There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Failing to see Jews as human would hardly be a defense of his actions, in any case. It would be, IMO, far more evil. Hitler was a psychopath, and as close to evil as any human can come.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Wow...my brain is so Orson-Scott-Card-ified that I now see a REAL easy connection between Hitler and Achilles (the whole "you saw me in a state of despair, and, thus, you will die").
I wonder if OSC would ever write a book about Hitler...he seems to have a good perception of human nature - both evil and good. And all his books show the point of view of practically all involved characters.
I doubt he would, though, as it would probably just revive this woman's ridiculous accusation.
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, yes, Da_Goat, you have it right. It is ACHILLES that is developed from Hitler as the prototype, NOT Ender. (And never, for one moment, is any sane reader tempted to be sympathetic with the aims and methods of Achilles.)
I suspect the crazy Radford allegations may have tempted Card to say, "If I WAS going to make a character inspired by Hitler, THIS is how I would do it," and he created Achilles.
So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
posted
all very good points and opinions expressed. some very well worded as well as being very foolish. Lets just put it simply, Ender was nothing like Hitler. Card did not intend that and made it apparent himself. Whoever wrote the article waisted their time comparing a sci fi, futuristic hero to a historical tyrant. There really is no point in drawing parallels.
quote:So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
I've got to admit, I'm mystified by this comparison. I've read Captial too and I'm really curious what parts of it you think rank up there with Hitler?
I thought that the book contained some very interesting and accurate things and some very innaccurate or strange things. However, I never had a feeling of EVIL coming from it. Especially in regards to the times in which he was writing in, Marx, in Capital, seems to be mostly pushing against evil things rather than the opposite. And that's in the proportionately few times that he is adovcating specific systems rather than describing how he thinks economic systems in general work.
However, I'm always interested in other perspectives. Could you tell me what it was that so horrified you about this book?
posted
I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words. -Tristionya
Posts: 12 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, indeed, Mr. Squicky, Marx's CAPITOL is a completely different piece of goods from MIEN KAMPF. It is not the wildness of a mind going insane with obssession.
It is a coolly imagined social structure that, in its way, simply violates almost every principle that the loosely defined "Western Civilization" is built on.
1. Religious faith is condemned. 2. The family is denigrated. 3. Gradual reform of abuses of the working class is even worse than being an abuser in the first place, because gradual reformers delay the necessary revolution. I cannot give you the exact reference, but there is a place where Marx says the "middle class socialist" (reformer) is even worse than a factory owner. [Granted, that when Lenin defended socialism brought about by violent means, he yanked Marx's quotes out of context; but even in context they are more on the side of violence than not.]
Hitler (and fascists generally) are like madmen spraying bullets at random or swinging sledge-hammers. Marxists/Leninists are careful, well-spoken people who are carefully poisoning the family food.
And when we look, not at the roots, but the fruits, what do we see? Under Hitler, millions of men, women, and children are gassed to death. Under Stalin (Marxist/Leninist) men, women and children quietly die of starvation under the "agricultural reforms."
Yes, it is a very different KIND of evil. But how much difference does it make to the victim?
Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Edie, I think you may be taking about a different book, perhaps The Communist Manifesto. As far as I can remember, Capital contains none of the positions that you attribute to it.
As far as judging a book by it's fruits, I'd no more feel justified condemning Capital because of Stalin's excesses than I would condemning the Bible based on the various atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ over the centuries or condemning the Declaration of Idenpendence and U.S. Constitution because of the U.S. attempted genocide of Native Americans.
I must confess that I have not read the Manifesto nor do I know much about economics beyond my required courses (Econ 101 and History of Econ),
BUT
I must say that the point of not judging a written work by the actions of adherents strikes a chord with me. On the one hand, I agree, and on the other there is a part of me saying "wait a minute! these are the folks that are putting into practice the ideas of the author/theorist/philosopher."
I guess it's kind of like the chicken and egg question.
Good food for thought, though.
*Wanders off muching pensively*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
May i ask why Ender is being compaired to an egotistical dead tyrant dictator who killed millions of jews because he thought he was in the process of creating a perfect race? What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?! I am outraged at even the thought!!! So what if he nearly destroyed an entire race! I have two points: a) he, at the time, was completely unaware that he was killing others! he thought it was a game! He was fatiqued and nearly to a point of mental insanity and the fact still stands that he DID NOT know!!! Ignorance? Yes. But, he DID NOT know! b) he was also the only being that could revive the buggars! My personal reation was that he actually introduced the buggars to the piggies and helped two different species!!! He even made a friend out of the queen and many of the piggies!!! He was not evil!!!
