posted
Which I think may bring me to a question - I picked up this book (as well as my Stone Edition Tanach) at a local 'Chosen Treasures' Jewish store. I kept feeling distinctly out of place, and wondered if, even with being blatantly non-Jewish (I'm Blonde Hair, Blue Eyes, Red Goatee), if there is anything I should particularly know (concerning dress or etiquette )to avoid causing any sort of unintended offense? I mean, it's not like I'm walking around the store in a Jesus Loves You shirt, munching on a ham sandwich and calling out the Name of Hashem. But still...
Of course, they already probably find someone who looks like me buying Tanach and Talmud unusual, and are probably far more confused than anything *grin*
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quote:Originally posted by Taalcon: anything I should particularly know (concerning dress or etiquette )to avoid causing any sort of unintended offense?
Not particularly. But if it is a really black-hatty religious crowd, you may want to be aware that many have the custom of men not touching women. Not even a little, like when they hand you the change. So sometimes you'll see a man put the money on the counter for the woman to pick up, rather than just handing it to her.
There is no need for you to explain yourself, or make excuses.
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quote: Makes me think of what Dennis Prager considers the essence of Judaism, if I read him correctly. (I bet I could get a lot of different answers to THAT question: what is the essence of Judaism?) He thought it was "ethical monotheism," that is, God exists, and wants us to behave well toward each other. Seems to be backed up, at least partly, by Micah 6:8.
According to starLisa, the "essence of Judaism" is that the Torah is the Law of God. Is she incorrect?
That's a gross simplification. And it ignores all of the details.
Hillel the Elder said: "What's hateful to you, don't do to others. That's the whole Torah; the rest is the details."
It all depends on your perspective. Maimonides has 13 Principles that are absolutely basic to Judaism. All of these are true.
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posted
Does anyone know of an online shop where I could get a really nice kippah for my wedding? Way too many options out there in google land.
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posted
Oh, Stephan. Please don't. I get that you're going to do what you're going to do, but please don't make it worse than it has to be.
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posted
I'm a little late with the question, and I don't have time to read all the pages to see if it's already been asked, so I'm going to post it anyway.
Do Jews believe that Christians will go to heaven?
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posted
The jury is out among Jews on what exactly goes on in the afterlife. It is not actually a part of the theology that we stress.
However, there is no requirement for all the people to follow the Jewish laws in order to be deemed good people. There are righteous gentiles. Basically what G'd requires of the Gentiles is that they follow the Seven Noachide Laws.Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:5. Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
Does this mean eating parts of an animal that is STILL living? As in, I can't have a chicken leg while the chicken is still alive?
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Yeah. I mean, people don't do it so much. I think you can assume that any chickens you buy at the store are from dead birds, and that there isn't some bizarre farm out there with amputee chickens hobbling around on crutches.
But, if I recall correctly, they do castrate bulls and then sell the castrated parts to be eaten as "Rocky Mountain Oysters". If this is a part of a living animal, then this would be something that G'd has said you shouldn't eat.
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posted
Thanks, Tante. One more question, if you don't mind.
I was looking around that website, and I noticed- sometimes they write "G-d" and sometimes they write "God," even on the same page. WHat's the difference?
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posted
I was wondering if any of our Jewish members would mind sharing some about their Purim traditions?
Due to some recent, er, discontent, I add very clearly here that this IS for a course I'm doing right now - Anthropology of Religion. If you don't mind being quoted or referenced, I'd appreciate it, and I will still ask personally before including anything.
I don't know many Jews - of any stripe, Hassidic, Reconstructionist, or anything in between - IRL, so I don't have anyone I could ask. I have all the academic stuffs and descriptions, but it really doesn't give me a look at how real people celebrate in their own lives.
Posts are more than wonderful, but if anyone is willing to talk with me in IM, my AIM name is "ea quae legit", minus the spaces.
posted
The day before Purim is a day of fasting, although it is permitted to go to work. After the fast, in the evening, everybody goes to synagogue to hear the chanting of Megillas Esther (the Book of Esther). It is read from a scroll in the original Hebrew, and it is commanded that we hear every single word -- so the congregation is seriously paying attention, and following along in their own copies.
The tradition is that when the reader says the name "Haman" -- the villain in the story -- that we make a big noise to drown out his name. So people come to shul with noisemakers and horns and the like. Kids love this part. It is also a tradition to dress in costume for the holiday, so just about all of the kids are dressed up as either Queen Esther, King Achashverosh, or a Power Ranger. Some adults get dressed up, too. I always do.
