You know, Kurtzman and Orci might actually do this thing right. They sure know how to delve into the grey areas of morality in fascinating ways. They can write a weird, screwed up family dynamic and make you care for the characters. They can write really funny lines.
And they also blow stuff up in really pretty ways.
If it wasn't, you know, the Ender's Game movie (and therefore doomed), I could almost see this working out.
Maybe Haley Joel Osment could play Mazer. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
That article's characterization of Ender feels really off. Words like "violent," "dangerous," and "ruthless," while technically true, paint him with an odd brush that would leave first time readers confused.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Wait...they wrote the Transformers scripts? Well frick. This is quite disappointing.
Can we please just have a Scifi miniseries?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
PSI, I was thinking the same thing. They were using words that seemed technically accurate while at the same time completely mis-characterizing Ender and the book.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: Wait...they wrote the Transformers scripts? Well frick. This is quite disappointing.
The movies might have been better if Michael Bay wasn't invol-***EXPLOSION!***.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: Wait...they wrote the Transformers scripts? Well frick. This is quite disappointing.
The movies might have been better if Michael Bay wasn't invol-***EXPLOSION!***.
anyway i eagerly anticipate this actually working, much like i am sure that this is the year xenu returns and rewards all good scientologists with candy.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
I'm taking this with a grain of salt.
OSC wrote in a recent Reviews Everything column (I think it was the Dawn Treader one) where he said he would be happy if the Ender's Game script at least contained the occasional line of dialogue from the novel, and in a recent interview he said that if this attempt at an Ender's Game movie doesn't work out he's bagging the whole project. This may imply that he has become skeptical about whether this will really work out. He also mentioned in his recent 2010 films column that some terrible movies that get made make him think "these abominations get approved, funded, and made and I can't get a quality adaptation of Ender's Game?" It may be Kurtzman and Orci's script that OSC was thinking about when complaining about the lack of lines from the novel.
I, as much as anyone, would love to see a good Ender's Game movie. If it turns out that this is the big break and a quality film really does get made, I will be a very happy man. Until then, I'll resume my life putting such vain hopes out of my mind so that I can remain functioning happily.
Really, there are several OSC books that would work much better on film than Ender's Game, but that doesn't mean the EG project should automatically be scrapped. I'd personally like to see an Enchantment movie, which is very filmable if you hand-wave the language barriers.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I'm remembering my sister talking about seeing footage of the auditions for The Phantom Menace and saying, in essence, that while the kid they picked to play Vader was gawd-awful, he was actually one of the better options of the offerings.
*shudder*
The pedigree of the scriptwriters does not inspire heaps of confidence. The idea of EG finally coming to the screen as a action-packed, standardized script is more than a little heart-rending.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
EG should be an anime, it'ld be able to be done with a vastly lower budget (and thus higher profit from theaters and thus looks healthier to producers and thus greater chance of sequels because lets face it unless its a blockbuster hit its not getting any).
And you could get older actors do the voices of the children and loosen up what would otherwise be a fairly difficult restriction.
At the very least you would have a guaranteed audience in the states from both EG fans and NA Otaku's AND you'ld be a hit in Japan.
Someone for the love of god tweet back to them "Please do not suck."
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Oh and Ender doesn't need softening, the simple fact is bullying from a childs perspective is a very tramauting experience, all they need is the Stilsen and Bonzo scenes to have enough emotion behind them from both 'cameras' and Ender's perspective so that the audience, especially those in it whove been bullied before can sympathize with ender.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be "anime" rather than just "animated" (dunno what precise definition you're assigning the word) but I agree with the sentiment.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be "anime" rather than just "animated" (dunno what precise definition you're assigning the word) but I agree with the sentiment.
I would say either Akira or Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (Season one for the love of god, season 2 went a different route) or Infinite Ryvius animation art style.
Akira and Ryvius were "dark" I don't know the precise term but the background you draw on is black instead of white, same thing with Batman and Batman Beyond, Haruhi is "bright" but then again being a space station and significant out door scenes in bright summer day it might make more sense that way.
Posted by Herblay (Member # 11834) on :
Gosh, stop the animation train. Nobody would watch the dang thing.
Forget Michael Bay's monstrosity. These are the guys who brought us the new Star Trek, Mission Impossible III, and Fringe. I say, bring it on (my only concern is the director -- Wolverine was BAD).
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Don't stop the animation train. You could probably get a legitimately better product out of it animated, since you aren't confined to the performance output of a slew of young child actors who have to take up most of the major roles.
Which, I'm sorry, simply isn't happening unless the planets align in some unforeseen way.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
They probably are if we agreed on something.
The advantages are: -Cheaper to produce; and thus far more attractive to producers who look at Ender's Game and find it risky. --As a corollary if its cheaper and does "really well" it is far more likely to be green lit for sequels or an expansion of the visual franchise, mini-series, ova's, maybe a tv series. -Has a gauranteed audience from both EG fans and anime fans of which there is probably strong overlap; and thus will also do well overseas in Japan or Taiwan and Singapore. -not limited to so-so quality child actors, older actors who are skilled at sounding young or female older actors can do the job and bring about a more 'natural' sounding performance. -Far more likely OSC could retain significant creative control over the final produce and animation allows for a significant higher chance of it remaining true to the books. --for example EG and ES uses alot of "inner monologues" as a narrative tool that I've only ever seen properly done in animation and rarely done in live action well (Dune miniseries?).
There is just about every reason for it with the only reasons against being the quickly eroding institution bias against animation in mainstream US mindset regarding "cartoons as childrens things".
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote: There is just about every reason for it with the only reasons against being the quickly eroding institution bias against animation in mainstream US mindset regarding "cartoons as childrens things".
Or maybe most people just prefer live action. Period.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
It's true. As an animated movie, it will likely have a harder sell and a smaller audience.
This is, however, a hypothetically smaller audience in a hypothetical competition between a live action EG and an animated EG which are of equal overall artistic quality. The reason why EG would probably do better as an animated product is because it's nearly impossible to avoid the issue of EG's cast of young children. you could make a throwaway tentpole with children, but you're not getting memorable results working with that large of a child cast. Sorry.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I actually think it should be anmated, but not anime, specifically because I know a lot of people with a bit of an aversion to anime. I think that aversion is irrational, but there's a pretty clear divide between people who like it and people who don't. It signals some particular brands of geekiness that frighten the general population.(This trend may be reversed in asia, not sure how the overall finances work out there).
[ January 30, 2011, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I actually think it should be anmated, but not anime, specifically because I know a lot of people with a bit of an aversion to anime. I think that aversion is irrational, but there's a pretty clear divide between people who like it and people who don't. It signals some particular brands of geekiness that frighten the general population.
Thats what having a competent trailer.
Also;
Word of Mouth.
Lots of extended previews.
A good media advertisement.
Ponyo did well in theaters didn't it? As well as Halo: Legends? (Direct to DVD but whatever)
We're already dealing with a franchise that has Asperger afflicted prepubescents fighting an interstellar war via videogames I think we are well way past the geekiness threshold event horizon and into the geekiness singularity.
The US audience will never shake off its aversion unless we manage to KEEP throwing food quality animated movies at them and EG would be a good pick.
The people who already like Ender's Game aren't gonna NOT see the movie if it happens to be animesque.
Did these hypothetical people ever watch Avatar The Last Airbender? If they did then they already have watched anime!
Besides what are you attributing as 'anime' art style wise here that would instantly turn people off? Pokemon? I could bet you show a death note trailer to them they probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and Justice League.
There's an even clearer better solution here, use anime, that is probably superior art styles to choose from to tell this kind of story but then in the trailers or PVs don't call it an anime just say animated brought to you by Disney and Studio Gonzo and Studio 17Celsius and I could bet you almost anything that if they do not see any of the typical anime cliches like 'sweet drops' etc then they wouldn't be able to tell.
