Since there are a lot of people here, who are much more knowledgeable about American politics than I am, I would like to ask about something that has always bothered me a bit.
Over the years, I have read countless of articles about the illegal immigrant problem in America. I have listened to what politicians say about it. I know many want to build a border fence, etc, to find a solution to the problem. I don't think that any of the proposed solutions sound very effective.
So about the question:
I have never heard anyone comment anything on changing the focus from immigrants to companies that employ them.
Wouldn't that be a lot more effective way to control the problem? Simply give companies and private employers heavy punishments for hiring illegal immigrants, and they will be much less inclined to hire them. If people don't hire immigrants, the word will spread out. People in other countries will know that it's a struggle for an illegal immigrant to find work in the USA, and therefore there will be much less illegal immigrants coming in.
To my stupid Finnish brain that sounds like a pretty logical way to solve the problem. I guess there is some massive flaw in it, as it never seems to be considered in American politics.
What is the inherent flaw in that approach?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I have to admit, it's strange to me that you've read lots of articles on illegal immigration, but none have mentioned focusing on the employer angle. It's not an uncommon idea, here.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
About two years ago the car wash down the street got raided by immigration, they did pick a couple of illegals and fine the business but all it did was make us residents of Phoenix Arizona laugh. In this case, if there is a car wash in Arizona that has any kind of hand service rather than an automated tunnel majority of the workers are illegal and most likely work for tips alone. We have tons of restaurants and fast-food chains who primarily hire illegals over legal residents and citizens.
Mexicans aren't coming to America because they expect it to be a land of milk and honey, things really are just that bad in Mexico that living as criminals in America is a better life for these people. The same guys working in kitchens are standing outside hardware stores just hoping that a complete stranger might pick them up and pay them to do some random type of construction. They suffer no disillusions on the matter. As to illegal immigrants from other places, the problem is largely ignored and is fiercely tied to the international sex trade.
So close to the Mexican-American border the problem is just so pervasive that its hard to even broach a solution, and most solutions are juvenile in the face of reality.
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I have to admit, it's strange to me that you've read lots of articles on illegal immigration, but none have mentioned focusing on the employer angle. It's not an uncommon idea, here.
Might be just bad luck on my part, but yeah, I've practically never seen it mentioned. I haven't seen it much mentioned in internet discussions, either.
I actually brought this once in another board, and people there simply said that there is no way the government is going to go after big businesses like Walmart, etc. It's easier to concentrate on the illegals, who are largely defenseless, than to go after big convenience store chains, big restaurant chains, big gas station chains, big construction companies, etc. Big business might not react too kindly to politicians who would directly attack them.
I'm not sure if there is any truth to that, but it sounded somewhat logical at the time.
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: About two years ago the car wash down the street got raided by immigration, they did pick a couple of illegals and fine the business but all it did was make us residents of Phoenix Arizona laugh. In this case, if there is a car wash in Arizona that has any kind of hand service rather than an automated tunnel majority of the workers are illegal and most likely work for tips alone. We have tons of restaurants and fast-food chains who primarily hire illegals over legal residents and citizens.
Mexicans aren't coming to America because they expect it to be a land of milk and honey, things really are just that bad in Mexico that living as criminals in America is a better life for these people. The same guys working in kitchens are standing outside hardware stores just hoping that a complete stranger might pick them up and pay them to do some random type of construction. They suffer no disillusions on the matter. As to illegal immigrants from other places, the problem is largely ignored and is fiercely tied to the international sex trade.
So close to the Mexican-American border the problem is just so pervasive that its hard to even broach a solution, and most solutions are juvenile in the face of reality.
How big are the fines? I would assume that the fine threats for the companies would need to be considerably big in order to make them reconsider hiring illegals.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
The car wash was closed for a couple of days and is still open today. I have no clue about the details but if it re-opened under a new owner it happened extremely quickly, and I have no reason to believe that they practice anymore legal hiring practices.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: I actually brought this once in another board, and people there simply said that there is no way the government is going to go after big businesses like Walmart, etc. It's easier to concentrate on the illegals, who are largely defenseless, than to go after big convenience store chains, big restaurant chains, big gas station chains, big construction companies, etc. Big business might not react too kindly to politicians who would directly attack them.
I'm not sure if there is any truth to that, but it sounded somewhat logical at the time.
To be fair to Tuukka, it is the truth that it is generally easier to go after the illegal immigrants themselves than their employers. Rabbit's own links note that Obama has been receiving a fair bit of flak from people for actually attempting to audit and prosecute employers for violating the law.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Also, most businesses go for plausible deniability. If the employee is on the books, they showed all the appropriate paperwork. How was the company to know that those things were forged/bought illegally. This is also how most illegals end up paying more taxes than the rest of us. If they get a paycheck (versus cash) then their employer pays taxes out of it, but the employee does not file for rebates or get SS when old.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.
Very true indeed, and I must add very few of the illegals know English at all..So in the situation of paperwork they would have to have someone else do it..
Though I know there's also another problem, once we find out they are here we merely ship them back to Mexico so long as they've not committed any additional crimes, and from there they just hop the border again and again...
As far as big business goes, I highly doubt there are many illegals in those kind due to the rigorous amounts of paper work and the fact those big businesses don't want to look bad, and hiring illegals is a good way to look bad...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I must add very few of the illegals know English at all.
Untrue.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: I must add very few of the illegals know English at all.
Untrue.
What she said. While they are going to be some immigrants that never learn any English, or even just fundamental English words, the idea that most of them go that route is fundamentally contradicted by evidence.
For example it is estimated 90,000 illegal immigrants are on wait lists to attend English classes. 75% of Spanish speaking immigrants reports that within 15 years they speak English regularly.
Those two statistics are cited frequently, I'll see about pinning down the sources.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.
It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: The entire argument rests on a flawed premise, though. Many employers -- individuals hiring a housekeeper, nanny, gardener; small farmers hiring migrant workers -- are HIGHLY unlikely to pay workers (legal or otherwise) on the books. That makes catching them far less likely, and therefore hiring an illegal (or not checking for legal status at all) not much of an additional risk.
While all of this is true for many employers, there are also many for whom it is not true. Many of the people I've known hire housekeepers, nannies, gardeners and and even farm workers through an agency. They pay the agency who pays the workers. These agencies often employ dozens of workers and are very frequently aware that their employees are illegal. The agencies are sometimes even involved in assisting their workers in immigrating illegally. There have been several high profile cases where such agencies have been charged with "human trafficing" (i.e. slavery).
