posted
Oh boy. I think Lisa may be in here to clear up some 10 commandment errors in translation here.
From what I remember, she mentioned, "Thou shall not kill" is actually "Thou shall not murder a human being," if translated better. Also something about "Thou shall not steal" referring to stealing humans/kidnapping. I don't know as much about Judaism as I would like (although I'm learning more all the time from rivka, tante, and lisa) but are the so-called 10 commandments actually considered seperate from the rest of the rules? I thought it was all just sort of "The Law."
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I don't understand why someone would do something just because God said so without any other reason being given.
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I think that's a key component of faith, following without an explanation of why you should. After all, if you're doing it because it makes sense then you don't really need God in the equation; you'd have done it on your own.
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quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: I don't understand why someone would do something just because God said so without any other reason being given.
Hey, if it were anyone else bossing me around without a good reason, I'd balk. But I make a special exception when the bossing around is coming from G'd. He's entitled.
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quote:I understand that you were replying to pfresh's question about tea, but those two sentences very much read to me that you're saying you only drink hot drinks for medicinal purposes.
Well, obviously, I should have worded it more clearly. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan, if you believe that God is in fact the Creator of the Universe, and yet that He has made a great Self-sacrifice for all mankind, so that you personally can have a way out and be brought into the heavenly kingdom where everything is the way it should be, you might feel a sense of awe and gratitude that would lead you to do what He says. Not only do we have confidence that God really intends the very best for us, we also believe that God is supremely wise, so He really knows what is best.
When we reach Heaven, and are allowed to peruse at our leisure all the records of Heaven, and see everything that was going on, we will agree then that God led us in exactly the way we would have chosen ourselves to be led.
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There is a difference between having confidence and in God and having confidence in those that interpret God.
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quote: When we reach Heaven, and are allowed to peruse at our leisure all the records of Heaven, and see everything that was going on, we will agree then that God led us in exactly the way we would have chosen ourselves to be led.
I have to confess that I have this hysterical mental image of somebody getting to peruse the records of Heaven at his leisure and, after auditing the books, finding at least a dozen things that could have been done better. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan, if you believe that God is in fact the Creator of the Universe, and yet that He has made a great Self-sacrifice for all mankind, so that you personally can have a way out and be brought into the heavenly kingdom where everything is the way it should be, you might feel a sense of awe and gratitude that would lead you to do what He says. Not only do we have confidence that God really intends the very best for us, we also believe that God is supremely wise, so He really knows what is best.
I really don't understand this way of thinking. I'm trying to put into words my objection to it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with something. The God of the Bible just feels wrong to me. I don't think a god deserves to be worshipped just because it is a god.
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RRR, I can try to explain how I feel about it. I'm very much in favor of questioning authority and thinking for myself, however, I learned to be that way from interacting with human authorities. They are quite often not very wise, and usually don't have our best interests at heart. Their rules are all too quick to make their own lives easier, and not meant for our good.
God is different, though. Not only is he vastly wiser than us, and enormously advanced spiritually, mentally, physically, intellectually, and every-other-ly above us, but he loves us totally, far more than we love ourselves. He has our best interests at heart way more than we do our own, even. I know this because I've put it to the test again and again. When I do what God asks, I always come out the winner, even when I didn't think I would up front. Even when I was sure it would be a great sacrifice.
Since I know this now, the only thing I really have to worry about is learning how to discern what is actually God's will for me from my misunderstandings, limitations, etc. Then, of course, I also have to conquer the natural me who still doesn't want to do what God says, even when I know he's right and I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just too lazy or craven and weak or something, for instance. I have to marshall my will and energy to actually put things into practice that I know would be good.
But really to understand you have to do it. You have to feel that strength flowing through you, the power of it, and the joy. You can try to understand up front, but really it takes actually trying. Maybe even trying and failing a few times. But relying on God's strength to help you suceed. And then you'll know.
I hope that helps explain, in some little way. Realize that it's a joyful thing, not a negative restrictive thing. It's like letting go of a burden, when you just follow God's will, regardless of anything. It's a feeling like flying. There's no chafing or constraint; I do it because it's fun and a privilege.
Obeying human authories, on the other hand, can sometimes make you feel dragged down and burdened past your ability to carry the load.
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." (Matt 11:28-29)
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I admit my statement you quoted was unintentionally false. I should have said what you said.
I figured it was unintentional. I just thought I should clarify -- there's been enough confusion in this thread, neh?
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:2. One who is bedridden or noticeably not functioning due to pain or illness may take any tablet or bitter-tasting medicine.
I don't know that 'bad headache' falls in this category, unless we're using the word 'bad' very differently. I guess I'm curious about where you draw the line. (the royal you, not you-rivka).
