quote:We can't write off 11600 people saying "they were bad and we weren't" because we know that isn't true.
No, the Christian says "They were bad and so are we. We all deserve death and eternal condemnation and only by the grace of God manifested by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ are some spared that condemnation."
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
No wonder Christian fundies are so against anything but the missionary position. Who needs kinky sex with that sort of masochistic view of life?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am reminded of a strip from my favourite comic, Nemi, (which is in Norwegian, so linking wouldn't do much good.) I'll try to translate :
(A bar; a man sits and drinks coffee at a table. Another, at the bar, turns towards him with a questioning look on his face.)
Atheist : "I see you wear a cross. So I guess you're a Christian? That's ok by me, as long as you don't preach. I can't stand people who preach. Who come up to you and
(The atheist is leaning on the table, the Christian leaning backwards to get out of his personal space)
Atheist : try to, like, push you into believing what they do. I don't believe in anything, me. It's too stupid, like, to believe that there is some guy in the skies thinking to himself : That one goes to heaven, that one to the ovens. Virgins with buns in the oven, talking moss. You would have to be totally nuts to believe that. But sure, whatever. As long as you don't preach!
(Atheist is gone. Christian drinks his coffee. He hasn't said a word.)
Now, I see the point comrade Myhre is making, here. But it seems to me you might as well draw the opposite lesson : If I really believe that Christianity is a corrupting influence, and I do, is it not then my duty to try to rescue its victims by any means possible? In a word, to preach.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah, tactics. Well, reasoned argument clearly has not worked, yes? On the other hand, belittling the beliefs of heathens was for centuries a standard tactic for Christian missionaries, and that seems to have worked quite well.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Plus, it has the added advantage of allowing you to indulge your desire to act like a jerk. Win-win for you, eh?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
I'm telling you, people who interact in the way he has are deliberately trying to evoke a negative spirit because they feed off of it. If you ignore him, then he's doing all the giving without getting anything in return.
I know you want to be fair-minded, but there comes a point where you're throwing good money after bad. Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jerk or none, I observe that you do not seem to be able to come up with any actual arguments, other than to point out how rude I am being. On that score, for my future instruction, can you think of a less offensive way of putting the arguments I have been making in the Nephite thread? The comparison of Napoleon and god, for example; it seems to me a valid argument, deserving of some response. I really did not put that forth with the intention of being offensive : I was trying to make a fruitful analogy. Can you suggest a better way of making the same point?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't been able to read all this thread, so I may be hopelessly off the subject by now, knowing how these discussions mutate, but here's what I believe: In the Book of Mormon an angel asks Nephi if he understands a concept the angel's been explaining, and Nephi says something close to, "Well, I don't understand everything, but I know that God loves his children." I'm with Nephi on this matter: I don't understand exactly WHY so many people had to die, but I KNOW that God loves all his children (ie all of humanity), specifically, individually. That knowledge has come as I've had some pretty tough experiences involving people I love and have been unable to help as much as I would have.
I also believe that at some stage of our premortal existence we were given the opportunity to understand what being born into mortal life on earth would entail, all the joys, blessings, challenges, tragedies, and horrific experiences that such a life would entail, and we "shouted for joy" at the chance, because we knew that the payoff would be more than worth the price. That's what I believe.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fair enough, I see I have annoyed you past the point where you want to continue the discussion, and I apologise. Would you care to address the other question in my previous post, since it deals not with content but form?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm going to avoid the bulk of the conversations here and ask a question.
What, if anything, do you gain by digging at a religion to expose the holes? Do you get points? Do you win? Do you expect religionists to suddenly see the light and go, "Oh, of course! Why have I been listening to this silly Bible, anyway?"
I can see value in drawing out explanations of religious tenets, or in comparing one to another. I can see value in seeking understanding of other people by learning about their beliefs. I can see earnestly wanting to know why someone believes what they believe, and how that belief is shaken or strengthened by disasters such as this.
But -- and I ask this of you after taking years to wean myself from the exact same habit -- why pick at a religion you don't believe in to force its believers to defend and validate it in a way you deem acceptable?
[ December 30, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"why pick at a religion you don't believe in to force its believers to defend and validate it in a way you deem acceptable?"
Well, for my part, it's two-fold: 1) I am, as I declared earlier, an evangelical agnostic. This was a conscious decision, designed to hopefully reduce the number of people in the world who are willing to worship a God who intends to kill me.