One of the reasons that illegal immigration continues to be such a problem is that there are not legal immigration alternatives for most unskilled work. Sadly,proposals to create legal alternatives are usually dead on arrival. There are unfortunately a lot of unscrupulous businesses who benefit from have workers with no legal rights. I am aware of several cases where builders have contracted with illegal workers on projects and then refused to honor the contracts when the work was finished -- presuming the workers would rather accept part pay than sue and risk being deported. Even more honest businesses benefit because the illegal workers willing to accept low wages drive wages down across the board.
The combination of businesses that profit from illegal labor and the xenophobia/biotry that pervades the bible belt make anti-immigrant rhetoric the perfect issue for appealing to the "conservative base".
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due.
I personally know a lot of Americans living in abroad who have never learned more than a dozen words of the local language. They get by, by associating primarily with other ex-pats and expecting the locals to learn English. Is it surprising that some aliens living in the US, particular those living in areas with large Spanish speaking populations never learn English. Its not surprising that you meet some. Its very hard to learn a language when you are older. None the less, statistics show that the vast majority of Spanish speaking immigrants do learn English.
quote:This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education.
Right, because in first world countries like America almost everyone is multi-lingual. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due.
I personally know a lot of Americans living in abroad who have never learned more than a dozen words of the local language. They get by, by associating primarily with other ex-pats and expecting the locals to learn English.
Or in some cases (Hong Kong) the locals actually do speak English as it was mandatory learning in school.
Funny, how a foreign country, with a language as ancient as any spoken today, still recognizes the utility of teaching its populace English and somehow crams it into the curriculum somewhere. Not only that, they also get Mandarin classes int here too. They don't even cut PE and art to do it!
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Rabbit: I'm talking about people who would have been lucky to be proficient in spanish more than twenty years ago when their education ended.
Blade: Perhaps OSC was spot-on in his predictions of the "common" language, aside from all the portuguese slang.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Rabbit: I'm talking about people who would have been lucky to be proficient in spanish more than twenty years ago when their education ended.
There is no question that there are big deficiencies in the Mexican education system and that many of the poor in Latin America have insufficient access to educational opportunities. The fact that most of them don't learn English in school is, however, not evidence of the inadequacy of their system.
Furthermore, a solid education isn't much of an advantage when it comes to learning a foreign language as an adult. That's why I brought up the example of American ex-pats -- most of whom are professionals with college degrees and still have difficulty learning to speak a new language.
The implication, however, that many people from Mexico aren't even proficient in their native tongue is appallingly bigoted. They may not be able to read a word in any language, but I'm confident that with the exception of those with severe disabilities they are all proficient in speaking their native language.
You seem very critical of Hispanic Immigrants who haven't learned to speak English fluently. You seem to imply this means they have no intention of integrating into the culture and becoming "real Americans". That judgement suggests you haven't considered that becoming fluent in a foreign language as an adult is simply a very difficult task. Before making that criticism, try living in another country and see how easy it is for you to become fluent in that language.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote:The fact, that most of them don't learn English in school is, however, not evidence of the inadequacy of their system.
Since most non-British/Irish, non-Scandinavian Europeans (outside of the tourist industry) don't speak English, and those that do are often not very fluent - with the excellent education that they generally receive, I agree that it certainly isn't an issue native to Mexico. Most people growing up don't assume that they'll ever need another language. The necessity comes later, when language acquisition is more complicated.
And anyone who thinks that it's easy for Spanish speakers to learn English is having a laugh. In Spain, English is considered notoriously difficult by nearly everyone.
Should people make an effort to learn to understand and speak the language of the country they live in? I certainly think so. But when you're working three jobs (legal or not) and scraping together money to live on and send home, language classes are never going to come top of your list.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I was not referring to spanish as a spoken language but as a written language, vocabulary, and grammar. Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.
I'm not arguing on the matter that modern American education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult, simply that under-education has a profound on the ability to become fluent long after ending said poor education.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I was not referring to spanish as a spoken language but as a written language, vocabulary, and grammar. Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.
That's an elitist assessment. The undereducated have different language skills than the highly educated. They are not necessarily poorer.
quote:I'm not arguing on the matter that modern American education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult, simply that under-education has a profound on the ability to become fluent long after ending said poor education.
How does arguing that being undereducated is a disadvantage when it comes to learning a foreign language as an adult different than arguing that a good education makes one better at learning a second language as an adult? They seem synonymous to me and the evidence does not suggest its true.
I suspect it is much harder to learn to read in a second language if you've never learned to read in a first language, but I doubt this has much impact on verbal language skills. Since you referred to Mexican immigrants you have spoken with, I presumed you were talking about verbal skills.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Since most non-British/Irish, non-Scandinavian Europeans (outside of the tourist industry) don't speak English, and those that do are often not very fluent - with the excellent education that they generally receive, I agree that it certainly isn't an issue native to Mexico.
You seem to have forgotten Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland where most people are in fact conversant in English. I also object to the "outside the tourist industry" part. Fluency in English is pretty much a requirement for a career in the sciences anywhere in the world. The same is true for many other high level professions. OSC stark isn't much of a prediction. English is already the language of international commerce.
I will, however, agree that relatively few people who speak romance languages are fluent in English, even among the well educated. As a cycle tourist, I've had a lot of experience trying to communicate with the average man on the street in lots of European countries. In my experience, it is in fact hard to find fluent English speakers in France, Spain and Italy, but most people know enough English words that with patience and a lot of gesturing we are able to communicate basic stuff.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Hmmm.
There are American or European expats that work around the globe and don't speak the local language. They still contribute to the economy and live their lives well.
That works. So whats wrong with foreign workers working in the States, making their fortunes, and returning home to live? Why do we care if they learn English or try to assimilate?
There seems to be an embedded assumption that foreign workers in the United States should speak English or that they necessarily want to become Americans (or "real" Americans as the case may be).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.
It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.
I'll go you anecdote for anecdote. I worked in a restaurant for 7 years and worked side by side with Mexicans and other South Americans on a daily basis. Some of them were fresh off the boat and weren't as good, but would steadily improve as time passed. Some of them spoke English fluently without even much of an accent, some spoke broken but understandably with a heavy accent, and everything in between.