After this is over, people have a festive meal, including everyone's favorite Purim treat, Hamentashen (triangular cookies with a tasty filling). We are commanded to give to charity on the holiday and to give gifts of food (more hamentashen! also, kitkat bars, potato chips and twizzlers!) to our friends. All day, people are coming to our door delivering the food baskets, called Shaloch Manot, and we are distributing ours. During the day, we have another festive meal that includes treats from these baskets (hamentashen! potato chips! twizzlers! Hershey's!)
Kids really like this holiday.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I was looking around that website, and I noticed- sometimes they write "G-d" and sometimes they write "God," even on the same page. What's the difference?
Names of God are not generally written out, lest they be erased. However, there is some debate as to whether the word "God" is a Name.
(It should be obvious from my posts where I stand on this. )
And some people are just being cautious.
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posted
Esther (heh!) forgot one other reason kids like the holiday. Many people send kids as messengers to deliver shalach manos (which are supposed to be "sent," as per the name -- shalach means sent), and the messengers are typically rewarded. With sugary treats, or with cash (usually somewhere between a quarter and a dollar).
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posted
I'm still kind of confused as to why they would change the name in the same sentance... but oh well, it's not that big a deal. Thanks!
On a more personal level, I've been doing a lot of serious soul-searching. I've been a Christian for a few years, but recently, a few very serious doubts have come to mind(I'm not going to discuss those here- they're WAY too personal). I believe in God, however, and I love him with all my heart. It's Christ I'm doubting. Due to this, I've seriously been looking at Judaism. Unfortunately, I have a few problems. 1.- I don't know of any synagogues in my area, and I don't know any Jews in my area that I could talk to to find out more. 2.-I love bacon. 3.-My parents would never support a decision like that. 4.-I love bacon. 5.-I'm hopelessly ignorant of just about everything Jewish. 6.-I love bacon.
Can anyone help me?
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quote:I'm still kind of confused as to why they would change the name in the same sentence...
Just a guess, but maybe one person wrote it and another edited? Or someone went through editing, and missed some? Or the person who wrote it can't decide whether it's a Name or not?
quote:On a more personal level, I've been doing a lot of serious soul-searching. I've been a Christian for a few years, but recently, a few very serious doubts have come to mind(I'm not going to discuss those here- they're WAY too personal). I believe in God, however, and I love him with all my heart. It's Christ I'm doubting. Due to this, I've seriously been looking at Judaism. Unfortunately, I have a few problems. 1.- I don't know of any synagogues in my area, and I don't know any Jews in my area that I could talk to to find out more. 2.-I love bacon. 3.-My parents would never support a decision like that. 4.-I love bacon. 5.-I'm hopelessly ignorant of just about everything Jewish. 6.-I love bacon.
posted
I did not see a single Power Ranger this year. I did see a whole bunch of Harry Potters, though (including two female ones).
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posted
Not really. Well, in some ways, yes. Most (religious) Jews do not celebrate Halloween and do celebrate Purim.
But no, in that the two are related only by costumes (and not even by TYPE of costumes -- Halloween costumes are often "dark" while Purim costumes tend to the happy and cheerful). The holidays are otherwise completely dissimilar.
So Purim no more "replaces" Halloween than Chanuka "replaces" Xmas.
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posted
I'll admit to not having read through this very long thread so if you have already answered this question, please forgive me.
It is my understanding that a big big difference between the beliefs of Christians and Jews is that Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Jews do not believe the Messiah has come yet. Is that a correct assumption first of all and if so, what qualities did Jesus not possess that keep him from being considered the Messiah?
Also a non-practicing Jewish friend mentioned yesterday the idea of not knowing what happens in the afterlife and I see that Tante says the same thing. The idea that our ticket to heaven is only received through Jesus is a BIG deal in Christianity. I I guess I never thought that the idea of heaven itself was a more Christian idea. Hmmm.
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quote:So Purim no more "replaces" Halloween than Chanuka "replaces" Xmas.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that Jews needed to replace a holiday like Halloween with their own version of it. I'm aware that they're not about the same thing at all, but some of the festivities sounded similar, so I wondered if y'all did both. I could've worded my question better, but it would've been longer. (I'm trying to wean myself of my verbosity.) How's this:
"So with the dressing up and all the sweets, it sounds like you don't even really need Halloween. (Not that anyone needs Halloween, but it would just seem like sugar overkill if you did both.) Hey, I never thought of that before: do Jews celebrate Halloween?"
That's what I really meant.