2) If, in one of our discussions, we happen across something that God would like to see publicly clarified or rebutted, I'd be really happy to have Him drop in. In all seriousness, I keep hoping. There's an old Indian parable about a devoted atheist that sustains me in my moments of weakness, and it applies here.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:So they made the decision for us. So now we see just how "well we do" without Him (not individually, but as a whole).
To me, it seems that true free will would have been something offered to each of us with the same set of pre-existing conditions.
I didn't choose the era I was born, my parents, my skin color, my sex, the country I was born into, etc., so how can I have the same "free will" as Adam and Eve. I don't even have the same "free will" as my neighbor.
I don't know that I "chose" to believe in God. I always have. He is as real to me air.
For me, the only way I can reconcile the inconsistencies and tragedies of the physical world with the God that has sustained me through my life, is that God continues to claim dominion over the spiritual world, but is less active or non-active in the physical world.
I believe that God could employ the "might makes right" scenario, but I can't believe that I have a greater capacity to love my children than He has to love His. Because the physical world is inherently dynamic and unequal, I believe that that God is available to ease our way through it, just as I help my children to overcome obstacles when asked. But I don't believe that God would permanently banish His children from Him, just because through ignorance or environment, they neglected to ask for help.
As a side note, my 6 year old son, Jake, is constantly testing his understanding of God's power. Yesterday he announced, "Mom, God has limits. He can't create Himself."
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Monitor died, I had no way of responding until now.
quote: Things like natural law, though, Ralphie, really break that for me.
Somehow you think God doesn't have to follow any rules either?
For example one of the rules we have come across are as such: Opposition in all things.
If God were to get rid of Satan (Who by the way as I believe wanted to get rid of the whole reason we are here, and for this reason is Satan) would he not become Satan, because he is breaking the rules of which are set.
However with progression you can change the balances, the more you learn the more you offset things in the way of 'Opposition'.
As for creation, you are saying that God just made us out of nothing for no reason. (Here again, I personally believe that he did not: He took 'lesser' beings and or substances *entites* and allowed them to learn and to progress.) Another law we all know and love: Matter can not be created or destroyed. Which fits quite nicely into the whole of "What is God bored?"
As for "Mormon historicity", it all comes back to some points I have made in other threads:
How can you trust anything that is taken down by another?
Anything not seen first hand could be false
As for the Tsunami, how do I know it is even happening? I haven't been there, I haven't seen such atrocities with my own eyes, and do not know any personally that have been effected.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, the numbers are getting up there with the average number of unborn aborted in the U.S. every month. That is a lot.
Posts: 666 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:I am, as I declared earlier, an evangelical agnostic. [Smile] This was a conscious decision, designed to hopefully reduce the number of people in the world who are willing to worship a God who intends to kill me.
You do realize that attempting to convert someone to your religious beliefs violates the TOS, right?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
This isn't related to any specific statement, but I am reminded by some of these issues of a talk given at the most recent LDS General Conference by Elder John H. Groberg. (you can read the talk in its entirety here.)
It offered a new perspective on suffering that I hadn't thought of before:
quote:As a young missionary I was assigned to a small island of about 700 inhabitants in a remote area of the South Pacific. To me the heat was oppressive, the mosquitoes were terrible, the mud was everywhere, the language was impossible, and the food was—well, "different."
After a few months our island was struck by a powerful hurricane. The devastation was massive. Crops were ruined, lives were lost, housing was blown away, and the telegraph station—our only link to the outside world—was destroyed. A small government boat normally came every month or two, so we rationed our food to last four or five weeks, hoping the boat would come. But no boat came. Every day we became weaker. There were acts of great kindness, but as the sixth and seventh weeks passed with very little food, our strength slipped noticeably. My native companion, Feki, helped me in every way he could, but as the eighth week commenced, I had no energy. I just sat under the shade of a tree and prayed and read scriptures and spent hours and hours pondering the things of eternity.
The ninth week began with little outward change. However, there was a great inward change. I felt the Lord's love more deeply than ever before and learned firsthand that His love "is the most desirable above all things . . . yea, and the most joyous to the soul" (1 Nephi 11:22–23).
I was pretty much skin and bones by now. I remember watching, with deep reverence, my heart beating, my lungs breathing, and thinking what a marvelous body God has created to house our equally marvelous spirit! The thought of a permanent union of these two elements, made possible through the Savior's love, atoning sacrifice, and Resurrection, was so inspiring and satisfying that any physical discomfort faded into oblivion.