Anecdotally, I've found that immigrants with young children who are in school tend to adapt to the language faster, because their kids zoom way ahead of them. Even when Spanish is still the primary language spoken in the home.
And like Rabbit has said, what does the school system have to do with anything? Excepting outside influences, only an extreme minority of US students come out of K-12 with foreign language fluency.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: You seem to have forgotten Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland where most people are in fact conversant in English.
To an extent, I was using shorthand. Perhaps I should have said 'Northern European'. Although, in my experience as a tourist, the level of English in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands varies widely, from total, perfect fluency to practically nothing, sometimes within the same town. I've never visited Switzerland, but I'll take your word for it.
I'll agree with you completely on the 'language of science' thing, though (besides, you should know!) A lot of scientists of my acquaintance have been amazingly multi-lingual.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Its my admittedly uneducated opinion on the matter of ex-pats not speaking the local language, if you know your only going to be around for a little while and the area is comfortable for english only speakers then I don't think I would learn a whole new language either. But for a properly educated person to take up residence and not learn the local language seems like a choice, I work in a convenience store in Phoenix and from ear alone I've picked up enough spanish to compensate for any customer who speaks no english.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:The International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.
Seems fair...we did invent the darn things.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
All by ourselves, too.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I personally interact daily with Mexican men who can't speak anymore than the absolute minimum to make due. This is because of Mexico's abysmal public education, and mostly only older persons are unable to learn english despite the obvious shortcomings of not speaking the language of the country where one resides. English has proven to be a very pervasive language, and as technology makes the world a smaller place people across the globe have become more comfortable with english, American dialect in particular.
It actually seems quite difficult to be surrounded by a language so close to spanish and not learn it after years of residency.
I'll go you anecdote for anecdote. I worked in a restaurant for 7 years and worked side by side with Mexicans and other South Americans on a daily basis. Some of them were fresh off the boat and weren't as good, but would steadily improve as time passed. Some of them spoke English fluently without even much of an accent, some spoke broken but understandably with a heavy accent, and everything in between.
Anecdotally, I've found that immigrants with young children who are in school tend to adapt to the language faster, because their kids zoom way ahead of them. Even when Spanish is still the primary language spoken in the home.
And like Rabbit has said, what does the school system have to do with anything? Excepting outside influences, only an extreme minority of US students come out of K-12 with foreign language fluency.
I'll jump on the anecdotal band wagon. A little over half the section where I work is from Central/South America. Many of them immigrated here, and in only three cases do I even know if it was legally. One is from Brazil, one is from Peru, and one is from Venezuela. The first moved here on a student visa, and could barely speak English, she went to college, got married, and speaks fluent English just a few years later. I had many many conversations with her all in English. The second went to college in Peru, and learned English and French because it could afford her more opportunities, she moved here on a visa, married an American, and speaks perfect English with an accent. The last moved here with half her family who were seeking political asylum from Hugo Chavez. She learned some English in Venezuela, but simply practiced and now speaks perfectly fluently, and she is younger than me.
Funnily enough, all of them, including myself have been told by Americans over the phone, "I can't understand you, your English isn't very good, can I talk to an American?!" I've personally been asked if I am from India, which if you have spoken to me makes no sense. People need to realize that the struggle to be understood and to understand others happens in every single country. America doesn't get a pass on that. I suspect Americans who complain about being unable to understand immigrants and their English would be similarly baffled in understanding the English of somebody from South London.
I completely recognize that if you want to exist here in the United States, learning English empowers you, and actually makes you safer, because you can communicate with others effectively. I completely agree with teaching all our students English, but I also agree we need to be pushing another language on them, because that will open doors for them, and can further cement their place in the community they belong to down the road.
If I lived in Chinatown San Francisco, I would expect to learn some Mandarin or Cantonese in my business affairs. Anybody who has learned another language figures out pretty quick that there are concepts and words English just doesn't cover, and being able to say them also fascilitates communication. Make the investment, it pays off.
[ September 14, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
HAH. When I lived in England, and was studying English, locals used to wryly comment that "we invented it didn't we?" Makes you realize how silly nationalist views of history can actually make you sound.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:America doesn't get a pass on that. I suspect Americans who complain about being unable to understand immigrant's and their English would be similarly baffled in understanding the English of somebody from South London.
I have colleagues from pretty much everywhere in the world (Venezuela, India, China, Korea, France, Nigeria, Tanzania, Scotland, Finland, Germany, . . . .). The two people I have the hardest time understanding are native English speakers. One is from South London and the other is from Barbados.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
That does make some sense, when learning a new language (particularly in the case of formal lessons) you learn the formal type which is more likely to be understood.
Posted by BBegley (Member # 12638) on :
I haven't had to do this in over a decade, but from 1989 to 2000 I had to do paperwork on employees we hired, and every one of them had to complete an I-9 form, we had to examine their ID, and the company audited relentlessly, telling us that there were exorbitant fines for hiring undocumented workers. We even (stupidly) had to redo the forms for people when their drivers licenses expired.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: That does make some sense, when learning a new language (particularly in the case of formal lessons) you learn the formal type which is more likely to be understood.
In these particular cases, its a matter of the accent not the formality or informality of the words and sentences. The range of accents among native English speakers is very broad. For me, some accents are simply harder to understand than others, regardless of whether or not the person speaking is a native speaker, well educated and speaking formally or not.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.
The incredible irony simply takes my breath away.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Have you ever worked with or known a Scouse (Liverpudlian)? I had this one friend a few years ago who had a profoundly Scouse accent, and really, whole sentences were unintelligible. He had a real problem being understood, especially by foreigners.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: Much as the under-educated populace of any place in the world can be found to have poor language skills.
The incredible irony simply takes my breath away.
But is our children learning?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I would like to submit that the US does not have an illegal immigration "problem." Portions of the US have been unequally burdened with illegal aliens without fair compensation for the downside effects on their local economy and services. Overall, however, immigration (legal or illegal) has been and will likely continue to be a net boon to the United States.
What we should have been doing for the past few decades is finding ways to ease the burden of certain aspects of illegal immigration on those areas most in need of relief. We should have provided a safety net for local and state service providers, helped to establish basic medical facilities to ease the burden on emergency rooms, and, where necessary, supplemented local spending on law enforcement, schools, and other areas that become overtaxed.