Perhaps you have never had a headache bad enough that it noticeably impaired your ability to function, but I have been so blessed. Defining choleh she'ein bo sakanah (which is the category #2 is referring to) -- literally, a person who is ill but whose health/life is not in danger -- is somewhat debatable. The way I learned to determine whether one falls into the category is as follows: if not taking the medication would mean you would feel the need to go to bed (whether or not that is currently possible), you qualify. I have had all too many headaches where even with the medication, I have to lie down until it kicks in.
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: I compared it with keeping Kosher because that can be explained scripturally . . .
Could you please elaborate on this point?
quote:Originally posted by scholar: I took a Jewish history class in college (taught by a non-Jewish prof) and he said that there is clear evidence that some elements (not all) of kosher were designed purely to separate the Jewish people from their neighbors. This idea of creating a unifying law, a "national" identity is another reason for the dietary laws. I think that this is a fairly good reason even if the health is not a factor.
No question that this is a big benefit. Rates of intermarriage are MUCH higher among those groups of Jews who do not keep kosher.
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: I don't understand why someone would do something just because God said so without any other reason being given.
We're even, because I do not understand why anyone would not. And He is not a god; He is the God. Creator of all, omniscient and omnipotent.
Doing what He tells us is Right. And on good days, I feel that rightness. (On bad days, nothing feels right, but I hang on and hope for a good day -- and if I do what I know to be right, one usually comes sooner than later.)
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I agree with rivka - I don't understand why someone wouldn't if they believed in Deity. He is God. As such, getting him P.O.ed is going to make your Eternity an endless misery. If you believe in Him than what He commands better be obeyed for your own good, if you care about your soul in any way. Believers follow God for two reasons simaltaniously. They Love Him and they Fear Him.
That isn't to say you aren't free to both believe and not do what He says. Plenty of people (too many I think) do this constantly. But, you better be prepared for the consiquences. In the end, those who deliberately rebel against God almost always end up athiest.
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To me it's not (at least not primarily) a question of "getting Him P.O.ed"; rather it's a question of Him knowing what is best for me.
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quote:So, how is Starbucks doing in Utah these days?
They recently built one in American Fork which is the second one in the state, IIRC.
quote:Well, given that the original restriction was on "hot drinks, by which I mean coffee and tea," I think the fact that iced tea is cold is a pretty relevant distinction.
I disagree. And since you don't believe in any of it, I'm at a loss to see why you care.
quote:I don't understand why someone would do something just because God said so without any other reason being given.
I think the reason is sometimes "I know that God understands what I do not, and I know he loves me, so if he tells me to do something, I know it's what's best for me."
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Rivka, I was just referring to the Bible calling some animals clean and some unclean.
I am not saying any of these beliefs are less relevant and I am not trying to insult anyone. I am just want to clarify and understand more than my limited experience.
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Ok, except "clean" and "unclean" are dreadful mistranslations of tahor and lo tahor. If the meaning of those words in English is what you are basing your understanding of the reasoning upon, I finally understand where you are coming from . . . and am even more convinced that you are wrong.
Sorry if that sounds harsh; I'm not coming up with a better way to put it. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:So, how is Starbucks doing in Utah these days?
They recently built one in American Fork which is the second one in the state, IIRC.
Second one in Utah County (the first one being in the Barnes & Noble in Orem), possibly, but not second in the state. There are a couple dozen in Salt Lake County.
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As for the "doing something just 'cause God says so," seems to me that God is saying, "Try this out. If you follow it, I will bless you. See if I don't." He certainly said that about tithing in Malachi 3.
I have always loved the parent-child metaphor for God-human relations. There are times when I cannot adequately explain to my child why they should or should not do something. As they gain experience and maturity, they eventually will understand. But that takes time.
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I thought it just meant that God created some animals ok for human consumption and some are not ok; not in the actual sense of needing soap and water. Many people who are trying to explain things in this thread are being a little harsh in my opinion actually. I appreciate the clarification in my misinterpretations since I am just trying to understand beliefs that are different from mine but I get the impression that some people are taking offense to my (and other people's) questions and misunderstandings.
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I am not offended; I do think your interpretation is based on a misunderstanding. Non-kosher animals are entirely edible, nor is there any reason (IMO) for non-Jews to avoid eating them. (Well, ok, maybe cholesterol, but that's true of many kosher animals as well. )
I apologize that I seem to have offended you.
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I don't think it is just you or the other posters in this thread. I think I am just easily offended lately and I am just frustrated at not understanding. But thanks for the apology Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Thanks, Anne Kate, rivka, Porter, and Beverly. Your posts have helped me to understand that a bit better.
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quote:I disagree. And since you don't believe in any of it, I'm at a loss to see why you care.