When we understand who God is, who we are, how He loves us, and what His plan is for us, fear evaporates. When we get the tiniest glimpse of these truths, our concern over worldly things vanishes. To think we actually fall for Satan's lies that power, fame, or wealth is important is truly laughable—or would be were it not so sad.
I learned that just as rockets must overcome the pull of gravity to roar into space, so we must overcome the pull of the world to soar into the eternal realms of understanding and love. I realized my mortal life might end there, but there was no panic. I knew life would continue, and whether here or there didn't really matter. What did matter was how much love I had in my heart. I knew I needed more! I knew that our joy now and forever is inextricably tied to our capacity to love.
As these thoughts filled and lifted my soul, I gradually became aware of some excited voices. My companion Feki's eyes were dancing as he said, "Kolipoki, a boat has arrived, and it is full of food. We are saved! Aren't you excited?" I wasn't sure, but since the boat had come, that must be God's answer, so yes, I was happy. Feki gave me some food and said, "Here, eat." I hesitated. I looked at the food. I looked at Feki. I looked into the sky and closed my eyes.
I felt something very deep. I was grateful my life here would go on as before; still, there was a wistful feeling—a subtle sense of postponement, as when darkness closes the brilliant colors of a perfect sunset and you realize you must wait for another evening to again enjoy such beauty.
posted
"You do realize that attempting to convert someone to your religious beliefs violates the TOS, right?"
If what I'm doing is considered an attempt of that sort, there's certainly a long line of people waiting to be banned in front of me. *shrug* There is clearly a fine line, here, and I'd like to believe that it's no more fine for agnostics than for those of faith.
"Somehow you think God doesn't have to follow any rules either?"
The traditional Christian God does not. As I've said before, I have no problem with the logical consistency of Mormon theology. What keeps me from being a Mormon is two-fold: barring testimony, its complete ahistoricity makes it incredible; and, of course, looking for testimony, I pinged God with the BoM and didn't get a response. So the ball's in His court if He wants me to be a Mormon, AFAIC.
More traditional Christian faiths, which cannot resort to the "God has rules that He, too, must obey," have other philosophical problems.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:If what I'm doing is considered an attempt of that sort, there's certainly a long line of people waiting to be banned in front of me. *shrug* There is clearly a fine line, here, and I'd like to believe that it's no more fine for agnostics than for those of faith.
Actually, I've never thought you were exceeding the limits of the rule. BUT, you are now admitting your intent to do so.
posted
That's not what I meant Tom. When I post about religion, it is in response to a question or comment made by someone else. It is never to attempt to convert someone.
posted
I give people the benefit of the doubt. As I gave it to you until you showed there was no doubt. You are evangelizing, and the intent is relevant under the rules.
Dagonee P.S., not that I'm against evangelizing. Just not against our hosts' wishes here.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I may try to resolve giving up debating over religions. I have my own one anyway... It suits me just fine.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:This is the pointless contradiction phase of things, where bland assertions are given the rhetorical response they deserve.
Whoa, a high handed dismissal from a Christian. Didn't see that one coming!
quote:"They were bad and so are we. We all deserve death and eternal condemnation and only by the grace of God manifested by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ are some spared that condemnation."
This statement may be 100% true. But when I ask "why?" The only answer a traditional Christian will ever give is "because God said so."
Edit: to once again qualify that my comments don't refer to LDS theology.
posted
From the article Noemon linked, I noted immediately that the atheist explanation was the only couched in the negative (Religion, or prayer, or faith cannot...), and also that it was couched as opposition to a proposition that at best is a subset of all these faiths.
quote: For me, god is like Gandalf. He cannot directly interfere in our lives, but he brings courage and hope to all people willing to receive it.
Woah, cool way of explaining your belief vwiggin, I've never heard it explained that way before. Thats the first explanation of god where the idea actually appealed to me, all the others I've heard have made me go "What? Are you kidding me? I sure hope there isn't a God like that!" (mind you I only got as far as that post in this thread when I posted this, so I may yet hear.. *cough* read more I like)
For me I'm with KarlEd. We know the natural forces that caused it. They are what they are, no god anywhere there. Personally I feel that god is the creation of frightened human minds that can't stand the idea of the unknown. Reality is harsh, imho we created the idea of god to soften the harshness of reality and to explain the unknown so we could live with some peace of mind. If people want to do that, more power to them. I'm ok with the harshness of reality, it is what it is, I make the best of it.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Ralphie.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