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quote: Also a non-practicing Jewish friend mentioned yesterday the idea of not knowing what happens in the afterlife and I see that Tante says the same thing. The idea that our ticket to heaven is only received through Jesus is a BIG deal in Christianity. I I guess I never thought that the idea of heaven itself was a more Christian idea. Hmmm.
From what I understand, take every idea on what you think could happen in the afterlife and there is a Jewish group that believes it.
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posted
Rephrasing accepted, Jenna. Sorry if I was snippy; too many people I have met really do think that Jews need to "replace" other holidays.
Mandy, I hope you will forgive me if I am lazy and link you to the relevant parts of the thread. Views on the afterlife And rather than restate what someone else has already put better, I'll send you over to the wonderful Judaism 101 site to answer your other query.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I'm a little late with the question, and I don't have time to read all the pages to see if it's already been asked, so I'm going to post it anyway.
Do Jews believe that Christians will go to heaven?
We don't believe in heaven and hell.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: The day before Purim is a day of fasting, although it is permitted to go to work. After the fast, in the evening, everybody goes to synagogue to hear the chanting of Megillas Esther (the Book of Esther). It is read from a scroll in the original Hebrew, and it is commanded that we hear every single word -- so the congregation is seriously paying attention, and following along in their own copies.
The tradition is that when the reader says the name "Haman" -- the villain in the story -- that we make a big noise to drown out his name. So people come to shul with noisemakers and horns and the like. Kids love this part.
There's a custom that I've mostly seen in Israel to also make a big noise when the reader says the phrase "And King Ahasuerus levied a tax" at the beginning of chapter 10.
Also, because of the requirement to hear every single word, after the congregation makes the noise to drown out the name of Haman, the reader has to repeat his name before going on. It's kind of paradoxical.
This is a thing I wrote about Purim on my blog, if you're interested. It's more about the meaning of Purim than the incidental customs surrounding it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I'm still kind of confused as to why they would change the name in the same sentance... but oh well, it's not that big a deal. Thanks!
On a more personal level, I've been doing a lot of serious soul-searching. I've been a Christian for a few years, but recently, a few very serious doubts have come to mind(I'm not going to discuss those here- they're WAY too personal). I believe in God, however, and I love him with all my heart. It's Christ I'm doubting. Due to this, I've seriously been looking at Judaism. Unfortunately, I have a few problems. 1.- I don't know of any synagogues in my area, and I don't know any Jews in my area that I could talk to to find out more. 2.-I love bacon. 3.-My parents would never support a decision like that. 4.-I love bacon. 5.-I'm hopelessly ignorant of just about everything Jewish. 6.-I love bacon.
Can anyone help me?
I like bacon, too. I love ribs. And beef ribs just don't cut it (I didn't grow up observant).
I'd recommend the Noachide path, really. I think Judaism is unique in this. Every other religion I've ever heard of either says "live and let live" or "convert, or you burn in hell". We don't believe that God wants everyone to take on the extra burdens of being Jewish. Those who really, really want to can, of course, but a non-Jew who keeps all of the Noachide laws is no less in God's eyes than a Jew who keeps all of Jewish law. And it's a darn sight easier to do.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: So Purim no more "replaces" Halloween than Chanuka "replaces" Xmas.
Especially since Purim and Hanukkah each predate Halloween and Christmas. In many ways, Halloween even seems to be a copy of Purim, with trick or treating imitating the giving of food on Purim.
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quote:Originally posted by MandyM: I'll admit to not having read through this very long thread so if you have already answered this question, please forgive me.
It is my understanding that a big big difference between the beliefs of Christians and Jews is that Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Jews do not believe the Messiah has come yet. Is that a correct assumption first of all and if so, what qualities did Jesus not possess that keep him from being considered the Messiah?
Well, first of all, you need to understand that "messiah" never meant what it does in English. It doesn't mean "savior". It doesn't mean anything mystical. The word merely means "anointed", which was something that was done to kings and high priests as a sign of office. It's even part of the English coronation ceremony today, if I'm not mistaken.
The Messiah we're waiting for is the anointed king of the Davidic dynasty. God promised that this dynasty would be restored, and that the king in question would restore many things.
Now... it's not even a given that the person the Christians call Jesus ever existed. Pardon me if this offends you, but you did ask. Many of us just stipulate to the man's existence, because it really isn't a major issue. Even if he lived, he certainly wasn't the Messiah promised to us by God.
Please understand that I'm speaking from a Jewish perspective now, about what we think and believe.
