Ha ha, yeah, no really, a faith healing megachurch in texas where the pastors sold the anti-vax to its congregants, is now ground zero for an american measles outbreak.
And here I thought it was going to be portland.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote: There, at the small New Village School in Sausalito, 74 percent of entering kindergarteners said no to vaccinations.
Good freaking lord. I don't care how strong your faith is in whatever religion you believe, a school full of kids where only 26% is vaccinated and they WILL get something nasty. It's only a matter of time.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
To their credit, they changed their tune REAL FAST once this happened.
The more bog-standard group of new-agey 'alternative living' hippiepaths more typically known for antivax probably would waffle until children were literally dying of said preventable diseases.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I know it's cliche to wonder what the actual f*ck is wrong with America, but what the actual f*ck you guys? No country is perfect, but Jesus.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: I know it's cliche to wonder what the actual f*ck is wrong with America, but what the actual f*ck you guys? No country is perfect, but Jesus.
No country is immune to ignorance and fear among the people. At least in America, none of those parents were denied the vaccines, they simply chose not to. Some places in the world, there is no choice.
That being said, why can't this be considered child abuse or neglect? Denying them food would be.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
actually, I've been to Jesus, and they have their share of problems too.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
seriously though you have two answers: the first is that anti-vax probably has to do with subcultures found often in america which are inherently distrustful of authority and predisposed and inclined to believe that they can do better than what 'they' or 'the system' requires or recommends as a matter of public safety; combine this with a level of scientific illiteracy which is far above what it should be and a product of how extremely deficient and dysfunctional our educational system is in a lot of states.
But the more important answer is that we are moving into a generation that largely does not remember or truly understand the horrors of polio. Of rubella. Of pertussis outbreaks. Of smallpox. They have no real functioning knowledge of what happened in 1918 and why diseases that we now protect ourselves from with vaccines — and could eliminate, if the world had its shit together — would be capable of so much more than an influenza pandemic that killed about one in 20 people. On earth.
or to put it more simply, the privilege of living in a world that does not have a living memory of the horrors that vaccines protect us from is practically the only thing that could equip so many of us to think it's better to do without.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Vaccines are voluntary, you know. It's not child abuse to not get them, and it shouldn't be.
That being said, I say we package all of those kids and send them to Jenny McCarthy's house, and tell them to spit on her.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't know about that. There's a very real risk to not doing so, not just for one's own children. It's fraught with a lot of political problems and compromises, so I'm not advocating it, but without some *actual* compelling medical need (that is, a non-quack doctor advises against it), I'd be less uncomfortable than you are applying that label.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Making someone submit to anything regarding tehir own health is not a road we should travel down, IMO.
Although I'd be fine with not letting their children into schools.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Making someone submit to anything regarding tehir own health is not a road we should travel down, IMO.
Although I'd be fine with not letting their children into schools.
Dude, you're a medical professional. You're not allowed to sound even vaguely anti-vax. Sorry. Get your priorities straight.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Making someone submit to anything regarding tehir own health is not a road we should travel down, IMO.
Although I'd be fine with not letting their children into schools.
But...it's not just a question of their health and furthermore, people don't have a choice about whether their children go to school-whether at home or otherwise.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm of the opinion that nobody should be forced to get a vaccination or vaccinate their kids.
But, by necessity, nonvaccination (when not involving vaccine sensitivity or nonfunctionality) should be some straight scarlet letter for kids. Can't attend public or charter or public license schools. Can't go to pools or places like that.
It's not a perfect solution because you just know that unvaccinated hives will still cloister in Shining Starchild Granola Gaia Summerhill Waldorf School or Oral Copeland NewFaithChrist Liberty Camp and bust up herd immunity, but it drastically increases overall vaccination rates and keeps things relatively stable, or at least buys the epidemiologists some time in the event of an actual breakout from sheer stupidity
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
If I could, I'd travel back in time and straight-up murder Andrew Wakefield, with as little pain as possible. I'm sick and tired of hearing about this anti-vax nonsense on my raw paleo forum, hearing about it here, etc..
