She should have been rebuked but Food Network firing her is overkill.
[/black guy]
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Wait, so an old lady raised in the South admits to having used the word nigger at some point in the past, and she gets fired for it?
Pure idiocy.
It's not like she admitted saying it last week or this decade or anything like that.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
You should say "the n word" instead of spelling it out. Reported.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Because she's got a right to this job that focuses heavily on how likable she is considered by the public, yeah.
What was that about 'pure idiocy' again?
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
Not sure how likable she is or not. My only experience of her is watching her guide for making peach cobbler on youtube. I messed up the peach cobbler but I found her likeable enough in that segment. Is she hated by the public or something?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
The food network decided they'd take more flak from keeping her than it was worth. It's not about whether she deserved to be fired. (Just as her success earlier on was not about what she deserved, either.)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Like or not, public personalities don't have the same free speech and what not rights that everyone else does. Their marketability is contingent on them not becoming damaged goods. Once she becomes more trouble than she's worth, they're well within their rights to fire her.
If the controversy really is that she said it sometime in her past and not recently and not publicly, then I really don't understand what the kerfuffle is. I was under the impression she said it very recently, in public, in which case I think it's fair game to fire her.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I have to disagree with you about publicity-oriented people not having the same free speech rights as those who aren't in that business, Lyrhawn. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but there isn't anything freedom of speech has to say about keeping a gig that relies on people liking you (and by association, your employer) when they don't like you.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What I meant was, employers are under no legal or moral obligation to continue supporting you as a public figure when you've said something that harms their business.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
That's not limited to public figures, though. It's not really a matter of free speech, either. If I work for Joe's Donut Shop and he hears me talking about what a terrible place it is and how crap the donuts are, he can fire me.
And if it turns out some labor law says he can't I'm gonna be especially flabbergasted and libertarian-ey.
The right to free speech should protect you from violence and forcible stifling. It shouldn't protect you from suffering any negative consequences of what you say.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Lyrhawn
She was asked in a deposition or trial or something if she had ever, in the past, used the word. She said yes, of course she had, and seeing as how she's an old lady from Georgia I for one would have assumed she had even if she was never asked or denied it.
Sa'eed
This is an adult forum. Nigger is not a curse word, and it was not used in the context of referring to anyone, on this board or elsewhere. If the moderator decides that we can not type the word, then he can let me know, and I can roll my eyes and snicker and just type the word black instead.
Rakeesh
The idiocy is on the part of the people who raised a ruckus and pressured the network to fire her. That was a common word in the South, used by all races until a few decades ago, (and no doubt still used by plenty of good ole boys down there.) She's almost seventy. If she used the word in her youth, that doesn't make her a bad person, and it doesn't mean she should lose her job, no matter what a bunch of oversensitive putas think.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Don't let Sa'eed troll you. We pretty much ignore him, except when reporting him for multiple hate speeches.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
She was asked these questions in a deposition because she was being sued over a hostile work environment at the restaurant she and her brother own. It wasn't about whether she'd used the word generally sometime in the past. And her responses were cringe-worthy.
Add to that the fact Food Network was already taking flak because her show glamorizes a diet that leads to obesity, heart disease, and diabetes, and that she revealed that she's developed Type II diabetes and is now the spokesperson for a diabetes drug, rather than advocating diet change.
I suspect Food Network decided that her public face right now represents the worst stereotypes of southern food and culture and they chose not to renew her show once the current season is over.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's not a situation of old racial slurs. Clearly you haven't read much about the story if you think so.
Dkw is right about her diabetes, too. I didn't know this, but she (Deen) had type II diabetes for three years before informing the public. That means that her dangerously unhealthy diet had led to that disease, and she continued peddling it without a word to the very real risks involved. And when she does, it's to help hawk a drug which she is also being paid for. May her endorsements dry up and she fade into obscurity.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 7625) on :
PSA: Many of the things you see on food shows are bad for you. Sorry if no one mentioned this to you before.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sure it is. But you would be surprised (well, probably not, really) just how many Americans have a very vague, 'it's not a real problem' notion of how dangerous obesity and morbid obesity can be-and how much some of the common styles of cuisine really contribute.
Anyway, we make booze and tobacco slap warnings on an advertisement. It's not at all strange or unreasonable for me to imagine some required up-front nutritional information, too, in places like restaurants or cooking shows. I'm a bit squeamish on the issue of government requirement, but as for popular requirements for outliers such as Deen-no problem.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
You know, Deen doesn't look that obese to me. A little overweight, but not grossly fat. Lots of old people pack on a few pounds like that.
A high fat diet isn't really a factor in developing type 2 diabetes. Being really overweight and inactive is, and eating a diet high in carbohydrates in general and simple sugar carbs specifically. A low carb atkins-style diet is one of the healthier ones for diabetics, so long as they don't take in so much fat that they gain weight.
Getting older and genetics can also contribute to the body developing insulin resistance.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Not that I feel -really- sorry for her. She's got all the money she'll ever need, and can go live out the rest of her life on a beach somewhere.
If she enjoys teaching cooking that much, she can. Just probably not to as wide of an audience. (Although some sort of Youtube deal would probably work.)
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
quote:Paula Deen's actual unsanitized quote: Well what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know in the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around. Now, that would be a true Southern wedding wouldn’t it? But we can’t do that because the media would be on me about that.