Jesus was not a king. Descent from David doesn't make one a king. If it did, we'd be inundated by kings. Also, the Christian view is that Jesus was not the blood son of Joseph, and while Jewishness is determined matrilineally, tribal and familial relationships are determined patrilineally. To be a legitimate king of the Davidic dynasty, your father must be a direct descendant of David as well. Adoption doesn't count.
The Messiah needs to do a number of things. He needs to actually lead the Jews. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring the exiled Jews back to Israel. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to restore and/or strengthen our sovereignty there, and Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring Jews closer to God and the Torah, and Jesus did the exact opposite.
More than anything, he needs not to die in the middle of it all.
Rabbi Akiva ben Joseph, one of the greatest Jewish sages of all time, believed that Simeon Bar Kochva, who led a revolt against Rome in the 2nd century CE, was, or could be, the Messiah. But he was killed. So he wasn't.
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Also a non-practicing Jewish friend mentioned yesterday the idea of not knowing what happens in the afterlife and I see that Tante says the same thing. The idea that our ticket to heaven is only received through Jesus is a BIG deal in Christianity. I I guess I never thought that the idea of heaven itself was a more Christian idea. Hmmm.
We believe in the afterlife, but it's a very important tenet to us that we do what's right because God commanded it. Not because we're maneuvering for a ticket to a better seat in the afterlife.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Oh, Stephan. Please don't. I get that you're going to do what you're going to do, but please don't make it worse than it has to be.
I've done a lot of reading, a lot of thinking, and right or wrong it's all I know.
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Thanks also to starLisa for your post as well. One part of Christianity that has always bothered me is why Jews did not jump on the idea that Jesus is the Messiah. It makes sense now that he was just not who you are expecting. It seems to me from what you have said and what I've read that rather than a personal savior, Jews are waiting for a savior for the people of Israel and the world as a whole, and it is more about life on Earth than the afterlife.
I also did not realize that the Torah is only the first 5 books of the Old Testament rather than all of it. But there is a difference between written and oral parts as well, right?
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From what I understand it completes the torah, sort of fills in the gaps. The Orthodox understand it to have been given along with the written one to Moses at Sinai.
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Oh, I may have missed this, or missed a link, but, why are Jews so sure that the messiah is going to come as expected, and fulfill the expectations that you have of him in the way that you expect?
I mean it all sounds very good, but how do you know that is what God really has in store for you?
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Oh, I may have missed this, or missed a link, but, why are Jews so sure that the messiah is going to come as expected, and fulfill the expectations that you have of him in the way that you expect?
I mean it all sounds very good, but how do you know that is what God really has in store for you?
The short answer, its in the torah.
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quote:In many ways, Halloween even seems to be a copy of Purim, with trick or treating imitating the giving of food on Purim.
Don't get ahead of yourself.
I'm not sure what you mean. Why is there trick or treating on Halloween? We know why we give gifts of food on Purim.
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posted
Irish/Scottish folks used to leave food out for the spirits of the dead on Nov. 1. This eventually got changed to children dressing up as goblins and such and begging for treats.
So, no-- no holiday plagiarism going on here.
It's not complete, but here's the wiki for Halloween: HalloweenPosts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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From what I understand it completes the torah, sort of fills in the gaps. The Orthodox understand it to have been given along with the written one to Moses at Sinai.
It doesn't complete the Torah. It is the Torah. Most of it, anyway.
What you call the Old Testament is, more or less, what we call the Tanach, an acronym for Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).
These three sections were given to us with differing levels of communication with God. The Torah was given directly from God. The books of the Prophets were written by authors who were communicating somewhat less clearly with God, a state we call prophecy. And the books of the Writings were written in a state of what we call ruach ha-kodesh, which could be translated as Holy Spirit (yes, that's where Christians got the term from), or divine inspiration. Think of it as "prophecy lite".
Prophets: (Early Prophets) Joshua Judges Samuel Kings (Late Prophets) Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel The Twelve
Writings: Psalms Proverbs Job Song of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Daniel Ezra/Nehemiah Chronicles
Later, the books of Kings, Chronicles and Ezra/Nehemiah were split into two books each (not by us), but the above 24 are what we consider the Bible.
Notice that it's not all in chronological order, because the degree of perception of God is more important than that.
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Oh, I may have missed this, or missed a link, but, why are Jews so sure that the messiah is going to come as expected, and fulfill the expectations that you have of him in the way that you expect?
Because God said so, pretty much.
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: I mean it all sounds very good, but how do you know that is what God really has in store for you?
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Irish/Scottish folks used to leave food out for the spirits of the dead on Nov. 1. This eventually got changed to children dressing up as goblins and such and begging for treats.
So, no-- no holiday plagiarism going on here.
