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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The Teddy Roosevelt Moment or why I'll never vote for John McCain again (Page 2)

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Author Topic: The Teddy Roosevelt Moment or why I'll never vote for John McCain again
tern
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So it's okay to believe in things but not okay to want them to be taught? But wouldn't you want the things you believe taught? Otherwise, you don't really believe in them, do you?

What if in 1920, someone had said, of course So-and-so doesn't want evolution taught in schools because So-and-so isn't an idiot. Rings a little raw in these "enlightened" days, eh? But you just said essentially the same thing.

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Dagonee
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quote:
would add "or indoctrinated" to that disjunction, but other than that it has my full endorsement. Anyone who thinks that the scientific method needs to be subverted has something wrong with him/her that needs fixing. In my opinion.

Like I said, McCain might not be whoring, but if he's not then he's a neo-con. Which is probably worse.

The neo-con philosophy, such as it is, says pretty much nothing about ID.

The word has become mangled beyond all reason and usefulness at this point.

But neo-con philosophy has it's roots in foreign and economic policy. Social policy is generally tacked on, except for some bleed through from the general trust in use of force into criminal justice policies.

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tern
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quote:
but my intent was to accurately describe reality.
Whatever your intent may have been, and no one can judge it, your action was to describe your view of reality. Offensively.

I'm not necessarily an ID proponent, nor an evolution proponent...but there's a lot of worse things being taught in schools. The people who want these things to be taught and believe in them aren't idiots, or can't be proven to be idiots...they're likely wrong, which can apply to non-idiots as well.

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Destineer
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quote:
The neo-con philosophy, such as it is, says pretty much nothing about ID.
Yeah, I was more talking about his speech at the 04 Republican convention.

quote:
So it's okay to believe in things but not okay to want them to be taught?
Absolutely. I have many such beliefs.

I believe that there is no God, that gay marriage is A-OK, that couples who love each other should have sex before marriage... I don't want any of these things taught in schools.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Very few, and they've already been told by many other people on Hatrack that their belief is invalid.
Usually with some modicum of attempted politeness.

quote:
Were I concerned about engagin these people in debate or in changing their minds, I might try a milder tack, but my intent was to accurately describe reality.
With your psychic powers? Because you don't and can't know that McCain is whoring. Or do you mean "my opinion about what is reality?"

quote:
If you are saying that I shouldn't do that because people get upset when I do so, I'm afraid I can't agree with you. I find that idea repugnant.
There are dozens of ways to get your message out that are actually polite.
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tern
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quote:
I believe that there is no God, that gay marriage is A-OK, that couples who love each other should have sex before marriage... I don't want any of these things taught in schools.
They are, though.. [Smile] Apparently someone(s) believes in them strongly enough to have them taught.
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MrSquicky
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Bob,
TR was a bit of a war-monger. I certainly won't argue about that or defend it. However, he did a awful lot of great things and was the central figure of the Progressive movement. In his political career, he bucked the party and fought hard against corruption in the police and politcal aparatuses, such as the Civil Service. He worked - most famously with his "Square Deal" - against the excesses of rampaging capitalism, breaking up trusts, working for worker's rights, protecting the environment. He combatted prejudices against Jews, women, and Blacks. He also won the Nobel Peace Prize for brokering the peace in the Russo-Japanese War. I've already written about what he did after being President and why I admired that.

Besides all this, he brought an enormous deal of energy and integrity with him. He was truely a great man and a great president.

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MrSquicky
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tern,
quote:
So it's okay to believe in things but not okay to want them to be taught? But wouldn't you want the things you believe taught?
I didn't say that. In fact, I said close to the opposite of that. Read my quadratic equation in English class example.

I'm not saying don't teach ID in school. What I'm saying is that it has absolutely no place in a science class. I mentioned on one of the other ID threads that I believe that we should revamp the way we teach science into a comprehensive philosophy program that starts at 1st grade and ends when schooling does. If people actually understand what science was, we wouldn't need to have this silly ID = science debate.

But let's be clear. That is not what the ID movement is about. It's not even about teaching ID. There is no need to teach it. The people who believe in it already know it. The people who don't believe itknow about it too, but don't care. The point is to mark their territory as Christians and opponents to evolution.

---

On another tack, I don't believe that the things I believe that are most closely analogous to ID can be taught. I think that an attempt to do so would only pervert them. And leaving all that aside, it would be inappropriate to to teach them in a publicly funded school anyway.

One thing that many Christian activists don't seem to undertand is that part of the philosophical unpinnings of our nation is that it is not right to force your beliefs upon others. When people (many of them Christians) say that you're not allowed to use the public schools to indoctrinate kids into Christianity, they are upholding this principle, not attacking Christianity.

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Destineer
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I don't think there are many high schools where non-religious values are taught. I will grant that women's studies classes and the like at many colleges are aimed at liberal indoctrination.
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Rakeesh
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That's me! Pandering to public opinion, like always. Well, actually that's not true. Labelling John McCain a whore and calling people who believe in ID and that it should be taught in schools idiots had a lot more to do with it.

I know, I know, you didn't actually say any of that. I'm just childishly misrepresenting you via whining and pandering to public opinion.

I'll have to work on that.

