real life I get really irritated with insecurity. That kind of thing feels way needier to me, like I'm supposed to prop someone up. I want to tell them to prop themselves up and stop laying out a guilt trip in order to be the center of attention. It's just as presumptious, but offers less in return.
I relate to this. I used to be really sensitive towards people's insecurities in high school. Now, it drives me insane. Especially because you aren't going to be secure by using me a reservoir of strength for your self esteem. Until you have an internal sense of self, you're always gonna be dependent and insecure - So I feel like I don't want to feed into that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Exactly.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
I find arrogance to be just as off-putting--and just as needy--as aggressive insecurity. In fact (to riff of off Bierce), arrogance is just insecurity at the top of one's voice.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Omega: I used to be a professional dating coach, so I can give you a couple tips. Confidence is very attractive. Insecure people often try to appear confident by being arrogant or insulting or aggressive. Those things require outside validation, they're attention seeking, which is why they can be obnoxious if you don't want to give them attention.
What you want to do, an I know this isn't like flipping a switch, is to develop self confidence. Become very competant at something. Learn to appreciate your strengths. Realize that you don't need outside validation to know that you are valuable.
Real confidence shows in your attitude, and it will beat out loud insecurity in the guise of arrogance or rudeness or passive aggressive behavior.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
If you can't stand insecurity in people, are you really that confident yourself? I always find that the things I have the least patience with in someone else are the things I'm the weakest in myself.
I would think a truly confident person wouldn't be fazed much by an insecure person. In fact, in my experience, confident people tend to rise to the lead among insecure people, rather than being repelled by them.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think some arrogance emerges out of neediness. People who need to be acknowledged as funny/clever the whole time sound uncertain to me, rather than arrogant. In that case, the best thing you can do acknowledge them when they truly are funny/interesting, and ignore them when they are not.
I'm sometimes judged as arrogant by acquaintences, and the people who do so are not entirely wrong all the time. But that doesn't mean that I'm also not insecure-- often about precisely the same things about which I exhibit arrogance.
I think that true confidence, the kind that serves you best, comes out of an acceptance and understanding of uncertainty and risk. If you can face an uncertain situation with the acceptance that you may make mistakes or that you may fail entirely (and you have the will to attempt to avoid failure)-- and yet you have the strategies and the will to forge on nevertheless-- you are truly confident.
I've often done poorly in interviews because I have been too confident and I have spoken my mind rather than giving carefully thought out interview answers. That's arrogance.
Good science, I feel, is like this. When it comes to cutting edge theory, all scientists must work carefully and confidently, in the knowledge that the strategies they have are good and time tested ones. Yet at the same time, they must acknowledge the possibility that their theory may be flawed or that the science they are undertaking may not end in immediately useful results.
quote:I recall in early high school walking through the mall with a group including my brother. Looking across the walkway at a stranger who was exhibiting arrogance, my brother became indignant: "Look at that guy. I hate people like that."
Then someone in our group replied to my brother, "Looks like you're the one with the problem."
I disagree that being repelled by arrogance is a fault. Some arrogance is harmful and some harmful arrogance is preceded by swagger. I think swagger is utterly unnecessary. Confidence, sure. Command a room, sure. Swagger? No.
I've just been watching Star Trek TNG and I'm thinking of Jean-Luc Picard's command of a room. He couldn't be said to swagger and yet he exhibited supreme confidence. He, I would say, is aware of the risks and uncertainties, yet has the confidence to walk onto the bridge of the Enterprise and make decisions.
I think exhibiting arrogance through actions or through swagger is a deliberate attempt to diminish others in the room. I don't think that's what we should do.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
I think I'm seeing a whole lot of different definitions of "arrogance", "insecurity", and even "swagger" used in this thread.
I do agree that it makes a lot of sense to see about changing yourself if something outside your control is bugging you.
But it's definitely hard, and there's no great sin in having an opinion about someone else's behavior. Spend as much energy fixing the annoyance as it is worth.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots: If you can't stand insecurity in people, are you really that confident yourself? I always find that the things I have the least patience with in someone else are the things I'm the weakest in myself.
I would think a truly confident person wouldn't be fazed much by an insecure person. In fact, in my experience, confident people tend to rise to the lead among insecure people, rather than being repelled by them.
I tend to agree.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
If all else fails, just tell arrogant people that they smell funny.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't shun blatantly insecure people, but I don't like to be close friends with them. Way too high maintenance. People who need that much propping up tend to be really exhausting and kind of self-centered, because they demand so much attention they don't have much to give back.
I suspect most/all people are a little insecure. At least the ones who deal with it by brimming with self confidence are self-sustaining.
[ July 19, 2010, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Armoth (Member # 4752) on :
Yea. It's not that simple. You can't just "rise to the leadership positions" amongst the insecure. I mean, you can, but the issue here is neediness. i think in high school that's the exact position I was in. Leader of my friends. But it gets frustrating when people whom you care about are in an endless loop of insecurity and the way they try to get out of it is by YOU propping them up. As mentioned above, that never works because they are basing their self esteem externally.
5, 10 years later and some of my friends are still in those same awful and unhealthy positions. It' sad. Rising to leadership in these situations sometimes hurts more than it helps.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: If all else fails, just tell arrogant people that they smell funny.
Or, "... uh, I'm sorry. Fuzzed out there for a bit. What were you saying?" This is especially effective when the person's voice has been raised.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
My avatar in most forums is a squirtle with sunglasses on, y'know, the captain of the squirtle squad, so whenever someone says something arrogant and kind of stupid I'm like "squirtle?"
Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
I used to get upset about people's arrogance, especially since it was often ill-advised, given their many shortcomings. But I began to simply treat such people with compassion and respect, and I found that most of them immediately toned down their arrogance in response to my desire for collaboration and dialectic.
I would never be able to reach the ones who don't respond to this sort of approach anyway, so I simply leave them to their own devices.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I was really helped in this, and most other areas of conflict in my life, by the book The Anatomy of Peace.
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