At the same time, we should adopt a data driven approach to the entire issue of immigration and figure out (as someone has already said) some sensible pathways to legal immigration along with ways to manage the (increased) legal immigration we decide to allow.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
+1
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bob and Icarus posting back to back in a thread?
Is there a rare eclipse happening or something?
Nice to see both your names attached to a post, even if only for a brief instance of delurking. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: I'm a little late to the discussion, but I would like to submit that the US does not have an illegal immigration "problem." Portions of the US have been unequally burdened with illegal aliens without fair compensation for the downside effects on their local economy and services. Overall, however, immigration (legal or illegal) has been and will likely continue to be a net boon to the United States.
What we should have been doing for the past few decades is finding ways to ease the burden of certain aspects of illegal immigration on those areas most in need of relief. We should have provided a safety net for local and state service providers, helped to establish basic medical facilities to ease the burden on emergency rooms, and, where necessary, supplemented local spending on law enforcement, schools, and other areas that become overtaxed.
At the same time, we should adopt a data driven approach to the entire issue of immigration and figure out (as someone has already said) some sensible pathways to legal immigration along with ways to manage the (increased) legal immigration we decide to allow.
I agree with you 100%.
I can't even fathom the ideological shift that would have to take place in order for this to actually be made law. The people at the Tea Party Debate the other night were cheering for letting the sick die and booing Perry whenever he spoke about anything that even resembled amnesty. They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens. They might be a minority, but they're a very large and powerful one, and some thread of that ideology pervades the Republican party.
Too many people would rather brush the problem under the rug and pretend it simply does not exist, all in the name of eventually exacting their version of justice, rather than submitting to reality in the name of actually enacting a just resolution.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I am also with you Bob.
One of the problems endemic to this issue is that US immigration policy is intentionally malleable. We systemically preference certain classes and origins of immigrants, as other countries do, and put a great deal of the authority to either grant legal status or withhold it, in the hands of a relatively small number of people. This has the benefit of allowing a great deal of constrictive control on immigration, but it will always be easier for a bureaucracy to tighten its grip on the inflow, than to relax it. A policy initiative that aims to widen the inflow of legal immigrants is usually laid out *against* the training and instincts of the adjudicators and consular officers who are processing immigrants.
If you're looking for ways to exclude people, you find them. If you're told: "let more people in," you're essentially being told: "don't look so hard for a reason to say no." I've had the polar opposite experience as an immigrant myself. Being from a preferenced origin country, problems with my documentation or status were often (despite how much I complain about diffident bureaucrats) met with "here is a problem we need to get past," whereas if I were a Ukrainian or Vietnamese, the reaction would have been: "*you* have a problem to solve." I've had officials throw unfavorable documentation away, or simply fail to properly file it. I've had consular officials tell me bluntly that they don't intend to share my legal status with the police, and I've had the police "question" me by providing me with the answers they would like to include in their reports. US immigration is not much different, really.
[ September 15, 2011, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens.
Clarification: Are the children legal US citizens (and the parents not) or are both the children and the parents legal US citizens?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I think given the context, we'd have to be talking about the legal children of illegal or legal immigrants; such children having been born in the US, and thus being citizens. Not surprising, considering some conservatives believe that children not born to US citizen parents should not be given automatic citizenship- never mind the potential of statelessness and disenfranchisement for children born and raised in the United States. That's the kind of thing you want- disown your children... the brown ones anyway.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... They even booed him supporting education for the children of immigrants who are legal US Citizens.
Clarification: Are the children legal US citizens (and the parents not) or are both the children and the parents legal US citizens?
Sorry, you're right that was poorly worded.
I meant the legal children (who were born here) of illegal immigrants. That point came up a couple times in the debate.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Oh, no worries. I was just curious if this was an illegal "anchor baby" thing as seemed likely, or a mistaken "perpetual foreigner" thing.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Being someone who lives in an area of high illegal immigration AND high legal immigration (South Texas, near San Antonio), I have to say that the legal status of immigrants isn't really all that indicative of whether or not they learn English. Social class seems to be a much bigger factor. Believe it or not we actually manage to have a fair number of legal immigrants here who are not very well educated or economically secure because they are able to immigrate via familial connections, marriages, etc. (Of course, most of those connections involve US born children of illegal aliens, but still.)
As for prosecuting employers rather than the immigrants themselves, that has been "all the rage" for over a decade now. It really sounds alot better on paper than it works in practice. Sure, it MIGHT deter big corporations from hiring illegal workers (though forged paperwork is common), but like rivka said, many, MANY workers don't work for corporations like that. Around here they tend to work as day laborers in the construction and farming industries, or they clean houses for cash. I know people are SUPPOSED to report all those things, but very few people actually report giving someone $50-$100 every week or every month for domestic cleaning, and tracking down day labor payments is even harder. The sheer bureaucratic nightmare of trying to enforce regulation in those types of situations means it will never happen.
And then there are the actual small businesses who do, willingly, employ undocumented workers. Those are Mom&Pop restaurants, mechanics shops, small grocers, etc. From what I've seen on the news, those are usually the kinds of places that get busted for "hiring illegals", and you have to wonder what good it does. Either they are so shady that they can just pop up again tomorrow under another name, or they're just regular people who made a bad decision and now they're livelihood has been destroyed, usually over less than half a dozen workers - so it hardly makes a huge impact.
Any of the bigger fish in this game, the ones trying to traffic in human flesh or pull off some sort of organized systematic exploitation of the situation, well they're usually too good to get caught.
Posted by Rawrain (Member # 12414) on :
Shoot and kill border patrol, this is America when we say don't trespass DON'T TRESPASS. Simple simple, and maybe before we deport them back to Mexico for strolling across the border we can educate them on how to do it legally ,_,
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Shoot and kill border patrol, this is America when we say don't trespass DON'T TRESPASS.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
Personally i have no love for illegal immigrants at all. I wish there where a way to just get rid of them, and never have them come back, but there is one thing above all others that pisses me off about illegal immigration, and here's a story on it.
I was in a car accident a few years ago, and of course as we all know american health care that's affordable is often times pretty crappy, so i ended up having to pay quite a bit of money for the hospital services. At the same time that i was there in the hospital, there was an illegal immigrant on the same floor. And I wish i was surprised by this, but they had to pay NOTHING for their treatment. Our tax dollars paid it instead. How crappy is that? I pay taxes here and can't get free healthcare, but someone who has never done a damn thing for this country can.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I completely agree with teaching all our students English, but I also agree we need to be pushing another language on them, because that will open doors for them, and can further cement their place in the community they belong to down the road.