And here's the context just in case someone wants to argue she's being unfairly quoted.
quote:LA Times Article: The civil complaint, which was filed Monday in state court in Savannah, Ga., was brought by Lisa T. Jackson, a former manager at Uncle Bubba's Oyster House, one of five restaurants in Deen's group. The Savannah-based oyster house is co-owned by Deen and her brother, Earl W. “Bubba” Hiers.
Much of the 33-page complaint details what it says was boorish and racist behavior by Hiers, including accusations that he physically intimidated employees, displayed pornography at work, acted toward Jackson in a sexually degrading manner — including forcibly kissing her cheek and spitting on her — and repeatedly using racial epithets.
Deen, Hiers and a number of Deen-owned companies are named as defendants in the suit, which seeks unspecified damages for sexual harassment, infliction of emotional distress, and other charges. Jackson, 48, left the oyster house job in August 2010.
Calls to Deen's Savannah business office, seeking comment from her and Hiers, were referred to the Rose Group, a Los Angeles-based “brand relations agency.” Calls to the Rose Group were not returned Monday.
Jackson — a white woman who managed a number African American employees — claims that over the course of five years, she made “numerous and frequent” complaints of racial and sexual harassment and other abusive treatment to Deen and others in her restaurant group’s upper management, but they declined to act, even though the conduct was “universally known.”
It is unclear what effect the allegations will have on Deen, who, according to her website, has risen to the status of “American lifestyle icon,” with her combination of charming Southern shtick and gut-busting comfort food, including an egg-topped bacon burger with a doughnut bun. She is the star of two Food Network shows and the author of cookbooks that have sold more than 8 million copies.
Perhaps the most explosive allegation in the suit is that Deen, a frequent guest on the Oprah Winfrey show, used the epithet. Jackson claims that she was in charge of the food for Hiers’ 2007 wedding and asked Deen what look the wedding should have.
Is there anyone besides the woman suing Dean for a buttload of cash who says she said that?
Also, I'd never even considered a bacon burger with egg on top served on a doughnut bun, but it sounds amazing and I really want to try one now.
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
Yeah, Deen admitted she said it.
quote:From Fox News, LOL: According to the reports, in the deposition, Deen replied “Yes, of course,” when asked if she used the N-word.
Deen also reportedly admitted telling racist jokes, explaining: “It’s just what they are — they’re jokes…most jokes are about Jewish people, rednecks, black folks…I can’t determine what offends another person.”
Jackson said also Deen wanted African-American employees to act like slaves for a big wedding she was planning. Deen explained she got the idea from a restaurant where "the whole entire waiter staff was middle-aged black men, and they had on beautiful white jackets with a black bow tie," the National Enquirer reports. The magazine also quoted Deen as saying: “I mean, it was really impressive. That restaurant represented a certain era in America…after the Civil War, during the Civil War, before the Civil War…It was not only black men, it was black women…I would say they were slaves.”
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Hah. Okay, I'll admit, she's quite unpleasant.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Paula Deen's actual unsanitized quote: Well what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know in the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around. Now, that would be a true Southern wedding wouldn’t it? But we can’t do that because the media would be on me about that.
And here's the context just in case someone wants to argue she's being unfairly quoted.
quote:LA Times Article: The civil complaint, which was filed Monday in state court in Savannah, Ga., was brought by Lisa T. Jackson, a former manager at Uncle Bubba's Oyster House, one of five restaurants in Deen's group. The Savannah-based oyster house is co-owned by Deen and her brother, Earl W. “Bubba” Hiers.
Much of the 33-page complaint details what it says was boorish and racist behavior by Hiers, including accusations that he physically intimidated employees, displayed pornography at work, acted toward Jackson in a sexually degrading manner — including forcibly kissing her cheek and spitting on her — and repeatedly using racial epithets.
Deen, Hiers and a number of Deen-owned companies are named as defendants in the suit, which seeks unspecified damages for sexual harassment, infliction of emotional distress, and other charges. Jackson, 48, left the oyster house job in August 2010.
Calls to Deen's Savannah business office, seeking comment from her and Hiers, were referred to the Rose Group, a Los Angeles-based “brand relations agency.” Calls to the Rose Group were not returned Monday.
Jackson — a white woman who managed a number African American employees — claims that over the course of five years, she made “numerous and frequent” complaints of racial and sexual harassment and other abusive treatment to Deen and others in her restaurant group’s upper management, but they declined to act, even though the conduct was “universally known.”
It is unclear what effect the allegations will have on Deen, who, according to her website, has risen to the status of “American lifestyle icon,” with her combination of charming Southern shtick and gut-busting comfort food, including an egg-topped bacon burger with a doughnut bun. She is the star of two Food Network shows and the author of cookbooks that have sold more than 8 million copies.
Perhaps the most explosive allegation in the suit is that Deen, a frequent guest on the Oprah Winfrey show, used the epithet. Jackson claims that she was in charge of the food for Hiers’ 2007 wedding and asked Deen what look the wedding should have.
I feel ill.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah this seriously for serious comes from a conversation, Deen explains, where she was romanticizing romantic ol' slavery timez restauraunt where you could be served by pleasant smiling negro boys who knew their places and were real polite yassir
it was simultaneously really disturbing and also completely not out of character with Shit We Let Antebellum Nostalgics Get Away With
The South
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Is the restaurant called Moonlight and Magnolias?