{Edit: if you read carefully above, I stated 'What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?!' I appologize if anyone took this as a personal attack or some garbage like that. I ment a LUNITIC, and not, I hope, and Hatracker's. Unless of course you are a lunitic who thinks Ender is Hitler's clone, then it is directed towards you.}
posted
Makes me wonder what kind of creepy mindset would actually approach EG like that in the first place...since what you find in the world (or a book, event, whatever) often says less about the world, book, etc. than it does about you. You find what you look for. Anyone looking for evil in the work of OSC is clearly bring it to the table themselves.
Posts: 24 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Shan, I'm not trying to defend The Communist Manifesto or anything. I'm certainly not a Marxist. I am saying that Capital is a book of economic criticism that can stand quite separate from the social reforms that it's author also pushed. There are ideas in there that are very important and shoud not be dismissed because of prejudice or because of what other people made of them. It is an important book, but one whose importance will be missed if you approach it with only hostility and defensiveness. That's pretty much all.
----
As to the comparison of Ender to Hitler, of course on it's merits it's absurd. But that's the thing. I feel that people are reacting to it inappropriately. It's not something to get worked up about. That confers on it an importance that it doesn't deserve. The author would most likely see parallels between any figure responsible for genocide, be it by something as innocent as tripping over a power cord, and Hitler. This deserves laughter and pity, but is not to be taken seriously enough to get upset about.
Although, if I squint my eyes just right and drink 2 3/4 glasses of tequila, I can see where this idea sort of came from. In Speaker for the Dead, Ender Wiggin - the historical figure, not the actual character - is treated as kind of a Hitler figure, in that he is regarded as a monstrous embodiement of evil. I'm sure that in a debate in that theoretical world, it would be common to Godwin your opponent by comparing him to Ender.
quote:"But the Speaker for the Dead, the one who wrote this book, he's the wisest man who lived in the age of flight among the stars. While Ender was a murderer, he killed a whole race of people, a beautiful race of ramen who could have taught us everything-" "Both human, though," whispered the Speaker. Human was near them now, and he spoke a couplet from the Hegemon: "Sickness and healing are in every heart. Death and deliverance are in every hand."
This encapsulates one of the main point of the book, that all human beings are just that, human beings. It is a common human behavior to make a monster out of your opponent, to make them varlese, and thus deny any connection with them. Speaker for the Dead advances the idea that this is not justified. It says that no person is an animal uncapable of being understood, even if they are a Hitler or a Saddam Hussien or a Karl Marx. I could see how some people, who are strongly invested in believing in the absolute evil of some others, would see this as a de facto defense of those others.
Obviously I don't agree. Hitler doesn't have to be a monster, but it is not in defense of him that I say that he was instead a man who did very monstrous things.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kristine, you hit upon my point exactly. I asked if anyone had read it because I had the same experience reading it that Scott did (although I was in college. How a 9 year-old...? All the more reason for to OSC). IMO, people making comments about Hitler need to read that book if they want their comments to carry any weight. I know, I know, it's not the only book out there on the topic, but I think it's the best.
Posts: 196 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Did I wander into the Twilight Zone or something? Are people so damned ignorant that they're actually finding reasonable comparisons between Adolf Hitler and Ender Wiggin?
Having read Ender's Game many times as well as studying WWII and Hitler in particular, I have to wonder how anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of both could think such a parallel exists. There is only one way in which Ender and Adolf are alike, and it's a stretch at that. Ender wiped out an entire species, and Adolf tried to wipe out an entire race in Europe.
Now for the ways in which they weren't alike. One, Hitler intentionally tried to murder the entire Jewish race in Europe. Ender did not have any such intent with regards to the Formics. Two, Hitler was his own master and made the decision to attempt to wipe out the Jews in Europe himself. Ender did not-he was tricked into it by his military and political superiors. If one has actually read Ender's Game, then they'll remember the part where Ender annihilated the Formic homeworld because he was quitting the game. He did it specifically because he thought his superiors would find such an action, even in a simulation, unconscionable and thus let him finally quit. Three, the Jews in Europe were no threat to Hitler, and Hitler knew it. They were a small minority almost universally despised throughout Europe at the time. Hitler's own words prove that he was smart enough to know they were no real threat. The Formics, however, were a real threat, in fact one that we couldn't communicate with. They were a numerous, technologically advanced, highly capable society that undeniably posed a threat to humanity.