I don't care particularly deeply. But it seems to me that it's an issue of defined sets. If I said "I dislike large dogs, specifically Great Danes and collies," and you brought me a tiny little Great Dane, the odds will still be 50/50 that I might like it -- because the initial criteria for my dislike was the largeness. I AM very curious as to how and why the "iced tea" part of the "coffee and tea" restriction was added, and whether this would apply to iced tea that was never actually brewed (like Crystal Light).
quote:Well Tom, then you will get to travel back in time and fix them.
Incidentally, C.S. Lewis talked about how Christ's atonement would work so that God would 'forget all our sins and remember them no more.'
He stated that (and I apologize, I can't find a link for the actual text) when a person who falls within the power of Christ's atonement is judged, Christ's sacrifice will work backwards in time, and everything that was sin will be changed into an act of righteousness.
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quote:I believe that almost all restrictions on diet and behavior in modern religions are for this purpose.
The Word of Wisdom became more strict right around the time that polygamy was banned. I don't think it is coincidence - I think that in both cases some, if not most, of the reason for both commandments was to make us a "peculiar" people and set us apart.
---
Anecdotal: Katie's practice: No coffee, no tea (including herbal), no drugs, no tobacco, wary about Atkins. Fine with caffeinated sodas as long as it isn't an addiction.
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I don't get religious dietary prohibitions. Of course God knows what's best for us, but I just can't conceive of a food being so bad for us that God has to give us a specific rule not to eat it.
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I don't get religious dietary prohibitions. Of course God knows what's best for us, but I just can't conceive of a food being so bad for us that God has to give us a specific rule not to eat it.
I can conceive of lots of foods being so bad that we shouldn't eat them, and we might not know better unless God said so.
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quote:Originally posted by beverly: As for the "doing something just 'cause God says so," seems to me that God is saying, "Try this out. If you follow it, I will bless you. See if I don't."
Yes. I believe that one of the reasons God asks for our obedience is that it is a means to build trust and deepen our relationship with Him. When we obey "just because God said so," we are blessed. Our obedience then becomes something more freely and joyfully given, because we have learned to trust God's laws.
There is an understanding that goes deeper than reason. It only comes from application of a principle; having lived a law for a lifetime, we understand it in our very marrow.
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Chocolate doesn't have cafienne in it. It's a slightly different chemical that does almost the same thing metabolically.
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quote:There is a persistent urban legend that Chocolate contains caffeine. It would seem that this rumor is based primarily on a confusion between two similar alkaloids: caffeine and Theobromine. Theobromine is the active ingredient in Chocolate and it occurs only in Cacao. The two stimulants are related and have a similar structures, but are very different chemicals with different properties, effects and origins. There are of course, some Chocolate products that have added caffeine, but it does not occur naturally in Chocolate.
Note that last sentence. Caffeine may be added to some chocolate products.
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It is, in fact, in many commercial chocolate products (although in small amounts). Moreover, theobromine and caffeine are very closely related. (Caffeine has three methyl groups; theobromine has hydrogens in the equivalent three spots.)
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Wikipedia says, "Chocolate also contains caffeine in significant amounts, though less than tea or coffee, according to careful scientific studies and despite a few websites which claim otherwise. Some chocolate products contain synthetic caffeine as an additive," but then, of course, it doesn't provide a source. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ron, I can't find "mushroom" associated with "black pepper" anywhere else online. I was wondering if you saw it elsewhere, too, or if that was the only site that associated it with "mushroom," "mold," or "fungus?"
I still keep finding discussion of the "oxidation/fermentation" process, just like for tea. I think I might email the webmaster of that page, just out of curiosity. Maybe they have a cite.
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When you get to this page, search on "black pepper"
Here is a pertinent excerpt:
quote:Christensen (1972), over a period of several years, examined 100 different samples of black pepper from all over the world. In dilution cultures of these samples, the number of fungus colonies in whole or ground black pepper averaged 52,000 per gram/black pepper and the upper range was over half a million per gram. These colonies were mostly of A. flavus, A. ochraceus and A. versicolor. All three species are known to be aflatoxin producers. Some samples of ground pepper were caked lightly with fungus mycelium when first opened in the laboratory and with time, a number of these became solidly caked with mycelium.
How heavily contaminated is 52,000 to 500,000 colonies of fungi, per gram? Lets make a comparison for what is acceptable levels of fungal colonies isolated in other food products at the time Christensen published his results. Wheat, for example, that is intended for milling into flour seldom contains no more than a few thousand colonies of fungi per gram of grain. If barley has as many as 10,000 colonies of the same kind of fungi per gram as in black pepper, it would be rejected for malting in beer making. If breakfast cereals or bread were as contaminated as black peppers, they would have so musty an odor and taste that they would be too revolting to eat. Apparently, the natural spicy odor and flavor of black, as well as white pepper are potent enough to conceal the taste and odor of these fungi. This is also true with many other spices.
quote:Chocolate doesn't have cafienne in it. It's a slightly different chemical that does almost the same thing metabolically.