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
heh.
How dare a quack of a different feather pollute that board....
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
Oh LOL, it's the Kenneth Copeland church in Eagle Mountain. No vaccines because Jesus and Obama! We're white and upper class! Our offspring would never be exposed to such dirty plagues! All those folks in their McMansions must have had one hell of a shock when their children came down with the measles.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
Let insurance companies deny insurance to people who don't get vaccinations.
The free market has the answer!
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar: Let insurance companies deny insurance to people who don't get vaccinations.
The free market has the answer!
You know, I like that.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Misha McBride: Oh LOL, it's the Kenneth Copeland church in Eagle Mountain. No vaccines because Jesus and Obama! We're white and upper class! Our offspring would never be exposed to such dirty plagues! All those folks in their McMansions must have had one hell of a shock when their children came down with the measles.
quote:Church leaders wouldn't grant interviews, but Pearsons released a statement after the outbreak saying she isn't anti-vaccine. But Pearsons added that she still has some reservations about vaccines.
"The concerns we have had are primarily with very young children who have family history of autism and with bundling too many immunizations at one time," she said.
Pearsons set up vaccination clinics on church property, but at the same time, when she preaches to her congregates, the message is put your faith in God.
"So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts," she has said.
'so you see, there are facts about vaccines. and facts about why we're a bunch of idiots who just created a measles outbreak. but you have to remember that there's not just facts, you have to consider the truthiness about vaccines.'
How dare a quack of a different feather pollute that board....
Yep, I'm just like Wakefield. No difference. He's a medical professional who got stripped of his license for breaching medical ethics. He didn't believe in his study for a second. Not one bit. He lied for monetary gain.
I, OTOH, an a sincere seeker on the subject of nutrition. I invite people to investigate the issues for themselves, and have never made a penny off of my efforts.
Even if I'm wrong about everything, I'm not a fat junk food addict, unlike most of those who've criticized my dietary habits here. I'm proud of my body, how it looks and works, and I'm proud of how young I look for my age. None of that's genetic...everything works better than it did 15 years ago, and the trend in my family is to look older than one's age. It's all due to my own efforts and research. So yeah, I'm proud of all that. I'm not proud of everything I've done in my life, but nobody's perfect.
What are you proud of, Kwea?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Heh, while Kwea's shot was unnecessary and very antagonistic for no other point than that so far as I could tell...well, you don't make such events less likely by your way of just knowing things you have no way of knowing. How many of those who've criticized your nutritional ideas (as opposed to some of the other things you've said and done) do you actually have even a slight idea what they look like or eat? Did I miss a 'post your food intake and body shots' thread? Perhaps it got lost in the 'maintenance' period?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Heh, while Kwea's shot was unnecessary and very antagonistic for no other point than that so far as I could tell...well, you don't make such events less likely by your way of just knowing things you have no way of knowing. How many of those who've criticized your nutritional ideas (as opposed to some of the other things you've said and done) do you actually have even a slight idea what they look like or eat? Did I miss a 'post your food intake and body shots' thread? Perhaps it got lost in the 'maintenance' period?
You don't think I've looked at people's pictures? My biggest critics have been Scopatz, Kwea, and Primal Curve. I don't want to be hurtful, but...yeah, there's that. Of course, that's a pretty typical body type for the sci-fi/fantasy crowd, and a good bit of that is probably due to inactivity, not just horrible diet, but...not only does my diet keep me from getting fat, it also gives me the energy necessary to excercise.
It's not magic or rocket science. It's just the human ancestral diet. It's what we're built to eat. Put a tiger on a diet of kale, and he'll get sick. Same for a cow eating meat. Put a human on the typical American diet, and...99% of the time, he's going to end up sick. I eat a species-appropriate diet, as determined by studies of modern-day hunter-gatherers and anthropological data. I do eat it nearly 100% raw, but most hunter-gatherer groups eat a lot of their food raw. It's not magic. It's species-appropriate.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:You don't think I've looked at people's pictures? My biggest critics have been Scopatz, Kwea, and Primal Curve. I don't want to be hurtful, but...yeah, there's that.