If I lived in Chinatown San Francisco, I would expect to learn some Mandarin or Cantonese in my business affairs. Anybody who has learned another language figures out pretty quick that there are concepts and words English just doesn't cover, and being able to say them also fascilitates communication. Make the investment, it pays off. [/QB]
I have to say that i agreed with everything you had to say on this until this part right here. I don't believe anyone should be forced to learn another language unless they are going to move to that country. If i had a desire to move to or visit another country where english was not the primary language I would learn it before i went, but i have no intention of ever going to a country where english isn't the first language. The two i do want to visit speak predominantly english, so i have no reason to learn another language. I also do no know anyone that lives in a non english speaking country, and don't feel i should have to learn another language to live here. To a point i agree. If you plan to travel, live in another country, or work for a company that has international business dealings, you should learn the language. Otherwise, you shouldn't be pushed to it.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: i have no intention of ever going to a country where english isn't the first language.
O_O
quote:I also do no know anyone that lives in a non english speaking country
O_O
Where the heck do you live and how old are you?
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
I live in Kansas and i'm 28 years old. Why?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: I live in Kansas and i'm 28 years old. Why?
We're neighbors!
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: Personally i have no love for illegal immigrants at all. I wish there where a way to just get rid of them, and never have them come back, but there is one thing above all others that pisses me off about illegal immigration, and here's a story on it.
I was in a car accident a few years ago, and of course as we all know american health care that's affordable is often times pretty crappy, so i ended up having to pay quite a bit of money for the hospital services. At the same time that i was there in the hospital, there was an illegal immigrant on the same floor. And I wish i was surprised by this, but they had to pay NOTHING for their treatment. Our tax dollars paid it instead. How crappy is that? I pay taxes here and can't get free healthcare, but someone who has never done a damn thing for this country can.
My sense from your language there is that you're made at the illegal immigrant, but I can't really figure out why. Obviously that immigrant has a job here, so it's not like he or she does NOTHING for this country. He/she probably does some crappy menial labor tasks that makes all our lives easier but gets paid below minimum wage to do it. And it's not like he doesn't WANT health insurance. I'm sure he'd rather be a legalized citizen with access to affordable care.
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: Personally i have no love for illegal immigrants at all. I wish there where a way to just get rid of them, and never have them come back, but there is one thing above all others that pisses me off about illegal immigration, and here's a story on it.
I was in a car accident a few years ago, and of course as we all know american health care that's affordable is often times pretty crappy, so i ended up having to pay quite a bit of money for the hospital services. At the same time that i was there in the hospital, there was an illegal immigrant on the same floor. And I wish i was surprised by this, but they had to pay NOTHING for their treatment. Our tax dollars paid it instead. How crappy is that? I pay taxes here and can't get free healthcare, but someone who has never done a damn thing for this country can.
How do you know that person had to pay nothing? Were they billed? Back when I was super poor and had no health insurance I had to go to the ER for services and I never paid any of those bills either. People with NO MONEY IN GENERAL go to the ER and then "don't have to pay", illegal immigrants are just a subset of poor folk.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rawrain: Shoot and kill border patrol, this is America when we say don't trespass DON'T TRESPASS. Simple simple, and maybe before we deport them back to Mexico for strolling across the border we can educate them on how to do it legally ,_,
Rawrain, I'm getting the sense across the threads you participate in that you're kinda cute and real naive, like a budding libertarian in the pupal stage or something.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote: And I wish i was surprised by this, but they had to pay NOTHING for their treatment. Our tax dollars paid it instead. How crappy is that? I pay taxes here and can't get free healthcare, but someone who has never done a damn thing for this country can.
Everyone who can't afford emergency treatment in this country can (and usually will) get the care for free. This doesn't exclude you, or people who (nominally) pay or have paid taxes. The hospitals can't deny it to anyone, and have to eat the costs associated with the growing number of americans who can't pay, either being written off as indigent with no way to bill, or due to the cost for care unrecoverable due to medical bankruptcy.
There's also some expository psychology you're giving us about you; I doubt you were given a dossier about the life and productivity of this particular illegal immigrant, but we get an automatic assessment in your mind that they've 'never done a damn thing for this country.'
This is more deservedly telling than I think you would expect ..
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, I wonder how she knows they were illegal. The whole scarlet I on the forehead having gone out of style and all.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Rawrain, I'm getting the sense across the threads you participate in that you're kinda cute and real naive, like a budding libertarian in the pupal stage or something.
Shouldn't a principled libertarian favor open borders? The market will sort out who's work is worth paying for and how much. If you can't compete with cheap Mexican labor, too bad.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I completely agree with teaching all our students English, but I also agree we need to be pushing another language on them, because that will open doors for them, and can further cement their place in the community they belong to down the road.
If I lived in Chinatown San Francisco, I would expect to learn some Mandarin or Cantonese in my business affairs. Anybody who has learned another language figures out pretty quick that there are concepts and words English just doesn't cover, and being able to say them also fascilitates communication. Make the investment, it pays off.
I have to say that i agreed with everything you had to say on this until this part right here. I don't believe anyone should be forced to learn another language unless they are going to move to that country. If i had a desire to move to or visit another country where english was not the primary language I would learn it before i went, but i have no intention of ever going to a country where english isn't the first language. The two i do want to visit speak predominantly english, so i have no reason to learn another language. I also do no know anyone that lives in a non english speaking country, and don't feel i should have to learn another language to live here. To a point i agree. If you plan to travel, live in another country, or work for a company that has international business dealings, you should learn the language. Otherwise, you shouldn't be pushed to it. [/QB]
By the time you are old enough to know you are working for an international company it is often too late to learn a language with enough competency to do the job, at least, not without at least 1-2 years of training. Meanwhile, those who were raised bilingual from birth jump right into those jobs.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: I live in Kansas and i'm 28 years old. Why?
Well, the combination of traits is kind of interesting and unusual for me.
There's the "nation of immigrants" angle, many people know someone in their family from either the old country or who immigrated somewhere else for the same reasons. There is the angle of intercultural and interracial marriages, many people should know of relatives that live in non English speaking countries. Toss in globalization and you get the potential for family friends that move overseas to work.
Then you have the angle that many people who graduate from university find temporary or permanent work overseas.
