quote: Anyone else think there is an element of "and then a miracle occurs" in both the marriages of Shasta and Aravis and Prince Caspian and the star daughter? Was that intended? If so, why didn't Lewis include the messier part?
Do you mean that the marriages were too simple? Porter is reading the Narnia stories to our son, and he commented just the other day about a political problem being glossed over and solved *way* too easily. So it definitely isn't just marriage he does this with. It is a repeating pattern in his books.
I think it is because he is writing fairy tales for children, and in his mind fairy tales are not "messy", regardless of the subject.
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Kat, maybe you need to step back and re-read everything. I haven't even been part of this discussion, yet looking at if objectively - Dag is not guilty of what you're accusing him of.
You said:
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe that's why The Last Battle is irritating me - I disagree with Lewis' theology. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dag said:
quote:That a large part of the reason Kat thinks it doesn't work as allegory could very well be that she doesn't believe all (and likely doesn't know at least some) of the beliefs being allegorized.
I don't think what he said was unreasonable.
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I don't agree with you, Belle. I don't want to discuss it.
Let's talk about Lewis.
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Bev, you're right about the political things also being solved very easily. Not everything is non-messy - the relationship between Eustace and Reepicheep is kind of a mess, so some relationships are elaborated on.
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Perhaps he only expounds on things he thinks his intended audience can grasp. Perhaps he believes most kids would find politics boring and marriage "yucky".
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The messy things would be a source of conflict. Politics and the love thing are used by Card and Rowling to bring a little color and life into their books. Lewis must use other things...it can't all come from the religious tension.
He's pretty good at sibling relationships, I thought.
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Oh, Dag, I found what you had to say about LDS beliefs differing more from Lewis than most Christianity interesting. I have never thought of it that way--especially since most LDS are so very fond of Lewis' speculation and teaching about Christianity. I and many others have felt that his thoughts were inspired above and beyond a lot of what is "out there" about Christianity, and far closer to the LDS view than most.
Though it may be that there is still a wider gap, I don't know.
Even the highest leaders of the LDS church are extremely fond of quoting Lewis. Quotes of Lewis are abundant amongst their talks. I can't think of anyone in the Christian world (outside the scriptures, of course) more quoted by them.
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Actually, as I've listened to Porter reading the Narnia books to my son, I keep thinking, "Man, this guy sounds patronizing and condescending!" But I love the books anyway. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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In The Last Battle, Polly say about Susan, "Her idea is to rush to the silliest time of one's life and stay there for as long as possible." That gave me a very vivid picture as to why Susan wasn't a "friend to Narnia" anymore. I always pictured middle-aged women in miniskirts and tank tops and teenage girls who only date older guys - the type of people who wouldn't dare ever admit that they'd been to Narnia for fear of looking stupid or uncool.
Also, Aslan tells her and Peter (or is it Lucy and Edmund? - my books are still in Georgia) that they must look for him in their own world. I assumed that Susan didn't do that or deliberately stopped at some point.
And she does have an entire lifetime alone to find her way back to Aslan and Narnia.
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Weird Dag. We're on the same wavelength today or something - right before I read your post I was about to ask whether or not his writings about the Trinity were ever quoted.
Are you reading my mind?
*looks for tinfoil hat*
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quote:Weird Dag. We're on the same wavelength today or something - right before I read your post I was about to ask whether or not his writings about the Trinity were ever quoted.
It's the easy example, for sure. That's why I wen there first.
Plus, it's easier to pick a topic when the difference can be summed up succintly as "LDS don't believe in the Trinity" rather than try to articulate the differences between doctrines on the Fall and Original Sin.
quote:Are you reading my mind?
*looks for tinfoil hat*
Ow! When those rays get bounced back, it hurts!
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Question for any LDS who have read Perelandra: How do you view its take on the Fall?
In many ways, it's Lewis's deepest exploration through fiction of a specific Christian doctrine.
I am no scholar of other flavours of Christianity, but what Lewis assumes about the fall in that book seems to be what "everybody else" in Christianity believes about the fall -- that it's too bad it happened, and wouldn't it be great if it hadn't?
Because that book was so much about the fall, and the assumptions about it were so much in opposition to my beliefs, it was the book by him that I personally got the least out of.
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Gotcha. There are some pretty major theological differences.
I have read Perelandra, and it truly is very different than the LDS view. In fact, as I read the book, I often found myself saying, "Listen to Satan! He's right!"
We must be the only sect in the world (or at least the only one I've heard of in my somewhat-limited experience) who believe the fall was supposed to happen and that we are better off for it.
From LDS scripture, Moses 5:11
quote:11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
There are other LDS scriptures also that speak on the necessity of the fall.