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I don't really care much about this, but when I was on the treadmill at the gym the other day, they played all this on one of the screens and I ended up learning about it. Having said that, I don't really think this is a big deal. The big deal is what samp said, which is that she wanted to start a restaurant about slavery, which is crazy. Everyone has at one point or another said the N-word, but she didn't say it recently and so I find that whole thing mute.
I can't believe she lost her job (didn't know that), but I guess it makes sense given how sensitive people are to these things. Personally speaking, I can't put myself in a black person's shoes, so I don't know if this whole thing was actually offensive to that culture, but I personally don't care.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
If you think the only thing that really happened was Deen waxing wistful for a slavery-toned restaurant, then I'm afraid you didn't get the whole story, Jeff. Deen has herself admitted to more than that, and not in the distant past, either.
Also, I should say that not everyone has 'used' that particular slur. By that I mean myself for example have used it to quote a song, a story, a film, so on and so forth, but never as an actual 'this is what I mean, personally' casual usage. Or any other racial slurs for that matter. To give that statement some qualification, unfortunately I can't say the same thing about homophobic or misogynistic words-but that likely has a very great deal to do with the one category being completely out of bounds among my friends, family, etc, and the other two categories being considered bad and impolite words usually in mixed company but not actually taboo.
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
As a lifetime resident of the South and as someone who was once a young idiot, I will cop to having used the n-word several times. However, despite the circumstances I do not excuse myself. I knew it was wrong when I did it and unlike Paula Deen, I feel like a piece of shit now whenever I think back on it. She honestly doesn't think she's doing anything wrong aside from getting caught by the media.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: If you think the only thing that really happened was Deen waxing wistful for a slavery-toned restaurant, then I'm afraid you didn't get the whole story, Jeff. Deen has herself admitted to more than that, and not in the distant past, either.
What else did I miss?
quote:Also, I should say that not everyone has 'used' that particular slur. By that I mean myself for example have used it to quote a song, a story, a film, so on and so forth, but never as an actual 'this is what I mean, personally' casual usage. Or any other racial slurs for that matter. To give that statement some qualification, unfortunately I can't say the same thing about homophobic or misogynistic words-but that likely has a very great deal to do with the one category being completely out of bounds among my friends, family, etc, and the other two categories being considered bad and impolite words usually in mixed company but not actually taboo.
You said you used it to quote something. I've never used it derogitorily, either, but I've said it, which is my point. Now, I have certainly used other terms derogitorily when I was younger, like gay slurs and whatnot, because when you're in middle school, it's pretty standard to call your friends that. Anyway, my point is just that we've all had experiences where we've used a term that we probably shouldn't---a term that might offend another person in a certain situation. None of us are innocent, really.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
That's exactly it. We might have used it while we were learning how to use language appropriately. Some of us might have even learned to stop using it in our adult years.
Paula Deen is the sort of person where were she around certain people (such as family), discussing certain topics (how great things used to be in the South, or black people) she wouldn't hesitate to continue using it in a derogatory fashion.
She's welcome to her speech, but I wouldn't associate with her in a professional or personal capacity.
When my grandma recently saw two white people with a black daughter and said, "That little girl is very cute for a black girl." She might have consciously meant to say the girl was cute, but she has residual racist beliefs she was raised with and that came along for the ride.
We tell her to knock that garbage off, and that it's beneath her. She recognized that what she said was offensive, so there's that. But the moment she hems or haws about why she should be excused, or why it's not really that bad of a remark, we hammer it back in that she's being a racist. She needs that if she's ever going to *not* be racist.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Jeff,
If none of us are innocent what's the point of getting upset about anything, ever? Because I had a bad, unthinking habit of calling someone gay as an insult in high school that means I can't consider it wrong and out of bounds for Deen to casually throw around racial slurs at work to employees while her husband watches porn in the office?
Posted by MikeMarine (Member # 12859) on :
The sad part is the literally hundreds of professional, semi-professional and amateur rappers who use the word scores of times daily and get away with demeaning their primary audience besides their anti-women lyrics.
What's their punishment?
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Jeff,
If none of us are innocent what's the point of getting upset about anything, ever? Because I had a bad, unthinking habit of calling someone gay as an insult in high school that means I can't consider it wrong and out of bounds for Deen to casually throw around racial slurs at work to employees while her husband watches porn in the office?
You're quoting a very specific example of something I don't know anything about. All I know is that she admitted to using a racial slur over two decades ago.
If she did this recently and actually called someone that without provocation, then yes, I certainly do think it's wrong and I find it deplorable. However, if she said it 2-3 decades ago and it didn't in the workplace or in a professional level, I'm not sure it still matters.
As I said, however, if she actually did throw racial slurs around like that in her professional occupation, then yes, sure, she deserves to be punished.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MikeMarine: The sad part is the literally hundreds of professional, semi-professional and amateur rappers who use the word scores of times daily and get away with demeaning their primary audience besides their anti-women lyrics.
What's their punishment?
Well, they don't get shows on The Food Network for one.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
And then there's also the matter of, you know, that audience themselves getting a say in how demeaned they are (by which I mean the use of racial slurs in rap is by no means non-controversial among quite a lot of African Americans), which is a horse of a very different color (no pun intended) from Deen's "gee whiz a slavery theme would just be nifty" school of wedding planning.