The people with a typical aversion to anime do so because of bad voice acting and animation cliche's exclusive to cruddier or humourful/whimsical productions that if you remove that and use a more mature artstyle they won't be able to tell, I could bet anything.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I wonder how much of my opinion here is based on weird marketing things as opposed to the the actual qualities of anime itself. For example, I saw the trailer for Appleseed on apple.com, and thought it was really cool. But I don't think it ever showed up in mainstream theaters, so I never ended up watching it. If Ender's Game was actually marketed aggressively in America, it'd probably do well whatever it's animation style.
>Did these hypothetical people ever watch Avatar The Last Airbender? If they did then they already have watched anime!
While I think your argument is valid, it's worth noting that there are substantial differences between a lot of anime and Avatar. After watching Avatar, I thought "hey, maybe now I should try to watch all these good anime shows I keep hearing about," but what I found is that there are some fundamental differences between the way Japan tells stories and the way America does. Some of these are minor visual cues (for example, using "nosebleed" to indicate lust). A more substantial one is the way the characters tend to narrate everything as they're doing it. A friend of mine tried to get to watch some show about a sniper, and the way the characters spoke just sounded so weird (we were watching with subtitles). It went against everything I can had been taught about "show don't tell," which is commonly accepted in American cinema.
I fully enjoy Miyazaki movies (partly they have good voice acting, partly they just seem structured in a way that's closer to American sensibilities), but I've never been able to get into the anime TV shows, even ones with plots I knew were interesting, because the choices were between bad voice acting and weird foreign dialogue that wasn't *wrong* but just sounded strange because of cultural differences.
This wouldn't be inherently problematic with an Ender's Game adaptation if it was made in America, but people might still associate the visual style with the cultural language gap.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I would rather see a great animated version of EG than a watered down live action version.
I'm not holding out much hope for it though. The only animated thing I'm looking forward to any time soon is the next Avatar show.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Arnold I have two links which are now officially required reading for you:
The 'nosebleed' thing is a trope associated with only some anime, usually shonen it's supposed to be a way of 'getting crap past the radar' but specifically was for animes specifically targeted at teenagers (ie their version of saturday morning cartoons), it dissapears and completely vanishes and 90% of any other demographic.
quote: It went against everything I can had been taught about "show don't tell," which is commonly accepted in American cinema.
Show not tell is "people walking the talk" right? 90% of anime actually does this afaik, so you probably just lucked out and missed it there with a small sample size.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
While a part of me would LOVE to see Ender and a battle room scene on the big screen, I really REALLY hope this movie never gets made. An animated version or a mini series I might be able to deal with, but I just can't see a live action Hollywood version working.
Personally, I thought Hollywood destroyed "Voyage of the Dawn Treader" (though I realize others feel differently) and have no wish to see them destroy any more stories by forcing them into an ultra condensed version just to get it on screen.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Oh, here's the quote from the goodreads interview...
"OSC: I have written screenplays in which I solved most of the serious problems that Ender's Game poses to the screenwriter. Unfortunately, not one of the screenwriters who has been hired has shown the slightest sign of learning anything from my screenplays. In fact, I would be relieved if one of them would simply include an occasional scene from the book, so I can see some evidence that they've read it. I will be bitterly disappointed if a movie version comes out in which Ender Wiggin shows no spark of leadership, no evidence of why other people put their faith in him. I still have hope that we'll get a decent movie out of the current team. But I'll tell you this: I would rather have no movie than a bad one. And if this attempt doesn't come up with a script that is both good and Ender's Game, I'm shelving it for the rest of my life. I've given this time-sucking project too many years of my life already. I have a dozen novels that can be adapted far more easily to the screen than Ender's Game, and I'll put my movie-developing time into them."
Since that was just published this month, I have a feeling that he is seeing the same problem in the new screenwriters portrayals of Ender that many of you saw in the article.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I think Don Bluth, and his animators could do fantastic things with Ender's Game. Sure their last major movie was Titan AE, but I'm convinced with source material like Ender's Game, it would be brilliant.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'd obviously go see any (legitimate) Ender's Game movie, but I'd be severely disappointed if it was anime. I'm hardly an expert on the field, (I don't like, why would I be?) but I find it very hard, if not impossible, to connect to the story or characters of an anime movie. Some of the more stylistic ones like Spirited Away (I'm told that's anime) I can appreciate for their art, but I never can connect. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on this either, I find it hard to believe an anime version would be a big market movie. I also find it hard to believe a studio would see a very visual, sci-fi story like Ender's Game and not think of a heavily CGI (or entirely CGI animated) movie.
Hobbes Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I think Don Bluth, and his animators could do fantastic things with Ender's Game. Sure their last major movie was Titan AE, but I'm convinced with source material like Ender's Game, it would be brilliant.
Speaking of Bluth, I watched The Land Before Time earlier today. Hadn't seen it in nearly twenty years. It sure brought back a lot of childhood memories.
Anyway. Carry on. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I'd obviously go see any (legitimate) Ender's Game movie, but I'd be severely disappointed if it was anime. I'm hardly an expert on the field, (I don't like, why would I be?) but I find it very hard, if not impossible, to connect to the story or characters of an anime movie. Some of the more stylistic ones like Spirited Away (I'm told that's anime) I can appreciate for their art, but I never can connect. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on this either, I find it hard to believe an anime version would be a big market movie. I also find it hard to believe a studio would see a very visual, sci-fi story like Ender's Game and not think of a heavily CGI (or entirely CGI animated) movie.
Hobbes
The problem here is specifically specific to Spirited Away and not to Anime as an animation style, Spirited Away is still very much a window into Japanese culture and almost certainly character values that reasonate more with Japanese viewers, but this isn't a problem that would happen with Ender's Game as if directed and produced by American writers and only animated via outsourcing you are going to have an easy time connecting.
If you connected to the characters in the novels you should have no problem connecting with an anime version as it could very likely be 99% true to the books.
Download and give Halo: Legends a look, should give you a good idea of American produced anime could be like in like half a dozen different styles.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I've seen enough Anime to know I don't like it. It's not a moral judgement, it's just not for me. When I see it I can't see the people on screen as people, only as drawings.
Hobbes Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
If, say, Peter Cheung were to direct an Ender's Game movie, I'd certainly be tempted to give it a look.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I'd obviously go see any (legitimate) Ender's Game movie, but I'd be severely disappointed if it was anime. I'm hardly an expert on the field, (I don't like, why would I be?) but I find it very hard, if not impossible, to connect to the story or characters of an anime movie. Some of the more stylistic ones like Spirited Away (I'm told that's anime) I can appreciate for their art, but I never can connect. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone on this either, I find it hard to believe an anime version would be a big market movie. I also find it hard to believe a studio would see a very visual, sci-fi story like Ender's Game and not think of a heavily CGI (or entirely CGI animated) movie.
Hobbes
I tend to feel very similarly. It's not that I can't connect to any anime. I adored Hikaru no Go, and have watched it several times. Grave of the Fireflies made me cry. But these titles are in the minority. Just as often I have watched the first several episodes of an anime . . . and then just sort of trailed off because I didn't really care about the characters or the plot. And these are good shows, ones that everybody loves and recommends. Like Avatar or Fullmetal Alchemist.
Then there are shows like Nodame Cantabile. I enjoyed the anime, enough to watch it all the way through, anyway. It's a romantic comedy about two music students, but I just couldn't see what she brought to the relationship. It seemed like he was doing everything for her, and she wasn't doing a thing for him. Then I discovered there was a live action version. Watching it, I suddenly got it. I could see that he was drowning in despair and self loathing, and that she pulled him out of it. The relationship worked. The live action is actually more over the top and cartoony than the anime, but somehow it spoke to me when the anime didn't. I fell in love with the show and have become mildly obsessed with it.