Ok bro let's see your body shot then.
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
How the hell did this thread turn into Steven talking about his eating habits again? No one cares dude.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Kwea brought it up directly.
Anyway, Steven, you said 'at least I'm not a fat fast food junkie like them'. That's...not meaning to be hurtful? C'mon, you can lie better than that. And Bob, Primal Curve...how long has it been since they posted here, or elsewhere, to you? Jesus. That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Anyway, as for Bob I suspect he was always much more critical of your tendancy to sloppy, anecdotal thinking than your actual diet. And you failed utterly-entirely on your own-to generate any good will at all, remember? In fact your presence here back then was aimed in the utter opposite direction? Do you think that may be a factor? Or are your critics just fat food junkies? Having read your posts, I can definitely imagine you being totally oblivious of the need to be wary of an explanation so flattering to your vanity.
'Don't want to be hurtful.' For pity's sake, are you so dishonest that you actually believed that?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Expect an invoice for my new keyboard.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:You don't think I've looked at people's pictures? My biggest critics have been Scopatz, Kwea, and Primal Curve. I don't want to be hurtful, but...yeah, there's that.
Ok bro let's see your body shot then.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Kwea brought it up directly.
Anyway, Steven, you said 'at least I'm not a fat fast food junkie like them'. That's...not meaning to be hurtful? C'mon, you can lie better than that. And Bob, Primal Curve...how long has it been since they posted here, or elsewhere, to you? Jesus. That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Anyway, as for Bob I suspect he was always much more critical of your tendancy to sloppy, anecdotal thinking than your actual diet. And you failed utterly-entirely on your own-to generate any good will at all, remember? In fact your presence here back then was aimed in the utter opposite direction? Do you think that may be a factor? Or are your critics just fat food junkies? Having read your posts, I can definitely imagine you being totally oblivious of the need to be wary of an explanation so flattering to your vanity.
'Don't want to be hurtful.' For pity's sake, are you so dishonest that you actually believed that?
Never mind all the drama, entertaining as it may be to some. The point is, my diet works...for the same reason that lions are healthy on meat, and cows are healthy on grass...and calling me names doesn't change that fact. You know what I mean, Vern?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
requesting that whenever Steven starts yammering on about his diet, he is legally required to talk about that time his diet gave him brain damage
hopeful potential benefit: he stops talking about his diet forever
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: requesting that whenever Steven starts yammering on about his diet, he is legally required to talk about that time his diet gave him brain damage
hopeful potential benefit: he stops talking about his diet forever
Sure, I'll talk about that.
I tried the lowfat raw fruitarian diet, which is popular in raw vegan circles, and it caused debilitating social anxiety, mood swings, and panic attacks. Adding some more fat and minerals back into my diet got rid of all that. The end.
It was an interesting experiment. My forum has at least a dozen or more people who had similar experiences on that diet. Nobody does well on it, long-term, although it can be helpful in the shorter-term.
Do you think that about covers it, Sam?
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
Still waiting on that mad bodyshot bro. You wouldn't use the appearance of people who disagree with you without offering your own appearance to the table right? It would be the weakest of sauces.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parkour: Still waiting on that mad bodyshot bro. You wouldn't use the appearance of people who disagree with you without offering your own appearance to the table right? It would be the weakest of sauces.
I don't have a shirtless bodyshot. Would a shirted one satisfy your need to see my hot bod?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Expect an invoice for my new keyboard.
Check's in the mail, baby! Drawn on my very own Nigerian bank.
You know I was thinking about it as I wrote it, but considering how much more violent individual humans used to be and how much less common things like vendettas and honor killings have become for humanity as a whole, perhaps the more primal human diet really *is* richer in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Expect an invoice for my new keyboard.
Check's in the mail, baby! Drawn on my very own Nigerian bank.
You know I was thinking about it as I wrote it, but considering how much more violent individual humans used to be and how much less common things like vendettas and honor killings have become for humanity as a whole, perhaps the more primal human diet really *is* richer in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Rakeesh, OMG, you can't trust those Nigerian banks.
