posted
How in the heck do you tell him to bugger off politely?
I understand that for many people, praying for someone else is a way of trying ot help, expressing concern, etc. But praying for someone is like anything else: sometimes the person doesn't want the form of help you are offering to give. It seems to me that its considered ok for people to say "No, thank you, I don't want anyone bringing food even though my mother just passed away and its traditional," or, basically, no to any form of activist help.
But if someone offers to pray for you, and respond "please don't," people take extreme offense.
I don't WANT people to pray for me. Its not productive, and, to me, it feels like a way for people to pretend that they care enough to help, without actually doing anything. Its sortof like, if your car breaks down, someone stopping, pulling over, saying "Damn, that sucks," and driving off without asking if you need a lift, or want him to call for a tow-truck.
Now, OBVIOUSLY, the people offering to pray think that its going to do something... although I think th eoverwhelming evidence is against the idea it does any good when we consider the number of unanswered prayers that are offered up every day, and have been for all of human history.
Which brings me back to my question: If you don't have the human decency to ask if I would like a certain form of help, and the help is something I can't actually prevent you from giving, when someone tells me "I'm going to pray for you," how in the heck do I tell that person that this is not a desired form of help, and please don't go through it, without biting their head off?
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
You know, Paul - a very wise person told me once that part of my job as a considerate and kind person was to allow other people the opportunity to help me.
posted
If you don't believe that prayer can help you, do you think that prayer can HARM you? I mean...if you don't believe in prayer, why does it matter?
Are you seriously upset because people are showing concern for you in the way that THEY feel is most productive? Why should it matter to you? Are you feeling that these people who offer to pray for you are not willing to do any real work to help you with your problem?
I'm kind of grumpy about your post. *grin* Maybe I'll pray about it.
I think that you might propose something they can do in addition to the prayers (they're probably going to pray for you anyway, if they're serious about it), for instance (and you can say this nicely, since you ARE asking for help): "It's nice that you want to pray for me at this time of my mother's death, but it would also be helpful if you could assist me with the paperwork."
I'm sorry, but I just don't see the harm in it.
edit: Man! a lot of people said similar things while I was typing this! I agree with rivka and the others who agreed with me before they even knew they were agreeing with me. *grin*
posted
Let's put it this way, you belive in God all your life and you die, no heaven, no everlasting life, all that was wasted was an hour every Sunday and maybe some good deeds sprinkled here and there. But lets see the flip side, there is a God, well, you're gonna have whole lot of time to think about your mistake...
Posts: 48 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Janger: Bugger off. I'm perfectly aware of pascals wager, and unlike other people on this thread, you're just trolling.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I see a lot of similarities between this and the thread a few months ago (half a year ago?) on mormons baptizing the dead (relatives). There was a great deal of offense at that notion, but some people couldn't see where the offense lay.
I think Paul makes an interesting point. There are perfectly tactful ways of declining gifts and help. Why no tactful ways of declining prayer? Are you so offended that someone would decline your "gift" that you would never want someone to try to decline it?
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I like that jexx, rivka, and I each used different ways to emphasize "harm" in three simultaneous posts.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I just recall that I would be really embarrassed or ashamed when people would try to help me out - with whatever. I didn't know how to say "thanks - I appreciate the offer - here's what would be really helpful, if you're so inclined."
And the person that talked to me about this really impressed on me the importance of allowing other people to give to those in need.
If prayer is not what is needed, how about telling the concerned person what is?
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:I'm sorry, but I just don't see the harm in it.
Hey neither do I, but you know what, Paul does. When did we get to decide what another person should want done for them. Paul specifically doesn't want people to pray for him. What I've read so far is that he's wrong, so people should pray for him anyway.
Let's say you just had something bad happen and someone said, "I'll ritually sacrifice a chicken for you. That will help you out." Would you be thinking the same thing?
Janger, Let me present a slightly different scenario than the oft-destructed Pascal's Wager. You live your entire life as a Christian only because of the terms of the Wager (i.e. you want to get into Heaven and avoid Hell, if they exist). You die and come before God, who promptly sends you to Hell because you were never at any point in your life a sincere Christian. Furthermore, he lets your athiest friend in to Heaven because he acted in sincere accordance with his experience for his entire life. Frankly, I'm a lot happier with that kind of God than the childish one you're describing.
To butcher Sartre, "Hell is when you're other people."
posted
If someone is substituting prayer for some more tangible help they could give you, I can see why you might be somewhat upset.
But sometimes people offer to pray for you because they are at a loss as to what else they can do, and that seems to me to be a kind gesture at the least. For instance, if you told me about some problem you had while we were online, there's relatively little I can do to help you from out here, unless it was a situation where I could notify authorities where you are and you couldn't, or something like that. It'd be, at the least, a way of saying "I care and wish I could do more."
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Its an attempt to help me in a way that I don't want help. Its no different then my tow-truck example. Its just OBNOXIOUS. Its no less obnoxious then when people try to help in other ways, and you don't wnat it.
Does it HARM you if someone brings a casserole? no. It doesn't. It actually provides some material benefit. But if you don't want food assisstance, its annoying and hits a sore spot.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Let's say you just had something bad happen and someone said, "I'll ritually sacrifice a chicken for you. That will help you out." Would you be thinking the same thing?
Probably, but I'd ask him to sacrifice me some stuffing, too. And maybe some peas.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
There are two motivations I can see for someone to say "I'll pray for you."