So while you all make good points for Ender's Game to be animated, I personally would prefer live action.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
There's a visceral quality in Ender's Game, reflected in Ender's experiences of exhaustion, physical depletion, etc, that wouldn't really transfer well to animation. Anime uses distorted and exaggerated physics and images of human suffering *specifically* to overcome this shortcoming. That's what a lot of anime fans don't get about why it isn't more popular in America. It has serious shortcomings that, while they can be overcome in interesting ways, and while they in fact challenge their writers to innovate interestingly in terms of dialogue and story as well as art, still place it below the register of live action film in terms of visceral experiential quality. I suspect that's exactly *why* it's so popular among geeks in America, and so popular among the general public in Japan. There is some common ground there. But anime fans should keep in mind that there are more reasons than snobbish rejection that many people don't take to the genre.
And specifically to Ender's Game, a great deal of the strength of the story is the focus on actual relatable human suffering- and a strong sense of humanity v. the otherness of the buggers- the reality of private conversations, the battle room, and physical fatigue v. the unreality of aliens and combat light years away in space. If you transpose everything onto a two dimensional plane of animation where all the images have the same register of reality- sp that everything, the mindgame, Ender's dreams, the battle simulations, the propaganda vids, and the physical fights looks like everything else, then there is no shading of reality as represented in the novel. The dreams will feel as fake as the game- the simulation as fake as the battle room. The sunshine on Ender's face on the lake will be meaningless, because animation of a space station environment and animation of a lake on Earth are not going to be that different- whereas in live action, you just *feel* the difference, you don't need to be shown that it is different. That's why a film lasts for a few hours, and a book for hundreds of pages- it takes that much longer to create the reality in a novel, but a film doesn't have that kind of time. This, btw, being the same reason that Anime series lend themselves to length as well- their weaknesses become strengths over time, where a film story would exhaust its audience at such lengths.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
That was very well said, Orincoro.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Orincoro: While I agree with some of the things you said about animation versus live action and how that would apply to Ender's Game, I have to point out that you've made a lot of assumptions here about the nature of anime and it's meaning to the Japanese people without, apparently, having a very firm grasp of the culture in question. For example, the reason anime series tend to be long and drawn out is because most of them are based on source material that is long and drawn out. I'm referring to the weekly serialized comic, a medium that is frequently encouraged by the editors and distributors to amble aimlessly, picking up and dropping plot lines with no other goal than to grab the most [teenage/young adult] readers each week and meet arbitrary (to the general public) sales numbers.
And, while anime is very popular among the general Japanese public, your reason as to why you think that might be true seems to miss the fact that the Japanese also have a rich live-action genre that is equally popular, if not more so. If you ask the average Japanese person what the greatest film of all time is, you're far more likely to hear "Rashamon" or "Tampopo" over a Miyazaki anime.
It probably seems like a minor quibble that only barely relates to the topic at hand, and I know I'm coming off like an otaku-to-the-extreme here, but I cringe a little whenever I see someone jump to point out "why" certain people value the things they do based on information that seems, to me, to have been analyzed and typed up on the fly. The Japanese are reserved in social situations, it's true, but they still value raw emotion and the visceral experience. One only has to watch a well-loved samurai movie to grasp this.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
The EG movie OSC wants is never getting made. He's not nearly powerful or famous enough to power through his own script (nor does he have the necessary writing credits for a big studio to just take his script and run with it), and his insistence on not aging the main characters to a more relatable (and, much more importantly, castable) age* is a deal-breaker. I'd like to say it's just obstinance on his part, but I really can't blame him for not wanting Hollywood to **** up his most famous work.
Now I'm looking into my future at me saying the sentence, "Well, it sucks OSC died, but at least now we may get an EG movie."
*Again, not saying I blame him. But there's no question he's been the one digging in his heels on certain areas for over a decade now.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I say do a mini series about Mazer, and if it goes over well greenlight a full series based on Ender's Game. Have it be a mash up of Ender's Shadow and Ender's Game. The first season could end where the book did (You could probably do two seasons actually) Then you could continue on with Speaker and do a spinoff with Bean.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: There's a visceral quality in Ender's Game, reflected in Ender's experiences of exhaustion, physical depletion, etc, that wouldn't really transfer well to animation. Anime uses distorted and exaggerated physics and images of human suffering *specifically* to overcome this shortcoming. That's what a lot of anime fans don't get about why it isn't more popular in America. It has serious shortcomings that, while they can be overcome in interesting ways, and while they in fact challenge their writers to innovate interestingly in terms of dialogue and story as well as art, still place it below the register of live action film in terms of visceral experiential quality. I suspect that's exactly *why* it's so popular among geeks in America, and so popular among the general public in Japan. There is some common ground there. But anime fans should keep in mind that there are more reasons than snobbish rejection that many people don't take to the genre.
And specifically to Ender's Game, a great deal of the strength of the story is the focus on actual relatable human suffering- and a strong sense of humanity v. the otherness of the buggers- the reality of private conversations, the battle room, and physical fatigue v. the unreality of aliens and combat light years away in space. If you transpose everything onto a two dimensional plane of animation where all the images have the same register of reality- sp that everything, the mindgame, Ender's dreams, the battle simulations, the propaganda vids, and the physical fights looks like everything else, then there is no shading of reality as represented in the novel. The dreams will feel as fake as the game- the simulation as fake as the battle room. The sunshine on Ender's face on the lake will be meaningless, because animation of a space station environment and animation of a lake on Earth are not going to be that different- whereas in live action, you just *feel* the difference, you don't need to be shown that it is different. That's why a film lasts for a few hours, and a book for hundreds of pages- it takes that much longer to create the reality in a novel, but a film doesn't have that kind of time. This, btw, being the same reason that Anime series lend themselves to length as well- their weaknesses become strengths over time, where a film story would exhaust its audience at such lengths.
The entire second wall of text is conclusively disproved by just about anything by Studio Shaft and I'm fairly certain you've never watched more than a few series at most as there are dozens of well received animes that do that job just fine.
And specifically to Ender's Game we've had the first argument before, Ender's Game would trounce a live action movie in this regard because child actors would be incredibly unlikely to show successfully that level of physical exhaustion or emotion as convincingly as animation.
And since studios have been at least partially insisting on changing details like the ethnic makeup of battleschool to reflect the US instead of the world and others details that I thought ridiculous until I saw that they did to Last Airbender that animation gets another massive boost in that it would be easier to reflect the world demographic makeup more ambiguously due to the statelessness of most character designs.
Cuz' hey, all a character needs to do to make a convincing claimt to being Petra in my eyes is slightly darker skin and claim to be Armenian and I'm content.
As specific examples of human suffering and balls to the walls mind effery we have Neon Genesis Evangelion hands down in that category, Infinite Ryvius captures the exhaustion of a crew of child cadets phenomenally well, and just about anything by Shaft does the whole reality warping mind buggery thing hands down, they are masters at it.
Also the average anime series is 12-13 episodes in length (of 20 minutes of length) and most of the best quality shows are that length, only about a dozen to my mind are 100+, most are 26 epsides, and more than a few have been shortened into compilation movies like NGE or Gurren Lagann.
And there's "plenty" of movie length ones as well.
Also, many scifi anime's use well blended CGI as needed, anime has no weaknesses when it comes to showing different shades of reality, like for example Bakemonogatari and Vanishment of Haruhi Suzumiya that do it subtly and then there's Puella Mahou Madoka Magica that hits you with a break with it but still well blended.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Blayne, I hate to play this card -- but as someone with Asperger's, you may want to concede that you do not necessarily perceive the human emotions of others (as reflected on faces) in the same way that "normal" people do. While cartoons might appear to you to sacrifice little emotional depth, you might consider that someone without your difficulties could see it another way.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
Blayne,
I think that you're overestimating the number of people that would watch it as an anime. You stated that Ponyo did well at the box office . . . it made $15M with large distribution by Disney. That's terrible. And there's no way that EG could beat Miyazaki's biggest release to date.