The same can be said, to a lesser extent, of misogynistic slurs. It's heard more and more and criticized how demeaning to women much of rap actually is. But all of this has very little to do, as BlackBlade aptly pointed out, with the non-renewal of Deen's food network contract.
But as someone who basically said 'but black people say it!' I'm sure you were conscious of all that context, Mike.
----
Jeff,
Deen has admitted to more than you learned about in her own deposition, and contradicted herself as well. Sometimes it's a word that they don't use (in a 'mean' way), sometimes she says her brother doesn't say it (even though he admits to it), jokes are almost all targeted towards various racial or sexual groups, she wouldn't object to the word told in a 'non-mean' way at home but she doesn't tell jokes at home (what?), but her husband tells a lot of jokes, etc.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Rappers make that music. People want to hear it and buy it, don't mind what they hear, and come back to buy more.
I don't see why there needs to be punishment.
Deen has, way or another, pissed off the people who used to "listen" to her. This is why she is recieving "punishment" and the rappers aren't.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Paula was fired for two reasons:
1) Her on-air personality of a nice motherly southern woman was tarnished by her attitude towards people of a darker skin tones. You expect a rapper to use foul language. You don't expect you sweet grandmother too.
2) It was not just that she admitted using the "n word" at times in the past, but that she used it recently in the management of her restaurant and the way she treated her employees. She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.
If you are upset that she lost her job because she has not changed her views on race, pity the people she has fired in the past because of their race. She has enough money to live off of, her restaurant employees do not. She can change her attitude--her employees can not change their skin color.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.
No, it was legal in 1953. That doesn't mean it was ok.
Just wanted to make sure that distinction is clear.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Jeff,
Deen has admitted to more than you learned about in her own deposition, and contradicted herself as well. Sometimes it's a word that they don't use (in a 'mean' way), sometimes she says her brother doesn't say it (even though he admits to it), jokes are almost all targeted towards various racial or sexual groups, she wouldn't object to the word told in a 'non-mean' way at home but she doesn't tell jokes at home (what?), but her husband tells a lot of jokes, etc.
Yeah, I didn't know about all that.
Honestly though, is anyone really all that surprised? The woman is an old southern lady with obvious roots in that culture. I'm from the South and I grew up hearing racial slurs of every sort, especially when it comes to blacks and hispanics. I find racism deplorable and I really don't think she should be allowed to do what she did, but the fact that people are acting so shocked that someone like her would say stuff like that is a little strange.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by narrativium:
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.
No, it was legal in 1953. That doesn't mean it was ok.
Just wanted to make sure that distinction is clear.
I don't think he disagrees with you, he just didn't use a more precise word in his sentence.
Not many people in South would have batted an eye if you said, "I don't think a black person should be paid like a white one."
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
In Alabama in 1953 they would have batted an eye on the phrase "black person". Some didn't think those two words went together.
Posted by ScottF (Member # 9356) on :
The poison around "nigger" has always troubled me. Years ago I was in a movie theater restroom in Canada and a black guy and his buddy were also in there. As I'm taking a pee, the guy loudly says "Did you just call me a nigger?". God's honest truth, I didn't even know how to react. I kind of mumbled "uh, what..no" and got the hell out of there. What would you have done?
I have no idea what the guy's motivation was. Maybe he wanted to have some fun and show his buddy how he could make anyone squirm instantly. Whatever his reasons, it really made me mad afterward.
What shocked me was my paralysis when confronted like that. How could something as innocuous as a 2 syllable word cause a (relatively) intelligent adult to panic? Because it bullshit, that's why. You can't have a massively popular sub culture commonly use the word as entertainment street cred AND simultaneously claim that it is such a painful reminder of past horrors that anyone else even suspected of saying it should be publicly drawn and quartered.
As far as Deen goes, I really don't care about her. I'd never even heard about her before this and I have zero interest in her or defending whatever stupid stuff she's said. It's the toxicity around the word really pisses me off.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:You can't have a massively popular sub culture commonly use the word as entertainment street cred AND simultaneously claim that it is such a painful reminder of past horrors that anyone else even suspected of saying it should be publicly drawn and quartered.
First of all, why not? Second, you're vastly overstating both the popularity of this sub-culture and the penalty to people using it. The latter seeks hyperbolic, but it feels like you really do believe this sub-culture is hugely popular. I submit that because of your own (understandable) sensitivity to the word's usage, 'blameless' uses of it register much more strongly in your mind.
Let's see, third the 'massively popular sub-culture' and the people most strongly opposing the use of the word aren't the same people. Fourth, words mean different things from different people in different contexts, and expecting universality of connotation is silly. Fifth, chill out. Unless I'm mistaken, your particular racial and gender group still by a large margin disproportionately controls government, economy, and the media. You can't say a word with impunity, and (you feel) some other people can.
Umm...sorry?