That's an interesting question, Rakeesh, about bearing grudges. If I'd guess, I'd say it tends to be more genetic and cultural than nutritional. Certainly I haven't noticed any change in my tendency to hold grudges over time.
I've always been on the grudge-holding side, myself...although I can name at least 3 people among my close friends and family who are much worse than I. My dad, my father-in-law, and my best childhood friend are all way ahead of me in that department.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
quote:That diet of yours must be rich in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Expect an invoice for my new keyboard.
Check's in the mail, baby! Drawn on my very own Nigerian bank.
You know I was thinking about it as I wrote it, but considering how much more violent individual humans used to be and how much less common things like vendettas and honor killings have become for humanity as a whole, perhaps the more primal human diet really *is* richer in grudge-bearing vitamins.
Rakeesh, OMG, you can't trust those Nigerian banks.
That's an interesting question, Rakeesh, about bearing grudges. If I'd guess, I'd say it tends to be more genetic and cultural than nutritional. Certainly I haven't noticed any change in my tendency to hold grudges over time.
I've always been on the grudge-holding side, myself...although I can name at least 3 people among my close friends and family who are much worse than I. My dad, my father-in-law, and my best childhood friend are all way ahead of me in that department.
Just to avoid misunderstandings, I was being facetious.
Anyway...I suppose it depends on how long you've been keeping a record of your family's grudge-bearing tendencies. Are you remembering events from decades ago that everyone else has forgotten? If so, perhaps they're not necessarily as far ahead as you think;)
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Just to avoid misunderstandings, I was being facetious.
Anyway...I suppose it depends on how long you've been keeping a record of your family's grudge-bearing tendencies. Are you remembering events from decades ago that everyone else has forgotten? If so, perhaps they're not necessarily as far ahead as you think;)
yeah, I guess I missed that whole facetious thing.
And I'm nowhere near my dad or my best friend, as far as that goes. However, NOBODY is anywhere near my father-in-law...he still complains about not getting tenure at Tulane, back in the late 70s. He also complains about childhood slights and taunts from bullies when he was a kid, and he's in his late 60s.
That's why I'm afraid to spend time around him...he's from another culture, so I don't feel that I have a good idea of what might offend him, and I'm always afraid I'll accidentally offend him and create a supergrudge. You know what I mean?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven:
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Making someone submit to anything regarding tehir own health is not a road we should travel down, IMO.
Although I'd be fine with not letting their children into schools.
Dude, you're a medical professional. You're not allowed to sound even vaguely anti-vax. Sorry. Get your priorities straight.
DUDE...that isn't anti-vax at all. And I am allowed to say whatever I want to.
As a medical professional, my FIRST duty is to honor my patients right to choose. Choose to treat or not treat, to vaccinate or not.....
...even when I think they are completely wrong, and maybe even a moron for not listening to medical advice.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: And I am allowed to say whatever I want to.
Nanny-nanny-boo-boo, stick my head in poo-poo?
Well, I guess if that's the best you've got, that's the best you've got.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
...he did insult you out of nowhere, but in that post just now yo *dkd* see where he put forward a direct argument in support of his position and clarifying it?
Or is it simply that when it's someone you don't like, you allow yourself to remember saying and to hear only what you like? (Wasn't trying to be hurtful, is that all you've got?)
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: ...he did insult you out of nowhere, but in that post just now yo *dkd* see where he put forward a direct argument in support of his position and clarifying it?
Or is it simply that when it's someone you don't like, you allow yourself to remember saying and to hear only what you like? (Wasn't trying to be hurtful, is that all you've got?)
Although I disagree with Kwea's position (less with his position, and more the excessive libertarianism I fear is behind it), I do admit that the issue is not absolutely black and white.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Your diet is a crock, and dangerous. I have threads and threads of your psudo-science saved, you know.