Even a bad EG live-action movie would be better than a movie that nobody (meaning the general public, not just the tiny cross-section of anime fans) would see. At least it'll get some kids to read the book.
[ January 31, 2011, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Aros ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Possibly, but I can tell the difference between "good" emotional depth and fairly wooden depth, or episode 12 of Katanagatari (you could really feel Shichika's grief) versus the entirety of Starship Operators (got to be the most unmotivated unpatriotic group of freedom fighters ever, of all time).
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aros: Blaine,
I think that you're overestimating the number of people that would watch it as an anime. You stated that Ponyo did well at the box office . . . it made $15M with large distribution by Disney. That's terrible. And there's no way that EG could beat Miyazaki's biggest release to date.
Even a bad EG live-action movie would be better than a movie that nobody (meaning the general public, not just the tiny cross-section of anime fans) would see. At least it'll get some kids to read the book.
B.l.a.y.n.e...
The thing is a Live Action EG isn't likely to have that much of an audience either and be vastly more expensive, at best it can hope for the base EG fans and scifi fans +15% of people who go by good movie reviews assuming its "good" if its not good those numbers probably fall by 30% as word of mouth discourages people from seeing it and because its more expensive either a failure or a mediocre break even showing would probably kill the franchise in terms of finding a visual medium.
An anime would still get the same audience, scifi geeks, EG fans +15% because by being true to the book it would be "good" maybe some more if Ebert likes it and if people still listen to Ebert anymore and because it is vastly cheaper the bottom line will look that much better.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
I apologize for the spelling mistake, but I'd disagree wholeheartedly.
If Kurtzman and Orci get a studio to sign on, it'll get large distribtuion and in all likelihood blow past Ponyo's measly $15M in the opening weekend. They write mainstream.
You refer to Ebert -- unless the anime were done by Miyazaki himself, Ebert won't even see it. Nor will it be released in theaters. Are you really arguing that direct-to-dvd ala Halo would "still get the same audience" as an honest-to-goodness Hollywood release?
I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with anime. My only point is that people who watch anything other than Miyazaki are in a VERY small minority. Heck, people that watch Miyazaki are in a VERY small minority (at least in America). My family are all big fans, and we saw Ponyo on the opening weekend. There were two other people in the theater.
Yes, there's a dang good chance that an anime version would be vastly better -- but what does it matter if no one watches it? I'm all for an HBO (or Showtime) big budget series, if we really want to talk about the best medium.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Here is the way I see it. In the US, animated movies don't make a lot of money in the cinema unless they are put out by Disney, Pixar, or Dreamworks. The movies are heavily marketed and released as family movies.
Miyazaki has been the only one that that has really been able to bring a foreign animation film to the US and have it perform relatively well. Most of Studio Ghibli's films are aimed towards families or children, but they don't have the same feel as the feel good Disney/Pixar films. The films often deal with issues in brutal ways.
Kiki's Delivery Service, My Neighbor Totoro, Ponyo, and the Cat Returns are all kid friendly movies. I'd have no problem showing these movies to little kids. Ponyo was really the only one released here in the US.
I wouldn't let little kids watch Princess Mononoke or Spirited Away. They are too creepy, violent, or bloody for kids.
Princess Mononoke was released in 1999 on only 120-130 screens and grossed $2.3 million in the time it was available in the theaters.
Spirited Away was released in 2002 on 714 screens and made $10 million or so. It won an Oscar for Best Animated Feature over Ice Age and Lilo and Stitch, Both of which made over $140 million each.
It isn't that Miyazaki's films aren't good. Everything his studio releases is gold. The problem is that the average American doesn't know how good the films are. They stick with the studios whose films they grew up watching. Disney / Pixar could produce a film that is utter crap, and it would still gross over $100 million.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: I wouldn't let little kids watch Princess Mononoke or Spirited Away. They are too creepy, violent, or bloody for kids.
Would you let kids be exposed to fairy tales?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I would never watch it as an anime. Every anime I've seen, with the only exception of Grave of the Fireflies, has been boring. A few have been mildly interesting, but then: boring. I hate the stylized depictions, the pace, the cutting, and the (accidental? worse!) surrealism, and putting the very visceral, weary, and American Ender's Game into such an offputting format would be dreadful. The last thing the Ender's Game movie needs is 20 minutes of walking through hallways.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
YMMV, you maybe just need to watch more Tear Jerker ones then, like Angel Beats or Wandering Son (story of a girl who wants to be a boy and a boy who wants to be a girl, its on CrunchyRoll go see it).
I don't really see how it matters if you wouldn't see it or not; I would watch it either way if you consider yourself a fan and the anime is for all intents and purposes true to the books I think you owe it to OSC to see it, if you bought the book, whats the difference from buyng a movie ticket or watching it when it comes to DVD?
Your not very constructive so I hardly see how it matters.
quote: If Kurtzman and Orci get a studio to sign on, it'll get large distribtuion and in all likelihood blow past Ponyo's measly $15M in the opening weekend. They write mainstream.
My impression of Hollywood movies might have been incorrect on this point but I'm looking at whats more likely to secure sequels, and for example the Political Game of Risk that the Shadow Books go into is something I've only ever seen well done in anime.
Like Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I think the popular argument here Blayne is that animation of any degree cant attract the empathy of some of our favorite dramatic actors and actresses. We all have such a strong connection to Enders Game and like OSC have a grandiose vision of just what a film adaptation should be and it doesnt seem like animation can emotionally perform at the level we would all like.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Didn't Ponyo have a large all star cast? Matt Damon, Liam Neelson etc?
Posted by Pepek (Member # 3773) on :
I'd see it. I'd probably like it a lot too.
I'm not expecting to see the book on screen.
it would just be another reflection/interpretation of something I love dearly.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Didn't Ponyo have a large all star cast? Matt Damon, Liam Neelson etc?
Sorry for not being precise, thier exact faces are what can really change how one feels about a scene. I listened to one film-makers review of The Kings Speech and he gushed about Helena Bonham Carters ever so slight facial expression making the movie for him.
As much as I am a fan of anime and how well they do things that cant logistically be done otherwise a drawing cant make me feel an intended emotion like Ben Foster in Alpha Dog or Christian Bale in The Machinist.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: And specifically to Ender's Game we've had the first argument before, Ender's Game would trounce a live action movie in this regard because child actors would be incredibly unlikely to show successfully that level of physical exhaustion or emotion as convincingly as animation.
Well, this is why I'm actually convinced it *can't* be made into a decent film at all. Animation, no matter who is making it, has the drawbacks I discussed. It just *does.* You look at a drawing and you know it's a drawing. If you want the full dexterity for expressing shades realness, which is important in this particular story, you have to draw on imagery all the way from photorealism to crude childish animation. I am not in the least sanguine about the prospect of animation of any kind doing this better than live action. And live action requires a feat of acting (not to mention timing issues for this story), that I think is unreasonable to expect.
quote:I don't think you know what you are talking about.
I assure you that I know what *I* am talking about. But we're not having the conversation you think we are.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
quote: There's a visceral quality in Ender's Game, reflected in Ender's experiences of exhaustion, physical depletion, etc, that wouldn't really transfer well to animation.
NGE and Infinite Ryvius did this just fine.
quote: Anime uses distorted and exaggerated physics and images of human suffering *specifically* to overcome this shortcoming.
If it overcomes the shortcoming doesn't that imply then that it can do it? You are contradicting yourself.
quote: That's what a lot of anime fans don't get about why it isn't more popular in America.