Missing all of these opportunities and then being incurious to the extent that you have no desire to even visit (I can understand no desire to move, but no desire to visit) a very wide range of countries is kind of interesting.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
You may be right. I started out pretty much from 14 on knowing what i wanted to do after college, and knowing that i wouldn't need another language for it. Im not arguing that it can be an asset, i just don't agree with forcing someone to learn one.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: Personally i have no love for illegal immigrants at all. I wish there where a way to just get rid of them, and never have them come back, but there is one thing above all others that pisses me off about illegal immigration, and here's a story on it.
I was in a car accident a few years ago, and of course as we all know american health care that's affordable is often times pretty crappy, so i ended up having to pay quite a bit of money for the hospital services. At the same time that i was there in the hospital, there was an illegal immigrant on the same floor. And I wish i was surprised by this, but they had to pay NOTHING for their treatment. Our tax dollars paid it instead. How crappy is that? I pay taxes here and can't get free healthcare, but someone who has never done a damn thing for this country can.
This is an argument for getting Americans better access to healthcare, not getting rid of illegal immigrants. I'm not going to ask how you know the person in your hospital didn't pay, as I have an aunt who works in a hospital and she insists she knows for sure that there are illegal immigrants who walk in there and seem to know what process to use by which they can avoid paying for the healthcare they need.
Well fine, let's say I grant that. The fact remains that human nature often looks for the path of least resistance. But these immigrants have jobs, they pay rent, they pay sales tax, pay roll tax, and often they pay into social security even though they themselves will never benefit from it.
I sent my wife to the hospital, and we do not have insurance, and we're footing the entire bill. The hospital was kind enough to offer to work with us on a payment schedule, but that's as far as it goes. We will pay that bill hopefully over the course of a few months. If there was some sort of pool I could make payments into so that if I had an emergency I could draw from it, I absolutely would sign up in a heartbeat if it was properly run.
Instead the place I work does not even offer health insurance for people who don't work 40 hours a week, and they forbid me from working a minute over 39 hours and 59 minutes. Were I able to qualify for their health insurance plan, I could expect to pay $300-$400 a month for a family plan, and pay a $5,000 deductible before I could even begin to get any assistance. If I was making $35k-$50k a year, that might be reasonable, we don't. None of this is illegal aliens' fault. Health costs are skyrocketing, and wages are sticky, unless you break a threshold. Illegal immigrants in part are willing to work jobs at the bottom of the ladder, and so labor costs stay low, but we have always simultaneously outsourced many many jobs to other countries through NAFTA and granting China most favored trade status. It's a multiplicity of factors that are hurting us. The ideas that these immigrants that make up 10-13% of the population are somehow forcing wages to stay low, and jacking up healthcare costs is ludicrous. They aren't any more likely to go to the emergency room than you are. When they do, we should treat them, if we can, human life is precious, and the moment we lose that belief, is the moment our society will tear itself apart with infighting.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
Well, the combination of traits is kind of interesting and unusual for me.
There's the "nation of immigrants" angle, many people know someone in their family from either the old country or who immigrated somewhere else for the same reasons. There is the angle of intercultural and interracial marriages, many people should know of relatives that live in non English speaking countries. Toss in globalization and you get the potential for family friends that move overseas to work.
Then you have the angle that many people who graduate from university find temporary or permanent work overseas.
Missing all of these opportunities and then being incurious to the extent that you have no desire to even visit (I can understand no desire to move, but no desire to visit) a very wide range of countries is kind of interesting. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well, of the last 3-4 generations of both sides of my family, none have ever lived in another country, so no one to visit. My mother i think has one fried over seas, and she's moving back here, so no visiting her either lol. As for not wanting to visit one, tbh I'm not really all that big on traveling. I'm the type that starts driving and within 30 minutes as anxious to get out of the car lol. If I were to choose a country to visit, it would be Scotland, but it's just not something I've ever seriously considered. I did go to boston once though. Let me tell you, being a girl from an itty bitty town in kansas to boston may as well have been another country for how different it was lol
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: You may be right. I started out pretty much from 14 on knowing what i wanted to do after college, and knowing that i wouldn't need another language for it. Im not arguing that it can be an asset, i just don't agree with forcing someone to learn one.
You were forced to learn rudimentary math, English, history, some physical education, and science. All because each subject can make a good case for being essential to your being able to function in society.
You learned all that and still had room for elective classes. There's more than enough room in curriculum for schools to fill classrooms with students interested in learning the languages of commerce. You're likely going to be dealing with people who speak other languages in your lifetime. I mean heck, when I wrote my post about America not being an exception for bilingualism, I was called by a woman who needed assistance in Spanish, I couldn't help her, but I was able to ask her to hold and that I would redirect her call. The very next call was another woman struggling to speak to me in broken English. I'm quite good at understanding bad English, after getting her name it became obvious she was from China, so we continued the exchange in Mandarin. I could tell how relieved she was to have the fetters of English lifted for just a moment. She had clearly spent a lot of time learning English as I am sure we could have worked our way through the transaction all in English, but even peppering things with Chinese greased the wheels immensely.
Students who don't want to continue with language education are more than welcome to abandon whatever they have learned after high school, but I would still put language requirements in college. Mine had such a requirement, and most people grudgingly took Spanish so as to meet it. That tiny amount of instruction in Spanish will still serve them in way they can't really grasp yet.
To me people who don't want to learn any languages are the same people who insist they don't want to learn how to use a computer as it's an activity that's just too hard for them to grasp. Well, you can't really function in today's society very well either at work, or even in conversation if you are technologically illiterate. Likewise, in an international economy, those who can only speak one language have limitations placed on them.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
The ideas that these immigrants that make up 10-13% of the population are somehow forcing wages to stay low, and jacking up healthcare costs is ludicrous. [/QB]
Never said they were the reason that health care is crap and to expensive now days, or that they are forcing wages to stay low. Not sure where in a one time story of one experience in my life you got that idea from, but oh well. Read it how you want i suppose.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
The ideas that these immigrants that make up 10-13% of the population are somehow forcing wages to stay low, and jacking up healthcare costs is ludicrous.
Never said they were the reason that health care is crap and to expensive now days, or that they are forcing wages to stay low. Not sure where in a one time story of one experience in my life you got that idea from, but oh well. Read it how you want i suppose. [/QB]
Sorry if I'm misreading what you are intending to say. I more projecting what I hear many people say about illegal immigrants. Namely,
"Immigrants all get free healthcare while we all pay a fortune for it!"
and,
"Immigrants have taken all our jobs!"