Also, I wasn't talking about your, specifically, being on that board. I find the entire concept of you, of all people, being mad at someone for advocating poor science and faulty reasoning, hilarious, to be sure....but the whole BOARD is made up of those people! I find it funny that anyone who frequents a board based on psudo-science would get mad at other psudo-science.
As far as what I look like......who cares? Am I here posting about how great my diet is, or how healthy it is? No.
You are....yet again.
Rakeesh....steven mentioned that board, and I posted about a pot calling a kettle black. He brought it up, more than once, yet again. Not me.
I can post the chats from before again, if you want. All 4 years of them, over and over again, at least 5 different threads full of lies, backpedaling, and psudo-science.
I saved them for a reason.
Once again, steven, you have no idea about science, or nursing. But don't let your lack of knowledge stop you from commenting. It's never stopped you on any other topic you are ignorant about, to be sure.
The very first rule of treating patients is that you let them decide on their treatment. If they have a living will, you follow it, even if you disagree with it. If their religion forbids a male to look at a female, you make arraignments to accommodate it even if you are a male nurse and know it's foolish to you.
It's their bodies, and your rights regarding them stop at their skin, for the most part. There is nothing more individual, more private, or more important that your own body, and controlling your medical treatments is a fundamental right.
So yes, I hate Jenny McCarthy, because of the actual HARM she has caused....and I think it's foolish to not get vaccinated. As anyone who knows me (or who spends more than 3 min looking up my posts on the subject here at Hatrack) knows. But I also think that wrong or not, parents have a right to decide for themselves, to choose to vaccinate or not.
Keeping the unvaccinated kids from school would at least give the vaccinated kids a chance. Not much of one, but at least a chance of not getting sick.
I worked at USAMRIID developing vaccinations that currently protect people in over 100 countries right now, steven. I personally rewrote the current MVRS protocols that were approved by the Senate Oversight Committee, and are currently used as a model from informed consent in human testing worldwide, all before I was 25 years old.
I went to back to school at age 39 and got my nursing licence. I have a beautiful wife, and a daughter who is the light of my life. I have plenty of things to be proud of, things that have nothing to do with my medical condition (which you know nothing about), or my weight, which is linked directly to my physical limits caused by my injuries....which you know nothing about.
If all you have to be proud of is how you look and the false, racist psudo-science by Dr. Price you call truth, that's pretty sad. All of your pride is based on a lie.
But then again you already know that....and so do we.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I'd not have said thing one about your physique if you hadn't yet again insulted me out of pretty much nowhere.
The same goes for my little nutrition speeches. If you don't want to hear me talk about nutrition, don't insult me. There's a clear pattern of you insulting me in threads, followed by me talking about nutrition. I don't just randomly bring it up.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
when confronted by predators, or when spooked, the steven emits a disorienting cloud of nutritional nonce as a defense mechanism. the ineffectuality of this ingrained tendency has contributed to a significant decline in their once-majestic herds, threatening the entire local ecosystem
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: when confronted by predators, or when spooked, the steven emits a disorienting cloud of nutritional nonce as a defense mechanism. the ineffectuality of this ingrained tendency has contributed to a significant decline in their once-majestic herds, threatening the entire local ecosystem
I was majestic? Shoot, I don't remember that...ROFL
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You miss the point, steven. I can always lose weight, if I choose to have the surgeries I need to fix my spine and knees. You, however, will never be able to function intelligently when confronted with actual facts.
YOU brought up the raw food boards, not me. I just commented on your absurd reaction to a quack of a different feather.
Posted by 777 (Member # 9506) on :
I think the LDS perspective on faith healing--as well as most miraculous things--is actually pretty sound. Yes, according to our faith these things CAN happen; but they are no substitute for making our best use of what we have at our disposal. Exercise, good sleep, proper nutrition, and natural vitamins and nutrients are important, but we (or most of us) also make use of modern technology and medicines, including vaccinations. And through it all we give blessings.
I think the general idea is: involve the Lord, but don't mistake laziness or stupidity for faith.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: You miss the point, steven. I can always lose weight, if I choose to have the surgeries I need to fix my spine and knees. You, however, will never be able to function intelligently when confronted with actual facts.