Posted by ScottF (Member # 9356) on :
1. Because..hypocrisy? 2. Obviously I was using hyperbole. Hip hop culture is big, ironically among the kids who have nothing in common with it. My biggest issue with hip hop is that, with a few exceptions, the "music" flat out sucks. 3. I completely agree with you. 4. I'm not expecting universal connotation. Just a narrowing of the gap. 5. Do you really think my beef is that I wish I could use the word with impunity, or at all? Seriously? I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards. No need to apologize, I'm chill as a fridge.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards.
what double standards
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:1. Because..hypocrisy? 2. Obviously I was using hyperbole. Hip hop culture is big, ironically among the kids who have nothing in common with it. My biggest issue with hip hop is that, with a few exceptions, the "music" flat out sucks. 3. I completely agree with you. 4. I'm not expecting universal connotation. Just a narrowing of the gap. 5. Do you really think my beef is that I wish I could use the word with impunity, or at all? Seriously? I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards. No need to apologize, I'm chill as a fridge.
1. You've reiterated your initial point without any additional argument. Why is it hypocrisy? Words have context. Who says them, when, where, how, and to whom can change their meaning and how they'll be received. This is something every single human being knows, but for some reason many of us forget when there's a word we feel we don't get to say and should, or others get to say and shouldn't. That's when we tend to throw that basic level communication knowledge out the window.
2. You'll have to excuse me for wondering just how much attention you've paid to hip-hop music and with how objective an eye, and also for wondering why you should be any different from every single human generation ever that thinks the music kids these days listen to sucks. Furthermore, while there are a lot of surveys out there, many of them list hip hop as far from highest or even top five on the list of favorite music among teens. Go take a look.
3. If you completely agree, what on Earth is the basis of the rest of your complaints?
4. Yes you are. Or at least you're upset in your post that you don't have it.
5. I didn't say you wanted to, I said you were upset that other people could use it with (what you felt) was impunity and linked that to your getting in trouble and feeling anxious even if you're accused of using it.
As for commenting on a double standard, it would be one thing if you commented on a double standard, but you did more than that. You expressed a bunch of contradictory or exaggerated reasons why it was a double standard, ignored the simple reality that words have context, and expressed that you were shocked, anxious, and pissed off. You'll have to excuse me for not thinking you were refrigerated.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
There are plenty of young African-American males who would be HIGHLY offended if they heard a white person use the n-word. Plenty of those same young men enjoy hip-hop a great deal.
I'm starting to wonder if ANY of you actually know any young black men. Seriously, I'm wondering. The fact that I'm the first person to point out that plenty of young black men love hip-hop and HATE it when white people use the word is...fairly telling, maybe.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
What's fairly telling is that more than one person before you remarked on exactly that in this and many past similar threads without, apparently, being noticed by you.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: What's fairly telling is that more than one person before you remarked on exactly that in this and many past similar threads without, apparently, being noticed by you.
And yet you seem to believe it's not factual, which begs the question.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Ok, if you think I believe that many African-Americans (not just men) enjoy hip hop don't mind when they use that word among themselves to themselves, but do mind when outsiders do...
Yeah, Ok, it's not often I agree with Samprimary this much, but great job dressing people down for what your strawmen said. I specifically pointed out that some African-Americans *do* regard the word differently depending on who used it. I wasn't alone, either, and furthermore this is pretty entry-level stuff when it comes to this sort of discussion. I'm not sure why on Earth anyone would think they had a lock on that thinking.
You're not a visionary, Steven. You're just another guy gabbing about current events, not unlike the rest of us. It's baffling that you think you've got the status or wisdom to put on these sorts of airs.
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
I'm confused. What are you two arguing about?
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
He used gay slurs: "(I’d) put my foot up your f---king a$$, George Stark, but I’m sure you’d dig it too much" and "I’m gonna find you, George Stark, you toxic little queen, and I’m gonna f---k...you...up."
There will be outrage from the media about his use of gay slurs, right? Capitol One will fire him as their ad man, surely. After all, if Paula Deen's words were worth a boycott, then surely Baldwin's are too, right?
I guess we'll see. But since Baldwin has behaved this way before with little-to-no consequence, I doubt it.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Twitter - Helping people skip the cooldown time between being really pissed off and finding the person you're pissed off at since 2006.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's more than just words, Dustin, in Deen's case. Toxic though Baldwin's remarks were, it would appear that's all they were. Nice attempt at some conservative outrage, though.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
Is it more than just words? How so? Deen's testimony was that she *said* racist things. While it's true that she is being accused of creating a hostile work environment, that is still in court and undecided (at least legally).
Since I don't know Deen or Baldwin personally, I have no way of knowing their true intentions or motivations. I can only go by their words.
Nice attempt at deflection, though.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It wasn't an attempt at deflection, it was an illustration of your ignorance of the details of this little controversy. Deen is not only in hot water because she once used a racial slur. Look it up. Basic level stuff on this matter that you should've known already if you were gonna claim to venture an informed opinion, but mistakes happen. At this point, though, if you're gonna persist in claiming that this is all it's about, you'll be marking yourself unworthy of being taken seriously.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
It does bring up an interesting question though, at least to me. Would she have been fired if the only charge was creating a hostile work environment? If everything else was true but no mention is ever made of any kind of racial slur, would she still have her job?
My guess is yes. I'm no expert on the gourmet restaurant business but I get the impression from various shows that many of the top chefs are very difficult and demanding people to work for. So this would be no big deal in the gourmet world until the racial slurs come out.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, there's probably some truth to that-businesses and owners can navigate through the rocky waters of less incendiary hostile workplace situations, but even without the racial overtones involved there's apparently a good stiff dose of misogyny and some pretty substantial sexual harassment, too.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps: There will be outrage from the media about his use of gay slurs, right? Capitol One will fire him as their ad man, surely. After all, if Paula Deen's words were worth a boycott, then surely Baldwin's are too, right?