Would you agree with either of those sentiments, it sounds like maybe not?
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: You may be right. I started out pretty much from 14 on knowing what i wanted to do after college, and knowing that i wouldn't need another language for it. Im not arguing that it can be an asset, i just don't agree with forcing someone to learn one.
You were forced to learn rudimentary math, English, history, some physical education, and science. All because each subject can make a good case for being essential to your being able to function in society.
You learned all that and still had room for elective classes. There's more than enough room in curriculum for schools to fill classrooms with students interested in learning the languages of commerce. You're likely going to be dealing with people who speak other languages in your lifetime. I mean heck, when I wrote my post about America not being an exception for bilingualism, I was called by a woman who needed assistance in Spanish, I couldn't help her, but I was able to ask her to hold and that I would redirect her call. The very next call was another woman struggling to speak to me in broken English. I'm quite good at understanding bad English, after getting her name it became obvious she was from China, so we continued the exchange in Mandarin. I could tell how relieved she was to have the fetters of English lifted for just a moment. She had clearly spent a lot of time learning English as I am sure we could have worked our way through the transaction all in English, but even peppering things with Chinese greased the wheels immensely.
Students who don't want to continue with language education are more than welcome to abandon whatever they have learned after high school, but I would still put language requirements in college. Mine had such a requirement, and most people grudgingly took Spanish so as to meet it. That tiny amount of instruction in Spanish will still serve them in way they can't really grasp yet.
To me people who don't want to learn any languages are the same people who insist they don't want to learn how to use a computer as it's an activity that's just too hard for them to grasp. Well, you can't really function in today's society very well either at work, or even in conversation if you are technologically illiterate. Likewise, in an international economy, those who can only speak one language have limitations placed on them.
Well, since i live in a little farm town in Kansas and don't work for an international coorperation, I don't need it. It's just my personal thing. Were i choosing a different path in life, I would make different decisions, but i'm not, so i don't need to know another language. (except maybe the language of mechanics, that sure would be cost effective) As for my son, The curriculum at our school not requires 2 semesters of foreign language, so he'll have to. Maybe it will come in handy for him in whatever career or life choices he makes. Don't know. So far all he's told me is that he wants to be a cow when he grows up.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Adelda:
The ideas that these immigrants that make up 10-13% of the population are somehow forcing wages to stay low, and jacking up healthcare costs is ludicrous.
Never said they were the reason that health care is crap and to expensive now days, or that they are forcing wages to stay low. Not sure where in a one time story of one experience in my life you got that idea from, but oh well. Read it how you want i suppose.
Sorry if I'm misreading what you are intending to say. I more projecting what I hear many people say about illegal immigrants. Namely,
"Immigrants all get free healthcare while we all pay a fortune for it!"
and,
"Immigrants have taken all our jobs!"
Would you agree with either of those sentiments, it sounds like maybe not? [/QB]
Not really, there's a lot of factors to take into account in that. I blame the government for more of it than anyone. And let's not get started on that conversation. I will admit that i dislike someone who does not pay taxes here getting healthcare for free when we have to pay quite a bit for it, but let's face it, i'm not going to like everything that happens, so i won't try to. My thing with the jobs was companies hiring out over seas. Ie the whole having the whole ( not sure what you call it) but when you call to talk to a company, the call is answered by someone in idia, for a company that is located here in the U.S. The whole point with that was that we need more jobs based over here instead of being outsourced to other countries in order to support the people who live here and will move here.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
By the way black, i may have to add yo to a friend list on here if they have one. (first day on this site and haven't explored it much) you are pretty fun to debate and chat with.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote: I will admit that i dislike someone who does not pay taxes here getting healthcare for free
Illegal immigrants pay taxes, frequently a lot of taxes. They pay sales taxes and property taxes, and very often income taxes; if they use fake documentation to get a job, they often pay more taxes than US citizens, because they're unable to receive any taxes back or any tax related subsidies (for instance, the Earned Income Tax Credit, which many poor illegal immigrants would qualify for if they were legal immigrants, not to mention Social Security benefits they'll never receive despite paying into the system -- six plus billions of dollars, specifically). So you see, your outrage was misplaced.
How did you know this person was an illegal immigrant, again?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: ... Let me tell you, being a girl from an itty bitty town in kansas to boston may as well have been another country for how different it was lol
Little steps, I guess. Don't stop pushing your boundaries. Travel can be immensely rewarding in many ways Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
As the originator of this thread, I have to say it's great to read all the comments from different people. I knew I was rather ignorant on the issue, so it's really good to get so much new information.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Well, since i live in a little farm town in Kansas and don't work for an international coorperation, I don't need it. It's just my personal thing. Were i choosing a different path in life, I would make different decisions, but i'm not, so i don't need to know another language.
Perhaps not. But we have a deep-seated need as humans to maintain a sense of progress, to contribute to personal growth and progression. While knowing another language may not be as practical for you as acquiring some other skill, I think you'll find that there are myriad rewards. Especially if you eventually run as far away from Kansas as you can, which I recommend strongly to anyone.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote:Especially if you eventually run as far away from Kansas as you can, which I recommend strongly to anyone.
Aw, that's a bit mean. Although admittedly, I've never been to Kansas... But I hear that there's no place like home.
I'd say that it's a valuable life experience, to visit a place where you have no idea at all of the language - it makes it much easier to understand the trials that others go through in your own country when they don't understand what people are saying, or what's going on.
When people have never experienced it, they often find it difficult to imagine how helpless and alone you can sometimes feel in those circumstances.
Plus, you know, seeing a bit of this great big beautiful world before you die is also a fun way to spend your time.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Adelda: By the way black, i may have to add yo to a friend list on here if they have one. (first day on this site and haven't explored it much) you are pretty fun to debate and chat with.
Unfortunately this forum is not equipped with such a friend's list. It would have been nice when I was new, I remember it taking a very long time before I could nail down who five or so people were. In the meantime I just conversed without assuming much about the person I was talking to because I honestly couldn't remember a thing about them.
I don't think anybody gave you the traditional Hatrack welcome though...
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
quote: I don't think anybody gave you the traditional Hatrack welcome though...