YOU brought up the raw food boards, not me. I just commented on your absurd reaction to a quack of a different feather.
You can always lose weight, huh? But you don't even know how to deal with the cravings, like eating a lot of high-quality fats at the beginning of a meal, and supplementing with extra minerals (in appropriate ratios, to avoid imbalances) to help you feel satisfied sooner. Those solutions really work, and require not much more effort than simply doing them. Finding high-quality fats can be hard, but you live in Florida, so there's always good fatty fish around.
If you want to talk about dangers in my diet, sure, eating raw shellfish can be dicey. I've gotten pretty sick a couple of times from them. However, steaming them reduces the dangers a lot, and doesn't really reduce the nutritional content. I just choose not to steam them. For that matter, you don't even need shellfish. You can get trace minerals from mineral supplements.
As for the main components of my diet, raw fish and fruit, there's no real dangers there, other than the occasional contamination of fruit from Mexico, etc.. Raw fish is very safe, I've never gotten sick from it. If it were some awful public health issue, the Japanese wouldn't eat it with such pleasure and regularity, and sashimi/sushi wouldn't be the big trend that it has become recently, here and in Western Europe.
In the raw paleo community, we're generally more about building a strong body and immune system that can withstand the occasional germ, instead of being a weakened, sick creature that is forced to freak out over every bacteria that comes along. Certainly I handle colds far more easily now than when I ate a worse diet, and that's par for the course for the other people I know who eat a very high percentage of their food raw.
But go ahead, keep calling me names. Waste your time. My forum is the most popular paleo diet forum on the internet, and we get 25K+ page views daily, and we've been more than doubling our page views yearly since we started. It's going to keep growing, because people are tired of feeling tired constantly, and having all the other random health problems that our modern diet is causing.
They want a cure, and my diet is often able to at least ameliorate symptoms enough to give people hope to keep going. It wouldn't keep growing if it wasn't providing some relief.
You probably assume that everyone on my forum is a crazy, reckless experimenter like me, but actually we have quite a few people who were so desperate that they tried the diet, and stuck with it because it's the only thing they've found that fixed whatever symptoms were wrecking their lives. All the people who got sick first, THEN tried the diet, are very typical, down-to-earth folks, obviously unlike me. It's working for them, though, so they tolerate the various crazies in order to learn more about how to get and stay healthier.
And yes, there are a lot of crazies on my forum, too, in addition to the normal folks who were desperate enough to try the raw diet. No shock there...but most of the crazies are exceptionally bright, and sometimes are very insightful, and are often really kind and loving people.
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: You don't think I've looked at people's pictures? My biggest critics have been Scopatz, Kwea, and Primal Curve. I don't want to be hurtful, but...yeah, there's that. Of course, that's a pretty typical body type for the sci-fi/fantasy crowd, and a good bit of that is probably due to inactivity, not just horrible diet, but...not only does my diet keep me from getting fat, it also gives me the energy necessary to excercise.
It's not magic or rocket science. It's just the human ancestral diet. It's what we're built to eat. Put a tiger on a diet of kale, and he'll get sick. Same for a cow eating meat. Put a human on the typical American diet, and...99% of the time, he's going to end up sick. I eat a species-appropriate diet, as determined by studies of modern-day hunter-gatherers and anthropological data. I do eat it nearly 100% raw, but most hunter-gatherer groups eat a lot of their food raw. It's not magic. It's species-appropriate.
Just to point out something:
Human diet has changed over time. For example wide-spread agriculture started 10.000 years ago, but it existed in smaller scale loooong before that. Even in just 10.000 years, we have passed roughly 400 generations of people (Assuming that in the ancient times, people usually already had their first baby when they reached 25) . Which is enough for evolutionary changes to take place.