Baldwin would already have been dropped by Capitol One and numerous other sponsorships and created a rampage of criticism that would have dwarfed the Dean controversy if, in his twitter meltdown, he had called someone a nigger or referred to black people as niggers. Like, absolutely no question. Since you seem to be completely failing to account for this in your little question here, I don't know what you think this comparison demonstrates, or what the event is going to prove if Baldwin doesn't get shitcanned from Capitol One. Do you need to be individually waking up to the already well-known reality that anti-homophobia lags way behind anti-racism in this country, and we give way more of an ignorant pass to hurtful homophobic shit than we would to hurtful racist shit? Did you completely ignore the non-equivalence in this country between racism and homophobia in order to presume that the critical variable in this comparison is that Baldwin is a protected class of liberals that would get away with what Dean did, and Dean didn't because she's seen more as a conservative person?
(these are all rhetorical questions ofc, i assume this already)
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: It wasn't an attempt at deflection, it was an illustration of your ignorance of the details of this little controversy. Deen is not only in hot water because she once used a racial slur. Look it up. Basic level stuff on this matter that you should've known already if you were gonna claim to venture an informed opinion, but mistakes happen. At this point, though, if you're gonna persist in claiming that this is all it's about, you'll be marking yourself unworthy of being taken seriously.
Rakeesh, saying "You're wrong because you're uninformed" is a pretty clear deflection.
I've read all 149 pages of Paula Deen's deposition. Have you? Because if you haven't, then you are in no position to call me uninformed.
There are two things that Paula Deen is being lambasted for, and both are things she said. One is her admitted use of the n-word a long time ago. The second is her remarks about her brother's wedding and how she wanted a bunch of "n-words wearing bow ties." She admits the gist of that story, but denies using the n-word at the time.
Every single other allegation in the deposition is directed toward her brother, who was in charge of the restaurant. Those allegations - that black employees had to use a separate restroom, that her brother forced employees to hear sexual jokes and look at porn, and that management ignored complaints - are still just allegations. They might be true, but they also might not.
So please, tell me what - other than words - Paula Deen is losing sponsorships over. And please, don't make yourself look silly by declaring someone uninformed for no reason.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Paula Deen is losing her sponsorships because of a public backlash against the story. The public are the ones who ultimately decide whether paying someone to be a sponsor is worth it. Whether you consider it fair or not, that's how business works.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
Indeed. And that's probably why Baldwin will not get fired from his various jobs. Mainly for the reasons Samp already mentioned but also, his words do not seem as harsh to me. I'm not gay so can't really speak on how offensive or not something is but queen and bitch seem a lot less offensive than the n-word or fa... word. Admittedly, I could be wrong about that.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obama: Paula Deen is losing her sponsorships because of a public backlash against the story. The public are the ones who ultimately decide whether paying someone to be a sponsor is worth it. Whether you consider it fair or not, that's how business works.
I completely agree with that. It's the public perception - fed by the media - that really ended up hurting Paula Deen.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Indeed. And that's probably why Baldwin will not get fired from his various jobs. Mainly for the reasons Samp already mentioned but also, his words do not seem as harsh to me. I'm not gay so can't really speak on how offensive or not something is but queen and bitch seem a lot less offensive than the n-word or fa... word. Admittedly, I could be wrong about that.
The issue is less in any objective difference in how harmful that language is to the marginalized community it targets, it's that too much of america still gives homophobic language a pass even when that homophobic language should be equally criticized.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: ]The issue is less in any objective difference in how harmful that language is to the marginalized community it targets, it's that too much of america still gives homophobic language a pass even when that homophobic language should be equally criticized.
I agree, which is why I said mostly for your reasons. But there are also varying degrees of offensiveness within each respective category. If Baldwin had used the F...t word, would he still get a pass? Maybe but I bet the criticism would be much higher. If Paula Deen had stated that she never had and never would use the n. word but admitted to using negro or colored in the past, would she still be fired?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Honestly, I think far worse than her use of the word "nigger" was her attempt to describe the halcyon experience of being waited on by abnormally polite and servile black men who dressed to a preferred standard, and why she wanted to recreate that experience for other people.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Here is a great view on the topic An Afro-American cook reminds us that most of the food Ms. Dean is famous far came out of slave kitchens. The African influence in BBQ, Grits, Hoecakes, etc is ignored in favor of Southern Cooking is the Great Southern White Tradition. That is a greater crime.
At the Republican Convention a year ago some fools made a stink when they argued something like, "We shouldn't apologize for slavery. We gave those slaves food and shelter." A lot of distance and disgust was directed at those fools. What was never said was, "No--the slaves built the shelters and grew, cooked, and served the food. Who was it just given to?"
Blatant bigotry is no longer the main evil being done. Its the uncaring lie that, "those lazy Africans didn't do anything worth remembering" that needs to be fought.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: There are plenty of young African-American males who would be HIGHLY offended if they heard a white person use the n-word. Plenty of those same young men enjoy hip-hop a great deal.
I'm starting to wonder if ANY of you actually know any young black men. Seriously, I'm wondering. The fact that I'm the first person to point out that plenty of young black men love hip-hop and HATE it when white people use the word is...fairly telling, maybe.