It's not complete, but here's the wiki for Halloween: Halloween
I wouldn't be surprised if a non-biased historian (if one exists) would say the door-to-door treats idea originated with some other culture altogether, and adopted by both seperately.
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posted
Yeah, ok, the old testament, the torah. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth. Which in turn created generations of people waiting with anticipation for something that makes perfect sense because that is what their hopes and desires go toward. Doesn't God sometimes work in ways people don't expect?
How are the Jews in general sure that the prophesies or promises weren't more figurative, or that they haven't been shaped a bit by human desires?
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Yeah, ok. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth. Which in turn created generations of people waiting with anticipation for something that makes perfect sense because that is what their hopes and desires go toward. Doesn't God sometimes work in ways people don't expect?
Your speaking (typing, whatever) to someone who "knows" that the Hewbrew Scriptures were given to the Jewish people by G-d at Mt. Sinai. From this point of view, Jews are are just doing what G-d wants them to do, and waiting for what G-d told them would happen.
I can see how an outsider would say that some old Jew made it all up thousands of years ago. But if you truly believe that G-d did the above, then taking it all literally is the only option.
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Yeah, ok, the old testament, the torah. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth. Which in turn created generations of people waiting with anticipation for something that makes perfect sense because that is what their hopes and desires go toward.
To me that doesn't sound any different then Christians waiting for Jesus to come back.
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Yeah, ok, the old testament, the torah. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth.
Um... maybe you haven't noticed, but we haven't had a whole lot of "Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth". What we take literally is that when we don't do what God says, we get our rear ends handed to us. The standard we have to live up to is exceedingly high.
If you were right, we'd actually do what the early Christians did. Declare that God had given us a panacea, and that we could just get forgiven in a confessional.
We're stuck with what God actually did tell us, and believe me when I say that it's not wish fulfillment in any way, shape or form. We're not that masochistic.
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Which in turn created generations of people waiting with anticipation for something that makes perfect sense because that is what their hopes and desires go toward. Doesn't God sometimes work in ways people don't expect?
Yup. Try this:
quote:The Talmud in Sanhedrin relates that the great sage, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, once met Elijah the prophet at the entrance to Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai’s* cave "Will I merit a portion in the world to come?" asked the sage of the prophet.
"If this Master so desires," replied Elijah, referring to the Divine presence which had manifested itself in their midst.
"When will the Messiah come? Rabbi Yehoshua asked.
"Go and ask him," Elijah replied.
"Where does he dwell?"
"At the entrance to the city of Rome."
"And how shall I identify him?"
"He dwells among the illness-stricken paupers. But while they remove all their bandages at once, (to wipe the wounds), and then replace them, the Messiah removes only one bandage at a time, so that he can replace it promptly if he is called upon to redeem the Children of Israel."
Rabbi Yehoshuah went and found the Messiah. "Peace unto you, my master and teacher," said the sage.
"Peace unto you, son of Levi," replied the Messiah.
"When are you coming, Master?" Rabbi Yehoshua asked.
"Today," the Messiah answered.
When the day was over, Rabbi Yehoshua again met Elijah.
"What did he tell you?" asked the prophet.
"He said, ‘Peace unto you son of Levi.’"
"Then you are assured of a portion in the world to come. Were you and your father not perfectly righteous, he would not have returned your greeting, nor would he have mentioned your father’s name."
"He did not tell me the truth!" Rabbi Yehoshua complained. "He told me he would come today, but he has not come!"
Elijah explained to Rabbi Yehoshua the meaning behinds the Messiah’s response : "He was alluding to the verse in Psalms (95), which says of the Messiah’s arrival that it will be, ‘Today, if you listen to His voice’" (i.e., if the Jewish People repent).
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: How are the Jews in general sure that the prophesies or promises weren't more figurative, or that they haven't been shaped a bit by human desires?
Because they were prophecies. Made by prophets. Who had been vetted according to the procedures given to us by God at Sinai. They weren't just things that someone happened to say. That's one of the reasons why we distinguish between the levels of communication with God that are behind each of the books of the Bible.
And Stephen, do me a favor, would you? Say what you think. Please don't say what I think. With all due respect, I think I can do a better and more appropriate job of that. I don't mean to step on your toes, but I don't need an interpreter.
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posted
I apoligize if it came off that way, I just get upset when an argument is given against the belief of any religion, based solely on the nature of the belief itself. If a Jew had said the same thing about Christians waiting for Jesus to come back, I would have stepped in with something very simililar. If it means anything, I really was stating what I believe, and not what I think you believe.
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