"What about of X doesn't get" when I highly doubt you've met very many, and even if you did which would be anectdotal at best isn't a convincing argument.
quote: It has serious shortcomings that, while they can be overcome in interesting ways, and while they in fact challenge their writers to innovate interestingly in terms of dialogue and story as well as art, still place it below the register of live action film in terms of visceral experiential quality.
Another contradiction you can't have your cake and eat it, if it overcomes this short comings through varyious innovations than how is it below in giving a visceral experience?
quote: I suspect that's exactly *why* it's so popular among geeks in America, and so popular among the general public in Japan. There is some common ground there. But anime fans should keep in mind that there are more reasons than snobbish rejection that many people don't take to the genre.
You don't elaborate here, are you saying that because it is 'subpar' that is why geeks like it? Or are you saying because it innovates in different ways that anime geeks like it? Also strawman, every mature minded Otaku knows not everyone can enjoy anime for varying cultural or technical reasons and to some extant that is a source of pride, 'what good is an expensive hobby if everyone can partake in it?' etc, but not every single person is adamantly convinced it is "only" because of snobbish rejection AND it is also incorrect and inaccurate to simply it plays no part however.
Many of the same arguments regarding anime also find applicibility in video games and snobbish rejection plays just as huge a part there as here.
quote: And specifically to Ender's Game, a great deal of the strength of the story is the focus on actual relatable human suffering-
Anime can handle relate-able human suffering just fine, NGE, Infinite Ryvius, Madoka Magica is heading that direction; I can probably dig up more examples if I think on it.
quote: and a strong sense of humanity v. the otherness of the buggers-
Zettai Karen Children, Blue Drops, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross and many many many others have alien otherness as strong overarching themes.
quote: the reality of private conversations,
Zuh? Do you mean the email transcripts? Watch Gankutsu or any other of the several other dozen animes that use narration during the opening.
quote:the battle room,
Quite a few animes do a good job with zero-g animation, Ryvuys and Starship Operators among them, Planetes as well I'm certain.
quote: and physical fatigue v.
Whether or not you feel that this is a shortcoming that they have to "overcome" doesn't change the fact that they do get that emotion across perfectly fine.
quote: the unreality of aliens and combat light years away in space.
Possibly the greatest strong point of Starship Operators was the fact that it was possibly the most scienfitically accurate 'hard' scifi story out there, no joke, no exaggerations, I was constantly double checking with ProjectRho and it was consistent across the board. Infinite Ryvius does a little bit of this as well but is less focused on it, basically that Starship Operators does is clearly not only says but shows and elaborates on how actually space combat with accurate propulsion systems would day hours if not days to fight, at incredibly long ranges kinda like as if they animated Honor Harrington so the feel of fighting an encredibly far away enemy while hovering over cramped consoles is all there and preserved.
quote: If you transpose everything onto a two dimensional plane of animation where all the images have the same register of reality- sp that everything, the mindgame, Ender's dreams, the battle simulations, the propaganda vids, and the physical fights looks like everything else, then there is no shading of reality as represented in the novel.
And this is squarely where I call bullshit and that you have probably never seen very many animes because this is assuredly wrong, as a good viewing of Gangkutsu (the consensus is that it is the MOST accurate adaption of the Count of Monte Cristo to date aside from Wishbone) would show you, anime can not only do surrealism but also a whole wide range of styles and atmosphere and can do each of the above things differently AND blend them together coherently so there isn't an audible "clunk" in between.
quote:
The dreams will feel as fake as the game- the simulation as fake as the battle room. The sunshine on Ender's face on the lake will be meaningless, because animation of a space station environment and animation of a lake on Earth are not going to be that different- whereas in live action, you just *feel* the difference, you don't need to be shown that it is different.
Just blind bias and ignorance.
quote: That's why a film lasts for a few hours, and a book for hundreds of pages- it takes that much longer to create the reality in a novel, but a film doesn't have that kind of time. This, btw, being the same reason that Anime series lend themselves to length as well- their weaknesses become strengths over time, where a film story would exhaust its audience at such lengths.
And here is where both PSI and I corrected you, the majority of anime is 13 episodes seasons, a good junk is about 26 episode format and only a relatively few are hundred episode long runners.
Also Anime has proven itself perfectly adept at compression, there are dozens of well regarded anime movies out there, the NasuVerse ones spring to mind, then there's the compilation movies which actually compress 13 to 26 episode seasons into theater going length.
Why would an Ender's Game film have to be long? An EG Anime adaption wouldn't be doing *every* book in the series just EG and ES, why would it have to take any longer extra time between one adaption and another?
Can you show and come up with an example of a single scene from the book that would take longer animated than done in live action?
[ January 31, 2011, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Howl's had Bale.
Also, reading through this thread was mildly annoying.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
I made several assertions about anime. They are based entirely in my own opinions. They cannot actually be wrong. You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
ETA: as to your edit. Yes, indeed, we are not having the conversation you think we are having. And now you need to take a step back and calm yourself, and compose your thoughts, and ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing, and whether you really want to be doing it. I will not engage with your blinding nerd rage.
[ January 31, 2011, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Videogame sprites are the most relatable thing ever. I win.
[ January 31, 2011, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You made several assumptions about anime and each one was incorrect, so no you don't know what you are talking about.
I made several assertions about anime. They are based entirely in my own opinions. They cannot actually be wrong. You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
I edited my post to provide more elaboration, but it's clear from this that you are not debating this in good faith once you pull "these are only my opinions so they cannot be proven wrong canard"
There's a difference between opinion "I think gun ownership is a bad idea" and being wrong "guns don't kill people, apes with guns kill people".
Saying "I don't think EG would work as well as an anime" is an opinion, because it includes "think" as in "I don't really have all the information but it is possible I could be proven wrong" what you did was give a list of REASONS in which point it because no longer opinion but an attempt to make an authoritative statement that is based on what you consider and I object to be wrong; factual.
At which point if I go through each one than hell yeas your opinion can be wrong if I can assuredly show them to be incorrect or based on fault assumption.
quote: You can talk about that, you can keep quoting more stock from the genre as if that's meaningful.
And you lose all credibility right here, have a nice day your opinion is not worth the paper it isn't printed on when you can't bring yourself to respect the opinions and experiences of others.
You are clearly not arguing this in good faith.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Again, in case you missed it Blayne, you are way over the line, and I will not engage with you on this. You need to seek the input of other people in order to find out why that is.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Again, in case you missed it Blayne, you are way over the line, and I will not engage with you on this. You need to seek the input of other people in order to find out why that is.
I am not way over line you're just afraid of being proven wrong by me conclusively in a field you clearly have no experience in and trying to turn this somehow into an argument about me is just weak of you.
Where precisely did I cross the line?
quote: I will not engage with your blinding nerd rage.
Herp a derp derp derp.
Once again, you are just being disrespectful and condescending, you do not respect the discussion and at least one other has pointed out that your post sounded analyzed and typed out on the fly, to which I would elaborate as you simply not knowing anything substantiative about the medium.
"Consider the source" and "look at the record" do you actually know what you are talking about? Have many have you seen? What have you seen?
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
Blayne: Your posts are absolutely in a bad place right now. You need to calm down and take a step back.
Orincoro is absolutely entitled to *experience* things the way he does. He does not find anime to be compelling as a medium when it comes to what he feels is necessary for a good adaption of Ender's Game. You can rail and spit all you want that he just needs to see more of it, but that too is an opinion. Orincoro will either experience anime that changes his mind, or he won't, and you cannot guarantee that if he did see the anime you specified that he'd experience the way you have.