And I know a lot of women who call themselves fat all the time but would be deeply offended if someone else calls them or one of their friends fat.
This isn't a double standard. It's manners. You are allowed to say critical things about your self that others are not.
Posted by ScottF (Member # 9356) on :
I know a lot of women too. I've never seen any of them greet each other with a friendly "What up, fatso?". There's no double standard around "fatso" because it's (for the most part) universally derogative.
If it was offensive to some, but was also used as a slang proxy for "one of us" then that would be, by definition, a double standard.
That said, a group of women using "what up fatty?" as a greeting sounds like the making of a pretty funny SNL bit.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: It wasn't an attempt at deflection, it was an illustration of your ignorance of the details of this little controversy. Deen is not only in hot water because she once used a racial slur. Look it up. Basic level stuff on this matter that you should've known already if you were gonna claim to venture an informed opinion, but mistakes happen. At this point, though, if you're gonna persist in claiming that this is all it's about, you'll be marking yourself unworthy of being taken seriously.
Rakeesh, saying "You're wrong because you're uninformed" is a pretty clear deflection.
I've read all 149 pages of Paula Deen's deposition. Have you? Because if you haven't, then you are in no position to call me uninformed.
There are two things that Paula Deen is being lambasted for, and both are things she said. One is her admitted use of the n-word a long time ago. The second is her remarks about her brother's wedding and how she wanted a bunch of "n-words wearing bow ties." She admits the gist of that story, but denies using the n-word at the time.
Every single other allegation in the deposition is directed toward her brother, who was in charge of the restaurant. Those allegations - that black employees had to use a separate restroom, that her brother forced employees to hear sexual jokes and look at porn, and that management ignored complaints - are still just allegations. They might be true, but they also might not.
So please, tell me what - other than words - Paula Deen is losing sponsorships over. And please, don't make yourself look silly by declaring someone uninformed for no reason.
Yes, I have read it. And if people were only focusing on the bare bones of what Deen has admitted herself at this point, you might have a leg to stand on.
But people aren't just saying, "She used a racial slur years ago. Fire her!" From a deeply conservative outlook such as yours that may be how it feels when people are frustrated with the majority, but the full situation is more complicated. Much of it ties into her follow up to the news. Her semi head nod towards 'that was wrong and I'm sorry', her bizarre explanation for what goes on with her family and their businesses, and-this much is true at least-her pretty weak explanation for waxing rhapsodic about the cultural niftiness of slavery.
These are the things, taken together, which when from a publicity standpoint put a strong whiff of doubt and wariness in the minds of people who aren't just inclined to shrug off racism as 'we're all color blind now' absurdity. And because it's a publicity question, and that makes it an economic question, she is losing some deals. Capitalism at work. Shouldn't you be happy?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by steven: There are plenty of young African-American males who would be HIGHLY offended if they heard a white person use the n-word. Plenty of those same young men enjoy hip-hop a great deal.
I'm starting to wonder if ANY of you actually know any young black men. Seriously, I'm wondering. The fact that I'm the first person to point out that plenty of young black men love hip-hop and HATE it when white people use the word is...fairly telling, maybe.
And I know a lot of women who call themselves fat all the time but would be deeply offended if someone else calls them or one of their friends fat.
This isn't a double standard. It's manners. You are allowed to say critical things about your self that others are not.
But would those women only get offended when skinny/fit people call them fat but it's okay for other fat people to call them fat? That would be a more exact comparison, since African-Americans wouldn't get offended if a fellow African-American called them that but would if a Caucasian did.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If fat people had any sense of commonality, sure. But fat people loathe and despise other fat people almost as much as thin people do.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Some would. I've witnessed it with my own eyes-one African American chastising another for throwing that word around.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Yeah, there are plenty of black people who don't agree with the usage of the word by anyone. Bill Cosby is one who immediately springs to mind, but almost any black contributer on the cable news networks is going to say the same thing. I've met people in day to day life with the same opinion. It's really not a vanishing rarity, though I definitely think it's more common the older the person in question is. They can better remember when the word was not only still a weapon, but a weapon with power.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm curious, Gaal-did you mean to say that African Americans, as a group, don't tend to mind when the word is said by others of that group, but do mind if it's said by those who aren't? Or did you mean to say some or particular subsets?
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Some would. I've witnessed it with my own eyes-one African American chastising another for throwing that word around.
I'm reminded of the poem called Niggaz by slam poet Julian Curry. It's encouraging to see a black person denounce the use of that word, especially from a platform that's much more likely to reach younger generations. The word's casual use might not be so prevalent if everyone, regardless of color, was more mindful of its historic significance.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Here's the thing: I suspect such denouncements are quite a bit less uncommon than appears to be believed here. There are, well, *quite a lot* of African Americans who are disgusted by the way that word, as well as embracing some of the scuzzier sides of what is often referred to as a hip hop culture.
Strangely, though, they don't get as much attention.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If fat people had any sense of commonality, sure. But fat people loathe and despise other fat people almost as much as thin people do.
We should sign you up for one of those social justice sites that talks about thin privilege and 'thinsplaining' and calls people out on their sizeist language and body policing (trigger warning: fatphobia!!)
Posted by Jeff C. (Member # 12496) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Some would. I've witnessed it with my own eyes-one African American chastising another for throwing that word around.