Gabriel, it's obvious that you are at best poorly informed about both Adolf Hitler and Ender's Game. Your conclusions are based on entirely incorrect information, and you're coming very close to excusing the Holocaust as well as justifying Hitler's pogroms and hatred of the Jews.
quote:He wiped out an entire race of Alien life forms he thought the world was threatened by.
He did not "think" the Formics were a threat, he knew it. If memory serves, they attacked Earth and our solar system on two seperate occassions, razing China among other regions of the planet.
quote:Just like Hitler tryed to wipe out the Jewish people in Germany because he thought they were a threat to him.
He tried to wipe out the Jews in more than just Germany, and if you'll do a little real research on Adolf Hitler, you'll quickly find that he simply used the Jews as a rallying point. They were no threat to him and he knew it.
quote:but I'm sure that all the political influence that most Jewish people had was indeed a threat to Hitler's power
The Jews did not have much political influence in Germany or anywhere in Europe.
quote:Who better then his greatest threat and also the weakest people he could find
Curious. Sometimes the Jews were Hitler's greatest threat, other times they were his weakest enemy. Make up your mind.
quote:Again like you said nobody in Germany really liked the Jewish people in the first place...They were stealing there jobs, they were coming into there neighborhoods, and sending there children to there schools
And yet, this relatively tiny minority was Hitler's "greatest threat"? And what's all this BS about stealing jobs, coming into their neighborhoods, etc.? Fool, the Jews were already there. They had been in Europe for centuries.
quote:but they were a threat to our power just like the Jewish people were a threat to Hitler's.
Have you even read Ender's Game? Remember how the Formics were waging and winning a war of extermination against humanity? Maybe your Cliff's Notes version of Ender's Game skipped that part.
quote:He chose to kill the Buggers as Hitler chose to kill the Jewish people. They did it for most of the same reasons the number one being influence and again power.
Ender did not choose to annihilate the Formics, he was tricked into it. The reasons for annihilating the Formics all are founded on the certainty that the Formics were doing the same thing to humanity.
OSC did not make Ender similar to Hitler. To reach that conclusion, you've had to twist both history and the book, changing or outright ignoring both historical writing (Hitler's), and ignoring just about the entire end of Ender's Game.
quote:Ok Blacwolve oviously you weren't listening to my last post the Jewish people, however hated, were a very powerful influence. Most of them were in office or what not...They were an influence despite popular beleif that is why they were so hated. They were taking from the Germans and Hitlers only way to gain there power was to have the Germans turn against them once and for all. Thats why the Nazis were constructed because if you were smart you would know Hitler killed his first army (I can't recall the name) he developed because he wanted an army of the people...People he knew would cast the Jewish people out with no problems. They were powerful they did have influence within the Jewish community and there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right...And your questioning yourself.
What the hell are you talking about? There were more Jewish people than Germans in Germany?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Noeman, I don't think so. The responses were actually very restrained for over 5 days, considering it was such a contraverisial topic on a forum full of OSC fans. S.Watson chose only to post once, for his or her's own reasons.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think we ran S. Watson off. I think S. Watson just posted to get information, and had no intention of joining the forum.
I am just about the only person who responded directly to S. Watson, so I guess I'm a bit touchy on the thought that "we" might have run this person off, especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech. I believe my reply was very polite and reasonable and understanding, and I even went through the effort of posting a link to OSC's response to Radford's article. I feel that my response was entirely appropriate, and I don't intend to apologize for it.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that S. Watson was likely just looking for info and never intended to join a long term discussion.
And MegaIcky is a kind, courteous poster who contributes wonderful things to all discussions he is involved in. If he's feeling at all defensive about this or the other thread, he shouldn't. (Got that, Ic?)
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with you, Black Mage. It didn't help me as much as I hoped it would, but if you know OSC's personallity enough (through his published works and of course Hatrack) you should know what lines OSC thinks along, and therefor assume... or is it just me?
Posts: 100 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, hey, Icarus, I wasn't meaning you in particular (or at all). I didn't think there was anything wrong with your reply. Actually, I agree that S. Watson was probably just looking for information, but I had assumed that the reason he hadn't responded at all was because he felt like he'd touched a nerve.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech."