I think Ender's Game would make a fine animated movie. But I also believe that live action absolutely brings things to the table that animation cannot, it just can't. A person drawing can't bring the spontaneous facial expressions and body movement that an actor in the moment can. The chemistry between characters is limited to what the artists draw and the voice actors do. In live action, it's all up to the actors at the time with direction.
Anime is not live cinema, is not theater, is not books, is not oral stories. Much the same way a man can act out a very convincing woman, but in some ways he can't complete the act. But we might want or require women as perceived by a man in a story. As you said, you believe Ender's Game requires animation because child actors cannot be expected to play such complex characters. Orson Scott Card himself disagrees with you as evidenced by his opinions on the movie Peter Pan. He is also a Hayao Miyazaki fan, and an avowed fan of animation, so maybe he agrees that animation is a viable route. We'll only know if a movie is made.
Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format that can do anything, and anybody who disagrees with you is ignorant because they just need to watch more anime. Maybe you are right, but it's unfair to insist people trust your opinions above their own.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Thanks JB, my input is no longer required.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Videogame sprites are the most relatable thing ever. I win.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: You don't want an argument about you? What isn't about you? I can't play this game dude, Seriously, I don't care.
As if anyone actually believes that when you go running to Sakeriver to see if I'm being mean to you or not.
quote:Orincoro is absolutely entitled to *experience* things the way he does.
There is a clear difference between him having an honest opinion and him trying to state that opinion as fact, one is honest opinion the other is being pompous and overbearing; I recognize that anime isn't for everyone but he went into a very long elaborative wall of text justifying his opinion with what he considers to be 'evidence' at which point it is not opinion anymore and no longer "safe" from constructive debunking.
You are also strawmaning my position BB, I am not saying it is the end all be all, while I am convinced an animated adaption would be better I do recognize it as a YMMV thing.
quote: You can rail and spit all you want that he just needs to see more of it, but that too is an opinion.
That was never my argument regarding Orincoro you didn't read my posts, I was pointing out evidence that there were indeed shows that do the very things it claims it doesn't do, I am not saying for him to watch it because I know he won't.
quote: Orincoro will either experience anime that changes his mind, or he won't, and you cannot guarantee that if he did see the anime you specified that he'd experience the way you have.
I can guarantee that it is at least an experience approximate to it; which is the benchmark we are discussion, whether it is sufficient or not.
quote: I think Ender's Game would make a fine animated movie. But I also believe that live action absolutely brings things to the table that animation cannot, it just can't. A person drawing can't bring the spontaneous facial expressions and body movement that an actor in the moment can. The chemistry between characters is limited to what the artists draw and the voice actors do. In live action, it's all up to the actors at the time with direction.
Anime is not live cinema, is not theater, is not books, is not oral stories. Much the same way a man can act out a very convincing woman, but in some ways he can't complete the act. But we might want or require women as perceived by a man in a story.
Maybe, but it is clear that it can do it well enough, and close enough, that the audience will still get the same cues even if it lacks the same level of subtlety, which is all that is really required.
quote: Orson Scott Card himself disagrees with you as evidenced by his opinions on the movie Peter Pan. He is also a Hayao Miyazaki fan, and an avowed fan of animation, so maybe he agrees that animation is a viable route. We'll only know if a movie is made.
Aside from the appeal to authority the precise argument was finding enough child actors while doing the movie when they can be found and vetted before they grow to old for the part, find a few good ones is surely no problem its finding enough for the 12+ named cast that is problematic.
quote: Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format that can do anything, and anybody who disagrees with you is ignorant because they just need to watch more anime. Maybe you are right, but it's unfair to insist people trust your opinions above their own.
Again strawmaning, I never said it was the end all be all; secondly just as in logical discussion when one party says "I have never seen evidence of X" the reasonable response is to say "Alright so here is X" if the other party is incorrect.
If they then see or view that evidence and still disagree that's one thing but until they do it IS reasonable to state that their position is in doubt if there is evidence to the contrary.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
You need to calm down. I believe you've been told by the only person you *do* have to listen to here.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm perfectly calm
'calm down' isn't the same as 'stop talking'.
If he wants the discussion to step he can lock the thread, he doesn't need you to back seat moderate.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I already won.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Lol. Yes.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Blayne:
quote:Where precisely did I cross the line?
"have a nice day your opinion is not worth the paper it isn't printed on"
Telling somebody that the things they believe are worthless isn't a great place to go ever.
"As if anyone actually believes that when you go running to Sakeriver to see if I'm being mean to you or not."
Now you are taunting him.
quote:You are also strawmaning my position BB, I am not saying it is the end all be all, while I am convinced an animated adaption would be better I do recognize it as a YMMV thing.
I was exaggerating a bit, as indicated by my saying, "Meanwhile, you need to stop acting like anime is the end all be all format"
You mention anime so often, that it's easy for people to think your biases make it hard for you to be critical of its limitations. I'm glad that is not the case, you'd do well to perhaps say what you think anime's weaknesses are.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The second sure yes, I was wrong but the first was a conditional statement.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
Beebop ski-do dilley-wop!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'm perfectly calm
'calm down' isn't the same as 'stop talking'.
If he wants the discussion to step he can lock the thread, he doesn't need you to back seat moderate.
He isn't. He just said you were over the line, and the moderator subsequently agreed.
You're way too worked up about this and it's way to get you worked up about this and many subjects like this, and then you get juvenile and dismissing. Stop it.
(this message brought to you by the 'locking the thread is not the solution' institute)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I wonder how much of my opinion here is based on weird marketing things as opposed to the the actual qualities of anime itself. For example, I saw the trailer for Appleseed on apple.com, and thought it was really cool. But I don't think it ever showed up in mainstream theaters, so I never ended up watching it. If Ender's Game was actually marketed aggressively in America, it'd probably do well whatever it's animation style.
Not really. Anime would be the kiss of death for it (not that we really have to dwell on that, since it's never going to happen that way, nor should it), high-budget standard animation would work, and is not without precedent (see: Iron Giant, once it escaped the initial marketing failure), and slightly stylized cgi would, I suppose, also work. None of these is optimal and I offer the animation option only as a means I see of escaping the otherwise insurmountable quality issues inherent to the near impossibility of making this movie with an age-appropriate cast without cheapening the pacing and themes.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
How about you let the moderator do the moderating and you can get back to the backseat.
You also frequently join into many of these subjects and subjects like this just to criticize me on whatever is wrong you perceive with my behavior at the time, how about you stop doing that? You have a problem pm me or the moderator and leave well enough alone, you should know better by this point that I don't respond well whenever you get on my case.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I leave well enough alone frequently, but this hinges on the position that your behavior, when I choose to comment on it, is still 'well enough.'
quote:you should know better by this point that I don't respond well whenever you get on my case.
Saying this essentially boils down to 'Don't criticize me, because you know I won't respond well if I do.' No. My response is not to walk on eggshells around you in the hopes of placating your worst tendencies, or their effects on this board. You're not entitled to fault others for you going overboard, even when you've established that tendency for years.
What's going on here is excruciatingly simple. You're going overboard. Debate that if you want, since you don't seem to understand where you're going wrong. I think you should stop it. Debate that if you think you're perfectly entitled to act the way you do. Don't default to assuming that I'm just a troll or say I should 'know better' than to comment negatively on your negative behaviors when I desire that you cease them.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I know it's been discussed before (what about the Ender's Game movie hasn't?) but I am interested in the idea of a computer animated version. To my eye, the animation has greatly improved in the last few years to the point that real human emotions and actions are clearly communicated, and of course it solves that problem of many good child actors. However, it does seem that right now computer animation might still be a little to weak for anything but broad comedy. Tangled is a great example; it had a lot of the story communicated by character reactions (visually I mean) and I think it did a great job of it. Yet the expressions were normally over the top, which was just right for that movie but I don't know if that's just the limit of the technology right now. Of course the movie is still a ways off from being made so who knows where it will be in a few years.