It's probably fair to say, that a modern man is more capable of successfully digesting agricultural products, than a human who lived 50.000 years ago
Moreover, the oldest cooking hearts we have found are from about 250.000 years ago. Which is when people started eating other than just raw meat (And the real number might be much older than that). 250.000 years equals about 10.000 generations of people. Which is enough time for evolution to change our digestive systems. Then there are factors like the Toba catastrophe theory - Human evolution bottlenecks - And we can't know for sure how those affected the natural evolution. And the breeding with other homo's, such as Neandertahls (We all carry some of their genes).
Then there are things like intestinal bacterial flora, which greatly affect our digestion, and which might have varied greatly over our history.
Even in the modern world, there are notable differences between different people in different parts of the world. Humans are genetically wired to adapt to their nutritional surroundings. For example some research indicates that Inuits are more capable of breaking fats down for use by their bodies. Many Indians in the Southwestern USA have bodies that are exceptionally efficient at utilizing the calories in their food. And so on.
You mentioned that your diet is "determined by studies of modern-day hunter-gatherers and anthropological data". Which sounds like a fairly flawed premise. Modern day hunter-gatherers are generally very small, isolate populations that live in very specific surroundings, and their genetic make-up might be very different from yours. I wouldn't advice anyone to follow a traditional Inuit diet. The diet of a modern-day Papua hunter-gatherer probably isn't any better starting point. In fact, their isolation is a likely indication that they suffer of some kind of genetic bottle-neck effects when compared to the more mainstream human population. The gene-base is too small, and mutations might have made them very different not only from you, but also from their ancestors. For the most part, you have no idea whether they are following some ancestral diet, or whether they have just adapted to their surroundings, and their current diet is only 1.000 years old, if that.
What I'm saying is, that science doesn't really have any kind of consensus that a healthy diet for us would be some kind of an ancestral human diet from the hunter-gatherer times. We have evolved a lot in the last half a million years. We are still evolving. There are notable differences in different human populations.
Athletes typically don't use any kind of ancestral hunter-gatherer diet.
And if you are susceptible to using experimental diets that cause brain damage, you might not be the most accomplished person to give dietary advice.
[ September 04, 2013, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Tuukka ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: But I also think that wrong or not, parents have a right to decide for themselves, to choose to vaccinate or not.
How far does a parent's right to refuse medical care for their children extend?
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Until they die from it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Isn't that rather late?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
steven, I don't have to do anything to make you look crazy. You do fine with that on your own.
Yet again, stop telling me what I do and don't know about things. I don't care what you think you know about me, based on our "conversations" here, but you are wrong if you think I will ever take YOUR word on nutrition about anything.
I guess I will go dig up the thread where you promise to discuss Dr. Price's works, and theories, with Bob. Between the outright lies and the quack theories you expound on, at length, in it I doubt anyone here would either.
For anyone wondering why I have such a strong reaction to steven's so-called nutritional advice, please read this : Why Price's work is a pile of crap > I am a nurse,and quack science like this pisses me off because it places people at risk.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:WAPF is a relatively small non-profit with a modest budget, but its leaders and members have been very effective in advocating a meat-centered diet, with lots of butter and whole, raw milk. Unfortunately, although some of its recommendations are laudable (such as the admonition to avoid highly processed foods, and the warning that most popular vegetarian and vegan diets are not ideal), many others are entirely out of step with modern nutritional science. They promote a range of irresponsible and potentially dangerous ideas, including: Butter and butter oil are our "super foods" which contain the "X factor", discovered by Weston Price. Glandular Organ Extracts - to promote health and healing of the corresponding organ. Poached brains of animals should be added to other ground meats for better nutrition Raw cows milk and meat broth should be fed to newborns who don't breast feed, rather than infant formula. Regular ingestion of clay (Azolimite Mineral Powder) because the clay particles remove pathogens from the body. There are benefits of feeding sea salt to infants and babies Fruits and vegetables should be limited in children's diets.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
WESTON PRICE's "THE X FACTOR" NUTRITIONISTS HATE HIM - ONE "SMALL TRICK" DISCOVERED BY A DENTIST
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Isn't that rather late?
I think MDs should be able to give care despite parental refusal if:
1. It is life threatening. 2. The dean of medicine signs off. 3. A social worker signs off.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)