Chocolate contains theobromine which is a close analog of caffeine as well as much lower levels of caffeine. An average cup of hot Cocoa contains 62 mg of theobromine and 4 mg of caffeine. For comparison, a cup of coffee contains between 50 to 150 mg of caffeine, a can of cola contains 55 - 65 mg of caffeine, and black tea contains 28 - 46 mg of caffeine. The ranges are wide because of different preparation techniques and varieties.
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quote:If barley has as many as 10,000 colonies of the same kind of fungi per gram as in black pepper, it would be rejected for malting in beer making. If breakfast cereals or bread were as contaminated as black peppers, they would have so musty an odor and taste that they would be too revolting to eat..
This doesn't seem to be a fair comparison since black pepper is consumed in much much smaller quantities than breakfast cereal.
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I am quite sceptical of Christian's results on fungal content of pepper seeing that the work is quite dated (1972) and has not been reproduced since then.
Below, for example, is the abstract from a 1984 which finds quite different results for the growth of aflatoxin producing fungi in black and white pepper.
quote:Appl Environ Microbiol. 1984 August; 48(2): 376–379. Aspergillus parasiticus growth and aflatoxin production on black and white pepper and the inhibitory action of their chemical constituents. M S Madhyastha and R V Bhat
Abstract Aspergillus parasiticus Speare NRRL 2999 growth and aflatoxin production in black and white pepper and the penetration of the fungus in black pepper corn over various incubation periods were studied. Also, the effects of piperine and pepper oil on growth and aflatoxin production were studied. Under laboratory conditions, black and white pepper supported aflatoxin production (62.5 and 44 ppb (ng/g), respectively) over 30 days of incubation. Fungal growth measured in terms of chitin was considerably less in white pepper than in black pepper. A histological study of black pepper corn showed the fungus penetrating up to the inner mesocarp and establishing itself in the middle mesocarp. Piperine and pepper oil were found to inhibit fungal growth and toxin production in a dose-dependent manner. Thus, both black and white pepper could be considered as poor substrates for fungal growth and aflatoxin production.
posted
Br'er Rabbit, the statement you quoted does not significantly contradict the one I quoted. The figures may be different, because of which particular samples the test was limited to, but the basic fact remains that black pepper is moldy. I also noted the clear statement that white pepper is less moldy than black pepper.
I have to comment on your apparent attempt to find fault with the report I quoted merely because the study was done in 1972. That may have been before you were born, but that does not mean 1972 was prehistoric times! For crying out loud, we landed on the Moon in 1969! Scientists were certainly competent in 1972 to make valid measurements such as those given in the quote I gave.
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Ron, the basic fact is that your initial statement about the source of black pepper is highly unlikely to be true.
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Ron, I think you have our Dr. Rabbit confused with someone else. She's a professor and a scientist, and she's female.
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Ron, Yes I know we landed on the moon in 1969, I watched it live. Do you do science yourself? There are several reasons to question the validity of the report and none of them have to do with whether or not people did competent science in 1972. Since the work was done 34 years ago, there has been substantial time for follow up work. I was curious to see what subsequent researchers found, so I did a search to see find people who had referenced the 1972 paper or had done follow up studies of any kind.
I didn't find anyone who has been able to reproduce those result, which suggests that those results are highly unlikely to be widely applicable. This isn't just because the work was done in 1972, it's because no one since then has made similar findings. What's more, the work I quoted found that both white and black pepper are poor substrates for fungal growth, which does indeed contradict the 1972 papers conclusions.
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You mean there is a Br'er Rabbit in addition to The Rabbit? Sorry for any confusion.
So black pepper is not a suitable substitute for agar. That does not prove it is not moldy. Remember that black pepper is processed in such a way that mold growth is encouraged.
Measuring the amount of mold on black pepper is not exactly rocket science! Come on, already!
In addition to a higher incidence of mold in black pepper, there are carcinogenic substances in it as well:
quote:Other chemicals in food found to be carcinogenic are: piperine, safrole, and terpenes (in black pepper), solanine (in the green skin of potatoes), and safrole (in some spices).
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Defining choleh she'ein bo sakanah (which is the category #2 is referring to) -- literally, a person who is ill but whose health/life is not in danger -- is somewhat debatable. The way I learned to determine whether one falls into the category is as follows: if not taking the medication would mean you would feel the need to go to bed (whether or not that is currently possible), you qualify. I have had all too many headaches where even with the medication, I have to lie down until it kicks in. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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