If you'd read my posts just a little more carefully I think you could see that I didn't mean anything all that bad- though perhaps I was excessively vicious, I have a tendency to do that from time to time, but I'm "calling em as I see em". As far as I know there are worse insults than blankety blank, and worse crimes than suppresing free speech by accident. It's just that when a whole bunch of people do it at the same time it drives me nuts. Give peace a chance .
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
So here is the thread that's creating all the free speech contraversy!
I have to say that even based on the very little I know about OSC, the idea that his intention for Ender's Game was to justify Hitler is absurd. It's a fine example of the way academia likes to assign motivations to authors.
However, correct intepretations of a novel aren't limited to those that the author intends to include, and I think the Ender-Hitler comparison is a very interesting one.
The key similarity is that both committed acts of genocide and were eventually condemned and loathed for it. We see Hitler in the same way that the people of the future saw Ender. Thus when Ender's Game suggests Ender was a good person despite his crimes, despite how his world eventually came to see him, it raises questions about how accurate our view of Hitler was. It teaches an important lesson: the goodness of a person is not determined by the outcome of his actions. Ender did a horrible thing, yet he was still good. Why? Intentions. That's the message here - it is intentions that should determine our judgement of a person's character. We see Hitler as a villain because he did not "accidently" do bad things. His intentions were bad, unlike Ender.
Or were they? After all the people thought Ender had bad intentions when he destroyed the buggers too. They didn't know the real him though - they were mistaken. Could we be similarly mistaken about Hitler and his crimes? Many will be tempted to say no, but if we are being fair we must concede yes. We didn't know him either. We were not fortunate enough to get a view inside his mind to see how his thoughts progressed. Thus we do not know how the world looked to him, through the prism of his mind. Ender did monsterous things when necessary - perhaps Hitler was simply doing the same.
Then again, Ender did not realize he was doing the most monsterous thing of all. If he had, would he have still done it in the end? (An interesting issue by itself.)
I think it's an excellent issue to pose to English classes.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
We most certainly DO have a window inside Hitler's mind. His early writings and letters, his actions, show us a man who was weak and cowardly, who consistently blamed the failures in his life on others.
He simply got better at choosing vulnerable targets.
Don't sanitize Hitler's evil.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's a view of his reasoning, but it doesn't really tell you what it would be like to think like him. It's one thing to know someone is weak and cowardly, and another thing to understand what it is like to be weak and cowardly. Novels tend to give us a good notion of the latter, but I don't think you can gleam it very well from normal writings (maybe some autobiographies.)
That would be like claiming to understand me just based on my posts on the forum.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't claim to understand Hitler -- I don't know that I want to. You said we lacked a "window into his mind," and I don't believe that to be true.
Similarly, while I don't believe that I understand you based on your posts, surely you cannot deny that they give me a window into your thoughts, feelings, etc.?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, yes to an extent. But to understand a person's intentions you need to understand them, not just see how their thoughts and emotions progress.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In order to determine whether their actions are evil or not? I disagree.
I believe we have sufficient evidence to judge Hitler's evil intentions, as well as his evil actions.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
A rational and good person could look at the situation in Ender's time, going by the amount of knowledge they had, and conclude that the Buggers needed to be stopped at any cost. To say the same thing about Hitler's time time and the Jews, one must either be irrational or evil. I think Card's invention (he did invent them, right), of the concepts of "raman" and "varelse" are usefull here. The Jews A) had not done Hitler any wrong, and B) were very clearly raman, whereas the Formics had already hurt the humans, and (as far as they could tell) were varelse. So Ender and Graff were justified, Hitler wasn't.
Posts: 285 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The best window we ever got into Hitler's mind was the one he made with a Luger at the end of the war.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really like your post Hazen, if only because your views on the matter seem so paralell to my own. Whether OSC actually invented 'Raman' and 'Varelse' I don't know, and I'd really like to. My best guess is probably not, but perhaps he did nearly invent or re-invent the concept?
"After all the people thought Ender had bad intentions when he destroyed the buggers too. They didn't know the real him though - they were mistaken. Could we be similarly mistaken about Hitler and his crimes? Many will be tempted to say no, but if we are being fair we must concede yes. We didn't know him either. We were not fortunate enough to get a view inside his mind to see how his thoughts progressed."