Hobbes Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I would prefer something along the lines of AppleSeed or Advent Children if they did go full CGI route.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Tangled is a great example; it had a lot of the story communicated by character reactions (visually I mean) and I think it did a great job of it. Yet the expressions were normally over the top, which was just right for that movie but I don't know if that's just the limit of the technology right now.
Tangled is a pixar collaborative which applied nearly every lesson that pixar has learned about the balance between realism and stylized representation in order to avoid the Uncanny Valley (for more on the subject, see the failures of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Polar Express). The middle ground for motion animation that it has found most closely matches that of the old animation studios in America.
If the latest 'realistic animation' venture -- called, I think, 'mars needs moms' -- fails, expect for us to stay there.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
The problem with going CG or the animation route is simple. Unless the movie is rated G or PG, it won't do well at the box office.
In the US when the average person hears of an animated or CG movie, they think of a family film. There have been some attempts to bring animation to a more adult audience, but there have been very few that have been able to have a decent level of success.
South Park make $83 million. Final Fantasy made $85 million. Eight Crazy Nights (That horrible animated Adam Sandler film) made $86 million.
Now compare that to movies such as Up, Tangled, Monsters Inc. and others. Up made over $700 million. Tangled (so far) has grossed over $400 million, and Monsters Inc. was over $500 million.
Animated family movies sell well. Anything Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar releases is box office gold. They are established brands. They pretty much have a monopoly on the genre. If it isn't one of those companies, and it isn't a family movie, it's not going to do well.
That isn't true for live action movies. A no name director or studio can put together a live action movie and do well at the box office. District 9 was directed by a guy that previously directed commercials, and that movie made over $200 million on a $30 million budget.
At the same time, a big name director can make a film that bombs at the box office. Alexander was directed by Oliver Stone, had numerous famous actors, and lost over $110 million at the box office. Poseiden was directed by Wolfgang Peterson and lost $100 million as well.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Calling Peterson a big name is stretching it, and Peterson's reputation amongst film buffs had kind of faded by then.
But Grindhouse didnt do well, so I guess I agree.
Posted by Alai (Member # 1663) on :
Orci and Kurtzman didn't write the newest screenplay, they're getting behind the project as PRODUCERS. The screenplay that they're shopping was written by Gavin Hood and was based off a prior screenplay by OSC. So, the entire argument about OSC hating Hollywood writers and people not taking his scripts seriously is moot.
Salaam
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
OSC also said recently, in his Tangled review, that animation is extremely expensive? I think we've all been working under the assumption that animation would be cheaper.
Does anyone actually KNOW how the cost numbers work out? I'm just curious. I'm not a big enough movie buff to even know how to go about comparing such a thing.
P.S. While I think E.G. might do well animated, they've gotten REALLY good with it in alot of places, I do think you'd lose alot of people by putting it into an Anime format.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
It depends a lot on how good the animation is. And how good the acting you're comparing it to. The last few Pixar movies have had a budget of around 150-200 million. Which isn't too dissimilar to flashy sci-fi CGI films. (which also include a lot of animation, just not of humans)
Anime (usually) is cheaper because Anime is done cheaply, with few frames per second, lots of recycled footage and long freeze frames of dramatic expressions. I haven't been able to find the budget for Appleseed, other than "it was a lot." Howl's Moving Castle was done for 24 million, but I don't consider that style to be quite appropriate for Ender's Game and I don't know what the differences would entail. Princess and the Frog was about 100 million.
I have no idea what portions of any of those budgets went to actual animation.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
it'd be neat to know which popular animes had the least unique animation frames per episode.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raymond Arnold: I have no idea what portions of any of those budgets went to actual animation.
Anecdotally, I've known a few digital animation artists who've worked on hollywood film for studios in Europe, and basically it comes down to man-hours. It can actually be a money saver to manufacture a large number of elements of a film digitally so that, for instance, two highly paid actors don't actually ever have to meet in person (or go to the location) to do a scene together. A flatmate of mine was the digital artist on a few dozen shots for the film "Season of Witch," and he said it was cheaper to employ him and a team of 5 animators for two months than it would have been to fly Nicholas Cage out to the location in Karlovy Vary for an extra day, which would have been the other way of getting the shots. Seems weird, anyway.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
I assumed that it would work out like that when you're dealing with very high profile actors, but wasn't sure how it worked out for more "run of the mill" actors.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was just recalling Beowulf, which had some major problems, but got a 71% out of Rotten Tomatoes. It cost $150 mill to make, grossed $85 mill in the US and $196 mill worldwide. But I think it sold bigger in Britain than the US, which is not going to be as likely with EG. It would be very risky, but any screen rendition of EG will be.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
OSC is specifically on record as saying Beowulf style animation isn't there yet (there's a bit of a vacant look in the characters eyes)
What DOES strike me as relevant is Benjamin Button, but that had a pretty huge budget and only focused on one character. I think another 10 years or so and it'll be feasible to apply it to Ender's Game without taking too big a risk.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Y'know what, looking at it objectively I think Wandering / Houro Mosuko probably has the most detailed animation/artwork I've seen to date out of anime, I think I misread the question, least unique as in which one uses the most or the least shortcuts/frame reuse?
Posted by Alai (Member # 1663) on :
Raymond,
Both BEOWULF and BENJAMIN BUTTON used motion capture, the same technology they used in AVATAR. The animation is there... For a price.
Salaam
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Or we could all just wait another 8-10 years, at which point computers will be fast enough that CG movies will look exactly like live action.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
They could just hire that kid from the Darth Vader commercial. He'd make a great Ender.
Or maybe Bean.
Um, never mind.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: South Park make $83 million. Final Fantasy made $85 million. Eight Crazy Nights (That horrible animated Adam Sandler film) made $86 million.
Now compare that to movies such as Up, Tangled, Monsters Inc. and others. Up made over $700 million. Tangled (so far) has grossed over $400 million, and Monsters Inc. was over $500 million.
Animated family movies sell well. Anything Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar releases is box office gold. They are established brands. They pretty much have a monopoly on the genre. If it isn't one of those companies, and it isn't a family movie, it's not going to do well.
In fairness, both Eight Crazy Nights and Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within were bad movies. FF was sort of worth watching for the technology, but the script seemed like it had never gotten the necessary edit/filter where someone said, "You know this is a huge action movie cliche, right? You know that this is a stilted and confusing way for supposed human beings to talk, right?" And South Park was limited by, well, being South Park- by the time it came out, you probably knew whether this was a movie you were going to want to see or not, and it wasn't likely to be anyone's "movie night impulse buy".
Conversely, Tangled et. al. were all really good movies. And yes, Pixar/Disney's brand undoubtedly helped, but that brand was built up by Pixar making really good movies, one after another. (One can't help but wonder if the Disney brand is a bit of a mixed blessing, these days.)
But consider Avatar. I don't know that it's entirely accurate to describe it as a live-action movie, and it doesn't fit into any of the other "animation success" categories. I think we're coming to a point where a non-child friendly, non-Disney/Dreamworks/Pixar film could have a chance, if it was marketed carefully.
I'm not necessarily saying EG could or should be that movie. But I don't think it's as impossible as it might have been ten years ago.
Posted by Yebor1 (Member # 1380) on :
one word answer to the animation problem
PIXAR
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: FF was sort of worth watching for the technology...
For about ten minutes. Then I got the strong urge to perform percussive maintenance on said technology.
But, hey, at least we got a really hot looking wallpaper of Aki Ross in a bikini out of it, so it wasn't a total wash.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yebor1: one word answer to the animation problem
PIXAR
That answer shows a pretty staggeringly poor grasp of the problem.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: FF was sort of worth watching for the technology...