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Thanks, Porter. That's about what I'd expect. Xenocide's ending had much the same effect on me - it was a worldview that just wasn't compatible with mine, and it was so integral to the plot, that it was almost jarring. (I know it's not based strictly on Mormon doctrine, but my understanding there's something about it that corresponds with some specific beliefs about spirits and the lack of creation ex nihilo.)
By the time CotM came out, I had reclassified the series in my mind. I still enjoyed them, and Speaker will probably remain my favorite SF novel of all time, but the series had moved from "this could happen" to "here's a very good story."
Whereas Tolkien's creation myth seemed very comfortable to me when I read it.
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Mrs. M, that was both brilliant and succinct as a summary. Bravura!
Kat, I do think I understand what you're getting at, especially with the Hermione thing. Gives you a sort of reader-whiplash when you think about it.
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Wow, I need to reread Peralandra, but I remember it being incredibly powerful for me. I didn't buy all the "just bypass the Fall and we'll all be better off" stuff, but some of the reasonings voiced in the conversations between Satan and Ransom were so amazing and actually helped me to better understand the doctrine that I believe.
I'm at work now, so I can't find the spots, but I'll post some passages later so you don't think I'm crazy. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I was actually far more taken with the "accepting the wave God sends you" theme - mainly because it's something I struggle with daily and requires immense faith.
But I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Narnia.
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Ew. Jim snot. *pat pat* I love that part too.
I'll definitely dig out my book (that Annie got me for Christmas 2 years ago) and post some stuff. We'll have a discussion and totally hijack Beren's thread. I love that.
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The underlying beliefs are still very different, Scott, at least as people here have presented Mormon doctrines.
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First off, I would like to thank both Dag and Kat for continuing this conversation, although with a few fits and starts to be sure. Religion, and if we are discussing Narnia we are touching upon religion for sure, is a VERY touchy subject at times, and I think I can understand why people have a tough time discussing it frequently.
On to the Narnia part of it:
First I would like to say that I love the Narnia books, despite their flaws. I know that some of the flaws were deliberate, most often because he was using the story to make a point, but overall it is one of my favorite stories.
I think that a story should be able to stand on it's own, for sure, but that when reviewing it's overall goals and judging if the author achieved those goals other sources can be very enlightening.
Since Narnia is an obvious allegorical story representing a basic Christian myth ( I use that phrase because it is a multi-denominatial story, rather than a story based on a specific "flavor" of Christianity) it is important, at least to me, to consider what the religion believes as well.
Most importantly the fact that it is NEVER too late to be redeemed. As long as there is life there is hope of redemption.
As far as I remember, Susan was alive and was fairly well when the story ended. Just because the story ended at a particular point doesn't mean that her life ended, or that she had lost all hope of achieving entry into the "true" Narnia. There are many examples of people who had redeemed themselves from far worse circumstances in these books.
She had chosen to take a pass at that point, though. It isn't a matter of lipstick, or budding sexuality, at least not to me...although it is an interesting concept, Kat, one I had not thought of before. It is a matter of turning her face from Narnia and Aslan, by deliberate choice.
Also I do believe that teens ARE shallow, a lot of the time...if they weren't then they would be adults. However, I know a lot of "adults" who are still shallow although they are long past the teen years. I don't believe that mentioning the fact that they are fairly shallow is a huge slam, nor do I think that being shallow is a irredeemable flaw, not in Narnia or here in the 'real world".
As a matter of fact, the largest point of the entire series is that EVERY flaw can be redeemed, no matter how large, by Aslan's grace, love, and sacrifice.
posted
Dagonee-- I don't see much difference in what I've read of Lewis' views on original sin and what I think of my religion. What differences do you see?
What I believe Mormons believe about original sin:
quote: Mosiah 3 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
This, to my reasoning, meshes with Lewis' statement (paraphrased) that it is not a matter of self-improvement: it is a matter of us being in a rebel camp and needing to lay down our arms and surrender to God.
Now-- unlike most Christianity (I think) Mormons believe the Fall of Adam and Eve was necessary to bring about God's greater purposes. CS Lewis seemed to sense the dualism about the whole matter, at least in the Narnia series; Aslan tells Diggory that he is a son of Adam, and that is glorious enough that the lowliest beggar should take pride in it, and degrading enough to make the mightiest, greatest king bow his head with shame. (Incidentally, 'Magician's Nephew' is my favorite of all the books. . . right now. )
How do you see Lewis' view on original sin, and how does it conflict with Mormonism as you understand it?
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It's interesting to me to hear about people reading Perelandra or Xenocide and suddenly being jolted out of their enjoyment of the book due to an excessive amount of doctrine they don't necessarily believe. Because that happens to me all the time.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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