The one with the hugs and cookies, or the one where she is wrong? Whatever. New person. Hi new person! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't think anybody gave you the traditional Hatrack welcome though...
Just to clarify, the traditional Ornery welcome is "you are wrong." The traditional Hatrack welcome is to be burninated/eaten by Slash the Berserker.
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
nice Tom lol. I will leave kansas eventually. Lived in Washington for a while, till my folks got sick. I'm staying here till their gone though. Someone'e gotta take care of them.
Posted by lobo (Member # 1761) on :
Americans don't need to learn another language. Privilege of the super power. Everyone else who wants to interact with us needs to learn English.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Everyone who wants to jack you needs to learn English. As a tourist, be very suspicious of people who approach you speaking English and who charge in USD Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Why would a farmer from Kansas ever need to know a different language?
1) The people you sell your crops to may be selling them around the world. Hence your corn may be going to China or Libya or Mexico.
2) The people you hire to help with your farm may be from other countries. They have more experience farming than most Americans. Can you tell a legal from an illegal immigrant?
3) Your neighbors may one day come from another country. Would it scare you to think that they are talking in a language you couldn't understand? What could they be saying about you.
4)Weather changes, so the crops you are planting this year may have to change in 10 years. This means a whole new group of vendors, clients, and contacts.
5)While the seeds you are planting probably come from the US (go Monsanto), the tractor you are using, the tools you are using, perhaps even the technology you are using do not.
The problem isn't that you need to know a different language. The problem is that in this global economy, you need to know many of them, and we just don't have time to learn them all.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Mucus, walking through a market in China with my father in law was an interesting experience. We were walking single file. Vendors might glance at my father in law, but they never spoke to him, basically ignored him. Then they ssaw my husband and kinda looked confused, but basically ignored him. And then there was me- the blond eyed, blue haired girl (I was 22 at the time). I was swarmed with vendors shouting all sorts of offers. Just seeing the difference in how they responded to us as we walked by was very amusing. Also, we knew a few Chinese words that we used whenever possible. It was amazing how quickly uttering a simple phrase with a horrible accent changed the way we were treated compared to the other Americans we traveled with. It was like we went from stupid Americans to take advantage of to savvy Americans to take advantage of. Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Blonde eyed, blue-haired?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Why would a farmer from Kansas ever need to know a different language?
6) bartering with the reconquista overlords
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Blonde eyed, blue-haired?
That's stop traffic anywhere.
Except Japan I suppose.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
scholarette: I know that feeling all too well.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
scholarette: Yeah, I can totally imagine. (I forget, what do your husband and father in law look like?)
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
I was guessing that father-in-law is Chinese, and husband is half-Chinese, from what she said.
My (dark haired, dark eyed parents) still tell stories about the treatment I (blonde, blue eyed) got when they took me to Israel as a young child. I just remember that I had a wonderful time!
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Father in law is chinese (and we are going to Hong Kong in less than a month to visit him with girls!) and my husband is half. Our kids show no signs of their Asian side at all, though the oldest goes by her Chinese name almost exclusively, which totally confuses people. Interesting, my husband's brother married a blue eyed, blond haired pale German (like me, but I am much prettier) and their daughter looks Chinese. My sister in law says Chinese people come up to her all the time and say, oh, you adopted from China!
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Why would a farmer from Kansas ever need to know a different language?
1) The people you sell your crops to may be selling them around the world. Hence your corn may be going to China or Libya or Mexico.
2) The people you hire to help with your farm may be from other countries. They have more experience farming than most Americans. Can you tell a legal from an illegal immigrant?
3) Your neighbors may one day come from another country. Would it scare you to think that they are talking in a language you couldn't understand? What could they be saying about you.
4)Weather changes, so the crops you are planting this year may have to change in 10 years. This means a whole new group of vendors, clients, and contacts.
5)While the seeds you are planting probably come from the US (go Monsanto), the tractor you are using, the tools you are using, perhaps even the technology you are using do not.
The problem isn't that you need to know a different language. The problem is that in this global economy, you need to know many of them, and we just don't have time to learn them all.
Not good at the quote thing, but i'll answer these since they are extremely valid questions and well thought out.
1.) I'm not actually a farmer, just grew up in a farming town, so needless to say don't sell crops 2.)Again, won't hire farmers for reason above lol. as to knowing, other then looking at their documentation, wouldn't know. 3.)honestly don't really care what other people may or may not think of me unless I know them well, and respect them. 4.) same as number 1 5.) Same as number one
Again all valid arguments that would apply to me if I actually farmed.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
What do you do?
Posted by Adelda (Member # 12642) on :
I do mainly computer repair, but i also do some database work. Own my own business doing it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Nobody really needs to know a 'foreign language.' Thing is, it's really wonderful to be able to speak another language, and it's not something that should be categorically rejected because of some principle about national language (same too with rejecting visitation of a part of the world because you aren't fluent in its official language). Spanish in particular is going to continue to become more prominent and rewarding a language in the united states as more and more people speak it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Nobody really needs to know a 'foreign language.' Thing is, it's really wonderful to be able to speak another language, and it's not something that should be categorically rejected because of some principle about national language (same too with rejecting visitation of a part of the world because you aren't fluent in its official language). Spanish in particular is going to continue to become more prominent and rewarding a language in the united states as more and more people speak it.
You didn't capitalize United States, you're anti-American!!!!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee:
quote:Especially if you eventually run as far away from Kansas as you can, which I recommend strongly to anyone.
Aw, that's a bit mean. Although admittedly, I've never been to Kansas... But I hear that there's no place like home.
Flat open land and sky in every direction as far as you can see. There seems almost nothing in Kansas that is unlike everything else. It is an incredible thing to see, and everyone should see something like that once in their lives.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Father in law is chinese (and we are going to Hong Kong in less than a month to visit him with girls!) and my husband is half. Our kids show no signs of their Asian side at all, though the oldest goes by her Chinese name almost exclusively, which totally confuses people. Interesting, my husband's brother married a blue eyed, blond haired pale German (like me, but I am much prettier) and their daughter looks Chinese. My sister in law says Chinese people come up to her all the time and say, oh, you adopted from China!
The really interesting thing will be to see what your grandkids end up looking like (supposing that your kids also marry white people). You never know- sometimes the only trait remaining is incongruously dark eyes, and sometimes the eyes are green, and everything else looks Asian. I knew all kinds of halfies and other mixed people in school.
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