For about ten minutes. Then I got the strong urge to perform percussive maintenance on said technology.
But, hey, at least we got a really hot looking wallpaper of Aki Ross in a bikini out of it, so it wasn't a total wash.
I liked it, I felt it was generally true to the feel of Final Fantasy just with the steampunk removed.
The more time passes the more I hate avatar for its ending and overall marysueness.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I like Advent Children.
Posted by Danlo the Wild (Member # 5378) on :
I could pull the Sword from the stone.
Before you kick it into oblivion,
Let me take a crack at it.
THOR
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
remember this?
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Tangled is a pixar collaborative which applied nearly every lesson that pixar has learned about the balance between realism and stylized representation in order to avoid the Uncanny Valley (for more on the subject, see the failures of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Polar Express). The middle ground for motion animation that it has found most closely matches that of the old animation studios in America.
If the latest 'realistic animation' venture -- called, I think, 'mars needs moms' -- fails, expect for us to stay there.
quote:Disney’s latest 3-D animated film “Mars Needs Moms” may be one of the biggest box office bombs of all time.
Though released widely in 3,117 theaters over the weekend, the 3-D animated adventure earned a paltry $6.8 million. According to the box office tracking site, Box Office Mojo, that ranks among the top ten worst openings ever for a film distributed that broadly. Taking into account the high cost of tickets for 3-D and IMAX screens, along with the film’s reported $150 million budget, the sales numbers look downright disastrous.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I saw "Mars Needs Moms". I hadn't heard of it at all before I saw it in the theater, not a single preview!
That being said, the movie did sorta stink. The plot line has basically been done before (just not on an intergalactic scale) and the level of predictability was high, even for a kids movie.
My son and cousin both were entertained, but it certainly wasn't anything special. I can't even imagine why anyone would want to see it in 3D.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
For this movie to work out best, I am going to have to say, it needs to be animated... I'm not without reasons ._. 1. No 5-10 year old are as smart in current times as in the book... oh they might think they are, but no, futuristic setting where money seems not a problem and the best possible education is necessary children-eat-your-hearts-out.
2. Animated Buggers battles would be totally awesome ._. and it would make it look a little less Starwars...
3. There are few Teenish Animated movies...
4. If it is Animated all the characters can look exactly like they need to... and not like, what the next best person looks like /:
5. Did I mention the it would seem like starwars..
6. It's harder to imagine it any other way ...
*7. DO NOT 3D IT, I know many people who get headaches-me being one of them- it's overdone, and takes longer to produce. mooo ----------- As far as the movie being an Anime, there's potential, Titan A.E. is a BA movie, if you haven't seen it do so! ----------- I don't like the review they make Ender seem bi-polar....
Message for OSC- If they stretch to far from the story or make things seem true that aren't... just pull the plug... I would rather see the 'making of' the movie fail, than the movie itself... I can't handle another Eragon ):
[ March 19, 2011, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Rawrain ]
Posted by justme7775 (Member # 12533) on :
As an animator myself and a lover of EG it has always seemed clear to me that this is a complete CGI movie. Any attempt at trying to make it in any other form would miss the mark. Between motion capture and the great facial expressions they can capture now (i.e. avatar), it should really be a simple choice - CGI.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
@Rawrain, well there ARE children who are, but they are unlikely to be actors and unlikely to still be old enough for the parts.
Though if animated you could get slightly older child voice actors who still sound young enough to be believable and yet still intelligent enough to pull it off.
@Titan A.E I loved it.
@Star Wars NO, Star Wars is a BAD direction, Ender's Game is generally in the middle of the Moh's Scale of scifi hardness and thats what makes it immersive so much seems still like its our technology yet so much is just different.
In fact I would vote for no animated spaceship battles shown AT ALL unless it was an in universe propoganda film (as in the book).
Have all the 'battles' be points on a grid, it can be an extremely flashy points on a grid that will have great defictionalization video game potential eventually like a 3D version of the space game Haruhi plays against the computer club but no actual battles.
Though I would love to see the crew actually shown on screen when Bean does his prayers.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
@Blayne I still disagree about children being as intelligent as those in this book... Especially including Ender and Bean.... But seriously these kids were taking something like high school AP Classes before age 10, and I can't even imagine how much harder they were in B.S. or even C.S. .... I hear every now and then about child prodigies... but they only seem interested in the arts which is absolutely useless unless they become entertainers and even more useless against an invading alien race..unless....
@ As for space battles, I would like to see a little bit of what's happening from the battle side of what Ender's team is commanding... and most importantly showing the Bugger home planet being completely wiped-out by the Little Doctor.. Seeing that in CGI on a High-Def t.v. would probably be the coolest scene ever... to see something explode into tiny little specs then form back together ._. would be like recording a sheet of glass exploding then throwing it in reverse awesome.
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: and most importantly showing the Bugger home planet being completely wiped-out by the Little Doctor..
Hey! What about a spoiler alert??
Just kidding.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
whether or not this movie is animated or somehow attempted embarrassingly with a cast of real children, there's no way you wouldn't have depictions of the on-site battle scenes.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: @Blayne I still disagree about children being as intelligent as those in this book... Especially including Ender and Bean.... But seriously these kids were taking something like high school AP Classes before age 10, and I can't even imagine how much harder they were in B.S. or even C.S. .... I hear every now and then about child prodigies... but they only seem interested in the arts which is absolutely useless unless they become entertainers and even more useless against an invading alien race..unless....
Well, obviously we don't have an Bean's running around - but since he's a special case, I don't think we'd have a problem having a child playing him.
I think we (the human race) actually HAVE produced a number of children with Ender caliber intelligence, if not with his particular gift for empathy. Certainly we produce children that would qualify for battle school. In fact I've actually met one or two of them when I was at my math/science academy. Even dateline does occasionally spotlight a real math or physics whiz. I seem to remember watching one little boy, a number of years ago, who was in a differential equations class when he was about 8.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
They've already started the animated version. Here's a preview of the buggers' drilling sequence.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Classic.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
Heres a small interview with screen writer Roberto Orci.
I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman are hacks.
I've seen all their films and not a single thing they've written has impressed me or I would consider to be good.
I'm not looking forward to this film regardless of who is behind it. A film version of Ender's Game isn't really necessary. But that's just my opinion. The point is, Orci and Kurtzman are amongst the worst successful screenwriters working in Hollywood and I can't stand their infantile output.
Posted by dlaxd (Member # 12540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: They probably are if we agreed on something.
The advantages are: -Cheaper to produce; and thus far more attractive to producers who look at Ender's Game and find it risky. --As a corollary if its cheaper and does "really well" it is far more likely to be green lit for sequels or an expansion of the visual franchise, mini-series, ova's, maybe a tv series. -Has a gauranteed audience from both EG fans and anime fans of which there is probably strong overlap; and thus will also do well overseas in Japan or Taiwan and Singapore. -not limited to so-so quality child actors, older actors who are skilled at sounding young or female older actors can do the job and bring about a more 'natural' sounding performance. -Far more likely OSC could retain significant creative control over the final produce and animation allows for a significant higher chance of it remaining true to the books. --for example EG and ES uses alot of "inner monologues" as a narrative tool that I've only ever seen properly done in animation and rarely done in live action well (Dune miniseries?).
There is just about every reason for it with the only reasons against being the quickly eroding institution bias against animation in mainstream US mindset regarding "cartoons as childrens things".
Scrubs had an inner monologue with JD
Posted by dlaxd (Member # 12540) on :
Also does anyone else think that Jeff Bridges would be a good Graff and the director made Tsotsi(the foregn film winner in '05 i think) which was good
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Jeff Goldblum would be a better Graff!
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Malcom McDowell as Graff.
Patrick Stewart as Mazer. A bearded, old looking Patrick Stewart.
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