1. They mean it as a form of comfort. Since they believe that having people pray for an individual will help that individual to cope with their problems, they believe that when you hear those words, they will give you added hope and strength. These people expect that even if you don't believe in the same efficacy of prayer that they do, you will at worst take their words to mean, "I'll be thinking about you," which for most people IS comforting.
2. They use that phrase as a means to make themselves look holy and spiritual. They say it to you, not so that you will feel better, but so that they will look superior to you. The more areligious you are, the more they gain from it.
Given these two motives, I can't really think of a good reason to tell them to bugger off. If they're sincere, then all they're doing is trying to comfort you, and snapping at them will only make you look like a jerk. And if they really are just being self-righteous, then reacting badly will only fuel their indignation. So just smile and nod, and then it will be over.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I see where you're coming from, Paul. It's almost like they're laying a burden on you. Too many people do favors, not for true altruism, but because they intend on the favor being returned.
I say, let them pray...and when they come to you asking for help, offer to help them harness their "chi" or through telekinesis. Maybe offer to Feng Shui their kitchen cabinets.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I don't like getting a lot of forms of help, because of the nature of who I am. However, when I tell people that i don't want them to do X for me, its generally taken reasonable... unless X is prayer. THen people tell me that I should just accept prayer because they mean it nicely. WHy should I accept it? I don't WANT it, it doesn't HELP me, and if its done for YOUR benefit, which it must be because you don't care about how it effects me, then it seems perfectly legitimate to tell someone to stop getting high on themselves over my problems.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I get that people are offering to pray think that it's going to help. The thing is, Paul doesn't think so. Would it be alright if he answered, "No thanks, that's not going to help." to offers to pray for him? If someone offers to make you some food, it's ok to refuse it because you don't need it. Do people think that you'd get the same reaction refusing a prayer as you would food?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
If someone says they're praying for you, in most cases you can take it as a compliment, if it seems to be meant sincerely as wishing well for you. Some people might take it as an expression of spiritual arrogance or presumption that they're spiritually superior, but you don't know that for sure, you're just acting on the basis of suspicion. In fact, that is presuming to judge them, which is also spiritually arrogant and presumptuous even on the part of an atheist. Since they are not outright insulting you, why get upset?
Of course, if someone says to you, "I'm going to pray for you because Heaven knows a reprobate like you really needs it," then I can see where you might take umbrage. Unless it's your best friend teasing you.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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In my opinion, Paul, it harms you because you allow it to. Here is my not quite the same analogy.
When I was younger and had a much lower opinion of myself, I would react with sarcasm when someone paid me a compliment. (Them: You look nice today. Me: Yeah, right.) Finally someone pointed out to me that I was perpetuating my low self-image as well as making those people feel bad about paying me a compliment. She suggested that I just say "Thank you" and be done with it even if I disagreed.
I don't want to take sides. I'm just trying to offer up another perspective. Personally, I would rather have someone say they'll pray for me and smile and nod than have them tell me I need to pray about the situation myself.
Posts: 1090 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Funny you should ask, Frisco - I just went grocery shopping this evening and I happen to have an organically grown/fed chicken just waiting to be stuffed.
When would you like to start on the kitchen?
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
See, the thing is, you can turn down somebody who offers to bring you food because, in addition to being helpful, it also inconveniences you. You have to put on clothes instead of moping around in your underwear, get the five day old dishes off the counter, etc. So the message you are sending is "thank you, but the convenience of having you bring food is not worth the hardship it would entail at this time," which is a fair response. (Although certainly not in so many words. But when somebody turns down my offer of help, I understand that what he needs is space or time or whatever.)
But somebody praying for you, while it may or may not work, does not inconvenience you in any way. When you say, "I don't want you to because it doesn't work anyway," that's more like saying "Please don't bring food. I've had your cooking and it sucks eggs." A much less gracious turn-down, in my opinion.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Paul, I don't have a problem with people responding to offers a prayer with "No thank you, it's not something I believe in." That's why I usually offer my 'warm thoughts' to someone who is having a hard time, unless I know they appreciate prayer. I just don't understand it. Also: being annoyed by it doesn't make sense to me. And in addition: your original post seemed confrontational about it and it made me grumpy.
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If you told me to not pray because you didn't believe in it anyway, all you will have done is caused me to pray for you even more. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be confrontational.
its something that has pissed me off for a while, and i'm getting to t he point where I DO want to say "bugger off" when people say they will pray for me. When people ASK if its ok, thats great! I still don't want the prayer, but at least they recognize that its maybe not something that is appreciated. But most of the time, people get upset if you don't appreciate teh prayer. Fine, I can understand that... but if thats the case, why is it not ok for ME to be upset when you offer?
I know my dislike is irrational, but that doesn't change the point that I don't want people to pray for me. Its also irrational that I don't like about 800000 other forms of help. But with those, people are fine with the help being rejected.
Anyrate, I was honestly trying to ask how to do this politely and wasn't trying to be offensive about it.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
LOL, Paul, I was just going to say "THAT was confrontational!"
*grin*
It would irritate me if I asked not to be prayed for, and someone told me to my face that they were going to do it anyway, yes. But Belle is very polite and wouldn't tell you that to your face unless she knew you very well (I think). And I would never punch Belle. She is very strong! She's a mom, you know! Moms are scarystrong!
posted
Paul, perhaps you could explain that you worship a jealous god who will flay you alive if another god lays even a finger on you, but that if the well-wisher REALLY wants to help, they can convert to your church and round up some chickens. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
If someone insists on praying for you, and tells you as much, then you should let them know that you plan on increasing your rate of sinning to make up for it.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
*wonders how many chickens she'll have to cook in order to get her kitchen cabinets organized nicely*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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