Admitedly it's hard to directly argue with your logic, Tresopax; after all, if a man's alone in a room with two buttons, and he presses the one that destroys the world thinking that it's the one that will save the world, then surely you cannot in good conscience blame him and call him evil, and there's not enough information definitively call him stupid much less crazy.
That being said, one key point I think you may be missing is that neither people nor their histories are so naive as they are in Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. Remember that even in Ender's game, Ender was a hero before he was vilanized, and in real life lies seldom live forever. Therefore, though I never knew Hitler or Ender, I can tell you that it is extremely likely that if I was a human I would have sided fully with Ender in the Bugger war, and I can tell you beyond any reasonable doubt, that, were I a German in World War II, I would have been against Hitler 100%.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:A rational and good person could look at the situation in Ender's time, going by the amount of knowledge they had, and conclude that the Buggers needed to be stopped at any cost. To say the same thing about Hitler's time time and the Jews, one must either be irrational or evil.
So if you do something wrong thinking it's right, you are good if it was a reasonable mistake, but evil if normal rational people wouldn't have made the mistake? Or are you saying everyone is rational, and thus nobody would make such an irrational mistake as to think killing the Jews is good, and thus Hitler must've been evil?
quote:Therefore, though I never knew Hitler or Ender, I can tell you that it is extremely likely that if I was a human I would have sided fully with Ender in the Bugger war, and I can tell you beyond any reasonable doubt, that, were I a German in World War II, I would have been against Hitler 100%.
That's easily said, but the fact remains that there were many many Germans who supported Hitler, and they probably weren't that different from you or me. How can you be sure beyond a reasonable doubt?
quote:Check the ID on the member who started this thread. If there's something dumber than feeding a troll, it's feeding a ghost.
Not if you're feeding an interesting thread.
And if you're suggesting the author of this thread was a troll, I don't think they did anything bad to merit that claim.
posted
"That's easily said, but the fact remains that there were many many Germans who supported Hitler, and they probably weren't that different from you or me. How can you be sure beyond a reasonable doubt?"
It is easily said, but I'd say that's Ok, since it's true . I'd be willing to bet that few of the Germans who supported Hitler were true idealists, and many were definitely lured with his promise of power- I myself would not be lured. There were also many Germans against Hitler, and not all of them were cowed- perhaps many people would be so, but I am not one of them. Thus I do not speak for anyone else, but I am sure of this for myself beyond a reasonable doubt, though I do not deny that extraordinary circumstances as were not the norm could theoretically possibly change things, but I still doubt that I would stay long decieved. I am sure, however, that many who actually fought on the German side in WWII did so not for Hitler but for their country, and it is not the same. Like Robert E. Lee and the confederacy.
Anyway, to look at Ender's time, there were no "Schindler"s, no Bugger sympathizers; why would there be? One does not sympathize with death.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let me explain myself some more. I believe that there is some margin of error when it comes to our knowing the truth, in other words, there are some possibilities that are difficult enough to distiguish that a person can genuinely look at the evidence available to them, and arrive at a different conclusion. Hitler's beliefs about the Jews were beyond that margin of error. Believing what he taught about them would be along the lines of someone believing that the earth is flat, with today's evidence presented to them. Thus, whether he believed what he taught or not, had he actually looked at a little bit of evidence he would have found it going against him. If he was genuinely deluded be his ideology, he was evil for not examining it more closely before acting on it. I would compare it to a (hypothetical) man who heard a commotion in his neighbor's backyard, decided it was aliens coming to plan the world domination with that neighbor, and went over and shot the neighbor without first glancing over the fence to see if his theory was true. Clearly, even if he had convinced himself that his wild theory was true, he at least should have tried to verify it. The same goes for Hitler; even if he did believe his paranoid fantasies, he is still culpable for ignoring all the evidence against it.
Now, I would regard Graff and Ender differently. Looking at what they knew at the time, fearing the Buggers was perfectly rational. It was wrong, but still rational. What is more, as far as they knew they couldn't even communicate with them to negotiate. Thus, while their course was not the only course, it was not an evil one.
On a side note, I have often wondered about a what Mazer said to Ender when Ender asked him about whether the MD device would work on a planet. He said "Ender, the buggers never deliberately attacked a civilian population in either invasion. You decide whether it would be wise to adopt a strategy that would invite reprisals." I suspect he was covering for himself here, trying to avoid the blame for whatever happened. Did anyone else get that from the passage?
Posts: 285 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But how much difference does it make to the victim?
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Squicky
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