Coach Carter?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I can't tell if you're just making a jokey movie reference or if that's a remark on how uncommon it is and unlikely. But no, in person, to another person who was physically in front of me in his person.
Posted by Dogbreath (Member # 11879) on :
I really question how many people who think the "n word" is ubiquitously used by black people know very many black people. I didn't really know many black people until college, when I ended up living in a neighborhood where me and my roommate were the only not black people, and when I got to know some of my neighbors, hang out with them at parties, etc. I was surprised at how rarely they used the word. Most of them didn't at all.
It seems it's mostly limited to the kind of ignorant young men who also like calling everything "gay" or "retarded." Your average middle class, educated black man or woman probably says it just as rarely as your average, middle class, educated white man or woman.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Pretty much spot on to my experience as well, Dogbreath. Black people aren't all (or even mostly) deeply rooted in the kind of hip hop culture that draws attention and criticism from the wider culture, in my experience.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps: There will be outrage from the media about his use of gay slurs, right? Capitol One will fire him as their ad man, surely. After all, if Paula Deen's words were worth a boycott, then surely Baldwin's are too, right?
Baldwin would already have been dropped by Capitol One and numerous other sponsorships and created a rampage of criticism that would have dwarfed the Dean controversy if, in his twitter meltdown, he had called someone a nigger or referred to black people as niggers. Like, absolutely no question. Since you seem to be completely failing to account for this in your little question here, I don't know what you think this comparison demonstrates, or what the event is going to prove if Baldwin doesn't get shitcanned from Capitol One. Do you need to be individually waking up to the already well-known reality that anti-homophobia lags way behind anti-racism in this country, and we give way more of an ignorant pass to hurtful homophobic shit than we would to hurtful racist shit? Did you completely ignore the non-equivalence in this country between racism and homophobia in order to presume that the critical variable in this comparison is that Baldwin is a protected class of liberals that would get away with what Dean did, and Dean didn't because she's seen more as a conservative person?
(these are all rhetorical questions ofc, i assume this already)
I would hope this is true, but there is a history of people, both left and right leaning, that have said numerous racist things in the past and nobody bats an eye.
Robert Byrd was a senator for crying out loud and he still used the N-word on a regular basis, and almost nobody brought it up.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Byrd wasn't a national brand. He only had to keep (the majority of) the (voting) people of North Virginia happy. North Virginia, BTW, was the the most racist vote in 2008, with 20% of whites reporting that race was a factor in their vote for Clinton over Obama in the Democratic primaries. West Virginia voters are also over 95% white. Using the N-word seems like a pretty minor liability there.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
So since it is a smaller portion of the populace it makes it ok? The man was an elected official, not a celebrity. If the media had their priorities straight in this country they would cover things that elected officials do more than people who are only popular because they got lucky in Hollywood.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Generally the media cares about what its viewers suggest they want cared about.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Geraine: So since it is a smaller portion of the populace it makes it ok? The man was an elected official, not a celebrity. If the media had their priorities straight in this country they would cover things that elected officials do more than people who are only popular because they got lucky in Hollywood.
Your complaint was that "almost nobody brought it up." That is virtually guaranteed by "smaller audience", which was my whole point.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Generally the media cares about what its viewers suggest they want cared about.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
It looks like there might be some movement from activists to protest Alec Baldwin.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by DustinDopps:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Generally the media cares about what its viewers suggest they want cared about.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.
You can disagree all you like, but the media runs on advertising, and advertising runs on coaxing viewers to watch, and well you get the point. People claim to want something different than they actually pay for. Your disagreement notwithstanding that's how the system, you know, operates. It's bizarre how quickly people are willing to throw away ideas such as supply and demand when it suits an ideology.
Posted by DustinDopps (Member # 12640) on :
It has nothing to do with ideology, Rakeesh. It has to do with the fact that I have a degree in journalism and worked as a reporter, a radio DJ, and for a television station. In other words: I speak from personal experience. I had freedom to choose what to write, and chose stories based on what interested me, not on a poll of reader opinions. It's true that the media is expected by consumers to cover certain types of story. And it's true that certain media outlets are more liberal while others are more conservative, which is reflected in their audience.
But the media isn't a system of commerce based on supply and demand. Very few advertisers care about the content of the media. They want eyeballs. They might aim for a specific demographic that is served by a certain media entity, but on the whole they aren't often swayed by public opinion. Look how many advertisers left Rush Limbaugh last year, then quietly came back when the furor died down. They want sales, not ideology.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But the media isn't a system of commerce based on supply and demand. Very few advertisers care about the content of the media. They want eyeballs. They might aim for a specific demographic that is served by a certain media entity, but on the whole they aren't often swayed by public opinion. Look how many advertisers left Rush Limbaugh last year, then quietly came back when the furor died down. They want sales, not ideology.
I'm not sure 1) how you could have read my post and not seen 'advertising' as one of the very first words and 2) how you think what you've said disagrees with my post or proves your point.
I didn't say every single journalist, in all of their stories, caters to opinion polls. That doesn't need to be true for my point to stand and frankly if that's the standard you're insisting on, it's absurd. Do you imagine that if your tastes diverged continually from those of the public in your work, that you would've been kept on? Of course not. At those jobs, was nine of your past work examined to see what sorts of work you did and could be expected to do if given some free reign (and by the way, I would be surprised if your only guideline was 'if it interests me'), etc?