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Megan
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quote:
Originally posted by tern:
quote:
I believe that there is no God, that gay marriage is A-OK, that couples who love each other should have sex before marriage... I don't want any of these things taught in schools.
They are, though.. [Smile] Apparently someone(s) believes in them strongly enough to have them taught.
Um. No, no, they're not, unless school has changed monumentally in the past ten years.
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MrSquicky
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And now, Jerry Falwell is apparently one of the good guys. Apparently, describing 9/11 as divine punishment for acceptance of homosexuals and feminists and praying for divine venegence againt the Dover school district for opposing the teaching of Creationist ID in science classes moves someone away from being an agent of intolerance. I would have thought the opposite. From Meet the Press:
quote:
MCCAIN: As regards to Rev. Falwell, which is the major thrust of your comments, I met with Rev. Falwell. He came to see me in Washington. We agreed to disagree on certain issues, and we agreed to move forward. I believe that speaking at Liberty University is no different from speaking at the New College or Ohio State University, all of which I’m speaking. I speak at a lot of colleges and universities. I’m pleased to have the opportunity to do so, to talk to young Americans and talk to them about the obligations and the privileges of freedom.

RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you were on here in 2000, I asked you about Jerry Falwell, and this is what you said:

MCCAIN (clip, 3/5/00): Gov. Bush swung far to the right and sought out the base support of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Those aren’t the ideas that I think are good for the Republican Party.

RUSSERT: Do you think that Jerry Falwell’s ideas are now good for the Republican Party?

MCCAIN: I believe that the “Christian Right” has a major role to play in the Republican Party. One reason is because they’re so active and their followers are. And I believe they have a right to be a part of our party. I don’t have to agree with everything they stand for, nor do I have to agree with everything that’s on the liberal side of the Republican Party. If we have to agree on every issue, we’re not a Republican Party. I believe in open and honest debate. Was I unhappy in the year 2000 that I lost the primary and there were some attacks on me that I thought was unfair? Of course. Should I get over it? Should I serve — can I serve the people of Arizona best by looking back in anger or moving forward?

RUSSERT: Do you believe that Jerry Falwell is still an agent of intolerance?

MCCAIN: No, I don’t. I think that Jerry Falwell can explain how his views on this program when you have him on.

From the Daily Show:
quote:
Jon Stewart: People who watch this show know, we love John McCain. He's one of our most frequent guests, one of our favorite figures in Washington, and I'm gonna tell you why: campaign finance, environmental law, budgetary overspending, Abu Ghraib scandal — issue after issue, Arizona's senior Senator has staked out his position, even at the expense of alienating conservatives. He's a maverick! He put it best himself in 2000 during his run for the White House: "Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton on the left, or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right." [John McCain, 2000-01-28] Yeah, boyeee! Agreed, and now McCain can tell Falwell that in person. He has agreed to give this year's commencement speech at Falwell's Liberty University. Plus, after criticizing what he said were the dirty tactics of the Bush campaign, he then turned around and hired two top Bush advisers to help with his own Presidential bid, plus he's been praising the President every chance he gets. [clips from various McCain speeches] "We should all of us keep our personal ambitions a distant second to standing with the President of the United States ... Stay behind the President on this ... The President of the United States did exactly the right thing ... He's our President, and the only one who needs our support today." I think somebody's angling for a nickname: [imitating Bush] I'm gonna call you Señor Likes-me-a-lot.

Has John McCain's Straight Talk Express been re-routed through Bullshittown? You know who we could ask — Senator John McCain! Senator, what's going on? I heard this crazy story that Senator John McCain is giving the commencement address at Jerry Falwell's university.

John McCain: Well, before I bring on my two attorneys, I'd like to, uh....

Stewart: Don't — don't make me love you.

McCain: I'd like to bring up a subject you should investigate. Actually, the reason I did it is because of the fact my kids said, "Why haven't you been on the Jon Stewart show lately?" and I figured that was the best way to do that.

Stewart: Senator! Are you really going down to Liberty and delivering the commencement?

McCain: I'm going to try to give these young people the same message I give to colleges and universities across the country, Jon, and that is, Serve a cause greater than your self-interest, Public service is good, Character is necessary. It'll be the same message I give across the country, and I'm going to invite you down because I want you sitting there next to Reverend Falwell when I give it. Might do you some good.

Stewart: Now, is that so if the Rapture happens during the speech, somebody could be there to clean up all the clothes?

McCain: Exactly, and not only that, I'm sure you have a lot of fans there at Liberty University.

Stewart: You're killin' me here. I feel like it's a condoning of Falwell's kind of crazymaking to some extent to have you go down there, and it strikes me as something you wouldn't normally do. Am I wrong about that?

McCain: Jon, I've spoken at a lot of schools, I've spoken to schools whose specific policies I may disagree with — Ivy League schools don't allow military recruiters, I don't agree with that. I'm going there to speak to the students at his invitation, and I can assure you that the message will be the same that I give everywhere.

Stewart: You don't think that it helps to sort of reassert Falwell as the voice for a certain group of people, say evangelicals or the Christian Right? Isn't it the kind of thing that maybe if you don't go there, it helps to keep marginalizing guys like that, or do I misunderstand politics? No? Maybe I misunderstand things.

McCain: Jon, I try to, as I said —

Stewart: Why do I feel like I'm about to get grounded?

McCain: Listen, I love coming on your show. Young people all over America watch it. I love to travel around the country and speak at colleges and universities. Look — they're all parts of the Republican Party. I respect them; I may disagree, and I'm sure that I've had disagreements with them. I'm not going to change —

Stewart: You're not freaking out on us? Are you freaking out on us? Because if you're freaking out and you're going into the crazy base world — are you going into crazy base world?

McCain: I'm afraid so.

Stewart: All right, sir. You know we have great regard for you here, and I hope you know what you're doing there, I trust that you do. When you see Falwell, do you feel nervous, do you have vomit in the back of your throat — what does it feel like?

McCain: No, but I'll give him your love.


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Lyrhawn
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Depends on what he has to say at Liberty. If he goes there and panders, I'd call him a sell out, but if he goes there and says things they may not necessarily want to here, but things that McCain stands for anyway, then I'd say it's one of the bold 'maverick' moves that he is known for. Or rather, was known for.
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